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08-21-2017, 02:20 PM
https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/8/21/16176940/report-trevor-siemian-has-been-named-the-denver-broncos-starting-quarterback

Tned
08-21-2017, 02:21 PM
Well, technically it's still speculation, as Klis and others say it's expected based on what they are hearing.

DenBronx
08-21-2017, 02:22 PM
10854

DenBronx
08-21-2017, 02:23 PM
Well, technically it's still speculation, as Klis and others say it's expected based on what they are hearing.

Worst hidden secret ever.

BroncoWave
08-21-2017, 02:25 PM
Yeah anyone with two functioning eyes and a brain could see this was going to happen after the 2 games so far.

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08-21-2017, 02:26 PM
Well, technically it's still speculation, as Klis and others say it's expected based on what they are hearing.
I wanted the scoop . . . :D

pnbronco
08-21-2017, 02:29 PM
I thought there was a press conference at 1:15???? I can't find anything yet. Are we just waiting?

Tned
08-21-2017, 02:30 PM
I thought there was a press conference at 1:15???? I can't find anything yet. Are we just waiting?

VJ is late, rumor has it he's telling Elway that if they don't announce TS, that VJ will walk.

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08-21-2017, 02:30 PM
I thought there was a press conference at 1:15???? I can't find anything yet. Are we just waiting?
They're waiting on VJ right now: http://tinyurl.com/yb3k7b3o

Tned
08-21-2017, 02:30 PM
10854

:salute: Ok, that's pretty good.

pnbronco
08-21-2017, 02:31 PM
It's on now....the Bronco web site.

Tned
08-21-2017, 02:32 PM
It's offical now.

Finally posted a link to live presser.

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1ypKdlLnWNjKW

slim
08-21-2017, 02:34 PM
I wanted the scoop . . . :D

Please, I posted this yesterday!!

Tned
08-21-2017, 02:35 PM
"Trevor gets no credit for his arm. Trevor has a great arm."

Suck it people.

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08-21-2017, 02:35 PM
"Trevor's got a GREAT arm" - VJ

Denver Native (Carol)
08-21-2017, 02:36 PM
VJ speaking now

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/BTV-Live-Coach-Vance-Joseph/99c50746-6b5d-45b6-a076-af7534881860

Tned
08-21-2017, 02:36 PM
Not that coach speak of "he can make all the throws" or "he can make any throw we ask him to" he said he has a great arm and doesn't get credit for that.

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08-21-2017, 02:36 PM
"Trevor gets no credit for his arm. Trevor has a great arm."

Suck it people.
Wow, you can type fast!

NightTerror218
08-21-2017, 02:38 PM
Wow, you can type fast!

Prob voice to text.

Tned
08-21-2017, 02:40 PM
"Trevor gets no credit for his arm talent." VJ goes there again.

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08-21-2017, 02:46 PM
Here's Andrew Mason's article on it: http://tinyurl.com/yadjgm9m

Denver Native (Carol)
08-21-2017, 02:50 PM
Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 2m

Vance Joseph: "In my opinion, we have two quarterbacks. Most teams can't say that and I truly believe that."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 2m

Vance Joseph said Jamaal Charles will play "a lot" against Green Bay. This is his one shot. Won't play in fourth preseason game.

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 4m

Ron Leary will stay at RG.

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 4m

Vance Joseph also said Garett Bolles will be their starting LT.

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 4m

Vance Joseph said the Broncos will carry only two QBs on roster.

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 6m

Trevor Siemian will play the first half vs. Green Bay. Paxton Lynch will play the second half probably, Vance Joseph said.

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 9m

Joseph: "There was separation, so it was time to make the decision for everyone."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 9m

Joseph: "It's a performance-based business. It's not based on potential."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 10m

(2/2) Joseph: "But I said the games were going to be an important piece and they were. And in my opinion, Trevor played better in the games"

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 10m

(1/2) Joseph: "It was close in my opinion probably mid-camp when Paxton was making huge strides fast."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 11m

Joseph: "I want Trevor to be himself. You know, Trevor gets no credit for being a guy with a great arm. He's got a GREAT arm."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 11m

Joseph on what's holding Lynch back: "What's holding him back is probably experience. It's tough to play QB in this league."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 12m

Joseph: "It was OUR decision. It wasn't solely mine."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 13m

Joseph: "Winning the job two years in a row, that's a tough deal."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 13m

Joseph: "(Trevor) was the clear-cut winner."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 13m

Joseph: "It's a huge deal to name a starter at any position. It's permanent. ... Trevor is the guy."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 14m

Joseph: "Trevor was more consistent with what we asked those guys to do as a starting quarterback."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 14m

Joseph: "I was pleased with both, but the operation of the entire offense -- decision-making, ball-placement--was more consistent w/ Trevor"

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 15m

Vance Joseph: "After a long battle, we've decided on making Trevor Siemian our quarterback."

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08-21-2017, 02:52 PM
VJ said Garcia and Barbre are still in a duel. I don't know why. Garcia was beaten like a three-egg omelet Saturday.

Tned
08-21-2017, 02:56 PM
Prob voice to text.

15 word per minute. Yea, man!!!

Tned
08-21-2017, 02:57 PM
VJ said Garcia and Barbre are still in a duel. I don't know why. Garcia was beaten like a three-egg omelet Saturday.

And last Thursday.

Joel
08-21-2017, 03:02 PM
"Trevor gets no credit for his arm. Trevor has a great arm."

Suck it people.
You misspelled "world." ;) Don't feel bad though; occasional typos are an unavoidable hazard of high speed typing.

iLands
08-21-2017, 03:24 PM
I wonder if Manning has called him yet.

MOtorboat
08-21-2017, 03:37 PM
Andrew Mason says it probably a little less harshly than I would, so I'll just put his tweet here:

https://twitter.com/masedenver/status/899728396023812096

Tned
08-21-2017, 03:40 PM
Andrew Mason says it probably a little less harshly than I would, so I'll just put his tweet here:

https://twitter.com/masedenver/status/899728396023812096

Seems like a fair statement. He had a very good season as a first year starter, under poor conditions. It's absolutely correct to expect growth in the second year starting, especially if the line, RBs and scheme are better.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-21-2017, 03:40 PM
Joseph on QB decision: Trevor was more consistent
Head Coach Vance Joseph talks about what went into the team's decision to name Trevor Siemian the starting quarterback.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Joseph-on-QB-decision-Trevor-was-more-consistent/e7c9f446-80bc-4494-9f19-1fc6d75c77ca

BeefStew25
08-21-2017, 03:48 PM
If VJ's initials were VD, it would be more fun.

Slick
08-21-2017, 03:54 PM
I can barely contain my excitement.

Tned
08-21-2017, 04:01 PM
If VJ's initials were VD, it would be more fun.

That's what she didn't say.

Tned
08-21-2017, 04:01 PM
I can barely contain my excitement.

Sorry to hear that.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-21-2017, 04:07 PM
Trevor earned the starting job. I just hope he's not the same guy he was last year. Our offense was atrocious, even when the pass protection held up. If he tries to stick to the conservative "don't make mistakes" and "let the defense win the game" philosophy, we're an 8-8 team. This defense is still very good, but it isn't the defense that carried the team and won SB 50 anymore. The offense MUST produce. The QB MUST produce.

chazoe60
08-21-2017, 04:13 PM
T-Sim is gonna have a breakout season.

BroncoWave
08-21-2017, 04:14 PM
T-Sim is gonna have a breakout season.

He's gonna get herpes?

chazoe60
08-21-2017, 04:16 PM
He's gonna get herpes?

Not if you stay out of the locker room.

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08-21-2017, 04:24 PM
I can barely contain my excitement.
Depends.

Tned
08-21-2017, 04:29 PM
Credit to Lynch for getting up there and facing the media's questions. Never said Siemian won the job, but instead several times talked about it was the coaches decision and he will respect it.

Overall, a very classy and as upbeat as possible presser by Lynch. Showed a lot of maturity the way he handled that, IMO.

Said he was going to take every rep he gets and work to get better. It's not going to do any good to go pout in the corner over the decision, he's going to keep working to get better and help the team.

VonDoom
08-21-2017, 04:34 PM
Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 17m17 minutes ago

Trevor Siemian on if he can be a long-term starter in NFL: "I hope so. I think I can. I have a long ways to go."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 16m16 minutes ago

Siemian: "Honestly I think you have to compete for your job every day and every week. When I was here and watched Peyton, he wasn't content"

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 16m16 minutes ago

Siemian: "I got a shot coming in and for me that's all I needed."

Andrew Mason‏Verified account @MaseDenver 15m15 minutes ago

Trevor Siemian says he's reaching the point in the offense where he doesn't have to think -- he can just react & throw. Likes the scheme.

BroncoWave
08-21-2017, 04:45 PM
Depends.

I think you meant to type this in your shopping list.

Joel
08-21-2017, 04:58 PM
I can barely contain my excitement.Depends.
No, those are for containing excrement. ;)

Denver Native (Carol)
08-21-2017, 05:41 PM
Siemian: Made the most of opportunity to win starting job
Trevor Siemian talks about improving over the offseason and competing against himself in order to win the starting job.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Siemian-Made-the-most-of-opportunity-to-win-starting-job/01d0b09c-8e9e-454d-93d5-635c7bc5034d

Lynch: I gave it everything I had
Paxton Lynch talks about his approach moving forward now that Trevor Siemian has been named the starting QB.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Lynch-I-gave-it-everything-I-had/c9d08af2-0a2b-4819-a835-3e34aeccd68d

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08-21-2017, 05:55 PM
No, those are for containing excrement. ;)
All those big words . . .

7DnBrnc53
08-21-2017, 05:59 PM
Trevor earned the starting job. I just hope he's not the same guy he was last year. Our offense was atrocious, even when the pass protection held up. If he tries to stick to the conservative "don't make mistakes" and "let the defense win the game" philosophy, we're an 8-8 team. This defense is still very good, but it isn't the defense that carried the team and won SB 50 anymore. The offense MUST produce. The QB MUST produce.

Good points, except for Siemian earning the job. He won it by default again.

BroncoJoe
08-21-2017, 06:00 PM
Siemian: Made the most of opportunity to win starting job
Trevor Siemian talks about improving over the offseason and competing against himself in order to win the starting job.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Siemian-Made-the-most-of-opportunity-to-win-starting-job/01d0b09c-8e9e-454d-93d5-635c7bc5034d

Lynch: I gave it everything I had
Paxton Lynch talks about his approach moving forward now that Trevor Siemian has been named the starting QB.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Lynch-I-gave-it-everything-I-had/c9d08af2-0a2b-4819-a835-3e34aeccd68d

Is it just me? Paxton just rubs me the wrong way. I don't like him.

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08-21-2017, 06:04 PM
Good points, except for Siemian earning the job. He won it by default again.
Just about every post and article I've read and comment I've listened to said Siemian outplayed Lynch.

Where've you been?

Northman
08-21-2017, 06:10 PM
10854


Cant stop laughing at this.... lol

Poet
08-21-2017, 06:12 PM
Cant stop laughing at this.... lol

It hurt my soul.

Northman
08-21-2017, 06:16 PM
I can barely contain my excitement.

I know!!!!!! Isnt this great!!!!!

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kidzworld_photo/images/2015107/313eae2a-390d-41e8-b7e0-d320920d1104/tony-the-tiger.jpg

Northman
08-21-2017, 06:19 PM
Just about every post and article I've read and comment I've listened to said Siemian outplayed Lynch.

Where've you been?


I didnt even need to read any articles. Anyone who watched the last game could see the eclipse.

Northman
08-21-2017, 06:20 PM
It hurt my soul.

Well, its not Siemians fault that Lynch hasnt progressed. People can whine and complain all they want but Trevor is the best QB on this roster right now even if that means he is average. Lynch didnt show shit out there.

Poet
08-21-2017, 06:22 PM
Well, its not Siemians fault that Lynch hasnt progressed. People can whine and complain all they want but Trevor is the best QB on this roster right now even if that means he is average. Lynch didnt show shit out there.

I'm not mad at TS. I'm just saying...this is where we are. We here now. And it hurts my soul. Was hoping for the more talented guy to make more progress.

BroncoJoe
08-21-2017, 06:23 PM
I'm not mad at TS. I'm just saying...this is where we are. We here now. And it hurts my soul. Was hoping for the more talented guy to make more progress.

He did, and will continue to.

Poet
08-21-2017, 06:23 PM
He did.

:salute:

Tned
08-21-2017, 06:25 PM
Is it just me? Paxton just rubs me the wrong way. I don't like him.

I thought overall he handled the presser well and with good maturity, considering he just got bad news. Listening to him talk, I think he expected to be named starter. He said multiple times, three I think, that the coaches made a decision and he will respect it. However, in the context of the replies, it sounded like he thought he should have been named starter. For instance, I don't think he ever commented on Siemian playing well, winning the job, etc.

So, overall I think he handled myself well, but he also came off a bit entitled and think he should have given a nod to what Trevor did and not just he did enough to be the starter and will respect the coach's decision.

Tned
08-21-2017, 06:26 PM
I'm not mad at TS. I'm just saying...this is where we are. We here now. And it hurts my soul. Was hoping for the more talented guy to make more progress.

He has and he's the starting QB.

BroncoJoe
08-21-2017, 06:28 PM
I thought overall he handled the presser well and with good maturity, considering he just got bad news. Listening to him talk, I think he expected to be named starter. He said multiple times, three I think, that the coaches made a decision and he will respect it. However, in the context of the replies, it sounded like he thought he should have been named starter. For instance, I don't think he ever commented on Siemian playing well, winning the job, etc.

So, overall I think he handled myself well, but he also came off a bit entitled and think he should have given a nod to what Trevor did and not just he did enough to be the starter and will respect the coach's decision.

I think that's what bugged me. Trevor's presser was completely different. "I have areas I need to improve upon" - "We have a great team"

I get that Paxton can only answer the questions asked, but he just seems.... entitled.

Tned
08-21-2017, 06:31 PM
I think that's what bugged me. Trevor's presser was completely different. "I have areas I need to improve upon" - "We have a great team"

I get that Paxton can only answer the questions asked, but he just seems.... entitled.

Well, there's the wonderlic difference, Siemian went to Northwestern, tutored under Manning in the art of the presser. On balance, we should be happy that Lynch isn't just up their grunting and saying, "Omaha wuttt?"

Just kidding on that stuff, but yea, I agree, he comes off as entitled. Also, listening to some of the beat guys talking last week, last year he acted entitled as well. He wasn't putting in extra time, wasn't coming in early or late. They did say he's been much better and clearly working hard this year, where last year he acted like it was supposed to be handed to him.

Poet
08-21-2017, 06:32 PM
He has and he's the starting QB.

I'm not getting into it, but the word has a specific meaning in regards to football that is used by scouts, GMs, analysts, and it's not being used correctly here.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-21-2017, 06:53 PM
Peter King‏Verified account @SI_PeterKing

As Siemian beat out Lynch today, reminded that Cowboys were in mourning after missing out on '16 Lynch deal ... and settled for Dak.

BroncoWave
08-21-2017, 06:55 PM
Peter King‏Verified account @SI_PeterKing

As Siemian beat out Lynch today, reminded that Cowboys were in mourning after missing out on '16 Lynch deal ... and settled for Dak.

Don't remind me. :(

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08-21-2017, 06:56 PM
I'm not mad at TS. I'm just saying...this is where we are. We here now. And it hurts my soul. Was hoping for the more talented guy to make more progress.
So many seem to have the idea that Siemian won because Lynch is bad.

Has it occurred to anyone that Siemian might have won because he is good?

NightTerror218
08-21-2017, 06:57 PM
I'm not mad at TS. I'm just saying...this is where we are. We here now. And it hurts my soul. Was hoping for the more talented guy to make more progress.

Don't forget its a new offense for lynch and learning timing with starting WR. I think new offense is making him struggle.

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08-21-2017, 06:58 PM
Don't forget its a new offense for lynch and learning timing with starting WR. I think new offense is making him struggle.
Lynch is struggling because he presently has trouble reading defenses and checking down, that is, going through progressions . . .

Denver Native (Carol)
08-21-2017, 06:59 PM
Don't forget its a new offense for lynch and learning timing with starting WR. I think new offense is making him struggle.

It's also a new offense for Trevor

NightTerror218
08-21-2017, 07:00 PM
So many seem to have the idea that Siemian won because Lynch is bad.

Has it occurred to anyone that Siemian might have won because he is good?

If he did he would have been named starter sooner. Elway said he wanted to see a QB step up after 1st preseaso game. He did last game finally.

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08-21-2017, 07:02 PM
If he did he would have been named starter sooner. Elway said he wanted to see a QB step up after 1st preseaso game. He did last game finally.
Well, maybe Siemian didn't start sooner because Lynch has some talent of his own.

Or maybe because Lynch was the 1st round selection, and so they were giving him every opportunity to step up.

Or both.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-21-2017, 07:07 PM
Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck 5h

#Broncos Joseph "It was just getting right so not backpedaling. Trevor is the guy." @DenverChannel

Tned
08-21-2017, 07:11 PM
I'm not getting into it, but the word has a specific meaning in regards to football that is used by scouts, GMs, analysts, and it's not being used correctly here.

Yea, Rice and Mason were taking about fans like you.

Did it ever occur to you that the scouts may have gotten it wrong? As Mason said, if not for blowing out his knee, Siemian would have been invited to senior bowl and similar, and had a chance to work with NFL coaches and his stock would have risen heading into draft.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-21-2017, 07:39 PM
Nicki Jhabvala Retweeted
Jeff Legwold‏Verified account @Jeff_Legwold 1h
Replying to @SI_PeterKing

Will say Siemian's ability to win job w/two different staffs, two vastly different playbooks is under-valued. He'll be in league long time

Denver Native (Carol)
08-21-2017, 07:53 PM
An article posted on 8-29-16. Interesting in regards to Trevor's past.

http://gazette.com/paul-klee-trevor-siemian-one-wild-story-for-denver-broncos/article/1583961

MOtorboat
08-21-2017, 08:08 PM
https://twitter.com/cianaf/status/899777314829021184

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-21-2017, 08:09 PM
They're only keeping two quarterbacks? This could be an epically stupid decision. Sloter will get picked up by someone else. Cut Lynch and keep Sloter. There, I said it.

FanInAZ
08-21-2017, 08:15 PM
They're only keeping two quarterbacks? This could be an epically stupid decision. Sloter will get picked up by someone else. Cut Lynch and keep Sloter. There, I said it.

No, Denver always keeps 3 QBs & Sloter is on IR.

FanInAZ
08-21-2017, 08:17 PM
No, Denver always keeps 3 QBs & Sloter is on IR.

Oops, I meant the other guy is on IR.

BroncoWave
08-21-2017, 08:19 PM
No, Denver always keeps 3 QBs & Sloter is on IR.

Read the presser. VJ literally said they are only keeping 2. I'm guessing PS for Sloter.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-21-2017, 08:21 PM
Read the presser. VJ literally said they are only keeping 2. I'm guessing PS for Sloter.

Sloter will not make it to the practice squad.

BroncoWave
08-21-2017, 08:27 PM
Sloter will not make it to the practice squad.

Eh, I don't think teams will be jumping over each other to add an undrafted QB who has looked decent against scrubs. We'll see it guess. They could always change their mind and add him to the 53 if someone tries to pick him up.

Tned
08-21-2017, 08:28 PM
Sloter will not make it to the practice squad.

Don't be so sure. If he's claimed, he must go on their active roster. If not claimed, it will be Sloters choice to sign with Broncos practice squad or another teams.

Tned
08-21-2017, 08:33 PM
Eh, I don't think teams will be jumping over each other to add an undrafted QB who has looked decent against scrubs. We'll see it guess. They could always change their mind and add him to the 53 if someone tries to pick him up.

Everyone loves the third string QBs performance against scrubs.

Poet
08-21-2017, 08:37 PM
So many seem to have the idea that Siemian won because Lynch is bad.

Has it occurred to anyone that Siemian might have won because he is good?

The post you quoted is really, really, really misunderstood.

BroncoWave
08-21-2017, 08:39 PM
Everyone loves the third string QBs performance against scrubs.

I think they will for sure at least try to stash him on the PS, then if someone tries to claim him they will worry about whether to sign him or not at that point.

Poet
08-21-2017, 08:40 PM
Yea, Rice and Mason were taking about fans like you.

Did it ever occur to you that the scouts may have gotten it wrong? As Mason said, if not for blowing out his knee, Siemian would have been invited to senior bowl and similar, and had a chance to work with NFL coaches and his stock would have risen heading into draft.

Sigh. You always find a way to work in a little barb.

The scouts could have gotten it wrong on TS and right about PL, that is PL's physical talents were absurdly high. When Mike Mayock talked about PL, one of the things he brought up was that he was a guy who, if he reached his full potential, would be better than almost anyone else in the league, because that's how much innate ability he has. You yourself said you were rooting for PL because of his gifts, hoping that he would get the nod, or earn it, over TS.

What I'm saying is only controversial on this message board, and I don't know why.

Tned
08-21-2017, 08:41 PM
I think they will for sure at least try to stash him on the PS, then if someone tries to claim him they will worry about whether to sign him or not at that point.

Agreed

Poet
08-21-2017, 08:42 PM
At this point, I think Sloter might have something to him, but more importantly, the puns with his name is the real find.

aberdien
08-21-2017, 08:49 PM
Our quarterbacks suck

Tned
08-21-2017, 08:56 PM
Sigh. You always find a way to work in a little barb.

The scouts could have gotten it wrong on TS and right about PL, that is PL's physical talents were absurdly high. When Mike Mayock talked about PL, one of the things he brought up was that he was a guy who, if he reached his full potential, would be better than almost anyone else in the league, because that's how much innate ability he has. You yourself said you were rooting for PL because of his gifts, hoping that he would get the nod, or earn it, over TS.

What I'm saying is only controversial on this message board, and I don't know why.

No barb, they were talking about fans like you, who fail to acknowledge what Siemian has done and focus on his draft status rather than what he did on the field as a first year starter.

Yes, I was hoping Lynch would have been better and won the job, but my soul doesn't hurt, because I'm a Broncos fan and excited to see what Siemian and this team can do, since Siemian was clearly the better QB and had a very good first year, better than many highly touted first round picks.

Tned
08-21-2017, 08:56 PM
Our quarterbacks suck

Currently, only one does.

Poet
08-21-2017, 09:00 PM
No barb, they were talking about fans like you, who fail to acknowledge what Siemian has done and focus on his draft status rather than what he did on the field as a first year starter.

Yes, I was hoping Lynch would have been better and won the job, but my soul doesn't hurt, because I'm a Broncos fan and excited to see what Siemian and this team can do, since Siemian was clearly the better QB and had a very good first year, better than many highly touted first round picks.

But I am perfectly aware of what he did - and while we can slice and dice it a million different ways, I'm still aware. I missed one game last year.

The soul being hurt comment was in regards to having a first rounder thus far not live up to it. There's no magical fan interpretation. I'm not excited to see what TS can do, but I'm excited for the season. I'm hoping that TS turns into the best QB ever. I'm hoping, more realistically, that he's going to be a legitimately great QB. TS was the better QB - but in regards to what he did last year, he was ranked in the high 20's for production. And while some of those raw numbers were higher than highly touted picks, a lot of those picks he was compared to played in less friendly passing rules.

I hope he's going to be a stud. Or, I hope that he's going to turn into an above average QB. Whatever the actual best case scenario is for him, I hope that comes to fruition. And yeah, it would be great if he played so well this year that we don't have to even care about PL anymore.

aberdien
08-21-2017, 09:05 PM
Currently, only one does.

Unfortunately one of them has to start.

topscribe
08-21-2017, 09:12 PM
Siemian . . . had a very good first year, better than many highly touted first round picks.
Behind a porous O-line, with an inept running game, without a good slot receiver or much help
from the TEs, and playing with injuries to his foot and his shoulder, the latter which required
surgery following the season.

(I know I'm being redundant, but I think it's necessary.)

Nomad
08-21-2017, 09:25 PM
Lead the BRONCOS to wins, Trevor.

iLands
08-21-2017, 09:57 PM
Enjoy this hysterical article about Trevor: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insidenu.com/platform/amp/2014/8/8/5982581/trevor-siemian-northwestern-quarterback

Tned
08-21-2017, 10:07 PM
Behind a porous O-line, with an inept running game, without a good slot receiver or much help
from the TEs, and playing with injuries to his foot and his shoulder, the latter which required
surgery following the season.

(I know I'm being redundant, but I think it's necessary.)

He doesn't even need those qualifiers, because if we pretended he was completely healthy and behind a Cowboy's or Raiders level line, he would stack up well. Better than Carr I should add.

I went ahead and put together a comparison of Siemian to the other 44 QBs that had their first year starting in the last 10 years. Pretty ******* impressive.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/606702-Comparing-Siemian-s-first-year-to-other-first-years-since-2007

turftoad
08-21-2017, 10:46 PM
Unfortunately one of them has to start.

My feeling exactly! He's named the starter and people get all excited. He won the job over a project.
Not ready to appoint him the next John Elway by any means.
As a Bronco fan, I hope he's great. However, he hasn't done a hell of a lot and has much to prove.

NightTerror218
08-21-2017, 11:00 PM
Don't be so sure. If he's claimed, he must go on their active roster. If not claimed, it will be Sloters choice to sign with Broncos practice squad or another teams.

Undrafted almost never get claimed for that reason. But I think he will be PS, Kelly on IR and roll with 2 QBs.

topscribe
08-21-2017, 11:12 PM
He doesn't even need those qualifiers, because if we pretended he was completely healthy and behind a Cowboy's or Raiders level line, he would stack up well. Better than Carr I should add.

I went ahead and put together a comparison of Siemian to the other 44 QBs that had their first year starting in the last 10 years. Pretty ******* impressive.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/606702-Comparing-Siemian-s-first-year-to-other-first-years-since-2007
Yes, I saw that. Thanks.

I know TS doesn't need the qualifiers, but when I think of them, it really impresses me regarding what he accomplished despite them.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-21-2017, 11:17 PM
Everyone loves the third string QBs performance against scrubs.

He's better than Lynch.

Tned
08-21-2017, 11:28 PM
My feeling exactly! He's named the starter and people get all excited. He won the job over a project.
Not ready to appoint him the next John Elway by any means.
As a Bronco fan, I hope he's great. However, he hasn't done a hell of a lot and has much to prove.

He actually has done a lot. Being in the upper quartile of first year starters in virtually every major category used to rate QBs, is a heel of a lot.

Cugel
08-21-2017, 11:47 PM
Andrew Mason says it probably a little less harshly than I would, so I'll just put his tweet here:

https://twitter.com/masedenver/status/899728396023812096[/TWEET]


Well, it's true. "It's permanent" - Translating Coach Speech into real English: "it's permanent until the team starts losing. "If that happens all bets are off!"

If the team loses no jobs are safe. Especially not the starting QB.

Add in the fact that Trevor has never once started a full season - going back to high school. So, we're going to see Paxton whether we want to or not. Personally, I'm not looking forward to it.

But, Trevor being injury prone means we're going to see Paxton at some point this season. And, based on what we've seen so far, that is not going to be a good thing.

CoachChaz
08-22-2017, 09:20 AM
Is it too soon to start the "Stafford 2018" campaign??

turftoad
08-22-2017, 10:34 AM
He actually has done a lot. Being in the upper quartile of first year starters in virtually every major category used to rate QBs, is a heel of a lot.

I suppose we can look at any stats we want. I just see what I see on the field. He's good in between the 20's and not so hot inside the 20.

topscribe
08-22-2017, 10:52 AM
I suppose we can look at any stats we want. I just see what I see on the field. He's good in between the 20's and not so hot inside the 20.
You're taking his last year and making it the present. Don't you think it may be a good idea
to see what Trevor can do this year? Last year, he played behind a pitiful O-line with an
inept running game. You have to run to be successful in the RZ, unless you're Peyton
Manning in his prime, and there aren't many of those floating around. Even then, I'm sure
Peyton would tell you he'd rather have a running game down there.

Fact is, if you can't run in the RZ, you're not going to be successful there. This year, I'm
of the understanding they have a vastly improved running game. At least, they have what
is reputed to be better run blockers and a much deeper group of RBs. Let's see what TS
can do now with some real tools at his disposal.

VonDoom
08-22-2017, 10:52 AM
I suppose we can look at any stats we want. I just see what I see on the field. He's good in between the 20's and not so hot inside the 20.

Inefficiencies in the red zone were a hallmark of the Kubiak system historically. Let's see what he can do with McCoy calling the plays (that TD pass last game was a good place to start).

BigDaddyBronco
08-22-2017, 11:08 AM
He's better than Lynch.

Hell, Tebow was better than Lynch. :behindsofa: Better runner, better leader. Both can't read defenses or run a non-spread offense from under center.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-22-2017, 11:26 AM
I posted this in another thread, but will also post it here.

What Does Trevor Siemian's QB Victory Mean for Paxton Lynch?

This is Troy Renck talking in regards to what all happened during the QB competition which led to Trevor being named the starting QB.

http://broncos.vsporto.com/episode/23862/renck-and-file-what-does-trevor-siemians-qb-victory-mean-for-paxton-lynch/

FanInAZ
08-22-2017, 12:02 PM
Hell, Tebow was better than Lynch. :behindsofa: Better runner, better leader. Both can't read defenses or run a non-spread offense from under center.

At least Lynch understands that he's 1st & foremost a QB who's #1 job it is to throw the football. Although running with the ball may be the best option from time to time, its not supposed to be a QB's 1st option every time.

Tned
08-22-2017, 12:21 PM
I suppose we can look at any stats we want. I just see what I see on the field. He's good in between the 20's and not so hot inside the 20.

Less he and more we. The Broncos struggled in the red zone in 2015 with a hall of famer during a Super Bowl year, and scored TDs on 46.15% of their red zone trips. In 2016 they also struggled and scored TDs on 46.81% of their red zone trips with a first year starter.

I'm not sure we can hang that one completely on the inexperienced Siemian. That said, both Siemian, the running backs and coaches need to improve on the 2015/2016 redzone struggles.

NightTerror218
08-22-2017, 12:44 PM
Less he and more we. The Broncos struggled in the red zone in 2015 with a hall of famer during a Super Bowl year, and scored TDs on 46.15% of their red zone trips. In 2016 they also struggled and scored TDs on 46.81% of their red zone trips with a first year starter.

I'm not sure we can hang that one completely on the inexperienced Siemian. That said, both Siemian, the running backs and coaches need to improve on the 2015/2016 redzone struggles.

When you look at red zones stats Siemian was ranked 26th as a passer. Low completion percentage, low yards per pass and pass to td ratio was low. It is just an area he has to improve. Running game should help but being a more efficient red zone passer as well.

Canmore
08-22-2017, 12:48 PM
Less he and more we. The Broncos struggled in the red zone in 2015 with a hall of famer during a Super Bowl year, and scored TDs on 46.15% of their red zone trips. In 2016 they also struggled and scored TDs on 46.81% of their red zone trips with a first year starter.

I'm not sure we can hang that one completely on the inexperienced Siemian. That said, both Siemian, the running backs and coaches need to improve on the 2015/2016 redzone struggles.

Amen.

Hawgdriver
08-22-2017, 12:50 PM
When you look at red zones stats Siemian was ranked 26th as a passer. Low completion percentage, low yards per pass and pass to td ratio was low. It is just an area he has to improve. Running game should help but being a more efficient red zone passer as well.

Agree. This to me is the trait that defines 'elite qb'.

Tned
08-22-2017, 12:59 PM
When you look at red zones stats Siemian was ranked 26th as a passer. Low completion percentage, low yards per pass and pass to td ratio was low. It is just an area he has to improve. Running game should help but being a more efficient red zone passer as well.

It was on par with Manning/Osweiler the year before. Completion percent lower than Manning/Oz, but TD production similar. They had 13 TDs against 2 INTs in 16 games, he was 10 and 1 in 14.5 games.

I'm not discounting that he has to get better, I've agreed to that, but you have to agree that when it's a pattern that existed the year before with Manning/Oz, and the TD conversion in redzone was identical (slightly higher in '16), then you have to look beyond just the performance of the FIRST year starter.

dogfish
08-22-2017, 02:34 PM
i think we can all agree-- they just need to get janovitch more involved in the red zone offense. . . :D

dogfish
08-22-2017, 02:35 PM
They're only keeping two quarterbacks? This could be an epically stupid decision. Sloter will get picked up by someone else. Cut Lynch and keep Sloter. There, I said it.

sign me up. . .

dogfish
08-22-2017, 02:37 PM
Is it too soon to start the "Stafford 2018" campaign??

good to see ya, coach. . . you're too late to start it-- dapper danny's been driving that bandwagon around for a while now. . .

LawDog
08-22-2017, 03:39 PM
When you look at red zones stats Siemian was ranked 26th as a passer. Low completion percentage, low yards per pass and pass to td ratio was low. It is just an area he has to improve. Running game should help but being a more efficient red zone passer as well.

To be effective in the redzone you must have a balanced offensive with at least the threat of running it in. Without that the receivers are gonna be blanketed. You also need a big strong TE. Denver had neither balance nor a dominating TE last year.

BroncoJoe
08-22-2017, 03:57 PM
Sandy (puke) Clough had some interesting stats earlier today on 104.3:

Siemian was 7-1 when he threw less than 40 passes.

Siemian was 1-5 when he threw more than 40 passes.

Likewise, the bar for Elway (to get to similar stats from 91-98) was 33 pass attempts.

I don't know what, if anything that means. Just thought it was interesting.

NightTrainLayne
08-22-2017, 03:59 PM
Sandy (puke) Clough had some interesting stats earlier today on 104.3:

Siemian was 7-1 when he threw less than 40 passes.

Siemian was 1-5 when he threw more than 40 passes.

Likewise, the bar for Elway (to get to similar stats from 91-98) was 33 pass attempts.

I don't know what, if anything that means. Just thought it was interesting.


He's looking at the wrong metric, but he's close.

Siemian was forced to pass more often in games when our running game wasn't as effective. Pass more = run less.

In games where we couldn't establish the run game Siemian's record suffered considerably.

dogfish
08-22-2017, 04:09 PM
it's a chicken and egg kind of stat. . . do they lose more when they pass more-- or did they pass more because they were losing, and playing catch-up?

i mean the historical perspective, not last year. . . last year we were effectively a pass only offense after CJ went down, at least in terms of actually gaining yards. . .

Canmore
08-22-2017, 04:15 PM
Where are the Trevor Siemian jerseys on the official site? They dis him too?

Tned
08-22-2017, 04:19 PM
He's looking at the wrong metric, but he's close.

Siemian was forced to pass more often in games when our running game wasn't as effective. Pass more = run less.

In games where we couldn't establish the run game Siemian's record suffered considerably.


Sandy (puke) Clough had some interesting stats earlier today on 104.3:

Siemian was 7-1 when he threw less than 40 passes.

Siemian was 1-5 when he threw more than 40 passes.

Likewise, the bar for Elway (to get to similar stats from 91-98) was 33 pass attempts.

I don't know what, if anything that means. Just thought it was interesting.

Both of which will impact most QBs, especially young ones. There are obviously exceptions, both elite passers and offenses geared towards passers, but Siemian is not currently (maybe never will be) an elite passer and Kubiak's offenses have never been pass first.

In a Kubiak offense, no run success is almost a guarantee of no pass success.

I know he was a pure rookie, but I think we can all remember Big Ben's first year when he was often in the 20-25 pass range and maybe some that were less.

Prescott averaged 28 passes a game, Siemian 36 passes a game (assuming 13.5 games for Siemain, can't remember exactly when he got hurt in that game).

Tned
08-22-2017, 05:38 PM
Trevor to Paxton, "take your weak ass shit off my field, boy...."

10859

Denver Native (Carol)
08-22-2017, 05:46 PM
Where are the Trevor Siemian jerseys on the official site? They dis him too?

They have them here
http://www.nflshop.com/Trevor_Siemian_Denver_Broncos_Jerseys

Just checked - they are on the Broncos site

https://shop.denverbroncos.com/mens-nike-trevor-siemian-white-denver-broncos-game-jersey/p-35406603296504+z-9733-400148726

Canmore
08-22-2017, 06:06 PM
They have them here
http://www.nflshop.com/Trevor_Siemian_Denver_Broncos_Jerseys

Just checked - they are on the Broncos site

https://shop.denverbroncos.com/mens-nike-trevor-siemian-white-denver-broncos-game-jersey/p-35406603296504+z-9733-400148726

Thanks Carol. I checked a few hours ago and the weren't there.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-22-2017, 06:11 PM
Thanks Carol. I checked a few hours ago and the weren't there.

If you order one, click on Buy Broncos Gear at the top on Broncos Forums and do what it says, and a small percentage of that sale will come back to support Broncos Forums.

NightTerror218
08-22-2017, 06:44 PM
It was on par with Manning/Osweiler the year before. Completion percent lower than Manning/Oz, but TD production similar. They had 13 TDs against 2 INTs in 16 games, he was 10 and 1 in 14.5 games.

I'm not discounting that he has to get better, I've agreed to that, but you have to agree that when it's a pattern that existed the year before with Manning/Oz, and the TD conversion in redzone was identical (slightly higher in '16), then you have to look beyond just the performance of the FIRST year starter.

But our offense was carp that year and ranked low as well. Yes a first year starter but he was still no rookie. Oz dak kap wentz all were better passers in red zone last season that siemian. Manning/oz had higher completion percentage and averaged almost 1 more yard per pass.

Canmore
08-22-2017, 07:27 PM
If you order one, click on Buy Broncos Gear at the top on Broncos Forums and do what it says, and a small percentage of that sale will come back to support Broncos Forums.

Always do. Thanks!

Denver Native (Carol)
08-22-2017, 07:32 PM
McCaffrey On Broncos QB: ‘I Think Siemian Earned It’

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/08/22/ed-mccaffrey-denver-broncos-trevor-siemian/

topscribe
08-22-2017, 08:06 PM
But our offense was carp that year and ranked low as well. Yes a first year starter but he was still no rookie. Oz dak kap wentz all were better passers in red zone last season that siemian. Manning/oz had higher completion percentage and averaged almost 1 more yard per pass.
You don't become a bartender by sitting on the other side of the bar. You don't become a professional fighter
by sitting at ringside. Nor do you become a NFL quarterback by sitting and watching the quarterback play.
Watching the action is much different from being an active part of it. Experience comes with reps. For all
intents and purposes, Siemian was a rookie in his first year of play. Especially in being thrust into the role
as a starter.

Regarding red zone performance, you are not comparing apples. Every one of the QBs you mentioned had
a far better running game and better receiving TEs than Siemian. To be successful in the RZ, you have to be
able to run the ball down there. The Broncos were pathetic at that.

In short, you are off base on all counts.

BeefStew25
08-22-2017, 09:23 PM
Topscribe from the bottom rope!

Hawgdriver
08-22-2017, 09:23 PM
To be successful in the RZ, you have to be
able to run the ball down there.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2008.htm

Yeah, it's the sheriff, but so what?

My point is that you don't have to be able to run the ball down there if you have a QB that is exceptional at RZ ball placement and understanding of defenses or a great RZ receiving target.

topscribe
08-22-2017, 09:45 PM
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2008.htm

Yeah, it's the sheriff, but so what?

My point is that you don't have to be able to run the ball down there if you have a QB that is exceptional at RZ ball placement and understanding of defenses or a great RZ receiving target.
I did make an exception for Manning in another post. You're talking about probably the greatest
red zone quarterback in history, or at least he's in the argument. So, as I explained in the other
post, anybody not named Peyton Manning needs a running game. And that's not something I
thought up all by myself. Any knowledgeable coach will say the same thing -- and has.

And you mentioned a great RZ target. That means a good slot receiver and good receiving TE.
Denver had neither.

Hawgdriver
08-22-2017, 10:29 PM
So, as I explained in the other
post, anybody not named Peyton Manning needs a running game. And that's not something I
thought up all by myself. Any knowledgeable coach will say the same thing -- and has.

Would you also include Rodgers, Brees, and Brady in the list of QBs who can do it without a running game?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2011.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2011.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nor/2013.htm

topscribe
08-22-2017, 10:54 PM
Would you also include Rodgers, Brees, and Brady in the list of QBs who can do it without a running game?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2011.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2011.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nor/2013.htm
Okay, so now we've covered some of the greatest quarterbacks who ever played the game.
So Trevor just didn't measure up to them in his first year in the NFL. You won. This proves
he's terrible. :coffee:

Tned
08-22-2017, 10:57 PM
Okay, so now we've covered some of the greatest quarterbacks who ever played the game.
So Trevor just didn't measure up to them in his first year in the NFL. You won. This proves
he's terrible. :coffee:

Ruh roh, you pulled Mountains coffee mug on his ass...

aberdien
08-22-2017, 10:57 PM
Not terrible, just incredibly average, middle of the road, boring, unspectacular. The type that rarely quarterbacks a SB winning team.

topscribe
08-22-2017, 11:00 PM
Not terrible, just incredibly average, middle of the road, boring, unspectacular. The type that rarely quarterbacks a SB winning team.
You're right. First year QBs rarely win in the Super Bowl.

Such wisdom in this thread . . .

NightTerror218
08-22-2017, 11:39 PM
You don't become a bartender by sitting on the other side of the bar. You don't become a professional fighter
by sitting at ringside. Nor do you become a NFL quarterback by sitting and watching the quarterback play.
Watching the action is much different from being an active part of it. Experience comes with reps. For all
intents and purposes, Siemian was a rookie in his first year of play. Especially in being thrust into the role
as a starter.

Regarding red zone performance, you are not comparing apples. Every one of the QBs you mentioned had
a far better running game and better receiving TEs than Siemian. To be successful in the RZ, you have to be
able to run the ball down there. The Broncos were pathetic at that.

In short, you are off base on all counts.

You cherry pick arguments all you want. Stats that mentioned are a QB redzon efficiency. Siemian was ranked around #26 when it came to redzone efficiency. I was not talking about offense. Accuracy, yards per completion, how often he went for end zone for a TD.

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 12:07 AM
Okay, so now we've covered some of the greatest quarterbacks who ever played the game.
So Trevor just didn't measure up to them in his first year in the NFL. You won. This proves
he's terrible. :coffee:

No need to get grumpy and fabricate an argument on my behalf that I am comparing Siemian's first year to the crown jewel seasons of HOF caliber QBs as my point isn't far off from yours, but it's enough of a difference worth highlighting.

I agree that the run game requires outstanding QB play to overcome and still be a high-functioning offense. A great example is Roethlisberger's 2013 campaign:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2013.htm

Solid QB play, terrible run game, good defense, 8-8 season. As you say, it's difficult bordering on impossible to have a quality offense without the run game.

The difference I want to highlight is that the Broncos are not just looking for a guy that can operate a high-functioning offense if all components are in place, they are looking for the type of roster that finds consistent success in the postseason--championships. The QBs that I reference are among those guys and should be considered when describing what it means to measure up as a QB. When you say that a team needs a run game, period--which is what you said--you didn't allow that an elite QB can lift their team above that. Then you mentioned Manning, then you conceded the other elite QBs. Comparing Siemian's future to an elite QB is precisely what a FO should do since those QBs tend to win or offer their team the greatest opportunity for championships. Right?

If QB play and team performance falls short of those elite measures, as it does for 99% of other QB seasons with a poor run game, that doesn't mean Trevor should be replaced or is bad, etc. If he can be an Eli Manning or Roethlisberger, both of which can play an important role at times, and the team around them is solid, that's a win. Ideally he's be better than that.

The goal is to develop a championship roster, and that tends to include the type of QB play that can overcome a poor run game.

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 12:10 AM
You're right. First year QBs rarely win in the Super Bowl.

Such wisdom in this thread . . .

#irascible

Canmore
08-23-2017, 01:00 AM
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2008.htm

Yeah, it's the sheriff, but so what?

My point is that you don't have to be able to run the ball down there if you have a QB that is exceptional at RZ ball placement and understanding of defenses or a great RZ receiving target.

In 2013 we had five...FIVE red zone targets. Result? 55 TDs. We really know have one. Result? 18 TDs.

MOtorboat
08-23-2017, 01:09 AM
In 2013 we had five...FIVE red zone targets. Result? 55 TDs. We really know have one. Result? 18 TDs.

With all due respect Canmore, Peyton Manning is one of the top 5 quarterbacks to ever play this game. It shouldn't be hate to note that Trevor Siemian is not.

Trevor Siemian shares in the blame for the failures in the red zone. He must improve.

topscribe
08-23-2017, 01:19 AM
You cherry pick arguments all you want. Stats that mentioned are a QB redzon efficiency. Siemian was ranked around #26 when it came to redzone efficiency. I was not talking about offense. Accuracy, yards per completion, how often he went for end zone for a TD.



If you can show me when Siemian was out on the field all by himself, then we can agree that
he alone ranked #26 and the rest of the offense had nothing to do with it. But this is not golf or
tennis or chess. This is football. Eleven players are on the field at one time for each team. That
creates several factors to consider in the success or failure of a play or a set of plays.

But if we can't disagree without you getting your wires crossed, then, yes, it may be best if you and
I didn't discuss anything, I guess. :noidea:

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 01:25 AM
In 2013 we had five...FIVE red zone targets. Result? 55 TDs. We really know have one. Result? 18 TDs.

Can you explain this a bit more? You mean that in 2013 the ball was thrown five times targeting a receiver? Oh, I get it, it's 5 legit receiving options...yeah, but that's PFM, he turns hobos into pro bowlers. If that's the comparison, I don't know if I agree with the logic.

To be clear, it's unfair to compare 2016 Siemian with 2013 Manning. But at some point you compare Siemian to Manning, because you want the Manning as your QB.

Canmore
08-23-2017, 01:28 AM
No need to get grumpy and fabricate an argument on my behalf that I am comparing Siemian's first year to the crown jewel seasons of HOF caliber QBs as my point isn't far off from yours, but it's enough of a difference worth highlighting.

I agree that the run game requires outstanding QB play to overcome and still be a high-functioning offense. A great example is Roethlisberger's 2013 campaign:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2013.htm

Solid QB play, terrible run game, good defense, 8-8 season. As you say, it's difficult bordering on impossible to have a quality offense without the run game.

The difference I want to highlight is that the Broncos are not just looking for a guy that can operate a high-functioning offense if all components are in place, they are looking for the type of roster that finds consistent success in the postseason--championships. The QBs that I reference are among those guys and should be considered when describing what it means to measure up as a QB. When you say that a team needs a run game, period--which is what you said--you didn't allow that an elite QB can lift their team above that. Then you mentioned Manning, then you conceded the other elite QBs. Comparing Siemian's future to an elite QB is precisely what a FO should do since those QBs tend to win or offer their team the greatest opportunity for championships. Right?

If QB play and team performance falls short of those elite measures, as it does for 99% of other QB seasons with a poor run game, that doesn't mean Trevor should be replaced or is bad, etc. If he can be an Eli Manning or Roethlisberger, both of which can play an important role at times, and the team around them is solid, that's a win. Ideally he's be better than that.

The goal is to develop a championship roster, and that tends to include the type of QB play that can overcome a poor run game.

The jury is not even in deliberations.

I'm not a big poster, but I had a lot to say about Trevor Siemian...until he got hurt!...Silence!

I'm really excited about this season. I have bigger expectations than most on this board.

The million dollar question is can we win with Trevor Siemian?

I think so. I think he has ALL the tools! He can be better than that.

Canmore
08-23-2017, 01:33 AM
With all due respect Canmore, Peyton Manning is one of the top 5 quarterbacks to ever play this game. It shouldn't be hate to note that Trevor Siemian is not.

Trevor Siemian shares in the blame for the failures in the red zone. He must improve.

Have you heard anything less from me? I really don't remember making 'excuses' for our ineptitude in the red zone or sugar coating TS's play.

I agree. If he wants to be the man, he needs to BE the MAN. End of story. That includes Red Zone efficiency.

Canmore
08-23-2017, 01:39 AM
Can you explain this a bit more? You mean that in 2013 the ball was thrown five times targeting a receiver? Oh, I get it, it's 5 legit receiving options...yeah, but that's PFM, he turns hobos into pro bowlers. If that's the comparison, I don't know if I agree with the logic.

To be clear, it's unfair to compare 2016 Siemian with 2013 Manning. But at some point you compare Siemian to Manning, because you want the Manning as your QB.

We had three receiving targets 6'3'' or better, four receiving targets that were All Pro or Pro Bowlers or obviously both. What do we have now Hawg?

topscribe
08-23-2017, 01:42 AM
No need to get grumpy and fabricate an argument on my behalf that I am comparing Siemian's first year to the crown jewel seasons of HOF caliber QBs as my point isn't far off from yours, but it's enough of a difference worth highlighting.

I agree that the run game requires outstanding QB play to overcome and still be a high-functioning offense. A great example is Roethlisberger's 2013 campaign:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2013.htm

Solid QB play, terrible run game, good defense, 8-8 season. As you say, it's difficult bordering on impossible to have a quality offense without the run game.

The difference I want to highlight is that the Broncos are not just looking for a guy that can operate a high-functioning offense if all components are in place, they are looking for the type of roster that finds consistent success in the postseason--championships. The QBs that I reference are among those guys and should be considered when describing what it means to measure up as a QB. When you say that a team needs a run game, period--which is what you said--you didn't allow that an elite QB can lift their team above that. Then you mentioned Manning, then you conceded the other elite QBs. Comparing Siemian's future to an elite QB is precisely what a FO should do since those QBs tend to win or offer their team the greatest opportunity for championships. Right?

If QB play and team performance falls short of those elite measures, as it does for 99% of other QB seasons with a poor run game, that doesn't mean Trevor should be replaced or is bad, etc. If he can be an Eli Manning or Roethlisberger, both of which can play an important role at times, and the team around them is solid, that's a win. Ideally he's be better than that.

The goal is to develop a championship roster, and that tends to include the type of QB play that can overcome a poor run game.
No, not grumpy. Just pointing out the absurdity of bringing up the four best QBs of the last
two decades to prove a point about Trevor. Tned compared him to other first year players.
That's whom he should be compared to, not the elite QBs in their prime. Or at least
reference those players in their own respective first years. None of those QBs was a first
year player in 2011.

But football is a team game. You might have noticed that Elway never won a Super Bowl
until Terrell Davis came along. Even the greatest do better when they have a better
supporting cast.

The Broncos were #26 in the league in the red zone. The Broncos. Not just Siemian.
That is not to say Siemian does not share the responsibility. As Mo pointed out, he does.
He shares it, but he doesn't shoulder it. There are 11 men out there at a time.

I'm not alone in this. Vance Joseph talked about the importance of a running game in
the red zone a few weeks ago. He talked about how much more difficult the passing
game becomes down there because of the limited field space and how the running game
serves to open that up. So rather than to tell one player unrealistically to raise his game
to cover the deficiencies of the rest of the team, it is better to reduce some of those
deficiencies to improve the play of the entire team. This, hopefully, is what the Broncos
have done, which in turn will help to make the QB more effective.

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 01:43 AM
Siemian is better than he gets credit for, and too much is made of where he was taken in the draft. But he has to improve, and that's what you say when anyone on the roster isn't part of the championship solution. If I had to put money on a bet, I'd take the side that has Siemian disproving the doubters.

MOtorboat
08-23-2017, 01:47 AM
We had three receiving targets 6'3'' or better, four receiving targets that were All Pro or Pro Bowlers or obviously both. What do we have now Hawg?

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous. Is there really any doubt that Peyton Manning doesn't make Jordan Taylor an all-pro, just like he did with Julius Thomas? They have four guys who are 6-3 or taller who are going to see red zone touches this year. And Fowler has plenty of size, as well. If Butt comes back that makes four guys at 6-5 or taller.

DeMaryius Thomas is the shrimp at 6-3.

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 01:47 AM
We had three receiving targets 6'3'' or better, four receiving targets that were All Pro or Pro Bowlers or obviously both. What do we have now Hawg?

Oh man, I guess I should check the 2013 roster.

DT, Decker, JT, Welker, Moreno, Tamme

vs

DT, Sanders, ??, ??, ??, ??

Fair point buddy.

Canmore
08-23-2017, 01:47 AM
Siemian is better than he gets credit for, and too much is made of where he was taken in the draft. But he has to improve, and that's what you say when anyone on the roster isn't part of the championship solution. If I had to put money on a bet, I'd take the side that has Siemian disproving the doubters.

Hawg...that's where I'm at.

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 01:49 AM
I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous. Is there really any doubt that Peyton Manning doesn't make Jordan Taylor an all-pro, just like he did with Julius Thomas? They have four guys who are 6-3 or taller who are going to see red zone touches this year. And Fowler has plenty of size, as well. If Butt comes back that makes four guys at 6-5 or taller.

DeMaryius Thomas is the shrimp at 6-3.

No doubt about Taylor and probably Fowler too. I'd concede Booker and the TE position, although it at TE he might be able to get some juice from Derby.

Canmore
08-23-2017, 01:51 AM
I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous. Is there really any doubt that Peyton Manning doesn't make Jordan Taylor an all-pro, just like he did with Julius Thomas? They have four guys who are 6-3 or taller who are going to see red zone touches this year. And Fowler has plenty of size, as well. If Butt comes back that makes four guys at 6-5 or taller.

DeMaryius Thomas is the shrimp at 6-3.

Agreed...PM was god that year and he made everyone better. That is what he did. But do you honestly believe the roster we have is comparable? Sorry...don't see it.

MOtorboat
08-23-2017, 01:51 AM
No doubt about Taylor and probably Fowler too. I'd concede Booker and the TE position, although it at TE he might be able to get some juice from Derby.

Taylor, Green, Heuermann and Butt are all 6-5. Siemian shares in the responsibility for making those guys look good, and I'd say the burden is weighted much heavier toward the quarterback making that passing game look good than the receivers. It's tough to be one of the 32.

MOtorboat
08-23-2017, 01:53 AM
Agreed...PM was god that year and he made everyone better. That is what he did. But do you honestly believe the roster we have is comparable? Sorry...don't see it.

Denver's 1-2 at WR is better than it was then. Thomas is the same. Sanders > Decker. IMO. The TEs were better and the slot was better. I'll concede that, but Manning made that offense go, not the receivers.

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 01:56 AM
Denver's 1-2 at WR is better than it was then. Thomas is the same. Sanders > Decker. IMO. The TEs were better and the slot was better. I'll concede that, but Manning made that offense go, not the receivers.

You don't have these types of conversations when Manning is the QB.

MOtorboat
08-23-2017, 01:59 AM
You don't have these types of conversations when Manning is the QB.

Right.

Canmore
08-23-2017, 02:03 AM
Denver's 1-2 at WR is better than it was then. Thomas is the same. Sanders > Decker. IMO. The TEs were better and the slot was better. I'll concede that, but Manning made that offense go, not the receivers.

Sanders is better than Decker probably until you get to the 10 yard line. Then I'll take Decker.

Sure Manning made it go. He generally knew where he was going before the ball was snapped. More importantly, he understood where he was going next if he was wrong. The best part...he isn't phased by going through multiple reads. If not, throw it away and live to play again. This is why he was so fast in deciding where to go with the ball.

I'm seeing signs that TS gets it. I'm willing to ride with Trevor Siemian.

Canmore
08-23-2017, 02:05 AM
You don't have these types of conversations when Manning is the QB.

No you don't.

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 02:05 AM
No, not grumpy. Just pointing out the absurdity of bringing up the four best QBs of the last
two decades to prove a point about Trevor. Tned compared him to other first year players.
That's whom he should be compared to, not the elite QBs in their prime. Or at least
reference those players in their own respective first years. None of those QBs was a first
year player in 2011.

But football is a team game. You might have noticed that Elway never won a Super Bowl
until Terrell Davis came along. Even the greatest do better when they have a better
supporting cast.

The Broncos were #26 in the league in the red zone. The Broncos. Not just Siemian.
That is not to say Siemian does not share the responsibility. As Mo pointed out, he does.
He shares it, but he doesn't shoulder it. There are 11 men out there at a time.

I'm not alone in this. Vance Joseph talked about the importance of a running game in
the red zone a few weeks ago. He talked about how much more difficult the passing
game becomes down there because of the limited field space and how the running game
serves to open that up. So rather than to tell one player unrealistically to raise his game
to cover the deficiencies of the rest of the team, it is better to reduce some of those
deficiencies to improve the play of the entire team. This, hopefully, is what the Broncos
have done, which in turn will help to make the QB more effective.

Yes, it is unfair to compare Trevor's first year with QBs that have much more experience. That wasn't ever the debate, it was about needing a run game. In your mind it was in the context of explaining Trevor's first year, but in my mind it was just as stated in your post. No big.

Siemian should shoulder the responsibility. Not last year, the NFL is a big jump for just about any QB, but starting this year he should. At least in his own mind, because that's the disposition of the offensive leader. I get that there are 11 dudes.

Top, the bottom line is I get it. I've been saying what you and Tned are saying now about objectively measuring first year performance well before you guys took up the banner cry.

But at the same time the excuse making and qualifying drive me up the wall because I can't stand that mentality. I am going to hold my breath and wait for him to shut up his naysayers by showing he's a playoff and championship caliber type dude. Because that's something that actually has to be done before all the first year starter comparison stuff actually means squat.

In my gut I feel he's got the right stuff, but when half the message board says 'yawn', 'wake me up when he throws past the sticks', and so on, it means something. So let's see him prove it.

Canmore
08-23-2017, 02:08 AM
Yes, it is unfair to compare Trevor's first year with QBs that have much more experience. That wasn't ever the debate, it was about needing a run game. In your mind it was in the context of explaining Trevor's first year, but in my mind it was just as stated in your post. No big.

Siemian should shoulder the responsibility. Not last year, the NFL is a big jump for just about any QB, but starting this year he should. At least in his own mind, because that's the disposition of the offensive leader. I get that there are 11 dudes.

Top, the bottom line is I get it. I've been saying what you and Tned are saying now about objectively measuring first year performance well before you guys took up the banner cry.

But at the same time the excuse making and qualifying drive me up the wall because I can't stand that mentality. I am going to hold my breath and wait for him to shut up his naysayers by showing he's a playoff and championship caliber type dude. Because that's something that actually has to be done before all the first year starter comparison stuff actually means squat.

In my gut I feel he's got the right stuff, but when half the message board says 'yawn', 'wake me up when he throws past the sticks', and so on, it means something. So let's see him prove it.

Agreed.

iLands
08-23-2017, 03:36 AM
Taylor, Green, Heuermann and Butt are all 6-5. Siemian shares in the responsibility for making those guys look good, and I'd say the burden is weighted much heavier toward the quarterback making that passing game look good than the receivers. It's tough to be one of the 32.



Not even Peyton could make Virgil's hands soft. Love ya Virgil. Looking forward to your third contract.

Tned
08-23-2017, 06:34 AM
The goal is to develop a championship roster, and that tends to include the type of QB play that can overcome a poor run game.

Two thoughts:

One, as Elway said, QB's don't grow on trees. Broncos were very lucky to have Elway fall into their laps in '83 and make what most consider the greatest, and once in a lifetime, free agent QB signing. If you look at QBs they've drafted in 30 plus years, the best are Griese, Maddox and Culter. Cutler is the closest it gets to elite. So, while we we've created this idealized perfect QB in our heart that we want to see, they don't grow on treest.

Second, it's not just the running game, but the offensive scheme in general, the play calling, of course QB play. There are many things that come into play. How many RZ plays were wasted with failed runs, for instance? So, "not having a running game" can be far different between team A and B. For many years, the Pats didn't have a running game, but they didn't waste downs pretending they did, for instance. Instead, they ran short pass plays and such instead of running the ball.

I think we can all agree that the Broncos need improved red zone play, and Siemian is part of that, but we also can't ignore the fact that the Broncos had the exact same RZ success in '15 and '16, which points to scheme, play calling, etc. as much or more than QB.

Tned
08-23-2017, 06:44 AM
Siemian is better than he gets credit for, and too much is made of where he was taken in the draft. But he has to improve, and that's what you say when anyone on the roster isn't part of the championship solution. If I had to put money on a bet, I'd take the side that has Siemian disproving the doubters.

This is about where I sit. Siemian's performance has been underappreciated. Still, he must improve like any 2nd year starter (even more critical for a QB). I believe, but don't know, he will.

BigDaddyBronco
08-23-2017, 09:24 AM
Not terrible, just incredibly average, middle of the road, boring, unspectacular. The type that rarely quarterbacks a SB winning team.

Except for (since 1980) Jim Plunket, Jim McMahon, Mark Rypien, Phil Simms, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, and Joe Thiesmann.

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 09:38 AM
Half of BroncosForums be like Commodus, "what am I going to do with you. You simply won't...die."

GEM
08-23-2017, 12:49 PM
Yea, we don't get to have it both ways....suck for Luck style and complain at the same time that we can't let this defense go to waste.

It's the part of what we get to deal with being an upper echelon team year in and year out. Do I want more than Siemian, hell yes, I do. Can I have more than Siemian, apparently not. :laugh:

NightTerror218
08-23-2017, 01:54 PM
If you can show me when Siemian was out on the field all by himself, then we can agree that
he alone ranked #26 and the rest of the offense had nothing to do with it. But this is not golf or
tennis or chess. This is football. Eleven players are on the field at one time for each team. That
creates several factors to consider in the success or failure of a play or a set of plays.

But if we can't disagree without you getting your wires crossed, then, yes, it may be best if you and
I didn't discuss anything, I guess. :noidea:

If you want to ignore passing stats and blame a RB for impacting a QB accuracy or decision making go ahead. But the fact that Siemian avwraged 3 yards per pass in redzone. Completed 40% of passes. And prefered his check downs over end zone passes and receiving a low pass to 3rd ratio then ignore it all. But the fact that several rookies had higher 3rd passes, better yards per pass better completion percentage kills the he is basically a rookie argument because he is not. The running game forced him to have to pass more in redzone or need more yarda for a TD but did not impact his efficiency as a passer.

Long story short our red zone offense was horrible and all aspects need to be better. You can not blame running game and blocking for everything.

NightTerror218
08-23-2017, 02:04 PM
Two thoughts:

One, as Elway said, QB's don't grow on trees. Broncos were very lucky to have Elway fall into their laps in '83 and make what most consider the greatest, and once in a lifetime, free agent QB signing. If you look at QBs they've drafted in 30 plus years, the best are Griese, Maddox and Culter. Cutler is the closest it gets to elite. So, while we we've created this idealized perfect QB in our heart that we want to see, they don't grow on treest.

Second, it's not just the running game, but the offensive scheme in general, the play calling, of course QB play. There are many things that come into play. How many RZ plays were wasted with failed runs, for instance? So, "not having a running game" can be far different between team A and B. For many years, the Pats didn't have a running game, but they didn't waste downs pretending they did, for instance. Instead, they ran short pass plays and such instead of running the ball.

I think we can all agree that the Broncos need improved red zone play, and Siemian is part of that, but we also can't ignore the fact that the Broncos had the exact same RZ success in '15 and '16, which points to scheme, play calling, etc. as much or more than QB.

I 100% agree but what I pointed out before was that in those other years our QB was more effective, yards per pass and completion percentage. Point per game was less in 16 than 15 but red zone td was more in 16 than 15. But man no,g was also a shell,of himself in 15. Hard for me to,use that as example.

GEM
08-23-2017, 02:08 PM
Enough with the personal jabs back and forth. Move on.

Freyaka
08-23-2017, 02:13 PM
Is it too soon to start the "Stafford 2018" campaign??

Where have you been? I've name dropped stafford all offseason.

Tned
08-23-2017, 03:28 PM
Yea, we don't get to have it both ways....suck for Luck style and complain at the same time that we can't let this defense go to waste.

It's the part of what we get to deal with being an upper echelon team year in and year out. Do I want more than Siemian, hell yes, I do. Can I have more than Siemian, apparently not. :laugh:

So, what I think you're saying is that those that are a little more even keeled and analytical shouldn't overreact to those that might be a wee bit more of the emo types? ;)

Mike
08-23-2017, 04:03 PM
If you want to ignore passing stats and blame a RB for impacting a QB accuracy or decision making go ahead. But the fact that Siemian avwraged 3 yards per pass in redzone. Completed 40% of passes. And prefered his check downs over end zone passes and receiving a low pass to 3rd ratio then ignore it all. But the fact that several rookies had higher 3rd passes, better yards per pass better completion percentage kills the he is basically a rookie argument because he is not. The running game forced him to have to pass more in redzone or need more yarda for a TD but did not impact his efficiency as a passer.

Long story short our red zone offense was horrible and all aspects need to be better. You can not blame running game and blocking for everything.

And as has been stated, our offense was overall ineffective last year. The offensive style was ineffective all around. Denver didn't even have the right personnel to implement that style of offense anyway...which probably led to a lot of the struggles. That style of offense has had a history of bogging down in the red-zone. It happened during Shanahan's tenure with better players.

Denver had poor blocking, poor running game, poor TEs, and most of all, a poor offensive strategy. You can't assign blame on 1 individual when the cast (with exception of WRs) were rubbish. Has that changed this year? I don't know. But Trevor did decent for being a first year starter thrown into a bad situation.

If they fix all those things and Trevor still continues to struggle then we can only hope Elway addresses it in the offseason.

topscribe
08-23-2017, 04:07 PM
Yea, we don't get to have it both ways....suck for Luck style and complain at the same time that we can't let this defense go to waste.

It's the part of what we get to deal with being an upper echelon team year in and year out. Do I want more than Siemian, hell yes, I do. Can I have more than Siemian, apparently not. :laugh:
Hang on, classy lady. Trevor just might please you more than you think he will. :)

Tned
08-23-2017, 04:18 PM
If you want to ignore passing stats and blame a RB for impacting a QB accuracy or decision making go ahead. But the fact that Siemian avwraged 3 yards per pass in redzone. Completed 40% of passes. And prefered his check downs over end zone passes and receiving a low pass to 3rd ratio then ignore it all. But the fact that several rookies had higher 3rd passes, better yards per pass better completion percentage kills the he is basically a rookie argument because he is not. The running game forced him to have to pass more in redzone or need more yarda for a TD but did not impact his efficiency as a passer.

Long story short our red zone offense was horrible and all aspects need to be better. You can not blame running game and blocking for everything.

I don't have time to analyze it, but here are Siemian's (pass/sack/scramble) 65 redzone plays.

I couldn't get the formatting to work, so just created a PDF.

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/SiemianRedZone.pdf

Tned
08-23-2017, 04:22 PM
I 100% agree but what I pointed out before was that in those other years our QB was more effective, yards per pass and completion percentage. Point per game was less in 16 than 15 but red zone td was more in 16 than 15. But man no,g was also a shell,of himself in 15. Hard for me to,use that as example.

He was a shell, but also a HOF guy, but more important, since the RZ TD numbers are identical, you have to look at common threads to be at least part of the problem. Common thread is bad o-line and Kubiak scheme/play calling. No doubt that Siemian takes some of the blame, since if you line up under center, then you are responsible, but he can only play behind the O-line they give him, and be supported by the run game/play calling.

If there was a significant drop off in RZ TD production going from 15 to 16, then I think you could put more of the blame on TS, but there wasn't. It was identical.

Further, let's not look past the fact that the Broncos have currently replaced 3 of the 5 guys on the O-line, and might very well be replacing the fourth.

BeefStew25
08-23-2017, 04:28 PM
Hang on, classy lady. Trevor just might please you more than you think he will. :)

Watch and learn men. The pimp is here.

topscribe
08-23-2017, 04:29 PM
Watch and learn men. The pimp is here.
Sorry, Beef, but I don't have any openings right now. :coffee:

BeefStew25
08-23-2017, 04:34 PM
All your openings are full.

GEM
08-23-2017, 04:47 PM
So, what I think you're saying is that those that are a little more even keeled and analytical shouldn't overreact to those that might be a wee bit more of the emo types? ;)

I guess what I mean is we are what we are. We attempted to make better(Lynch) with what we were given(end of the round pick), but that hasn't worked out because qb's taken that late often times take time to develop. Time we don't have because the window of this defense is counting down.

When I thought we had a chance of a first round player being better than Siemian, I was harder on Siemian. Now that I know he's worse, well not much we can do, so Go Siemian. I just miss having a qb with some fire.

Tned
08-23-2017, 05:09 PM
I guess what I mean is we are what we are. We attempted to make better(Lynch) with what we were given(end of the round pick), but that hasn't worked out because qb's taken that late often times take time to develop. Time we don't have because the window of this defense is counting down.

When I thought we had a chance of a first round player being better than Siemian, I was harder on Siemian. Now that I know he's worse, well not much we can do, so Go Siemian. I just miss having a qb with some fire.

Well, I was joking on the previous post. Obviously, we don't see Siemian's first year the same way, but both agree we want to see more from him, the run game, o-line and play calling in his second year starting.

Freyaka
08-23-2017, 05:09 PM
Hang on, classy lady. Trevor just might please you more than you think he will. :)

It's not the strength of the arm that matters, it's how you use it :D

topscribe
08-23-2017, 05:16 PM
All your openings are full.
You've been peeping again . . .

Canmore
08-23-2017, 05:54 PM
I guess what I mean is we are what we are. We attempted to make better(Lynch) with what we were given(end of the round pick), but that hasn't worked out because qb's taken that late often times take time to develop. Time we don't have because the window of this defense is counting down.

When I thought we had a chance of a first round player being better than Siemian, I was harder on Siemian. Now that I know he's worse, well not much we can do, so Go Siemian. I just miss having a qb with some fire.

I love his demeanor. He throws a TD pass that's called back, so he fires a 19 yard TD to Sunshine on the next play. That's enough fire for me.

dogfish
08-23-2017, 07:00 PM
When I thought we had a chance of a first round player being better than Siemian, I was harder on Siemian. Now that I know he's worse, well not much we can do, so Go Siemian. I just miss having a qb with some fire.

he's not a show-off, but i think you're mistaken if you question the kid's guts. . . he went out there last year with zero NFL experience, and played most of the year with a banged up shoulder and knee, behind an absolute garbage line. . . with no running game, and he hung in there every week and took the hits-- and he never complained, and never pulled a fainting goat to avoid contact. . . you could tell from their quotes that the defensive guys respected him for that, if nothing else. . .

also, ain't nothin' wrong with a poised demeanor in your QB. . . guys like montana and tom shady are cold-blooded assassins. . . i'll take that over having my QB running around like nate webster, celebrating when we haven't won shit. . . i like level-headed just fine from my QB. . . granted, you also sometimes need a guy who will bark at a receiver if he runs the wrong route, and i don't know if trevor's that guy. . . still, we don't need him to be prime years manning or dan fouts, the large and in-charge field general just running shit like a boss. . . we more need him to be smart and efficient the majority of the time, which i think he can do. . . it'll be those select occasions when we do need him to step up and lead a drive to win it that determine whether he's actually a good quarterback, or a barely competent placeholder until we find the real guy. . . we'll get to see about that soon enough. . . i don't think he should be pegged as another orton just because he's quiet, though. . .

Tned
08-23-2017, 07:07 PM
he's not a show-off, but i think you're mistaken if you question the kid's guts. . . he went out there last year with zero NFL experience, and played most of the year with a banged up shoulder and knee, behind an absolute garbage line. . . with no running game, and he hung in there every week and took the hits-- and he never complained, and never pulled a fainting goat to avoid contact. . . you could tell from their quotes that the defensive guys respected him for that, if nothing else. . .


On MMQB today:



Like most young quarterbacks, Siemian sometimes struggles to process information from the pocket on time. That’s a problem when your arm is good but not great. But here’s the upside with Siemian: he’s tough in the pocket. He keeps his eyes downfield when big hits are looming, and he willingly steps into those throws. That’s a good foundation to build on.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/08/23/denver-broncos-training-camp-season-preview-vance-joseph-trevor-siemian-paxton-lynch-shane-ray

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 07:58 PM
On MMQB today:


Like most young quarterbacks, Siemian sometimes struggles to process information from the pocket on time. That’s a problem when your arm is good but not great.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/08/23/denver-broncos-training-camp-season-preview-vance-joseph-trevor-siemian-paxton-lynch-shane-ray

I agree, he's young and still processing, and his arm is good not great, but this analysis ignores Siemian's release. It's among the fastest ever. Since the interval between making the decision on where to throw and the ball arriving at the receiver's hands is release + air time, the 0.1s he surrenders in air to a Paxton type arm (or 0.05s to a Rodgers type arm) on a 30 yard in air throw is not as much of a factor if he is 5 hundredths of a second faster with his release.

Whatever..he just needs to get the job done.

Tned
08-23-2017, 08:17 PM
I agree, he's young and still processing, and his arm is good not great, but this analysis ignores Siemian's release. It's among the fastest ever. Since the interval between making the decision on where to throw and the ball arriving at the receiver's hands is release + air time, the 0.1s he surrenders in air to a Paxton type arm (or 0.05s to a Rodgers type arm) on a 30 yard in air throw is not as much of a factor if he is 5 hundredths of a second faster with his release.

Whatever..he just needs to get the job done.

I knew when I posted that, the good not great arm, would get brought up. Agreed that a quick decision can make up for a so/so arm, look at Manning. He never had a good arm, and it was horrible for most of his Broncos tenure.

That said, here's what Elway and Kubiak said when they surprised people by keeping him on the roster when getting down to 53. So, we have his current head coach (v. Joseph) talking about his arm, unbidden.

His previous head coach goes a step farther and says that his ARM was what attracted the Broncos. They didn't know if he could call plays in the huddle (didn't come from a pro offense), or handle the mental/leadership role, but they knew he had an arm. “I think I’ve said this every time we’ve been asked about him. We saw the arm. There was no doubt about the arm. "

On keeping three quarterbacks on the roster
“[QB] Trevor [Siemian] put himself on it. He came in and obviously he was not healthy. There was a concern how long could we go, but he was the one that did it. He worked really hard throughout the course of the summer off with the players. We came back and he was ready to go. He just continues to make progress. Every time he went on the field, he found a way to make plays. He’s a leader and a very confident young man. We feel very good about having the ability to get him late in the draft and have a player with that type of ability. He deserves the credit.”

On Siemian’s handling of the two-minute offense
“Just in general, watching him work against our ones in practice and running scout teams, he’s a very confident kid. There is not a throw he can’t make. I think the question was how much could he handle mentally and from what he did in college, how much could he progress. He’s handled that very, very well. Guys gravitate to him. You never know until leadership skills until a guy walks into the door. He has shown that. Hopefully, he’ll continue to that.”

On Siemian making the 53-man roster
“I think I’ve said this every time we’ve been asked about him. We saw the arm. There was no doubt about the arm. When you watch him throw the ball at Northwestern, some of the wind and trees are going sideways and he’s out there making throws all over the field. You knew that he had that ability. Now everything else, you’ve got to see, but he really came in and he’s adapted very well to the calling system, making long calls and other things he’s never been a part of. It’s really about his progress, but the physical skills, we knew they were there. With the knee coming along, would this be a long project situation? We didn’t know. He’s the one that made up the ground.”

On QB Trevor Siemian being on the roster
“We’re really excited about him. He played really well in the preseason. I think that this offseason, plus coming off of the knee surgery that he had last year and getting into training camp, the way that he played in the preseason, he did well and earned a spot.”

Tned
08-23-2017, 08:37 PM
Here's a couple quotes from rookie mini camp and a couple days into his rookie TC.

You might be thinking, why is T harping on this arm thing. Two reasons.

1. I think when you have two head coaches that completely unbidden talk about how great an arm is, and his first and the one that drafted him points to that as the REASON for drafting him, it kind of runs counter to the below average arm narrative.

2. What started me on this crusade, before VJ made the comments, before I found Kubiak's comments, was the reaction from other posters to my simple, and pretty obvious to me, contention that he has an above average arm. As I've said, not a Cutler/Elway/Lynch/Newton/Vick cannon (the list gets much shorter after those guys, but a few more), but definitely an above average arm.

I'm honestly surprised, because as a group, we are above average football fans, in terms of students of the game, so on this one, I don't get it. It seems that the many short plays, which were clearly dictated by scheme/lack of protection, and limited long passes, were evaluated as a weak arm. However, as students of the game, we know it's not that simple. All you have to do is look at his tight spirals, very low arc on short and intermediate balls, and perfect arch on long balls (among mere mortals, not the elways of the world), and it is very evident that putting zip on the ball is not his problem. I actually think that the fact his motion is so smooth and effortless, that people don't get a good sense of what he's doing.

Anywho:

Rookie Minicamp

On QB Trevor Siemian’s play today


“He wants to do more, but we knew kind of the plan ‘Greek’ (Head Athletic Trainer Steve Antonopulos) wanted him on. He’ll do individual stuff. He’ll do some 7-on-7. He’s impressive. He can throw it just like what we knew we were getting. We’ve got to get him totally healthy. Training camp will be that date. As far as the rest of the OTAs, he’ll probably continue to do what he did today.”


Early in TC:

On the progress of the quarterbacks


“Obviously, there is new stuff going on. There's a lot of new footwork going on for them. They've been almost exclusively shotgun for the few years those young kids have been here. That's a little bit different, but they can all move around. Our young kid missed a lot of time, [QB] Trevor [Siemian] with his knee, but I think he has the arm to play in this league and the brain to play in this league. We'll see. I like the work. We're doing some good things and have a lot of things we need to correct, but that's why we're here.”

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 08:58 PM
Agreed that a quick decision can make up for a so/so arm, look at Manning.

I'm talking about his release motion. What happens after the decision is made and before the ball is in flight.

Tned
08-23-2017, 10:00 PM
I'm talking about his release motion. What happens after the decision is made and before the ball is in flight.

You're right, read that but went right past it. SNF crew said something to the effect it was one of the fastest releases they had timed.

Canmore
08-23-2017, 10:20 PM
You're right, read that but went right past it. SNF crew said something to the effect it was one of the fastest releases they had timed.

Iirc they were talking about .25 to .28.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-23-2017, 10:21 PM
ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- Von Miller usually has a different view on quarterbacks.

The Denver Broncos linebacker is usually trying to wreck an offense’s plan and make football life as miserable as possible for the guy behind center.

But as winter turned to spring earlier this year, before the starting quarterback competition between Trevor Siemian and Paxton Lynch had become conversation for all ages in the Rocky Mountain region, Miller may have actually dropped a hint as to why Siemian eventually emerged the winner of the job for the second consecutive training camp.

“Trev, he just stays the same no matter what," Miller said early this year. “Everything happens around him and Trev just does his thing. I think if I sacked Trev, he would just look at you like nothing happened."

rest - http://www.espn.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/27571/why-trevor-siemian-won-broncos-starting-qb-job-again

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 10:22 PM
q3Lp7KGQrJw

Denver Native (Carol)
08-23-2017, 10:30 PM
Found the following online


Calvin Walker (Contractor)
Calvin Walker (Contractor)13 hours ago
Why do they keep mentioning that Trevor was a 7th rounder and oh wow he's automatically sorry. Give Lynch and Trevor some time. Both have a chance of being great in this league. Does everybody forget that Tom Brady was drafted #199 in the 6th round!!! He only got on the field because Drew Bledsoe blew out his knee. Look at Brady today... 5 SB rings.

Trevor will be great, not just good but great just watch. Did everybody forget that Denver was 5-0 before CJ Anderson went down for the season and lets admit it, Denver had the WORST OL IN ALL OF FOOTBALL last year and Trevor still threw for almost 4,000 yards. Paxton is NOT READY. But it doesn't mean he's a bust. Glad Trevor got the job. He deserved it.

Hawgdriver
08-23-2017, 10:32 PM
Iirc they were talking about .25 to .28.

Whatever time a QB saves by a quick release is just as important as time saved by faster ball velocity after release. It's probably more important.

Tned
08-23-2017, 10:32 PM
Iirc they were talking about .25 to .28.

Yea, and I wish I could find it. I don't have the game on my DVR anymore and gamepass won't let you fast forward. Maybe one of these days I'll play/listen in the background. I think it was on the NBC opener against the Panthers. I recall them saying it was one of the fastest releases they had ever timed.

When looking for that, I came across this from when he was in high school. I have no idea who/what this www.quarterbackacademy.com is, so have no idea if them saying it's the fastest they ever timed (at the time) is a big deal or not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Lp7KGQrJw

Tned
08-23-2017, 10:35 PM
q3Lp7KGQrJw

Bum

Denver Native (Carol)
08-23-2017, 10:47 PM
ENGLEWOOD, Colo. – What if I told you that you could have a quarterback who, in his first year as a starter, had a better passer rating than Cam Newton and Jameis Winston did, more yards than Russell Wilson and Joe Flacco did, more yards per attempt than Andrew Luck and Derek Carr did, more yards per game than Marcus Mariota and Dak Prescott did and more touchdowns than Carson Wentz and Teddy Bridgewater did?

You’d take him, right?

Well, Broncos fans, you got him.

That’s right, when you compare the 2016 stats of Trevor Siemian to every other first-year starter in the last decade, the Broncos’ quarterback ranks in the top third of just about any passing stat you can drum up. Ranking in the top 10 of many and in the top five of stats like yards per game, fourth-quarter comebacks and 300-yard games.

(See the full breakdown here)

rest - some good stuff here http://bsndenver.com/heres-the-thing-about-trevor-siemian/

Tned - just found this. Where this person, whoever he is, says see the full breakdown here, when you click on it, it is your breakdown on Broncos Forums

Tned
08-23-2017, 11:33 PM
Iirc they were talking about .25 to .28.

Ok, dog with a bone and all. Didn't think I would be able to sleep thinking about this dumb stat. 3 minutes to go in the first half of the Panthers game.

They timed him at .33. They said that was very fast and that they've been doing it for a while and .30 is about as fast as they ever timed.

Brady .39 according to Sport Science. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl7ZK3a0TkU

Luck .33 Sports Science https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK3HxoSk608

Rodgers .34 Sports Science https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYtXiYX_6ds

Obviously, we don't know if Sports Science and NBC are measuring the same, but considering he was measured just slightly quicker than in high school, I'm guessing his .33 is accurate and that they pretty much all measure basically the same, whether that's from fully **** or what.

Anyway, I think it's safe to say from a release time perspective, Siemian is right up there with some good company, which is what NBC was saying on the Thursday night game.

Hawgdriver
08-24-2017, 12:05 AM
Thanks.

Hawgdriver
08-24-2017, 12:07 AM
Tell you what, I'm going to be interested to see if his velocity is the same this year. I don't think that's something that can really make any jump, but he seems like the kind of guy that would seek that out. This is obviously a guy who takes his craft seriously and prepares well.

I hope someone taped Rex Ryan's interview when asked about Siemian and they play it for Trevor often.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-24-2017, 12:09 AM
Tell you what, I'm going to be interested to see if his velocity is the same this year. I don't think that's something that can really make any jump, but he seems like the kind of guy that would seek that out. This is obviously a guy who takes his craft seriously and prepares well.

I hope someone taped Rex Ryan's interview when asked about Siemian and they play it for Trevor often.

What did Rex say?

Hawgdriver
08-24-2017, 12:27 AM
Ok, dog with a bone and all. Didn't think I would be able to sleep thinking about this dumb stat.

It is a dumb stat, but at the same time it's something that happens every time a QB throws the ball with 5 DBs and X LBs etc looking at him waiting to jump the ball and win the game. The difference between a 61-63 mph radar arm like Lynch and a guy like Trevor who throws about 57-58mph (I did a lot of math and research to arrive at this number since there is no gun data on google, I'd put money that it's a good lower bound) is about 5 hundredths of a second for the 25-30 air-yard rope throws that are sometimes required during games.

I chose this 25-30 yards because that allowed me to normalize across quarterbacks when I timed and measured their throws on youtube.

Bottom line--if you are a 57-58 thrower like Siemian with a .33 release, you get the ball to the receiver at the same time, giving defenders the same challenge, as the 61-63 thrower like Lynch with a .38 release like Brady.

The arm stuff should be taken out back and shot. His stuff is as good as it needs to be to have a HOF career if the rest of his game permits.

Tned
08-24-2017, 12:28 AM
Tell you what, I'm going to be interested to see if his velocity is the same this year. I don't think that's something that can really make any jump, but he seems like the kind of guy that would seek that out. This is obviously a guy who takes his craft seriously and prepares well.

I hope someone taped Rex Ryan's interview when asked about Siemian and they play it for Trevor often.

If you go back and watch his first three games, his velocity is really good. Where it's really noticeable is on the 10-20 yard (air yards) throws. They arrive fast and almost dead flat. That takes velocity. His smooth motion is deceptive and makes it look like it isn't a hard thrown ball.

Hawgdriver
08-24-2017, 12:31 AM
What did Rex say?

Threw major shade on Siemian. Typical comments like journeyman, hack, etc.

And maybe he is. Ain't proved much yet.

Hawgdriver
08-24-2017, 12:35 AM
If you go back and watch his first three games, his velocity is really good. Where it's really noticeable is on the 10-20 yard (air yards) throws. They arrive fast and almost dead flat. That takes velocity. His smooth motion is deceptive and makes it look like it isn't a hard thrown ball.

Agreed. His average velocity on the 26 yarder I timed several times was 55 mph. That's over 1.05 seconds, and it comes out hot and cools down. So it's faster than 55 to start, and slows below 55 when caught. The football coefficient of drag is 0.05-0.06 meaning it's enough friction that it comes out at least a few mph faster than the average speed over the entire distance. A dude with a 57 mph arm can throw a damn good ball.

Canmore
08-24-2017, 01:11 AM
It is a dumb stat, but at the same time it's something that happens every time a QB throws the ball with 5 DBs and X LBs etc looking at him waiting to jump the ball and win the game. The difference between a 61-63 mph radar arm like Lynch and a guy like Trevor who throws about 57-58mph (I did a lot of math and research to arrive at this number since there is no gun data on google, I'd put money that it's a good lower bound) is about 5 hundredths of a second for the 25-30 air-yard rope throws that are sometimes required during games.

I chose this 25-30 yards because that allowed me to normalize across quarterbacks when I timed and measured their throws on youtube.

Bottom line--if you are a 57-58 thrower like Siemian with a .33 release, you get the ball to the receiver at the same time, giving defenders the same challenge, as the 61-63 thrower like Lynch with a .38 release like Brady.

The arm stuff should be taken out back and shot. His stuff is as good as it needs to be to have a HOF career if the rest of his game permits.

Nice work.

Tned
08-24-2017, 08:05 AM
Agreed. His average velocity on the 26 yarder I timed several times was 55 mph. That's over 1.05 seconds, and it comes out hot and cools down. So it's faster than 55 to start, and slows below 55 when caught. The football coefficient of drag is 0.05-0.06 meaning it's enough friction that it comes out at least a few mph faster than the average speed over the entire distance. A dude with a 57 mph arm can throw a damn good ball.

Obviously, it's an inexact science with anything other than a radar gun, which they've been using at the combine in recent years, but Siemian wouldn't have been clocked. Doing it after the fact with video, you have to accurately calculate the air yards, recognize there could be some video timing issues (which longer distances will help even out), deal with launch angle and other factors on longer throws (long throws help eliminate some aberrations, but is less accurate measure of actual arm strength/speed).

All that said, Kudos to you for trying to come up with some numbers (I saw where you posted it a while back).

A quick google shows things all over the place. At the combine, Kaepernik held the record at 59 MPH (I think Dysert hit that mark as well), until just recently an ____ Logan took the record with 60 MPH.

Other sites typically say that QBs throw the ball between 50-60 MPH. For instance during a sport science session, Brees threw the ball 52 MPH, but they speculated he slowed things down to focus on accuracy.

Slick
08-24-2017, 09:23 AM
I bet Kubiak has a shit eating grin on his face. His guy is still the starter.

Hawgdriver
08-24-2017, 10:09 AM
Obviously, it's an inexact science with anything other than a radar gun, which they've been using at the combine in recent years, but Siemian wouldn't have been clocked. Doing it after the fact with video, you have to accurately calculate the air yards, recognize there could be some video timing issues (which longer distances will help even out), deal with launch angle and other factors on longer throws (long throws help eliminate some aberrations, but is less accurate measure of actual arm strength/speed).

All that said, Kudos to you for trying to come up with some numbers (I saw where you posted it a while back).

A quick google shows things all over the place. At the combine, Kaepernik held the record at 59 MPH (I think Dysert hit that mark as well), until just recently an ____ Logan took the record with 60 MPH.

Other sites typically say that QBs throw the ball between 50-60 MPH. For instance during a sport science session, Brees threw the ball 52 MPH, but they speculated he slowed things down to focus on accuracy.

It's inexact but the margin of error isn't that much. Air yard calculations are accurate within a yard, timing is accurate to about 2-3 hundredths of a second (just increase number of measures to improve accuracy), and stick with ropes instead of anything with loft, if you do all this it's pretty easy to compare arms with credibility. A propagation of error analysis puts the final measure to accurate within 2 mph with high confidence. Radar is better but timing game film of ropes is a credible measure.

A rule of thumb is only draft guys with a 55+mph arm.

https://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2017/3/14/14920020/how-to-scout-a-quarterback-part-3-velocity-injuries

Cugel
08-24-2017, 11:16 AM
Quote Originally Posted by Hawgdriver View Post
It is a dumb stat, but at the same time it's something that happens every time a QB throws the ball with 5 DBs and X LBs etc looking at him waiting to jump the ball and win the game. The difference between a 61-63 mph radar arm like Lynch and a guy like Trevor who throws about 57-58mph (I did a lot of math and research to arrive at this number since there is no gun data on google, I'd put money that it's a good lower bound) is about 5 hundredths of a second for the 25-30 air-yard rope throws that are sometimes required during games.

I chose this 25-30 yards because that allowed me to normalize across quarterbacks when I timed and measured their throws on youtube.

Bottom line--if you are a 57-58 thrower like Siemian with a .33 release, you get the ball to the receiver at the same time, giving defenders the same challenge, as the 61-63 thrower like Lynch with a .38 release like Brady.

The arm stuff should be taken out back and shot. His stuff is as good as it needs to be to have a HOF career if the rest of his game permits.


:shocked: The coefficient of what?? :confused:

Tned
08-24-2017, 11:26 AM
It's inexact but the margin of error isn't that much. Air yard calculations are accurate within a yard, timing is accurate to about 2-3 hundredths of a second (just increase number of measures to improve accuracy), and stick with ropes instead of anything with loft, if you do all this it's pretty easy to compare arms with credibility. A propagation of error analysis puts the final measure to accurate within 2 mph with high confidence. Radar is better but timing game film of ropes is a credible measure.

A rule of thumb is only draft guys with a 55+mph arm.

https://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2017/3/14/14920020/how-to-scout-a-quarterback-part-3-velocity-injuries

All that hypotenuse and other triangle stuff hurts my head, so as you describe it, it makes sense. As long as you do a good job in getting close on air yards and use ropes, and then have several for each to address variations, it should certainly be good in relative terms, even if not exact terms.

Meaning, the radar gun at combines tells us that there are likely few QBs that throw faster than 60, so you probably are high on Lynch, but also probably high on Siemian, and the relative difference is likely accurate.

Hawgdriver
08-24-2017, 11:28 AM
:shocked: The coefficient of what?? :confused:

Took it from Belichek's science of football book. Some people must think it's worth the effort to be accurate about reality. Keep reading entrails, bro.

Hawgdriver
08-24-2017, 11:29 AM
All that hypotenuse and other triangle stuff hurts my head, so as you describe it, it makes sense. As long as you do a good job in getting close on air yards and use ropes, and then have several for each to address variations, it should certainly be good in relative terms, even if not exact terms.

Meaning, the radar gun at combines tells us that there are likely few QBs that throw faster than 60, so you probably are high on Lynch, but also probably high on Siemian, and the relative difference is likely accurate.

Lynch throws at ~60 per film, but 63.5 per radar on sports science or similar.

Tned
08-24-2017, 11:57 AM
Lynch throws at ~60 per film, but 63.5 per radar on sports science or similar.

Interesting, because from what I've read about the radar gun stats at combine (last 8 years or so they've been doing it), there has only been one to hit 60 mph.

Hawgdriver
08-24-2017, 12:15 PM
Interesting, because from what I've read about the radar gun stats at combine (last 8 years or so they've been doing it), there has only been one to hit 60 mph.

I'll do the legwork on this one.

Take 5, Tned.

Hawgdriver
08-24-2017, 12:17 PM
sX8IEe34zkk

~@0:10

Tned
08-24-2017, 12:18 PM
I'll do the legwork on this one.

Take 5, Tned.

I'm about to get in the car for a 2 hour drive for an appointment, so I'll check back later and see what you find... :D

Slick
08-25-2017, 04:15 PM
Chad Kelly makes more money than Trevor Siemian?

Nomad
08-25-2017, 04:23 PM
Chad Kelly makes more money than Trevor Siemian?

:suspicious:

Tned
08-25-2017, 04:32 PM
Chad Kelly makes more money than Trevor Siemian?

Siemian's salary this year is higher, but Kelly might make more overall if he got a signing bonus. Since he was drafted a couple years later, Kelly's total contract is a bit more, but both very low (in NFL terms) at around 2.4 million over four years (a bit less for Siemian and a bit more for Kelly).

Cugel
08-25-2017, 05:07 PM
Took it from Belichek's science of football book. Some people must think it's worth the effort to be accurate about reality. Keep reading entrails, bro.

Hey. I'm not going to apologize. That argument twisted my brain into a pretzel. I need a shot just to deal with the syntax.

Later: Nope. Still not helping.

GEM
08-25-2017, 05:20 PM
10885

For you, T! :D

Denver Native (Carol)
08-25-2017, 06:02 PM
One year ago Wednesday, Demaryius Thomas posted a reminder — a diamond-encrusted and yellow gold reminder — to one of his loudest critics. Cornerback Josh Norman was quoted in a story earlier in the year that Thomas “was supposed to be an all-world guy” and that Norman “shut him down in the Super Bowl.”

So Thomas snapped back on Twitter with an image of his Super Bowl 50 ring, so big it wrapped around his thumb, and the message: “Where yours at young fella??”

Thomas is eager to don another ring, maybe for his other thumb, and he believes a familiar offense and quarterback Trevor Siemian can guide the Broncos back to football’s biggest stage.

“I think so. Our main thing is taking care of the ball,” Thomas said. “We got a great defense, we got a great receiving corps, great offensive line, great running back crew. Trevor is going to take care of the ball and put us in the right spots. It’s just about everybody staying healthy and doing their part.”

Last week the Broncos named Siemian their starter after a lengthy competition with 2016 first-round pick Paxton Lynch. In two consecutive offseasons, each with a different coach and offense, Siemian has secured the starting job.

His latest win came of little surprise to Thomas.

“Paxton is still young, but he’s got the leadership in him. But Trevor is more outspoken in getting the guys together and get us doing the same thing,” Thomas said. “He started last year, he’s well-spoken, he’s a leader. Some guys expected it, but it was a good competition.”

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/25/demaryius-thomas-super-bowl-trevor-siemian-qb/

Tned
08-25-2017, 07:47 PM
listened to interview between Dave Logan and Bryan Griese. Griese was saying that no matter how many DTs and other skill players you have if your line is bad, you are not going to have any success. Said that the pressure Siemian endured was more than any QB should ever endure. Talked about the level of production being a first year starter and bad line play being impressive. Thinks Leary was biggest offseason pickup and expects the line to be better and the offense better as a result.

Hawgdriver
08-25-2017, 08:43 PM
listened to interview between Dave Logan and Bryan Griese. Griese was saying that no matter how many DTs and other skill players you have if your line is bad, you are not going to have any success. Said that the pressure Siemian endured was more than any QB should ever endure. Talked about the level of production being a first year starter and bad line play being impressive. Thinks Leary was biggest offseason pickup and expects the line to be better and the offense better as a result.

Seeing is believing.

Tned
08-25-2017, 08:51 PM
Seeing is believing.

They were on radio, I don't think there was any video of the interview.

Hawgdriver
08-25-2017, 09:01 PM
They were on radio, I don't think there was any video of the interview.

I mean about the O-line. I'll believe it's improved when I see it.

Tned
08-25-2017, 09:13 PM
I mean about the O-line. I'll believe it's improved when I see it.

You sure, because I might be able to see if they have a video podcast of the interview if you want to see the Griese interview.

Hawgdriver
08-25-2017, 10:45 PM
You sure, because I might be able to see if they have a video podcast of the interview if you want to see the Griese interview.

You said you would never run around and hurt me, Tned.

Tned
08-25-2017, 11:25 PM
You said you would never run around and hurt me, Tned.

It was the full moon that made me do it.