View Full Version : Why the visceral reactions to Siemian?
I've seen a lot of discussions, arguments and debate about quarterbacks over the years. I've seen QBs like Tebow and Plummer polarize the fan base.
However, I'm not sure I've ever seen such visceral, angry reactions to the degree or frequency as I'm seeing in reaction to Siemian. These are the types of reactions normally reserved politically discussions and figures.
So, why do you react so strongly to Siemian and anything that can remotely be seen as praise or a positive reporter for him?
Simple Jaded
08-11-2017, 12:25 AM
T you spelled "Lynch" wrong.
T you spelled "Lynch" wrong.
Very little lynch hate going around. Some concern about if he'll make it, but nothing like the angry reactions to Siemian.
Honestly, he bores the ever loving shit out of me. He's not watching paint dry Brady Quinn boring, but he is close. He's not nearly as bad as the fainting goat, which is a plus.
Simple Jaded
08-11-2017, 12:35 AM
Very little lynch hate going around. Some concern about if he'll make it, but nothing like the angry reactions to Siemian.
He's a bust after 15 months, it's visceral to you but it is to the 2 or 3 people that don't think he's a bust.
He's a bust after 15 months, it's visceral to you but it is to the 2 or 3 people that don't think he's a bust.
I have no idea what you just said or which QB you are referring to.
No way one can call a seventh rounder a bust. He has way exceeded expectations of his selection by making the team let alone his production last year
Myself, I prefer Lynch because of first round pick, bigger arm and more athletic.
I want the QBotF to win the job, which ever he is, but I'd prefer it to be a guy we invested heavily in.
That being said, Lynch didn't impress me tonight.
MOtorboat
08-11-2017, 01:02 AM
I don't see any visceral reactions to Siemian. At all.
Valar Morghulis
08-11-2017, 01:05 AM
It is an interesting question.... Especially because I dislike lynch so much, in part because he looks like a pirate, in part because of the way king goes on, but mainly because I see a bad mix of Brock and Tebow and just don't rate him.
I think I like the underdog story and therefore automatically dislike lynch.
Therefore, it's possible others are emotionally invested in the first round draft pick (and all that is associated with first round picks) and want elway to be right, as well as hope our qb play reaches manning/elway level again and don't trust a seventh rounder to get there.
It is definitely a weird psychological response to having choice.... If you have two qbs, you don't have a qb lol
Simple Jaded
08-11-2017, 01:06 AM
I have no idea what you just said or which QB you are referring to.
Lynch...he's already a bust...15 months into his career...it's kinda "visceral" to the 2 or 3 people here that don't think he's a bust...you wouldn't know because you have a hard time understanding almost everything.
Why am I always explaining shit to you?
tomjonesrocks
08-11-2017, 01:11 AM
I've seen a lot of discussions, arguments and debate about quarterbacks over the years. I've seen QBs like Tebow and Plummer polarize the fan base.
However, I'm not sure I've ever seen such visceral, angry reactions to the degree or frequency as I'm seeing in reaction to Siemian. These are the types of reactions normally reserved politically discussions and figures.
So, why do you react so strongly to Siemian and anything that can remotely be seen as praise or a positive reporter for him?
Is this local media? Or just forum members? I've been to Denver twice this year and listen to Denver radio occasionally and I'm not hearing anything overly negative or unfair.
My AP sports feed said Trevor was pulling away with the job. Al and DMac reported the same.
Simple Jaded
08-11-2017, 01:21 AM
Is this local media? Or just forum members? I've been to Denver twice this year and listen to Denver radio occasionally and I'm not hearing anything overly negative or unfair.
My AP sports feed said Trevor was pulling away with the job. Al and DMac reported the same.
TS is by far the favorite of local radio.
ShaneFalco
08-11-2017, 01:44 AM
TS will be a career qb, whether starter or backup.
That can come in and win you a few games, unless he takes his mental game to the next level and starts checking out of plays like Manning. His arm strength will only get him so far.
Lynch may not even be in the league for long if he plays like this. But again, we have to see him in the next game with the ones.
DenBronx
08-11-2017, 01:45 AM
Because it's the battle of mediocrity. No one is trying to take the spot by force. Trevor should be way ahead of Lynch but Lynch is hanging on by a thread. The gap isn't far and what is making fans mad is that it just seems like a battle of the backups.
We need something greater or at least one of these guys to step up their game.
If not, then we won't win the division.
Hawgdriver
08-11-2017, 01:57 AM
GEM pretty much nailed it, it's his playstyle. He's too conservative. You want a QB with a tremendous belief in his ability to make a difference, and Trevor playstyle is to avoid anything negative. QBs with that knack for believing they can go hero mode and win the game often do. It's the Aaron Rodgers effect. That dude just has it in his ******* mind that he *will* find a way to win the game. You don't see it in Siemian. Instead, you see a guy who is playing to avoid interceptions at all costs when another QB would be willing to shoulder the responsibility, take the reins and will his team to win.
It's hard to root for a guy that doesn't seem to believe in himself.
Bronco4ever
08-11-2017, 02:02 AM
Lynch hasn't impressed me since the Buccaneers game last year. He had a nice 2nd half in that game, but his next two starts were beyond putrid. I really lost a lot of confidence in him. Siemian had a lot of ups and downs last year, but he at least seemed competent leading the huddle and doing the little things. I've quietly been on team Siemian, but I realize our QB situation is less than ideal. If TS starts and can improve on last year's stats, I can get behind that.
ShaneFalco
08-11-2017, 02:03 AM
GEM pretty much nailed it, it's his playstyle. He's too conservative. You want a QB with a tremendous belief in his ability to make a difference, and Trevor playstyle is to avoid anything negative. QBs with that knack for believing they can go hero mode and win the game often do. It's the Aaron Rodgers effect. That dude just has it in his ******* mind that he *will* find a way to win the game. You don't see it in Siemian. Instead, you see a guy who is playing to avoid interceptions at all costs when another QB would be willing to shoulder the responsibility, take the reins and will his team to win.
It's hard to root for a guy that doesn't seem to believe in himself.
i agree. Thing is. We saw a different Siemian in that Bengals game last year. He was throwing deep all day long.
Needs to get back to that. He took over that game in Cinci.
Havent seen that guy since that game.
HORSEPOWER 56
08-11-2017, 05:20 AM
After what I saw last night, I'm ready to hand it over to Sloter. When he rolled left and while under pressure dropped a 20 yard dime to Raymond, I was sold. There's no way Siemian, or Lynch with how he's playing, make that play right now.
That's always been my issue with Siemian. Physical limitations combined with a conservative attitude = a guy who can not lose the game for you, but won't win them for you, either.
Timmy!
08-11-2017, 05:22 AM
Fake news.
Timmy!
08-11-2017, 05:24 AM
Oh god......now we have to hear about sloter for a week.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 06:42 AM
WTF are you talking about? Were we reading the same board last night/today? Pretty much the unanimous opinion of last night is that Lynch was awful and Siemian, limited as he might be, is pretty firmly entrenched as the starter. I think slim got in your head or something.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 06:42 AM
Oh god......now we have to hear about sloter for a week.
Apparently he's the next Elway because he threw a deep TD bomb to a guy who didn't have a defender within 20 yards of him. I guess he's this year's "great undrafted hope".
Lynch...he's already a bust...15 months into his career...it's kinda "visceral" to the 2 or 3 people here that don't think he's a bust...you wouldn't know because you have a hard time understanding almost everything.
Why am I always explaining shit to you?
Because half the time you make no sense. Take the these two posts:
T you spelled "Lynch" wrong.
He's a bust after 15 months, it's visceral to you but it is to the 2 or 3 people that don't think he's a bust.
I understand you make typos, I do to, but don't get your panties in a bunch when clarification is asked. This gobblygook "it's visceral to you but it is to the 2 or 3 people that don't think he's a bust" makes no sense.
Is this local media? Or just forum members? I've been to Denver twice this year and listen to Denver radio occasionally and I'm not hearing anything overly negative or unfair.
My AP sports feed said Trevor was pulling away with the job. Al and DMac reported the same.
Fans in forum. Fans in Twitter. You can go back to Siemian's first start in week one and not even halfway through you had strong reactions. Whether it was Orton comparisons or just "this is horrible, how did we wind up with this as QB" type reactions to a guy in his first start.
Is it just that he's boring, as Gem and some others have said? Is it his draft status? Why the reactions? As I indicated, they can be so visceral, I'm shocked at times.
WTF are you talking about? Were we reading the same board last night/today? Pretty much the unanimous opinion of last night is that Lynch was awful and Siemian, limited as he might be, is pretty firmly entrenched as the starter. I think slim got in your head or something.
Less about the game day thread and more about the months leading up to that game, the 14 game day threads last year.
Even some of our otherwise even keeled guys get as worked up and angry about Siemian as we often see in politics.
Even after last night, while most except for King (who still contends they are playing at the same level :confused:) agree that Siemian likely needs to be starters, they act like they are ready to slit their wrists over it or the season is already over.
He's not ever (or unlikely) going to be a great QB and has massive flaws in his game that are never brought up. Like, for instance, his lack of pocket presence. Or, how occasionally he flashes NFL arm strength but you see it vanish. The differences between leading a NFL WR on a pass where they can turn up field in stride for better YAC and not are finite -and he doesn't do that either.
Outside of being smart and making few mistakes he doesn't do anything well. Those guys are governors on an offenses engine. And the amount of deffernce and love he gets is boogling - he's a favorite son and he's average. Hahdhsjwhshdbxbsnajdxjbxnsh - that's how it makes me feel!
i agree. Thing is. We saw a different Siemian in that Bengals game last year. He was throwing deep all day long.
Needs to get back to that. He took over that game in Cinci.
Havent seen that guy since that game.
Because the WRs were open by a yard and the line held up. Of course he can do that - that was shooting tigers in a harambe cage.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 08:46 AM
He's not ever (or unlikely) going to be a great QB and has massive flaws in his game that are never brought up. Like, for instance, his lack of pocket presence. Or, how occasionally he flashes NFL arm strength but you see it vanish. The differences between leading a NFL WR on a pass where they can turn up field in stride for better YAC and not are finite -and he doesn't do that either.
Outside of being smart and making few mistakes he doesn't do anything well. Those guys are governors on an offenses engine. And the amount of deffernce and love he gets is boogling - he's a favorite son and he's average. Hahdhsjwhshdbxbsnajdxjbxnsh - that's how it makes me feel!
He's basically a modern day Chad Pennington. You can win 10 games with him if all else goes well, but he ain't carrying you to the promised land.
He's basically a modern day Chad Pennington. You can win 10 games with him if all else goes well, but he ain't carrying you to the promised land.
I would like him more if he could channel the talent that he has. If he's so conservative that he can't or won't do that I get it. But if he can't, literally. Ugh.
Wait a minute...he reminds me of Andy Dalton.
He's basically a modern day Chad Pennington. You can win 10 games with him if all else goes well, but he ain't carrying you to the promised land.
Unless there is significant improvement to what we saw last year (which I think is possible, but far from guaranteed), I think this is a fair assessment.
Freyaka
08-11-2017, 09:07 AM
T you spelled "Lynch" wrong.
I'm calling BS on that jaded... Lynch if anything is getting people giving it to him easy. Even I am preaching to give him time because it's just game one. Lynch doesn't get anywhere near the level of vitriol that TS does.
topscribe
08-11-2017, 09:20 AM
He's basically a modern day Chad Pennington. You can win 10 games with him if all else goes well, but he ain't carrying you to the promised land.
Well, maybe a Pennington with a stronger arm. But Siemian doesn't have to carry the Broncos.
He has a defense for that. All he has to do is to keep the ball from ending up in the opponents'
hands, get a few first downs to give the defense a rest, and score once in a while. If he does
that, he will be providing better quarterbacking than the Broncos had in 2015.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 09:26 AM
Well, maybe a Pennington with a stronger arm. But Siemian doesn't have to carry the Broncos.
He has a defense for that. All he has to do is to keep the ball from ending up in the opponents'
hands, get a few first downs to give the defense a rest, and score once in a while. If he does
that, he will be providing better quarterbacking than the Broncos had in 2015.
He did those things last year and we missed the playoffs. In today's NFL, "average" at QB just isn't good enough unless you are elite basically everywhere else on the field. In 2015, our defense was so historically good it made up for the awful offense. The defense, while still great, wasn't as historically great last year and the o-line was awful. If the defense returns to 2015 levels and the o-line improves then maybe we have a chance, but otherwise Siemian's play isn't going to cut it.
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08-11-2017, 09:29 AM
He did those things last year and we missed the playoffs. In today's NFL, "average" at QB just isn't good enough unless you are elite basically everywhere else on the field. In 2015, our defense was so historically good it made up for the awful offense. The defense, while still great, wasn't as historically great last year and the o-line was awful. If the defense returns to 2015 levels and the o-line improves then maybe we have a chance, but otherwise Siemian's play isn't going to cut it.
Well, you're making two predictions I'm not ready to make:
1. The defense isn't as good as in 2015
2. Siemian isn't good enough
I think in both cases we need to see more. That's why there's more than one preseason game.
Nomad
08-11-2017, 09:31 AM
Well, you're making two predictions I'm not ready to make:
1. The defense isn't as good as in 2015
2. Siemian isn't good enough
I think in both cases we need to see more. That's why there's more than one preseason game.
So what you're saying is.....folks need to take a chill pill and let it all play out. :D
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 09:32 AM
Well, you're making two predictions I'm not ready to make:
1. The defense isn't as good as in 2015
2. Siemian isn't good enough
I think in both cases we need to see more. That's why there's more than one preseason game.
I'm not basing this off of one preseason game. I'm basing if off of the entire 2016 season. The defense was not as historically good last season as in 2015. So as of now, they are not at that level. Could they get back there? Sure, but that's no guarantee. And Siemian was just not good, and basically looked like the same player last night.
topscribe
08-11-2017, 09:40 AM
I'm not basing this off of one preseason game. I'm basing if off of the entire 2016 season. The defense was not as historically good last season as in 2015. So as of now, they are not at that level. Could they get back there? Sure, but that's no guarantee. And Siemian was just not good, and basically looked like the same player last night.
I understand. But Siemian last year looked very good, according to reports and what I saw,
until he incurred his injuries, and that's when his play declined. Moreover, it should not be
lost that he had never been on the field in the regular season before last year, so he
essentially was a rookie. Regarding last night, he played 1½ quarters. Even the great
John Elway looked very bad in a lot of first quarters, and not necessarily as a rookie. So
I'm going to need to see more of Siemian's play this preseason to make a judgment.
I think the coaches will, too, which is why they will play him.
Top I get where you are coming from. But, if the situation is carrying a QB, then the QB isn't that great. I remember watching Brady and Big Ben slowly develop. It benefitted them. But it looked like there was something TO develop. And yeah you can find some instances where non-traditional QBs flourish...but exceptions and rules and all that.
As a player, an individual, he's subpar. With little upside. Whatever he does on the field numerous other players can do. He's a red-herring - he looks like he's a benefit to the team because he's so safe but he's not. His production is so low and so poor that even when the dummy who looks like a deer in the headlight matches it we don't ask "why is that production so poor?" and instead ask why the dummy is so bad. Again - he's a god damn red herring. And what bothers me the most is that we will end up investing in a QB whose essentially a 2,500 dollar car to the tune of 5,000 dollars. TS just showed us through camp he's moderately ahead of PL - guess we better put an entire season into a guy who is polished but barely better than the uber talented dummy so we can kill this season (I'd bet with more time with the firsts and what not that PL would overtake him) and retard our chances next year.
TS is a bad QB treated like he's good only because if his cirumstances - it's so obvious and yet everyone misses it.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 09:42 AM
I understand. But Siemian last year looked very good, according to reports and what I saw,
until he incurred his injuries, and that's when his play declined. Moreover, it should not be
lost that he had never been on the field in the regular season before last year, so he
essentially was a rookie. Regarding last night, he played 1½ quarters. Even the great
John Elway looked very bad in a lot of first quarters, and not necessarily as a rookie. So
I'm going to need to see more of Siemian's play this preseason to make a judgment.
I think the coaches will, too, which is why they will play him.
We obviously have very different definitions of what "very good" entails. Maybe his level of play would have been "very good" 20 or 30 years ago, but that doesn't cut it in today's NFL.
topscribe
08-11-2017, 09:46 AM
Top I get where you are coming from. But, if the situation is carrying a QB, then the QB isn't that great. I remember watching Brady and Big Ben slowly develop. It benefitted them. But it looked like there was something TO develop. And yeah you can find some instances where non-traditional QBs flourish...but exceptions and rules and all that.
As a player, an individual, he's subpar. With little upside. Whatever he does on the field numerous other players can do. He's a red-herring - he looks like he's a benefit to the team because he's so safe but he's not. His production is so low and so poor that even when the dummy who looks like a deer in the headlight matches it we don't ask "why is that production so poor?" and instead ask why the dummy is so bad. Again - he's a god damn red herring. And what bothers me the most is that we will end up investing in a QB whose essentially a 2,500 dollar car to the tune of 5,000 dollars. TS just showed us through camp he's moderately ahead of PL - guess we better put an entire season into a guy who is polished but barely better than the uber talented dummy so we can kill this season (I'd bet with more time with the firsts and what not that PL would overtake him) and retard our chances next year.
TS is a bad QB treated like he's good only because if his cirumstances - it's so obvious and yet everyone misses it.
I understand your opinion. And I understand you're not alone in that. But I might ask: What specific traits to you
see in Siemian that causes you to believe he has a low ceiling? He has a strong arm, and he's accurate (when he's
not playing with and injured foot and a sprained shoulder). He's mobile. And he's cerebral. So I'm just curious as
to what it is specifically that causes lay people (I haven't heard that from pundits) to say he has a low ceiling.
Nomad
08-11-2017, 09:46 AM
I'm pissed off!!!
Calm down, big man. Breath easy. You have law school to focus on, we don't need you stressed out. :D
Calm down, big man. Breath easy. You have law school to focus on, we don't need you stressed out. :D
Our offense hashtagged itself! We are who we thought we were!
topscribe
08-11-2017, 09:51 AM
We obviously have very different definitions of what "very good" entails. Maybe his level of play would have been "very good" 20 or 30 years ago, but that doesn't cut it in today's NFL.
You may be right. I just want to see more this year, is all . . .
We obviously have very different definitions of what "very good" entails. Maybe his level of play would have been "very good" 20 or 30 years ago, but that doesn't cut it in today's NFL.
The truth lies between where you and Top are. He was good (not very good) for a first year starter, in the modern NFL. He was far from horrid as some would claim, and he was in no way amazing/great/whatever. If you look at it objectively, the only area where he struggled enough to be concerning was on 3rd down conversions. How much of that was him, how much as Oline, how much play calling and how much was the many 3rd and longs, is impossible to know.
He had one of the best passer ratings on 3rd down, but we all know that that doesn't tell the story because a lot of those completions were to soft areas short of the first down and the receiver was stopped short of the first down. Was that what was called (with a plan to gain after the catch), was that check downs, the only receivers open, all the time the Oline gave???? Who knows, I suspect a bit of all of that, but he's got to figure out how to get first downs. It's what the QB is supposed to do, and he didn't do enough of it.
Take last night, to plays that jump out at me was one where he threw short of the line on crossing route across the middle and the receiver was immediately tackled and there was a second tackler in the area, so that WR had next to zero chance of gaining the line. Another was the throw to Taylor where he had the first down, and gave it up, when he thought he could dart around a defender and make a big play. Both of those killed Broncos drives. One was on Siemian (unless there was no other receiver open and I won't know until I see all-22 film) and the other was on his receiver.
In the box score, it just shows him as 0-2 on 3rd down conversions (for those two plays I mentioned, but his passer rating would be ok on those two. Neither the completions/passer rating or the 0-2 tell the full story, because the truth of what happened lies somewhere in between what the "stats" show on those two plays.
I understand your opinion. And I understand you're not alone in that. But I might ask: What specific traits to you
see in Siemian that causes you to believe he has a low ceiling? He has a strong arm, and he's accurate (when he's
not playing with and injured foot and a sprained shoulder). He's mobile. And he's cerebral. So I'm just curious as
to what it is specifically that causes lay people (I haven't heard that from pundits) to say he has a low ceiling.
His arm strength is either average or he can't harness it. He's not a playmaker in any shape or form. He's so conservative a player that we should start calling him Thatcher. He is physically lacking. His smarts haven't shown up in any demonstrative manner - where are the audibles? Where are the hot routes that punish teams?
I'm pissed off!!!
It comes with being a "new" fan. We aren't a SB winner/contender every year, but the Broncos are such far more often than nearly every other team in the NFL.
Tned, he was 27th in NFL production last year!!! That is ultra shit!!!!!!!! Not GOOD!!!! Big poop!
It comes with being a "new" fan. We aren't a SB winner/contender every year, but the Broncos are such far more often than nearly every other team in the NFL.
I'm used to being mad at moderately talented QBs.
Tned, he was 27th in NFL production last year!!! That is ultra shit!!!!!!!! Not GOOD!!!! Big poop!
Oh, yea, I forgot there were 32 first year starters last year. Thanks for reminding me.
Now I finally get Wave's #HotTake tick.
King, I get your crusade the fact once you say something, you will die before every giving an inch on that position being 100% right, but your arguments get silly at times.
Hey, if you get a kick out of doing it, that's what forums are all about, so enjoy it.
I'm used to being mad at moderately talented QBs.
You never answered my question the other day. Would you agree water is wet?
You never answered my question the other day. Would you agree water is wet?
Not if it's frozen!
Oh, yea, I forgot there were 32 first year starters last year. Thanks for reminding me.
Now I finally get Wave's #HotTake tick.
King, I get your crusade the fact once you say something, you will die before every giving an inch on that position being 100% right, but your arguments get silly at times.
Hey, if you get a kick out of doing it, that's what forums are all about, so enjoy it.
I argue facts. You can't have a good season if you're damn near last at your job. I think that you wanted TS to have had a good stat season since you championed his cause last year - you almost needed him to have been good. He was legitimately bad.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 10:13 AM
Not if it's frozen!
###########################!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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08-11-2017, 10:24 AM
His arm strength is either average or he can't harness it. He's not a playmaker in any shape or form. He's so conservative a player that we should start calling him Thatcher. He is physically lacking. His smarts haven't shown up in any demonstrative manner - where are the audibles? Where are the hot routes that punish teams?
I really don't get the sudden allusions to Trevor's arm strength this year. Two years ago, the staff
and press were remarking about his arm strength. Perhaps people were watching him after his
shoulder sprain, unaware of that sprain. I don't know . . . but he does have a strong arm. But I
don't really have to argue that point. All I have to do is to provide some highlights:
CNAwNAcChns
Regarding audibles, I read where the coach was remarking that some of Trevor's more successful
plays were where he checked off, and that the coach is giving him that latitude this year.
But notice that in my last post I used the adverb "specifically." "Physically lacking" is rather
sweeping. Where is he physically lacking? Specifically? Notice in his highlights where he threw
50-yard TDs on a dime. Notice his scrambles. I don't understand the sweeping "physically lacking"
description.
chazoe60
08-11-2017, 10:30 AM
I think the common reaction to TS is "meh" which is better than the reaction to watching Lynch which is more like "yuck"!
His arm strength isn't consistent. When he's delivering a strike he's putting everything he has into it. He needs a damn near perfect pocket to throw heat. You don't get that in the NFL. In regards to check downs, I should hope that he'd make those work. But that's not what I brought up. Where are his great plays?
I'll give him this - last night he challenged the middle of the field, but he was behind on those throws. When he has to throw heat it's hard for him. Another example is that he can't throw a consistent out route to save his life.
If he was a pitcher he could occasionally throw 95MPH but he'd lack the command.
chazoe60
08-11-2017, 10:33 AM
I wish Lynch was out of the picture and Kelly was healthy. I'd much prefer a QB competition between Siemian, Sloter and Kelly.
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08-11-2017, 10:37 AM
I wish Lynch was out of the picture and Kelly was healthy. I'd much prefer a QB competition between Siemian, Sloter and Kelly.
I want the best QB to be out there pitching. I don't care what his last name is.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 10:39 AM
I want the best QB to be out there pitching. I don't care what his last name is.
Ok? As if there is anyone who doesn't want this?
Cugel
08-11-2017, 10:39 AM
Well, maybe a Pennington with a stronger arm. But Siemian doesn't have to carry the Broncos.
He has a defense for that. All he has to do is to keep the ball from ending up in the opponents'
hands, get a few first downs to give the defense a rest, and score once in a while. If he does
that, he will be providing better quarter-backing than the Broncos had in 2015.
That has been the theory since day 1 Top. But, that view may simply explode Week 1 of the Regular season if Trevor plays like he has so far and the offense plays like it has.
First of all, the RT position does not look good. And you all saw Donald Stephenson out there getting beat like an egg-sucking dog. So, the run game might not be a lot better than last year. Hopefully it will, but will it?
And it might be a few games before the defense is healthy too. Both Shane Ray & Shaqil Barrett are injured and will not be 100% for the start of the regular season. You know teams are going to triple-team Von Miller every play until the Broncos prove they have another pass-rusher on the opposite side.
The pass defense might not be very good to start the season if QBs are given 4 or 5 seconds because there's no effective pass-rush.
chazoe60
08-11-2017, 10:39 AM
I want the best QB to be out there pitching. I don't care what his last name is.
Me too. The problem is we have a 1st round picking soaking up rep and time from guys who are better.
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08-11-2017, 10:40 AM
Ok? As if there is anyone who doesn't want this?
Just thought I would play Captain Obvious for all our sakes. :)
TS is just good enough to give you hope. He's like Kyle Orton in that regard.
Me too. The problem is we have a 1st round picking soaking up rep and time from guys who are better.
You mean that he's on par with. I will continue to beat the factually correct drum because someone has to!
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08-11-2017, 10:42 AM
Me too. The problem is we have a 1st round picking soaking up rep and time from guys who are better.
Well, the way I look at it is, if the 7th rounder beats him out, then it was a tremendous 7th round choice.
And cheaper. :nod:
chazoe60
08-11-2017, 10:43 AM
TS is just good enough to give you hope. He's like Kyle Orton in that regard.
I never felt hope when watching Orton, in fact it was quite the opposite. TS is better than Orton.
Slick
08-11-2017, 10:46 AM
I never felt hope when watching Orton, in fact it was quite the opposite. TS is better than Orton.
I agree but the feeling when watching Siemian is eerily similar to the Orton days.
Slick
08-11-2017, 10:47 AM
I never felt hope when watching Orton, in fact it was quite the opposite. TS is better than Orton.
I agree but the feeling when watching Siemian is eerily similar to the Orton days.
topscribe
08-11-2017, 10:47 AM
TS is just good enough to give you hope. He's like Kyle Orton in that regard.
There is a similarity there. Orton was hot until he incurred his high ankle sprains. (Elway remarked
at that time that Orton was passing the ball "as well as anyone in the league"). Siemian was good,
for a first year player, until his injuries slowed him down. That's why I'm just saying that we should
reserve our judgments on all QBs for a few games.
He's shown us that he's bland since then, though. I'm just cranky!
Traveler
08-11-2017, 11:02 AM
Saw a tweet early this morning that mentioned both Siemian and Lynch were playing like most QB do in a QB competition. Way to tight and trying not to turn the ball over. Also mentioned that until one of them relaxes and just plays without fear, neither one will separate themselves enough to earn the starting job outright.
I tend to agree with this train of thought. The OL didn't help matters, but at least Lynch had the athleticism to get out of trouble.
The team veterans (especially on defense) might not agree and it could be seen as throwing away the season, but if I were VJ/Elway, I'd stop this competition and install Lynch as the starter. All QB's have growing pains and the team has too much invested in Lynch not to begin getting him as much playing time as possible. It's pretty evident Lynch will only get better with as many reps as he can get.
IMO, they should bite the bullet this season to see if he indeed is the QBOTF or if they must go in another direction.
I argue facts. You can't have a good season if you're damn near last at your job. I think that you wanted TS to have had a good stat season since you championed his cause last year - you almost needed him to have been good. He was legitimately bad.
I only "wanted" the Broncos to do good. I've been pulling for Lynch to win the job this year. Not be given it, as you want, but to win it, because that means the Broncos would have a better chance to win, not worse (by giving the job to the QB that couldn't win it).
Your assessment of Siemian in terms of how her performed as a first year starter is flawed, because you failed to grasp the concept that first year starters, with only very few historical exceptions, don't do as good in their first year as veteran QBs do. It's a rather simple concept.
Ok? As if there is anyone who doesn't want this?
King. He wants to give it to the QB that can't beat out the crappy QB.
I only "wanted" the Broncos to do good. I've been pulling for Lynch to win the job this year. Not be given it, as you want, but to win it, because that means the Broncos would have a better chance to win, not worse (by giving the job to the QB that couldn't win it).
Your assessment of Siemian in terms of how her performed as a first year starter is flawed, because you failed to grasp the concept that first year starters, with only very few historical exceptions, don't do as good in their first year as veteran QBs do. It's a rather simple concept.
Tie goes to runner isn't being given it.
Go Broncos.
I agree but the feeling when watching Siemian is eerily similar to the Orton days.
I agree but the feeling when watching Siemian is eerily similar to the Orton days.
A point so important, it must be said twice...
;)
I don't disagree that last year Siemian was similar to Orton in his 5th or 6th year. He was FAR better than Orton was in his first and even second seasons of starting.
If Siemian doesn't get better and what we saw last year, his first year starting, is not better than a veteran Orton, then I agree, it's not much to get excited about. A QB that can win when everything is going right, but he's going to struggle to win the game when you need an extraordinary effort.
Tie goes to runner isn't being given it.
Go Broncos.
Except you are saying that in Lynch's case, as long as he's within a yard of the bag when the first basemen catches the ball, the "tie" should go to him, because he has the "ceiling" to some day actually beat the throw.
Thanks for that analogy, because it really highlights the flaw in your thinking.
Slick
08-11-2017, 11:30 AM
A point so important, it must be said twice...
;)
I don't disagree that last year Siemian was similar to Orton in his 5th or 6th year. He was FAR better than Orton was in his first and even second seasons of starting.
If Siemian doesn't get better and what we saw last year, his first year starting, is not better than a veteran Orton, then I agree, it's not much to get excited about. A QB that can win when everything is going right, but he's going to struggle to win the game when you need an extraordinary effort.
The fact that Lynch is still so raw might be affecting Siemian too in the sense that Trevor knows he's in a QB competition going against a guy who is really green and more of a gunslinger. In Siemian's mind he's thinking all I have to do is not make mistakes and I can win the job.
Just speculations on my part.
Cugel
08-11-2017, 12:52 PM
TS is just good enough to give you hope. He's like Kyle Orton in that regard.
That's the prevailing opinion pretty much everywhere. If this was Buffalo or the NY Jets we'd all be happy "Ooooh! Trevor Siemian is Kyle Orton Part II! He might get us to 8-8!"
Rex Ryan has a permanent lament about how he was fired from the Buffalo coaching gig after Orton retired on him. Kyle Orton! He tried and failed to talk Orton out of retirement. He's convinced that ultimately cost him his job.
That kind of crap won't fly in Denver. Not at all.
Elway fired John Fox after he won 13, 13 and 12 games and went to a SB in consecutive seasons with Manning - but didn't win it all. 8-8 will put Vance Joseph on the hot seat.
Two 8-8 or 9-7 seasons and no playoff wins will probably get Joseph fired as well. So, I think next season they are going to have to go to Chad Kelly, Sloter or a rookie draft pick to play QB. 'Cause I don't see either of our 2 QBs ever being as good as Mitch Trebisky looked last night. And that's a problem.
BroncoJoe
08-11-2017, 12:55 PM
We went to consecutive SB's with Manning and Fox?
The fact that Lynch is still so raw might be affecting Siemian too in the sense that Trevor knows he's in a QB competition going against a guy who is really green and more of a gunslinger. In Siemian's mind he's thinking all I have to do is not make mistakes and I can win the job.
Just speculations on my part.
Lammey, who as we all know loves Lynch, said the same about a week ago. Said as soon as Lynch started making mistakes with increased frequency, Siemian started settling down into safe, mistake free ball. Hard to say if it's that, or just that he's conservative in general. Whatever the reason, you HAVE to take deep shots now and then. You don't even have to hit that many, but you have to take them. You can't throw short of the line on third down at such a high percentage.
We went to consecutive SB's with Manning and Fox?
Brain's a little fuzzy right now, but aren't we due for a FB again? Was it SB in 2013, missed 2014, SB in 2015, missed 2016, back in SB in 2017?
Like HoJo back in the day with the Mets, he was a 30/30 guy every other year (odd years).
Cugel
08-11-2017, 01:04 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Tned View Post
A point so important, it must be said twice...
I don't disagree that last year Siemian was similar to Orton in his 5th or 6th year. He was FAR better than Orton was in his first and even second seasons of starting.
If Siemian doesn't get better and what we saw last year, his first year starting, is not better than a veteran Orton, then I agree, it's not much to get excited about. A QB that can win when everything is going right, but he's going to struggle to win the game when you need an extraordinary effort.
The problem is that you need a top 10 QB to win the SB. You just look at the QBs who have won and what do you see?
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger a couple of times, Tom Brady fifteen billion more times, Peyton again, Aaron Rogers & Drew Brees, frickin' Tom Brady a couple of zillion more times (did I mention that I hate him?), and then you get back to Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer sometime back during the Paleocene Era.
You can argue about some of these guys if you want to, but every single one of them on that list (outside Dilfer and Johnson which are special cases - historically great defenses), played vastly better during their SB run than Trevor has EVER played at any point in his career. Did I mention "ever?"
We've seen NO indication, not even a glimpse like we saw from Mitch Trebisky last night, that Trevor will EVER be that kind of QB.
And I think you can forget about the Broncos ever repeating using the formula of historically great defense + crappy offense that worked for them in 2015. That happens on average once every ten years, and never to the same team twice.
It's worth repeating: the '86 & '87 Bears had statistically great defenses, but they never went back to the SB with Richard Dent and the Fridge, etc., etc. They had Jim McMahon and the Giants had Phil Simms, and the 49ers had Joe Montana. That's why. They've been trying to replicate the '85 Bears in Chicago ever since. But, no joy. Same thing for the 2000 Ravens (who had statistically the greatest scoring defense of the modern era), the 2002 Bucs too.
Nope. Elway isn't happy with his QBs right now. He knows he needs a top 10 QB and he doesn't have one on the roster right now (unless Sloter or Kelly emerges next season).
Cugel
08-11-2017, 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by Slick View Post
The fact that Lynch is still so raw might be affecting Siemian too in the sense that Trevor knows he's in a QB competition going against a guy who is really green and more of a gunslinger. In Siemian's mind he's thinking all I have to do is not make mistakes and I can win the job.
Just speculations on my part.
But Paxton wasn't "gun-slinging" out there last night. He looked a LOT more like a little lost lamb out there than Clint Eastwood in High Plains Drifter. I think Trevor was thinking "there's no way I can lose to this guy unless I turn the ball over. So, don't turn the ball over! Don't turn the ball over! Don't turn the ball over!"
He was trying not to lose, more than he was trying to win the job. And Paxton? I think he wishes he had chosen an easier sport. He reminds me of a law school classmate who didn't make it out of first year. He raised his hand in class one day and asked "how are we expected to get all this knowledge into our tiny little brains?"
Except you are saying that in Lynch's case, as long as he's within a yard of the bag when the first basemen catches the ball, the "tie" should go to him, because he has the "ceiling" to some day actually beat the throw.
Thanks for that analogy, because it really highlights the flaw in your thinking.
There's not a flaw - it highlights the reality that talent matters. Tie goes to runner means that if it's so close you can't tell you go with the runner. In this instant the offensive player is PL can he's more physically talented. And you can mock the ceiling stance all you want - I'm sorry that you disagree with front office men including Elway. You yourself even said PL is more physically capable - ceiling simply refers to what a players beat potential version could be. Elway as a QB hit his, Akili Smith did not.
It is what it is.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-11-2017, 01:55 PM
I'm pissed off!!!
This made me chuckle out loud!
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-11-2017, 01:59 PM
Not if it's frozen!
That's twice!
HORSEPOWER 56
08-11-2017, 02:02 PM
I understand your opinion. And I understand you're not alone in that. But I might ask: What specific traits to you
see in Siemian that causes you to believe he has a low ceiling? He has a strong arm, and he's accurate (when he's
not playing with and injured foot and a sprained shoulder). He's mobile. And he's cerebral. So I'm just curious as
to what it is specifically that causes lay people (I haven't heard that from pundits) to say he has a low ceiling.
To throw my 2 cents in, I don't see the strong arm. I also don't believe he has great accuracy over about 10 yards. As brought up before, He rarely leads receivers. Almost all of his deep passes are behind the receiver forcing the receiver to slow down and wait on the pass. I don't think TS is very physically talented and it becomes an issue when the defense crowds the box. He's cerebral and a good west-coast type guy who can dunk and dunk, but for that to work, you must have a good running game. We need a QB that can score without one.
He was amongst the worst passers in the league on passes over 20 yards.
He was amongst the better passers at 15/16 to 10 yards.
People confuse being able to sell out and heave a ball deep with being good at it.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-11-2017, 02:05 PM
Saw a tweet early this morning that mentioned both Siemian and Lynch were playing like most QB do in a QB competition. Way to tight and trying not to turn the ball over. Also mentioned that until one of them relaxes and just plays without fear, neither one will separate themselves enough to earn the starting job outright.
I tend to agree with this train of thought. The OL didn't help matters, but at least Lynch had the athleticism to get out of trouble.
The team veterans (especially on defense) might not agree and it could be seen as throwing away the season, but if I were VJ/Elway, I'd stop this competition and install Lynch as the starter. All QB's have growing pains and the team has too much invested in Lynch not to begin getting him as much playing time as possible. It's pretty evident Lynch will only get better with as many reps as he can get.
IMO, they should bite the bullet this season to see if he indeed is the QBOTF or if they must go in another direction.
I would say Lynch is doing more to lose the job....
That's twice!
I wanna be a mayor.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-11-2017, 02:07 PM
The fact that Lynch is still so raw might be affecting Siemian too in the sense that Trevor knows he's in a QB competition going against a guy who is really green and more of a gunslinger. In Siemian's mind he's thinking all I have to do is not make mistakes and I can win the job.
Just speculations on my part.
My suspicion is he isn't concerned about the competition, but annoyed with the fact he's in a "competition" with a guy who has no chance of beating him out this year. It's a dog and pony show.
topscribe
08-11-2017, 02:07 PM
To throw my 2 cents in, I don't see the strong arm. I also don't believe he has great accuracy over about 10 yards. As brought up before, He rarely leads receivers. Almost all of his deep passes are behind the receiver forcing the receiver to slow down and wait on the pass. I don't think TS is very physically talented and it becomes an issue when the defense crowds the box. He's cerebral and a good west-coast type guy who can dunk and dunk, but for that to work, you must have a good running game. We need a QB that can score without one.
Well, you might not see it, but the coaches and the pundits did . . . those who were right there to
see him in person. BroncoJoe and I both have provided highlights that show TS throwing the ball
and dropping it in the bucket at 50 yards. They also show him completing deep outs and throwing
darts down the middle. (They're readily available on YouTube.) So, while I don't claim that he
possesses a "cannon," that his arm is strong enough is not debatable.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 02:08 PM
Well, you might not see it, but the coaches and the pundits did . . . those who were right there to
see him in person. BroncoJoe and I both have provided highlights that show TS throwing the ball
and dropping it in the bucket at 50 yards. They also show him completing deep outs and throwing
darts down the middle. (They're readily available on YouTube.) So, while I don't claim that he
possesses a "cannon," that his arm is strong enough is not debatable.
Which coaches and pundits have said he has a strong arm? Not trying to be a smartass here, I'm legitimately interested in reading such commentary.
There's not a flaw - it highlights the reality that talent matters. Tie goes to runner means that if it's so close you can't tell you go with the runner. In this instant the offensive player is PL can he's more physically talented. And you can mock the ceiling stance all you want - I'm sorry that you disagree with front office men including Elway. You yourself even said PL is more physically capable - ceiling simply refers to what a players beat potential version could be. Elway as a QB hit his, Akili Smith did not.
It is what it is.
The problem is what you've described in the past is not a tie, but instead PL being clearly short of the bag, but giving him the "tie" anyway.
I fully agree that if it was a tie, go to the more physically gifted athlete, but that has not been your position.
If it's close go with the talent. If in some hypothetical scale PL was a 7.0 and TS was a 7.1 the difference is so minute it could be chalked up as a rounding error. By and large you agree with me, which is good. I'm happy for us.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-11-2017, 02:13 PM
Which coaches and pundits have said he has a strong arm? Not trying to be a smartass here, I'm legitimately interested in reading such commentary.
I've seen a few guys in the Denver media comment on his arm strength. I can't say I remember specific names, maybe Klis and the dude who use to run Denver's media stuff
I've seen a few guys in the Denver media comment on his arm strength. I can't say I remember specific names, maybe Klis and the dude who use to run Denver's media stuff
There have been mixed reviews on his arm - if someone thinks it's strong I disagree. Adequate is the better term.
He was amongst the worst passers in the league on passes over 20 yards.
He was amongst the better passers at 15/16 to 10 yards.
People confuse being able to sell out and heave a ball deep with being good at it.
Based on the accuracy data you posted last week, Siemian was among the most accurate QBs under 20 yards, but as you say, he was among the worst over 20 yards.
We don't want that small ball horse shit round here111!
If it's close go with the talent. If in some hypothetical scale PL was a 7.0 and TS was a 7.1 the difference is so minute it could be chalked up as a rounding error. By and large you agree with me, which is good. I'm happy for us.
I'm not sure if you were talking last night or last year, but in no games nor training camp by all accounts, have TS and PL ever been as close as 7.1 and 7.0. More like 7.1 and 4.4 or the like. You keep going back to a few stats like completion percentage and the like (ignoring others like yards per game) and trying to make an equivalence argument, which nobody that watched them play (coaches, media, fans other than you and a few others) ever attempts to make.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 02:22 PM
I've seen a few guys in the Denver media comment on his arm strength. I can't say I remember specific names, maybe Klis and the dude who use to run Denver's media stuff
So, Klis and maybe someone who works for the Broncos maybe said it? Huge endorsements there!
Top touts these coaches and pundits so much I assume he remembers who said it. I'm not asking for much topper, just a couple of names.
topscribe
08-11-2017, 02:22 PM
Which coaches and pundits have said he has a strong arm? Not trying to be a smartass here, I'm legitimately interested in reading such commentary.
I don't remember specifically who now. I just paid attention at the time. Maybe some
research would turn up something. I don't know. If it meant something to my job, I
would take the time for it. But it doesn't. All I am saying is that I see on this board by
poster fans that TS did not have a strong arm, and I read and heard different from the
coaching staff and pundits a couple years ago when they were just finding him out.
But just look at the highlights. The one to Emmanuel Sanders in the corner went about
54 yards in the air. It doesn't have to be any stronger than that.
I'm out of this debate as of now. It stopped making sense some time ago. :coffee:
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 02:24 PM
I don't remember specifically who now. I just paid attention at the time. Maybe some
research would turn up something. I don't know. If it meant something to my job, I
would take the time for it. But it doesn't. All I am saying is that I see on this board by
poster fans that TS did not have a strong arm, and I read and heard different from the
coaching staff and pundits a couple years ago when they were just finding him out.
But just look at the highlights. The one to Emmanuel Sanders in the corner went about
54 yards in the air. It doesn't have to be any stronger than that.
I'm out of this debate as of now. It stopped making sense some time ago. :coffee:
Well isn't that mighty convenient? :lol:
Freyaka
08-11-2017, 02:25 PM
He was amongst the worst passers in the league on passes over 20 yards.
He was amongst the better passers at 15/16 to 10 yards.
People confuse being able to sell out and heave a ball deep with being good at it.
With an injured shoulder that hampered his throwing motion. That wasn't the case the first several games of the season. You can say "well it's that way now" but we're playing some of the most vanilla playcalling I've seen in awhile...
I'm not sure if you were talking last night or last year, but in no games nor training camp by all accounts, have TS and PL ever been as close as 7.1 and 7.0. More like 7.1 and 4.4 or the like. You keep going back to a few stats like completion percentage and the like (ignoring others like yards per game) and trying to make an equivalence argument, which nobody that watched them play (coaches, media, fans other than you and a few others) ever attempts to make.
I went with TD INT ratio and completion percentage.
I admitted several times the yards were in TS' favor. Not sure if you missed that several time or you're just tweaking my nose.
At the beginning of camp numerous days they reported PL and TS were on par, and some days PL edged him.
Last night they once again had similar production. I know it does t for your narrative, sorry.
topscribe
08-11-2017, 02:26 PM
Well isn't that mighty convenient? :lol:
No, I'm still here. If it's that important to you, then you do the research.
But it's not important enough to me to lie about it. I don't remember now. And
I don't care. It's that simple. It's really a stupid conversation, anyway, and I
should be more mature than to spend so much time on it.
With an injured shoulder that hampered his throwing motion. That wasn't the case the first several games of the season. You can say "well it's that way now" but we're playing some of the most vanilla playcalling I've seen in awhile...
Injuries happen in the NFL. It wasn't his throwing arm. And the first several games were vanilla. The only one that wasn't was against Cincy - they played pure man coverage against DT and ES. Of course we went deep - look at our WRs...
topscribe
08-11-2017, 02:28 PM
I went with TD INT ratio and completion percentage.
I admitted several times the yards were in TS' favor. Not sure if you missed that several time or you're just tweaking my nose.
At the beginning of camp numerous days they reported PL and TS were on par, and some days PL edged him.
Last night they once again had similar production. I know it does t for your narrative, sorry.
They both were a bit disappointing. But it's just one game . . .
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-11-2017, 02:33 PM
I went with TD INT ratio and completion percentage.
I admitted several times the yards were in TS' favor. Not sure if you missed that several time or you're just tweaking my nose.
At the beginning of camp numerous days they reported PL and TS were on par, and some days PL edged him.
Last night they once again had similar production. I know it does t for your narrative, sorry.
The only time Lynch was on par (reportedly) with Siemian in camp was in 7 on 7's while running around in shorts.
I'll bet Lynch plays a mean game of dodgeball! :lol:
I went with TD INT ratio and completion percentage.
I admitted several times the yards were in TS' favor. Not sure if you missed that several time or you're just tweaking my nose.
At the beginning of camp numerous days they reported PL and TS were on par, and some days PL edged him.
Last night they once again had similar production. I know it does t for your narrative, sorry.
Might be interesting to have you create a poll with this:
In first preseason game, how did the QBs perform.
1. Siemian performed better
2. Lynch performed better
3. They were both about the same
And see how that fit's my "narrative." Talk about trying to tweak noses.
I don't have a narrative other than I want the QB that wins the job to be the starter, and I'm hoping it's Lynch.
I just don't want to pretend he's playing better than he is (fortunately, I don't think the coaches do that, so it's ok).
Hawgdriver
08-11-2017, 02:47 PM
Saw a tweet early this morning that mentioned both Siemian and Lynch were playing like most QB do in a QB competition. Way to tight and trying not to turn the ball over. Also mentioned that until one of them relaxes and just plays without fear, neither one will separate themselves enough to earn the starting job outright.
I tend to agree with this train of thought. The OL didn't help matters, but at least Lynch had the athleticism to get out of trouble.
The team veterans (especially on defense) might not agree and it could be seen as throwing away the season, but if I were VJ/Elway, I'd stop this competition and install Lynch as the starter. All QB's have growing pains and the team has too much invested in Lynch not to begin getting him as much playing time as possible. It's pretty evident Lynch will only get better with as many reps as he can get.
IMO, they should bite the bullet this season to see if he indeed is the QBOTF or if they must go in another direction.
Yeah, it's questionable to gamble on a potential QBotF when you have a Defense of the Now.
DenBronx
08-11-2017, 02:49 PM
I see Lynch as a project. Maybe in his 3rd year it will click but right now it isn't and we really don't have time to waste.
I'd keep Trevor but deal Lynch and picks in a trade if he plays worse next Saturday.
Btw, I'll be at the 49ers game watching this madness unfold live. And 49er fans better not say a damn word about us getting Kap. -_-
Hawgdriver
08-11-2017, 02:49 PM
Siemian's longest throw in terms of air yard in 16 was the same as Aaron Rodgers.
topscribe
08-11-2017, 02:52 PM
Might be interesting to have you create a poll with this:
In first preseason game, how did the QBs perform.
1. Siemian performed better
2. Lynch performed better
3. They were both about the same
And see how that fit's my "narrative." Talk about trying to tweak noses.
I don't have a narrative other than I want the QB that wins the job to be the starter, and I'm hoping it's Lynch.
I just don't want to pretend he's playing better than he is (fortunately, I don't think the coaches do that, so it's ok).
I really don't care who it is. I just want the winner to win some games.
As BroncoWave implied, I don't want our defense to have to drag their QB along behind them . . .
Siemian's longest throw in terms of air yard in 16 was the same as Aaron Rodgers.
Which one could do it more effectively, more consistently, consecutively, etc. etc. etc. That stat is not that useful. I got a 165 on a timed LSAT once. Sure as shit not when I needed it.
Might be interesting to have you create a poll with this:
In first preseason game, how did the QBs perform.
1. Siemian performed better
2. Lynch performed better
3. They were both about the same
And see how that fit's my "narrative." Talk about trying to tweak noses.
I don't have a narrative other than I want the QB that wins the job to be the starter, and I'm hoping it's Lynch.
I just don't want to pretend he's playing better than he is (fortunately, I don't think the coaches do that, so it's ok).
You consistently tell me what my argument was/is when it wasn't the case. I had repeated it so many times I assumed that you were being a goofster, as we are want to do from time to time.
You consistently tell me what my argument was/is when it wasn't the case. I had repeated it so many times I assumed that you were being a goofster, as we are want to do from time to time.
What do you think about the poll?
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 03:09 PM
And 49er fans better not say a damn word about us getting Kap. -_-
Or what? You'll give them a mean look?
What do you think about the poll?
I think people will vote poorly and ignore that the production was the same. I made one thread you suggested and it went well, though. I mean, that thread had some great discussion, even though a lot of people didn't agree with one another.
Hawgdriver
08-11-2017, 03:12 PM
Which one could do it more effectively, more consistently, consecutively, etc. etc. etc. That stat is not that useful. I got a 165 on a timed LSAT once. Sure as shit not when I needed it.
It's useful. It shows the weak arm argument is thin. If you want to argue accuracy, I can get behind that.
I think people will vote poorly and ignore that the production was the same. I made one thread you suggested and it went well, though. I mean, that thread had some great discussion, even though a lot of people didn't agree with one another.
I'm a big idea guy. Use me.
It's useful. It shows the weak arm argument is thin. If you want to argue accuracy, I can get behind that.
That's untrue, though. Again, most NFL QB's can heave a ball far with their all in it. I don't deny TS made some nice deep throws. But he certainly was one of the worst at it in the entire league. When you don't have the perfect pocket, or the WR isn't wide open, when you have to compensate for issues going on at that play with your arm, or weather, etc. So, with respect that you are due, no sir. No.
I'm a big idea guy. Use me.
What do you think about Doss?
Hawgdriver
08-11-2017, 03:17 PM
That's untrue, though. Again, most NFL QB's can heave a ball far with their all in it. I don't deny TS made some nice deep throws. But he certainly was one of the worst at it in the entire league. When you don't have the perfect pocket, or the WR isn't wide open, when you have to compensate for issues going on at that play with your arm, or weather, etc. So, with respect that you are due, no sir. No.
I maintain that you conflate accuracy, decision making, and other traits with arm strength.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 03:19 PM
What do you think about Doss?
Doss is a stylegod.
I maintain that you conflate accuracy, decision making, and other traits with arm strength.
You mean when you have a guy running open but you have to put more arm into it because you have a guy in your face when you would, ideally, wait/want another half second before you throw the ball?
Or when there's wind and you have to throw it harder than normal?
We can think of a million examples. I've seen a million interviews with QB's talking about how sometimes they have to put more arm into a throw than they wanted. Don't act like it isn't a thing. Don't do that.
Doss is a stylegod.
I move that we, the stylebros, formally annoint Doss as a stylegod, for the record as well as posterity, which is aided by the record.
BroncoWave
08-11-2017, 03:22 PM
I move that we, the stylebros, formally annoint Doss as a stylegod, for the record as well as posterity, which is aided by the record.
Seconded. The motion passes. Doss is henceforth a stylegod.
Hawgdriver
08-11-2017, 03:25 PM
You mean when you have a guy running open but you have to put more arm into it because you have a guy in your face when you would, ideally, wait/want another half second before you throw the ball?
Or when there's wind and you have to throw it harder than normal?
We can think of a million examples. I've seen a million interviews with QB's talking about how sometimes they have to put more arm into a throw than they wanted. Don't act like it isn't a thing. Don't do that.
Yes, at times you need to throw the ball harder. Since the only hard data I can get on arm strength is farthest thrown data, and his farthest thrown # stacks up with the types you want to unfavorably compare him to, how shall we proceed?
Yes, at times you need to throw the ball harder. Since the only hard data I can get on arm strength is farthest thrown data, and his farthest thrown # stacks up with the types you want to unfavorably compare him to, how shall we proceed?
By watching the games and seeing how he often overthrows people on deep routes because he has to literally throw everything he has. It's like when Manning was overthrowing people when his arm went spaghetti....except TS got his limp noodle in his 20's...oh god that sounds awful.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-11-2017, 03:29 PM
Doss is a stylegod.
Our secondary is REALLY deep. Let's hope our front seven stays healthy....
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08-11-2017, 03:32 PM
Yes, at times you need to throw the ball harder. Since the only hard data I can get on arm strength is farthest thrown data, and his farthest thrown # stacks up with the types you want to unfavorably compare him to, how shall we proceed?
Go to the highlights and eyeball it. Look at the medium range middle shots and deep outs.
Was it thrown on a line?
How did it come out of the hand?
If you were to draw a target on the spot were you wanted the ball, how far off the bulls eye did it arrive?
Was it a timed pass? How well timed?
How quickly did he get the pass out?
How much pressure was the QB under?
How was his eye contact?
Did he clip his fingernails and shine his shoes?
Go to the highlights and eyeball it. Look at the medium range middle shots and deep outs.
Was it thrown on a line?
How did it come out of the hand?
If you were to draw a target on the spot were you wanted the ball, how far off the bulls eye did it arrive?
Was it a timed pass? How well timed?
How quickly did he get the pass out?
How much pressure was the QB under?
How was his eye contact?
Did he clip his fingernails and shine his shoes?
He was listed as bad at those throws at the end of the year. During the year, for most of the season, I pointed out that he was bad at those throws. Exactly what should I be saying? To disregard the stats? To disregard what we all saw but weigh differently? Your jest deeply wounds, me Top.
Cugel
08-11-2017, 03:45 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
Which one could do it more effectively, more consistently, consecutively, etc. etc. etc. That stat is not that useful. I got a 165 on a timed LSAT once. Sure as shit not when I needed it.
165 out of a scale of what? Back in the Paleocene when I took the exam it was out of 46 tops. 24 of the questions were frickin' "Logic Games" and boy were those tough for me!
165 out of a scale of what? Back in the Paleocene when I took the exam it was out of 46 tops. 24 of the questions were frickin' "Logic Games" and boy were those tough for me!
180.
Note that on the real test I got a 154. God damn that sucked. I sucked. It sucks. Cugel, you're a monster!
Cugel
08-11-2017, 03:48 PM
Nobody who has commented publicly on the performance this off-season of Paxton Lynch has said it's anything but bad. Trevor hasn't been much better. There's no way in Hell that Paxton is going to be named the starter, and frankly, Elway could decide he needs to listen to trade offers at this point, because it sure does not appear that he has a top 10 QB in the making on this roster. I've read sportswriters reports today speculating that the Broncos could be looking at a trade for a starting QB. I don't believe that, but such rumours only start when your QBs pretty much suck. And so far, they have.
We saw last night what a Franchise QB looks like in Mitch Trebisky. We didn't see anything remotely resembling that kind of play out of any Broncos QB except Sloter, and he was playing against the scrubs.
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08-11-2017, 03:52 PM
He was listed as bad at those throws at the end of the year. During the year, for most of the season, I pointed out that he was bad at those throws. Exactly what should I be saying? To disregard the stats? To disregard what we all saw but weigh differently? Your jest deeply wounds, me Top.
I was jest jesting, Jasper. But we'll eliminate the last point if it makes you feel better . . .
Cugel
08-11-2017, 03:54 PM
180.
Note that on the real test I got a 154. God damn that sucked. I sucked. It sucks. Cugel, you're a monster!
That's still 85% correct which isn't terrible you know. I would think you could get into my School - D.U. with that score and some decent grades? I got 42 out of 46 which is slightly better. Man, 180 points! That would be WAY easier. With fewer questions if you screw up 1 or 2 it really hurts your score.
And I don't think they still have Logic Games do they? I don't know what that crap had to do with any real lawyering skills.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming. . . . .
That's still 85% correct which isn't terrible you know. I would think you could get into my School - D.U. with that score and some decent grades? I got 42 out of 46 which is slightly better. Man, 180 points! That would be WAY easier. With fewer questions if you screw up 1 or 2 it really hurts your score.
And I don't think they still have Logic Games do they? I don't know what that crap had to do with any real lawyering skills.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming. . . . .
The test is considered harder now than before. Not sure why.
Hawgdriver
08-11-2017, 03:57 PM
That's still 85% correct which isn't terrible you know. I would think you could get into my School - D.U. with that score and some decent grades? I got 42 out of 46 which is slightly better. Man, 180 points! That would be WAY easier. With fewer questions if you screw up 1 or 2 it really hurts your score.
And I don't think they still have Logic Games do they? I don't know what that crap had to do with any real lawyering skills.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming. . . . .
They still have logic games on the LSAT, and I love that part. My reading comprehension though, not too strong. Like Kinger, I crushed a couple of practice tests, getting a 178 on one, was getting my application ready for Yale, but when I took the real test the results were quite out of line with the practice tests.
I was jest jesting, Jasper. But we'll eliminate the last point if it makes you feel better . . .
I'm a more peaceful man, now.
They still have logic games on the LSAT, and I love that part. My reading comprehension though, not too strong. Like Kinger, I crushed a couple of practice tests, getting a 178 on one, was getting my application ready for Yale, but when I took the real test the results were quite out of line with the practice tests.
I thought I was going to be the man, Hawg. I thought I was going to D.C. so I could be the next Deborah Epstein.
The reading comprehension section is a joke. I usually killed it, but no one reads like that. Ever. No one diagrams like that, and the questions are so specious in regards to what the passages mean in relation to the actual main point. To paraphrase one of my professors who did go to Georgetown "If you outline like that an already difficult situation will be amplified greatly."
What do you think about Doss?
I think we should crowd source that question. If we put up a forum poll, Twitter hashtag and Facebook group, we could have an answer in weeks.
He was amongst the worst passers in the league on passes over 20 yards.
He was amongst the better passers at 15/16 to 10 yards.
People confuse being able to sell out and heave a ball deep with being good at it.
Ok, doing some research, and apparently Siemian isn't quite as inaccurate a deep passer as we think.
According to PFF, he was the 17th most accurate passer on balls targeted 20 yards or longer (20+ yards in air), with an adjusted completion percentage of 39.6%.
The three spots ahead of him Rivers, Prescott, Marriott, Stafford and Big Ben ranging from 40.9% to 43%
QBs with a worst adjusted completion percentage: Smith, Rodgers, Wentz, Winston, Manning, Newton, Palmer, Flacco and a few others. All but Newton (85.7 vs 83) of this group also had a lower passer rating on 20+ yard throws.
In addition, only Rodgers had more drops (7) on 20+ yard targets than Siemian (5), even though Rodgers attempted far more with often (13.8% vs. 9.9%).
On Siemian never throwing deep? As mention, 9.9% of his attempts were targeted 20+ downfield. Brees, Tannehil, Flacco, Smith, Prescott and Bradford, attempted 20+ at a lower rate, and Derek Carr was basically the same at 10%. Wentz, Stafford and Dalton were 10.8% or less.
Hawgdriver
08-11-2017, 07:38 PM
Here's another thing to answer the question 'why the visceral reactions...'
We are talking about fans, so rational thought isn't always what it's all about. We don't get excited about the accountancy world cup. Except slim.
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08-11-2017, 08:02 PM
Ok, doing some research, and apparently Siemian isn't quite as inaccurate a deep passer as we think.
According to PFF, he was the 17th most accurate passer on balls targeted 20 yards or longer (20+ yards in air), with an adjusted completion percentage of 39.6%.
The three spots ahead of him Rivers, Prescott, Marriott, Stafford and Big Ben ranging from 40.9% to 43%
QBs with a worst adjusted completion percentage: Smith, Rodgers, Wentz, Winston, Manning, Newton, Palmer, Flacco and a few others. All but Newton (85.7 vs 83) of this group also had a lower passer rating on 20+ yard throws.
In addition, only Rodgers had more drops (7) on 20+ yard targets than Siemian (5), even though Rodgers attempted far more with often (13.8% vs. 9.9%).
On Siemian never throwing deep? As mention, 9.9% of his attempts were targeted 20+ downfield. Brees, Tannehil, Flacco, Smith, Prescott and Bradford, attempted 20+ at a lower rate, and Derek Carr was basically the same at 10%. Wentz, Stafford and Dalton were 10.8% or less.
Sounds pretty good for a first year player . . .
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-11-2017, 08:05 PM
Nobody who has commented publicly on the performance this off-season of Paxton Lynch has said it's anything but bad. Trevor hasn't been much better. There's no way in Hell that Paxton is going to be named the starter, and frankly, Elway could decide he needs to listen to trade offers at this point, because it sure does not appear that he has a top 10 QB in the making on this roster. I've read sportswriters reports today speculating that the Broncos could be looking at a trade for a starting QB. I don't believe that, but such rumours only start when your QBs pretty much suck. And so far, they have.
We saw last night what a Franchise QB looks like in Mitch Trebisky. We didn't see anything remotely resembling that kind of play out of any Broncos QB except Sloter, and he was playing against the scrubs.
Trebiski was playing against the same depth of roster Sloter was. T just get more hype.
Sounds pretty good for a first year player . . .
While I didn't think he was as bad as claimed on the deep ball, I had nothing to counter it, so let it be. However, based on PFF's deep target stats, he's clearly wasn't bad and did better than many top tier QBs in deep targets. He also wasn't helped by all those drops.
Jsteve01
08-11-2017, 08:09 PM
Brian made a great point last night during the game. Which I agree with completely when he stated that he really felt like if you want to open it up and give these guys a chance to really show what they can do in game conditions then you need to give him a couple quarters with the ones so Trevor should have had at least two maybe two-and-a-half quarters with the ones and twos and then Paxton next week should have two and a half quarters with the ones and twos. I just don't think you can expect especially in the first game of preseason a quarterback to go out and show anything spectacular with 15 or 20 plays it just doesn't make sense to me
Brian made a great point last night during the game. Which I agree with completely when he stated that he really felt like if you want to open it up and give these guys a chance to really show what they can do in game conditions then you need to give him a couple quarters with the ones so Trevor should have had at least two maybe two-and-a-half quarters with the ones and twos and then Paxton next week should have two and a half quarters with the ones and twos. I just don't think you can expect especially in the first game of preseason a quarterback to go out and show anything spectacular with 15 or 20 plays it just doesn't make sense to me
Look at how bad Lynch looked in the first two series. Looked like a 4th string QB. Then, halfway through the 3rd series, he started to settle down. I can see why he said they need extended time.
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08-11-2017, 08:37 PM
While I didn't think he was as bad as claimed on the deep ball, I had nothing to counter it, so let it be. However, based on PFF's deep target stats, he's clearly wasn't bad and did better than many top tier QBs in deep targets. He also wasn't helped by all those drops.
Well, Vance Joseph said he was impressed by Siemian's performance of last year. So I guess, based
on those statistics, and that he is giving TS equal time with the 1st-round draft choice, it wasn't all
just coach-speak?
Denver Native (Carol)
08-11-2017, 09:37 PM
Sounds pretty good for a first year player . . .
And was out how many games with a severe shoulder injury?
Sounds pretty good for a first year player . . .
27th in the league in production. Not good. And he was subpar on deep throws. TS being good is becoming ideology at this point! I won't stand for it!!!!!!!
ShaneFalco
08-11-2017, 09:41 PM
i think king dislikes siemian deep down for styling on his tigers.
Those poor magnificent animals are scarred for life.
i think king dislikes siemian deep down for styling on his tigers.
Those poor magnificent animals are scarred for life.
His only good game was when I loved the guy. I thought he was going to take the league by storm. Then he sucked and cost us the playoffs.
ShaneFalco
08-11-2017, 09:45 PM
He got into the cage with tigers and survived.
A mans man.
DenBronx
08-11-2017, 09:48 PM
Sounds pretty good for a first year player . . .
27th in the league in production. Not good. And he was subpar on deep throws. TS being good is becoming ideology at this point! I won't stand for it!!!!!!!
And do we have time to waste? This defense isn't going to be here forever.
But what are our options at this moment for this year? Promote Sloter? Hope Kelly can win the job?
27th in the league in production. Not good. And he was subpar on deep throws. TS being good is becoming ideology at this point! I won't stand for it!!!!!!!
Hmmm, I guess you missed my post and a couple quotes of it. He was not sub bar on deep throws.
Ok, doing some research, and apparently Siemian isn't quite as inaccurate a deep passer as we think.
According to PFF, he was the 17th most accurate passer on balls targeted 20 yards or longer (20+ yards in air), with an adjusted completion percentage of 39.6%.
The three spots ahead of him Rivers, Prescott, Marriott, Stafford and Big Ben ranging from 40.9% to 43%
QBs with a worst adjusted completion percentage: Smith, Rodgers, Wentz, Winston, Manning, Newton, Palmer, Flacco and a few others. All but Newton (85.7 vs 83) of this group also had a lower passer rating on 20+ yard throws.
In addition, only Rodgers had more drops (7) on 20+ yard targets than Siemian (5), even though Rodgers attempted far more with often (13.8% vs. 9.9%).
On Siemian never throwing deep? As mention, 9.9% of his attempts were targeted 20+ downfield. Brees, Tannehil, Flacco, Smith, Prescott and Bradford, attempted 20+ at a lower rate, and Derek Carr was basically the same at 10%. Wentz, Stafford and Dalton were 10.8% or less.
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08-11-2017, 10:50 PM
27th in the league in production. Not good. And he was subpar on deep throws. TS being good is becoming ideology at this point! I won't stand for it!!!!!!!
So then, you missed this post?
Ok, doing some research, and apparently Siemian isn't quite as inaccurate a deep passer as we think.
According to PFF, he was the 17th most accurate passer on balls targeted 20 yards or longer (20+ yards in air), with an adjusted completion percentage of 39.6%.
The three spots ahead of him Rivers, Prescott, Marriott, Stafford and Big Ben ranging from 40.9% to 43%
QBs with a worst adjusted completion percentage: Smith, Rodgers, Wentz, Winston, Manning, Newton, Palmer, Flacco and a few others. All but Newton (85.7 vs 83) of this group also had a lower passer rating on 20+ yard throws.
In addition, only Rodgers had more drops (7) on 20+ yard targets than Siemian (5), even though Rodgers attempted far more with often (13.8% vs. 9.9%).
On Siemian never throwing deep? As mention, 9.9% of his attempts were targeted 20+ downfield. Brees, Tannehil, Flacco, Smith, Prescott and Bradford, attempted 20+ at a lower rate, and Derek Carr was basically the same at 10%. Wentz, Stafford and Dalton were 10.8% or less.
So if you read this with a clear mind, you will see that TS was on a par with some pretty
good QBs in his deep game.
And, once again, you are being pretty vague and sweeping with your allusion to production.
Just what do you mean there? Are you talking about the offense's production or his own
individual production? And if individual, are you talking general yards or passing alone? And
if you're talking passing alone, can you break it down to the specific situations and types of
passes? It would be good to consider that because broad, sweeping allusions prove very little.
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08-11-2017, 10:52 PM
Hmmm, I guess you missed my post and a couple quotes of it. He was not sub bar on deep throws.
Noticed your post after posting mine . . . :wave:
JPPT1974
08-11-2017, 11:04 PM
Yeah as there are some in the media. That says they need to start Lynch in preseason week 2.
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08-11-2017, 11:05 PM
And was out how many games with a severe shoulder injury?
And played with that injury for the rest of the season when he did come back.
Noticed your post after posting mine . . . :wave:
Maybe with both of them, King will have a hard time "conveniently" missing it.
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08-11-2017, 11:07 PM
Maybe with both of them, King will have a hard time "conveniently" missing it.
BTW, whatever happened to our Bengals friend, whom we used to call King?
Remember the link I posted where he was? I get it - ideology. That's where we are at.
ShaneFalco
08-11-2017, 11:27 PM
Siemianology.
I am a siemianologist
Siemianology.
I am a siemianologist
You told us that you were off his bandwagon and were all about Kelly, Team Kelly, as you said.
https://brickwallblitz.wordpress.com/2017/03/26/the-2016-17-deep-ball-project-part-33/
Again, he is bad at deep throws. Again, TS was ranked 27th in the league out of production last year, per PFF.
27. TREVOR SIEMIAN, DENVER BRONCOS
2016 overall grade: 50.4
Siemian is limited as a passer, often needing a clean vision of the play pre-snap in order to succeed. This leads to plenty of inconsistency, both on a week-to-week and a play-for-play basis. In the grand scheme of things, he’s performed well for a quarterback with low expectations, but he’s also a hindrance for a Denver team that still features a championship-level defense.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-this-season
The same guy was ranked in the bottom quarter of the league in yards, and near the bottom from starters at completion percentage. Goodness, gracious.
ShaneFalco
08-11-2017, 11:55 PM
Swaggy K is hurt right now. Cant play yet
ShaneFalco
08-11-2017, 11:58 PM
Hey King would you say Siemian is like FMW?
https://media.giphy.com/media/xT3i0MMa91X5XBWyLS/giphy.gif
So then, you missed this post?
So if you read this with a clear mind, you will see that TS was on a par with some pretty
good QBs in his deep game.
And, once again, you are being pretty vague and sweeping with your allusion to production.
Just what do you mean there? Are you talking about the offense's production or his own
individual production? And if individual, are you talking general yards or passing alone? And
if you're talking passing alone, can you break it down to the specific situations and types of
passes? It would be good to consider that because broad, sweeping allusions prove very little.
There are 32 starters in the league. 17th out of 32 is below average. You missed several of these conversations where I produced data that shows that TS was not that great. Here's another. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/trevor-siemian/9683 He was ranked poor, by PFF. In another link, he was ranked near the bottom of production on deep passing, which I produced a few minutes ago.
If you would like more specifics as to how bad TS was at deep passing, allow me to get hyper specific: TS might have done well on passing plays that went 20 yards or more, but he did NOT do well when he had to throw the ball 20 yards in the air or further. The brick wall link I used a few minutes ago makes that demonstrative. However, we know, at the least that it wasn't a strength of his last year, either. He rarely ever did those throws: TEAM/PLAYER COMPLETIONS THAT TRAVELED 20 YARDS
Kevin Love 17
Los Angeles Rams 17
Denver Broncos 16
Baltimore Ravens 13
Jacksonville Jaguars 13
San Francisco 49ers 13
Houston Texans 12
Kevin Love completed more 20-yard throws than some NFL teams
Includes passes that traveled 20 yards in the air before being caught during 2016-17 NFL and NBA regular seasons. Doesn’t include plays on which a receiver’s run after the catch helped push it past the 20-yard mark.
SOURCES: STATS SPORTVU, ESPN STATS & INFO
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-can-the-cavs-can-beat-the-warriors-at-basketball-by-playing-football/
So, he was subpar compared to the league, and he barely threw those balls. I.E. his data set was inflated because it was small.
I know you have a ton invested in your narrative, but you are wrong.
This is PFF stats on deep passing, which is 20+ yards IN THE AIR.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________
QUARTERBACK DEEP PASSING
The ability to successfully throw the deep ball is one that not all quarterbacks possess. The numbers here are all derived from passing attempts targeted 20 yards or more downfield.
player
team
deep_attempts
deep_completions
deep_drops
deep_yards
deep_touchdowns
deep_interceptions
deep_attempt_percent
deep_accuracy_percent
qb_rating
Sam Bradford
MIN
47
23
4
754
5
1
8.5
57.4
121.5
Matt Ryan
ATL
63
32
4
1149
11
0
11.8
57.1
136.1
Drew Brees
NO
66
34
3
1250
6
4
9.8
56.1
102.1
Andrew Luck
IND
74
39
1
1161
11
4
13.6
54.1
115.1
Derek Carr
OAK
56
26
3
858
8
2
10
51.8
117.6
Russell Wilson
SEA
74
36
2
1199
7
4
13.6
51.4
103.7
Tom Brady
NE
49
23
2
834
8
1
11.3
51
124.4
Kirk Cousins
WAS
82
39
2
1359
11
3
13.5
50
118.1
Ryan Tannehill
MIA
38
16
2
641
8
4
9.8
47.4
85
Andy Dalton
CIN
61
28
0
973
5
2
10.8
45.9
106.1
Ryan Fitzpatrick
NYJ
51
19
3
556
3
3
12.7
43.1
73.7
Ben Roethlisberger
PIT
86
33
4
1058
13
3
16.9
43
110.4
Matthew Stafford
DET
64
23
4
951
5
2
10.8
42.2
97.1
Marcus Mariota
TEN
62
26
0
806
6
3
13.8
41.9
101.2
Dak Prescott
DAL
43
17
1
547
6
1
9.4
41.9
117
Philip Rivers
SD
66
23
4
859
10
8
11.4
40.9
72.3
Trevor Siemian
DEN
48
14
5
558
5
3
9.9
39.6
83.5
Alex Smith
KC
46
15
3
521
2
2
9.4
39.1
72.8
Aaron Rodgers
GB
84
25
7
841
6
2
13.8
38.1
82.5
Carson Wentz
PHI
64
21
2
654
6
6
10.5
35.9
64.2
Jameis Winston
TB
69
22
2
646
11
6
12.2
34.8
71
Eli Manning
NYG
78
23
4
752
6
6
13
34.6
60.4
Cam Newton
CAR
71
20
4
751
9
4
13.9
33.8
85.7
Carson Palmer
ARZ
69
22
1
700
5
5
11.6
33.3
64.9
Tyrod Taylor
BUF
58
19
0
706
6
4
13.3
32.8
85.8
Joe Flacco
BLT
66
16
4
556
6
5
9.8
30.3
56.1
Brock Osweiler
HST
63
12
4
379
4
4
12.3
25.4
37.7
Blake Bortles
JAX
68
14
2
410
1
7
10.9
23.5
6.4
https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/elite/stats/quarterback/deep-passing
That doesn't jive with ESPN's 538 stats. The link takes me to their 'buy this thing' page.
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08-12-2017, 12:10 AM
Thank you for posting that. In addition to being lazy, I'm tired and want to go to bed . . .
My apologies, I misread.
So, he's seventeenth in the league (subpar) and only completed 14 passes the entire year of 20 or more in the air. So you're admitting that he's not good at it. Okay, the numbers from my sources and your sources mostly line up. Your source is the most favorable to him, putting him in in the bottom half of the league.
Try this for perspective - He can do that once a game - but in reality several of those came in the game against Cincinnati. More perspective - even if you account for the starts he missed, he got 3/4 of those in the Cincinnati game, meaning he averaged less than one per game in the rest of the season. 25 other players completed more deep balls than him. Over 20 guys attempted more than him, too.
I'm glad we can all agree that deep passing is a weak spot in TS' game.
That doesn't jive with ESPN's 538 stats. The link takes me to their 'buy this thing' page.
I did and I'm sharing them.
There was only one Broncos QB that struggled with deep ball accuracy last year, and it was Paxton Lynch.
In his two starts, Lynch went 1-9 with one interception in his throws over 20 yards.
Quarterback: Paxton Lynch, Denver Broncos, 35.0
Despite the win for Denver, this game provided evidence as to why the Broncos are sticking with Trevor Siemian instead of Paxton Lynch (at least for now). There was no accuracy on his deep ball (throws 20 yards or more downfield), as he missed all four such attempts. When Lynch was put under pressure, he completed just three passes on eight attempts for 13 yards. Lynch may be the answer one day, but right now, he’s just not ready to lead the team.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-lowest-graded-player-at-every-position-in-nfl-week-13
Here's Lammey's beyond the LOS chart for Lynch's first start:
https://twitter.com/cecillammey/status/785505375558643712
Here's Lammey's beyond the LOS chart for Lynch's second start:
https://twitter.com/CecilLammey/status/805860495915962368
You just gave stats that ranked TS below league average in deep passing. Nothing you linked actually supports TS being good or even average at throwing a deep pass, and yet here we are.
Typically I would give a visceral reaction to this sort of thing. Because it kind of deserves it. But I'm not going to do that. I'm simply going to say that you verified my stats. Half the league is better at throwing the deep ball - and that's with TS throwing the deep ball at a much smaller clip, which should inflate his percentages. Your own data debunks your premise. Your narrative is dead, Tned.
My apologies, I misread.
So, he's seventeenth in the league (subpar) and only completed 14 passes the entire year of 20 or more in the air. So you're admitting that he's not good at it. Okay, the numbers from my sources and your sources mostly line up. Your source is the most favorable to him, putting him in in the bottom half of the league.
Try this for perspective - He can do that once a game - but in reality several of those came in the game against Cincinnati. More perspective - even if you account for the starts he missed, he got 3/4 of those in the Cincinnati game, meaning he averaged less than one per game in the rest of the season. 25 other players completed more deep balls than him. Over 20 guys attempted more than him, too.
I'm glad we can all agree that deep passing is a weak spot in TS' game.
Now you are in full blown spin mode. You've gone from insisting for days, nay weeks, nay months that he's "inaccurate" on the deep ball. Not that he doesn't do it a lot, but that he's sub par, horrible, etc.
So, now you are going to spin it to bottom half of the league, and well, he only completes one a game.
You completely ignore, the "inconvenient truth" (that's father of the internet) that some VERY big names in quarterbacking were more accurate or basically just as accurate as him.
Further, please remind me how many times you've talked about how sub par Lynch is passing, which is actually true, unlike the claims about Siemian.
Take it a step farther, if you want to have an honest discussion, and look at where the other first year and second year starters are on that list.
You just gave stats that ranked TS below league average in deep passing. Nothing you linked actually supports TS being good or even average at throwing a deep pass, and yet here we are.
Typically I would give a visceral reaction to this sort of thing. Because it kind of deserves it. But I'm not going to do that. I'm simply going to say that you verified my stats. Half the league is better at throwing the deep ball - and that's with TS throwing the deep ball at a much smaller clip, which should inflate his percentages. Your own data debunks your premise. Your narrative is dead, Tned.
Below average, but better than Rodgers, Flacco, Manning and Newton, along with highly touted prospects like Wentz and Winston, and on part with Mariotta and Prescott.
King, you are now going beyond insincere in this discussion. We both know that you are football wise enough to identify that the stats are not on your side, and that as a first year starter, not only is he on par or better than other first and second year starters, but performed better than multiple top 5/10 QBs in the league last year.
In case you missed this while you were responding to me.
I did and I'm sharing them.
There was only one Broncos QB that struggled with deep ball accuracy last year, and it was Paxton Lynch.
In his two starts, Lynch went 1-9 with one interception in his throws over 20 yards.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-lowest-graded-player-at-every-position-in-nfl-week-13
Here's Lammey's beyond the LOS chart for Lynch's first start:
https://twitter.com/cecillammey/status/785505375558643712
Here's Lammey's beyond the LOS chart for Lynch's second start:
https://twitter.com/CecilLammey/status/805860495915962368
Valar Morghulis
08-12-2017, 01:03 AM
I am so close to pulling the trigger on a siemian jersey..... Dudes gonna be a baller
I am so close to pulling the trigger on a siemian jersey..... Dudes gonna be a baller
Lol, I don't know about that. But, I think we can just have honest conversations about what he's doing well and not doing well (like throwing short of the line, etc.) and not fake news/false narrative about his deep throw accuracy.
Look at the four big name first and second year starters, along with Siemian, and they are all clustered and performed very similarly. Not to mention him being more accurate than Rodgers, Manning and other elite QBs.
That doesn't jive with ESPN's 538 stats. The link takes me to their 'buy this thing' page.
P.S. Thanks for putting me on to ESPN's 538 page. That's a gold mine and pretty much blows out of the water everything you've gone on and on about in regards to Siemian.
Average yards in air for completions:
Longer than: Big Ben, Rives, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Carr, Stafford, Flacco, Manning
Average yards in air attempted:
Longer than: Rodgers, Ryan, Luck, Prescott, Rivers, Carr, Brady, Manning, Wentz, Stafford, Flacco, Brees
In both cases, just pointing out the big names, leaving out guys like Smith, Kessler, Hoyer, etc.
So, his average length of completion, IN THE AIR, is longer than all those, as is his attempt in the air.
His longest completion of the year is longer than: Brady, Luck, Big Ben, Mariota, Manning, Brees, Prescott, Winston and many more.
Ok, the final one. You know all that bitching about him throwing short of the sticks on 3rd down? This next stat shows the average distance for completed 3rd down throws as it relates to the 1st down line (meaning throw was short and receiver had to gain the line).
These QB's completions averaged farther behind the 1st down marker than TS.
Siemian's average 3rd down completion was .5 yards past the marker.
All of these QBs were worse:
Wilson
Luck
Rivers
Ryan
Manning
Brady
Prescott (from Dak down, their average completion was short of the line)
Carr
Stafford
Wentz
Brees
Flacco
Again, didn't list guys like Hoyer, Kessler, Tannehil, Smith that were routinely worse than Siemian in every category above.
Hawgdriver
08-12-2017, 02:31 AM
I've tried the stats thing with Kinger. Numbers aren't his thing. He's more of a storyteller type.
iLands
08-12-2017, 03:15 AM
Just remember who had this sig first.
Hawgdriver
08-12-2017, 03:52 AM
VBkJLhRNJHg
So this is where we end up - the total rank doesn't mean anything because he was ahead of some big names. The amount of completions, the fact that they're scant, doesn't mean anything. The basic notion of inflated numbers on low attempts and completions doesn't mean anything. Here's the shining jewel to the visceral reaction - the people who aren't in the TS crowd tend to be the ones making the rational arguments, and the ones defending TS ignore everything that doesn't fit their narrative. Context doesn't matter, abuse any stat, etc.
So remember, when the QB who attempts fewer deep ball throws than over half the league ends up with fewer deep ball completions than almost all the league, the fact that he beats out, on completion percentage, guys who attempt much more of them, it doesn't mean anything bad at all. It simply means that we'll ignore inflation and just go off of a raw stat. And we'll just ignore that those big names he's ahead of had him killed in completion percentage, yards, tds, etc.
topscribe
08-12-2017, 09:31 AM
So this is where we end up - the total rank doesn't mean anything because he was ahead of some big names. The amount of completions, the fact that they're scant, doesn't mean anything. The basic notion of inflated numbers on low attempts and completions doesn't mean anything. Here's the shining jewel to the visceral reaction - the people who aren't in the TS crowd tend to be the ones making the rational arguments, and the ones defending TS ignore everything that doesn't fit their narrative. Context doesn't matter, abuse any stat, etc.
So remember, when the QB who attempts fewer deep ball throws than over half the league ends up with fewer deep ball completions than almost all the league, the fact that he beats out, on completion percentage, guys who attempt much more of them, it doesn't mean anything bad at all. It simply means that we'll ignore inflation and just go off of a raw stat. And we'll just ignore that those big names he's ahead of had him killed in completion percentage, yards, tds, etc.
Love ya, my friend, but Tned is the one with the facts. Sorry.
Freyaka
08-12-2017, 09:32 AM
So this is where we end up - the total rank doesn't mean anything because he was ahead of some big names. The amount of completions, the fact that they're scant, doesn't mean anything. The basic notion of inflated numbers on low attempts and completions doesn't mean anything. Here's the shining jewel to the visceral reaction - the people who aren't in the TS crowd tend to be the ones making the rational arguments, and the ones defending TS ignore everything that doesn't fit their narrative. Context doesn't matter, abuse any stat, etc.
So remember, when the QB who attempts fewer deep ball throws than over half the league ends up with fewer deep ball completions than almost all the league, the fact that he beats out, on completion percentage, guys who attempt much more of them, it doesn't mean anything bad at all. It simply means that we'll ignore inflation and just go off of a raw stat. And we'll just ignore that those big names he's ahead of had him killed in completion percentage, yards, tds, etc.
Attempts down field also has a lot to do with play calling and coaching philosophy, but lets just throw that thought out because it's not convenient to the stance taken.
BroncoJoe
08-12-2017, 09:35 AM
Attempts down field also has a lot to do with play calling and coaching philosophy, but lets just throw that thought out because it's not convenient to the stance taken.
Beat me to it. Because he didn't attempt many downfield passes isn't necessarily a reflection on him (or any QB), it's equally on the HC or OC and their play calling.
Love ya, my friend, but Tned is the one with the facts. Sorry.
When someone says "This person is good at this," and they're ranked in the bottom half of the league with inflated numbers due to lack of attempts, they're not correct."
Pro Football Focus, on various other articles, ranks him amongst the worst QB's in the league in production. Another site, with the same numbers, ranks him at the bottom of the league on deep ball throwing, because of the poor production of the deep passing and those inflated numbers. The same site as the first one, PFF, had his season ranked as poor overall.
I can't make people interpret things correctly. I can't make people come to valid conclusions. I can just put forth the valid data, as I did, and move on. And even if we agree with Tned's conclusion, that literally means 17th in the league means you're not bad...when you barely do something....
I'll leave everyone with this: if you found Tned's argumentation compelling go to ranking site I used and compare not just the grade that TS had overall for deep passing, but the rankings. So when you compare those numbers to some of those big names TS is 'ahead' of note why some of the minor differences in completion percentage aren't valued as highly.
Beat me to it. Because he didn't attempt many downfield passes isn't necessarily a reflection on him (or any QB), it's equally on the HC or OC and their play calling.
Yeah, it would have nothing to do with the coaches recognizing a weakness.
I blame Kubiak for a lot of things, but we saw what some of us know.
Attempts down field also has a lot to do with play calling and coaching philosophy, but lets just throw that thought out because it's not convenient to the stance taken.
Who said I threw it out? Kubiak was last the HC for the Ravens, with a QB who often threw deep. When he was running the Texans they werent' scared to chuck it deep, either.
Love ya, my friend, but Tned is the one with the facts. Sorry.
I salute this only for the first four words.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-12-2017, 09:48 AM
TS had a high ankle sprain and a separated shoulder; of course they limited deep throws.
topscribe
08-12-2017, 09:50 AM
Beat me to it. Because he didn't attempt many downfield passes isn't necessarily a reflection on him (or any QB), it's equally on the HC or OC and their play calling.
And on the time the O-line gives him to do it. And on the quality and quantity of receivers. The lack of that third quality receiver allowed too much doubling on DT and Emmanuel.
topscribe
08-12-2017, 09:51 AM
TS had a high ankle sprain and a separated shoulder; of course they limited deep throws.
I thought it was a foot injury, but it would have the same effect.
TS had a high ankle sprain and a separated shoulder; of course they limited deep throws.
Good and great QB's play through injuries and produce. Here's a quote "Life sucks and then you die." You know who said? Damn near everybody who isn't a TS fan.
#impeachthemayor
#imjustkiddinglethimrule
NightTerror218
08-12-2017, 09:52 AM
Siemian is a play it safe QB. I dont see him putting team on back.
He was also bad in redzone. His passing stats were ranked like 26th. I dont want a QB who is great between the 20s but can't close out a drive. This is the area I think he needs the most improvement. If he can dink and dunk down a field and close out then great he can be the starter. But uf we are going to depend on 40 to 50 yard field goals all year thus is going to be a long as year.
BroncoJoe
08-12-2017, 09:53 AM
TS had a high ankle sprain and a separated shoulder; of course they limited deep throws.
He was also out for what, three games?
topscribe
08-12-2017, 09:56 AM
Good and great QB's play through injuries and produce. Here's a quote "Life sucks and then you die." You know who said? Damn near everybody who isn't a TS fan.
#impeachthemayor
#imjustkiddinglethimrule
Such poor reasoning, and I hear that much too often. Physical maladies do limit production. It's a fact.
You might not have noticed the difference in how the ball came out of Trevor's hand after his injuries,
but I did. Were you aware that his shoulder required surgery after the season?
Such poor reasoning, and I hear that much too often. Physical maladies do limit production. It's a fact.
You might not have noticed the difference in how the ball came out of Trevor's hand after his injuries,
but I did. Were you aware that his shoulder required surgery after the season?
It's not poor reasoning, though. It's addressing the crappy reality. Starting QB's are expected to produce if they're playing. That expectation doesn't go away just because they're hurt.
topscribe
08-12-2017, 10:00 AM
It's not poor reasoning, though. It's addressing the crappy reality. Starting QB's are expected to produce if they're playing. That expectation doesn't go away just because they're hurt.
Tell that to Peyton. But stay out of arm's length . . .
So this is where we end up - the total rank doesn't mean anything because he was ahead of some big names. The amount of completions, the fact that they're scant, doesn't mean anything. The basic notion of inflated numbers on low attempts and completions doesn't mean anything. Here's the shining jewel to the visceral reaction - the people who aren't in the TS crowd tend to be the ones making the rational arguments, and the ones defending TS ignore everything that doesn't fit their narrative. Context doesn't matter, abuse any stat, etc.
So remember, when the QB who attempts fewer deep ball throws than over half the league ends up with fewer deep ball completions than almost all the league, the fact that he beats out, on completion percentage, guys who attempt much more of them, it doesn't mean anything bad at all. It simply means that we'll ignore inflation and just go off of a raw stat. And we'll just ignore that those big names he's ahead of had him killed in completion percentage, yards, tds, etc.
For our latest installment of: How will King spin it, since the facts are not on his side....
Of all qualified passers, Siemian's receivers dropped long (20+ yards in the air) passes at a higher rate than any other QB.
Siemian had a receiver drop a deep pass every 9.6 attempts
The QBs with next worst performing receivers:
Bradford a drop every 11.75 passes
Rodgers one every 12
Smith one every 15.33
All other QBs were above one drop every 15 deep (20+ yards in the air) attempts.
Don't you love how the King spin has moved from how Siemian has horrible deep ball accuracy to "uhh, well, he should have thrown deep more often and then his deep accuracy probably would have been bad." :confused:
I've nothing more to add as I don't need to add anything. Great thread, Tned.
Yeah, it would have nothing to do with the coaches recognizing a weakness.
I blame Kubiak for a lot of things, but we saw what some of us know.
It may very well be that the coach recognised the receiving weakness, since Broncos RECEIVERS were the worst in the league in terms of drops of deep passes.
Maybe it was the coaches AND QBs recognition of horrid pass protection, which obviously is a huge factor in being able to throw a deep pass.
But, let's not let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
topscribe
08-12-2017, 10:07 AM
/Thread
I've nothing more to add as I don't need to add anything. Great thread, Tned.
Love how you are pretending not to see how Siemian's recievers led the ENTIRE league in dropped deep passes. Convenient....
#inconvenienttruth
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-12-2017, 10:14 AM
Good and great QB's play through injuries and produce. Here's a quote "Life sucks and then you die." You know who said? Damn near everybody who isn't a TS fan.
#impeachthemayor
#imjustkiddinglethimrule
Do you remember how horrible Manning was when he got hurt? Fortunately Denver had Brock to play half way decent the last few games. Denver didn't have a viable backup option last year.
It's not so much that I have Siemian posters on my wall, but am persuaded it will be disastrous to give the reins to anyone else on the roster.
topscribe
08-12-2017, 10:30 AM
I don't pound the table for any one player. I'm a Broncos fan. Whether or not I personally like a player
does not enter into whether I want him on the field. The criterion is whether he gives the Broncos the
best chance of winning.
Having said that, I am a truth-seeker. In Trevor, I see a quality quarterback. People are critical of his
mistakes and limitations of last year, glossing over the fact that before that year he had all of one
kneel-down snap in the NFL. They conveniently overlook that he was playing with a porous O-line, an
inept running game, and a dearth of quality receivers. Add in his injuries, which required surgery
after the season, and you have a QB behind the eight ball before he begins.
I may be wrong . . . I have been many times. But I believe Trevor can carry the Broncos as a QB.
I believe he has a higher ceiling than is what popularly perceived. Vance Joseph made the rookie
mistake of promising the start against the 49ers to Paxton, so he will have to do that, then name
Trevor as the starter the next week.
And then we will be pleasantly surprised, assuming Trevor stays healthy. Which brings up my main
criticism of him: his apparent tendency to get hurt. I understand he has put on some muscle over
the off season, and hopefully he will have learned to slide feet first. His diving for extra yards days
should be over.
Now we'll see whether he can be a peer to the other QBs in the Division, or whether I will have to
find a recipe to make my crow more edible.
Freyaka
08-12-2017, 10:53 AM
TS had a high ankle sprain and a separated shoulder; of course they limited deep throws.
Man get out of here with your logic... That kind of thinking is frowned upon in this establishment.
Who said I threw it out? Kubiak was last the HC for the Ravens, with a QB who often threw deep. When he was running the Texans they werent' scared to chuck it deep, either.
Thanks for tossing this softball.
In 2016:
Flacco threw deep (20+ yards in the air) on 9.8% of his passes
Siemian threw deep on 9.9% of his passes
Hmmm, doesn't look like a QB that throws deep often, but instead one that throws deep at the EXACTLY same (ok, slightly lower) rate than Siemian.
How about how well Flacco did on the deep balls.
Flacco less accurate -- accurate on 30.3% of his deep passes -- Siemian 39.6% of deep throws were accurate
How about total deep yards?
Flacco 34.8 yards per deep completion -- Siemian 39.9 yards per deep completion
How about TDs, isn't that what it's all about?
Flacco 1 TD every 11 deep pass attempts -- Siemian 1 TD every 9.6 deep attempts
How about INTs on deep throws?
Flacco 1 INT every 13.2 deep throws -- Siemian 1 INT every 16 deep throws
Flacco's receivers dropped a deep ball once every 16.5 throws -- Siemian's dropped one out of every 9.6 deep throws
How about QB rating, surely those other stats are out of context and QB rating will show Siemian was worse:
Flacco 56.1 QB rating on deep throws -- Siemian 83.5 (oops, guess QB rating confirms everything else).
So, Siemian threw deep at the EXACT same rate as your example of a QB that "often threw deep" but more importantly, did FAR more with his deep throws than your example of a good deep thrower (Flacco).
#inconvenienttruth
Valar Morghulis
08-12-2017, 12:03 PM
Thanks for tossing this softball. In 2016: Flacco threw deep (20+ yards in the air) on 9.8% of his passes Siemian threw deep on 9.9% of his passes Hmmm, doesn't look like a QB that throws deep often, but instead one that throws deep at the EXACTLY same (ok, slightly lower) rate than Siemian. How about how well Flacco did on the deep balls. Flacco less accurate -- accurate on 30.3% of his deep passes -- Siemian 39.6% of deep throws were accurate How about total deep yards? Flacco 34.8 yards per deep completion -- Siemian 39.9 yards per deep completion How about TDs, isn't that what it's all about? Flacco 1 TD every 11 deep pass attempts -- Siemian 1 TD every 9.6 deep attempts How about INTs on deep throws? Flacco 1 INT every 13.2 deep throws -- Siemian 1 INT every 16 deep throws Flacco's receivers dropped a deep ball once every 16.5 throws -- Siemian's dropped one out of every 9.6 deep throws How about QB rating, surely those other stats are out of context and QB rating will show Siemian was worse: Flacco 56.1 QB rating on deep throws -- Siemian 83.5 (oops, guess QB rating confirms everything else). So, Siemian threw deep at the EXACT same rate as your example of a QB that "often threw deep" but more importantly, did FAR more with his deep throws than your example of a good deep thrower (Flacco). #inconvenienttruth
Ouch
topscribe
08-12-2017, 12:12 PM
hLTlT1X2Ayo
Ouch
How about Stafford that everyone wants, so we don't get the "well, yea, but Flacco sucks":
We've already established that Siemian had his deep balls dropped at a much higher rate than anyone else. On the other stuff:
Siemian threw a deep ball TD at a higher rate than Stafford (once every 9.6 deep passes vs 12.8).
Stafford just marginally better with average deep completion is 41.3 yards vs 39.9.
Similar deep ball rate (Stafford threw deep slightly more often) with Stafford throwing deep 10.8% of attempts vs 9.9%
Stafford slightly more accurate - Stafford accurate on 42.2% of deep throws -- Siemian 39.6% accuracy.
Freyaka
08-12-2017, 12:33 PM
How about Stafford that everyone wants, so we don't get the "well, yea, but Flacco sucks":
We've already established that Siemian had his deep balls dropped at a much higher rate than anyone else. On the other stuff:
Siemian threw a deep ball TD at a higher rate than Stafford (once every 9.6 deep passes vs 12.8).
Stafford just marginally better with average deep completion is 41.3 yards vs 39.9.
Similar deep ball rate (Stafford threw deep slightly more often) with Stafford throwing deep 10.8% of attempts vs 9.9%
Stafford slightly more accurate - Stafford accurate on 42.2% of deep throws -- Siemian 39.6% accuracy.
Hey, leave my stafford out of this. I love me some TS, but by god if I wouldn't take Stafford in a heartbeat.
Valar Morghulis
08-12-2017, 12:55 PM
How about Stafford that everyone wants, so we don't get the "well, yea, but Flacco sucks": We've already established that Siemian had his deep balls dropped at a much higher rate than anyone else. On the other stuff: Siemian threw a deep ball TD at a higher rate than Stafford (once every 9.6 deep passes vs 12.8). Stafford just marginally better with average deep completion is 41.3 yards vs 39.9. Similar deep ball rate (Stafford threw deep slightly more often) with Stafford throwing deep 10.8% of attempts vs 9.9% Stafford slightly more accurate - Stafford accurate on 42.2% of deep throws -- Siemian 39.6% accuracy.
Serving up some style
Serving up some style
Just doing my part to eradicate fake news!
#inconvenientruth
Northman
08-12-2017, 01:11 PM
Talking Broncos QB's is always fascinating. lol
Canmore
08-12-2017, 02:01 PM
It's not poor reasoning, though. It's addressing the crappy reality. Starting QB's are expected to produce if they're playing. That expectation doesn't go away just because they're hurt.
He probably shouldn't have played, but Paxton Lynch sucked balls.
He probably shouldn't have played, but Paxton Lynch sucked balls.
According to King, Lynch played "on par" with Siemian in games last year and in the preseason game on Thursday.
Personally I think that's a ridiculous contention, unless Siemian spotted Lynch 10 shots a side and the "pars" are actually bogies and double bogies, that are "net pars" with the shots he's been spotted.
It's funny, as an aspiring lawyer, King should be very familiar with the reasonable man principle.
A reasonable man that watched Lynch and Siemian last year and on Thursday would not assess then as "on par."
Hawgdriver
08-12-2017, 02:16 PM
According to King, Lynch played "on par" with Siemian in games last year and in the preseason game on Thursday.
Personally I think that's a ridiculous contention, unless Siemian spotted Lynch 10 shots a side and the "pars" are actually bogies and double bogies, that are "net pars" with the shots he's been spotted.
It's funny, as an aspiring lawyer, King should be very familiar with the reasonable man principle.
A reasonable man that watched Lynch and Siemian last year and on Thursday would not assess then as "on par."
He's a bulldog with his position, however hopeless it is. I admire that trait.
Canmore
08-12-2017, 02:16 PM
According to King, Lynch played "on par" with Siemian in games last year and in the preseason game on Thursday.
Personally I think that's a ridiculous contention, unless Siemian spotted Lynch 10 shots a side and the "pars" are actually bogies and double bogies, that are "net pars" with the shots he's been spotted.
It's funny, as an aspiring lawyer, King should be very familiar with the reasonable man principle.
A reasonable man that watched Lynch and Siemian last year and on Thursday would not assess then as "on par."
When King digs his feet in...
When King digs his feet in...
I'll admit, if I was a guilty defendant and he was going to defend me, I would know that even when there was video, DNA and credible eye witnesses to my crime, I would know that he would stand there with total conviction and proclaim my innocence to the judge, jury and media and do it with so much confidence that he, and I, would hope the masses would be fooled...
Cugel
08-13-2017, 02:31 AM
According to King, Lynch played "on par" with Siemian in games last year and in the preseason game on Thursday.
Personally I think that's a ridiculous contention, unless Siemian spotted Lynch 10 shots a side and the "pars" are actually bogies and double bogies, that are "net pars" with the shots he's been spotted.
It's funny, as an aspiring lawyer, King should be very familiar with the reasonable man principle.
A reasonable man that watched Lynch and Siemian last year and on Thursday would not assess then as "on par."
No. Your hypothetical "ordinary reasonable man" would conclude that Siemian basically sucks, but Paxton is worse.
The problem with a sort-of-mediocre, kinda sucky, QB is that while they can have a nice run for a few games they revert to below average as well.
No. Your hypothetical "ordinary reasonable man" would conclude that Siemian basically sucks, but Paxton is worse.
The problem with a sort-of-mediocre, kinda sucky, QB is that while they can have a nice run for a few games they revert to below average as well.
That would be the response of an emotional Broncos fan (emotional isn't a slam, because we are all emotionally invested in this team). If you don't have the emotional attachment and simply look at how Siemian performed as a first year starter and looked at similar performances by first year starters over the years (not to mention how many veteran QBs he out performed in 2016), a "reasonable person" using the legal term, would not find that he sucks.
Lynch unfortunately, has looked like he doesn't belong on an NFL field, but there is a limited body of work.
topscribe
08-13-2017, 11:45 AM
No. Your hypothetical "ordinary reasonable man" would conclude that Siemian basically sucks, but Paxton is worse.
The problem with a sort-of-mediocre, kinda sucky, QB is that while they can have a nice run for a few games they revert to below average as well.
Especially when they incur serious injuries that retard their physical abilities.
MOtorboat
08-13-2017, 12:03 PM
Especially when they incur serious injuries that retard their physical abilities.
Then he shouldn't have been on the field.
Denver Native (Carol)
08-13-2017, 12:04 PM
hLTlT1X2Ayo
Great find - I think this deserves a thread all of it's own.
Valar Morghulis
08-13-2017, 12:08 PM
Then he shouldn't have been on the field.
Agreed, I wonder why they felt they needed to play him.
Just kidding, I know why.
Northman
08-13-2017, 12:09 PM
That is a great video but (through no one's fault) when i watch it i feel like it makes me think our offense is a juggernaut when in reality it doesnt show all the failed drives and 3 and outs. lol
Then he shouldn't have been on the field.
Then we should've replaced him with someone bett—oh... right.... ;)
Then he shouldn't have been on the field.
Easy to say, but what was the Broncos alternative?
That is a great video but (through no one's fault) when i watch it i feel like it makes me think our offense is a juggernaut when in reality it doesnt show all the failed drives and 3 and outs. lol
It helps that they showed a lot of those plays three times (sadly, replays don't score any additional points.) The most impressive thing though was how many times Siemian stood in to deliver a long strike just before a tackler LEVELED him. Gee, I wonder why his shoulder was hanging by a thread before mid-season; must be because he lacks Lynchs mobility. Like on that play where he ran around all over the backfield dodging multiple defenders for nearly 10 seconds before throwing a TD to Sunshine, who did a FANTASTIC job fighting to stay alive himself.
MOtorboat
08-13-2017, 12:37 PM
Easy to say, but what was the Broncos alternative?
Either way, they were throwing someone to the wolves. But if Siemian was too hurt to perform, he shouldn't have been on the field.
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08-13-2017, 12:49 PM
Either way, they were throwing someone to the wolves. But if Siemian was too hurt to perform, he shouldn't have been on the field.
I agree. But it started with the staff. They showed the reason you keep an experienced QB
among the group. They should not have gone into the season with nothing but two
inexperienced rookies (well, one being an inexperienced sophomore). So they had nothing
behind TS but a VERY raw Lynch. So they put themselves behind the 8-ball.
Either way, they were throwing someone to the wolves. But if Siemian was too hurt to perform, he shouldn't have been on the field.
Again, what was the alternative the Broncos had? You know it's a loaded question, hence the reason I'm asking it and you're dodging it. So, I'll answer it for you.
They didn't have another option. Lynch showed in his two games, and we can speculate in practice, that he wasn't capable of running an NFL offense. So, by starting Lynch they not only would be nearly guaranteeing they would miss the playoffs, but also possibly stunting his development by throwing him out there when he was lost and incapable of playing at an NFL level.
That left the only alternative Davis and again, clearly the Broncos brass/coaches felt Siemian, even if playing less than 100% healthy, gave them the best chance to win.
So, while I know you have repeated the "well, shouldn't have been on the field then" we both know that's just your way of refusing to acknowledge that the injuries might have effected his play, because I know that you know, that the Broncos didn't have another "viable" choice.
MOtorboat
08-13-2017, 01:01 PM
The offensive staff and the head coach also got fired after that decision.
Canmore
08-13-2017, 01:03 PM
Then he shouldn't have been on the field.
Agreed!
MOtorboat
08-13-2017, 01:05 PM
Also, I don't see it as a loaded question just because we know the answer. The alternative was Paxton Lynch, I'm not trying to skirt around that. But if the excuse for poor play was that he was hurt, then he shouldn't have been on the field and Lynch should have even if he wasn't ready because that was the only alternative the staff chose to have.
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08-13-2017, 01:08 PM
Also, I don't see it as a loaded question just because we know the answer. The alternative was Paxton Lynch, I'm not trying to skirt around that. But if the excuse for poor play was that he was hurt, then he shouldn't have been on the field and Lynch should have even if he wasn't ready because that was the only alternative the staff chose to have.
Well, I guess they felt a limited Siemian gave them a better chance of winning than a very raw Lynch.
The offensive staff and the head coach also got fired after that decision.
:laugh: Yes, that's why they were fired, which is why it's also an open competition this year, because Kubiak clearly defied Elway on that one.
You still refuse to answer the question and have done so for nearly a year.
So, in your opinion, who should they have started in Siemian's place? Lynch? Austin Davis?
:laugh: Yes, that's why they were fired, which is why it's also an open competition this year, because Kubiak clearly defied Elway on that one.
You still refuse to answer the question and have done so for nearly a year.
So, in your opinion, who should they have started in Siemian's place? Lynch? Austin Davis?
Ok, I see you answered it in a followup post.
You seem to completely discount the fact, which was evident on the field in Lynch's limited time, that an injured Siemian performed at a much higher level than Lynch.
MOtorboat
08-13-2017, 01:10 PM
:laugh: Yes, that's why they were fired, which is why it's also an open competition this year, because Kubiak clearly defied Elway on that one.
You still refuse to answer the question and have done so for nearly a year.
So, in your opinion, who should they have started in Siemian's place? Lynch? Austin Davis?
If Siemian was hurt as the excuse goes, Lynch should have started. I haven't refused to answer any question. It was the only alternative.
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08-13-2017, 01:11 PM
If Siemian was hurt as the excuse goes, Lynch should have started. I haven't refused to answer any question. It was the only alternative.
As the excuse goes? So you didn't see Siemian's arm in a sling for a few weeks after the season?
If Siemian was hurt as the excuse goes, Lynch should have started. I haven't refused to answer any question. It was the only alternative.
First, it wasn't the only alternative, because they could have started Austin Davis as Lynch clearly wasn't ready.
Second, the front office and coaching staff clearly thought that a hurt Siemian was a better option than healthy Davis or Lynch.
But for a few really bad drops down the stretch, the Broncos would have been in the playoffs, so they were probably right.
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08-13-2017, 01:15 PM
First, it wasn't the only alternative, because they could have started Austin Davis as Lynch clearly wasn't ready.
Second, the front office and coaching staff clearly thought that a hurt Siemian was a better option than healthy Davis or Lynch.
But for a few really bad drops down the stretch, the Broncos would have been in the playoffs, so they were probably right.
Okay, I forgot about Austin Davis. He was the veteran. So that raises the question: If the experienced Austin
Davis was not better than the injured Siemian, why did they have Davis on the roster? It seems they didn't
do a lot right with that situation.
MOtorboat
08-13-2017, 01:17 PM
As the excuse goes? So you didn't see Siemian's arm in a sling for a few weeks after the season?
Yes, the excuse. He was injured. The drops. The offensive line. The playcalling. The coaching. 17 for 43 against the Chiefs in probably the most important game of the season. Some of the blame lies on Siemian. I'm sorry that doesn't sit well with you.
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08-13-2017, 01:22 PM
Yes, the excuse. He was injured. The drops. The offensive line. The playcalling. The coaching. 17 for 43 against the Chiefs in probably the most important game of the season. Some of the blame lies on Siemian. I'm sorry that doesn't sit well with you.
Well, the O-line wasn't an excuse. It was obvious to anyone who watched any of the games.
I personally have not said anything about drops, playcalling, or coaching. But excuses come
where one explains the reasons for failure. I tried to explain that Siemian had success
despite the O-line, running game, injuries, and dearth of receivers. And I complimented
him for having the guts to play through his injuries. That's not excuses. That's commendation.
It gets me excited to see what he can do without some of those liabilities.
turftoad
08-13-2017, 01:23 PM
Bottom line here IMO is that Trevor scares no one. He doesn't scare "D" coordinators or defensive players. I also think he is easy to game plan against because he doesn't scare anyone.
I was hoping Lynch was going to be further along than he is because of his physical tools.
We need to be better than in the bottom 50% at that position.
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