Lebron James now 3-5 out of 8 NBA Finals

[DenBronx]

Does this change anyones opinion of him? Good or bad?

[Jsteve01]

no I've always said that other than the Miami team he's never had the better team let alone the better coach. I think when you look at the guys that he's compared to Kobe played with Phil Jackson Michael played with Phil Jackson Steve Kerr is obviously a fantastic coach and I can't even name other than Mike Brown the guys that have coached LeBrons teams

[Poet]

no I've always said that other than the Miami team he's never had the better team let alone the better coach. I think when you look at the guys that he's compared to Kobe played with Phil Jackson Michael played with Phil Jackson Steve Kerr is obviously a fantastic coach and I can't even name other than Mike Brown the guys that have coached LeBrons teams

He had the better team (by far) against the Mavs and lost. He had the better team in Miami vs the Spurs, too. No one gets more excuses made for them than LBJ.

He's always played in the weaker conference, too.

[Hawgdriver]

LeBron is the greatest of all time. MJ always had helpers and coaching. Anyway, they are #1 and #2. Maybe MJ is better. Leave it to experts to say. MJ is a doosh and LBJ is a dude.

[MOtorboat]

No.

[DenBronx]

MJ is a doosh? I remember him being loved by almost everyone growing up. It was a special thing to see, he was extraordinarily clutch.

[DenBronx]

But...I figured someone was going to compare the two. So do the wins vs losses count when debating all time greats? Are we allowed to use that argument?

[MOtorboat]

But...I figured someone was going to compare the two. So do the wins vs losses count when debating all time greats? Are we allowed to use that argument?

Sure. But LeBron has now made nine Finals and eight in a row. That winning counts too. Michael only made 6 finals in total.

Michael 1a. James 1b. They are the two greatest players of all time.

[Canmore]

Sure. But LeBron has now made nine Finals and eight in a row. That winning counts too. Michael only made 6 finals in total.

Michael 1a. James 1b. They are the two greatest players of all time.

How many does he make if he didn't take that idiotic excursion playing baseball?

[Hawgdriver]

MJ is a doosh? I remember him being loved by almost everyone growing up. It was a special thing to see, he was extraordinarily clutch.

His post-nba personality has been called into question, as well as a certain uber-cutthroatness of his sporting career. It's fine. He's a gamer...like...that's all that matters.

And maybe it was.

[MOtorboat]

How many does he make if he didn't take that idiotic excursion playing baseball?

Eight. They had nothing stopping them in their version of the Eastern Conference either.

[MOtorboat]

His post-nba personality has been called into question, as well as a certain uber-cutthroatness of his sporting career. It's fine. He's a gamer...like...that's all that matters.

And maybe it was.

Like punching a teammate at practice and using his Hall of Fame speech like a scorned lover.

[Canmore]

Eight. They had nothing stopping them in their version of the Eastern Conference either.

He's probably 8-0 also. I'll take Mike.

[MOtorboat]

He's probably 8-0 also. I'll take Mike.

Probably. His teams were also way better with better coaches than James' early teams. There was the consistency of coaches and teammates, partly James' fault sure, but also of the time period. Michael's later three championships were won with three Hall of Famers and the greatest coach of all time. Right now, James has never played with more than one other Hall of Famer on his team - that's Dewyane Wade, other players chances at the hall are up in the air.

The teams they played couldn't hold a candle to the Spurs or the Warriors.

[Northman]

Does this change anyones opinion of him? Good or bad?

Not really, great player but not Jordan great. But that is just personal opinion which we have all been over.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Sure. But LeBron has now made nine Finals and eight in a row. That winning counts too. Michael only made 6 finals in total.

Michael 1a. James 1b. They are the two greatest players of all time.

That many conference championships puts him in elite company. He has played in more championship games than Larry Bird or Kobe Bryant.

I'm sure Larry Bird would have rather been 3-5 than 3-2 in finals games. Conference championships are an accomplishment in and of themselves.

It reminds me of people bashing Elway because he lost 3 Super Bowls while over looking the fact that 5 conference championships for a QB is a rare feat.

[Buff]

Lebron is the GOAT. How about that dunk while Durant whacked him across the head last night?

[WTE]

Rumors are LeBron will play 1 more season in Cleveland and then bolt to the Lakers to form a Super Team with Paul George.

[BroncoWave]

I tend to ignore any comparison between two individual players that involves their finals records. So many more variables go into that than each player's individual play. So no, the 3-5 record does not change my opinion of him.

[WTE]

I tend to ignore any comparison between two individual players that involves their finals records. So many more variables go into that than each player's individual play. So no, the 3-5 record does not change my opinion of him.

You now live in New England so you will assimilate and learn to hate him.

[Buff]

You now live in New England so you will assimilate and learn to hate him.

What other tips do you have for Wave now that he is a Nor'Easterner?

[BeefStew25]

Lebron is more like Magic than MJ. And he's better than Magic. But not Jordan.

[MOtorboat]

What other tips do you have for Wave now that he is a Nor'Easterner?

There are only 25 letters in the alphabet.

[WTE]

What other tips do you have for Wave now that he is a Nor'Easterner?

Now that Wave is a New Englander he has to understand he is part of the best and most important of everything. We are the best sports fans, we have the best sports teams, we have the most important storms, we have the best clam chowder, we have the best Hollywood stars, comedians and musicians...etc. etc. etc.

Once he understands that he will fit in just fine.

[aberdien]

Dan Le Batard Show‏ @LeBatardShow 17h17 hours ago
One of LeBron"s many lasting legacies is going to be the absurd thing Golden State had to build to end him.

[DenBronx]

Had to build? The core of Golden State was drafted. They picked up a stud FA finally and everyone loses their shit.

[MOtorboat]

Had to build? The core of Golden State was drafted. They picked up a stud FA finally and everyone loses their shit.

They drafted three uber-talented players and got lucky in the second round with Green. They signed a Team USA player in Igoudala and an all-world player in Durant while getting league minimum or low-salary contributions from Livingston, West and Pachulia.

They had to build that team to beat LeBron James, and it was specifically designed to do so.

[Northman]

And thats a problem because?........

[DenBronx]

Igoudala was not a hot commodity before the Warriors got him. Out of all the FAs they could have picked they went low budget and he was signed primarily to play off the bench. Which is what he still does best. I love his defense but he wasn't the difference maker for the core of the team.

And GS team wasn't designed to just beat Lebron. It's designed to murk the whole NBA.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Igoudala was not a hot commodity before the Warriors got him. Out of all the FAs they could have picked they went low budget and he was signed primarily to play off the bench. Which is what he still does best. I love his defense but he wasn't the difference maker for the core of the team.

And GS team wasn't designed to just beat Lebron. It's designed to murk the whole NBA.

He was Denver's best player when they were a playoff team.

[BroncoWave]

And thats a problem because?........

No one is saying it's a problem. They are saying it's a testament to LeBron that it took THAT kind of a team to beat him.

[Slick]

LeBron's legacy is just fine. The guy averaged a triple double in the finals ffs. What more is he supposed to do?

[BeefStew25]

LeBron's legacy is just fine. The guy averaged a triple double in the finals ffs. What more is he supposed to do?

Not settle for jumpers. The man should be posting up more.

[Slick]

Not settle for jumpers. The man should be posting up more.

Yes. They couldn't stop him when he would take it to the hole. He could have done more of that.

But the thought that being 3-5 inthe finals somehow taints his legacy, I don't buy. Dude is all world and right up there with Jordan as far as I'm concerned.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Not settle for jumpers. The man should be posting up more.

I've been saying that for years. He should not expend energy bring the ball up the court. He should get the ball at the high post at least 15 times a game.

[aberdien]

And thats a problem because?........

Nobody said it was a problem. I don't care about them building a superteam.

But it benefits Lebron's legacy when you see that Golden State had to go and add one of the best players in NBA History to an already great team in order to beat Lebron.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Nobody said it was a problem. I don't care about them building a superteam.

But it benefits Lebron's legacy when you see that Golden State had to go and add one of the best players in NBA History to an already great team in order to beat Lebron.
Exactly, Golden State has two league MVP's on their team. The last time that happened was Kareem and Magic.

[MOtorboat]

And thats a problem because?........

I didn't say it was a problem.

[Northman]

Nobody said it was a problem. I don't care about them building a superteam.

But it benefits Lebron's legacy when you see that Golden State had to go and add one of the best players in NBA History to an already great team in order to beat Lebron.

To some extent yes. But im not sure how beneficial it was to his legacy personally. The NBA is far more watered down now in my opinion to how it was 20 years ago. LeBron has benefitted a lot from a very weak conference. Not even sure it stops there, Lebron basically did the same thing when he went to Miami.

[BroncoWave]

It's been recently published that all 8 teams LeBron has faced in the finals had a higher net playoff efficiency than the best team Jordan ever beat in the Finals. So even if a "watered down" league has helped him get to the finals, he's had a WAY tougher road than Jordan in the actual finals.

[MOtorboat]

It's been recently published that all 8 teams LeBron has faced in the finals had a higher net playoff efficiency than the best team Jordan ever beat in the Finals. So even if a "watered down" league has helped him get to the finals, he's had a WAY tougher road than Jordan in the actual finals.

The best team he faced in the east after 1992 was led by Patrick Ewing and John Starks. I'm not buying at all that that was all that hard of a test.

[MNPatsFan]

It's been recently published that all 8 teams LeBron has faced in the finals had a higher net playoff efficiency than the best team Jordan ever beat in the Finals. So even if a "watered down" league has helped him get to the finals, he's had a WAY tougher road than Jordan in the actual finals.I'm not sure how that can be true or accurate given that LeBron's Cavs team this year had the highest payroll of ANY team in the NBA, while the Warriors had the 7th highest payroll. As the de facto GM for the Cavs, LeBron essentially assembled the Cavs teams since returning to the Cavs so if what you say is true, then LeBron has only himself to blame. Moreover, LeBron's Heat teams were almost always favored to win the NBA Championship.

[MOtorboat]

I'm not sure how that can be true or accurate given that LeBron's Cavs team this year had the highest payroll of ANY team in the NBA, while the Warriors had the 7th highest payroll. As the de facto GM for the Cavs, LeBron essentially assembled the Cavs teams since returning to the Cavs so if what you say is true, then LeBron has only himself to blame. Moreover, LeBron's Heat teams were almost always favored to win the NBA Championship.

False.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19625907/2017-nba-finals-lebron-james-legacy-intact-much-michael-jordans


James has been to the Finals eight times, six of those as the Vegas underdog. Give that poker hand to anyone else in NBA history and see how many come up with three titles. See how many more could've been so statistically dominant in defeat as James has been.

[MOtorboat]

The next sentence in that story is also telling.


We constantly hear about Jordan being a spotless 6-0 in the Finals, but we don't hear that Jordan was 6-7 in getting to the Finals in his 13 postseasons, and James is now 8-4 in his 12 postseasons.

[BroncoWave]

People whose only argument is "6-0 in finals" aren't really intelligent enough to have this discussion with.

[MNPatsFan]

False.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19625907/2017-nba-finals-lebron-james-legacy-intact-much-michael-jordansPlease explain how my primary statement is false.

Here are the payrolls for the top seven NBA teams this season:

1. Cleveland $128,492,467 $125,214,676 $125,639,481 $81,144,582 $0
2. Portland $119,732,234 $137,343,153 $119,918,760 $116,763,587 $60,981,105
3. LA Clippers $114,756,766 $108,406,193 $57,403,025 $0 $0
4. San Antonio $112,017,779 $90,023,910 $52,445,203 $21,329,750 $0
5. Memphis $110,118,520 $92,188,766 $83,251,936 $83,209,835 $34,502,130
6. Toronto $108,335,030 $77,356,147 $67,624,301 $45,357,951 $27,739,975
7. Golden State $107,526,542 $65,282,124 $36,458,290 $18,539,130 $0

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/

With regard to my second statement, Miami was favored in 2011 against the Mavericks and 2013 against the Spurs. Moreover, Miami should have been favored against OKC in 2012 because they were the better team. I'm also not sure why the Heat weren't favored in 2014 against the Spurs.

Finally, LeBron has been the de facto gm of the Cavs since rejoining them and built the Cavs teams that have lost two of the last three NBA Championships. As a result, LeBron isn't entitled to any sympathy for the fact that the Cavs teams he built may have been the underdogs in those NBA Championships.

[MOtorboat]

Please explain how my primary statement is false.

Here are the payrolls for the top seven NBA teams this season:


http://hoopshype.com/salaries/

With regard to my second statement, Miami was favored in 2011 against the Mavericks and 2013 against the Spurs. Moreover, Miami should have been favored against OKC in 2012 because they were the better team. I'm also not sure why the Heat weren't favored in 2014 against the Spurs.

Finally, LeBron has been the de facto gm of the Cavs since rejoining them and built the Cavs teams that have lost two of the last three NBA Championships. As a result, LeBron isn't entitled to any sympathy for the fact that the Cavs teams he built may have been the underdogs in those NBA Championships.

I wasn't disputing payroll. Payroll is also not an indication of level of play, anyway.

His Miami teams were favored twice and underdogs twice, so your statement that they were "always favored" just isn't true.

[BroncoJoe]

Stupid argument is stupid.

LBJ is one of the greatest ever to play. Like it or not.

I'm not interested in "who's the best ever" in the least bit.

[Northman]

I am, Jordan is the best ever. :)

[DenBronx]

I am, Jordan is the best ever. :)

Agreed and imo it isn't even close.

[BroncoWave]

Nostalgia is a powerful thing. It's the whole "Things were way better back in my day" effect.

[BroncoJoe]

Nostalgia is a powerful thing. It's the whole "Things were way better back in my day" effect.

Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Jordan is arguably one of, if not the greatest players ever. This statement is why these arguments are just dumb.

This is not a slight on LeBron either. I'd list them as 1a and 1b. You decide which one is which.

[BroncoWave]

Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Jordan is arguably one of, if not the greatest players ever. This statement is why these arguments are just dumb.

This is not a slight on LeBron either. I'd list them as 1a and 1b. You decide which one is which.

I'm talking about the people who say there is no way Jordan could ever be touched as greatest ever, or that LeBron isn't even in his stratosphere. Those people are blinded by their love for Jordan if they will never accept that anyone could be in his league. Those are the people I'm talking about.

[BroncoWave]

Agreed and imo it isn't even close.

Like this post. It's perfectly rational to still say Jordan is the best ever, but if you're saying it's not even close then you just aren't being objective. It's definitely close now.

[BeefStew25]

If Lebron is on TV, people don't stop what they are doing to watch.

When the bulls were on, it was an event.

[BroncoWave]

If Lebron is on TV, people don't stop what they are doing to watch.

When the bulls were on, it was an event.

Ok?

[Nomad]

He's probably 8-0 also. I'll take Mike.

I can't debate because I stopped watching basketball when most of that era retired. I do agree MJ would have had more rings if he didn't venture to play baseball.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I can't debate because I stopped watching basketball when most of that era retired. I do agree MJ would have had more rings if he didn't venture to play baseball.

Maybe, the Rockets were pretty dominant during that 2 year run.

[Nomad]

Maybe, the Rockets were pretty dominant during that 2 year run.

Yep. We'll never know how things would have turned out.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Ok?

Just a little context since you were like what 9 at the time?

[Timmy!]

Just a little context since you were like what 9 at the time?

https://media.tenor.com/images/a4e3586ee92fa8a02f22df1612876b9a/tenor.gif




Also, MJ>LBJ

[Buff]

LBJ needs a song and then they're equal:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0AGiq9j_Ak

[BeefStew25]

Ok?

Agreed. Jordan better.

[BeefStew25]

Just a little context since you were like what 9 at the time?

Pubes were a decade out.

[turftoad]

If Lebron is on TV, people don't stop what they are doing to watch.

When the bulls were on, it was an event.

Very true. I believe basketball was bigger back then also.

[Nomad]

If Lebron is on TV, people don't stop what they are doing to watch.

When the bulls were on, it was an event.

This is very true. Even as a fan of the Jazz back then, I'd always make sure to watch the Bulls.

[Nomad]

The Spurs were the equivalent to the Oakland Raiders to me.....sorry Slick. It was Stockton to Malone:D

[Poet]

Jordan was an all-time great defender (10 NBA first-team and one time DPOTY). LBJ is not on his level in that regard.

Jordan was a better scorer in an era that allowed handchecking and better rim protection. So Jordan is superior as an offensive player and a defensive player.

You don't have to compare postseason accolades. What I'll say for LBJ is this - no single player on his team overcomes the Spurs the first time. And when he first played the Warriors with a busted and injured team...no one is winning that one, either. But, if we are going to write things out of history, then it's fair to point out how the Spurs choked away a win the first time they played against Miami, and that the Warriors choked away their win two years ago (now).

For another frame of reference, LBJ passed MJ in postseason points this year...with eleven more games played.

And if the response is 'well Jordan had better teams', stuff it. Scottie Pippen was a great player. I've not seen too many people put him in a top ten argument, let alone top twenty. The Bulls had great teams, but what put them over the top, what made them arguably the best ever, was Jordan. What's lost in the shuffle is that we forget about Jordan's passing ability, which is underrated, how good of a rebounder he was in a league filled with giants, and how dominant a defender he is. And people will say that 'well LBJ gets more assists and rebounds.'

Well, Jordan played scoring guard. LBJ plays point forward. LBJ is a forward, they're supposed to get more rebounds than a guard. When you account for everything in their game, Jordan was strictly better. Jordan beat Magic's Lakers, the bad boy pistons, and a Utah Jazz team that is considered some of the greatest teams to never win a ring. They just happened to run into the damn Jordan Bulls.

[BroncoJoe]

Jordan was an all-time great defender (10 NBA first-team and one time DPOTY). LBJ is not on his level in that regard.

Jordan was a better scorer in an era that allowed handchecking and better rim protection. So Jordan is superior as an offensive player and a defensive player.

You don't have to compare postseason accolades. What I'll say for LBJ is this - no single player on his team overcomes the Spurs the first time. And when he first played the Warriors with a busted and injured team...no one is winning that one, either. But, if we are going to write things out of history, then it's fair to point out how the Spurs choked away a win the first time they played against Miami, and that the Warriors choked away their win two years ago (now).

For another frame of reference, LBJ passed MJ in postseason points this year...with eleven more games played.

And if the response is 'well Jordan had better teams', stuff it. Scottie Pippen was a great player. I've not seen too many people put him in a top ten argument, let alone top twenty. The Bulls had great teams, but what put them over the top, what made them arguably the best ever, was Jordan. What's lost in the shuffle is that we forget about Jordan's passing ability, which is underrated, how good of a rebounder he was in a league filled with giants, and how dominant a defender he is. And people will say that 'well LBJ gets more assists and rebounds.'

Well, Jordan played scoring guard. LBJ plays point forward. LBJ is a forward, they're supposed to get more rebounds than a guard. When you account for everything in their game, Jordan was strictly better. Jordan beat Magic's Lakers, the bad boy pistons, and a Utah Jazz team that is considered some of the greatest teams to never win a ring. They just happened to run into the damn Jordan Bulls.

You just knew that Jordan would simply take over a game if it was close at the end or they were losing. He was amazing to watch, and created an excitement that really no other player (other than maybe Bird or Magic) has matched before or after. Kind of like Elway - you just knew at some point he was (most of the time) going to do what was necessary to win.

If I had to choose, I'd pick Jordan first, with LBJ a close second. But, like I said I think the argument is silly. They're both fantastic players.

[Nomad]

MJ pushed off on Russell.

[Poet]

You just knew that Jordan would simply take over a game if it was close at the end or they were losing. He was amazing to watch, and created an excitement that really no other player (other than maybe Bird or Magic) has matched before or after. Kind of like Elway - you just knew at some point he was (most of the time) going to do what was necessary to win.

If I had to choose, I'd pick Jordan first, with LBJ a close second. But, like I said I think the argument is silly. They're both fantastic players.

It's not a silly argument - we're having fun!

[BeefStew25]

MJ pushed off on Russell.

Imagine a ref blowing the whistle there.

[Poet]

Durant murdered LBJ all but one game in the finals, and got the better of him on defense, too.

There's an argument that LBJ is no longer the best player in the game right now. We said that about Jordan...when he was a wizard.

[Nomad]

Imagine a ref blowing the whistle there.

He'd be pushing up daisies.

[Slick]

Jordan's game had a style to it that LeBron doesn't have.

[BroncoJoe]

It's not a silly argument - we're having fun!

Yeah, I know. It's all part of it, and the reason for message boards. I just find the whole "who is the greatest" arguments fruitless. There will never be a consensus #1 in any sport.

[Poet]

Yeah, I know. It's all part of it, and the reason for message boards. I just find the whole "who is the greatest" arguments fruitless. There will never be a consensus #1 in any sport.

Jordan is the consensus number one in basketball. We have prisoners in the past screaming Jordan, and prisoners of the present screaming LBJ. But, when you look at production, it's obviously Jordan. Even if you give a slight edge to LBJ on the offensive side of the ball, when it comes to defense Jordan is an all-time great. LBJ is not. The gap on defense is larger than it is on offense.

I think LBJ is the second best player of his time, and he still has a shot to overcome Jordan. But, he's going to need two or three more monster seasons, more rings, and he's going to have to start playing defense again. Because I can tell you this, no one cares that he's ran into better teams when he has two other stars on his team and a great bench. No one cares. No one.

[BroncoJoe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmM1REPNg_M

[Northman]

Nostalgia is a powerful thing. It's the whole "Things were way better back in my day" effect.

Not too much different with the young honestly. When people say Manning is the greatest ever i just shake my head. While it is always subjective it does go both ways depending on the age group.

[Northman]

Jordan is the consensus number one in basketball. We have prisoners in the past screaming Jordan, and prisoners of the present screaming LBJ. But, when you look at production, it's obviously Jordan. Even if you give a slight edge to LBJ on the offensive side of the ball, when it comes to defense Jordan is an all-time great. LBJ is not. The gap on defense is larger than it is on offense.

I think LBJ is the second best player of his time, and he still has a shot to overcome Jordan. But, he's going to need two or three more monster seasons, more rings, and he's going to have to start playing defense again. Because I can tell you this, no one cares that he's ran into better teams when he has two other stars on his team and a great bench. No one cares. No one.

LBJ is a great player, no doubt about it. But as previously pointed out people dont stop to watch what LBJ does but they did when Jordan played because they knew he was going to deliver. Its not a stupid argument to me so i disagree with Joe there. You can have a lot of great QB's to play in the NFL but one in particular was the best i had ever seen and doing so many different things and his name is John Elway. I have zero shame in stating that opinion just like i have zero problem with saying the same about Michael Jordan. It just is what it is to me. No matter how many great things LBJ has done it doesnt measure up to me compared to Jordan. Call it killer instinct, call it his demeanor it doesnt matter. It just doesnt match what i saw in Michael Jordan. If it angers people that i dont think LBJ is the greatest ever i really dont care. I believe in what i see in both players and as DenBronx said its like night and day to me.

[Poet]

I don't like LBJ when he doesn't attack at the end of the game. I don't like that his propensity to go for setting up other players for success makes him too deferential. I like that he developed into a good shooter, and a more productive version of Magic Johnson.

I think that Jordan is the best scorer ever, and a dominant defender. If that's true, how isn't he the best?

[Poet]

Jordan in his prime never got outplayed for an entire series, though. When Durant made LBJ fall, and hit that pull up three in his face, Durant snatched his soul. I grew up in the nineties, in Illinois, watching Jordan. I'm super biased.

[Canmore]

Jordan in his prime never got outplayed for an entire series, though. When Durant made LBJ fall, and hit that pull up three in his face, Durant snatched his soul. I grew up in the nineties, in Illinois, watching Jordan. I'm super biased.

When it came crunch time he was money. I'm a Lakers fan (Shoot me) and he's the best I've seen.

[Northman]

When it came crunch time he was money. I'm a Lakers fan (Shoot me) and he's the best I've seen.

I feel you there being a Trailblazer fan. He crushed my hopes time and time again. I still remember him shrugging at the sidelines when they were crushing the Blazers. Dude was cold as ice. lol

[Poet]

Plus he beat up Steve Kerr for missing shots. #leadership