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Denver Native (Carol)
05-01-2017, 01:46 PM
Adam Schefter‏Verified account @AdamSchefter 3m

Former Chiefs RB Jamaal Charles scheduled to visit Broncos on Tuesday, sources tell ESPN. Broncos enthused about it. Good fit for both sides

Freyaka
05-01-2017, 01:49 PM
Would bolster the running game for 1-2 years. Not a bad pickup if it happens.

Poet
05-01-2017, 01:52 PM
I'm am preparing to go nuclear-level-too-hype-ham-salad-ham-sandwich-mega-hype!

This.must.happen.

Bronco4ever
05-01-2017, 01:52 PM
He's worth a look. We wouldn't be getting prime Jamaal Charles, but he could be effective in spot duty. And knowing how much this signing would upset Chiefs fans would be worth it.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-01-2017, 01:53 PM
The Fan will have Adam Schefter on at 1:00 to discuss this.

Valar Morghulis
05-01-2017, 01:53 PM
would love this - but only on a humble contract, prodcution from a running back can be gotten without breaking the bank, and this dude has a broken body - could be great if he stays healthy, but would not take the risk unless the contract was very team friendly

Poet
05-01-2017, 01:54 PM
Disregard everything Val just say and give him 45 million a year.

Dapper Dan
05-01-2017, 02:01 PM
He should play for free. I'm sure he has money saved up and he will get a ring. It's a win-win.

Hawgdriver
05-01-2017, 02:05 PM
If it's 2m to 2.5m a year, incentive-oriented, I like it. Not sure how familiar he is with McCoys system. Versatile guy.

ShaneFalco
05-01-2017, 02:06 PM
Chiefs planet melt down in 3,2,1

VonDoom
05-01-2017, 02:07 PM
I gotta say, I would love this. He won't be too expensive, given what some of the older RB's have gotten lately. Can be a difference maker if he's healthy, and he won't have to carry the full load.

VonDoom
05-01-2017, 02:08 PM
Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck 19m19 minutes ago

Troy Renck Retweeted Adam Schefter

Makes sense as a low-risk, high-reward signing after not drafting a do-it-all back. @DenverChannel

Cameron Wolfe‏Verified account @CameronWolfe 7m7 minutes ago

#Broncos didn't get a splash RB in the draft. Obviously checking on Jamaal Charles' knees. Could be worth the risk if health, $ is right.

GEM
05-01-2017, 02:16 PM
Any idea why CJ is 30 # over his previous weight right now? Stokely just said he looks fat, not muscle gain.

Hawgdriver
05-01-2017, 02:23 PM
Any idea why CJ is 30 # over his previous weight right now? Stokely just said he looks fat, not muscle gain.

I heard he checked in last week at 223, his play range is 217-222

GEM
05-01-2017, 02:27 PM
I heard he checked in last week at 223, his play range is 217-222

Then what the hell is Stokes talking about? :rolleyes: Little jerk. :laugh:

Then again, just found this:

http://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2017/03/29/denver-broncos-news-is-c-j-anderson-overweight/
10481

turftoad
05-01-2017, 02:32 PM
He would be a good 3rd down option.

Rick
05-01-2017, 02:36 PM
As a rotational, third down back? Sure.

He should work fine in Mccoy's system.

Just need to keep expectations lowered, as in we would be getting a quality, rotational guy, not a probowl back.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-01-2017, 02:37 PM
Adam Schefter said Jamaal is great at picking up the blitz

VonDoom
05-01-2017, 02:40 PM
I heard he checked in last week at 223, his play range is 217-222

I can't remember the exact numbers, but that sounds about right. This was directly from Anderson at the press conference last week. Doesn't seem like he's out of shape.

WARHORSE
05-01-2017, 02:44 PM
Hate to say I told you so.......so I wont. heh heh

I hope the man has some tread left. KICK KC IN THE MOUTH!

NightTerror218
05-01-2017, 03:55 PM
Good chance he would get more reps than cj if healthy.

G_Money
05-01-2017, 04:21 PM
SiriusXM NFL Radio‏Verified account
@SiriusXMNFL

Vance Joseph: Jamaal Charles coming in tomorrow for a physical and a visit. If he's right and it fits for us, we'll make it happen.

Buff
05-01-2017, 04:36 PM
If he still possesses top end speed then he'd bring an element that we've been sorely missing for a number of years...

Along those same lines - I really want us to pursue Gary Barnidge. The TE productivity has been completely lacking since JT left and Butt is going to need a year to get up to speed.

Cugel
05-01-2017, 04:47 PM
CJ notoriously has trouble with his weight. And he does a lot better when he's competing for a job too. Don't know why that is, but I'd bring in Jamaal Charles, just for the effect that will have in galvanizing CJ to get in shape and start the season on fire, instead of limping into the season and only playing well later in the year. He's a notoriously slow starter too is CJ.

IF Jamaal's knees are at all OK (which seems to be the case from the video he put out), then sign him. They need a veteran RB who can provide a home run threat. And Jamaal Charles can provide that.

Az Snake
05-01-2017, 07:26 PM
High incentive laden contract, heck yeah.
I'm all for giving Jamaal a chance.
He's a fighter with something to prove and wants a ring.
Hope he can fully recover.
Like others have alluded, this will make KC fans squeal.

Northman
05-02-2017, 04:36 AM
If he comes cheap with a incentive laden deal than sure. But with his injury history and tendency to cough up the ball i wouldnt break the bank for him. I would treat it like we did for Manning's last year.

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 12:36 PM
If.he is healthy can't we just cut anderson? Henderson is.a anderson clone but has much better moves and speed. And just roll with Charles, booker, and HOP (Henderson nickname)

Poet
05-02-2017, 12:38 PM
No....we don't cut Anderson....he's proven to be good. So good that he ran well even with our bad line last year....no!

slim
05-02-2017, 12:43 PM
No!!!

Davii
05-02-2017, 12:48 PM
He's going to sign.

slim
05-02-2017, 12:49 PM
What is he going to sign?

Mike
05-02-2017, 12:51 PM
No....we don't cut Anderson....he's proven to be good. So good that he ran well even with our bad line last year....no!

I think he gets cut next year though.

VonDoom
05-02-2017, 01:16 PM
No....we don't cut Anderson....he's proven to be good. So good that he ran well even with our bad line last year....no!

Yeah, I don't want to cut Anderson. That's crazy talk to me right now. Anderson was never a speed guy, though. Charles, if healthy, can be a great pass catcher out of the backfield, use his speed to make big plays, and pass protect. There's certainly a place for him here.

I'm as big a CJ Anderson fan as anyone here, and his cap hit is only $3 million this year. But if he's hurt again and/or ineffective, there's a good chance he's not here next year, when his cap hit is $4.5 million with no dead money. Kind of a make or break year for him.

VonDoom
05-02-2017, 01:17 PM
He's going to sign.

As long as we're happy with his medical situation, then yeah, I think so. Sounds like that would be the only thing stopping us at this point.

dogfish
05-02-2017, 02:30 PM
If.he is healthy can't we just cut anderson? Henderson is.a anderson clone but has much better moves and speed. And just roll with Charles, booker, and HOP (Henderson nickname)

you see, this shit is why no one likes your dumb ass, or takes you seriously. . .



if charles is healthy, he'd be a great signing. . . git 'er done, john. . .

BroncoWave
05-02-2017, 02:35 PM
you see, this shit is why no one likes your dumb ass, or takes you seriously. . .



if charles is healthy, he'd be a great signing. . . git 'er done, john. . .

Agreed we won't cut him this year, but I think VonDoom makes a good point that this is kinda a make or break year for him. If he has another injury-plagued season this year, I don't see us keeping him around at 4.5 mil next year.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-02-2017, 02:36 PM
Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck 2m

Charles has been at #Broncos facility. Players have seen him. Again, key is passing physical to get to finish line on a deal @DenverChannel

underrated29
05-02-2017, 02:50 PM
Agreed we won't cut him this year, but I think VonDoom makes a good point that this is kinda a make or break year for him. If he has another injury-plagued season this year, I don't see us keeping him around at 4.5 mil next year.



Yep, I am not sure CJ will be back next year anyway, unless he just flat out lights it up this year. Which he could no doubt, my gut says, he is gone next year, we draft another RB next year- Maybe Nick chubb??? And roll with Book, Charles (im assuming he gets a 2 year deal) Henderson, and Pierce, + the new draft pick.

Slick
05-02-2017, 02:52 PM
Two a's and two l's in Jamaall? Weird.

underrated29
05-02-2017, 02:54 PM
no she spelt it wrong

Chillez
05-02-2017, 03:11 PM
This is great pickup by Denver. Charles can take to the house at anytime huge homerun threat.

VonDoom
05-02-2017, 03:20 PM
Yep, I am not sure CJ will be back next year anyway, unless he just flat out lights it up this year. Which he could no doubt, my gut says, he is gone next year, we draft another RB next year- Maybe Nick chubb??? And roll with Book, Charles (im assuming he gets a 2 year deal) Henderson, and Pierce, + the new draft pick.

Side note to this, I guess - how many RB make the roster this year? If we sign Charles, we're looking at Anderson, Booker, Charles, and I would assume Henderson (though maybe we can him through to the PS?) I don't see Pierce making it. Is Juwan Thompson still on this team? I can't imagine he makes it either. And I assume we're keeping Janovich as a FB, even in the new offense. Four RB and one FB seems like a lot given our alleged "pass first" approach.

Buff
05-02-2017, 03:25 PM
Side note to this, I guess - how many RB make the roster this year? If we sign Charles, we're looking at Anderson, Booker, Charles, and I would assume Henderson (though maybe we can him through to the PS?) I don't see Pierce making it. Is Juwan Thompson still on this team? I can't imagine he makes it either. And I assume we're keeping Janovich as a FB, even in the new offense. Four RB and one FB seems like a lot given our alleged "pass first" approach.

Thompson is likely gone. Booker's production from 2016 could be replaced by any RB off the streets - he is likely going to be battling for the #3 slot to see who stays active on a week to week basis with Henderson. This all assumes we make it official with JC.

olathebroncofan
05-02-2017, 03:28 PM
What happened to Forsett? did he just get a one year deal?

VonDoom
05-02-2017, 03:39 PM
What happened to Forsett? did he just get a one year deal?

Yeah, he was only picked up on waivers in December last year. I don't think they had any long term plan, especially with Kubiak gone now.

VonDoom
05-02-2017, 03:40 PM
Thompson is likely gone. Booker's production from 2016 could be replaced by any RB off the streets - he is likely going to be battling for the #3 slot to see who stays active on a week to week basis with Henderson. This all assumes we make it official with JC.

I agree that Booker wasn't impressive last year, but I don't see us giving up on him that quickly. I think he gets a chance to show something this year before he has to worry about being cut.

underrated29
05-02-2017, 03:57 PM
Side note to this, I guess - how many RB make the roster this year? If we sign Charles, we're looking at Anderson, Booker, Charles, and I would assume Henderson (though maybe we can him through to the PS?) I don't see Pierce making it. Is Juwan Thompson still on this team? I can't imagine he makes it either. And I assume we're keeping Janovich as a FB, even in the new offense. Four RB and one FB seems like a lot given our alleged "pass first" approach.



Last year we were really heavy at WR and TE. I suspect this year we may lessen that a bit, without looking at the entire roster Something like:

CJ
Book
Charles
(maybe the rookie- I was not that impressed honestly)
Janovich

so 4-5 at the RB/FB dept....The rest are cut or PS

WR:
DT
ES
Henderson
Latimer
Mckenzie
(No fowler, no taylor, no noorwood)

TE:
Butt
Derby
IRman
(No green, no phillips, no Marlon Brown convert)

OL:
I suspect the line will be Bolles,Leary,Paradis,Garcia,Watson---with Tysam, schofield,mcovern as backups, maybe one or 2 others....Probably lighter there this year as we will have our T's (please god) figured out.

I also think we will carry all 3 QBs, unless we can IR Kelly. I do not think they risk him on the PS

Denver Native (Carol)
05-02-2017, 04:05 PM
James Palmer‏Verified account @JamesPalmerTV 3m

My understanding is Jamaal Charles is still in the #Broncos building. Arrived this morning, left to do medical evaluations, then returned.

G_Money
05-02-2017, 04:21 PM
Adam Schefter‏Verified account @AdamSchefter 1m1 minute ago
More
Broncos and Jamaal Charles now have agreed to terms, per source.

Buff
05-02-2017, 04:23 PM
Look at G scooping Carol and VonDoom. He's in midseason form after the draft.

Would be great if this somehow comes back to screw KC. :D

G_Money
05-02-2017, 04:23 PM
So it's done, and welcome to the Broncos, Jamaal Charles.

Has to suck a little for De'Angelo Henderson, but the practice squad is still a fine place to land your rookie year. It definitely gives Denver more game-ready players (assuming Charles is ready and healthy) and will keep the QBs from having as many blown pass-protections as rookie RBs can bring.

G_Money
05-02-2017, 04:24 PM
Look at G scooping Carol and VonDoom. He's in midseason form after the draft.

Would be great if this somehow comes back to screw KC. :D

You gotta put in the work in the offseason if you ever expect to scoop Carol on anything. Just staying in the twitter gym and working on my game. #stayhumble

Denver Native (Carol)
05-02-2017, 04:27 PM
James Palmer‏Verified account @JamesPalmerTV now

James Palmer Retweeted Ian Rapoport

Broncos wanted to take a close look at the medical and after that done deal.

James Palmer added,
Ian RapoportVerified account @RapSheet
The #Broncos have struck a deal with RB Jamaal Charles for 1 year, up to $3.75M, source said

chazoe60
05-02-2017, 04:28 PM
Championship!!

Timmy!
05-02-2017, 04:30 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/8fen5LSZcHQ5O/giphy.gif

Denver Native (Carol)
05-02-2017, 04:35 PM
John Elway‏Verified account @johnelway

Excited to have Jamaal Charles join the Broncos. A great addition to our backfield, and we're thrilled we won't have to play against him!

BroncoJoe
05-02-2017, 04:36 PM
Hated the dude when he was with KC, but love him now!

Nice pick up, Broncos!

Neil Smith ring a bell? CHAMPIONSHIP!

G_Money
05-02-2017, 04:46 PM
1 year, 3.75 million AFTER incentives? Not bad. Let's Charles show he's still got legs so he can get that last contract w/ guaranteed money next year while the Broncos risk nothing but a roster spot.

VonDoom
05-02-2017, 04:49 PM
Look at G scooping Carol and VonDoom. He's in midseason form after the draft.

Would be great if this somehow comes back to screw KC. :D

Hey, I'm busy making dinner here

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 04:50 PM
Charles...

Age 30, born Dec. 27, 1986.

Career attempts - 1332, 7260 yds, 5.5 y/a. 408 tgts, 285 receptions, 8.6 y/r.

Last year with significant carries - 2014, pro bowl, 206 carries, 1033 yds (5.0), 11 AV.

Fumble rate: 26 in 1500 touches, one per 57 (red flag).

4.38 speed.

I'd like to know the guaranteed and base, don't like his fumble rate, but his versatility is a plus. Nice to have that speed, and he should be fresh from only 100 touches in '15 and 14 touches in '16.

turftoad
05-02-2017, 04:53 PM
Charles...

Age 30, born Dec. 27, 1986.

Career attempts - 1332, 7260 yds, 5.5 y/a. 408 tgts, 285 receptions, 8.6 y/r.

Last year with significant carries - 2014, pro bowl, 206 carries, 1033 yds (5.0), 11 AV.

Fumble rate: 26 in 1500 touches, one per 57 (red flag).

4.38 speed.

I'd like to know the guaranteed and base, don't like his fumble rate, but his versatility is a plus. Nice to have that speed, and he should be fresh from only 100 touches in '15 and 14 touches in '16.

With his injuries, I doubt he still has that kind of speed but he's still quick.

slim
05-02-2017, 04:56 PM
I need some time to wrap my head around this. The enemy is now one of us?

Denver Native (Carol)
05-02-2017, 05:00 PM
Mike Klis‏Verified account @MikeKlis 26m

Broncos will be cautious w/ Jamaal Charles. He's cleared to practice now but might be training camp before Broncos turn him loose. #9sports

Mike Klis‏Verified account @MikeKlis 27m

Jamaal Charles has a one-year, $900K deal w/ $100,000 workout bonus and chance to earn up to $3.75M with 46-man bonus, incentives. #9sports

slim
05-02-2017, 05:02 PM
I guess Neil Smith worked out, for us I mean.....not for KC

Krugan
05-02-2017, 05:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljKVNHzBiSs

Thats all i can say here

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:15 PM
John elway has done it! He has had a ******* awesome off season. The legit of speed and play.makers.all across the offense is ridiculous now. And the OL is legit.

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljKVNHzBiSs

Thats all i can say here

What are you implying? Jamaal Charles is a beast, I do not think he is finished.by any means, he might not be 4.3 anymore but he's every bit of 4.4 guaranteed. I can't wait to see this offense.

slim
05-02-2017, 05:19 PM
Splitting time with CJ will be a boon to both players.

Krugan
05-02-2017, 05:23 PM
What are you implying? Jamaal Charles is a beast, I do not think he is finished.by any means, he might not be 4.3 anymore but he's every bit of 4.4 guaranteed. I can't wait to see this offense.

Did you watch the video?

Scoop and score roby... Should say all you need to about charles.

Cugel
05-02-2017, 05:23 PM
Chiefs planet melt down in 3,2,1

They're laughing on Twitter right now, saying "It's fine if the Broncos add a broken down has-been with bad knees." But, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in KC when he starts ripping off TDs for the Broncos. Just imagine seeing #25 line up against them, that is going to make their heads explode. Just Kabooom!

10484

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:24 PM
What is a boon.

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:25 PM
Did you watch the video?

Scoop and score roby... Should say all you need to about charles.

He had a bad fumble. Was a great rip by roby, I don't recall Charles being a fumbler in his career though.

swaiy
05-02-2017, 05:26 PM
They're laughing on Twitter right now, saying "It's fine if the Broncos add a broken down has-been with bad knees." But, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in KC when he starts ripping off TDs for the Broncos. Just imagine seeing #25 line up against them, that is going to make their heads explode. Just Kabooom!

10484

They see that all the time. Chris harris!

Denver Native (Carol)
05-02-2017, 05:26 PM
Did you watch the video?

Scoop and score roby... Should say all you need to about charles.

So, you are judging Charles career by one negative play??????

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:27 PM
CJ.anderson has.been injured and missing games way often than Charles, cj hasn't been healthy for a season his entire career. I'll give Charles the benefit of doubt, he had to impress our coaches and medical staff for elway to not allow him out the building during his visit.

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:28 PM
So, you are judging Charles career by one negative play??????

Right, Charles was an elite RB until his injury.

slim
05-02-2017, 05:29 PM
What is a boon.

A word in the English language. It means helpful or beneficial. Like "Yash was a boon to the revenue at the bath house"

Cugel
05-02-2017, 05:30 PM
What are you implying? Jamaal Charles is a beast, I do not think he is finished.by any means, he might not be 4.3 anymore but he's every bit of 4.4 guaranteed. I can't wait to see this offense.

The thing some fans can't understand is that Charles doesn't have to be the work-horse back of past seasons. The Broncos want him to be a change of pace back, 3rd down back, catch passes out of the backfield & spell CJ Anderson. In that role he's a HUGE pickup.

This role is completely different than what the Chiefs expected from him.

It often happens in the NFL that a player may be washed up with one team, but still able to play for another team. Charles could never stay in KC and have a reduced role - no more so than TD could have stayed in Denver and been a 2nd string back. Here, he has no baggage. He doesn't need to rush for 1000 yards and 9 TDs and add another 300 yards receiving and 5 more TDs - like he did in 2014. He just needs to be productive.

And there's every indication that he's as healthy as he's been in years, his legs are fresh, and he can be another weapon in what is shaping up to be a much improved Denver offensive arsenal.

slim
05-02-2017, 05:31 PM
Lynch12 was a boon to the spread of HIV.

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:31 PM
Now that he's finally fully healthy unlike the last couple year's I am anxious to see him in action.

Cugel
05-02-2017, 05:32 PM
A word in the English language. It means helpful or beneficial. Like "Yash was a boon to the revenue at the bath house"

This presupposes that Yash actually bathes.

"Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!"
"Objection sustained!"

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:33 PM
The thing some fans can't understand is that Charles doesn't have to be the work-horse back of past seasons. The Broncos want him to be a change of pace back, 3rd down back, catch passes out of the backfield & spell CJ Anderson. In that role he's a HUGE pickup.

This role is completely different than what the Chiefs expected from him.

It often happens in the NFL that a player may be washed up with one team, but still able to play for another team. Charles could never stay in KC and have a reduced role - no more so than TD could have stayed in Denver and been a 2nd string back. Here, he has no baggage. He doesn't need to rush for 1000 yards and 9 TDs and add another 300 yards receiving and 5 more TDs - like he did in 2014. He just needs to be productive.

And there's every indication that he's as healthy as he's been in years, his legs are fresh, and he can be another weapon in what is shaping up to be a much improved Denver offensive arsenal.

Cugel with a good post, good job. 100% correct.

Krugan
05-02-2017, 05:33 PM
He had a bad fumble. Was a great rip by roby, I don't recall Charles being a fumbler in his career though.

1 fumble every 57 carries, the stats are in this thread.

It amazes me how some players get a pass, while others who havent had a chance to progress dont. Fandom i guess.

Cugel
05-02-2017, 05:33 PM
They see that all the time. Chris harris!

"#25 taking it to the house!"
Mike drop! :laugh:

Krugan
05-02-2017, 05:34 PM
So, you are judging Charles career by one negative play??????

No carol, its a vision often seen with charles.

He has been a fumbler, who hasnt produced in 2 years, with bad knees, in a position that is for the young.

Cugel
05-02-2017, 05:36 PM
Cugel with a good post, good job. 100% correct.

Just wait till we see Jake Butts on the field. There are a lot of teams that will be chewing their tongues and glaring daggers at their scouting department. "Explain to me again why you insisted that we pass on this guy 4 times?"

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:37 PM
1 fumble every 57 carries, the stats are in this thread.

It amazes me how some players get a pass, while others who havent had a chance to progress dont. Fandom i guess.

Who hasn't had a chance to progress?

Lile cugel said he wont be asked to be the work horse here. His carries will be down, his work load as a whole will be down, and hell bring explosive chunk plays to the offense. Something anderson and booker cannot, Charles and Henderson are our explosive guy's out of the backfield.

I think Anderson is on his way out though.

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:38 PM
Just wait till we see Jake Butts on the field. There are a lot of teams that will be chewing their tongues and glaring daggers at their scouting department. "Explain to me again why you insisted that we pass on this guy 4 times?"

Jake and Jeff are going to be good tight ends for us.

Krugan
05-02-2017, 05:41 PM
Who hasn't had a chance to progress?

Lile cugel said he wont be asked to be the work horse here. His carries will be down, his work load as a whole will be down, and hell bring explosive chunk plays to the offense. Something anderson and booker cannot, Charles and Henderson are our explosive guy's out of the backfield.

I think Anderson is on his way out though.

It was a "in general" statement, the allowed to progress.

Gonne just go ahead and disagree on Charles. Not going to change my mind about this one.

NightTerror218
05-02-2017, 05:44 PM
Love this signing. He will kick booker to #3. He can spell Cj and is a low risk high reward signing. And cj has always ran better when he was on cusp of not starting against hillman.

slim
05-02-2017, 05:45 PM
With a boulder on my shoulder
Feeling kinda older, I tripped the merry-go-round
With this very unpleasing, sneezing and wheezing
The calliope crashed to the ground

Cugel
05-02-2017, 05:47 PM
No carol, its a vision often seen with charles.

He has been a fumbler, who hasnt produced in 2 years, with bad knees, in a position that is for the young.

Who cares if he's been healthy in the past? The medical staff just gave him an MRI and they poked and prodded his knee and then they passed him medically. They said "he's OK to go."

His knee was hurt in the past. But, do you suppose the Broncos would have signed him if he wasn't healthy now? Elway isn't out there collecting "NFL Washed-Up Veteran Player Cards" for some game. He wants productive players.

And it's not as if the Broncos are desperate at the RB position either. They have CJ coming back from injury, plus Booker who could be much better in a new system, and they just drafted D'Angelo Henderson in the 6th round. He has first rate stop and go ability to make guys miss and be productive:



IN OUR VIEW: Henderson is more than just a big fish in a small pond. His versatility as a runner, receiver and returner warrants Day Three consideration and could help him carve out a nice "little" career at the next level.

COMPARES TO: Danny Woodhead, San Diego Chargers: There is only one man in the history of college football with a longer steak of touchdowns scored in games than Henderson and that is the similarly built and determined Woodhead, who scored in 38 consecutive games for D-II Chadron State. Like Woodhead, Henderson's value lies with the shiftiness he provides as a runner and receiver, as well as underrated power due to their compact frames and leg drive.

He's another weapon. Then they add Jamaal Charles on top of all this? Right now, the combo of CJ & Charles is one of the best 1-2 RB combos in the NFL. And that will remain true even though Jamaal Charles isn't a 1000 yard runner any more.

This isn't your Grandma's NFL where 1 Bell-Cow RB does everything and plays every down. It's all about creating mis-matches and adding Charles gives the Broncos the ability to add some serious mismatches against LBs.

Imagine you line up with a power formation with Charles. The defense sees this personnel grouping and they have to go heavy - with their beefier LBs to stuff the run. Then they line Charles up outside and he runs a slant route against a LB who has no chance. That's the kind of thing you can do with him, without needing him to be a 3 down back.

The Broncos don't even HAVE a 3 down back any more. They will all be situational backs who bring different skill sets to get the job done. All will create different mis-match problems. CJ is your main RB, Booker is that short-yardage just run straight ahead guy - he was a fish out of water in the ZBS because it requires RBs to read and react - and cut back. Booker is a guy who just puts his head down and goes. Don't give him too many choices or he gets confused. Add inferior OL play and he had a BAD year.

That doesn't mean he'll have a bad year this year though. It's all about knowing your role, and forcing the defense into bad matchups. And Charles helps a LOT with that!

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 05:49 PM
It was a "in general" statement, the allowed to progress.

Gonne just go ahead and disagree on Charles. Not going to change my mind about this one.

Unless he has improved his ball-security game, I predict a percentage of the folks singing his praises right now will come around to your way of thinking in about 50 touches or so. :lol:

slim
05-02-2017, 05:51 PM
Unless he has improved his ball-security game, I predict a percentage of the folks singing his praises right now will come around to your way of thinking in about 50 touches or so. :lol:

I will be a little surprised if he makes the team

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:53 PM
Love this signing. He will kick booker to #3. He can spell Cj and is a low risk high reward signing. And cj has always ran better when he was on cusp of not starting against hillman.

Will CJ stay healthy this year? Dude scares me with his getting injured every single year.

slim
05-02-2017, 05:54 PM
Will CJ stay healthy this year? Dude scares me with his getting injured every single year.

You should look at Charles" recent imjury history

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:54 PM
People don't respect one of the king RBs the last 6 year's or so..... I suppose there's nothing left to do but sit back and watch.

NightTerror218
05-02-2017, 05:54 PM
Will CJ stay healthy this year? Dude scares me with his getting injured every single year.

Prob why we will have 4 RB on roster.

Cugel
05-02-2017, 05:55 PM
Love this signing. He will kick booker to #3. He can spell Cj and is a low risk high reward signing. And cj has always ran better when he was on cusp of not starting against hillman.

That's true about CJ. He has had a history of slow starts - except when he was competing against Hillman. Well, now he can't afford to be sluggish this season or he'll see his minutes go down and Charles take his starting job. That could happen anyway, depending on how they intend using CJ this year.

Once again, the whole concept of "starting Back, backup RB" is obsolete. Teams are getting two or three different types of backs to create mismatch problems. So, unless you have an Ezekiel Elliot who can do everything and is so good you never want to take him off the field, "starting" is over-rated.

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:55 PM
You should look at Charles" recent imjury history

2 fluke year's vs cj being hurt every year he's been a pro is not comparable

slim
05-02-2017, 05:57 PM
People don't respect one of the king RBs the last 6 year's or so..... I suppose there's nothing left to do but sit back and watch.

Agree. See you in August!

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 05:57 PM
Prob why we will have 4 RB on roster.

Yup We'll definitely need to keep 4, cant have cj go down, then Charles go down and be down to just one guy.

Cugel
05-02-2017, 05:59 PM
People don't respect one of the king RBs the last 6 year's or so..... I suppose there's nothing left to do but sit back and watch.

It is really strange seeing people reacting negatively to this signing. I just took a walk in the park and I was listening to 104.3 The Fan and they were going on and on about what a great pick this is, and how the Broncos could use Charles in different roles and how this could create mismatch problems for defenses, and what role CJ and Booker will have, etc.

I was feeling great about this draft. The Broncos have filled every single need they had:

1. LT - check
2. TE - Butt check.
3. WR - check
4. DE - check
5. Reserve RB and returner , check.

About the only thing they didn't get was an ILB. And then I come here and expect people to be celebrating a great pickup - and all this blather and gloom! :tsk:

slim
05-02-2017, 06:00 PM
It is really strange seeing people reacting negatively to this signing. I just took a walk in the park and I was listening to 104.3 The Fan and they were going on and on about what a great pick this is, and how the Broncos could use Charles in different roles and how this could create mismatch problems for defenses, and what role CJ and Booker will have, etc.

I was feeling great about this draft. The Broncos have filled every single need they had:

1. LT - check
2. TE - Butt check.
3. WR - check
4. DE - check
5. Reserve RB and returner , check.

About the only thing they didn't get was an ILB. And then I come here and expect people to be celebrating a great pickup - and all this blather and gloom! :tsk:

There is a reason he was available.

VonDoom
05-02-2017, 06:01 PM
Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck 11m11 minutes ago

#Broncos Charles "It's not about money. It's about proving people wrong. I see things I want to do." @DenverChannel

Cameron Wolfe‏Verified account @CameronWolfe 12m12 minutes ago

Jamaal Charles: "I'm good to go." Said he's been getting treatment, massages on his knee. He has confidence in his knees.

Cameron Wolfe‏Verified account @CameronWolfe 18m18 minutes ago

Jamaal Charles on if it'll be difficult to play for #Broncos: "Nope."

Cameron Wolfe‏Verified account @CameronWolfe 2m2 minutes ago

It was a lot of salt on this 'nope' too. If he's healthy, that 1st K.C. game (10/30 in K.C.) is gonna be something to watch.

Andrew Mason‏Verified account @MaseDenver 15m15 minutes ago

Jamaal Charles: "I'm just happy I get to play [the Chiefs] twice a year."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 16m16 minutes ago

Charles on being released by Chiefs: "It's behind me. ... They say it's a business, but it's personal as well. It is what is."

Cecil Lammey‏Verified account @CecilLammey 20m20 minutes ago

Jamaal Charles #Broncos @1043TheFan "I always wanted to play for Denver growing up. John Elway was my favorite player.

Cugel
05-02-2017, 06:02 PM
2 fluke year's vs cj being hurt every year he's been a pro is not comparable

And it's a new year. Unless there's some indication that Charles is "washed up" or that his knee cartilage is softer than a baby's bottom, I'm going to assume the Broncos coaches know what they are getting.

VonDoom
05-02-2017, 06:02 PM
Cecil Lammey‏Verified account @CecilLammey 18m18 minutes ago

Jamaal Charles #Broncos @1043TheFan "I love CJ Anderson's game. I just want to help this team, push each other to get better."

Cj Anderson‏Verified account @cjandersonb22 12m12 minutes ago

Cj Anderson Retweeted Cameron Wolfe

His game is super amazing excited to have my big brother join us pushing each other every day to be great ��

NightTerror218
05-02-2017, 06:02 PM
There is a reason he was available.

Low risk high reward. When healthy he is easy 1000 rusher......with 3-5 fumbles with 2-3 lost.

Cugel
05-02-2017, 06:04 PM
Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck 11m11 minutes ago

#Broncos Charles "It's not about money. It's about proving people wrong. I see things I want to do." @DenverChannel

Cameron Wolfe‏Verified account @CameronWolfe 12m12 minutes ago

Jamaal Charles: "I'm good to go." Said he's been getting treatment, massages on his knee. He has confidence in his knees.

Cameron Wolfe‏Verified account @CameronWolfe 18m18 minutes ago

Jamaal Charles on if it'll be difficult to play for #Broncos: "Nope."

Cameron Wolfe‏Verified account @CameronWolfe 2m2 minutes ago

It was a lot of salt on this 'nope' too. If he's healthy, that 1st K.C. game (10/30 in K.C.) is gonna be something to watch.

Andrew Mason‏Verified account @MaseDenver 15m15 minutes ago

Jamaal Charles: "I'm just happy I get to play [the Chiefs] twice a year."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala 16m16 minutes ago

Charles on being released by Chiefs: "It's behind me. ... They say it's a business, but it's personal as well. It is what is."

Cecil Lammey‏Verified account @CecilLammey 20m20 minutes ago

Jamaal Charles #Broncos @1043TheFan "I always wanted to play for Denver growing up. John Elway was my favorite player.

I'd say you're going to see a little something extra when he plays the Chiefs. He desperately wants to prove the Chefs wrong for getting rid of him when he feels he can still play. He's bitter about it, and I love that! :cheers:

slim
05-02-2017, 06:05 PM
Low risk high reward. When healthy he is easy 1000 rusher......with 3-5 fumbles with 2-3 lost.

Agree. Maybe we catch lighting in a bottle, maybe he doesn't make the team.

Worth a shot.

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 06:05 PM
The reason he was still available was that he was weighing all options, trying to figure out the best situation for himself.

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 06:05 PM
He clearly said he didn't want to sign until after the draft.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-02-2017, 06:07 PM
Broncos sign Jamaal Charles to 1-year contract

http://www.9news.com/sports/broncos-sign-running-back-jamaal-charles-to-one-year-deal/436118192

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 06:08 PM
And we got a guy who always wanted to be a bronco anyway :)
Let's go Jamaal! Prove them all wrong.

NightTerror218
05-02-2017, 06:08 PM
Agree. Maybe we catch lighting in a bottle, maybe he doesn't make the team.

Worth a shot.

$900k guarantee......with a max at i think $3.5 mill

VonDoom
05-02-2017, 06:09 PM
Denver Broncos‏Verified account @Broncos 3m3 minutes ago

.@jcharles25 will wear "28" in Denver.

slim
05-02-2017, 06:11 PM
Yeah, butt what number will Butt wear?

I have a jersey to buy.

Chillez
05-02-2017, 06:11 PM
Great pickup. Denver offense can be super explosive this season. This is low risk high reward type move.

Freyaka
05-02-2017, 06:33 PM
https://scontent.fmci1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/18254582_10155596639044893_1694019259_n.png?oh=d0d 01bcfd0a48bebedf11e73db8c28cf&oe=590B2E65

I can taste the salty chiefs tears now!

Slick
05-02-2017, 06:34 PM
Salty Jamaall. I like it!

ShaneFalco
05-02-2017, 06:39 PM
cool stuff.

Was super pumped when he posted that workout video, hoping he would come here.

VonDoom
05-02-2017, 07:00 PM
The Ringer did a quick little write up on this move, calling it a "no downside signing":


We don’t know exactly what the Broncos offense will look like next year under new head coach Vance Joseph and new offensive coordinator Mike McCoy, but if Charles can stay on the field, he’s versatile enough to fit whatever it is Denver decides to do. Charles is a good fit running behind power run-blocking schemes and has a one-cut-and-go style that would make him effective behind zone-blocking. He’s also an experienced outlet option for whoever is playing quarterback for Denver, and has a preternatural talent for picking his way through traffic in the screen-pass game.

https://theringer.com/jamaal-charles-broncos-signing-c223eeb9876e

LawDog
05-02-2017, 07:00 PM
A, quite bitter, KC fan friend of mine was whining that Charles was a locker room distraction and a "ball hog." Said he'd hoped that Raiders would get him so that he would be a problem for them. I just laughed. Silly chefs.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 07:09 PM
I don't know what to make of running back fumble rates. I'm going to do a quick analysis using first principles.

Let's say universal fumble rate is once per 100 touches. Charles is once per 50. Fumbles are turnovers 50 pct. A fumble is -40 yards of field position at a minimum (punt net yardage). If the fumble happens on 1 or 2d down, add 5-10 yards. So lets say it is -45 yards.

If you have a 5.5yd runner, he gets 1.5 more yards than average rb at 4.0 ypc. He would need 30 touches to make up for the 45 yards lost.

So in 100 carries, charles gains 150 yards above average, but fumbles twice, losing it once, gaining 150-45=105 yards above average.

So fumbles can be overcome by great production.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 07:10 PM
And i forgot the -22.5 yards form the average rb's one fumble.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 07:10 PM
With this dude, just realize you will get some fumbles.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-02-2017, 07:11 PM
Jamaal Charles still has 'fire in the tank'
All-Pro running back Jamaal Charles signed a one-year deal with the Broncos on Tuesday, and he looks to bring experience to a suddenly loaded backfield.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Jamaal-Charles-still-has-fire-in-the-tank/af8a4a81-4155-4a95-bc65-3d7256c425c5

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 07:13 PM
Broncos have a terrific depth chart at running back. Who can we sign at ILB for depth? Marshall/Davis is fine, but another guy for depth would be great.

Chillez
05-02-2017, 07:18 PM
I like Denver running core now tons of depth now can't wait for training camp to start.

BroncoWave
05-02-2017, 08:04 PM
Not wanting Charles because he fumbles sometimes would be like not wanting to screw a supermodel because she has a mole on her back.

Simple Jaded
05-02-2017, 08:15 PM
Broncos have a terrific depth chart at running back. Who can we sign at ILB for depth? Marshall/Davis is fine, but another guy for depth would be great.
Maualuigi.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 08:18 PM
Not wanting Charles because he fumbles sometimes would be like not wanting to screw a supermodel because she has a mole on her back.

That's a dumb metaphor. Fumbles are not eyesores. They lose you actual games.

Poet
05-02-2017, 08:21 PM
That's a dumb metaphor. Fumbles are not eyesores. They lose you actual games.

Adrian Peterson and Tiki Barber fumbled a lot. And if the body of the model is equated to production, the fumbles are an eyesore because they are vastly outweighed.

Poet
05-02-2017, 08:21 PM
Maualuigi.

He's slow, stupid, can't cover, and has never played in a 3-4.

Hard pass. He has nothing left to give.

Simple Jaded
05-02-2017, 08:38 PM
He's slow, stupid, can't cover, and has never played in a 3-4.

Hard pass. He has nothing left to give.

So wait...what are you trying to say exactly?

Poet
05-02-2017, 08:41 PM
So wait...what are you trying to say exactly?

Pizza is gud.

BroncoWave
05-02-2017, 08:42 PM
Pizza is gud.

#hype

Denver Native (Carol)
05-02-2017, 09:00 PM
DENVER — Motivated to prove critics wrong and possibly exact a slight measure of revenge on his former team, running back Jamaal Charles signed a one-year deal with the Broncos on Tuesday.

After passing a physical -- the key to moving forward -- the Broncos and Charles agreed to a low-risk, potentially high-reward deal that can max out at $3.75 million if he triggers incentives. Charles will not be counted on to be the primary back. He is viewed, at least initially, as a complementary weapon to C.J. Anderson and Devontae Booker.

At 30 years old and with only eight games on his resume the past two seasons, Charles brings a chip on his shoulder.

"It's not about money. It's about proving people wrong. I see things other people don't see (when they look at Charles' career). I see things I want to do," Charles said Tuesday on a conference call. "I believe I still play and keep up with the young guys. They say it's a business, but it's personal as well (after being released by the Chiefs). It is what is."

Charles is a welcome addition to the Broncos, who struggled to get their running game going last season. Put simply, it disappeared after Anderson tore meniscus in his right knee on Oct. 24.

rest - http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/broncos-agree-to-terms-with-jamaal-charles-

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 09:00 PM
With this dude, just realize you will get some fumbles.

And 5.5 ypc average for his career. The best of any RB ever.

DT88TheGreat
05-02-2017, 09:04 PM
rest - http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/broncos-agree-to-terms-with-jamaal-charles-

So not only are we getting this elite RB were getting this elite RB who has a fire burning inside himself to prove he's still great! And he's always wanted to be a bronco his whole life. This is going to be awesome.

NightTerror218
05-02-2017, 09:23 PM
Talmong heads and analysis love this move. This is along with draft seals a good offseason for elway. He is known for high profile signings and this is anither one.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 09:24 PM
Adrian Peterson and Tiki Barber fumbled a lot. And if the body of the model is equated to production, the fumbles are an eyesore because they are vastly outweighed.

Right, because a negative 45 yard rushing attempt is no big deal. Just a boo boo. Because we are dumb and don't evaluate things using logic.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 09:25 PM
And 5.5 ypc average for his career. The best of any RB ever.

Yeah, that's why it's a great move that should have us excited.

Poet
05-02-2017, 09:27 PM
Right, because a negative 45 yard rushing attempt is no big deal. Just a boo boo. Because we are dumb and don't evaluate things using logic.

I am using logic. You take the bad when the bad is vastly outweighed. Which his entire career shows is true. Which the Broncos obviously believe will remain true. Find a season of his where his turnovers outweighed his crazy production. And when you can't do that let that sink in. We can be aware of flaws and know that the positives will (probably) outweigh it. Because we're smart and use logic.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 09:28 PM
I am using logic. You take the bad when the bad is vastly outweighed. Which his entire career shows is true. Which the Broncos obviously believe will remain true. Find a season of his where his turnovers outweighed his crazy production. And when you can't do that let that sink in. We can be aware of flaws and know that the positives will (probably) outweigh it. Because we're smart and use logic.

You just say this without demonstrating it. You just posit that fumbles are ok because hype. Super lazy.

Poet
05-02-2017, 09:40 PM
You just say this without demonstrating it. You just posit that fumbles are ok because hype. Super lazy.

We both know what his career stats are. It's not lazy to expect someone in a conversation to have basic knowledge of the topic. Stop pawning your flaws on me. If you follow football, you know who Charles as and what he can do. FFS, all you've essentially said is 'sometimes he fumbles more than other backs historically'. Wow! Great shit! Well, historically, he's a ******* huge producer of yards. But we both know that.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 09:52 PM
We both know what his career stats are. It's not lazy to expect someone in a conversation to have basic knowledge of the topic. Stop pawning your flaws on me. If you follow football, you know who Charles as and what he can do. FFS, all you've essentially said is 'sometimes he fumbles more than other backs historically'. Wow! Great shit! Well, historically, he's a ******* huge producer of yards. But we both know that.

He is above average in spite of a ridiculously high fumble rate, this is your position?

Poet
05-02-2017, 09:54 PM
He is above average in spite of a ridiculously high fumble rate, this is your position?

My position is that you know what his production is, and his past production makes his fumble rate more than tolerable.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 10:11 PM
My position is that you know what his production is, and his past production makes his fumble rate more than tolerable.

What is the relationship between fumble rate and team wins? If you can explain that, I will be satisfied that you are evaluating Charles properly.

Poet
05-02-2017, 10:14 PM
What is the relationship between fumble rate and team wins? If you can explain that, I will be satisfied that you are evaluating Charles properly.

This is just one piece of the puzzle - what is the relationship between his monster production and team wins? You can't isolate one without the other when they are both a big part of the same player.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 10:16 PM
This is just one piece of the puzzle - what is the relationship between his monster production and team wins? You can't isolate one without the other when they are both a big part of the same player.

Fumbles are more pernicious than you care to acknowledge in your soft, lazy analysis.

Consider than the NE Patriots have been league leaders in lowest fumble rates over the past ten years...and the best NFL record over the same period.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/01/05/nfl-new-england-patriots-deflategate-fumbles-tom-brady-bill-belichick

Poet
05-02-2017, 10:23 PM
Fumbles are more pernicious than you care to acknowledge in your soft, lazy analysis.

Consider than the NE Patriots have been league leaders in lowest fumble rates over the past ten years...and the best NFL record over the same period.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/01/05/nfl-new-england-patriots-deflategate-fumbles-tom-brady-bill-belichick

Yeah, I'm being soft and lazy by acknowledging that he fumbles while acknowledging how prolific he is on the field. I'm not being lazy - I'm simply stating what we both know is true.

This is how the conversation typically goes 'Hey, Jamaal Charles fumbles a lot.' 'Yeah, and he pumps out a ton of 1,500 yard rushing and receiving like no one's business'.

And that's the conversation. But since you want to keep calling me out over nothing, fine. We could also point out that the Patriots have arguably the best coach ever, a horrible division, arguably the best QB ever, and that same QB rarely throws INT's. We could also point out that they have great special teams, and their fumble rate is arguably much better than it should be since they were caught cheating.

So with those factors involved, your argumentation about the fumbles to prove your point about Charles is soft and lazy. But then again we both already know those aforementioned factors on the Patriots.

So, no, you're not actually being that lazy. Also, since you seemingly really want this discussion, note that while Charles might fumble a lot, most of those fumbles aren't actually turnovers.

Now, you're far too stubborn to ever admit that you're wrong. And you do, for whatever reason, love trying to call me out.

tl;dr - Charles fumbles a lot but he's so prolific and good on the field it doesn't matter and everyone whose ever watched him play knows that.

But thank you for ruining an otherwise fun and joyous thread. :shocked:

Poet
05-02-2017, 10:28 PM
Hawg, it's also worth noting that in spite of his awful fumbling, Charles has been the engine of the Chiefs - who have been pretty good since he's been their starter. The fact that he's played behind some shitty lines also might explain those fumbles. All of this shit, though, common knowledge that pretty much anyone who watches football should know. Good god, man. Good. God.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 10:32 PM
tl;dr - Charles fumbles a lot but he's so prolific and good on the field it doesn't matter and everyone whose ever watched him play knows that.

It does matter, and it might outweigh his yardage production if we cared to take a close enough look.

And the idea that 'everyone knows it' is about as convincing as a nation voting Trump into office saying that everyone knows Trump is the best president evah (politics aside). And you didn't even establish that 'everyone knows it.' This is meritless, data-less argument.

Poet
05-02-2017, 10:35 PM
It does matter, and it might outweigh his yardage production if we cared to take a close enough look.

And the idea that 'everyone knows it' is about as convincing as a nation voting Trump into office saying that everyone knows Trump is the best president evah.

Everyone knows that the ******* sun is hot. You want a more academic take on that? You don't have to cite to basic facts. If, presuming, someone watches football/plays fantasy football/cares about football, they're going to know how good Charles is. You're grasping at straws to try to prove a point that doesn't actually exist.

If the winning rate that you're using to prop up your argument means anything, the Chiefs record with him plus the fact that he's been the main threat for years should put you at ease. And going back to the 'hey, we know how good Charles is' line of argumentation, they've won with him...as their main threat.

But then again, I guess people who follow football wouldn't know that Tom Brady wins a lot of SB's, Le'Veon Bell is one of the best backs in the league, Von Miller is a dominant defender, or any long running trends.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 10:38 PM
Everyone knows that the ******* sun is hot.

He's a great runner. It's why we have this conversation. If he wasn't exciting, must-see action, we could care less.

It's a valid question--at what point do fumbles outweigh above average production from the RB position? I see no clear answer, but I do see one person arguing that we shouldn't give a damn.

That's willful ignorance.

Poet
05-02-2017, 10:40 PM
He's a great runner. It's why we have this conversation. If he wasn't exciting, must-see action, we could care less.

It's a valid question--at what point do fumbles outweigh above average production from the RB position? I see no clear answer, but I do see one person arguing that we shouldn't give a damn.

That's willful ignorance.

I hate being strawmaned by someone who is smarter than I am, Hawg. It's insulting to both of us. I never said fumbles don't matter, or can't outweigh production. I said his fumbles aren't outweighed by his staggering production, and that his staggering production is well known. Both of those are correct. But please, keep calling me ignorant while grasping at straws desperately.

I am now done with this thread. Which is a shame because god damn did this make my day.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 10:47 PM
I hate being strawmaned by someone who is smarter than I am, Hawg. It's insulting to both of us. I never said fumbles don't matter, or can't outweigh production. I said his fumbles aren't outweighed by his staggering production, and that his staggering production is well known. Both of those are correct. But please, keep calling me ignorant while grasping at straws desperately.

I am now done with this thread. Which is a shame because god damn did this make my day.

Reality can be cold water.

You dismiss fumbles without evidence that his production outweighs his fumble rate. It's soft and lazy. It might be correct, but to embrace that position without evidence is hope-think.

Having said all that, I'm just as stoked as you that he's on the roster. :beer:

Poet
05-02-2017, 10:52 PM
Good. *******. God.

Hawgdriver
05-02-2017, 10:56 PM
I see that you're not refuting the notion that everyone knows how good he is, which is central to my argument. That's probably because you know it is common knowledge amongst football fans that his production is top notch. You haven't shown anything, let alone 'reality/cold water'. I guess you just really wanted me to hyperlink his career stats.

Oh, and your Patriots example got torn to shreds, too. I hate you.

The difference between us is that I'm saying 'I don't know that this is a good RB,' and you are saying 'this is a good running back.' You might be right, but I don't see proof. What I do see is an open question that no one has addressed. If you would rather treat a quality inquiry as debate-fodder rather than address it head-on, fine. I'm not mad.

Poet
05-02-2017, 10:59 PM
The difference between us is that I'm saying 'I don't know that this is a good RB,' and you are saying 'this is a good running back.' You might be right, but I don't see proof. What I do see is an open question that no one has addressed. If you would rather treat a quality inquiry as debate-fodder rather than address it head-on, fine. I'm not mad.

This isn't a quality inquiry. It's not an inquiry at all. Are you, or are you not, cognizant of his career and his prolific production? If you are, then you know that his play outweighs it, or at least has.

If you are not, which makes you stand in contrast to the most casual NFL fan, then that's on you.

underrated29
05-02-2017, 11:53 PM
Does he fumble that much? I don't want per carry, I want per year? How many per year? I've had him in FF as a keeper for 4 years. I'm going to say he's around 6?

But for argument sake let's say 10 per year. At 45 yards per fumble that's 450 yards. He churns out routinely 1500 yards PLUS another 500 or so receiving.....that's 2k all purpose yards, on the routine. Drop out 450 (on an over exaggerated) amount and you have 1550 all purpose yards. More than probably our entire backfield combined!


This was a monster signing. I'll take his occasional fumble. He also won't be playing against our defense 2x a year to cause fumbles either. This signing to me was like drafting Mixon. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, in fact I even texted my friends and have posts how I bet we go after Charles after Marlin Mack and Tarik Cohen went off the board. He made too much sense and he's a badass.

It's safe to fap ladies and gentleman. It's safe to fap.

Valar Morghulis
05-03-2017, 12:05 AM
All I know is whenever we played the chiefs, when the crunch came I wanted then yo hand the ball off to Charles as I always felt like a turnover was a good possibility compared to a chiefs rd

I love this signing, but he definitely cost his team in kansas in our Superbowl year. See roby.....and I think his ball security issues negate a lot of his really positive runs

iLands
05-03-2017, 12:52 AM
I hope we pay him every penny of those incentives.

HORSEPOWER 56
05-03-2017, 01:02 AM
For the record, Marshall caused the fumble, Roby did the scoop and score.

As far as Charles, 2 years ago he was a phenom in this league and had been for the previous 6 years. Adrian Peterson was 1a and Charles was 1b. If he's healthy and doesn't blow out his knee again, he's easily the best all-around RB on our roster. For 900K this year plus incentives this was a great pickup for us. CJ, Ball, and Henderson couldn't carry Charles' pads and will never have the kind of career he has to this point. Every RB fumbles. Even the great Peterson in his prime fumbled. The only reason Charles' fumble is so fresh in our minds is because it was against us and cost them the game.

Until Kelsey and Hill showed up, Charles was their whole offense. I find it hard to believe that pending his health, he can't provide a little spark to our offense.

Jsteve01
05-03-2017, 01:10 AM
Well I love watching Hawg and kinger debate this stuff. Well played well played. I think the thing that hasn't been talked about enough is his ability to slide out ala Marshall Faulk. He takes away from the immediate pressing need to sign an above-average slot because he plays out of that slot position so often when they move him out of the backfield. I love honestly what he brings to the passing game probably more so than what he's going to add to us as a runner. And to take it a step further I think I would prefer to see him used as more of a hybrid back slash slot receiver than full-time running back.

Jsteve01
05-03-2017, 01:13 AM
As to fumble conversation obviously hisfumbles increase as his touches increase. he averaged about four a year over the last three seasons that he saw a lot of touches. So every fourth game he's going to put the ball on the ground. I would have to say that I'm going to have to side with King on this one. When you put that volume compared to the way he impacts the game and he happens to turn the ball over once every four games. Probably outweighed by his production.

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 01:50 AM
Turnovers are the highest-correlated single statistic to wins. Let's not brush it under the rug.

Yes, running backs fumble. That doesn't mean you accept an unusually high fumble rate as the cost of doing business. You optimize for the position and win more often.

Charles is a career once per 62 touch guy. It's not ideal. When you compare him to a guy like CJ Anderson, 3 fumbles in 525 touches (per 175 touches), it's a factor. NFL average? Not sure, but I'd guess in the per 80 to per 100 range. Some backs are secure with the ball (Ladainian Tomlinson, Curtis Martin -- per 130-140 guys), others are not (Walter Payton, Erik Dickerson -- per 40-50 guys). You have to include it when you evaluate the player and how he contributes to expected wins per season.

How much of a factor is the fumble rate?

Like I said, turnovers are the single statistic that most predicts NFL wins and losses. A fumble lost is nearly equivalent to a rush of 45 yards or a catch of 45 yards. A big, game-breaking play. But for the other team.

All I'm saying is temper your enthusiasm. Unless he's improved his technique and is an improved ball security guy, without sacrificing the plus production. Then you celebrate because it's a free agency steal of the year. But if he fumbles per 60 touches, you say, great pickup, good depth, he's going to make us mad once or twice this year with a costly fumble.

CoachChaz
05-03-2017, 07:24 AM
If our top notch defense is able to thwart scoring chances on even just half of Charles' "potential" turnovers, then the VERY cheap gamble becomes even more valuable. If you ask ANY knowledgeable football fan if they'd "settle" for Payton or Dickerson over Tomlinson or Martin...you might be far fetched to find too many negative responses.

Freyaka
05-03-2017, 08:18 AM
And 5.5 ypc average for his career. The best of any RB ever.


So not only are we getting this elite RB were getting this elite RB who has a fire burning inside himself to prove he's still great! And he's always wanted to be a bronco his whole life. This is going to be awesome.

If you are expecting that JC, you are going to be disappointed. He'll serve his purpose, but you aren't going to see an elite season out of him, those days are gone.

Jsteve01
05-03-2017, 08:40 AM
Turnovers are the highest-correlated single statistic to wins. Let's not brush it under the rug.

Yes, running backs fumble. That doesn't mean you accept an unusually high fumble rate as the cost of doing business. You optimize for the position and win more often.

Charles is a career once per 62 touch guy. It's not ideal. When you compare him to a guy like CJ Anderson, 3 fumbles in 525 touches (per 175 touches), it's a factor. NFL average? Not sure, but I'd guess in the per 80 to per 100 range. Some backs are secure with the ball (Ladainian Tomlinson, Curtis Martin -- per 130-140 guys), others are not (Walter Payton, Erik Dickerson -- per 40-50 guys). You have to include it when you evaluate the player and how he contributes to expected wins per season.

How much of a factor is the fumble rate?

Like I said, turnovers are the single statistic that most predicts NFL wins and losses. A fumble lost is nearly equivalent to a rush of 45 yards or a catch of 45 yards. A big, game-breaking play. But for the other team.

All I'm saying is temper your enthusiasm. Unless he's improved his technique and is an improved ball security guy, without sacrificing the plus production. Then you celebrate because it's a free agency steal of the year. But if he fumbles per 60 touches, you say, great pickup, good depth, he's going to make us mad once or twice this year with a costly fumble.

understood. but at one every 4th game I'll take his contribution plus that number should be far lower just on a reduction in touches. Not trying to diminish the impact but come on mate. His impact as change of pace and in the passing game out of the slot will mitigate and risk. We aren't talking about Trindon type volume of fumbles.

VonDoom
05-03-2017, 08:49 AM
Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck 4m4 minutes ago

#Broncos guarantee to Charles is essentially $1 mill. Can max out to $3.75 million w incentives including active roster on game day bonuses

EastCoastBronco
05-03-2017, 08:55 AM
If we could get a couple of Willis McGahee years out of him I'd be happy.
Although their running styles are totally different.

Rick
05-03-2017, 09:54 AM
CJ give us our McGahee running, Charles gives us our receiving back weapon that we haven't had since I don't know when.

Spiritguy
05-03-2017, 10:59 AM
Hey guys, haven't seen this posted and thought you might like to hear from Charles himself on the situation with his knees. Think this guy now has a big chip and energy to burn. :lol: the article is from the 9th of January 2017


The story out in the world was that there was swelling in my knee that held me back, but that’s not what happened. The knee didn’t swell or anything like that. I didn’t get hurt in a game, either. I got hurt on the practice field. It’s a tough break for me, but I can’t really dwell on it. I have to worry about my health and getting myself right. That’s why I’ve spent the last few months down in Pensacola, working hard.

HOW I GOT HERE

There’s been speculation that I tried to come back too quick, or that I wasn’t ready, but I honestly don’t think me coming back to play is what caused this to happen.I think, if anything, I was doing too much extra work on top of what I was doing with the team and the trainers.

Everybody was questioning me, talking about what I should be doing, and asking “Why doesn’t Jamaal look like this coming back from surgery, why does he look like that?” But at the end of the day, you have to be true to who you are instead of listening to the outside voices and trying to follow everybody else’s advice. Everybody is trying to diagnose the body, but nobody knows the body better than God. Man didn’t make the body. God did.

When I came back in Week 4, I needed to shake some rust off. But two weeks later, I was feeling good. I thought that since I had a good game against Oakland, maybe I could do extra stuff before and after practice to get even better, and that kind of backfired on me. The week after the Raiders game, we got into practice, and everything was going normally. Afterward, I stayed out doing some more extra work. Nobody was really out there besides the running backs, everybody had gone back in, just the running back coaches and the running backs were still outside. There were 5-10 of us at most.

We were running through some drills, and when I went to make a cut, my leg just locked up. It wasn’t painful—there was just something weird about it. It locked up, and I couldn’t walk. I had to be carted off the field. They did an MRI, but you couldn’t tell what was going on or what was wrong with me. After you have a knee surgery like I had, it’s hard to tell from an MRI what’s going on. I just knew for myself that even after they worked on my leg, something wasn’t right. I wasn’t the same.

At that point, I had to make a decision to play with the injury or sit out. That week, we were playing New Orleans and I tried to give it a go, but it was still feeling the same. I think I had one carry in that game, and it just didn’t feel right. So I told my running back coach I couldn’t go anymore, and sat the rest of that one out. I wanted to see what would happen the following week, and if it would get any better with a little time. A lot more here: http://www.jamaalcharles25.com/2017/01/09/the-here-and-now/

Poet
05-03-2017, 11:00 AM
His fumbles are high. I don't think his lost fumbles are. His touches go down, which means his fumbles will go down, too.

If JC gives us 5.5 YPC a game it's because he's carrying the rock 5-8 times a game in an offensive that is being called efficiently. Well. Probably. I guess he could just come in when we're losing badly and beat up on the prevent, too.

BroncoJoe
05-03-2017, 11:15 AM
Hey guys, haven't seen this posted and thought you might like to hear from Charles himself on the situation with his knees. Think this guy now has a big chip and energy to burn. :lol: the article is from the 9th of January 2017

A lot more here: http://www.jamaalcharles25.com/2017/01/09/the-here-and-now/

I think everyone here should leave a comment. I just did! :)

NightTerror218
05-03-2017, 11:50 AM
His fumbles are high. I don't think his lost fumbles are. His touches go down, which means his fumbles will go down, too.

If JC gives us 5.5 YPC a game it's because he's carrying the rock 5-8 times a game in an offensive that is being called efficiently. Well. Probably. I guess he could just come in when we're losing badly and beat up on the prevent, too.

The most fumbles he had in a season was 5. He lost 3. He also rushed for 1500 yards and received 690 yards. I will take 5 fumbles and 3 turnovers for that production. 285 attempts and 70 receptions. He was the offense. I will take his production with the risk of a fumble any day.

underrated29
05-03-2017, 12:33 PM
The most fumbles he had in a season was 5. He lost 3. He also rushed for 1500 yards and received 690 yards. I will take 5 fumbles and 3 turnovers for that production. 285 attempts and 70 receptions. He was the offense. I will take his production with the risk of a fumble any day.



Shit, DT has that many fumbles each year too. I don't we need to temper any expectations for him.

MOtorboat
05-03-2017, 12:39 PM
I don't care about fumbles unless he can't get in the endzone anymore. If he gets in the endzone and fumbles once or twice, I do not care.

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 01:04 PM
I get that intuition suggests steady production outweighs sporadic turnovers, but is that true? That's all I'm asking. I ask that we insist on knowing how bad fumbles are so we can be smarter fans.

After all, the two teams this year in the Superbowl lead the league in fewest rushing fumbles. The Patriots have long relied upon running backs with the best ball security. It is a reason for their year after year success, a focus on not turning the ball over. To the degree that not fumbling is a skill or a trait, just as not throwing interceptions might be, we should include it in how we value our players.


Expected Points/Net Expected Points (NEP)
Every single situation on the football field has an expected point value; that is, how many points an average team would be expected to score in that situation (given down, distance-to-go, and yard line). For example, the Chiefs may be facing the Pittsburgh Steelers, with a third-and-two on the 50-yard line. That's a ton of variables, but luckily, numberFire has data from the past dozen years of every single play, so most situations have come up at least once. According to our data, an average team may be "expected" to score 1.23 (estimated number) points on that drive. However, Jamaal Charles reels off a 32-yard run to bring the Chiefs into the red zone, increasing the "expected" point value of the next play to 4.23 (still an estimated number) points. Jamaal Charles then gets credit for the difference, in this case 2.96 points, as his NEP total. That's Net Expected Points.

http://www.numberfire.com/info/glossary


We can value turnovers in the same way. Suppose that on 2nd and 5 at the opponent’s 45 there was a fumble recovered by the defense. The 2nd and 5 was worth +2.2 EP, but not the opponent has a 1st and 10 on their own 45, worth +2.1 EP to them. The result of the play represents -2.1 EP for the original offense for a net loss of -4.3 EP. On average, a fumble in that situation means a net expected loss of a little more than 4 points.

http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2010/01/expected-points-ep-and-expected-points.html

There is a relationship between a fumble and a running back's overall productivity, I just don't see that anyone has made it. I'll try.

Based on the net-expected-points model and also the field-position-vs-punt concept, a rush of -45 yards is pretty close to a lost fumble. Fumbles are 50/50 as turnovers, so -22.5 yards for a fumble seems like an appropriate generic penalty.

If you look at it from that perspective, how does it affect Jamaal's production numbers compared to other running backs?

Charles career - 1332 rushes, 7260 yards, 285 receptions, 2457 yards, 26 fumbles. To avoid noise, let's ignore the receiving stats and focus on rushing, using % of touches to determine rushing fumbles. Since 1332 / (1332 + 285) is 82.3%, we'll use 82.3% of those 26 fumbles (21.4 fumbles) as our estimate of rushing fumbles. His 5.5 yards per carry would drop to 5.1 yards per carry--but now we are talking about a running back that never fumbles and has a 5.1 ypc rate. Baller! We shouldn't expect 5.5 ypc behind this line and at this stage of his career, and we shouldn't expect a tremendous volume of production either.

For comparison sake, how about a guy like Zeke Elliot?

He's a 5.1 ypc guy, but he fumbles at about the same rate (once per 70 touches). Using -22.5 yards as a penalty for a fumble, his production could be restated as 1631 (season rushing total) - 102 (rushing fumble 'penalty yards') = 1529 yards, or 4.7 yards per carry (fumble adjusted). That is still solid production. Not Charles-level production, but solid--and greater volume.

Guys like CJ Anderson, with ultra-low fumble rates, produce fumble-adjusted yards-per-carry much closer to their actual yards-per-carry. His career 4.6 ypc goes to a fumble-adjusted 4.5 ypc. You guys feel me on this yet?

Anyways, at this point I'm thinking, yeah, he might fumble more than average, but so what? Jamaal Charles's production more than makes up the difference...but until this exercise, I couldn't have told you that with any conviction. It's like adding sack-yards-lost to passing stats. You need to account for the negative production as well as positive when viewing the complete picture. I've reconciled it to myself at least, and thought I'd share. Not having an analysis to make a meaningful statement about his fumbles was driving me up the wall. I'm good now.

As an aside: Charles was reasonably productive at 5.0ypc in 2014, his last meaningfully productive season, the Chiefs line consisted of Eric Fisher (meh), Mike McGlynn (scrub), C Rodney Hudson (stud), Zach Fulton (scrub), and Ryan Harris (meh). It gives you hope that Charles creates his own yards--something the eye test told us anyways.

tl;dr -- I've convinced myself using S*C*I*E*N*C*E that Charles's fumbles don't negatively outweigh his 5.5 ypc rushing contribution. Even down to ~4.5 ypc his fumble rate is acceptable production.

DenBronx
05-03-2017, 01:04 PM
CJ give us our McGahee running, Charles gives us our receiving back weapon that we haven't had since I don't know when.

Since Knowshon. He is our last pass catching back and I thought that he did best in a Manning style offense.

Poet
05-03-2017, 01:06 PM
Hawg, you did a bunch of work that didn't need to be done - one simply had to pull open his stat sheet to come to that conclusion.

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 01:09 PM
Hawg, you did a bunch of work that didn't need to be done - one simply had to pull open his stat sheet to come to that conclusion.

I forgive you for embracing ignorance. I understand that my standards are higher than yours.

NightTerror218
05-03-2017, 01:24 PM
You are looking at RB stats as the tell all for how well a team does. You are cherry picking stats are looking too much into one category and not whole picture. Pats have been one of the beat TO differential teams period. Brady rarwly throws ints and secondart are ball hawks.

You are also not factoring into supporting cast of the team. TO are a factor but i rather have a RB with this production and take a big work load then make a young QB pass happy and throw more ints. Siemian throws 1 int for every 48.6 passes. Therefore charles should carry more than siemian passes for a better TO ratio.

Poet
05-03-2017, 01:25 PM
I forgive you for embracing ignorance. I understand that my standards are higher than yours.

Let's see here - I point out that you've argued fumbles = losing and bad teams don't fumble a lot. Well, the Chiefs win a lot, and win a lot with Charles. That goes ignored. I then point out other issues with the Patriots example that you used. Those go ignored.

I point out that his lost fumbles aren't actually all that high. That goes ignored.

I point out that if his turnover issues were so bad, a team that can run the ball well -and the Chiefs do fit that bill- wouldn't have him out on the field that much.

I point out that for years he's been almost their entire offense, which works in tandem with the Chiefs winning, and his fumbles not being a huge issue.

So, no, Hawg. You don't have higher standards. You essentially went to great lengths to prove that the sun is hot when I said 'of course it's hot, it heats up this planet and can burn us and it's super far away'.

You did a bunch of leg work to prove something that was obvious. The fact that you went out of your way to literally prove my main points should tell you something. But, you're not very self-aware.

I forgive you for that. You have lower standards, are less thoughtful, and smell like poop.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-03-2017, 01:50 PM
Just got an email from the Broncos. You can put in an order for Charles' jersey

VonDoom
05-03-2017, 02:23 PM
Just got an email from the Broncos. You can put in an order for Charles' jersey

But what about Butt's jersey???

BroncoJoe
05-03-2017, 02:23 PM
Anyone that thinks JC won't help the Broncos just hasn't watched much football. Dude is a full-fledged stud. Has been for a long time. He torched the Broncos for several seasons - and plenty of other teams as well.

* If he's healthy.

VonDoom
05-03-2017, 02:26 PM
But what about Butt's jersey???

You know, I was just kidding here, but they actually DO have a pre-order for the Butt jersey. Besides Bolles, he's the only draft pick they have listed in the shop. I guess they expect it to sell well.

http://shop.denverbroncos.com/Denver_Broncos_2017_Draft_Gear/Mens_Nike_Jake_Butt_Orange_Denver_Broncos_2017_Dra ft_Pick_Game_Jersey

Okay, sorry to derail the thread. Back to Charles and fumble statistics.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-03-2017, 02:31 PM
Wanted to throw the following in, since there has been two posts here in regards to ordering Bronco stuff



Help Support BroncosForums.com


Broncos Forums now has an arrangement with the Offical Denver Broncos Online shop

where if you click the "Official Denver Broncos Team Shop" link above and make a

purchase, a small percentage of that sale will come back to support Broncos Forums.


This is a great way for the site to get some additional revenue to cover the extra

cost of the new server, without putting an ad at the top of the site next to the

logo or adding more ads inside the discussion threads than already exist.


For those of you that want to purchase something at the Official Broncos Online Shop,

if you click on one of the links above, such as "Official Denver Broncos Team Shop"

or "Broncos Jersey" before adding the items to your cart, you will be supporting

Broncos Forums with your purchase

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/broncosshop.php

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 03:05 PM
Let's see here -

My analysis stands on its own. I'm done pig-wrastlin here. You done got me muddy enough as it is.

Poet
05-03-2017, 03:07 PM
Your analysis is the long form of mine. I'm glad you took the time to catch up to the rest of us.

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 03:26 PM
Does anyone else enjoy this persiflage, besides Kinger? I find it tedious, personally. But there is no accounting for the tastes of others.

BroncoJoe
05-03-2017, 03:30 PM
Does anyone else enjoy this persiflage, besides Kinger? I find it tedious, personally. But there is no accounting for the tastes of others.

That word has not been used frequently since the early 1900's. Get your shit together, Hawg.

G_Money
05-03-2017, 03:31 PM
Does anyone else enjoy this persiflage, besides Kinger? I find it tedious, personally. But there is no accounting for the tastes of others.

Holy shit, I haven't seen anyone use "persiflage" since the summer of '14. I salute you, sir.

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 03:32 PM
That word has not been used frequently since the early 1900's. Get your shit together, Hawg.

Nah, it's making a comeback (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=7&case_insensitive=on&content=persiflage&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cpersiflage%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3 Bpersiflage%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPersiflage%3B%2Cc0) Joe.

BroncoJoe
05-03-2017, 03:33 PM
Nah, it's making a comeback (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=7&case_insensitive=on&content=persiflage&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cpersiflage%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3 Bpersiflage%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BPersiflage%3B%2Cc0) Joe.

That looks like our President's approval ratings.

HORSEPOWER 56
05-03-2017, 03:40 PM
But what about Butt's jersey???

Wanna bet it will probably be the best-selling Bronco jersey and maybe top 5 in the NFL this year? People just love a good Butt.

Cugel
05-03-2017, 05:14 PM
Holy shit, I haven't seen anyone use "persiflage" since the summer of '14. I salute you, sir.

Both I and my monocle are impressed, Sir ! I invite you for a ride in my private Zeppelin !

Cugel
05-03-2017, 05:15 PM
Wanna bet it will probably be the best-selling Bronco jersey and maybe top 5 in the NFL this year? People just love a good Butt.

I'm going to have to get one myself!

Cugel
05-03-2017, 05:29 PM
That looks like our President's approval ratings.

Oh, snap! Now you done done it BroncoJoe! Now da stupids will flame you! :laugh:

LawDog
05-03-2017, 05:40 PM
Hawg, does it appear to have a shade more snark than the typical badinage around here? Or was there some other element that led to your Daedalean stroll through the English language?

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 06:14 PM
Hawg, does it appear to have a shade more snark than the typical badinage around here? Or was there some other element that led to your Daedalean stroll through the English language?

I felt I was starting to become too much of a tryhard. Eject! Eject!

Tell you what, I am super stoked about JC.

I suddenly realized how vaguely I understood fumbles and their discrete, quantifiable relationship to winning. Where is the line? Sorry to drag you all with me down that rabbit hole, but perhaps one or two of you felt that it was a profitable journey.

Simple Jaded
05-03-2017, 06:20 PM
I'd rate the relationship between Charles fumble rate and team wins at approximately 3.14, rounding to the nearest hundredth, given the amount and conditions of the following:

Charles' fumbles lost ("lost" being a critical factor).
Chefs won/loss record.
Their points scored.
Their points given up (also critical).
Percentage of points surrendered off fumbles.
Time of year.
Their playoff positioning.
Weather conditions (critically important).
Whether or not it helped/****ed the Broncos.
Was the ball in right or left hand at time of fumble.
Was Charles wearing the correct cleats.
Did ground cause fumble and NFL screwed up replay.
Hawg/Kingers geek fight.
The bariatric pressure.

It's just a theory but I believe my math is sound.

underrated29
05-03-2017, 06:28 PM
Youre all a bunch of Ragamuffins

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 06:30 PM
I'd rate the relationship between Charles fumble rate and team wins at approximately 3.14, rounding to the nearest hundredth, given the amount and conditions of the following:

Charles' fumbles lost ("lost" being a critical factor).
Chefs won/loss record.
Their points scored.
Their points given up (also critical).
Percentage of points surrendered off fumbles.
Time of year.
Their playoff positioning.
Weather conditions (critically important).
Whether or not it helped/****ed the Broncos.
Was the ball in right or left hand at time of fumble.
Was Charles wearing the correct cleats.
Did ground cause fumble and NFL screwed up replay.
Hawg/Kingers geek fight.
The bariatric pressure.

It's just a theory but I believe my math is sound.

Did you carry the 1111!!!!11! ??

Cugel
05-03-2017, 06:40 PM
I'd rate the relationship between Charles fumble rate and team wins at approximately 3.14, rounding to the nearest hundredth, given the amount and conditions of the following:

Charles' fumbles lost ("lost" being a critical factor).
Chefs won/loss record.
Their points scored.
Their points given up (also critical).
Percentage of points surrendered off fumbles.
Time of year.
Their playoff positioning.
Weather conditions (critically important).
Whether or not it helped/****ed the Broncos.
Was the ball in right or left hand at time of fumble.
Was Charles wearing the correct cleats.
Did ground cause fumble and NFL screwed up replay.
Hawg/Kingers geek fight.
The bariatric pressure.

It's just a theory but I believe my math is sound.

I believe that's "barometric" you want. "Bariatric" is the branch of medicine aimed at the treatment of obesity.

Now, do you have any Grey Poupon? And where did I leave my top hat? [snif]

Poet
05-03-2017, 07:14 PM
Hawg is a better version of me. I just have more body hair.

Jsteve01
05-03-2017, 08:48 PM
Hawg is a better version of me. I just have more body hair. okay that's a little bit too much man. I understand the desire find something quantifiable to assess the impact of fumbles have on wins and losses. Flat out turnovers impact your ability to win. But we have a quarterback potentially if it's the same quarterback that turns the ball over at a pretty low rate for a Young quarterback. Our other backs don't seem to put the ball on the ground very much other than Booker early on in his stint as the starter

LawDog
05-03-2017, 08:49 PM
I felt I was starting to become too much of a tryhard. Eject! Eject!

Tell you what, I am super stoked about JC.

I suddenly realized how vaguely I understood fumbles and their discrete, quantifiable relationship to winning. Where is the line? Sorry to drag you all with me down that rabbit hole, but perhaps one or two of you felt that it was a profitable journey.

If you're going to dive that deep you really need to engage in some fine-line analysis. How do you quantify situational fumbles? Does he fumble more in the 1st quarter or fourth? With a lead or trailing? What about field position and down and distance when he fumbled? Are there trends that are identifiable as to the likelihood of a fumble being recovered or leading to a turnover? What about points resulting from his fumbles? Did those points lead directly to a loss (like the one we all know about)? Once you go through that data collection, then you need to do that for the cohort of RBs that compare at some level to JC. Maybe the guy with only 1 fumble per 80-100 touches is actually a greater risk because he tends to fumble deep in his own territory late in games with close scores.

Essentially you cannot just point to one factor (drops per touch) and make some all-encompassing judgement as to a players relative risk/reward.

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 08:52 PM
If you're going to dive that deep you really need to engage in some fine-line analysis. How do you quantify situational fumbles? Does he fumble more in the 1st quarter or fourth? With a lead or trailing? What about field position and down and distance when he fumbled? Are there trends that are identifiable as to the likelihood of a fumble being recovered or leading to a turnover? What about points resulting from his fumbles? Did those points lead directly to a loss (like the one we all know about)? Once you go through that data collection, then you need to do that for the cohort of RBs that compare at some level to JC. Maybe the guy with only 1 fumble per 80-100 touches is actually a greater risk because he tends to fumble deep in his own territory late in games with close scores.

Essentially you cannot just point to one factor (drops per touch) and make some all-encompassing judgement as to a players relative risk/reward.

These are fertile grounds for future research!

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 09:38 PM
Maualuigi.

What about Weatherspoon?

Cugel
05-03-2017, 10:10 PM
okay that's a little bit too much man. I understand the desire find something quantifiable to assess the impact of fumbles have on wins and losses. Flat out turnovers impact your ability to win. But we have a quarterback potentially if it's the same quarterback that turns the ball over at a pretty low rate for a Young quarterback. Our other backs don't seem to put the ball on the ground very much other than Booker early on in his stint as the starter

A "Young" QB, as in Steve Young? I don't think either of these guys really compares with Steve Young! Let's not go overboard here!

NightTrainLayne
05-03-2017, 10:13 PM
Surely we can all agree on these points:

1. Charles is a wonderful addition to our roster. Especially with the contract Elway got him to sign.

2. An above average fumble rate can be ameliorated by production (as I'm quite sure it is in this case), but to compare it to a mole on a swimsuit model's back is way under-stating it's importance. It's very much acceptable, but it is a blemish worth mentioning.

Poet
05-03-2017, 10:16 PM
Surely we can all agree on these points:

1. Charles is a wonderful addition to our roster. Especially with the contract Elway got him to sign.

2. An above average fumble rate can be ameliorated by production (as I'm quite sure it is in this case), but to compare it to a mole on a swimsuit model's back is way under-stating it's importance. It's very much acceptable, but it is a blemish worth mentioning.

The point of the swimsuit model comparison is that the production was so high that it made the fumbles (not many were lost) a minute comparison. For an extreme hypothetical - a RB losses 30 fumbles in a season. He scores 100 TD's, rushes for 3k yards, and catches 110 passes for 1,500 yards and 18 TD's. No one would care about the fumbles.

Cugel
05-03-2017, 10:20 PM
I don't know why the minute the Broncos sign a big Impact FA, all the wall moles come out of the wall and carp.

The Broncos didn't have a Ton of talent at the RB position. They had CJ who has never played a full season, and Booker who sucked last year. No matter how much they like his "upside potential" he hasn't done anything.

Now they have a Quasi-Maybe-Near Hall of Fame RB. Now, there may not be a lot of tread left on those tires, but there is SOME tread. Perhaps enough for 2 good years if they don't over-work him.

And it doesn't look like they are stupid enough to start Jamaal outside of an emergency. He's that home-run hitter. Don't try and grind him. Bring him in and work him out of the backfield. Let him catch screen passes. Run him and let him get his 15 touches or so. He'll be really impactful under those circumstances.

NightTrainLayne
05-03-2017, 10:21 PM
The point of the swimsuit model comparison is that the production was so high that it made the fumbles (not many were lost) a minute comparison. For an extreme hypothetical - a RB losses 30 fumbles in a season. He scores 100 TD's, rushes for 3k yards, and catches 110 passes for 1,500 yards and 18 TD's. No one would care about the fumbles.

Sure.

And I didn't care about Cindi Crawford's mole on her face back in the day.







But it wasn't on her back either.

Jsteve01
05-03-2017, 10:38 PM
okay that's a little bit too much man. I understand the desire find something quantifiable to assess the impact of fumbles have on wins and losses. Flat out turnovers impact your ability to win. But we have a quarterback potentially if it's the same quarterback that turns the ball over at a pretty low rate for a Young quarterback. Our other backs don't seem to put the ball on the ground very much other than Booker early on in his stint as the starter

A "Young" QB, as in Steve Young? I don't think either of these guys really compares with Steve Young! Let's not go overboard here!haha

underrated29
05-03-2017, 11:05 PM
This fumble stuff needs to end.

Why don't you all analyze the drag from his leg hair and determine how much faster he could be if it were short.

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 11:08 PM
This fumble stuff needs to end.

Why don't you all analyze the drag from his leg hair and determine how much faster he could be if it were short.

Glad you asked.

If you use a velocity to the power of velocity resistance model (instead of a simple power model), the clear result is mandatory taintshaving, and I think you are in a good place to earn some barber pay.

ShaneFalco
05-03-2017, 11:09 PM
downloaded custom madden roster.

Hand off tackle run to Charles on right.

Spin move. Ankles Broken. 70 yard TD run Untouched.

Great things are coming.

Great things.

underrated29
05-03-2017, 11:16 PM
Glad you asked.

If you use a velocity to the power of velocity resistance model (instead of a simple power model), the clear result is mandatory taintshaving, and I think you are in a good place to earn some barber pay.


This can be a risky maneuver. Proper positioning Is a must or you may knick the gap!

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 11:25 PM
A healthy CJ and Charles makes the best duo in the NFL. If not, damned close.

Dudes get injured. Depth is critical.

Who else can match that Wonder-Twins-power awesomeness? Shape of a Babadook! Form of a Cthulhu!

Don't sleep on CJ. Not only is he fresh, but he's at weight and has some real competition on the roster with him. These are two proud dudes. Two proud dudes that are both as salty as the NFL can offer. Love it.

For water cooler fodder...these are the other duos...

Gillislee and Shady McCoy
Freeman and Coleman
Ingram and AP (with Kamara)
Ezekiel Elliot and himself
Dalvin Cook and Latavius Murray

Hawgdriver
05-03-2017, 11:27 PM
This can be a risky maneuver. Proper positioning Is a must or you may knick the gap!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/da25e30ec0c74f158f256d1831b2bf7d/tumblr_n3lng47cbn1smcbm7o1_1280.gif

Simple Jaded
05-03-2017, 11:35 PM
What about Weatherspoon?

****in A! Good call.

Simple Jaded
05-03-2017, 11:37 PM
Daryle Washington, don't care if he's a pothead.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-04-2017, 12:15 AM
Daryle Washington, don't care if he's a pothead.

Is that the dude from TCU?

Hawgdriver
05-04-2017, 02:24 AM
A healthy CJ and Charles makes the best duo in the NFL. If not, damned close.

Dudes get injured. Depth is critical.

Who else can match that Wonder-Twins-power awesomeness? Shape of a Babadook! Form of a Cthulhu!

Don't sleep on CJ. Not only is he fresh, but he's at weight and has some real competition on the roster with him. These are two proud dudes. Two proud dudes that are both as salty as the NFL can offer. Love it.

For water cooler fodder...these are the other duos...

Gillislee and Shady McCoy
Freeman and Coleman
Ingram and AP (with Kamara)
Ezekiel Elliot and himself
Dalvin Cook and Latavius Murray

So apparently Gillislee is now part of the Patriots backfield. That team has quietly assembled one of the best backfields in the league. Not that I'm jealous.

Kinger, is this self-styling?

What if I predict that CJ and Jamaal will both rush for over 200 yards in the head to head this year?

VonDoom
05-04-2017, 09:00 AM
Guess Charles wasn't just blowing smoke about being a Bronco fan in the past:

https://twitter.com/JermichaelF88/status/859937604850069505

Freyaka
05-04-2017, 09:31 AM
Guess Charles wasn't just blowing smoke about being a Bronco fan in the past:

https://twitter.com/JermichaelF88/status/859937604850069505

I love how much angst this fact has caused Chiefs fans :D


*edit* not sure how my response became the hyperlink for your tweet post...lol

VonDoom
05-04-2017, 09:36 AM
I love how much angst this fact has caused Chiefs fans :D


*edit* not sure how my response became the hyperlink for your tweet post...lol

For some reason, when you quote a post with a Twitter link, it does that.

Hawgdriver
05-04-2017, 09:40 AM
That's great that it is Finley putting it out there instead of Charles.

Poet
05-04-2017, 09:58 AM
So apparently Gillislee is now part of the Patriots backfield. That team has quietly assembled one of the best backfields in the league. Not that I'm jealous.

Kinger, is this self-styling?

What if I predict that CJ and Jamaal will both rush for over 200 yards in the head to head this year?

This is not self-styling.

Simple Jaded
05-04-2017, 11:16 PM
Is that the dude from TCU?
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/profile.php?pyid=75685

Arizona Cardinals ILB, too, been indefinitely suspended because of hippy lettuce. Was reinstated last week and might get outright released.

Poet
05-04-2017, 11:18 PM
Arizona Cardinals ILB, too, been indefinitely suspended because of hippy lettuce. Was reinstated last week and might get outright released.

He was once so ******* good at the game.

Jsteve01
05-05-2017, 12:49 AM
Sign Washington and barnidge now get it done

Cugel
05-05-2017, 05:20 PM
Daryle Washington, don't care if he's a pothead.

About the only downside to weed use in the NFL is if you're in the program they keep random testing you for a year or two. Frankly, getting busted is usually a sign of being stupid since at least 1/2 the NFL smokes weed on a regular basis - according to Rex Ryan.

Cugel
05-05-2017, 05:22 PM
Sign Washington and barnidge now get it done

The question about Barnbridge is "how much money will he want?" And will he want to come here when the Broncos just drafted Jake Butt?

Cugel
05-05-2017, 05:25 PM
I love how much angst this fact has caused Chiefs fans :D

They are all saying "he's washed up! He can't stay healthy!" Telling themselves over and over. Wait till he shows he can still play.

Then the wailing and gnashing of teeth begins. He might not be welcome in KC anymore if he scores a TD against the Chiefs in KC! I'd give it to him in the red zone just to see their reaction! :laugh:

VonDoom
05-09-2017, 07:08 PM
Charles seems to be settling in here. He's already doing volunteer work with the Special Olympics in Denver. He talks a bit about his new team too (and there's a good picture of him in his new orange jersey):



ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- Jamaal Charles spent the first part of his Tuesday engrossed in the process of getting to know his new team.

He continued to learn the offense and get acquainted with his new teammates. So far, the process is going well, and he was clearly amped about getting to know his fellow running backs.

"It's exciting, man. We all joke around," Charles said. "It's not any big pressure; it's just exciting to be around a new room. They're probably excited to be around a new guy. I'm excited to be a part of the room."

He's also excited to learn the new offense.

"The playbook is going to be easy," Charles said. "I've been in five different systems. I like it, too. [Offensive Coordinator] Mike McCoy, he's got a great offensive playbook."

The sight of the Chiefs' all-time leading rusher in an orange jersey is still a jarring one, but eventually everyone will get accustomed to it.

"It feels weird coming to work, putting another jersey on. It definitely feels weird, but it's exciting weird," Charles said. "I'm excited about the new chapter. I'm excited about what's ahead of me, and we'll go from there. I'm just excited."

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Jamaal-Charles-gets-settled-in-with-Broncos----in-both-football-and-community-work/978e8707-f5c0-44e7-be37-04c6c95863a1

DT88TheGreat
05-09-2017, 07:43 PM
Charles seems to be settling in here. He's already doing volunteer work with the Special Olympics in Denver. He talks a bit about his new team too (and there's a good picture of him in his new orange jersey):



http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Jamaal-Charles-gets-settled-in-with-Broncos----in-both-football-and-community-work/978e8707-f5c0-44e7-be37-04c6c95863a1

Mark my word's, Charles will be healthy and will put up big numbers. And He will get an 1 year extension once elway sees that he is still elite.

DT88TheGreat
05-09-2017, 07:47 PM
They are all saying "he's washed up! He can't stay healthy!" Telling themselves over and over. Wait till he shows he can still play.

Then the wailing and gnashing of teeth begins. He might not be welcome in KC anymore if he scores a TD against the Chiefs in KC! I'd give it to him in the red zone just to see their reaction! :laugh:

I was on a chief's forum and one chief fan said he was listening to a local sport's radio show and heard that Charles is 100% healthy and his legs are stronger than they ever been, he said kc made a big mistake letting Charles walk and he's even more torn about Charles thrashing the chief's twice this year.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-09-2017, 10:05 PM
Charles seems to be settling in here. He's already doing volunteer work with the Special Olympics in Denver. He talks a bit about his new team too (and there's a good picture of him in his new orange jersey):

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Jamaal-Charles-gets-settled-in-with-Broncos----in-both-football-and-community-work/978e8707-f5c0-44e7-be37-04c6c95863a1

From the above article, I found the following interesting:


Just one thing excites him more: the work he did after the day's football duties were complete.

That's when Charles returned to familiar ground by volunteering with the Special Olympics at the Broncos' Play 60 All-Ability Clinic, held inside the Pat Bowlen Fieldhouse.

Few things are closer to Charles' heart. While growing up in Port Arthur, Texas, Charles competed in the Special Olympics, winning gold medals in track-and-field events 21 years ago.

I had no idea he competed in Special Olympics, so I found this 2015 article


At the opening ceremony of the Special Olympics in Los Angeles on Saturday night, Jamaal Charles initiated proceedings with a touching story about his own struggles with a learning disability.

The Kansas City Chiefs running back said he felt helpless as a young kid, but once he competed and won a gold medal in track and field at the Special Olympics, it gave him a newfound bout of confidence.

“I was afraid. I was lost. I had trouble reading. I found out I had a learning disability. People made fun of me. They said I would never go anywhere. But I learned I can fly. When I was 10 years I had the chance to compete in the Special Olympics. The Special Olympics gave me my first chance to discover a talent I did not know I had.”

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/07/jamaal-charles-gives-heartwarming-speech-about-his-own-disability-at-the-special-olympics

VonDoom
05-09-2017, 10:13 PM
From the above article, I found the following interesting:



I had no idea he competed in Special Olympics, so I found this 2015 article



http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/07/jamaal-charles-gives-heartwarming-speech-about-his-own-disability-at-the-special-olympics

Good find. I was unaware that he had a learning disability. I love people that can overcome that. Should be a great inspiration for Bolles in that respect

Denver Native (Carol)
05-09-2017, 10:28 PM
All-Ability Clinic hits home for Jamaal Charles
Broncos TV's Matt Boyer explains why Broncos RB Jamaal Charles holds a personal connection to events like the Play 60 All-Ability Clinic, and how he and his teammates turned out in great numbers to support Special Olympics Colorado.

video - http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/All-Ability-Clinic-hits-home-for-Jamaal-Charles/7f44485c-60c1-4238-a8fd-456981c40c3d

A lot of Bronco players were there today

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/photo-gallery/Jamaal-Charles-Trevor-Siemian-among-Broncos-at-PLAY-60-All-Ability-Clinic/b230fd3a-ea36-4736-b690-bb926c75e648

DT88TheGreat
05-09-2017, 11:41 PM
From the above article, I found the following interesting:



I had no idea he competed in Special Olympics, so I found this 2015 article



http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/07/jamaal-charles-gives-heartwarming-speech-about-his-own-disability-at-the-special-olympics

Yes very good.character guy, so easy to root for.this guy, wish he was a bronco his entire career. As much as I hated the chiefs I always respected Charles because he was undeniably a monster on the field.

DT88TheGreat
05-09-2017, 11:43 PM
Good find. I was unaware that he had a learning disability. I love people that can overcome that. Should be a great inspiration for Bolles in that respect

Leary said bolles has already got much of the playbook down and said it suprised him, said bolles is a grown man at 25 and he goes about his business very mature. He's going to develop into a top 7 LT in his rookie year.

Cugel
05-10-2017, 11:28 PM
Leary said bolles has already got much of the playbook down and said it suprised him, said bolles is a grown man at 25 and he goes about his business very mature.

This part is correct, and it is encouraging.

"He's going to develop into a top 7 LT in his rookie year." That part is a wild leap onto the planet Neptune.

10503

VonDoom
05-18-2017, 10:22 AM
Contract details for Charles, from Klis:



KUSA - KUSA—Details of Jamaal Charles’ one-year contract with the Denver Broncos have been obtained by 9NEWS.

Some of the key new information: He gets a $250,000 bonus if he makes the Broncos’ season-opening 53-man roster.

He also gets a $78,125 bonus each time he dresses on the game-day, 46-man roster.

Previously reported by 9NEWS was Charles’ $100,000 workout bonus – the only guaranteed portion of his deal – and a 9-year veteran minimum $900,000 base salary.

To summarize:

*If Charles doesn’t make the Broncos’ roster because his surgically repaired knee doesn’t come around as hoped, he receives $100,000, not to mention peace of mind knowing he gave it everything he had.

*If he makes it to the Broncos’ season opener against the Los Angeles Chargers on Monday night, Sept. 11, he is assured of making $1,328,125. ($100,000 in workout bonus; $900,000 in salary; a one-time, $250,000 bonus for making the team; and a $78,125 game-day bonus).

*If he plays all 16 games, he will make $2.5 million. ($78,125 roster bonus times 16 for $1.25 million; $900,000 salary, $100,000 workout bonus; $250,000 bonus for making the 53.)

*Charles can also make an additional $1.25 million in incentives based on individual and team performances. His first incentive threshold is 500 all-purpose yards. His $1.25 million incentive package is maximized if he reaches 1,000 all-purpose yards and the Broncos make the playoffs.

That’s doable. So if all goes well for the Broncos and Charles this season, he will make $3.75 million.

This is what is known as a win-win deal. If Charles can stay healthy and contribute and the Broncos make the playoffs, he doesn’t have to be the superstar Jamaal Charles of 2012-14 to make $3.75 million.

If it’s determined Charles’ knee – which underwent surgeries to repair a meniscus tear last year and ACL tear in 2015 – won’t hold up to the strain of playing NFL running back, the Broncos are only out $100,000.

Better believe the Broncos are hoping to pay him $3.75 million.

http://www.9news.com/sports/jamaal-charles-contract-details-win-win-for-both-sides/440777692