McShay's Top 32: Christian McCaffrey rising up the board

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Even though this is on ESPN insider, which I have not joined, there is a great video on here showing what all Christian can do.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2017/insider/story/_/id/19170416/todd-mcshay-top-32-christian-mccaffrey-rising-board-2017-nfl-draft

[slim]

McShay wouldn't know a top end bubble if it sat on his face.

[NightTerror218]

Read that McCaffery wants to be a bronco and told elway this during his visit. I would love to see him a broncos but elway can't trade up too high for him. Could mccaffery pull off an elway draft day trade and force a team to trade him to broncos?

[Magnificent Seven]

Christian McCaffrey sent a clear message to the Denver Broncos.

Upon showing up to Dove Valley for last week's official visit, the Stanford offensive weapon "let the Broncos know that if he’s still around by then, he wants that No. 20 draft slot," 9News' Mike Klis reported.

McCaffrey came "dressed to the nines" in a dark suit and red tie for his meeting with the Broncos, which boiled down to a formal interview. Standing on his prior numbers, McCaffrey has declined private workouts for teams on pre-draft visits.

But he didn't have to prove himself, at least for the Broncos. They know full well what McCaffrey's capable of, having met with him at the Scouting Combine and attended his Pro Day last month. His appearance reportedly was "expected," as the former Valor Christian Academy star and son of Ed has been training nearby this offseason.

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McCaffrey arrived shortly before Paxton Lynch and Trevor Siemian held individual press conferences, and his drop-by caused the quarterbacks to address their potential future teammate.

“Obviously, he is a great player,’’ said Lynch, per 9News. “You see him all over ESPN making these ridiculous plays. Wherever he ends up, if it’s here, I’m sure we’ll all be grateful to have him here. You’ve got a guy like Demaryius and Emmanuel to learn from, too, which would be very beneficial to him. I’m sure wherever he ends up, he’s going to help the organization.”

“He’s a good player, obviously,’’ Siemian said. “Wherever he goes he’s going to have a ton of success. I don’t know what the draft board looks like up there. Again, Elway has got a better answer for you. I’m looking forward to what he does in the league.”

Once considered a fringe first-round prospect, McCaffrey's stock has steadily surged in recent weeks. The latest rumor du jour has the Carolina Panthers nabbing him at No. 8 overall. If he escapes Carolina's clutches, the Philadelphia Eagles (14), Indianapolis Colts (15) and Washington Redskins (17) could also break the Broncos' heart.

It's possible, but not probable, that Denver moves up multiple spots to secure McCaffrey's services. It would be costly -- at least a third-round pick -- but general manager John Elway has never shied away from getting his man.

Apparently, McCaffrey has made his case. It's now Elway's call.


http://den.247sports.com/Bolt/Report-Christian-McCaffrey-wants-to-be-drafted-by-Broncos-52343740

[ShaneFalco]

Read that McCaffery wants to be a bronco and told elway this during his visit. I would love to see him a broncos but elway can't trade up too high for him. Could mccaffery pull off an elway draft day trade and force a team to trade him to broncos?

where did you read this?

Link?

[OrangeHoof]

I don't doubt that McCaffrey would love to be a Bronco for a number of reasons but, gawdamitey, every college player tells every NFL team they'd love to play for them. It's the right thing to say when you're applying for a job.

[Hawgdriver]

McCaffrey would love to be a Bronco. It's not rocket science. Think about when you first felt the rapture of the NFL. Now imagine you are a royal scion of that lineage.

Doubt he is ever a Bronco, but it's quickly becoming a fantasy, and that is unhealthy.

[Magnificent Seven]

He could be Elway 2.0. In 1983, Elway refused to accept to be a Colt and wanted to be traded. Broncos got Elway. Same pattern for Christian McCaffrey? Heh.

[DT88TheGreat]

There is no chance a running back whose slated to go between 10-20 is going to demand that he will only play for one team. Getting christian on the broncos just isn't going to happen, we cannot afford to trade up for a RB/slot receiver. Especially when a guy like Cook or Mixon can fall right in your lap.

[NightTerror218]

There is no chance a running back whose slated to go between 10-20 is going to demand that he will only play for one team. Getting christian on the broncos just isn't going to happen, we cannot afford to trade up for a RB/slot receiver. Especially when a guy like Cook or Mixon can call right in your lap.

Actually we can easily afford to trade up. We have lots of picks and can move up just not too far. I would not be suprised if elway moved up using our comp 3rd.

[Simple Jaded]

So.......overrated.

I am literally sick of hearing him ****ing name.

[Hawgdriver]

So.......overrated.

I am literally sick of hearing him ****ing name.

Yeah, running with vision and getting results, it's lame.

[Simple Jaded]

Yeah, running with vision and getting results, it's lame.

And so, so rare.......I doubt it's ever been done before. Not like Christian Tebow.

[Simple Jaded]

He'd be a great 2nd round pick, I like him a lot, but I'm not sure I want the Broncos compounding their 2nd round mistakes by taking 2nd rounders in the 1st.

Duke Johnson, Gio Bernard, even LeSean McCoy if you're feeling generous...all 2nd and 3rd round picks. That's where you take that kind of RB.

Trade up to Top 10 for a gadget RB with a ton of mileage? That's weapons grade stupid.

[Hawgdriver]

He'd be a great 2nd round pick, I like him a lot, but I'm not sure I want the Broncos compounding their 2nd round mistakes by taking 2nd rounders in the 1st.

Duke Johnson, Gio Bernard, even LeSean McCoy if you're feeling generous...all 2nd and 3rd round picks. That's where you take that kind of RB.

Trade up to Top 10 for a gadget RB with a ton of mileage? That's weapons grade stupid.

I feel ya. I think he's a tad overhyped as well, but I believe in him. Would I Mixon > McCaff? Nah, man. But I feel ya.

[NightTerror218]

I feel ya. I think he's a tad overhyped as well, but I believe in him. Would I Mixon > McCaff? Nah, man. But I feel ya.

I see him as jamaal charles meets leveon bell style of running and has the return game.

[Hawgdriver]

I'd be down on McCaff but he's got A+ ball security with a bazillion carries and excellent vision. Results. It's undeniable.

Yeah, he's got mileage, but his vision and style isn't plow into contact like a Montee Ball etc. He's fresh-ish.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I see him as jamaal charles meets leveon bell style of running and has the return game.

IMO, he's more of a Percy Harvin kind of guy; he's dangerous when running, receiving, and returning. He's not quite as explosive, but is miles ahead in intangibles

[Poet]

He's never going to be a 30 touch per game guy (on a consistent basis that is) and we have seen a bit of a return to dominant running games. Pittsburgh, New England, Dallas, and Tennessee all come to mind.
On the other hand...if he lives up to being a solid slot guy he's the most versatile NFL player, at least on offense. Setting him in motion out of the backfield and into the slot...that's some style.

[DT88TheGreat]

Actually we can easily afford to trade up. We have lots of picks and can move up just not too far. I would not be suprised if elway moved up using our comp 3rd.

3 of the 10 picks are in round 7 dude.... Nobody is going to be beating down the door to get ahold of some 7th round picks. Broncos are.better off keeping them anyway and seeing if 1 of the 3 sticks.

[slim]

I liked Jaded better when he wasn't here.

[Valar Morghulis]

I liked Jaded better when he wasn't here.

I like him best inside me

[underrated29]

Is Jaded DT88thebest?

[slim]

Mac is the greatest football player in the history of football.

[PatriotsGuy]

That's it!!! Rename the food forum the McCaffeteria!

[Poet]

That's it!!! Rename the food forum the McCaffeteria!

#Europeanstyle
#Eurowit
#McCafe
#draftthatyoungman
#pungamestrong
#NFLdraft

I am now on board with him.

[Simple Jaded]

I feel ya. I think he's a tad overhyped as well, but I believe in him. Would I Mixon > McCaff? Nah, man. But I feel ya.

Seriously I wanted McCaffrey until the draft season started, he got ****** in the Heisman, but it's become neauseating. 1043 devotes 13 hours a day to discussing a RB nobody in this town would give a rats fat ass about if he wasn't a perfect and white legacy.

[Poet]

Seriously I wanted McCaffrey until the draft season started, he got ****** in the Heisman, but it's become neauseating. 1043 devotes 13 hours a day to discussing a RB nobody in this town would give a rats fat ass about if he wasn't a perfect and white legacy.

I feel you. I'm not sure I agree or disagree...but I feel you.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Although not as fast, I see McCaffrey as a Tyreek Hill type player. Where would KC's offense have been without that dude? Runs, catches, and returns. The guy is an offensive weapon. I'm not saying we need to trade up to get him but if McCaffrey falls to 20, I think we'd be stupid not to take him. Better him than reach for an OT who has a higher chance of being Ty Sambrailo than Joe Thomas.

[spikerman]

Seriously I wanted McCaffrey until the draft season started, he got ****** in the Heisman, but it's become neauseating. 1043 devotes 13 hours a day to discussing a RB nobody in this town would give a rats fat ass about if he wasn't a perfect and white legacy.
Hmmm, I'm not sure his color matters to most people. I think his dynamic skill set is much more intriguing.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Hmmm, I'm not sure his color matters to most people. I think his dynamic skill set is much more intriguing.

Speak for yourself

#honkyhype

[Poet]

Where do you guys think he ends up? Surely he's not a top ten pick?

[spikerman]

Where do you guys think he ends up? Surely he's not a top ten pick?

Denver needs playmakers and has 10 picks.... trade up, John.

[Poet]

Denver needs playmakers and has 10 picks.... trade up, John.

Seventh rounders mean very little - we need protection on the line so if we're trading get that done!

[spikerman]

Seventh rounders mean very little - we need protection on the line so if we're trading get that done!

Seventh rounders... lol. I'd all be trading up for OL if there was one who was worth it.

[Poet]

Seventh rounders... lol. I'd all be trading up for OL if there was one who was worth it.

That's what I'm getting at - three of our ten picks are seventh rounders. We don't have as much ammo as it 'sounds' like. I'm talking about trying to trade for a veteran.

[spikerman]

That's what I'm getting at - three of our ten picks are seventh rounders. We don't have as much ammo as it 'sounds' like. I'm talking about trying to trade for a veteran.

Nah, swap the first and one of the 3rd rounders to move up. http://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2017/02/25/2017-nfl-draft-order-denver-broncos-how-many-picks/

[Poet]

Nah, swap the first and one of the 3rd rounders to move up. http://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2017/02/25/2017-nfl-draft-order-denver-broncos-how-many-picks/

Or get another RB later in the draft and hopefully a real LT? That's a better gain, imo.

[spikerman]

Or get another RB later in the draft and hopefully a real LT? That's a better gain, imo.

I would be for that, but who do you suggest and what do you give up?

[Poet]

I would be for that, but who do you suggest and what do you give up?

Well, Stink thinks LT's can rain from the heavens.

[spikerman]

Well, Stink thinks LT's can rain from the heavens.

Stink is on my shit list since he ignored me at the airport so I'll assume he's wrong.

[Poet]

Stink is on my shit list since he ignored me at the airport so I'll assume he's wrong.

You should have hit him with a stunner.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

This hasn’t been altered. This is real.

This is Christian McCaffrey showing off his lighting-fast foot-speed while working out ahead of the draft at Landow Performance in Centennial. This is, in part, why McCaffrey is projected to in the first round (high, too) and why many Broncos fans (and players) are clamoring for the team to trade up and draft him.

Behold:

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/04/19/watch-christian-mccaffrey-flashes-crazy-foot-speed-in-pre-draft-workout-clip/

[Simple Jaded]

Hmmm, I'm not sure his color matters to most people. I think his dynamic skill set is much more intriguing.

"Most people" is who I referring to. Nothing on this planet gets Broncos fan more wet than a clean cut All-American poster boy.

Every year some 5-11/230 LB with 4.9 speed and 20" arms becomes the next Zack Thomas, this might be the first time in 8-9 drafts that that's not the case...because everybody is obsessed with a RB you can get every year in the 2nd-3rd round.

I wouldn't call McCaffrey any more "dynamic" than the last 5-11/200 RB with 4.45 speed.

John Ross III, that's dynamic.

[Simple Jaded]

I liked Jaded better when he wasn't here.

How do you think I feel? I'm with me all the time and I won't go away.

[Poet]

Jaded, isn't it true that McCaffrey can be a slot guy?

[Simple Jaded]

Jaded, isn't it true that McCaffrey can be a slot guy?

If you want, I suppose. Or, you could draft a slot.

Wouldn't you rather have Gio? I would.

[Simple Jaded]

I remember when I wanted the Broncos to draft Todd Gurley and it was unpopular because you don't take RB's in the 1st round.

Todd freakin Gurley!

[DT88TheGreat]

"Most people" is who I referring to. Nothing on this planet gets Broncos fan more wet than a clean cut All-American poster boy.

Every year some 5-11/230 LB with 4.9 speed and 20" arms becomes the next Zack Thomas, this might be the first time in 8-9 drafts that that's not the case...because everybody is obsessed with a RB you can get every year in the 2nd-3rd round.

I wouldn't call McCaffrey any more "dynamic" than the last 5-11/200 RB with 4.45 speed.

John Ross III, that's dynamic.

Would you be fine with that m taking Ross at 20? I know I would be fine with it.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I remember when I wanted the Broncos to draft Todd Gurley and it was unpopular because you don't take RB's in the 1st round.

Todd freakin Gurley!

You mean the guy who is 235 with world class speed?

[Hawgdriver]

You mean the guy who is 235 with world class speed?

I'll quibble a little bit. Gurley is def a stud. His #'s would pop if he had good QB play. Not sure what the Rams line situation is.

But from what I see, his combine #'s are 222 and 4.52. Solid but nothing special.

Just looking at the 2015 RB class, on pure #'s alone, David Johnson jumps off the page a bit more 224, 4.40. Late riser that the Cardinals nabbed in the 3d round who is a 2d year all-pro.

Jaded is right, you can somewhat routinely find great RB talent with good hands in the 2d and 3d rounds. I'd say that guy this year is Joe Mixon, would love for him to fall to us at 52.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'll quibble a little bit. Gurley is def a stud. His #'s would pop if he had good QB play. Not sure what the Rams line situation is.

But from what I see, his combine #'s are 222 and 4.52. Solid but nothing special.

Just looking at the 2015 RB class, on pure #'s alone, David Johnson jumps off the page a bit more 224, 4.40. Late riser that the Cardinals nabbed in the 3d round who is a 2d year all-pro.

Jaded is right, you can somewhat routinely find great RB talent with good hands in the 2d and 3d rounds. I'd say that guy this year is Joe Mixon, would love for him to fall to us at 52.

Keep in mind I'm shooting from the hip a little without digging up info, but here it goes:

Gourley was recovering from a torn ACL when he ran at the combine, and he refrained from all of the other drills. He was lighter than his normal playing weight.

He was an all American track star in the 100 meter dash, and probably really is a legitimate 4.3 athlete, or better as highlighted by the way he runs away from NFL corners. McCaffrey is not nearly as fast as Todd.

[Hawgdriver]

Keep in mind I'm shooting from the hip a little without digging up info, but here it goes:

Gourley was recovering from a torn ACL when he ran at the combine, and he refrained from all of the other drills. He was lighter than his normal playing weight.

He was an all American track star in the 100 meter dash, and probably really is a legitimate 4.3 athlete, or better as highlighted by the way he runs away from NFL corners. McCaffrey is not nearly as fast as Todd.

Ok, makes sense. Yeah, my recollection was that Gurley's speed was all-world, so I was surprised by a 4.52.

[Hawgdriver]

For objective comparison, John Ross ran a 10.64 100m in high school. Gurley ran a 10.70 in high school.

[Freyaka]

Well, Stink thinks LT's can rain from the heavens.

So does Joel...You don't want to start thinking like Joel do you? There isn't a worthwhile LT in this draft IMO...It's all Ty Sambrillo's in this draft. We already have one of those, why snag another?

[Poet]

So does Joel...You don't want to start thinking like Joel do you? There isn't a worthwhile LT in this draft IMO...It's all Ty Sambrillo's in this draft. We already have one of those, why snag another?

Two of those guys can play but only did it for one year. But the talent is there. Ramcyzk is the future...of something.

[Freyaka]

Two of those guys can play but only did it for one year. But the talent is there. Ramcyzk is the future...of something.

Even the guys in this draft class that have the potential to be good players aren't day one starters. There is no LT in this draft that's going to immediately provide us an impact.

If I'm being real honest, I think our starting LT is already on the roster. Last season we had some of the worst o-line coaching of all time. Clancy Barone should have NEVER been allowed to coach an o-line. None of the TE's he's ever worked with were very successful blockers and he's somehow supposed to make o-linemen block instead?

I our line will be far better than anticipated with proper coaching this season.

[Hawgdriver]

Cold water here--our line will most likely suck next year on the edges in pass pro, so hopefully McCoy's offense accounts for that weakness by finding ways to punish edge/speed guys, designed rollouts, 3-step, quick release, legit play action (as opposed to the now Broncos-standard play-inaction pass game) , etc.

Most important of all, minimum 10 bubble screens per game.

I'm not putting a lot of stock in getting these dudes coached up so they transform into suddenly improved players. If anything, I'd hope the coaches will design a system that the line buys into, a system that plays to their personal and group strengths.

A problem is that without the occasional 3+ second pass pro, defensive density collapses toward the LOS and the threat of DT & Emmanuel outside the 10 yard marker--the best part of the offense as it stands--becomes much less a factor.

Low expectations for the 2017 Broncos offense--as it stands.

[Poet]

Even the guys in this draft class that have the potential to be good players aren't day one starters. There is no LT in this draft that's going to immediately provide us an impact.

If I'm being real honest, I think our starting LT is already on the roster. Last season we had some of the worst o-line coaching of all time. Clancy Barone should have NEVER been allowed to coach an o-line. None of the TE's he's ever worked with were very successful blockers and he's somehow supposed to make o-linemen block instead?

I our line will be far better than anticipated with proper coaching this season.

CB was an example as to how bad Kubiak was as a head coach. I agree. Okung was bad last year. Rookie offensive lineman are typically bad. Just let the guy go out there and suck. He'll get better, and probably will be better than Okung in his second year.

[NightTerror218]

For those calling for mixon to be drafted. Mixon had another incident of hitting woman in high school that has come up and teams are looking into it to see if its a patterned behavior.

http://den.247sports.com/Bolt/Report-Joe-Mixon-allegedly-punched-female-in-high-school-52373260

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

For objective comparison, John Ross ran a 10.64 100m in high school. Gurley ran a 10.70 in high school.

John Ross is super freaky fast

[BroncoJoe]

Stink is on my shit list since he ignored me at the airport so I'll assume he's wrong.

You should have thrown a flag at him.

[Hawgdriver]

John Ross is super freaky fast

In the article I read, his former track coach said he could run faster than 4.22--noticed that his calf tightened during his last 4-5 strides. His coach saw it, said 'he's probably not happy with that run' (paraphrase).

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

In the article I read, his former track coach said he could run faster than 4.22--noticed that his calf tightened during his last 4-5 strides. His coach saw it, said 'he's probably not happy with that run' (paraphrase).

Haha, oh to be other world fast.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Gurley only being .06 slower is pretty impressive

[Hawgdriver]

Gurley only being .06 slower is pretty impressive

No joke. Truly all-world speed in NFL circles.

[spikerman]

You should have thrown a flag at him.

I think he said he held all the time.

[Simple Jaded]

For those calling for mixon to be drafted. Mixon had another incident of hitting woman in high school that has come up and teams are looking into it to see if its a patterned behavior.

http://den.247sports.com/Bolt/Report-Joe-Mixon-allegedly-punched-female-in-high-school-52373260

Same dude came out and said he was completely wrong.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/12147/joe-mixon

Reuben Foster 1st round
Joe Mixon 2nd round

**** clean cut All American wet dreams.

[Cugel]

Seriously I wanted McCaffrey until the draft season started, he got ****** in the Heisman, but it's become neauseating. 1043 devotes 13 hours a day to discussing a RB nobody in this town would give a rats fat ass about if he wasn't a perfect and white legacy.

If you toned this down about 10% I'd agree. I like Christian McCaffrey as a player. As a story, it's interesting. But, let's get real:

#1 - Christian McCaffrey is not coming to Denver. He might go as high as #8 to Carolina. There's a lot of talk around the NFL that they could use the versatile multi-purpose threat. The Eagles at #14 could take him. There's talk that the Indianapolis Colts at #15 need a playmaker on offense to help out Andrew Luck and could draft McCaffrey. There's also the Bucs at #19 who might take him ahead of the Broncos. His draft stock is soaring right now because he has no off-field issues or character concerns, there's no doubt how much football means to him, which means he's likely to put in the work to be the best that you need to, and teams don't have to worry "if we make this kid a 1st round draft pick and give him a boat-load of money how's he going to react to that?" Some guys become enamoured with building their brand and living the lifestyle instead of working to become better all the time. Etc.

Maybe some of that is hype, but you know NFL executives have convinced themselves it's true.

#2 - Elway has boxed himself in by failing miserably to get a LT in Free Agency. Now he's got to reach for a T who can try and come in and play in his rookie year. Every expert I hear says that just isn't going to work, it's the 2nd most difficult position to play in football. But, that's the grim meat-hook reality: the Broncos do not have a starting LT and there are none available. Unless he can swing a draft day trade for a starter or something, it's down to the draft.

#3 - For this reason, as much as I HATE the idea of reaching for a T in what is said by all analysts to be the WORST draft class for T's in the last 10-15 years - that's probably what they are going to do.

#4 - Result: Broncos probable draft picks in the first round are most likely to be Ryan Ramczyk, Bolles or Cam Robinson.

#5 - Given this situation, can the Broncos afford to trade up for Christian McCaffrey? First of all, there's no way the Broncos move up even 5 spots to get him, given what that would cost: to move from #20 (draft value = #850) to #15 (draft value = $1,050) costs around 200 points, which is about the 14th pick of the 3rd round. So the Broncos would have to give up a 3rd round pick, possibly more to move up.

Given all the other needs (G, RB, TE, LT, CB, and especially LB), no way can Elway afford to give up too much draft capital.

HOW I COULD BE WRONG: Don't bother attacking these views, because I refuse to defend them. I would like to see Christian McCaffrey as the pick, or really anybody EXCEPT a LT, but that's just not the way it looks right now. However, I hope I'm wrong.

So, how could I be wrong about this? Elway identifies a T he likes in the 2nd round - someone like this guy:


Julie'n Davenport, OT, Bucknell
Height: 6-6. Weight: 318. Arm: 36. Hand: 10.5.
40 Time: 5.45.
Projected Round (2017): 3-5.
Read more at http://walterfootball.com/draft2017OT.php#KwBLIfcB0f5m2lg7.99

He could possibly be available in the 2nd round, and maybe the Broncos think him, or some other T in this class is a "sleeper" - a guy who is underrated and could step in and become a good starter for you. I don't know.

But, if Elway thinks he's found a guy he can draft in a later round to fill the gaping hole at LT then that frees him up to draft the Best Player Available - and NOT for need.

There's all kinds of great playmakers who could fall to #20. Just look at what Elway's greatest draft successes were: Bradley Roby, who fell to #31, and Shane Ray who fell to #23. Both key starters for their defense now. You have to be flexible and able to grab a player if he falls, and not be locked into "we have to draft a T, we have to draft a T".

Teams that draft for NEED like the Browns and Lions, the Rams, the Jets, every year also SUCK every year. They are always looking to fill one hole or another, while the Steelers and the Falcons and the damnable Patriots are looking to draft PLAY MAKERS! And those teams tend to get better and better.

[Freyaka]

Cugel, another option of how you could be wrong (I'm not trying to say you are, but like you said, you want McCaffrey too, you just don't find it realistic) We have our LT on our roster already and with proper coaching he can develop into a solid starter. (though I do think we grab someone later in the draft as well)

We've got an easy trade partner in the Saints who are looking to move out of 11. That would bypass all of the threats to drafting McCaffrey other than Carolina. If Fornette is off the board by pick #8, we have zero chance of getting Christian. That's more of the bottom line than anything else. IF he falls past Carolina, I believe he ends up a Bronco, but I really don't think he'll drop past Carolina because Jacksonville needs a RB too.

[Cugel]

Guys who could fall who might be great additions to the team, and not just Christian McCaffrey who is very unlikely to be there?

TEs - OJ Howard who may fall due to injury concerns, or David NJoku

WR - John Ross the guy who ran the fastest 40 time at the combine. I don't like 1st round WRs but this guy has some potential to be a playmaker. Mike Williams could also be available and it might be tough to pass on the best WRs in the draft when the Broncos need an inside playmaker #3 WR. Bad.

S - Not a need right now, but TJ Ward is playing his final year of his contract and probably won't be back next season. IF Jabril Peppers is there at #20 would he be worth a look? Possibly.

So, there are lots of guys who might make an impact, it's just not at the Broncos biggest position of need.



LB - Reuben Foster - another immediate starter and impact player at the inside LB position who could fall due to injury concerns. He would be a huge addition to make the run defense better.

S -

[Cugel]

Cugel, another option of how you could be wrong (I'm not trying to say you are, but like you said, you want McCaffrey too, you just don't find it realistic) We have our LT on our roster already and with proper coaching he can develop into a solid starter. (though I do think we grab someone later in the draft as well)

We've got an easy trade partner in the Saints who are looking to move out of 11. That would bypass all of the threats to drafting McCaffrey other than Carolina. If Fornette is off the board by pick #8, we have zero chance of getting Christian. That's more of the bottom line than anything else. IF he falls past Carolina, I believe he ends up a Bronco, but I really don't think he'll drop past Carolina because Jacksonville needs a RB too.

So, you think he'll be taken in the top 10, but want to see the Broncos trade up to #11 to get him?

OK, let's look at that. Assuming you're right and the Saints are looking to trade down.


The Saints are in desperate need of an edge rusher to play across from Cameron Jordan. I have to believe they would love it if Taco Charlton would fall to them at No. 11, as Charlie Campbell reported in the NFL Draft Rumor Mill that one team believes the Michigan product will be a top-10 pick.

Charlton has great size, athleticism and length with great pass-rushing skills, and he would do a lot to improve New Orleans' stop unit.
Read more at http://walterfootball.com/draft2017.php#iyoAGF7pGP1acC3s.99

For this scenario to work, the Saints probably need to believe they could land a playmaking edge rusher at #20. Could such a playmaker be available there? Possibly.

Solomon Thomas, Stanford is probably long gone, but maybe Derek Barnett or Tim Williams of Alabama could be there? I don't know where the Saints have those players mocked, but let's assume they like a guy they could get at #20.

To move from #20 to #11 is 1300 points - 850 points = 450 points, which is equal to the #13 pick of the 2nd round. In short, the Broncos would need to trade their #1 plus their #2 pick, and even that wouldn't be 450 points. Perhaps the Saints would do the deal, but would it be worth it to give up a 2nd round pick to get a RB in the first round?

I'd say no. Too much to give up. That trade probably won't happen. And the Saints probably won't take just a 3rd + a 1st to move down that far.

Assuming the Broncos did this, how would they be in position to draft a LT? You're assuming that Ty Sambrailo or Donald [gulp] Stephenson is suddenly going to become a long-term starting LT when both have only sucked so far? OK. I don't believe you can count on that, but we'll see.

I've already posted Mark Schlereth's rant on this subject in another thread. He calls it "a pipe dream." He knows a lot more than I do about playing OL, and Tyler Polumbus who managed to play 8 years in the NFL agrees with him. I don't know, but it doesn't sound very likely to me. Both those guys were really terrible when we last saw them. To assume they suddenly make a huge jump in one off-season due to coaching?

Well, maybe, but it's a bit of a long shot really.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but every single mock draft I've seen has the Broncos drafting an OL at #20, they just disagree about who: Some say they could take a top G, like Forrest Lamp and possibly move him to T at a later date. This also sounds dubious to me, but. . . .

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Bolles

[Freyaka]

So, you think he'll be taken in the top 10, but want to see the Broncos trade up to #11 to get him?

OK, let's look at that. Assuming you're right and the Saints are looking to trade down.


For this scenario to work, the Saints probably need to believe they could land a playmaking edge rusher at #20. Could such a playmaker be available there? Possibly.

Solomon Thomas, Stanford is probably long gone, but maybe Derek Barnett or Tim Williams of Alabama could be there? I don't know where the Saints have those players mocked, but let's assume they like a guy they could get at #20.

To move from #20 to #11 is 1300 points - 850 points = 450 points, which is equal to the #13 pick of the 2nd round. In short, the Broncos would need to trade their #1 plus their #2 pick, and even that wouldn't be 450 points. Perhaps the Saints would do the deal, but would it be worth it to give up a 2nd round pick to get a RB in the first round?

I'd say no. Too much to give up. That trade probably won't happen. And the Saints probably won't take just a 3rd + a 1st to move down that far.

Assuming the Broncos did this, how would they be in position to draft a LT? You're assuming that Ty Sambrailo or Donald [gulp] Stephenson is suddenly going to become a long-term starting LT when both have only sucked so far? OK. I don't believe you can count on that, but we'll see.

I've already posted Mark Schlereth's rant on this subject in another thread. He calls it "a pipe dream." He knows a lot more than I do about playing OL, and Tyler Polumbus who managed to play 8 years in the NFL agrees with him. I don't know, but it doesn't sound very likely to me. Both those guys were really terrible when we last saw them. To assume they suddenly make a huge jump in one off-season due to coaching?

Well, maybe, but it's a bit of a long shot really.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but every single mock draft I've seen has the Broncos drafting an OL at #20, they just disagree about who: Some say they could take a top G, like Forrest Lamp and possibly move him to T at a later date. This also sounds dubious to me, but. . . .

I'm saying IF he makes it past the top 10, yes I want us to trade up for him. If he doesn't make it out of the top 10, it's a moot point and we take what we can get from the players remaining and move on with our lives.

I can't see us taking an OT with the first no matter what. None of the players out there are immediate impact players, I can't see us wasting a first on them no matter how much the perceived need is for an LT right now.

[Hawgdriver]

#2 - Elway has boxed himself in by failing miserably to get a LT in Free Agency. Now he's got to reach for a T who can try and come in and play in his rookie year. Every expert I hear says that just isn't going to work, it's the 2nd most difficult position to play in football. But, that's the grim meat-hook reality: the Broncos do not have a starting LT and there are none available. Unless he can swing a draft day trade for a starter or something, it's down to the draft.

Disagree. One of the meh swing tackles will start at LT and offensive system will have to accommodate that player's strengths and weaknesses. That's the apparent personnel solution.

[MOtorboat]

Disagree. One of the meh swing tackles will start at LT and offensive system will have to accommodate that player's strength's and weaknesses. That's the apparent personnel solution.

Elway will do the same thing he always does. He has it narrowed down to several players in the first round and he'll either draft the one he wants or move around to get there to do it. There's absolutely no way Elway is sitting there targeting a position unless he likes a specific player at that position in the first round. We have enough drafting history for Elway to know this. He doesn't "have to reach" for anything and he won't.

The only position I'm not comfortable watching him draft is quarterback.

[Buff]

Elway will do the same thing he always does. He has it narrowed down to several players in the first round and he'll either draft the one he wants or move around to get there to do it. There's absolutely no way Elway is sitting there targeting a position unless he likes a specific player at that position in the first round. We have enough drafting history for Elway to know this. He doesn't "have to reach" for anything and he won't.

The only position I'm not comfortable watching him draft is quarterback.

I think Elway went into last year determined to get a QB in the first round.

[Poet]

Well, if PL is on the bench again and JE wanted to play the long game he's definitely walking down that road.

[MOtorboat]

I think Elway went into last year determined to get a QB in the first round.

I think that we have to make the assumption that it was Lynch, specifically, that he was targeting.

[NightTerror218]

I think that we have to make the assumption that it was Lynch, specifically, that he was targeting.

Hence why he traded up. He would not have waited and taken the best QB available.

[DT88TheGreat]

Yeah Lynch is definitely elways guy, Lynch almost has to work out for Elway QB eye to not lose credibility. You can't draft two of them high in the draft and both flame out like Brock has. The only thing that could save him is Trevor turns into a stud quarterback and makes the search for a QB end. Which I doubt will happen. Elway seems fine with Trevor until he gets somebody to replace him and he's hoping it's lynch or else it's back to the draft for one at some point in the next few years.

[Cugel]

So does Joel...You don't want to start thinking like Joel do you? There isn't a worthwhile LT in this draft IMO...It's all Ty Sambrillo's in this draft. We already have one of those, why snag another?

That's been my position all along. There's not one Ryan Clady in this draft, and if there was the guy would be taken in the top 5 picks, maybe top 3. And the Broncos will never draft that high under Elway (hopefully).

I think if cloned 10 Ryan Cladys and they all entered in this draft they would all get taken in the first round, probably 3 or 4 of them in the top 10. About 1/2 the teams in the NFL could use an upgrade at LT.

Meanwhile there are great TE prospects like OJ Howard and David Njoku who would instantly give the Broncos a serious threat in the middle of the field. Remember how in 2013 we were a Red Zone terror because Peyton had 5 targets; D.T., Decker, Wes Welker, Julius Thomas - who was a matchup nightmare, and even if all those guys were covered, they still had Knowshon Moreno catching 60 passes out of the backfield. There was simply no way to cover all those guys. Result? Denver led the league in Red Zone scoring percentage. And that translates into wins (13 wins and a SB appearance that year).

Denver now has 2 threats - DT and Sanders and you can double both of them. An ordinary LB or S can cover all of Denver's other offensive players no problem. Hell, you practically don't even have to cover Virgil Green he's so invisible.

Especially with inexperienced and maybe not elite QBs they desperately need playmakers on offense. We got no Gronkowski, no Devonta Freeman who had 1500 all purpose yards and 13 TDs. And there are guys in this draft who could fill those roles.

You can't win all the time with just defense. It's still an offense driven league. Great defense can make up for a lack of a Hall of Fame QB to match up with Tom Brady or Ben Roethlisberger, but the offense has to have a lot more weapons. And none of the guys on the current roster outside Sanders & D.T. qualify.

Maybe better coaching and a better offensive scheme can help, but in the NFL talent wins out most of the time, and Denver just does not have a lot of talent on offense.

That's why I don't want a T in the first round - because while that guy might eventually develop into a solid player, none of those draft picks project right now to be All Pros. And you cannot expect any of them to step in and excel in their rookie season.

And how long can the defense continue to be an elite SB winning Defense? Another year? Two?

I swear, this draft is shaping up like being a kid in a candy store, there's all these great chocolate treats - and your parents buy you a big steaming plate of brussel sprouts and try and tell you "they're good for you! You'll thank me later." No, actually I won't.

I don't want friggin' brussel sprouts! I want a big glistening ice cream cone with John Ross or David Njoku or maybe even OJ Howard or possibly Reuben Foster - with sprinkles on top!

[Cugel]

Yeah Lynch is definitely elways guy, Lynch almost has to work out for Elway QB eye to not lose credibility. You can't draft two of them high in the draft and both flame out like Brock has. The only thing that could save him is Trevor turns into a stud quarterback and makes the search for a QB end. Which I doubt will happen. Elway seems fine with Trevor until he gets somebody to replace him and he's hoping it's lynch or else it's back to the draft for one at some point in the next few years.

Elway needs to know if he has to go back to the draft in 2018 and take a QB in the first round or not. And to do that he needs to see Paxton in action this season. Trevor is a nice surprise - a 7th round pick nobody thought was anything but a practice squad arm, suddenly wins the starting job.

But, realistically, he'd have to improve at least as much this season as he did last year to be any good. And then in his 3rd season he'd have to improve as much again to become a top 10 QB.

He has literally twice as far to go as he's already done. I'm not saying he can't. But, there's not much precedent for a 7th round QB becoming a top 10 guy in this league over the last 25 years. Out of all the guys taken who can we name? Brady, Tony Romo and Kurt Warner. That's pretty much about it.

So, we're talking hundreds of QBs taken in the later rounds or undrafted and maybe 3 guys who actually panned out to be top 10 QBs eventually ? Trevor is just not the way to bet.

[slim]

I think that we have to make the assumption that it was Lynch, specifically, that he was targeting.

Why should we make that assumption?

[Hawgdriver]

I don't want friggin' brussel sprouts! I want a big glistening ice cream cone with John Ross or David Njoku or maybe even OJ Howard or possibly Reuben Foster - with sprinkles on top!

I can get behind that, but I'm not sure about Ross...I mean, we don't have tackles that can ensure 3+ second pass pro to benefit from Ross's separation ability.

[MOtorboat]

Why should we make that assumption?

Because of his drafting history and because he moved up to get him.

[Freyaka]

Why should we make that assumption?

I mean I'm not even pulling for lynch and I'd say that is a safe assumption.

[dogfish]

Why should we make that assumption?

because MO is short, and knows things. . .

[MOtorboat]

because MO is short, and knows things. . .

You got the quote wrong.

[Simple Jaded]

Cam Robinson and Garett Bolles > McCaffrey.

Elway's credibility will be just fine regardless of Paxton Lynch, that's nonsense, it's college spread QB's that lose out each time one flops in the NFL.

[Poet]

I mean I'm not even pulling for lynch and I'd say that is a safe assumption.

I thought you wanted the best guy to win out? Ergo, you could be pulling for Lynch.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I can get behind that, but I'm not sure about Ross...I mean, we don't have tackles that can ensure 3+ second pass pro to benefit from Ross's separation ability.

Ross can work the middle of the field, plus the return game.

[Cugel]

Elway will do the same thing he always does. He has it narrowed down to several players in the first round and he'll either draft the one he wants or move around to get there to do it. There's absolutely no way Elway is sitting there targeting a position unless he likes a specific player at that position in the first round. We have enough drafting history for Elway to know this. He doesn't "have to reach" for anything and he won't.

The only position I'm not comfortable watching him draft is quarterback.

Yes. But, what player does he like and why? If he drafts a tackle in the first round, and passes on players who turn out to be impact players for their teams in year 1, while that tackle either doesn't start game 1 or else struggles, do you think anybody but idiots will say "Well Elway drafted the best player available."

He tried and failed to find a LT in FA. Thus, a crying need. Which he then drafted to fill.

If he drafts a T, well fine. We'll watch and see. But, if it doesn't work out, that proves the critics right and Elway wrong. He's made mistakes before in the draft, lots of them in fact , especially in the 2nd and 3rd rounds (Montee Ball, Rahim Moore, Brock Osweiler, etc., etc.). So, that's not impossible.

[Simple Jaded]

Ross can work the middle of the field, plus the return game.

If Denver went 3-Wide Ross would probably be the slot. Good lawd!

[Hawgdriver]

Ross can work the middle of the field, plus the return game.

He can but not his strength...not why you draft him

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

He can but not his strength...not why you draft him

I hope we don't pass freakish speed because of a bad LT, that could be swapped out in another 12 months if we find one sooner.

[Hawgdriver]

I hope we don't pass freakish speed because of a bad LT, that could be swapped out in another 12 months if we find one sooner.

Yeah.

[Poet]

If we take a LT who has a first round grade, if they're even decent in their second year, they'll outdo the impact of any offensive player taken in this draft. Look, this draft has a lot of sick talent, and I for one would like to take a player who isn't a LT while somehow fixing the LT hole as well. Obviously that would be incredible. I'm not sure we can do that. But the better way to look at this is that next year when a quarter of the league is paying a huge chunk of their cap to legitimately horrible players, our cap space not spent on Okung means we can go after another big name. Or, resign our defensive players.

So yeah, I'm hoping we can somehow trade back, bag a tackle, get another second rounder/third rounder, and start looking at adding more starters to the team.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Yeah.

"Yeah" that was horrible English, or "yeah" you understood what I was saying?

[Hawgdriver]

"Yeah" that was horrible English, or "yeah" you understood what I was saying?

Yeah, you don't sacrifice 5 years for 1 year.

[dogfish]

You got the quote wrong.

then you can assume i meant to. . . :coffee:


in all honesty, i don't even know where the quote comes from-- is it a game of thrones thing or something?




"Yeah" that was horrible English, or "yeah" you understood what I was saying?

just go with it. . .

[Poet]

It is a GoT reference, yes. Dogfish, I'm tired of you forsaking me. Show me some damn love, you hippie ****!

If we draft the Calf I'll be happy. If only because Jaded doesn't want him.

[MOtorboat]

then you can assume i meant to. . . :coffee:


in all honesty, i don't even know where the quote comes from-- is it a game of thrones thing or something?





just go with it. . .

I drink. And I know things.

[dogfish]

Dogfish, I'm tired of you forsaking me. Show me some damn love, you hippie ****!


huh?




I drink. And I know things.

yea, well, i drink and i don't know shit. . .

[Poet]

I'm just talking shit, doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooog.

I think CM is gone by pick 16.

[Jsteve01]

I'm just talking shit, doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooog.

I think CM is gone by pick 16.

I can't see at 8. And much as I like him that's way too high. I don't know that Rivera is going to draft the gadget player that high. 14 really doesn't make sense to me either I think the people that we really have to worry about are the Colts and the Buccaneers. I used to live in Philly and everybody out there likes McCaffrey but the general consensus is they're going to DB

[DT88TheGreat]

Cam Robinson and Garett Bolles > McCaffrey.

Elway's credibility will be just fine regardless of Paxton Lynch, that's nonsense, it's college spread QB's that lose out each time one flops in the NFL.

Not really when NFL teams keep drafting ( spread quarterbacks). A HOF goat QB like elway would lose credibility if Lynch flames out like Brock. It would likely mean that the Broncos would need to look into a GM or something. Someone else who evaluates and etc.

[DT88TheGreat]

Yes. But, what player does he like and why? If he drafts a tackle in the first round, and passes on players who turn out to be impact players for their teams in year 1, while that tackle either doesn't start game 1 or else struggles, do you think anybody but idiots will say "Well Elway drafted the best player available."

He tried and failed to find a LT in FA. Thus, a crying need. Which he then drafted to fill.

If he drafts a T, well fine. We'll watch and see. But, if it doesn't work out, that proves the critics right and Elway wrong. He's made mistakes before in the draft, lots of them in fact , especially in the 2nd and 3rd rounds (Montee Ball, Rahim Moore, Brock Osweiler, etc., etc.). So, that's not impossible.

He didn't fail in free agency, there were no legit LT available, he signed the best O linemen in free agency who happens to be a guard, and a great one at that, he then signed watson who has LT potential, and if not he'd surely be our RT and a huge upgrade there. So either Sambrello takes a huge leap or we draft Robinson, bolles or ramcyk and hope which ever one it is performs decent in his rookie year. Lining up next to a veteran all pro Leary has to help.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Yeah, you don't sacrifice 5 years for 1 year.

I see...when I read my post again it was almost indiscernible to me. 😆

[MOtorboat]

Not really when NFL teams keep drafting ( spread quarterbacks). A HOF goat QB like elway would lose credibility if Lynch flames out like Brock. It would likely mean that the Broncos would need to look into a GM or something. Someone else who evaluates and etc.

Fair warning: Jaded hates (HATES) the shotgun.

[Cugel]

If we take a LT who has a first round grade, if they're even decent in their second year, they'll outdo the impact of any offensive player taken in this draft. Look, this draft has a lot of sick talent, and I for one would like to take a player who isn't a LT while somehow fixing the LT hole as well. Obviously that would be incredible. I'm not sure we can do that. But the better way to look at this is that next year when a quarter of the league is paying a huge chunk of their cap to legitimately horrible players, our cap space not spent on Okung means we can go after another big name. Or, resign our defensive players.

So yeah, I'm hoping we can somehow trade back, bag a tackle, get another second rounder/third rounder, and start looking at adding more starters to the team.

I'm going to post a thread with a long rant by former 4-time All Pro & 13 seasons Colts LT for Peyton Manning Jeff Saturday in which he totally disagrees with this analysis.

I don't want to spoil too much, but he argues that having a great offensive line is overrated and that super bowls are won by offensive playmakers. (Certainly, the Broncos 2015 SB as well as the Bucs' 2003 SB, the Ravens 2000 win, and the '85 Bears were exceptions, but generally he's right).

BTW: Your way is to totally PUNT on any chance of winning the SB in 2017, because the Broncos don't have enough playmakers on offense. Their offense was putrid in 2016 not because their offensive line was so bad (Seattle's was worse and they were in the playoffs) but because of poor QB play by rookie starters and a generally total lack of talent at TE, RB (after CJ was hurt), and the lack of an effective #3 WR. Yes, they weren't great at running the ball, but in part that's because teams didn't fear the Broncos offense going deep on them so they could overplay the run. That and the Broncos receivers couldn't create mismatches. You could double team Sanders & DT and put a LB on any other Broncos offensive player - no problem. None of their TEs are serious threats and none of their RBs could catch the ball coming out of the backfield.

None of them could run the ball outside CJ too. I expect the Broncos to draft a TE and possibly 2 because this is perhaps the best class for TE in decades, a WR, a CB, a RB or maybe 2 RBs if there's one available in the 7th they like. Oh, and a T and a LB because there's a lot of depth at LB, and a CB somewhere. They have 10 picks after all.

[Valar Morghulis]

I'm going to post a thread with a long rant by former 4-time All Pro & 13 seasons Colts LT for Peyton Manning Jeff Saturday in which he totally disagrees with this analysis. I don't want to spoil too much, but he argues that having a great offensive line is overrated and that super bowls are won by offensive playmakers. (Certainly, the Broncos 2015 SB as well as the Bucs' 2003 SB, the Ravens 2000 win, and the '85 Bears were exceptions, but generally he's right).

Offense wins championships!

[Cugel]

He didn't fail in free agency, there were no legit LT available, he signed the best O linemen in free agency who happens to be a guard, and a great one at that, he then signed watson who has LT potential, and if not he'd surely be our RT and a huge upgrade there. So either Sambrello takes a huge leap or we draft Robinson, bolles or ramcyk and hope which ever one it is performs decent in his rookie year. Lining up next to a veteran all pro Leary has to help.

Bullshit. There were lots of "legitimate" LTs available, they were just very expensive. All the fans kept bagging on Okung, but former NFL linemen analyzed his play and said he wasn't great but he wasn't terrible either. There was a reason he got $13M a year from the Chargers you know and it's not because they are terminally stupid.

He had similar but slightly less offers from other teams as well. THAT is the market, it's supply and demand.

Whitworth got $15M a year. Is he a great T? Yes. He's also 35 so a 2 year commitment is a risk and it's a lot of money to spend, but there's no questioning his talent level. He's proven it for years. There were a bunch of other T's none of whom was Elite, but all of whom were decent players more than capable of holding down their position.

Elway blew it when he failed to sign one of them. And history will prove me right about this unless he manages to trade for a T or else perhaps pick up a veteran who gets cut over the summer.

But, if they go into the season with Ty Sambrailo, Donald Stephenson, Michael Schofield (why? Just why oh, Lord?!) or a rookie starting at LT then yes, Elway will have failed and don't expect Siemian to last very long before becoming a grease spot on the turf!

[Cugel]

Offense wins championships!

It certainly won this year didn't it? Tom Brady down by 25 points? That wasn't the awesome Patriots defense that won that game. And it wasn't the awesome Falcons defense that built that lead. And the other 2 QBs in the conference championships? Rogers & Roethlisberger, neither of whom has much of a defense backing him.

[MOtorboat]

Again, Okung was awful and was a turnstyle. I again applaud Elway for not being an idiot. You can pay a lot less for that lack of productivity.

[Cugel]

Again, Okung was awful and was a turnstyle. I again applaud Elway for not being an idiot. You can pay a lot less for that lack of productivity.

You're wrong and the $13m a year contract proves it! A bunch of NFL teams wanted him for similar money too, which means they thought he could do the job. NFL GMs know more about the value of players than you!

Just because stupid fans think Okung was "a turnstyle" doesn't mean it was true. His play has been described by plenty of former NFL linemen as "average" and that's about what he was.

For some reason some fans always think players make "too much" and that "they're not worth it". Well, they are worth it unless one team's offer is wildly out of proportion to other teams'. A bunch of teams bidding at the same level for a player means - that's what he's worth.

Every team can field a "turnstyle" to play LT. The Broncos have Stephenson, Sambrailo and Schofield already and any of them could play LT, they'd just suck a lot worse than Okung. The fact that there was such a market for Okung means he was viewed as an average LT and NOT "terrible." That's just ignorant fan opinion!

[MOtorboat]

Another team's stupidity doesn't prove you right. Okung was awful and lucky to get that contract. If anything, it speaks to the quality of the market which was poor.

[dogfish]

Fair warning: Jaded hates (HATES) the shotgun.

yea, but he loves the pistol like it's his child. . .

[MOtorboat]

yea, but he loves the pistol like it's his child. . .

:laugh:

A red-headed step child?

[MOtorboat]

Just to illustrate, here are the 14 tackles who had an approximate value of 7 in 2016 and their 2017 salary (per www.pro-football-reference.com and www.spotrac.com).


Player Year Age Tm Lg G GS Yrs PB AP1 AV Salary
Russell Okung 2016 29 DEN NFL 16 16 1 0 0 7 $13,250,000
Cordy Glenn 2016 27 BUF NFL 11 11 1 0 0 7 $12,000,000
Kelvin Beachum 2016 27 JAX NFL 15 15 1 0 0 7 $8,000,000
Marcus Gilbert 2016 28 PIT NFL 13 13 1 0 0 7 $6,163,000
Bobby Massie 2016 27 CHI NFL 15 15 1 0 0 7 $6,000,000
Demar Dotson 2016 31 TAM NFL 13 13 1 0 0 7 $5,500,000
Ereck Flowers 2016 22 NYG NFL 16 16 1 0 0 7 $3,597,930
D.J. Humphries 2016 23 ARI NFL 13 13 1 0 0 7 $2,228,028
Garry Gilliam 2016 26 SEA NFL 14 13 1 0 0 7 $2,200,000
M. Schofield 2016 26 DEN NFL 16 16 1 0 0 7 $694,300
Kevin Pamphile 2016 26 TAM NFL 14 14 1 0 0 7 $604,625
Denzelle Good 2016 25 IND NFL 12 10 1 0 0 7 $583,196
Charles Leno 2016 25 CHI NFL 16 16 1 0 0 7 $566,628
King Dunlap 2016 31 SDG NFL 12 12 1 0 0 7 Free Agent


Wildly overpaid and a bad contract for the Chargers.

[MOtorboat]

Oh, and about those rookie tackles that can't play. Three of them were better than Okung last season and those three guys will make, combined, $6 million less than Okung next season.

[Valar Morghulis]

yea, but he loves the pistol like it's his child. . .

He calls it the sweet sweety pistola

[MOtorboat]

He calls it the sweet sweety pistola

That sounds like a sandwich at an Italian deli.

[Poet]

Oh, and about those rookie tackles that can't play. Three of them were better than Okung last season and those three guys will make, combined, $6 million less than Okung next season.

I have been making this argument. They ain't listening. He hate me.

[Simple Jaded]

It is a GoT reference, yes. Dogfish, I'm tired of you forsaking me. Show me some damn love, you hippie ****!

If we draft the Calf I'll be happy. If only because Jaded doesn't want him.
Who is Calf?

[Poet]

Who is Calf?

A certain RB you think is a second rounder and on par with Giovanni Bernard.

[Simple Jaded]

A certain RB you think is a second rounder and on par with Giovanni Bernard.

Doesn't ring a bell.

[Simple Jaded]

Not really when NFL teams keep drafting ( spread quarterbacks). A HOF goat QB like elway would lose credibility if Lynch flames out like Brock. It would likely mean that the Broncos would need to look into a GM or something. Someone else who evaluates and etc.

So now John Elway can't evaluate QB's, sounds legit.

They keep drafting spread QB's cause the physical talent is there, what is a new GM going to see that everyone didn't?

[Simple Jaded]

Fair warning: Jaded hates (HATES) the shotgun.

You spelled shitgun wrong.

[Poet]

Jaded, I thought you hated the idea of getting McCaffery in the first round?

[Simple Jaded]

Jaded, I thought you hated the idea of getting McCaffery in the first round?

I do, hates it. He's a gadget RB. 1st round is for Gurley and Elliott.

[NightTerror218]

I do, hates it. He's a gadget RB. 1st round is for Gurley and Elliott.

I like him because he can be a jamaal charles and returner. He may nit be a step in and be all pro but he could huge contributer.

[Simple Jaded]

I like him because he can be a jamaal charles and returner. He may nit be a step in and be all pro but he could huge contributer.

I like McCaffrey, a lot, I should point that out. PR is my thing this draft, there's some really good options that can also contribute to offense and/or defense.

[Poet]

I like him because he can be a jamaal charles and returner. He may nit be a step in and be all pro but he could huge contributer.

He is not a Charles type of guy. Charles, despite his stature, ran with a fair amount of power and ran lower to the ground.

[MOtorboat]

I like him because he can be a jamaal charles and returner. He may nit be a step in and be all pro but he could huge contributer.

Um, McCaffrey is a nice do-everything type back. He is not Charles. Charles was a world-class sprinter before football, McCaffrey is not.

[Simple Jaded]

Jamal Charles was a 3rd round pick, just sayin.

[Poet]

Jamal Charles was a 3rd round pick, just sayin.

LeVeon Bell was a second round pick, too. David Johnson wasn't highly touted, either. RB's are weird. From what I've read, Caff can make it as a runner in zone blocking scheme. Do you know if we're still projected to run one?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

LeVeon Bell was a second round pick, too. David Johnson wasn't highly touted, either. RB's are weird. From what I've read, Caff can make it as a runner in zone blocking scheme. Do you know if we're still projected to run one?

McCoy is more of a power scheme guy but is good at adapting to his players strengths

[Simple Jaded]

LeVeon Bell was a second round pick, too. David Johnson wasn't highly touted, either. RB's are weird. From what I've read, Caff can make it as a runner in zone blocking scheme. Do you know if we're still projected to run one?

Denver is going to more of a power run system but they'll be in Shitgun 88% of the time which means they'll need a RB proficient at running glorified draw plays.

I don't think McCaffrey is just a zone RB though.

[Poet]

He doesn't have the build to run between the tackles a lot. To me, as a runner, he screams one cut and go.

[Simple Jaded]

Yeah I would ground and pound McCaffrey, especially if you wanna use him as a returner and slot. He's already got a ton of miles on him, he was Stanfords entire offense for two seasons.

[underrated29]

I think he is a terrible fit for a ZBS. I do not understand the writer that said that. Casserly?

ZBS requires power, one cut and go. None of those are Cmac....

TD, Reuben Droughns, Orlandis Gary, Portis,MIke bell, Mike Anderson, Arian Foster,- These are all strong tackle breakers who plant and go.


Know who did not do well in ZBS?
Tatum bell, quentin griffin, hillman, Selvin young, ----that is more CMac.


I think he is exactly what you dont want in a ZBS. CMac is a juker, a shifty back, he is not 1 cut and go. He will not break tackles, He finds holes and space. That is not ZBS. He will be better fit in power where he can pick and choose his openings. PS- we are running more power but will run zone concepts as well.

[MOtorboat]

What's Tatum up to these days?

[Valar Morghulis]

What's Tatum up to these days?

I liked him in Magic Mike

[NightTerror218]

Christian would be good runner out of shotgun with his style. He does not need a running start to hit a whole. He has the same running style as bell. The pacients for a whole to open and blocking develope. But the fact he can sneak out and catch the ball for decent gains is key to mccoy offense. Moreno was used heavily as WR. He went out and got danny woodhead for chargers. Christian is the best receiving RB in draft. I think he is a bettwr version of sproles because he can take more of a load.

[NightTerror218]

Jamal Charles was a 3rd round pick, just sayin.

And in a draft redu he would be a 1st rounder no question. 3rd was a steal.

[MOtorboat]

I liked him in Magic Mike

Well, of course you did.

[Poet]

I think he is a terrible fit for a ZBS. I do not understand the writer that said that. Casserly?

ZBS requires power, one cut and go. None of those are Cmac....

TD, Reuben Droughns, Orlandis Gary, Portis,MIke bell, Mike Anderson, Arian Foster,- These are all strong tackle breakers who plant and go.


Know who did not do well in ZBS?
Tatum bell, quentin griffin, hillman, Selvin young, ----that is more CMac.


I think he is exactly what you dont want in a ZBS. CMac is a juker, a shifty back, he is not 1 cut and go. He will not break tackles, He finds holes and space. That is not ZBS. He will be better fit in power where he can pick and choose his openings. PS- we are running more power but will run zone concepts as well.

When the ZBS works, you get 'bigger holes' (I laughed as I typed that because I'm 12) than the typical avenues opened in a man-to-man scheme. Bell had a good YPC with Denver, but he certainly wasn't any good. Hillman played on shit lines. I don't recall Griffin, and Young's best season was under a ZBS, no?

[underrated29]

When the ZBS works, you get 'bigger holes' (I laughed as I typed that because I'm 12) than the typical avenues opened in a man-to-man scheme. Bell had a good YPC with Denver, but he certainly wasn't any good. Hillman played on shit lines. I don't recall Griffin, and Young's best season was under a ZBS, no?


Point is the guys I listed- droughns, adams, TD, portis, etc...they all were ballers in the zbs. Near league best.
The other smaller guys never were. They all were meh. Mediocre. In the ZBS you have to have the size and strength to run through tackles. Cmac does not.

Selvin youngs best year was in ZBS because he was so bad he never played for another team.

The holes are designed to be bigger but you still have arm tackles to run through, and push the pile, once you hit the second level youre gone. But Cmac cannot do that. He is a slasher, a lesean mccoy, cut in and out, juke here and there. Read the blocks and cut one way, then cut another. His style is not conducive to ZBS imo. Not that it is bad and most teams run ZBS in some form, but I think he would be much better in pbs....Think about him on the pats...hed be so deadly there. They are not ZBS.

I just hope he goes to a team I do not hate. But I still believe he is not best suited for a ZBS. He is too erratic. He makes/finds his own holes ( laughed because we are both 12)

[Poet]

Right but they played on much better lines....Man...I'm not sold on your stance. Needing size and strength isn't limited to just that type of scheme - but in a ZBS when you hit the hole and there's someone in the second level the better guys on that list made people miss. More often than not the power backs play behind a man-to-man scheme. One doesn't preclude the other.

[MOtorboat]

Love me some Tatum Bell.

[underrated29]

Right but they played on much better lines....Man...I'm not sold on your stance. Needing size and strength isn't limited to just that type of scheme - but in a ZBS when you hit the hole and there's someone in the second level the better guys on that list made people miss. More often than not the power backs play behind a man-to-man scheme. One doesn't preclude the other.



It is my fault because I am not presenting it properly. I may be incapable of doing so today too.
Every successful ZBS runner had 1 thing in common, they could push the pile and run through tackles That guy in washington 3 years ago is another example. All were 215+ with leg drive. All of those who were in the ZBS taht sucked or fizzled out- they werent big enough.

They did not all have great lines. Steve Slaton played behind the same as foster. Quentin griffen played behind the same line as Reuben Droughns- 1 was a 1k runner and the other had 1 game against the chiefs and was abysmal after that.

Also in ZBS, you break through the arm tackles, pile and then go. Cmac zigs and zags, you do not do that in ZBS. He certainly can turn on the jets and go once he gets a hole, im not saying that. He cannot (as effectively) run through the tacklers and push the pile like is required in zbs as the bigger backs.

Backs in this daft off the top of my head perfect for ZBS:
Fournette, Mixon, Hill, Perine, Kamara (I think he a bust),

Guys who arent:
Cmac, Cohen, Mack,


Not sure if I am presenting this better or not, but ZBS needs a big back. If not, they will not be nearly as effective. No speed or slash back ever rocked it or lead the league (or got close) in rushing in the ZBS.

[underrated29]

Did that help at all, or should I just go outside and kick myself in the balls?

[MOtorboat]

Are we running ZBS?

[Poet]

Are we running ZBS?

I've been told that McCoy doesn't run ZBS.

[underrated29]

Are we running ZBS?


I've been told that McCoy doesn't run ZBS.



We will be running some ZBS yes, but it is not primary. (so to further my take- Cmac is a better for us because we are not primary ZBS

[MOtorboat]

I've been told that McCoy doesn't run ZBS.

All teams run it some of the time, I just thought I remembered McCoy using some more power run blocking schemes when he was here, especially with Tebow and McGahee.

[slim]

All teams run it some of the time, I just thought I remembered McCoy using some more power run blocking schemes when he was here, especially with Tebow and McGahee.

McCoy is a powerful man.

[MOtorboat]

McCoy is a powerful man.

I see what you did there.

[slim]

I see what you did there.

Give me your thoughts on McCaffery

[MOtorboat]

Give me your thoughts on McCaffery

He's pretty quick. I'm a little surprised he's going to be a first round pick (more because of position or kind of a lack of one and how that has been viewed in the past), but I think he adds a different dimension to any offense that picks him up.

[slim]

He's pretty quick. I'm a little surprised he's going to be a first round pick (more because of position or kind of a lack of one and how that has been viewed in the past), but I think he adds a different dimension to any offense that picks him up.

Yeah, but would you hit it?

[MOtorboat]

Yeah, but would you hit it?

Probably not, slim. You're projecting.

[slim]

Probably not, slim. You're projecting.

Are you sure?

He can fill multiple holes.

[Poet]

Mo is really beating Slim badly right now. Slim, stop embarrassing yourself you sass bitch.

[slim]

Mo is really beating Slim badly right now. Slim, stop embarrassing yourself you sass bitch.

We are having a discussion that does not include you.

Bow to your King.

[MOtorboat]

Are you sure?

He can fill multiple holes.

Should I psych this?

How does that make you feel, slim?

[Poet]

We are having a discussion that does not include you.

Bow to your King.

I can't seem to find Wilt Chamberlain at the moment. He is my king.

[slim]

Should I psych this?

How does that make you feel, slim?

I don't understand the question.

[slim]

I can't seem to find Wilt Chamberlain at the moment. He is my king.

I thought he was dead.

[Poet]

I thought he was dead.

Probably why I can't find him.

[slim]

Probably why I can't find him.

Did you check hell?

[Hawgdriver]

Are you sure?

He can fill multiple holes.

#fillholes

[Hawgdriver]

Mo is really beating Slim badly right now. Slim, stop embarrassing yourself you sass bitch.

I thought you hated underdogs?

[Poet]

I thought you hated underdogs?

Mo is a giant on these boards.

[Freyaka]

Did that help at all, or should I just go outside and kick myself in the balls?

I mean, even if it did help, by all means, go kick yourself in the balls dude. Make sure to youtube that crap!

[Cugel]

Are we running ZBS?

No. They fired all the offensive coaches who liked to run that scheme under Kubiak, and hired McCoy who doesn't. Paxton Lynch and Siemian have both let slip in interviews that they were told the offense would try and throw downfield more, and Emannuel Sanders and D.T. are happy that they've "got my play back" - the bubble screen. D.T. loves that play and has taken it for more than 1 TD. If they use more shotgun it could help Paxton who is most comfortable in that system.

Trevor would like to be allowed to do more also. Last year both QBs were basically told "just don't screw things up by turning the ball over." They were not permitted to go out to win the game, just try not to lose it.

This year things should be considerably loosened up on offense. Whether that's a good thing depends on the play of the QBs. I suppose if the starter starts turning the ball over a lot, they could dial it back. But, it looks from the outside that they want to open up the offense more, especially taking more shots downfield with the idea of making the defense play more honest.

I would assume that throwing more from the gun would require some decent pass blocking though. . . .

[MOtorboat]

No. They fired all the offensive coaches who liked to run that scheme under Kubiak, and hired McCoy who doesn't. Paxton Lynch and Siemian have both let slip in interviews that they were told the offense would try and throw downfield more, and Emannuel Sanders and D.T. are happy that they've "got my play back" - the bubble screen. D.T. loves that play and has taken it for more than 1 TD. If they use more shotgun it could help Paxton who is most comfortable in that system.

Trevor would like to be allowed to do more also. Last year both QBs were basically told "just don't screw things up by turning the ball over." They were not permitted to go out to win the game, just try not to lose it.

This year things should be considerably loosened up on offense. Whether that's a good thing depends on the play of the QBs. I suppose if the starter starts turning the ball over a lot, they could dial it back. But, it looks from the outside that they want to open up the offense more, especially taking more shots downfield with the idea of making the defense play more honest.

I would assume that throwing more from the gun would require some decent pass blocking though. . . .

Good thing they let Okung go then.

[Cugel]

Good thing they let Okung go then.

It is easy to say that in April. In September, when Trevor Siemian is a grass stain, it won't be so funny. :coffee:

[Poet]

It is easy to say that in April. In September, when Trevor Siemian is a grass stain, it won't be so funny. :coffee:

Okung was in the bottom portion of the league. You can find bad players pretty easily, Cugel.

[MOtorboat]

It is easy to say that in April. In September, when Trevor Siemian is a grass stain, it won't be so funny. :coffee:

Did you watch last season? I mean at all?

I'm about as unhappy with Siemian being the quarterback as anyone out there, but to claim losing Okung is the difference between him being on his back and not on his back completely disregards the entire 2016 season.

[DT88TheGreat]

It is easy to say that in April. In September, when Trevor Siemian is a grass stain, it won't be so funny. :coffee:

Are you seriously upset about losing a bum like Okung? It's funny how even on madden 17 Okung is a bum who always gets holding calls on him just like in real life lol. Just about anybody including a rookie can give you Okung type production, if not better. All 3 of the first round grade LT's would out perform Okung. And for 13 million per year like he got from the silly bolts makes me even more gladYou we didn't bring him back for that kind of money and he went to a rival so we get to get some blind side hits on Rivers twice a year.

If Okung had stuck around for one more year for about 4 million then fine, but we still would have needed to draft his replacement and hope that replacement would be ready by mid season. I don't know what you think you see in Okung.

[Poet]

This is where it gets painful -
These fears are not unfounded. Okung hasn’t been a top-tier tackle since his one Pro Bowl season in 2012 with the Seahawks, and he notably allowed the second most QB pressures in the league last season.
http://chargerswire.usatoday.com/2017/03/13/los-angeles-chargers-pro-football-focus-failing-grade-russell-okung-deal/

He was one of the worst LT's in the league in that regard. I think his overall grade put him in the fortieth percentile....

[NightTerror218]

This is where it gets painful -
These fears are not unfounded. Okung hasn’t been a top-tier tackle since his one Pro Bowl season in 2012 with the Seahawks, and he notably allowed the second most QB pressures in the league last season.
http://chargerswire.usatoday.com/2017/03/13/los-angeles-chargers-pro-football-focus-failing-grade-russell-okung-deal/

He was one of the worst LT's in the league in that regard. I think his overall grade put him in the fortieth percentile....

And he was still the best tackle we had......and we still have all those other tackles.

[Freyaka]

OKung was utter garbage...I don't think you can blame the terrible o-line coaching for that, he was crap. Period...

[Mike]

And he was still a better tackle than anyone on the roster. I don't know how anyone can dispute that we have gotten worse at the T position. If Elway didn't have a plan to address the tackle position through FA then it isn't a jump to say he misread Okung's value and made a mistake by not opting to keep him (I think it was $11 mil to keep him vs the $13 or whatever he got in FA).

[Freyaka]

And he was still a better tackle than anyone on the roster. I don't know how anyone can dispute that we have gotten worse at the T position. If Elway didn't have a plan to address the tackle position through FA then it isn't a jump to say he misread Okung's value and made a mistake by not opting to keep him (I think it was $11 mil to keep him vs the $13 or whatever he got in FA).

That's like saying the fastest cripple...He's still a cripple. Our tackles were all horrid last year, but overpaying Okung wasn't the answer to fix the problem. That many more holding penalties at crucial times isn't going to be a benefit to us.

[Cugel]

Did you watch last season? I mean at all?

I'm about as unhappy with Siemian being the quarterback as anyone out there, but to claim losing Okung is the difference between him being on his back and not on his back completely disregards the entire 2016 season.

We're going around and around here. I say - and a lot of experts say the same thing - that Okung wasn't great and he wasn't terrible. He was mediocre. Is Ty Sambrailo mediocre right now? Is Donald Stephenson? How about "Melalik" Watson (Elway couldn't even pronounce his name right). Cause at his press conference Elway stated that they still have faith in Ty Sambrailo. They regarded him highly when he came out 2 years ago, but he's been injured and unable to work on his strength, and his technique was abysmal last year when he did get into a game.

And that my friends is "Plan A". They may draft a T in the first round, but nobody I've heard who ever played the position think that any of the guys in this draft, NONE of whom are very highly rated by any NFL scouts or GMs - or we wouldn't be talking about those guys as possibly being there at #20, can step right in and be good at that job, any more than a QB is likely to step in and excel his rookie year.

Now, can it happen? Sure! Ryan Clady was good his rookie year and by his second year he was a Pro-Bowl LT and he invited comparisons to Joe Thomas - until he got hurt.

But, is there any Ryan Clady in this draft? No. If there was a guy who was regarded as a top 10 player, premier LT like Clady that guy would be drafted in the top 5, about #3 in fact because neither Cleveland nor S.F. need a LT, and the Broncos would no more be in position to draft him than they are Myles Garrett. Either Chicago would take him or some team would trade up to #3.

This is not just a THIN draft class at T, it's a BAD, BAD draft class where experts disagree whether ANY of these guys is worth a first round pick. Maybe yes, maybe no.

And that is not the kind of player to take at #20, a "meh, maybe in a year or two we can develop this guy into a quality starter."

[DT88TheGreat]

And he was still a better tackle than anyone on the roster. I don't know how anyone can dispute that we have gotten worse at the T position. If Elway didn't have a plan to address the tackle position through FA then it isn't a jump to say he misread Okung's value and made a mistake by not opting to keep him (I think it was $11 mil to keep him vs the $13 or whatever he got in FA).

There is no reason at all to had paid Okung the 11 million, let alone 13. The Broncos aren't worst at LT because we don't know how the next one will play, they cannot be much worse than Okung who set the bar very very low. Elway did the right thing letting Okung walk.

[DT88TheGreat]

And he was still the best tackle we had......and we still have all those other tackles.

Saying he's the best we had is not saying much at all other than the Broncos didnt have ANY LT who was worthy of starting last year, including Okung. None of them deserved to be a starter in this league.

[NightTerror218]

We traded okubg for watson. If he can stay healthy its an upgrade.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

We traded okubg for watson. If he can stay healthy its an upgrade.

I forgot about Watson. Do you really think he's better than Okung?

[Canmore]

I forgot about Watson. Do you really think he's better than Okung?

Don't know...Okung was pretty bad.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Don't know...Okung was pretty bad.

He was definitely a big disappointment.

My brother in law is a big Seahawks fan, and half way through the year last year I asked him why he thought Okung had dropped off so much. His response surprised me. He said he thought Okung was the most overrated lineman in the history of the Seahawks franchise.

I guess we know why the Seahawks just let him walk away in spite of the horrid condition of their line.

[MOtorboat]

I forgot about Watson. Do you really think he's better than Okung?

Better? Probably not. But he's not getting overpaid like Okung.

[Poet]

I don't have the heart to tell Cugel that Ziggy Ansah was a development and raw player. Or Jason Pierre-Paul. Or Kyle Long. All three of those guys are or were pro bowl caliber players. All three of them came into the league very raw. This whole notion that you can't take someone who isn't starter material right away is really silly. Most first round WR's are inconsequential as rookies - yet WR's are sought after.

[Cugel]

And he was still the best tackle we had......and we still have all those other tackles.

That is the point!

Look, if Denver had a decent LT, fine. Don't let the door hit you on your way out of town Russell! But, they don't.

And the draft? There's not an answer in the draft. Not for 2017 anyway. Now sure you can get a developmental guy - hopefully in the 2nd or 3rd round. There will be several T's available who will be no worse than Ryan Ramczyk, or Bolles or Robinson. All developmental guys. All guys who have some work to do to be any good at the next level. All guys who have some skills but need some time to develop.

And Denver does not have that time! They need a guy who is starter ready day 1. Period.

And that guy is not going to be a rookie. It takes an exceptional rookie like a Ryan Clady to step in and be any good as a starter. And there just doesn't appear to be that kind of player in this draft.

"First round grade" - maybe, if you are satisfied to get a player who will eventually be a solid starter.

The Broncos already HAVE a guy like that. His name is Ty Sambrailo. None of these guys are better prospects than Ty Sambrailo who was a 2nd round pick. In this draft Sambrailo would be given "a first round grade". He might actually have been the best LT prospect in a very bad draft class.

And did you see Sambrailo last year when he finally was able to play? He was so bad the TV announcers said "you have to get him out of the game." It was like prize-fight announcers who are publicly calling on the ref to stop a fight cause one guy is just unable to defend himself.

So, yes, the Broncos need to take a T. But, God no! NOT in the first round. Unless they trade back, maybe with the Texans to #25. If they do that, then fine, go ahead and reach for a first round T. And they could do that trade with because the Texans desperately want to draft Pat Mahomes. Mahomes won't be there at #25, but he could be there at #20. So, a deal is possible. Maybe even probable. The Texans need that future franchise QB, because Tom Savage is just a maybe OK QB. And Mahomes is their guy - if they can get him.

[Hawgdriver]

Sambrailo was injured. Looks like he's healthy and he's got this year to set things straight about his ability.

[Poet]

All those guys have legitimate first round grades on them. You can't call them developmental guys when they have first round grades when, in tandem, first round LT's tend to start more often than not.

You're taking the analysts that you like and applying it like fact. Categorically.

[Canmore]

Sambrailo was injured. Looks like he's healthy and he's got this year to set things straight about his ability.

If he plays, time will tell. Up to know, he is horrible.

[Cugel]

I don't have the heart to tell Cugel that Ziggy Ansah was a development and raw player. Or Jason Pierre-Paul. Or Kyle Long. All three of those guys are or were pro bowl caliber players. All three of them came into the league very raw. This whole notion that you can't take someone who isn't starter material right away is really silly. Most first round WR's are inconsequential as rookies - yet WR's are sought after.

I do have the heart to tell you that all that crap is totally irrelevant. Two defensive ends and a Guard? So friggin' what? LT is a different animal altogether. It's the 2nd most difficult position to play in the NFL after QB.

It takes an exceptional player to step in year one and be a good LT. And there is not one player in this draft who projects to be that kind of player. And if there was, the Broncos would not be drafting him because he'd be taken in the top 5!

Stink is right. You're just blowing smoke if you think they are just going to throw in the rookie and say "Go get 'em Tiger!" and he'll just step out and be fine day 1. He said that, not me. So did Jeff Saturday. So did Tyler Polumbus. They're right. You're wrong. :coffee:

I don't give a rat's ass what that player is like in year two. How many years does this elite defense have? 1 year? 2 years? You can't throw away the Broncos SB chances in 2017. And they will be throwing away any chance of winning the SB in 2017 if they don't have an acceptable veteran LT able to start and do a good job starting game 1 in 2017.

[Cugel]

Sambrailo was injured. Looks like he's healthy and he's got this year to set things straight about his ability.

I still like Sambrailo. I like it that Elway hasn't given up on him. It would be a great story if he proves that he's figured out his technique issues, gotten over his injury problems, been able to work out in the weight room and gotten much stronger, and got his confidence back.

But, as Stink says, "I just threw in about 6 maybes". Maybe he's a great player now. God, I hope so.

It sure didn't look that way last year, but it's a new year and a new staff. Elway seems to think in his presser that they could throw Ty Sambrailo out there and he'd be fine. OK, let's see it.

I'd rather see Ty Sambrailo than a 1st round LT any day. How are you going to defend this pick if Ty Sambrailo ends up starting anyway? And that is a very real possibility. Even if he turns out ultimately to fail at LT this season, he could easily get the starting job over any rookie LT they can draft this year.

[Poet]

Hold on - you spout off how you can't take developmental guys because they won't do anything. Those guys exist and prove you wrong. You then call it irrelevant.

Whew. That's incredible.

You then say it takes an exceptional LT to be good in one year. This is after you tell us the sky is falling because we didn't sign a guy who was one of the worst players at his position. Whew. That's incredible.

We must not tolerate growing pains/bad play from rookie LT. Instead, we must dedicate a big chunk of our cap to bad veteran LT's who are consistently getting worse.

You then tell us that we need proper play immediately because of our aging defense...when the guy you wanted resigned was bad last year...again...that's somehow okay for Okung.

Someone get this man some style!

[NightTerror218]

I forgot about Watson. Do you really think he's better than Okung?

He played LT and RT for raiders just has issues veing healthy.

[Poet]

Cugel, for what it's worth, I'd have a beer with you.

[Cugel]

Hold on - you spout off how you can't take developmental guys because they won't do anything. Those guys exist and prove you wrong. You then call it irrelevant.

Whew. That's incredible.

You then say it takes an exceptional LT to be good in one year. This is after you tell us the sky is falling because we didn't sign a guy who was one of the worst players at his position. Whew. That's incredible.

We must not tolerate growing pains/bad play from rookie LT. Instead, we must dedicate a big chunk of our cap to bad veteran LT's who are consistently getting worse.

You then tell us that we need proper play immediately because of our aging defense...when the guy you wanted resigned was bad last year...again...that's somehow okay for Okung.

Someone get this man some style!

He's a veteran. A rookie is a rookie. A mediocre veteran is better than almost any rookie - at LT. This year. I'm unhappy with Elway only because he didn't do a trade and get a veteran LT to hold down the position.

Then you can take a T in the 2nd round, develop him for a year and then put him in and hopefully he'll be fine.

A DE is not a LT. It's a much harder position to play, so no, your idiotic example is worthless.

A G is not a LT. G's are playing in a phone booth. The LG has a LT on his outside shoulder and the C on his inside. He doesn't have to worry about getting edge rushed by elite pass rushers. It's a totally different animal. And a DL is simply not comparable at all. What difference does it make if a DE steps in year one and is an impact player? Does that mean that a QB should be able to do that? Or a LT?

[Poet]

So you don't think rookie LT's can be better or on par than what Okung did? Do you know how bad Okung was?

[Cugel]

Cugel, for what it's worth, I'd have a beer with you.

Now you're making me sad. I can't drink much beer these days. It gives me too much gas! :laugh:

No, that is not a good thing to happen in public. Maybe with my closest friends I can get away with it, although they complain. Let me give you some sage advice young man! When you get old, never trust a fart!

[Poet]

Now you're making me sad. I can't drink much beer these days. It gives me too much gas! :laugh:

No, that is not a good thing to happen in public. Maybe with my closest friends I can get away with it, although they complain. Let me give you some sage advice young man! When you get old, never trust a fart!

Whiskey?

[Cugel]

So you don't think rookie LT's can be better or on par than what Okung did? Do you know how bad Okung was?

I'll just let Stink answer that question:



Now if you think you’re going to draft one of these young guys, and you’re going to put him in at the left tackle and that kid is just going to produce, then I think you’re living a bit of a pipe dream. I think that is hard to do. I think that is really hard to come out of college into the NFL and play the toughest position in football next to quarterback . And that’s Left Tackle. It’s just a hard position to play.

And you’re insulated if you play on the inside [at guard] And that is why you see guys you see guys like Jonathan Ogden who is a Hall of Fame Left Tackle. You know where Jonathan Ogden started his career? He was a first round pick out of UCLA at the left tackle position. Where did he start? He started at left guard for a year. Because you’re insulated. You have a tackle on your outside and a center on your inside. You’re playing in a phone booth. And you can learn the game there at the guard position. We have seen this consistently.

Last year, Laremy Tunsil, #13 pick overall to the Miami Dolphins, where did he start? He started at left guard. So you insulate those guys, you teach them how to play the game. You keep a body presence on both sides of them, and you let them learn before you move them out and transition them to left tackle.

Well, the Broncos, take a look at them. They went out and got Ronald Leary to play left guard. It’s going to be really hard to sell anybody that you’re going to be OK there drafting a rookie left tackle and then sending them out saying ‘OK, go get ‘em Tiger!’ It just hasn’t worked.”

[Poet]

Sweet - Stink is trumped by better analysts.

[Simple Jaded]

I still like Sambrailo. I like it that Elway hasn't given up on him. It would be a great story if he proves that he's figured out his technique issues, gotten over his injury problems, been able to work out in the weight room and gotten much stronger, and got his confidence back.

But, as Stink says, "I just threw in about 6 maybes". Maybe he's a great player now. God, I hope so.

It sure didn't look that way last year, but it's a new year and a new staff. Elway seems to think in his presser that they could throw Ty Sambrailo out there and he'd be fine. OK, let's see it.

I'd rather see Ty Sambrailo than a 1st round LT any day. How are you going to defend this pick if Ty Sambrailo ends up starting anyway? And that is a very real possibility. Even if he turns out ultimately to fail at LT this season, he could easily get the starting job over any rookie LT they can draft this year.

Wait? Hold on!

You've been shitting on every OL in this draft but you like Samprolo? Pudgy, lumpy, limp-dicked, soft, T-Rex armed Sampro?

Are you ******* kidding me?

[Simple Jaded]

I'll just let Stink answer that question:

Sampro started at LT as a rookie...he was horrible.

[Valar Morghulis]

Sampro started at LT as a rookie...he was horrible.

Did he only start because of the clady injury?

Maybe if he could have developed inside alongside clady for a year, things could be different

But he didn't, and they're not. And he is toilet

[Canmore]

Did he only start because of the clady injury?

Maybe if he could have developed inside alongside clady for a year, things could be different

But he didn't, and they're not. And he is toilet

So far that is being generous. We will see.

[Freyaka]

Sambrailo was injured. Looks like he's healthy and he's got this year to set things straight about his ability.

Yup, reports out of camp are that he's looking good. He's put on some upper body strength which has always been the knock against him.

[Mike]

Sampro started at LT as a rookie...he was horrible.

He wasn't horrible. He showed promise up til his injury. He did not come back as the same player unfortunately.

[Freyaka]

He wasn't horrible. He showed promise up til his injury. He did not come back as the same player unfortunately.

Well, the entire line declined abysmally under Clancy Barone's inept tutelage so that could very well have something to do with it. The nature of his injury also really kept him from putting any muscle mass on his upper body while he healed.

From all that I've heard out of camp, he was able to add that muscle mass and is starting camp on a better footing this year. He's going to have far better line coaches and we will be running a different blocking scheme this year.

I've got faith he'll be better this season.

[dogfish]

if he can actually lift his stumpy arms over his head, maybe he has a chance. . .

[slim]

Cugel, for what it's worth, I'd have a beer with you.

You don't drink beer!

[Cugel]

Wait? Hold on!

You've been shitting on every OL in this draft but you like Samprolo? Pudgy, lumpy, limp-dicked, soft, T-Rex armed Sampro?

Are you ******* kidding me?

I like him as a person. He came in and started because he was the emergency LT when Ryan Clady was injured. He almost immediately got hurt. They tried to rush him back in, but he couldn't go. Trying to come back too early set him back further. He's never been really healthy the last 2 years. None of that is his fault. He's done everything they asked of him, and didn't complain.

That's a certain amount of courage and dedication. Same reason I like Trevor Siemian. Now, is either Trevor or Sambrailo really good? No. Not now. Maybe Sambrailo can stay healthy, maybe work on his strength and conditioning, and then maybe fix his technique issues and emerge as a decent LT. Maybe not. As Stink says "whole lotta maybes."

I'd say the chances of that are still better than the chances some scrub of a 1st round LT will just waltz in and be a solid first year starter. That ain't happening.

John Elway just indicated that he agrees with this line of reasoning in his presser when he stated that they could start Sambrailo. Do I think that's a great idea? No. But, at least he's a veteran who has spent 2 years in the NFL and understands the system. So, mentally he's better. My ideal would have been to get a T in FA like every single analyst both expected and wanted.

I still think Elway isn't done. Even if they pick a T in the first 2 rounds I don't expect that rookie to start. I believe that Elway will try and do what he did in 2015 when they picked up LG Evan Mathis during training camp. Mathis was a long time veteran who was released by the Eagles because his play declined and he they had better options at LG who didn't cost so much.

That kind of thing happens every year. Some veteran OL gets released nobody expects because the team concludes that they have a younger player who can do as well for less money. The Broncos could wind up finding a guy like that in July for instance. Just like Mathis, the guy would be a one year rental until the rookie is ready to start.

The problem with this theory is that you're not certain some guy who is released will have anything left. It's a risk. Second, other teams might scoop him up off waivers. Third, the team has to have enough room under the cap. But, really these are minor quibbles. As we've seen with Mathis, this can work.

[Cugel]

Sweet - Stink is trumped by better analysts.

Actually, it's not just Stink. It's Jeff Saturday, who was a 4 time all-pro and Tyler Polumbus who played 8 years in the NFL -- all of them at T. No unnamed analysts actually know more about OL play than them. And they all say the same thing. I could post Saturday's detailed expert analysis of exactly why that's true, but it wouldn't convince any of you who are determined to believe the opposite.

It's like trying to argue a child out of believing in the tooth fairy. They're not going to believe you, and they're certainly not going to be grateful!

[Cugel]

You don't drink beer!

Oh, I drink beer all right. I just tend to fart when I do. This tends to make me a bit less popular than might otherwise be the case.

[Poet]

Actually, it's not just Stink. It's Jeff Saturday, who was a 4 time all-pro and Tyler Polumbus who played 8 years in the NFL -- all of them at T. No unnamed analysts actually know more about OL play than them. And they all say the same thing. I could post Saturday's detailed expert analysis of exactly why that's true, but it wouldn't convince any of you who are determined to believe the opposite.

It's like trying to argue a child out of believing in the tooth fairy. They're not going to believe you, and they're certainly not going to be grateful!

Right, three guys who aren't analysts vs guys whose job it is to scout guys. You can see where I find the analysts more insightful and useful?

Most of the analysts who aren't high on the class aren't high on it because it lacks depth. That's the constant comment. The lack of depth doesn't mean that the top end guys are bad.

[DT88TheGreat]

Ne position that's not getting talked about as much as it deserves is tight end. This team desperately needs a tight end and this is a great draft to snag one and then you hope huerrman is ready to take off givng us two threats at tight end.

[underrated29]

Ne position that's not getting talked about as much as it deserves is tight end. This team desperately needs a tight end and this is a great draft to snag one and then you hope huerrman is ready to take off givng us two threats at tight end.



We are going to take 1-2 TE and 1-2 RB and 1 wr and 1 qb. This you can be assured of.

My money says butt and Bucky. I happen to love both as well. Bucky is similar to engram except not as amazing, but close and underrated big time. Butt is under the radar because of his injury. TE is loaded like rb. We are going to have some nice new offensive weapons this year

[Hawgdriver]

We are going to take 1-2 TE and 1-2 RB and 1 wr and 1 qb. This you can be assured of.

My money says butt and Bucky. I happen to love both as well. Bucky is similar to engram except not as amazing, but close and underrated big time. Butt is under the radar because of his injury. TE is loaded like rb. We are going to have some nice new offensive weapons this year

TE is hawt this year. Would love to get at least one genuine legit red zone threat out of this group. I don't really want Njoku at 20, and Howard is gone by then. I hope a baller falls to them in the 2d. Engram, Everett, Njoku, Butt, Shaheen....any of those would just rock. Even Kittle, Bucky, Leggett...this class deserves two picks at the position and the Broncos situation.

[DT88TheGreat]

I like Njoku, he is a fantastic very smooth athlete. Reminds me of a Shannon Sharpe, will be a huge mis match and has break away speed.

[chazoe60]

Right, three guys who aren't analysts vs guys whose job it is to scout guys. You can see where I find the analysts more insightful and useful?

Most of the analysts who aren't high on the class aren't high on it because it lacks depth. That's the constant comment. The lack of depth doesn't mean that the top end guys are bad.

Kinger, you know I love you but I disagree with you on this. I can't remember a year when an OT wasn't drafted in the top 10, hell the top 5 really. This year there probably won't be one taken in the top 15. That does not speak to a lack of depth but good top end talent, if these top end guys were really good they'd be snatched up really quickly because of the lack of depth.

Unfortunately for us this is a very bad year to be in need of a T.

[DT88TheGreat]

On the other side of the coin it's the perfect year to need a LT, if there were 2 guys that were super elite projected top 10 picks theThe Broncos wouldn't have a chance to land one. But since the first wave will be going in the 15-30 range the Broncos can actually get one if they chose to go that route.

[Freyaka]

Kinger, you know I love you but I disagree with you on this. I can't remember a year when an OT wasn't drafted in the top 10, hell the top 5 really. This year there probably won't be one taken in the top 15. That does not speak to a lack of depth but good top end talent, if these top end guys were really good they'd be snatched up really quickly because of the lack of depth.

Unfortunately for us this is a very bad year to be in need of a T.

I gotta agree with you on this. There are just as many o-line hungry teams as us out there. None of them are likely to draft these guys. I can't think of the last time an o-linemen wasn't taken in the first 5 picks.

This draft is toilet water for linemen.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Daniel Jeremiah has 2 tackles rated between 20-30 in his board of top 50 players. Drafting one of those two guys in our spot is something I would be fine with

[Hawgdriver]

Daniel Jeremiah has 2 tackles rated between 20-30 in his board of top 50 players. Drafting one of those two guys in our spot is something I would be fine with

I'd be fine with any of the 4 OTs, but I'm a bit scared of the one-year producers (Ramczyk and Bolles). If we do go OL, I really hope it's Lamp or Cam. At least with those guys you know you got a pro-bowl type guard at worst.

[DT88TheGreat]

I'd be fine with any of the 4 OTs, but I'm a bit scared of the one-year producers (Ramczyk and Bolles). If we do go OL, I really hope it's Lamp or Cam. At least with those guys you know you got a pro-bowl type guard at worst.

Yeah the one year of play scares me a bit. If we go OL then it pretty much has too be Cam Robinson. The guy is battle tested and the best player in the draft got owned by cam 99% of that game. I just love how he's able to hit defenders with his two hand punch and send them flying into the dirt. If you are ever beat and your last resort is a push strike that send the guy into the dirt is pretty impressive. That type of strength can't be taught, what you can teach is perfecting his technique which I dont think is bad or else a speed rusher like Myles would have abused him.

[CoachChaz]

Yeah the one year of play scares me a bit. If we go OL then it pretty much has too be Cam Robinson. The guy is battle tested and the best player in the draft got owned by cam 99% of that game. I just love how he's able to hit defenders with his two hand punch and send them flying into the dirt. If you are ever beat and your last resort is a push strike that send the guy into the dirt is pretty impressive. That type of strength can't be taught, what you can teach is perfecting his technique which I dont think is bad or else a speed rusher like Myles would have abused him.

Except Garrett was fighting an ankle injury all season. Missed 3 games because of it and probably should have sat a few more. Still had 7 tackles (3.5 TFL) against Robinson.

But there is something to be said about facing guys like Garrett and Barnett...and even Allen in practice. Battle tested is a good description, I can see him being a decent LT but probably an All-Pro at OG.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'd be fine with any of the 4 OTs, but I'm a bit scared of the one-year producers (Ramczyk and Bolles). If we do go OL, I really hope it's Lamp or Cam. At least with those guys you know you got a pro-bowl type guard at worst.

I care more about measureables and technique than I do how many years they started. I'm hoping it's Bolles, Lamp or Ramczyk

[slim]

I care more about measureables and technique than I do how many years they started. I'm hoping it's Bolles, Lamp or Ramczyk

I think measureables are one of the least important factors in the equation.

What is it about them that you value?

[CoachChaz]

I think measureables are one of the least important factors in the equation.

What is it about them that you value?

I'm guessing a good random example would be a guy like Lamp. Played LT very well in college, but due to short arms and stature...he'll be a guard at the next level. Measurables arent the only factor, but they are a factor.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think measureables are one of the least important factors in the equation.

What is it about them that you value?
Length, strength, hip bend, footwork?

[DT88TheGreat]

Except Garrett was fighting an ankle injury all season. Missed 3 games because of it and probably should have sat a few more. Still had 7 tackles (3.5 TFL) against Robinson.

But there is something to be said about facing guys like Garrett and Barnett...and even Allen in practice. Battle tested is a good description, I can see him being a decent LT but probably an All-Pro at OG.

Yeah I really don't care what he was fighting all year. He played, he was very effective last year as well. Im sure Robinson as well as many other player's had little nicks going on as well. His ankle didn't stop him from having a great year did it? So it shouldn't be used as an excuse for why he got completely shut down vs Robinson. Besides the 2-3 plays he made during that game he looked pretty explosive. Just couldn't keep it up because big cam put them laws on him. Lol

[Hawgdriver]

I'm guessing a good random example would be a guy like Lamp. Played LT very well in college, but due to short arms and stature...he'll be a guard at the next level. Measurables arent the only factor, but they are a factor.

Yeah man, but it's only a 3/4" between him and 33". Make him prove he can't bookend before you throw him in the middle. It's dumb as dirt to silo a dude over such a small difference. Then you pass on guys like Russ Wilson.

[slim]

How short are is arms? I mean, can he touch his toes?

[Hawgdriver]

On the short side

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/60500/Wrestler-with-Short-Arms--60727.jpg

[NightTerror218]

Yeah man, but it's only a 3/4" between him and 33". Make him prove he can't bookend before you throw him in the middle. It's dumb as dirt to silo a dude over such a small difference. Then you pass on guys like Russ Wilson.

And 1/4" eiyh joe thomas who also has flawless technique...lamp is juat moay technique sound OL in draft.

[spikerman]

And 1/4" eiyh joe thomas who also has flawless technique...lamp is juat moay technique sound OL in draft.

Dude, if you're having a stroke quit typing and call 911.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Dude, if you're having a stroke quit typing and call 911.


😂😂😂😂

[NightTerror218]

Dude, if you're having a stroke quit typing and call 911.
Der der der......
:shocked::lol:

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by CoachChaz View Post
Except Garrett was fighting an ankle injury all season. Missed 3 games because of it and probably should have sat a few more. Still had 7 tackles (3.5 TFL) against Robinson.

But there is something to be said about facing guys like Garrett and Barnett...and even Allen in practice. Battle tested is a good description, I can see him being a decent LT but probably an All-Pro at OG.

That's exactly what I read as well. Guy was a 1 year starter. In a normal draft class he'd be pushed back to the 2nd round by better 1st round T's. In this craptastic T class he gets "a first round grade."

And apparently, if they draft Bolles, all Elway's talk about getting the "best player available" is just B.S. cause that guy is the ultimate reaching for a need pick.

He's 25, so maybe they think he's more mature. And possibly they intend to throw him in there day 1 at LT, but it's much more likely from everything we've heard recently from Elway and Vance that they intend to put Ty Sambrailo out there. Sambrailo supposedly has been hitting the weight room for the first time since he got his shoulder surgery and is now healthy, and he looks like a totally different player physically. Elway said they could put him out there at LT and it's looking like he was being honest.

That would be my reading of the tea leaves: The Broncos draft Bolles at LT at #18 (moving up to forestall two other teams that supposedly want that JAG), and then trot Sambrailo out there until Bolles is ready (hopefully sometime during his rookie season).

If this is true, then the happiest guy outside the McCaffrey household that Christian went at #8 is Elway, since if McCaffrey was on the board at #18 and the Broncos passed on him, the fan reaction would be . . . . severe.

[dogfish]

How short are is arms? I mean, can he touch his toes?

can you touch your toes?

[Poet]

Four LT's - three had first round grades. Two of them were drafted in the first. I don't think we took the right one. I was happy to take a LT. We upgraded over Okung, saved cap space, and there's legitimate first round talent to be had in the second round. Be happy, bitches.