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Hawgdriver
04-11-2017, 07:00 PM
This is a waste of a thread, but then it's the offseason.

I've got 80-20 it's Trevor starting game 1 of 2017. Here's why I think that. If Paxton was serious about starting 2017, he would have done some offseason work with the receivers. I don't care if the GT and SMU cats don't show, he'd do something. He'd fight for the job. I just don't see that spark, that fire. I see it with Trevor because even though he might be the Ryan Lochte to Paxton's Phelps, he's grinding and using the disses as fuel to improve.

I guess we'll see.

Yeah, so what %'s you got for Trev and Pax? As starter?

spikerman
04-11-2017, 07:43 PM
This is a waste of a thread, but then it's the offseason.

I've got 80-20 it's Trevor starting game 1 of 2017. Here's why I think that. If Paxton was serious about starting 2017, he would have done some offseason work with the receivers. I don't care if the GT and SMU cats don't show, he'd do something. He'd fight for the job. I just don't see that spark, that fire. I see it with Trevor because even though he might be the Ryan Lochte to Paxton's Phelps, he's grinding and using the disses as fuel to improve.

I guess we'll see.

Yeah, so what %'s you got for Trev and Pax? As starter?
I'm not disagreeing, but let me ask you: if this turns out to be true, is it time to shop Lynch? I don't mean TS starting, I mean the reason why Lynch isn't starting.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-11-2017, 08:06 PM
I'm not disagreeing, but let me ask you: if this turns out to be true, is it time to shop Lynch? I don't mean TS starting, I mean the reason why Lynch isn't starting.

If Lynch can't sniff the field I don't think he'll bring much on the trade market....two chickens and a bag of rice?

spikerman
04-11-2017, 08:09 PM
If Lynch can't sniff the field I don't think he'll bring much on the trade market....two chickens and a bag of rice?
I don't want us to get ahead of ourselves. If, and I mean if the coaches decide that he's not putting in the work and decide to move on there are plenty of other coaches who will see a first round pick with a rocket arm and think they can change him. Getting compensation won't be hard.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-11-2017, 08:12 PM
I don't want us to get ahead of ourselves. If, and I mean if the coaches decide that he's not putting in the work and decide to move on there are plenty of other coaches who will see a first round pick with a rocket arm and think they can change him. Getting compensation won't be hard.

If he can't compete with a 7th round I beg to differ, unless that 7th round pick turns into an all pro

spikerman
04-11-2017, 08:14 PM
If he can't compete with a 7th round I beg to differ, unless that 7th round pick turns into an all pro

That's ok. We can disagree. I don't think he's going anywhere anyway.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-11-2017, 08:15 PM
That's ok. We can disagree. I don't think he's going anywhere anyway.

Probably right. We'll know more when see him this preseason. It will be easy to see if he's progressed.

Siemian looked like a totally different player last preseason than he did the previous preseason

Jaded
04-11-2017, 10:18 PM
Poor Paxton, washed up after 11 months.

BroncoWave
04-11-2017, 10:28 PM
Barring injury, I would be completely shocked if Trevor isn't starting week 1. Every sign in the world is pointing that way.

King87
04-11-2017, 10:48 PM
It's a 60 40 in favor of TS. He has to compete and Lynch should improve. To be honest, if PL is even close to TS in the competition they're going with PL.

NightTerror218
04-11-2017, 10:55 PM
As soon as season ended lynch hired a QB guru voach to help his mechanics and has been working with him the entire off season in florida.

King87
04-11-2017, 10:55 PM
As soon as season ended lynch hired a QB guru voach to help his mechanics and has been working with him the entire off season in florida.

I'm dreaming of the talented stud panning out. Lord knows we need it

Jsteve01
04-11-2017, 11:15 PM
As soon as season ended lynch hired a QB guru voach to help his mechanics and has been working with him the entire off season in florida.

It's the same guy he worked with prior to the draft.

MOtorboat
04-11-2017, 11:51 PM
Barring injury, I would be completely shocked if Trevor isn't starting week 1. Every sign in the world is pointing that way.

Can't disagree with this.

Dapper Dan
04-11-2017, 11:56 PM
I say we trade for Eli Manning and win the Super Bowl.

BroncoWave
04-12-2017, 12:13 AM
Can't disagree with this.

I would love for Paxton to just blow everyone away this offseason and prove me wrong, but I'm not seeing it right now. It just still doesn't sound like anything thinks he will be ready soon.

Valar Morghulis
04-12-2017, 01:50 AM
100% trev.

MO and VK are going to taste the rainbow.

Trev and Latimer will be the number one qb and wr do this season.

Ok, not the Latimer part.

MOtorboat
04-12-2017, 02:01 AM
100% trev.

MO and VK are going to taste the rainbow.

Trev and Latimer will be the number one qb and wr do this season.

Ok, not the Latimer part.

I don't understand what's happening here. Are you suggesting Trevor Siemian is the first openly gay quarterback?

Valar Morghulis
04-12-2017, 04:02 AM
I don't understand what's happening here. Are you suggesting Trevor Siemian is the first openly gay quarterback?

Sounds like you sure hope so

MOtorboat
04-12-2017, 04:06 AM
Sounds like you sure hope so

I think you're projecting.

Valar Morghulis
04-12-2017, 04:21 AM
I think you're projecting.

That's exactly what someone in denial would say.

Embrace the siemian, and all those uncomfortable repressed feelings he causes in you!

slim
04-12-2017, 08:27 AM
I would love for Paxton to just blow everyone away this offseason and prove me wrong, but I'm not seeing it right now. It just still doesn't sound like anything thinks he will be ready soon.

He didn't blow you away in the offseason?

Lol

slim
04-12-2017, 08:42 AM
If only he had led the team to a SB victory during the offseason...that would have blown me away.

BroncoWave
04-12-2017, 11:00 AM
Slim, ****. I wasn't being literal there. My point was that I'd like to see reports of him blowing the coaches away, but so far, the only reports that come to mind this offseason were that Elway doesn't like his work ethic and the new coaches really like Siemian. Not exactly ringing endorsements of PL.

Hawgdriver
04-12-2017, 11:18 AM
Hawgtake #1738:

Paxton hasn't really grown up. He's a hell of a competitor but just doesn't project to coaches as mature enough that he can be trusted with the keys to the Lambo. Paxton has cleaned up mechanics under center and other details of playing the position, but carries the stigma of being a mentally soft, unhungry rookie into this year. Not holding an offseason clinic or practice with WRs (like Peyton used to do every offseason by this point) was a missed opportunity for Paxton to gain advantage going into the 2017 season. The offseason chatter from VJ is designed simply to let Paxton know that he needs to ball out if he's serious about the getting the job.

I think the two QBs are very close in ability--Siemian with an edge in intelligence, Paxton with an edge in retardedly strong arm-ness--but this year the real test is how well does each deal with adversity? I give Siemian the edge because everything so far for him has been one big deal-with-adversity fest, but Paxton could be accused of coasting on his talent.

NightTerror218
04-12-2017, 12:42 PM
I dont know of many QB who hold passing clinics with WR. Peyton did at Duke and the Sanchez did. Look where it got the sanchez.

Lynch will be far more at home in new offense than with kubiaks offense. I think the addition of musgrave speaks volumes to these two young QBs. They want to develop them. Lynch just has an insanely higher ceiling then siemian.

Buff
04-12-2017, 01:43 PM
Hawgtake #1738:

Paxton hasn't really grown up. He's a hell of a competitor but just doesn't project to coaches as mature enough that he can be trusted with the keys to the Lambo. Paxton has cleaned up mechanics under center and other details of playing the position, but carries the stigma of being a mentally soft, unhungry rookie into this year. Not holding an offseason clinic or practice with WRs (like Peyton used to do every offseason by this point) was a missed opportunity for Paxton to gain advantage going into the 2017 season. The offseason chatter from VJ is designed simply to let Paxton know that he needs to ball out if he's serious about the getting the job.

I think the two QBs are very close in ability--Siemian with an edge in intelligence, Paxton with an edge in retardedly strong arm-ness--but this year the real test is how well does each deal with adversity? I give Siemian the edge because everything so far for him has been one big deal-with-adversity fest, but Paxton could be accused of coasting on his talent.

The part I find most troubling is that the guys with the intangibles seem to enter the league with them - nobody needed to teach Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson how to be a pro or a leader. They came in with a chip on their shoulder and a desire to outwork and lead by example.

Couple that with the fact that Paxton didn't seem to be very accurate - I'm bearish.

That said - he seemed to be really quick on his feet relative to Brock. Seems like he's got the tools if someone could harness them effectively.

slim
04-12-2017, 01:46 PM
Slim, ****. I wasn't being literal there. My point was that I'd like to see reports of him blowing the coaches away, but so far, the only reports that come to mind this offseason were that Elway doesn't like his work ethic and the new coaches really like Siemian. Not exactly ringing endorsements of PL.

They just started this week. Any report you read prior to that is speculation, at best.

You are smarter than this.

King87
04-12-2017, 02:00 PM
The part I find most troubling is that the guys with the intangibles seem to enter the league with them - nobody needed to teach Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson how to be a pro or a leader. They came in with a chip on their shoulder and a desire to outwork and lead by example.

Couple that with the fact that Paxton didn't seem to be very accurate - I'm bearish.

That said - he seemed to be really quick on his feet relative to Brock. Seems like he's got the tools if someone could harness them effectively.

Eh - everyone said Eli Manning wasn't a leader and then he won two SB's. Flacco wasn't a leader until he won a SB. IIRC, no one was calling Brady a leader until his second SB. I think leadership is a random intangible quality that we like to think we can see. Sometimes it is apparent, and sometimes it's not. I'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying because to an extent I do agree with you. We'll just see how it pans out.

PL wasn't very accurate, but he was on par with the around the same percentage as TS. It's more 'encouraging' to see that number from PL than it is from TS.

Freyaka
04-12-2017, 02:57 PM
I'm not disagreeing, but let me ask you: if this turns out to be true, is it time to shop Lynch? I don't mean TS starting, I mean the reason why Lynch isn't starting.

I mean, why would it be? He's got no real value if we're so eager to throw him away. Sit on him as a backup, hope he develops and then let him build up his value.

Our QB's are dirt cheap. It would be stupid to shop either of them, better to have the depth.

Freyaka
04-12-2017, 02:59 PM
It's a 60 40 in favor of TS. He has to compete and Lynch should improve. To be honest, if PL is even close to TS in the competition they're going with PL.

I'm actually kind of shocked you put the odds that high in favor of TS.

slim
04-12-2017, 03:02 PM
99 - 1 in favor of Lynch.

Hawgdriver
04-12-2017, 03:26 PM
99 - 1 in favor of Lynch.

That's what I've been saying!

DT88TheGreat
04-12-2017, 03:55 PM
Slim, ****. I wasn't being literal there. My point was that I'd like to see reports of him blowing the coaches away, but so far, the only reports that come to mind this offseason were that Elway doesn't like his work ethic and the new coaches really like Siemian. Not exactly ringing endorsements of PL.

Didn't the players just show up for workouts a day ago? I don't think they are allowed to discuss football with any of the coaches until a day ago. The only thing I've heard John say was Paxton has been down Florida working on his craft with a quarterback coach. And that he is riding with his two young quarterbacks. I'm not sure what kind of endorsements you are looking for in February and March when they are not allowed to interact with the player's.

underrated29
04-12-2017, 03:57 PM
The part I find most troubling is that the guys with the intangibles seem to enter the league with them - nobody needed to teach Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson how to be a pro or a leader. They came in with a chip on their shoulder and a desire to outwork and lead by example.

Couple that with the fact that Paxton didn't seem to be very accurate - I'm bearish.

That said - he seemed to be really quick on his feet relative to Brock. Seems like he's got the tools if someone could harness them effectively.



Dak is not that good. See what he looks like this next year with a tougher schedule and some game tape. IIRC his numbers are just barely better than Siemians and he had Zeke and the OL and easy schedule holding his hand along the way. Dak needs more time.

Buff
04-12-2017, 04:07 PM
Dak is not that good. See what he looks like this next year with a tougher schedule and some game tape. IIRC his numbers are just barely better than Siemians and he had Zeke and the OL and easy schedule holding his hand along the way. Dak needs more time.

Oh hey buddy. How did the sex change go? Or was it human trafficking in China? I can't keep your schedule straight.

Valar Morghulis
04-12-2017, 04:12 PM
Dak is not that good. See what he looks like this next year with a tougher schedule and some game tape. IIRC his numbers are just barely better than Siemians and he had Zeke and the OL and easy schedule holding his hand along the way. Dak needs more time.


Hey ur, **** off.

DT88TheGreat
04-12-2017, 04:24 PM
I would also tread lightly on report's that elway doesn't like this and that about Paxton for the simple fact it would make John himself look bad because he is the one who traded up to draft Paxton, and drafted Brock who flamed out. I'd imagine John wants to give the young kid the benefit of doubt and a chance to actually develop. Brock had plenty of time to develop and flamed out, Paxton deserves more than one rookie season to develop his craft and I believe John knows this. So any report's that came out in February and March with John bashing a guy HE hand picked and traded up for would be click bait, useless off season report's when there is absolutely nothing to talk about so you have to create anything you can.

DT88TheGreat
04-12-2017, 04:28 PM
Dak is not that good. See what he looks like this next year with a tougher schedule and some game tape. IIRC his numbers are just barely better than Siemians and he had Zeke and the OL and easy schedule holding his hand along the way. Dak needs more time.

Dak landed in the perfect situation and it helped him alot, but he does have a good amount of talent himself. His time will come when he will have to carry the entire team on his arm and brain and we will truly see if he's the one.... Or the one who landed in the most perfect situation ever. That green bay play-off game sure helped him alot though, he didn't look like a rookie.

BroncoWave
04-12-2017, 04:41 PM
Dak is not that good. See what he looks like this next year with a tougher schedule and some game tape. IIRC his numbers are just barely better than Siemians and he had Zeke and the OL and easy schedule holding his hand along the way. Dak needs more time.

LOL, just accept your L from being wrong about him and move on.

King87
04-12-2017, 08:32 PM
LOL, just accept your L from being wrong about him and move on.

http://www.nfl.com/player/dakprescott/2555260/careerstats

This isn't even to bash TS - but Dak had the best rookie QB season ever.

sneakers
04-13-2017, 06:12 AM
Who really knows with the new coaching staff

underrated29
04-13-2017, 11:57 AM
Oh hey buddy. How did the sex change go? Or was it human trafficking in China? I can't keep your schedule straight.

Actually just got back from China a few weeks ago. MOs sex change is still a work in progress, I believe. I have not spoken with him for a while but I remember he was already half way there with his man titts.



Hey ur, **** off.

I will not high 5 this and those that did better watch out. If I find out that you have two working kidneys....... Dave, I know you dont. All that semen has cemented in your kidneys.




LOL, just accept your L from being wrong about him and move on.

You accept bibbs. Kapri Bibbs!
(im not sure how I feel about him in the new system. Will have to see in TC)

NightTerror218
04-13-2017, 03:27 PM
McCoy offense will suit lynch. More shots deep and some spread. Siemian will need to check down less and let it rip more. Be less alex smith and more elway.

HORSEPOWER 56
04-13-2017, 04:47 PM
McCoy offense will suit lynch. More shots deep and some spread. Siemian will need to check down less and let it rip more. Be less alex smith and more elway.

Don't forget the bubble screens on 3rd and 10!

:behindsofa:

OrangeHoof
04-13-2017, 04:52 PM
I predict an 80-20% chance whoever the quarterback is will get a face full of turf if the Broncos can't find a friggin' left taco.

Jsteve01
04-13-2017, 11:50 PM
Slim, ****. I wasn't being literal there. My point was that I'd like to see reports of him blowing the coaches away, but so far, the only reports that come to mind this offseason were that Elway doesn't like his work ethic and the new coaches really like Siemian. Not exactly ringing endorsements of PL.

I just get such a kick out of all this speculation about this guy works hard and this guy doesn't. Coaches whove actually never even seen the guy in person don't like his work ethic even though he's spent the entire offseason honing his craft with a quarterbacks coach.

DT88TheGreat
04-14-2017, 12:06 AM
I just get such a kick out of all this speculation about this guy works hard and this guy doesn't. Coaches whove actually never even seen the guy in person don't like his work ethic even though he's spent the entire offseason honing his craft with a quarterbacks coach.

Right, report's are false and made up but the mission is accomplished because he obviously clicked on whatever article he seen online or on some radio show , and here we are talking about it so whoever misled him accomplished what they set out to do.

Only time will tell what happens qt the QB position but after listening to Lynch speak today he does sound way more confident and sounds like an actually pro. And im sure he likes the fact that it's more than plenty shotgun formations and deep ball strikes in this offense which fits his style of play more than Trevor honestly. Trevor has the check down and underneath game on lock though. Two totally different quarterbacks and that's why its so intriguing to me. I really can't wait until ota's and training camp/pre seasonI to see how it unfolds.

Valar Morghulis
04-14-2017, 04:48 AM
Just sayin



10445

slim
04-14-2017, 08:01 AM
10446

Valar Morghulis
04-14-2017, 08:03 AM
<img src="http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10446"/>

Peas in a pod

Buff
04-14-2017, 10:26 AM
I say we trade for Eli Manning and win the Super Bowl.

This would be great, except he is making Peyton money and we can't afford him.

Jaded
04-14-2017, 10:48 PM
I don't understand why Broncos QB's are so polarizing, it's a good situation they're in, would've been even better with Romo.

They have a 1st round pick with a ton of talent and a 7th round pick that's come out of nowhere to show he belongs. The only thing missing is a Trent Dilfer/Matt Hassellbech veteran backup/QB mentor.

Meanwhile the radio waves is overflowing with "Paxton used the word 'stuff' when asked about what he's working on" and "Trevor doesn't get excited enough"

Seriously, only in Denver does this shit matter.

King87
04-14-2017, 11:43 PM
I don't understand why Broncos QB's are so polarizing, it's a good situation they're in, would've been even better with Romo.

They have a 1st round pick with a ton of talent and a 7th round pick that's come out of nowhere to show he belongs. The only thing missing is a Trent Dilfer/Matt Hassellbech veteran backup/QB mentor.

Meanwhile the radio waves is overflowing with "Paxton used the word 'stuff' when asked about what he's working on" and "Trevor doesn't get excited enough"

Seriously, only in Denver does this shit matter.

Eh - in Chicago (I live in Illinois so I'm inundated with it) they blow up a ton of small stuff like that, too. I think it's just QB's.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-14-2017, 11:52 PM
Eh - in Chicago (I live in Illinois so I'm inundated with it) they blow up a ton of small stuff like that, too. I think it's just QB's.
Chicago should be happy if their QB simply avoids crashing the golf cart.

Freyaka
04-15-2017, 09:23 AM
I don't understand why Broncos QB's are so polarizing, it's a good situation they're in, would've been even better with Romo.

They have a 1st round pick with a ton of talent and a 7th round pick that's come out of nowhere to show he belongs. The only thing missing is a Trent Dilfer/Matt Hassellbech veteran backup/QB mentor.

Meanwhile the radio waves is overflowing with "Paxton used the word 'stuff' when asked about what he's working on" and "Trevor doesn't get excited enough"

Seriously, only in Denver does this shit matter.

Remember when Jay Cutler said you know a lot?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9WCPxDYBjg

Cugel
04-21-2017, 10:30 PM
I predict an 80-20% chance whoever the quarterback is will get a face full of turf if the Broncos can't find a friggin' left taco.

That's why I predicted that Elway will draft Usain Bolt in the first round to play QB for the Broncos. They just roll out Ty Sambrailo to act as a speed bump at LT. They have him lay down on every play so the DL will have to jump over him. Then Usain can sprint to his right. Nobody is going to catch him from the backside!

Cugel
04-22-2017, 09:47 AM
This would be great, except he is making Peyton money and we can't afford him.

Peyton money? Muhahahahahahahahaha! "Child please!" -- T.O. Oh, no Eli is making considerably more than Peyton money!


Eli Manning signed a 4 year, $84,000,000 contract with the New York Giants, including a $31,000,000 signing bonus, $65,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $21,000,000 (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/eli-manning-4348/). In 2017, Manning will earn a base salary of $13,000,000 and a workout bonus of $500,000, while carrying a cap hit of $19,700,000 and a dead cap value of $31,600,000.

Peyton Manning in his last year was bargained down to $15M by John Elway from $19M, and he never made anything close to Eli money from the Broncos. He got $19M for winning the SB, but Eli has such incentives too, he just didn't earn them.

Buff
04-22-2017, 10:23 AM
Peyton money? Muhahahahahahahahaha! "Child please!" -- T.O. Oh, no Eli is making considerably more than Peyton money!


Peyton Manning in his last year was bargained down to $15M by John Elway from $19M, and he never made anything close to Eli money from the Broncos. He got $19M for winning the SB, but Eli has such incentives too, he just didn't earn them.

I can't think of a bigger waste of time than rebutting your rebuttal to a throwaway comment I made to a throwaway comment by someone else... But you've annoyed me, so now I will humor you.

PEYTON's CAP HIT WAS $19M in 2015 and ELI's WILL BE $19.7M in 2017 AND YOU JUST DECIDED TO MAKE A POST TELLING ME WHY I'M WRONG TO COMPARE THEIR CAP HITS DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND MATH!!/?!?elenv11n

Cugel
04-22-2017, 10:27 AM
I can't think of a bigger waste of time than rebutting your rebuttal to a throwaway comment I made to a throwaway comment by someone else... But you've annoyed me, so now I will humor you.

PEYTON's CAP HIT WAS $19M in 2015 and ELI's WILL BE $19.7M in 2017 AND YOU JUST DECIDED TO MAKE A POST TELLING ME WHY I'M WRONG TO COMPARE THEIR CAP HITS DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND MATH!!/?!?elenv11n

You're forgetting that he got a GINORMOUS $31 M signing bonus just a couple of years ago. Peyton did not. That's the difference according to "math." And Peyton's base salary was $15M, not $19.7M. You're comparing Peyton's salary including performance bonuses, with Eli's base salary, including PRO-RATED signing bonus. So, he's getting a much higher base. Eli has performance bonuses too, but those are not categorized as "likely to be earned" so they don't officially count against the cap. Any more than Peyton's did.

So, comparing apples to apples Peyton was earning $15M and Eli nearly $20. That's a difference.

Buff
04-22-2017, 10:30 AM
You're forgetting that he got a GINORMOUS $31 M signing bonus just a couple of years ago. Peyton did not. That's the difference according to "math."

The signing bonus has already been paid out. Thus, we wouldn't be responsible for that... Just his remaining annual compensation. Thank you for your pointless correction though.

King87
04-22-2017, 01:33 PM
That was some old school Buff. The man I fell in love with.

Slick
04-22-2017, 06:13 PM
Oh my.

Jaded
04-22-2017, 07:29 PM
If Denver landed Eli the signing bonus stays with Giants, it would always be a factor in their cap but not on any team that takes on that contract. Roster bonuses are different, they go with the player.

Least, that's how I understand it.

I suck at math.

Freyaka
05-08-2017, 11:39 AM
Stokely said something on the fan the other day. People are trashing TS, but if he was a first round QB rather than 7th round, rather than saying he's a journeyman QB who hit his ceiling we'd be talking about how he's going to be a great QB.

Take Wentz as an example, people speak so highly of Carson,
Wentz had 3,782 yards 16 TD 14 INT 14 fumbles
Trevor had 3,401 yards 18 TD 10 INT 4 fumbles. (with 2 less games played)

And before someone pulls the "trevor wasn't a rookie" card... No he wasn't, but it is very rare to see any actual growth and development as a 2nd string QB. You learn far less on the bench than you do in live game experience.

Look at Phillys Rivers as an example. He didn't become the full time starter until his 3rd year. His numbers (aside from 4 more TD's in two more games) were similar to Trevor's. No one wrote Rivers off as a "journeyman who hit his ceiling" because he was a high draft pick and people were more forgiving with him.

If the roles were reversed and Trevor was a 1st round pick and Paxton a 7th, there would be zero discussion of a QB controversy because we'd all be busy hyping up TS just like the Eagles are Wentz this year. I don't say this to say "oh give Trevor time, he's going to be great" but rather, keep an open mind. Most around here were far too hard on him last season and had their expectations set way too high (higher than most would have for a 1st round QB starting for the first time)

All I'm saying, keep an open mind, wait to see what pre-season and camp brings, he may surprise you (maybe not, but if not, hopefully Paxton does because we need one of them ready)

BroncoJoe
05-08-2017, 11:42 AM
Stokely said something on the fan the other day. People are trashing TS, but if he was a first round QB rather than 7th round, rather than saying he's a journeyman QB who hit his ceiling we'd be talking about how he's going to be a great QB.

Take Wentz as an example, people speak so highly of Carson,
Wentz had 3,782 yards 16 TD 14 INT 14 fumbles
Trevor had 3,401 yards 18 TD 10 INT 4 fumbles. (with 2 less games played)

And before someone pulls the "trevor wasn't a rookie" card... No he wasn't, but it is very rare to see any actual growth and development as a 2nd string QB. You learn far less on the bench than you do in live game experience.

Look at Phillys Rivers as an example. He didn't become the full time starter until his 3rd year. His numbers (aside from 4 more TD's in two more games) were similar to Trevor's. No one wrote Rivers off as a "journeyman who hit his ceiling" because he was a high draft pick and people were more forgiving with him.

If the roles were reversed and Trevor was a 1st round pick and Paxton a 7th, there would be zero discussion of a QB controversy because we'd all be busy hyping up TS just like the Eagles are Wentz this year. I don't say this to say "oh give Trevor time, he's going to be great" but rather, keep an open mind. Most around here were far too hard on him last season and had their expectations set way too high (higher than most would have for a 1st round QB starting for the first time)

All I'm saying, keep an open mind, wait to see what pre-season and camp brings, he may surprise you (maybe not, but if not, hopefully Paxton does because we need one of them ready)

He was 3rd string last year, making the case even stronger.

MOtorboat
05-08-2017, 11:47 AM
If he was a first round quarterback, there'd be double the focus and double the criticism.

At least.

Freyaka
05-08-2017, 11:51 AM
He was 3rd string last year, making the case even stronger.

Well ya, I was wrong there, he was third behind Brock and Peyton meaning his time with the first team was next to none...

Freyaka
05-08-2017, 11:56 AM
If he was a first round quarterback, there'd be double the focus and double the criticism.

At least.

If he was a first round QB, his numbers last year would have been praised. I've heard him called everything from a worse Kyle Orton to a glorified 3rd string QB, and yet, people hype up Carson Wentz who had essentially worse numbers overall than TS with 2 more games played...

The bar is set unreasonably high on TS. Let's just put it this way, If Paxton had started last year and put up identical numbers, no one would be as hard on him as some are TS.

BroncoJoe
05-08-2017, 11:56 AM
If he was a first round quarterback, there'd be double the focus and double the criticism.

At least.

IE: Paxton?

Bottom line is for a 7th round pick, and (essentially) a rookie he performed admirably.

BroncoJoe
05-08-2017, 11:57 AM
Well ya, I was wrong there, he was third behind Brock and Peyton meaning his time with the first team was next to none...

Eh - don't sugarcoat it. It was NONE.

MOtorboat
05-08-2017, 12:07 PM
If he was a first round QB, his numbers last year would have been praised. I've heard him called everything from a worse Kyle Orton to a glorified 3rd string QB, and yet, people hype up Carson Wentz who had essentially worse numbers overall than TS with 2 more games played...

The bar is set unreasonably high on TS. Let's just put it this way, If Paxton had started last year and put up identical numbers, no one would be as hard on him as some are TS.

The bar is set at "starting quarterback."

However, I just can't agree. First round draft picks are absolutely roasted and nit-picked and scrutinized to the Nth degree. I'm not even sure how that's a debate. If he were a first round draft pick the scrutiny would be unrelenting, not a few people on a message board who aren't convinced he's the long term solution.

elsid13
05-08-2017, 12:11 PM
McCoy offense will suit lynch. More shots deep and some spread. Siemian will need to check down less and let it rip more. Be less alex smith and more elway.

McCoy's offense is based upon inside crossing plays. That is why they drafted two speed WR. It's about quick release and reads

Traveler
05-08-2017, 12:48 PM
Siemian starts the season, Lynch takes over before mid-season.

Freyaka
05-08-2017, 01:05 PM
Siemian starts the season, Lynch takes over before mid-season.

That was supposed to be the way it worked out last year too. My thought, whoever emerges as the starter stays the starter barring injury or poor production.

I

G_Money
05-08-2017, 03:02 PM
If the Broncos are really lucky they have a Brees/Rivers situation on their hands shortly. If they are only kinda lucky it's an Alex Smith/Kaepernick situation (with a Kap who hopefully improves his reads). In the first scenario, neither choice is especially bad. In the 2nd, either one can hold down the fort for a while (especially with this defense - Kap almost won a title with a defense like that).

I honestly don't know what we have with Lynch or Siemian. I like both guys, but if I was a betting man I would take Lynch based on the arm talent (and Siemian's documented injury history). At some point I feel like Trevor's gonna get hurt again, and Lynch will be better equipped to keep the reins. But I still have Siemian starting the season with the 1s.

Let's see how McCoy's offense affects things, though. Kubes designed his to be run by a quarterback much like himself - and that would be Siemian. McCoy can do more with a big arm, but making quick reads is still important. The shotgun might be the biggest comfort factor for Lynch to be able to unseat Siemian, and that's what I want to see in camp.

Jaded
05-08-2017, 08:31 PM
That was supposed to be the way it worked out last year too. My thought, whoever emerges as the starter stays the starter barring injury or poor production.

I

Maybe Lynch earns starting gig last year if the coaching staff doesn't literally campaign against him?

Cugel
05-08-2017, 09:08 PM
The way I look at it, it's not really a QB competition between Trevor & Paxton at all. There's a third player in the room and that's John Elway who casts a ginormous shadow over all of Dove Valley.

Remember that John Elway made over $100 M selling that Car Dealership franchise and the money from that is still rolling in. He could afford to buy his own island, and all the fish. He doesn't need to get up at 5:00 in the morning when it's still dark and go to work until late in the evening. He does it for only 1 reason and that is to win more championships than Bill Belichick. He's driven to be the best and who is the best right now? Belichick, who's won 5 championships.

So, when Elway talks about "winning from now on" he means Super Bowls. Other teams talk about it, but they're not seriously invested in doing what it takes to get to the top. He is.

Well, how can Elway win multiple championships? We can dismiss 2015 right at the start. Every decade on average a team wins the SB without much offense, relying on defense: '85 Bears w/ Jim McMahon, 2000 Ravens with Trent Dilfer, 2002 Bucs with Brad Johnson, and the 2015 Broncos with a crippled Peyton Manning, who threw for, what, a-buck-20 and no TDs plus 2 turnovers in the SB?

But, it only ever happens about once every ten years and never to the same team twice. That is not the way to win multiple championships.

They only way to get to more than 1 SB is to have a top 10 QB. And that is what Elway is looking for. He can talk all he wants about how they want to "develop Trevor and Paxton" but if he isn't convinced by the end of the season that he has a top 10 QB in the making (at least) on his roster then he will get rid of one of two and go out in the draft in 2018 and draft another QB in the first or 2nd round.

And then whoever is left will start until the new kid is ready - then adios Muchachos.

King87
05-08-2017, 09:10 PM
Those average teams had all-time great defenses so strong that they became all-time great teams. I don't know if I disagree with your conclusion, but I'm just saying.

King87
05-08-2017, 09:10 PM
Maybe Lynch earns starting gig last year if the coaching staff doesn't literally campaign against him?

Do you think that happened?

spikerman
05-08-2017, 09:44 PM
The way I look at it, it's not really a QB competition between Trevor & Paxton at all. There's a third player in the room and that's John Elway who casts a ginormous shadow over all of Dove Valley.

Remember that John Elway made over $100 M selling that Car Dealership franchise and the money from that is still rolling in. He could afford to buy his own island, and all the fish. He doesn't need to get up at 5:00 in the morning when it's still dark and go to work until late in the evening. He does it for only 1 reason and that is to win more championships than Bill Belichick. He's driven to be the best and who is the best right now? Belichick, who's won 5 championships.

So, when Elway talks about "winning from now on" he means Super Bowls. Other teams talk about it, but they're not seriously invested in doing what it takes to get to the top. He is.

Well, how can Elway win multiple championships? We can dismiss 2015 right at the start. Every decade on average a team wins the SB without much offense, relying on defense: '85 Bears w/ Jim McMahon, 2000 Ravens with Trent Dilfer, 2002 Bucs with Brad Johnson, and the 2015 Broncos with a crippled Peyton Manning, who threw for, what, a-buck-20 and no TDs plus 2 turnovers in the SB?

But, it only ever happens about once every ten years and never to the same team twice. That is not the way to win multiple championships.

They only way to get to more than 1 SB is to have a top 10 QB. And that is what Elway is looking for. He can talk all he wants about how they want to "develop Trevor and Paxton" but if he isn't convinced by the end of the season that he has a top 10 QB in the making (at least) on his roster then he will get rid of one of two and go out in the draft in 2018 and draft another QB in the first or 2nd round.

And then whoever is left will start until the new kid is ready - then adios Muchachos.

Elway won a SB with worse stats than all of those guys.

Cugel
05-08-2017, 09:58 PM
Elway won a SB with worse stats than all of those guys.

Do you mean in '98 when he was SB MVP? Elway was Elway. Who gives a crap about his stats?

If you mean to argue that the Broncos can win another SB with great defense and some below average stiff at QB like Trevor was last year, then no freakin' way can that happen. No way. It has literally never happened once in NFL history that a team like that ever repeated. The '86 Bears had a better defense (statistically) than in '85.

But, no joy. The 2003 Bucs didn't even make the playoffs, and neither did the 2016 Broncos.

Cugel
05-08-2017, 10:03 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
Maybe Lynch earns starting gig last year if the coaching staff doesn't literally campaign against him?

Every NFL scout said that Paxton was "very raw" and had played in a spread offense at Memphis. Nobody expected him to be NFL ready. If he was, he would have been a top 10 pick (at least in that draft - he would have been a top overall pick if he'd been in this year's draft or at least top 5).

The fact he didn't start was not a conspiracy by Kubiak & staff. He wasn't ready and everybody admitted it. Elway was unhappy because he wanted to see Paxton in the final game because it was meaningless.

spikerman
05-08-2017, 10:15 PM
Do you mean in '98 when he was SB MVP? Elway was Elway. Who gives a crap about his stats?

If you mean to argue that the Broncos can win another SB with great defense and some below average stiff at QB like Trevor was last year, then no freakin' way can that happen. No way. It has literally never happened once in NFL history that a team like that ever repeated. The '86 Bears had a better defense (statistically) than in '85.

But, no joy. The 2003 Bucs didn't even make the playoffs, and neither did the 2016 Broncos.
Obviously I don't mean the '98 season. In SB 32 Elway's stats were 12/22 123 yards, 0 TD 1 Int.

JPPT1974
05-08-2017, 11:11 PM
Think Siemien will be the starter. As really experience helps. But don't be surprise if Lynch got one year of learning under his belt. And could steal that QB job away.

Freyaka
05-09-2017, 12:20 AM
Do you think that happened?

Jaded said it on the internet, it must be true...

MOtorboat
05-09-2017, 12:35 AM
Jaded said it on the internet, it must be true...

Jaded also hates the shitgun formation and puppies. So there's that.

Jaded
05-09-2017, 03:05 AM
I love puppies, I just can't have them around for their safety.

Btw, Von Miller said after Kubiak's retirement that Kubiak came to him and asked to prop Siemian up in the lockerroom so that his teammates would get behind him. He never mentioned Lynch and we know what the lockerroom did to the OL. From what little I hear Lynch was just there when it came to the coaches.

Jaded
05-09-2017, 03:10 AM
Jaded said it on the internet, it must be true...

........I will allow this.

Carry on.

DT88TheGreat
05-09-2017, 03:35 AM
I love puppies, I just can't have them around for their safety.

Btw, Von Miller said after Kubiak's retirement that Kubiak came to him and asked to prop Siemian up in the lockerroom so that his teammates would get behind him. He never mentioned Lynch and we know what the lockerroom did to the OL. From what little I hear Lynch was just there when it came to the coaches.

Many people got the feeling that kubiak was anti Paxton. You might be on to something.

Northman
05-09-2017, 05:16 AM
Obviously I don't mean the '98 season. In SB 32 Elway's stats were 12/22 123 yards, 0 TD 1 Int.

Guess Cugel didnt research back far enough. lol

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-09-2017, 08:20 AM
I never got the impression the coaches were trying to sabotage Lynch. I just thought they were honest about his development. Sometimes the truth hurts

Cugel
05-09-2017, 10:19 AM
Guess Cugel didnt research back far enough. lol

WTF? DO you think I can remember back to 1998?

Mr. Memory ain't what it used to be! I'm lucky if I remember where I left my car keys and they're in the same place every time!

You can tell when I'm doing original research because I come in with stuff like "it was against the Chargers on October 20th and they threw 2 picks on first down . . . ."

Cugel
05-09-2017, 10:23 AM
I love puppies, I just can't have them around for their safety.

Btw, Von Miller said after Kubiak's retirement that Kubiak came to him and asked to prop Siemian up in the lockerroom so that his teammates would get behind him. He never mentioned Lynch and we know what the lockerroom did to the OL. From what little I hear Lynch was just there when it came to the coaches.

I just lost all kinds of respect for you! I thought you ATE puppies for breakfast.

Oh, is that what you mean by "I love puppies?" You mean barbecued with A-1 sauce? OK then. Carry on!

Jaded
05-09-2017, 09:02 PM
I just lost all kinds of respect for you! I thought you ATE puppies for breakfast.

Oh, is that what you mean by "I love puppies?" You mean barbecued with A-1 sauce? OK then. Carry on!

I eat people for breakfast, lunch and supper time. People suck!

Jaded
05-09-2017, 09:30 PM
I never got the impression the coaches were trying to sabotage Lynch. I just thought they were honest about his development. Sometimes the truth hurts

I never got the impression either, I'm saying they went to lockerroom leaders and campaigned for Siemian and against Lynch. I sincerely doubt it's an uncommon thing, btw, but it makes me wonder why it's even necessary with such a great leader and teammate who is so far ahead of his competition in development.

Cugel
05-11-2017, 09:56 AM
I never got the impression either, I'm saying they went to lockerroom leaders and campaigned for Siemian and against Lynch. I sincerely doubt it's an uncommon thing, btw, but it makes me wonder why it's even necessary with such a great leader and teammate who is so far ahead of his competition in development.

There didn't need to be any "campaigning."

What seems to have happened was simply that Elway and the scouting department drafted Paxton. Kubiak wanted a veteran starter because they were the defending SB champions with a roster full of veterans ready to win now. There was no room for a rookie.

So, what amounts to a compromise plan evolved. Kubiak got his veteran starter for now in Mark Sanchez, and Elway drafted his developmental QB of the future in Paxton. Everybody agreed Paxton was not ready to start in his first season. He was very raw and colleges like Memphis that run the spread offense are not grooming QBs to be NFL starters. The system is light years away from NFL level sophistication.

But, then things began to blow sideways on them. First Sanchez butt-fumbled his way out of town. He was embarrassed every day in practice by the defense. Trevor Siemian who was drafted solely as a training camp arm in the 7th round outplayed him (and Paxton) almost every day.

Kubiak, who was a late round QB who had to struggle for his chances saw much of himself in Trevor. He promoted Trevor to starter.

OK, Trevor was the best QB on the roster last year, but the offense was horrible, they couldn't run the ball, none of the OL they drafted really developed (except Paradis), and the team missed the playoffs - despite having a defense that gave up 1 more point in 2016 than they did in 2015 when they were so historically great they won the SB with no offense at all.

During this, Trevor sucked and was one of the worst starting QBs in football. But, he was gritty and tough and played badly hurt. His teammates love him. The coaches loved him.

John Elway did not love him - hence the disconnect between management and coaching staff.

Elway is looking for a top 10 QB - someone who will play at an EQUAL level with Derek Carr and Phillip Rivers. EQUAL. He knows you need a top 10 QB to win SBs consistently, so, he's determined to get that guy.

Did Trevor at any point during the season look like he could develop into a top 10 QB in the NFL? No. He was Captain Checkdown.

So, Elway became increasingly unhappy that Paxton wasn't being developed, and wasn't getting into games. The final straw came in week 17 when, after Kubiak said all week that Paxton would play a half, he didn't even get into the game. Then we learned that Trevor played that meaningless game with a badly separated left shoulder with two broken bones in the shoulder. They had to strap his arm to his sides. He should have been in the hospital, not the playing field - especially because the game meant nothing. It just cost the Broncos 5 spots in the draft and any chance of drafting Christian McCaffrey.

Elway reacted by firing all the offensive coaches and hiring a bunch of veteran coaches some of whom had been offensive coordinators or head coaches before. They are determined to develop the players on their roster better.

elsid13
05-13-2017, 09:23 AM
Sieman has Kirk Cousins feel to me, it took time for Cousins to develop but he is very good QB right now. I expect to see similar growth out of Sieman. Lynch is total mystery right now.

Krugan
05-13-2017, 10:44 AM
There didn't need to be any "campaigning."

What seems to have happened was simply that Elway and the scouting department drafted Paxton. Kubiak wanted a veteran starter because they were the defending SB champions with a roster full of veterans ready to win now. There was no room for a rookie.

So, what amounts to a compromise plan evolved. Kubiak got his veteran starter for now in Mark Sanchez, and Elway drafted his developmental QB of the future in Paxton. Everybody agreed Paxton was not ready to start in his first season. He was very raw and colleges like Memphis that run the spread offense are not grooming QBs to be NFL starters. The system is light years away from NFL level sophistication.

But, then things began to blow sideways on them. First Sanchez butt-fumbled his way out of town. He was embarrassed every day in practice by the defense. Trevor Siemian who was drafted solely as a training camp arm in the 7th round outplayed him (and Paxton) almost every day.

Kubiak, who was a late round QB who had to struggle for his chances saw much of himself in Trevor. He promoted Trevor to starter.

OK, Trevor was the best QB on the roster last year, but the offense was horrible, they couldn't run the ball, none of the OL they drafted really developed (except Paradis), and the team missed the playoffs - despite having a defense that gave up 1 more point in 2016 than they did in 2015 when they were so historically great they won the SB with no offense at all.

During this, Trevor sucked and was one of the worst starting QBs in football. But, he was gritty and tough and played badly hurt. His teammates love him. The coaches loved him.

John Elway did not love him - hence the disconnect between management and coaching staff.

Elway is looking for a top 10 QB - someone who will play at an EQUAL level with Derek Carr and Phillip Rivers. EQUAL. He knows you need a top 10 QB to win SBs consistently, so, he's determined to get that guy.

Did Trevor at any point during the season look like he could develop into a top 10 QB in the NFL? No. He was Captain Checkdown.

So, Elway became increasingly unhappy that Paxton wasn't being developed, and wasn't getting into games. The final straw came in week 17 when, after Kubiak said all week that Paxton would play a half, he didn't even get into the game. Then we learned that Trevor played that meaningless game with a badly separated left shoulder with two broken bones in the shoulder. They had to strap his arm to his sides. He should have been in the hospital, not the playing field - especially because the game meant nothing. It just cost the Broncos 5 spots in the draft and any chance of drafting Christian McCaffrey.

Elway reacted by firing all the offensive coaches and hiring a bunch of veteran coaches some of whom had been offensive coordinators or head coaches before. They are determined to develop the players on their roster better.

Kinda making some pretty big leaps here. Not a personal attack, just not sure how you can force these dot connections without sitting in those rooms.

Secondly, TS hasnt really been given much of a chance to develop, along with lynch. So much assumption by so many...

Cugel
05-13-2017, 10:58 AM
Kinda making some pretty big leaps here. Not a personal attack, just not sure how you can force these dot connections without sitting in those rooms.

Secondly, TS hasnt really been given much of a chance to develop, along with lynch. So much assumption by so many...

Sigh. I hate having to have this same conversation over and over. Look! I don't give a rat's behind whether anyone believes this or not.

This story is NOT MINE.

I didn't invent any of it.

NONE.

All of it has been obsessed about on 104.3 the Fan and among 9News and other Broncos insiders ever since Kubiak resigned after the season. Many of these sportscasters are former athletes who are friends with players on the team.

They get the inside story. This is the inside story. None of it is "confirmed" in that it will never be admitted by anyone in authority at Dove Valley. So, if you want to join all the other people insisting "those idiots like Tyler Polumbus don't know what they're talking about" go ahead. I'd say he does know after playing 8 years in the NFL and on the Broncos 2015 SB team.

As former teammates, they are close friends with a number of players in the locker room and have their private cell phone numbers.

Believe what you like, but all of you can stop with the idiotic notion that "Cugel is inventing stuff."

Cugel
05-13-2017, 11:07 AM
I would say that the desire of Elway for a top 10 QB is pretty evident. Do you believe he would be satisfied if his QB is the 3rd or 4th best in a Division with Derek Carr and Phillip Rivers?

After just winning a SB with Petyon? He needs to be able to compete in the AFC West where the Broncos finished 3rd and a lot of critics (not me) think the Broncos will finish 3rd in the division once again. Some NFL experts are predicting that the Broncos will finish 7-9 because of the brutal, worst in the NFL, schedule.

I don't believe that, but it won't be easy for either Paxton or Trevor to satisfy Elway. The starter will have to win games against some very good QBs on this schedule. If not, well. . . . there is always the 2018 draft when there will be a lot of high rated QBs.

Krugan
05-13-2017, 11:12 AM
Sigh. I hate having to have this same conversation over and over. Look! I don't give a rat's behind whether anyone believes this or not.

This story is NOT MINE.

I didn't invent any of it.

NONE.

All of it has been obsessed about on 104.3 the Fan and among 9News and other Broncos insiders ever since Kubiak resigned after the season. Many of these sportscasters are former athletes who are friends with players on the team.

They get the inside story. This is the inside story. None of it is "confirmed" in that it will never be admitted by anyone in authority at Dove Valley. So, if you want to join all the other people insisting "those idiots like Tyler Polumbus don't know what they're talking about" go ahead. I'd say he does know after playing 8 years in the NFL and on the Broncos 2015 SB team.

As former teammates, they are close friends with a number of players in the locker room and have their private cell phone numbers.

Believe what you like, but all of you can stop with the idiotic notion that "Cugel is inventing stuff."

Never claimed it was yours in my response.... Although it would have cleared it up with a link to the conversation in whole so we arent just reading words you typed and having to infer if its your spin on it, or the actual conversation.

Either way, im not calling you names or assuming anything, other than those are big steps to be making without ACTUALLY being there for all the conversations, whomever is making those statements.

Joel
05-13-2017, 11:18 AM
I love puppies, I just can't have them around for their safety.

Btw, Von Miller said after Kubiak's retirement that Kubiak came to him and asked to prop Siemian up in the lockerroom so that his teammates would get behind him. He never mentioned Lynch and we know what the lockerroom did to the OL. From what little I hear Lynch was just there when it came to the coaches.


I never got the impression either, I'm saying they went to lockerroom leaders and campaigned for Siemian and against Lynch. I sincerely doubt it's an uncommon thing, btw, but it makes me wonder why it's even necessary with such a great leader and teammate who is so far ahead of his competition in development.
Asking leaders support Siemian=/=dismissing Lynch. But it says something about Lynchs development last year that so many consider those acts equivalent: The job was always Siemians to LOSE, because Lynch couldn't WIN it on his own merits. The sole question is whether and how much that dynamic has changed (or will.)

That's the problem with reducing life to Boolean values: As long as there are only two options, it's needless and foolish for either to take risks pursuing success, because it's enough to await and exploit their lone competitors inevitable failures (which are inevitable in the long run just because no one's perfect.)

Elway appreciates that on some level, because this time last year the debate was "Sanchez or Lynch," but his answer by the middle of camp was "neither." Sloter and Kelly may be long shots, but Elway's once again avoided 2015s "Oz starts by default" scenario. Whoever starts Opening Day will have earned that privilege, and the one thing Siemian undeniably proved last year is that that could be any QB on the roster.

By the bye, this whole "Elway anointed Lynch but Kubes anointed Siemian" thing is tired. Were it true or even plausible it, Elway wouldn't have had to orchestrate some face-saving retirement for Kubiak, then quietly fire all his assistants: He could have simply told Kubiak, "Lynch starts until/unless I say otherwise." Just as the idea Elway drafted his QBotF without consultation with the offenses architect, who's also a fellow former NFL QB and a close friend of decades, is wildly implausible.

Cugel
05-13-2017, 11:29 AM
Never claimed it was yours in my response.... Although it would have cleared it up with a link to the conversation in whole so we arent just reading words you typed and having to infer if its your spin on it, or the actual conversation.

Either way, im not calling you names or assuming anything, other than those are big steps to be making without ACTUALLY being there for all the conversations, whomever is making those statements.

Not you Krugan. I just am getting a lot of flack on these boards because I listen to the radio about the Broncos and they are obsessively prying into every aspect of this story. "What happened between Elway & Kubiak & the coaching staff?" What's the real reason why Kubiak "retired"? It can't be just health reasons because sources close to Kubiak are saying he could come back and coach in the NFL in a year or two. Etc.

I won't bore you all with all the details. You could hear all the same stuff by going to LINK (http://1043thefan.com/category/podcasts/) and looking up some of the old podcasts that talk about all this crap. Been the story for months.

I don't know what to think of all this. I don't believe the official story is ever the entire "real" story in the NFL. There's so much of a cover up to pretty things up and present a united front to the public.

I heard Wade Philips talk about getting fired from the Broncos admit that he was unhappy getting fired, but at the same time he has no hard feelings. Well, which is it? Personally, I still resent getting fired from my job back in 1986. My heart is still black with resentment against my former boss.

Hard to believe Wade is so OK with everything. But, maybe he's really a bigger man. Fire me, and I'd be small and petty and resent it. But, apparently there's all these things they say that are the things they are supposed to say rather than what's really going on.

Cugel
05-13-2017, 11:35 AM
By the bye, this whole "Elway anointed Lynch but Kubes anointed Siemian" thing is tired. Were it true or even plausible it, Elway wouldn't have had to orchestrate some face-saving retirement for Kubiak, then quietly fire all his assistants: He could have simply told Kubiak, "Lynch starts until/unless I say otherwise." Just as the idea Elway drafted his QBotF without consultation with the offenses architect, who's also a fellow former NFL QB and a close friend of decades, is wildly implausible.

It's kind of like the movie Money Ball. The coach decides who starts. The GM decides who is on the team.

Elway would never tell the coach "you're starting Lynch" - that's not his decision. And of course nobody thinks Kubiak had nothing to do with picking Lynch, only that he quickly became disillusioned with how slowly Lynch was picking up the system and wasn't looking like he would be at all ready in 2016 - so he went to Siemian and didn't even play Lynch in the meaningless finale, when Trevor was so badly hurt he had surgery to repair two broken bones in his left shoulder right after the season.

Elway, who wanted to see Lynch being developed better than he was, was clearly unhappy. Almost immediately after the season he started firing all the offensive coaches - beginning with OL Clancey Barone, before they even decided which assistant coaches to interview for the head coaching job.

HORSEPOWER 56
05-13-2017, 12:59 PM
Let's be honest. The catch phrase "best chance to win" is something used by coaches all the time in this league when asked about why they have one QB the nod over another in a QB competition to be the team's starter. Last year, Siemian was the obvious pick based on having a season with the playbook and knowledge of the offense, working in the huddle, and propensity to play it safe with the ball. He was much less of a risk and it made sense to start him early on. Coaches also have their jobs to think of and are always going to play a guy who is less likely to make them look like they made a mistake. Siemian played pretty well in a few games and equally poorly in a few others, commensurate with the level of competition he faced on any given week.

Maybe he'll be even better this year, or maybe he's peaked. Nobody really knows yet. The coaching staff now has a body of work to look at and has a good look at what he does well and what he doesn't. Regardless of whether you like him or not, he must improve this year or he won't be the starter for long. Giving the "best chance to win" label only lasts a season or two before you get replaced. There's a huge difference between that and being the guy the team has faith can deliver a championship and is the unquestioned franchise QB. Maybe Siemian is the future and maybe he's not.

The one thing I'm positive of is that you aren't going to contend for many championships with average to sub-par QB play. I'm hopeful that one guy establishes himself quickly and is the guy the team gets behind early. Not just for the coaches, but for the fans as well. Having a "close race" for starter may seem like a good problem to have, but it's anything but. It leads to calls from the fans for the backup and division in the locker room.

Joel
05-13-2017, 01:29 PM
It's kind of like the movie Money Ball. The coach decides who starts. The GM decides who is on the team.

Elway would never tell the coach "you're starting Lynch" - that's not his decision. And of course nobody thinks Kubiak had nothing to do with picking Lynch, only that he quickly became disillusioned with how slowly Lynch was picking up the system and wasn't looking like he would be at all ready in 2016 - so he went to Siemian and didn't even play Lynch in the meaningless finale, when Trevor was so badly hurt he had surgery to repair two broken bones in his left shoulder right after the season.

Elway, who wanted to see Lynch being developed better than he was, was clearly unhappy. Almost immediately after the season he started firing all the offensive coaches - beginning with OL Clancey Barone, before they even decided which assistant coaches to interview for the head coaching job.
Elway has a penchant for doing what I want long after I wanted it done, first in replacing Fox, Gase and Del Rio with Kubiak, Dennison and Phillips, then with firing Clancy Barone, then with taking the FIRST OT in a draft instead of the DOZENTH. Maybe he's just more patient than I. :tongue:

Natheless, I doubt a FILM about a BASEBALL book reflects NFL or Broncos reality. For one thing, it's clear Elway and Kubiak are kindred spirits who've extensively conferred on football and life itself for half their lives. No such GM nor HC would leave the other completely out of the loop on major team decisions.

If Kubiak and Elways ideas of a "proper" NFL team were so widely divergent Elway never would've brought Kubiak back in the first place, however well they get along personally. Same with Wade, for that matter; awkward as it may (or may not) have made senior staff meetings, Elway played under Kubiak, Phillips and Dennison at various times, and the long familiarity each shared with all the others was a key part of our 2015 championship.

Cugel
05-13-2017, 02:18 PM
Natheless, I doubt a FILM about a BASEBALL book reflects NFL or Broncos reality. For one thing, it's clear Elway and Kubiak are kindred spirits who've extensively conferred on football and life itself for half their lives. No such GM nor HC would leave the other completely out of the loop on major team decisions.

If Kubiak and Elways ideas of a "proper" NFL team were so widely divergent Elway never would've brought Kubiak back in the first place, however well they get along personally. Same with Wade, for that matter; awkward as it may (or may not) have made senior staff meetings, Elway played under Kubiak, Phillips and Dennison at various times, and the long familiarity each shared with all the others was a key part of our 2015 championship.

They're lifetime friends. That hasn't changed. But when good friends work together it doesn't always work out the way they planned. The Broncos won a championship. But, clearly there were problems during the 2016 season and just as clearly Elway didn't agree with the offensive direction of the team.

He proved that by firing almost the entire offensive coaching staff the minute Kubiak left the building. He didn't do that with the defensive coaches, in fact he promoted some of them.

And he didn't wait until he hired Vance Joseph to decide which coaches to keep either, which might indicate that he was leaving it up to Joseph to make that decision. He fired their butts out of there immediately after the season. That is not what you do if you like any of those guys.

One of the biggest reasons Elway wanted Joseph is that Joseph was happy with the decision to hire McCoy and change the offensive system. Supposedly, Joseph proposed the idea during his interview, and Elway was already thinking along those lines.

Kubiak didn't want to do that. He felt that ultimately the production of his assistants was his responsibility and if anybody was fired it should be him, only Elway didn't want to get rid of him, he wanted a change in direction on offense.

Well, how did they resolve that impasse? Kubiak resigned and Elway immediately fired all his offensive coaches. That's how. You can spin that any way you like, but those are the facts.

He wanted to bring in a new OC instead of Mr. Invisible Rick Dennison? They signed Mike McCoy and now the Kubiak offense has been flushed and Trevor just stated publicly they are going to more of a shot-gun pass-first offense. That's more the kind of offense McCoy is happy with.

Would Kubiak have wanted to do that? No.

Cugel
05-13-2017, 02:32 PM
Elway has a penchant for doing what I want long after I wanted it done, first in replacing Fox, Gase and Del Rio with Kubiak, Dennison and Phillips, then with firing Clancy Barone, then with taking the FIRST OT in a draft instead of the DOZENTH. Maybe he's just more patient than I. :tongue:

I wasn't happy with the Bolles pick, but it's clear they had a plan. They could only get an OT in the first round. None of the guys they liked would have been available in the 2nd round and they weren't.

And in the second round they picked up a pass-rushing DE, in the 3rd round a play-making slot-receiver and return specialist, and then in the fifth they get Jake Butts, maybe the 2nd best TE in the draft after OJ Howard. They filled every need but adding an impact player at RB and then in FA they went out and signed Jamaal Charles to fill that need.

We can't predict the Broncos win the division because of the uncertainty at the QB position, but outside QB they don't have any holes at all on this team any more.

Jaded
05-13-2017, 02:45 PM
Campaigning for Siemian says more about Siemian than Lynch, why is it even necessary? It's pretentious as **** too, I'd be embarrassed if I were Siemian.

Joel
05-13-2017, 05:59 PM
Campaigning for Siemian says more about Siemian than Lynch
Absolutely, precisely why equating a pro-Siemian campaign independent of Lynch as some kind of cloak and dagger "attack" on Lynch DOES say a lot of his play. "Why is it even necessary?" indeed: If Lynch had the chops last year, no amount of behind the scenes cheerleading for Siemian could've preserved his starting role.

Asking Von to have Siemians back wasn't about that, it was about reminding an elite D rightly calling out its offensive lines ineptitude that it was no more the QBs fault than the Ds. The sole alternative was to throw an unprepared Lynch out there to suck equally badly (or more) behind a line that remained equally bad.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-13-2017, 06:25 PM
Campaigning for Siemian says more about Siemian than Lynch, why is it even necessary? It's pretentious as **** too, I'd be embarrassed if I were Siemian.

It might have been more about him propping Miller up as a leader.

Joel
05-13-2017, 06:28 PM
They're lifetime friends. That hasn't changed. But when good friends work together it doesn't always work out the way they planned. The Broncos won a championship.
So it worked out PRECISELY as planned.


But, clearly there were problems during the 2016 season and just as clearly Elway didn't agree with the offensive direction of the team.
The second in now way "clearly" follows from the first. It's little more than beat reporters repeating (or inventing) rumors to make themselves appear wise, and their regular readers falling for that schtick. In addition to infotainment, a big part of medias declining respect is that so many reporters no longer know the difference between investigative journalism (i.e. verified concrete facts from reliable sources) and just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.


He proved that by firing almost the entire offensive coaching staff the minute Kubiak left the building. He didn't do that with the defensive coaches, in fact he promoted some of them.
With one very notable exception; guess Elway "didn't approve" with the "direction" of our championship-winning D either. :rolleyes:


And he didn't wait until he hired Vance Joseph to decide which coaches to keep either, which might indicate that he was leaving it up to Joseph to make that decision. He fired their butts out of there immediately after the season. That is not what you do if you like any of those guys.
Here we go with this again: The big glaring flaw there was Clancy Barone, who'd been in Denver since BEFORE ELWAYS RETURN, much less Kubiaks, so if he was anyones "guy" it was Elways, not Kubiaks.


One of the biggest reasons Elway wanted Joseph is that Joseph was happy with the decision to hire McCoy and change the offensive system. Supposedly, Joseph proposed the idea during his interview, and Elway was already thinking along those lines.
That's not an argument for Joseph, it's an argument against McCoy. Particularly since McCoy shares Barones dubious distinction of being brought to Denver by McDumbass and presiding over the underachieving offenses that only won two playoff games in three season even with PFM under center.


Kubiak didn't want to do that. He felt that ultimately the production of his assistants was his responsibility and if anybody was fired it should be him, only Elway didn't want to get rid of him, he wanted a change in direction on offense.

Well, how did they resolve that impasse? Kubiak resigned and Elway immediately fired all his offensive coaches. That's how. You can spin that any way you like, but those are the facts.[quote]
The FACT is that Kubiak collapsed and was hospitalized after games TWICE in just three seasons.

[QUOTE=Cugel;2617590]He wanted to bring in a new OC instead of Mr. Invisible Rick Dennison? They signed Mike McCoy and now the Kubiak offense has been flushed and Trevor just stated publicly they are going to more of a shot-gun pass-first offense. That's more the kind of offense McCoy is happy with.
That's the ONLY kind of offense McCoy's happy with; you'll never see him embracing Elway on the field after a SB win repeating, "there's all kinds of ways to win, baby!" Because that's the mark of GOOD coaches like Kubiak, who can use various schemes to fit their particular personnel rather than attempt the reverse. Or does anyone think STYLE was the all that reduced Manning from 2013s record-shattering passer to 2015s marginal one? Had we tried to run McCoys 2012-2013 offense with a 40-year-old Manning behind THAT line, we'd have been losing games by 20-30 pts; even handing off as much as possible, BOTH our QBs were playing hurt before seasons end. Yet still clinched homefield by winning a see-saw battle in their final regular season game; who was running the other team again...? ;)


Would Kubiak have wanted to do that? No.
Kubiak would've been perfectly happy to do that with the PERSONNEL for it, but didn't have them, and this idea Elway's a genius for hand-picking Lynch, Ray, Roby, Sly and Oz in the first round but waiting til the 3rd round to draft blockers was Kubiaks choice is contradictory on its face. Elway built the team with significant input from Kubiak, and Kubiak built its system with significant input from Elway. I say that not because I have some insider scoop from anonymous sources "confirming" it, but because I have at least some familiarity with human nature and good sense.


I wasn't happy with the Bolles pick, but it's clear they had a plan. They could only get an OT in the first round. None of the guys they liked would have been available in the 2nd round and they weren't.

And in the second round they picked up a pass-rushing DE, in the 3rd round a play-making slot-receiver and return specialist, and then in the fifth they get Jake Butts, maybe the 2nd best TE in the draft after OJ Howard. They filled every need but adding an impact player at RB and then in FA they went out and signed Jamaal Charles to fill that need.

We can't predict the Broncos win the division because of the uncertainty at the QB position, but outside QB they don't have any holes at all on this team any more.
*coILBugh* I wanted to seek a coverage LB to backup Marshall in the 2nd or 3rd, because there's usually still good value there for LBs who aren't the high demand 3-4 OLB pass rushers or 4-3 MLB defensive captains. So maybe Elway will do that NEXT year, as usual. :tongue: Meanwhile, we're still pretty thin there, with nothing but often injured Brandon Marshall and a bunch of safeties impersonating LBs (then people wonder why RBs with 20 lbs. on them drag them 10 yds downfield.)

Anyway, they can and have gotten an OT in any round: They just can't ever get a GOOD one anywhere but the first (or MAYBE early second, but 2011 was the last time we had a pick there.) I'm grateful Elway quit trying to make a drafts 9th or 11th best OT his young QBs starting blindside protector, though I wish he'd come to his senses in a better year for rookie linemen. On the other hand (and as many people love reminding me) most linemen from those "good" drafts are either woefully underperforming, frighteningly injury prone, or both, so perhaps it's just as well.

King87
05-13-2017, 06:32 PM
We must protect the legacy of Kubiak at all costs.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-13-2017, 06:33 PM
Joel, how many wpm do you type?

Joel
05-13-2017, 07:09 PM
We must protect the legacy of Kubiak at all costs.
Better than trashing it all costs.


Joel, how many wpm do you type?
About 70.

King87
05-13-2017, 07:23 PM
No, it's not inherently better than 'trashing it'. Although, if Kubiak helped build the roster, does that mean you're finally going to pin some of the offensive woes onto him?

Joel
05-13-2017, 07:53 PM
No, it's not inherently better than 'trashing it'. Although, if Kubiak helped build the roster, does that mean you're finally going to pin some of the offensive woes onto him?
Only if he has a track record of drafting starting OTs in the 3rd and later rounds. Which he doesn't; certain OTHERS who helped build Denvers roster though.... ;)

Kubiaks greatest flaw was believing his ACTUAL record of turning many mediocre QBs into (temporary) All Pros meant he could fixate on ANY QB and make the guy a winner. Schaub cured him of that foolishness, even if McNair only allowed him a 5th round TJ Yates and UDFA Case Keenum. Any doubt Kubiak had learned his lesson vanished when line-inflicted injuries forced him to play Musical QBs with Manning and Oz, which he did well enough to win a SB his first season with the team.

Dennisons greatest flaw was making the same mistake with offensive linemen that Kubiak made with QBs, for the same reason. But (once more, with feeling) Kubiaks ACTUAL resume makes the likelihood Elway did NOT consult with him on QBs (whom Kubiak has been tutoring since he was a position coach after PLAYING the position) as slim as the likelihood Elway DID consult with him on offensive linemen (whom Kubiak has NEVER directly coached.)

NONE of that makes an HC hired in 2015 responsible for the failings of a OL coach hired in 2009. It's simple integer math, man.

King87
05-13-2017, 08:04 PM
Ah. We're back to this I see. I just remember when you said that Kubiak had no control over anything...but somehow he hired his DC...and the rest of his coaching staff...except one guy. But hey, Saint Kubiak.

MOtorboat
05-13-2017, 08:12 PM
Joel has decided on the outcome he wants and then worked his way back from it. It's quite impressive, but at the same time, it's just a lot of bullshit.

gregbroncs
05-13-2017, 08:15 PM
If he can't compete with a 7th round I beg to differ, unless that 7th round pick turns into an all proJust a question, but what does where a guy is picked have anything to do with where they are right now? So TS was a 7th round pick, he also showed a lot of potential last year behind a shit Oline. I don't care who the starting QB is, as long as it's the best guy for the job. Based on last year I saw more from TS than Lynch. Maybe that changes, but what does that have to do with where they were picked?

DT88TheGreat
05-13-2017, 08:40 PM
Just a question, but what does where a guy is picked have anything to do with where they are right now? So TS was a 7th round pick, he also showed a lot of potential last year behind a shit Oline. I don't care who the starting QB is, as long as it's the best guy for the job. Based on last year I saw more from TS than Lynch. Maybe that changes, but what does that have to do with where they were picked?

Since one played 2 games and the other played 14 I think the world saw more from one than the other. All I seen was poor quarterback play/ poor offense just like the year prior. Nothing that we saw from any quarterback the last two year's is anything to get excited about. Can only hope it changes since the offense as a whole has gotten better on the line and way way faster all across the board. All of these quarterbacks will have no excuses soon.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-13-2017, 08:43 PM
About 70.

I'm guessing you post from your lap top with an extra screen.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-13-2017, 08:46 PM
Just a question, but what does where a guy is picked have anything to do with where they are right now? So TS was a 7th round pick, he also showed a lot of potential last year behind a shit Oline. I don't care who the starting QB is, as long as it's the best guy for the job. Based on last year I saw more from TS than Lynch. Maybe that changes, but what does that have to do with where they were picked?

In actually pretty high on TS. My post more on directed at his competition.

Cugel
05-14-2017, 05:42 PM
Just a question, but what does where a guy is picked have anything to do with where they are right now? So TS was a 7th round pick, he also showed a lot of potential last year behind a shit Oline. I don't care who the starting QB is, as long as it's the best guy for the job. Based on last year I saw more from TS than Lynch. Maybe that changes, but what does that have to do with where they were picked?

Where a QB is picked indicates with brutal clarity what every NFL personnel department thinks of that guy. 7th round guy = training camp arm or at best practice squad long-term developmental guy.

How many 7th round picks can you name who are starting QBs in the NFL? I don't think there is one. And even if one ends up starting for a time that usually only means the team hasn't anyone better, but is looking to upgrade by replacing that guy.

The Broncos are looking to upgrade over the play they received (mostly from Trevor) last year at QB. That's why, despite the fact that Trevor started last year, he's only 50-50 to be the starting QB this year. Paxton has an even chance.

But, neither of them is going to keep their starting job unless they make a huge leap to being actually GOOD - not just better than the other guy. "Can this guy win in the playoffs?" is going to be the question in John Elway's mind.

If not, then he will go back to the draft in 2018 and get a QB in the first round. And they will replace BOTH of these guys.

MOtorboat
05-14-2017, 05:56 PM
Just a question, but what does where a guy is picked have anything to do with where they are right now? So TS was a 7th round pick, he also showed a lot of potential last year behind a shit Oline. I don't care who the starting QB is, as long as it's the best guy for the job. Based on last year I saw more from TS than Lynch. Maybe that changes, but what does that have to do with where they were picked?

Nothing.

But I disagree that Siemian is decidedly better than Lynch.

Hawgdriver
05-14-2017, 08:42 PM
Where a QB is picked indicates with brutal clarity what every NFL personnel department thinks of that guy.

And as we know, those personnel departments have perfect knowledge. Just like wall street and hedge funds. They are all pretty omniscient and get it right every time.

Sometimes something isn't on your radar because the radar-cross-section is too small. Stealth materials.

Cugel
05-15-2017, 12:19 PM
And as we know, those personnel departments have perfect knowledge. Just like wall street and hedge funds. They are all pretty omniscient and get it right every time.

Sometimes something isn't on your radar because the radar-cross-section is too small. Stealth materials.

Does it matter whether personnel directors sometimes fail with their predictions? No.
YOu fail! Go to the back of the class! :coffee:

What matters is the answer to two questions you aren't even bright enough to ask let alone answer.

#1: Is being the better QB between the two good enough for either Trevor or Paxton to keep the starting job?

#2: If not, then what exactly is the standard by which they are being judged?

The answer to both questions is the same: John Elway is applying a completely arbitrary standard of judgement to both QBs: "Does this guy project to being a top 10 QB if we continue to play and develop him?"

So, it really doesn't matter whether Paxton is better than Trevor or Trevor is better than Paxton. What matters is whether EITHER can convince Elway he is developing into a top 10 QB.

Right now the Answer is "uncertain." Both QBs have the "potential" to be top 10 guys - maybe. Probably not in Trevor's case, but neither is really a certainty.

The instant John Elway decides the answer is "No!" for either of them, that guy will instantly become expendable and he will start looking for a replacement.

The minute they conclude that the answer is "yes" for either of them rather than "maybe" that guy becomes the Franchise QB.

Where a player was drafted affects teams' expectations about where they will end up. All players are NOT viewed as equal. Now lots of ex-players resent that bitterly.

You hear Mark Schlereth going on and on ranting about how it doesn't matter where a player was drafted, he has to "earn it." And yet he admits that it matters very MUCH to NFL teams where a guy was drafted, because that draft status colours every expectation about what he will ultimately accomplish.

The entire NFL views Trevor Siemian as a 7th round scrub and Paxton as having "first round potential." That completely arbitrary belief influences how everybody views these prospects. And that views how many chances they will get to succeed.

For instance, if Trevor loses his starting job and ultimately released or traded he'll wind up in some place like the New York Jets where he will be a temporary starter until the team can draft and develop a QB to replace him. He won't get a "fair" chance to compete for a starting job, and even if he gets the job, his team will view him as a temporary fill in until they can get the QB they drafted ready.

If Paxton fails, he will wind up on some other team where they will probably give him a chance to compete for a starting job, because that other team will reason "we had a 1st round grade on this guy when he was drafted. Maybe if he comes here we could develop that talent Denver failed to develop." So, they give him another chance.

Where you were drafted makes all the difference in the world.

Conclusion: Teams judge young and unproven players by "potential" not by what a guy has actually done on the field. It's what they MIGHT do if given the chance. Only if they play the guy with the "low ceiling" does that hinder their chances to "develop" the guy with the higher "ceiling?" What if both projections are nothing more than guesswork?

They still proceed to guess and base their decisions on that guess. The process of guessing is called "the draft." And the "draft grade" professional scouts and GMs around the league have on a player influences his entire career and what chances he is given. NFL = "not fair league."

BroncoJoe
05-15-2017, 01:09 PM
TLDR. As usual.

It's 100% speculation.

Freyaka
05-15-2017, 01:38 PM
TLDR. As usual.

It's 100% speculation.

That's why Cugel and Joel have the least read posts on the board.

If you are going to write a novel, I'm probably going to give up at paragraph 2.

King87
05-15-2017, 01:41 PM
That's why Cugel and Joel have the least read posts on the board.

If you are going to write a novel, I'm probably going to give up at paragraph 2.

You've read some of my novel posts - and I know this as you've responded to parts of them that were in the middle of the...book, haha.

This is why I put up with you. That and the fact that outside of TS we're alike.

Freyaka
05-15-2017, 01:49 PM
You've read some of my novel posts - and I know this as you've responded to parts of them that were in the middle of the...book, haha.

This is why I put up with you. That and the fact that outside of TS we're alike.

The difference is, you know how to grab your readers attention early in the conversation, there is an art to that and not all posters who write novels are accomplished in that art.

You've gotta give me something more than "blah blah blah, I'm smart, blah blah" in the first two paragraphs to hook me into reading paragraph three.

King87
05-15-2017, 01:53 PM
The difference is, you know how to grab your readers attention early in the conversation, there is an art to that and not all posters who write novels are accomplished in that art.

You've gotta give me something more than "blah blah blah, I'm smart, blah blah" in the first two paragraphs to hook me into reading paragraph three.

The trick is that I use the phrase 'I'm VERY smart!' Yeah! extra words with caps! #postingstyle

Hawgdriver
05-15-2017, 06:56 PM
Does it matter whether personnel directors sometimes fail with their predictions? No.

'Does it matter whether personnel directors sometimes fail with their predictions?' Yes. This is my point.

Human talent evaluation and acquisition is an unenlightened process. It's not unified field theory. We are not at 0.0000000000xx accuracy in predictive power.

Talent like Siemian can slip through the cracks.

HORSEPOWER 56
05-15-2017, 09:38 PM
Talent like Siemian can slip through the cracks.

Absolutely! Unfortunately, Siemian has yet to show that he's any more talented than any other journeyman/backup QB.

What he is:
- a good "team guy" who is humble and like-able
- a guy who can have some success when put in the right system with the right players and not asked to do too much
- a guy who usually won't cost you the game with bone-headed mistakes and a gunslinger mentality
- a rhythm and timing QB who isn't going to try to make something out of not thing or thrill you with talent if a play breaks down

What he's not:
- a strong armed QB who can make all the throws
- a QB who can make the defense defend every blade of grass (a deep ball or deep out thrower)
- a guy you can count on to run the 2 minute drill and close wins and lead the offense down the field in clutch/comeback situations
- a guy who is going to make those "wow" throws in the face of adversity or under pressure

Now I could be totally wrong, but Siemian projects as more a Kyle Orton or an Aaron Rodgers type.

underrated29
05-16-2017, 10:59 AM
I dont really care for siemian one way or the other, I like him way more than orton, but my sole purpose of the response is to the statement " he does not have an NFL arm. "


He absolutely does have arm strength to make all NFL throws. I found that a bit odd, aside from that, I have nothing else to say on the matter. His arm is very very strong.

HORSEPOWER 56
05-16-2017, 11:53 AM
I dont really care for siemian one way or the other, I like him way more than orton, but my sole purpose of the response is to the statement " he does not have an NFL arm. "


He absolutely does have arm strength to make all NFL throws. I found that a bit odd, aside from that, I have nothing else to say on the matter. His arm is very very strong.

He has NFL arm strength, but he doesn't have a "big arm". How many times last year when he attempted a deep pass did he underthrow his receivers? About 90%. Even if it was a completion, his receiver had to slow down or turn around and wait on the football. He's also not a guy who can fit the ball into tight windows. He also struggles to hit even shorter passes in stride to give a receiver catch and run ability. Most crossing routes/slants were behind his receivers or hit them in the back hip area forcing them to twist and reach back instead of ahead where they could run through the catch.

His best passes were comeback or curl routes inside of 15 yards where the receiver had little lateral motion and he could throw to where they were, not where they were gonna be. He also tends to throw to open receivers instead of throwing his receivers open. Even his downfield throws outside the numbers would float a little bit and were high causing DT and ES to have to go up for them leaving them open for shots from DBs. This led to more drops than usual from both guys because almost all catches were contested.

King87
05-16-2017, 12:00 PM
He struggles to hit deep outs and he did so in college. That's an indication that while he has an 'NFL arm' it's on the lower end of the spectrum. He can hit deep passes but often times his WR's have to slow down and they're not being hit in stride. That's an indication that while he has an 'NFL arm' it's on the lower end of the spectrum. Physical talent is far from everything, but it's pretty damn important.

underrated29
05-16-2017, 12:07 PM
I remember all of those times but to me that is more his accuracy, timing and touch. When he let it rip, he was able to bomb it down the field or rifle some passes in there. He has the arm to do it, just not the touch or accuracy to bomb it and hit the guy in stride....Id be willing to bet he can throw it as far as rodgers or cutler if he wanted. He just underthrows because he is not that good of a QB yet. The arm though, its there.

King87
05-16-2017, 12:10 PM
I remember all of those times but to me that is more his accuracy, timing and touch. When he let it rip, he was able to bomb it down the field or rifle some passes in there. He has the arm to do it, just not the touch or accuracy to bomb it and hit the guy in stride....Id be willing to bet he can throw it as far as rodgers or cutler if he wanted. He just underthrows because he is not that good of a QB yet. The arm though, its there.

When you can't make the out throws for your adult life it's not just accuracy. Those are throws that NFL QB's have to 'rifle'. In regards to the deep throws, the fact that he has to put everything he has into the deep throws and overthrows someone isn't a great sign. Remember noodle arm Manning (when he was declining)? He overthrew a bunch of people and it felt like he did it all the time. People argued that if he was overthrowing WR's it meant his arm was fine. Not so - it's a sign of an arm at issue.

underrated29
05-16-2017, 01:52 PM
When you can't make the out throws for your adult life it's not just accuracy. Those are throws that NFL QB's have to 'rifle'. In regards to the deep throws, the fact that he has to put everything he has into the deep throws and overthrows someone isn't a great sign. Remember noodle arm Manning (when he was declining)? He overthrew a bunch of people and it felt like he did it all the time. People argued that if he was overthrowing WR's it meant his arm was fine. Not so - it's a sign of an arm at issue.


I do not recall him putting everything into the deep throws though. Do you? I remember him cocking back a few times and tossing it deep but never one of those big wind ups and steps into the throw with momentum and follow through. I feel like both of his feet have been on the ground when he has made them deep.

Maybe I am just forgetting about some throws but the more I think back, he seemed to always have both of his feet on the ground, you could tell he was not powering the ball.

I agree about his out throws, but that is QB play not his arm. If he wanted too I believe his arm could fire that ball on those outs. He takes some off. Thats QBing and mental imo. I am trying to think of anytime I remember him abostleiy firing a ball and I can only think of 1 throw off hand. I do not remember who it was against either. I feel like it was middle of the field about 15-20 yards in double/triple coverage to Sunshine, maybe? That is the only throw, off hand, that I can think of him really letting it fly.


As for peyton, he was overthrowing, he had no time. He had to throw early as he was 1/9th of a second from being hit. And his all the last two years was not that good. All of our Qbs throw harder than peyton did. You and I probably do too.

Jsteve01
05-16-2017, 02:03 PM
and here we go again neglecting to mention that he had an injured shoulder and ankle which are detrimental to velocity and accuracy. That isn't debatable. It is fact. The bullshit about it being a non throwing shoulder is only touted by those who've never actually thrown any type of ball. Is he a franchise qb? Odds are he's not but damnit if we're going to debate his arm and velocity let's at least toss out a few disclaimers.

King87
05-16-2017, 02:13 PM
UR, in gameday threads I used to count how many times he did that.

King87
05-16-2017, 02:15 PM
and here we go again neglecting to mention that he had an injured shoulder and ankle which are detrimental to velocity and accuracy. That isn't debatable. It is fact. The bullshit about it being a non throwing shoulder is only touted by those who've never actually thrown any type of ball. Is he a franchise qb? Odds are he's not but damnit if we're going to debate his arm and velocity let's at least toss out a few disclaimers.

We've talked his injuries to death - but his proponents gloss over the fact that he had those same issues in college, Jsteve.

underrated29
05-16-2017, 02:20 PM
and here we go again neglecting to mention that he had an injured shoulder and ankle which are detrimental to velocity and accuracy. That isn't debatable. It is fact. The bullshit about it being a non throwing shoulder is only touted by those who've never actually thrown any type of ball. Is he a franchise qb? Odds are he's not but damnit if we're going to debate his arm and velocity let's at least toss out a few disclaimers.


Good point. His arm is more than qualified. I am not really sure its up for much debate at all.



UR, in gameday threads I used to count how many times he did that.

ok.
I just watched a clip. Against the bengals he threw a ball from just on our side of the 50 to the endzone to Hemannual. He did step into the throw but he did not power it by any means. That is slightly over 50 yards with (total guessing here) 75% power. Orton would have had to put everything into that throw. Peyton would not have made it there- or atleast it would have taken another 3 seconds.

We will see in camp compared to Pax, and Kelly and Sloter- all who have very very strong arms. I am quite certain that Trevors arm is upper NFL caliber.

Jsteve01
05-16-2017, 02:46 PM
We've talked his injuries to death - but his proponents gloss over the fact that he had those same issues in college, Jsteve.

I think his biggest issue will be durability. He came into the league hurt. And he's just more of a smallish build for the position. (Seems crazy to say about a guy who is my size at 6'3" 220, I don't feel frail at all...just old). If he can't stay healthy all of the arguments for or against are moot. Im hoping the influx of nasty on the o line along with Davidson's tutelage will make that a non issue. The Leary signing feels a lot like Vasquez who for a year helped us to become one of the better lines in the game until Clady got hurt again.

King87
05-16-2017, 04:59 PM
I'm hoping Lynch wins the job and we don't have to debate if our QB is talented or not.

Buff
05-16-2017, 05:09 PM
Siemian is going to be the starter. There is very little doubt in my mind.

Lynch couldn't even hit his wide open targets last year, much less read a defense. I just don't see him being cerebral enough in his 1st year to make all of the LOS reads that are required in McCoy's offense. If I were laying odds, it wouldn't even be that close... Siemian is like even money to start week 1, Lynch is like an 8:1 longshot.

King87
05-16-2017, 05:12 PM
Lynch's completion percentage was not much lower than TS' - TS also got far more first team reps. TS isn't very far ahead of PL. If it's close, go with the guy who has talent.

Jsteve01
05-16-2017, 05:13 PM
I'm hoping Lynch wins the job and we don't have to debate if our QB is talented or not.

Well at least there's no debating your talent and style big guy...

King87
05-16-2017, 05:15 PM
Well at least there's no debating your talent and style big guy...

I have no talent but I have so much style it's technically illegal!

Jsteve01
05-16-2017, 05:59 PM
Hey man who wants talent when Ralph Lauren is envious of your style.

NightTerror218
05-16-2017, 06:06 PM
Sanders just posted that he was the 2nd lowest drop rate 2016. PFF stats.

131 pass targets
80 catchable targets
1 drop
1.25% drop rate
2/96 of eligable WRs (min 50 pass targets)

Cugel
05-16-2017, 06:10 PM
I have no talent but I have so much style it's technically illegal!

I'm the opposite. I've got tons of talent, but no style at all. Or at least my style is kinda "80's cool" which is not cool today.

Slick
05-16-2017, 08:12 PM
Siemian is going to be the starter. There is very little doubt in my mind.

.

This is my worst nightmare. Nothing I saw last year made me want to see another year of it.

King87
05-16-2017, 08:23 PM
This is my worst nightmare. Nothing I saw last year made me want to see another year of it.

You don't like a middling at best talent that history instructs us will almost certainly never be a great difference maker as an individual player? You don't want to invest more time into that?

If PL is close to TS come regular season, and we don't go with PL, I will drown myself in nacho cheese.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-16-2017, 08:41 PM
Watching Lynch in the pocket last year could be likened to a 3 legged gazelle running from a cheetah.

I hope he's been in the film room learning to read defenses.

spikerman
05-16-2017, 08:45 PM
When does the entire team hit the field for OTAs?

King87
05-16-2017, 08:46 PM
Watching Lynch in the pocket last year could be likened to a 3 legged gazelle running from a cheetah.

I hope he's been in the film room learning to read defenses.

He started two games. With little first team reps. Of course he looked raw. He was still on par with TS. He completed 59% of his passes. TS completed 59.5%. And every excuse that TS got -and let's be honest he was given every excuse in the world- would also apply to PL. TS sucked at reading defenses and was a second year guy who was in QB meetings with PFM. What's his excuse?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-16-2017, 08:59 PM
He started two games. With little first team reps. Of course he looked raw. He was still on par with TS. He completed 59% of his passes. TS completed 59.5%. And every excuse that TS got -and let's be honest he was given every excuse in the world- would also apply to PL. TS sucked at reading defenses and was a second year guy who was in QB meetings with PFM. What's his excuse?

Let's get back to the 3 legged gazelle comment. It was a fantastic post. Thank you for conceding.

King87
05-16-2017, 09:12 PM
Let's get back to the 3 legged gazelle comment. It was a fantastic post. Thank you for conceding.

It gained you three style points. I guess I just get irritated at people who defend TS but take shots at PL. By all logic, they should be clamoring for PL. He was on par with TS in a far more difficult situation.

Freyaka
05-16-2017, 10:25 PM
He started two games. With little first team reps. Of course he looked raw. He was still on par with TS. He completed 59% of his passes. TS completed 59.5%. And every excuse that TS got -and let's be honest he was given every excuse in the world- would also apply to PL. TS sucked at reading defenses and was a second year guy who was in QB meetings with PFM. What's his excuse?

Sure he completed 59.5 post injury when his accuracy and arm strength were down...Pre-injury it was consistently 65+ It averaged over 4 games 68.25

King87
05-16-2017, 10:27 PM
Sure he completed 59.5 post injury when his accuracy and arm strength were down...Pre-injury it was consistently 65+ in the first 5 games he average 66.6%

Ah, it's all injury! And we'll forget how the offense was called in the first two games, and the fact that Cincy's corners imploded.

King87
05-16-2017, 10:37 PM
I don't mean to be such an insufferable ass. I do apologize for being a killjoy.

HORSEPOWER 56
05-16-2017, 11:49 PM
I don't mean to be such an insufferable ass. I do apologize for being a killjoy.

Don't apologize. The same dudes saying that Kyle Orion was a perennial pro bowler if it weren't for his dislocated finger and perpetual high-ankle sprains have been reincarnated as Siemian apologists. Some folks just love an underdog, aww shucks success story to the point where they can't see the forest for the trees.

Freyaka
05-17-2017, 12:19 AM
Don't apologize. The same dudes saying that Kyle Orion was a perennial pro bowler if it weren't for his dislocated finger and perpetual high-ankle sprains have been reincarnated as Siemian apologists. Some folks just love an underdog, aww shucks success story to the point where they can't see the forest for the trees.

Ya no...I was dumb enough to be on the Tebow side of that argument...I was never an Orton fan.

#footballjesus

underrated29
05-17-2017, 05:22 AM
Ya no...I was dumb enough to be on the Tebow side of that argument...I was never an Orton fan.

#footballjesus


Tebow over Orton all day everyday

NightTerror218
05-17-2017, 01:30 PM
Sure he completed 59.5 post injury when his accuracy and arm strength were down...Pre-injury it was consistently 65+ It averaged over 4 games 68.25

Whuch also happens with a lot of QBs once there is game film in the QB. RG3 was one of the most accurate his rookie year and look at him now. A handful of games does not say much. This year teams have a full season of tape on him to study. See if he can be accurate again or not. I find him below average in accuracy. He was helped by thomas and sanders making some of the most difficult and acrobatic catches.

Cugel
05-17-2017, 05:34 PM
You don't like a middling at best talent that history instructs us will almost certainly never be a great difference maker as an individual player? You don't want to invest more time into that?

If PL is close to TS come regular season, and we don't go with PL, I will drown myself in nacho cheese.

There will be no need to stock up on cheesy comestibles. If Paxton is close to Trevor in terms of play during the pre-season he will get the start because he's much more athletic and has a stronger arm.

Being "close to Trevor" would mean that his reading of defenses, getting the offense into the right play, audible and checking at the line, and accuracy on his passes is close to Trevor.

Paxton is light years ahead of Trevor in terms of athletic talent, but last year light years behind on the mental aspects of QBing in the NFL. It's that mental aspect that is the most important, so that's where he needs to improve most. We'll see what he can do with an entire season and off-season to prepare.

Cugel
05-17-2017, 05:38 PM
Tebow over Orton all day everyday

You wash your mouth out with soap after that last blasphemy! Kyle Orton was serviceable. That means that several teams in his NFL career actually wanted him to start. And when he decided to retire, Rex Ryan desperately tried to talk him back into playing one more year. Rex still feels that Orton's retirement doomed his coaching tenure in Buffalo and said so on 104.3 the Fan this past month.

Was he an elite QB capable of winning a SB? Hell no.

But, when Tebow hit the skids, NOBODY in the NFL wanted him as their starting QB. Nobody. He simply sucked hard as a QB, no matter what his ability as a runner. Some NFL teams asked his agent whether he would consider coming back into the league as a TE or RB or anything really other than QB. He said no and that was all she wrote.

spikerman
05-17-2017, 05:40 PM
What bugged me about Orton, and to some extent TS, is that if you need 3 yards for a 1st down they'll pass it 3 yards. If you need 8 yards, they'll throw it 3 yards.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-17-2017, 07:25 PM
What bugged me about Orton, and to some extent TS, is that if you need 3 yards for a 1st down they'll pass it 3 yards. If you need 8 yards, they'll throw it 3 yards.

Or if it's 3rd and 1 they throw a 50 yard sideline route.

King87
05-17-2017, 11:01 PM
Or if it's 3rd and 1 they throw a 50 yard sideline route.

TS doesn't do that, in his defense.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-17-2017, 11:18 PM
TS doesn't do that, in his defense.

In no way did I imply it was completed

Hawgdriver
05-17-2017, 11:19 PM
TS doesn't do that, in his defense.

You mean he can't throw the ball 50 yards? To clarify.

The arm strength argument is hackneyed. He is unlikely to be the guy. But this argument makes you look dumb.

King87
05-17-2017, 11:19 PM
In no way did I imply it was completed

I was earnestly defending him, sir. Sheesh! You're being a bully and making me sad!!!!

King87
05-17-2017, 11:20 PM
You mean he can't throw the ball 50 yards? To clarify.

The arm strength argument is hackneyed. He is unlikely to be the guy. But this argument makes you look dumb.

Holy shit - I was defending him in the sense of just throwing a bomb for the sake of it on third and short.

Hit the bricks with Al.

Hawgdriver
05-17-2017, 11:21 PM
Holy shit - I was defending him in the sense of just throwing a bomb for the sake of it on third and short.

Hit the bricks with Al.

You have history.

I'm always on the bricks anyway.

King87
05-17-2017, 11:24 PM
You have history.

I'm always on the bricks anyway.

Yeah, my history absolves your poor reading, sir.

And I'm sorry that I point out he struggles with deep passes and overthrows, or that he's had issues with both of those going back to college. I didn't know we had sacred cows on the roster, sir.

Jaded
05-17-2017, 11:28 PM
I hated how Orton never hit Seat 12 Section 120 right in the hands...like Tebow. Nobody does it Timmy did, sheer will and passion.

Barf.

Hawgdriver
05-17-2017, 11:28 PM
Yeah, my history absolves your poor reading, sir.

And I'm sorry that I point out he struggles with deep passes and overthrows, or that he's had issues with both of those going back to college. I didn't know we had sacred cows on the roster, sir.

eat a dick, buttsnark

King87
05-17-2017, 11:28 PM
Sometimes the people here really just let you down.

Jaded
05-17-2017, 11:34 PM
Don't apologize. The same dudes saying that Kyle Orion was a perennial pro bowler if it weren't for his dislocated finger and perpetual high-ankle sprains have been reincarnated as Siemian apologists. Some folks just love an underdog, aww shucks success story to the point where they can't see the forest for the trees.

Siemian has nothing to apologize for...and I hated Orton.

Hawgdriver
05-17-2017, 11:35 PM
Sometimes the people here really just let you down.

Sometimes? Always.

King87
05-17-2017, 11:39 PM
Sometimes? Always.

I never let you down. I never treated you like a hype man!

Hawgdriver
05-17-2017, 11:46 PM
I never let you down. I never treated you like a hype man!

What is a hype man. You can't do this last second vocab counterbattery fire. I mean, you can. Obviously. But it's some guerrilla ass shit.

King87
05-17-2017, 11:48 PM
What is a hype man. You can't do this last second vocab counterbattery fire. I mean, you can. Obviously. But it's some guerrilla ass shit.

A hypeman. The dude going nuts in the background for a performer. Flava flav was a famous hypeman.

I never treated you like a hypeman.

Hawgdriver
05-17-2017, 11:50 PM
Flava flav. You must know I love Public Enemy.

Not sure what to say, but thanks for caring.

King87
05-17-2017, 11:52 PM
I never treated you like a hypeman. I never let you down. But you, you sick monster! Wallowing in the filthy wounds you've caused this place. Corruption seeping from your soul. You're a demon.

Jaded
05-18-2017, 12:03 AM
Didn't Morris Day have a hype man?

King87
05-18-2017, 12:04 AM
Didn't Morris Day have a hype man?

I'm the entire board's hype man.

Hopefully TS will be PL's hype man.

Peace.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-18-2017, 12:08 AM
Didn't Morris Day have a hype man?


https://youtu.be/N2FPQvwhSDY

FanInAZ
05-18-2017, 01:06 AM
Tebow over Orton all day everyday

Would I want to have my drink spiked with Cyanide or Arsenic :confused:

Slick
05-18-2017, 07:22 AM
I hated how Orton never hit Seat 12 Section 120 right in the hands...like Tebow. Nobody does it Timmy did, sheer will and passion.

Barf.

Making the playoffs after starting 1-4 really sucked

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 07:51 AM
I dont really care for siemian one way or the other, I like him way more than orton, but my sole purpose of the response is to the statement " he does not have an NFL arm. "


He absolutely does have arm strength to make all NFL throws. I found that a bit odd, aside from that, I have nothing else to say on the matter. His arm is very very strong.

Siemien >>>>>>>>>Orton and it's not close. Kyle Orton was so bad that Tebow was an improvement. Orton was the worst starting QB in the franchise's history.

Freyaka
05-18-2017, 07:58 AM
Siemien >>>>>>>>>Orton and it's not close. Kyle Orton was so bad that Tebow was an improvement. Orton was the worst starting QB in the franchise's history.

That's your bias talking and it's wrong. Look, don't get me wrong, I didn't like Orton either, but he wasn't that bad, Tebow only seemed like an improvement because the team stepped up and rallied behind Tim to mask his deficiencies.

Tim Tebow was by a country mile, the worst starting QB in Broncos history.

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 08:03 AM
That's your bias talking and it's wrong. Look, don't get me wrong, I didn't like Orton either, but he wasn't that bad, Tebow only seemed like an improvement because the team stepped up and rallied behind Tim to mask his deficiencies.

Tim Tebow was by a country mile, the worst starting QB in Broncos history.

You're wrong. A QBs primary job is to win games, Tebow did that better than Orton with the same exact supporting cast and he did it two seasons in a row. I don't care what it looked like. When Orton played we lost to the Raiders by 50, Tebow beat Pitt in a playoff game with virtually the same exact team.

Freyaka
05-18-2017, 08:07 AM
You're wrong. A QBs primary job is to win games, Tebow did that better than Orton with the same exact supporting cast and he did it two seasons in a row. I don't care what it looked like. When Orton played we lost to the Raiders by 50, Tebow beat Pitt in a playoff game with virtually the same exact team.

Lol ok, if you say so chaz... Tebow sucked... Qb isn't the only player on the roster and can't win games by themselves.

The defense and run game carried Tebow, with out them we'd have won maybe one game, he was a pathetic sack of crap.

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 08:09 AM
Lol ok, if you say so chaz... Tebow sucked... Qb isn't the only player on the roster and can't win games by themselves.

The defense and run game carried Tebow, with out them we'd have won maybe one game, he was a pathetic sack of crap.

Show me exactly where I said Tebow didn't suck. Please show me. Orton was a much more pathetic sack of crap. Just rewatch the Raiders debacle.

Freyaka
05-18-2017, 08:16 AM
Believe what you want, I'd take Orton again before I'd take Tebow. Tebow was a pathetic racing stripe on the underwear of the Denver Broncos.

He was the worst excuse for a qb in a long, long time. If it wasn't for the fact that he could run the ball we'd have been screwed.

He was a waste of roster space gimmick rb playing out of position at qb.

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 08:20 AM
Believe what you want, I'd take Orton again before I'd take Tebow. Tebow was a pathetic racing stripe on the underwear of the Denver Broncos.

He was the worst excuse for a qb in a long, long time. If it wasn't for the fact that he could run the ball we'd have been screwed.

He was a waste of roster space gimmick rb playing out of position at qb.
And yet he won games when Orton couldn't, so what does that make Orton? :laugh::laugh::laugh: Orton was the worst QB we've ever had and that's saying something because we had Tebow. :laugh::laugh:

Freyaka
05-18-2017, 08:25 AM
And yet he won games when Orton couldn't, so what does that make Orton? :laugh::laugh::laugh: Orton was the worst QB we've ever had and that's saying something because we had Tebow. :laugh::laugh:

No... The team won games, Tebow just came along for the freaking ride as a pathetic cheerleader.

As a qb Tebow was a joke...

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 08:32 AM
No... The team won games, Tebow just came along for the freaking ride as a pathetic cheerleader.

As a qb Tebow was a joke...

And Orton was an even funnier joke.

VonDoom
05-18-2017, 08:40 AM
Is this thread still about our current QB competition? Albert Breer's column at the MMQB this morning leads with this story, including some quotes from Joseph:


Joseph’s feel for the two is just what you’d think. He says Siemian plays “a game of patience, it’s a game of confidence. He is in control. ... He’s a smart guy, he throws the ball where it should go most of the time, he’s got a high football IQ.” And on Lynch, Joseph says, “The physical ability is there. He’s a first-round pick, great height, great arm talent, great mobility.”

But where those two are going into OTAs isn’t nearly as important as where they’ll be coming out of camp in August. The head coach repeated what he’s said before—there’s “no deadline” on making a decision. “If it goes down to the final week,” Joseph says, “I’m not opposed to that, because our goal is only to have the best guy win the job.”

The criteria is a little clearer.

“I’d say decision-making is going to be a major factor in who wins the job,” Joseph said. “That’s the position in the NFL—the guy who makes great decisions with the football, not turning the football over, and the guy who lets his teammates play for him, that’s the guy I want to lead our football team. Obviously, ball placement in the pass game, the ability to get us into the best play, those things are important.

“But it comes down to decision making, that’s the biggest factor in this decision I’m going to make.”

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/05/18/denver-broncos-quarterback-position-battles-nfl-notebook

FanInAZ
05-18-2017, 08:47 AM
Making the playoffs after starting 1-4 really sucked

With an 8-8 record that was largely the result of a 6 game stretch in which none of our opponents finished with a winning record or play-off birth. The combine records of those record of those teams: 44-54

As far as the 1st 5 opponents, none of them finished with a losing record, 3 had winning records. 1 made the playoffs & 2 others finished with better records than the Broncos & therefore would've made it in if they had the good fortune of being in the AFCW. Their combined record: 49-31.

In the 5 games following the 6 game winning streak, they got blown out twice by the Patriots & once by the Bills. They ended the regular season losing to the Orton led Chiefs, even though he had joined their team just a week or 2 earlier. Yes, the Broncos the 1 win was a playoff game in which Tebow played very good for the 1st half before stinking it up in the 2nd. They won the game when Tebow threw a barely adequate pass that DT took distance, a fact that's over looked because nobody got credit for doing anything except Tebow who did very little.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2011.htm

Orton started off his Broncos career with a 6 game winning streak as well. 4 of those teams went on to win their respective divisions, including the Patriots. The combine records of those teams: 54-42

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2009.htm

Joel
05-18-2017, 09:06 AM
Believe what you want, I'd take Orton again before I'd take Tebow. Tebow was a pathetic racing stripe on the underwear of the Denver Broncos.

He was the worst excuse for a qb in a long, long time. If it wasn't for the fact that he could run the ball we'd have been screwed.

He was a waste of roster space gimmick rb playing out of position at qb.
... and even THAT was good enough to take Ortons job. I mean, whose bias is REALLY talking here? However one feels about the personalities, the concrete fact remains that, as chazoe (and I, and many others) have noted, Tebow didn't just win (a lot) more games than Orton he won (a lot) more games on AN IDENTICAL ROSTER. Yes, Von was DRoY in 2011: And 1-4 with Orton, but 7-4 with Tebow. Plus a playoff win against the defending AFC Champs (who'd nearly won the previous SB, and only wound up a WC because the Ravens had an equally good 12-4 record but won the division on tiebreaks.)

Same old Boolean false dichotomy. Orton CAN'T be the Worst QB Evuh, because Tebow MUST—or vice versa. If we insist on those choices, the record's indisputable:

Broncos+Orton=4-14
Broncos+Tebow=8-6 (1-1 postseason)

Counting all starts, it's almost the same number, but we LOST twice as many with Orton and WON twice as many with Tebow. Note that I didn't say "Tebow won x number of games," because that invariably provokes the kneejerk "Tebow sux; the McCoys creativity and the D won all those games." Even though it was the SAME D that went 4-14 with Orton. If McCoy's such a versatile genius he can even cobble together an effective offense around a broken one-dimensional QB like Tebow, what does it say that our versatile offensive genius cobbled together a 4-14 offense around Orton...?

That's not to say we wouldn't have won a dozen or more games with Manning, Rodgers, Elway in his prime, or even Rivers; maybe even Flacco. It just says THE SAME 52 GUYS were a .222 team with Orton but a .570 team with Tebow. If he sucked out loud, the guy twice as bad must be, well, TWICE AS BAD, by definition.

You'd take Orton over Tebow; well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but given PRECISELY that choice, Elway (who knows a few things about being a starting NFL QB, if not much about how to PROTECT one) made the opposite choice. It's "win from now on," not "lose from now on."

Mike
05-18-2017, 09:06 AM
Orton will go down as one of my least favorite Broncos of all time. He made watching the Broncos a misery for me.

Freyaka
05-18-2017, 10:03 AM
... and even THAT was good enough to take Ortons job. I mean, whose bias is REALLY talking here? However one feels about the personalities, the concrete fact remains that, as chazoe (and I, and many others) have noted, Tebow didn't just win (a lot) more games than Orton he won (a lot) more games on AN IDENTICAL ROSTER. Yes, Von was DRoY in 2011: And 1-4 with Orton, but 7-4 with Tebow. Plus a playoff win against the defending AFC Champs (who'd nearly won the previous SB, and only wound up a WC because the Ravens had an equally good 12-4 record but won the division on tiebreaks.)

Same old Boolean false dichotomy. Orton CAN'T be the Worst QB Evuh, because Tebow MUST—or vice versa. If we insist on those choices, the record's indisputable:

Broncos+Orton=4-14
Broncos+Tebow=8-6 (1-1 postseason)

Counting all starts, it's almost the same number, but we LOST twice as many with Orton and WON twice as many with Tebow. Note that I didn't say "Tebow won x number of games," because that invariably provokes the kneejerk "Tebow sux; the McCoys creativity and the D won all those games." Even though it was the SAME D that went 4-14 with Orton. If McCoy's such a versatile genius he can even cobble together an effective offense around a broken one-dimensional QB like Tebow, what does it say that our versatile offensive genius cobbled together a 4-14 offense around Orton...?

That's not to say we wouldn't have won a dozen or more games with Manning, Rodgers, Elway in his prime, or even Rivers; maybe even Flacco. It just says THE SAME 52 GUYS were a .222 team with Orton but a .570 team with Tebow. If he sucked out loud, the guy twice as bad must be, well, TWICE AS BAD, by definition.

You'd take Orton over Tebow; well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but given PRECISELY that choice, Elway (who knows a few things about being a starting NFL QB, if not much about how to PROTECT one) made the opposite choice. It's "win from now on," not "lose from now on."

Joel, what a silly comparison...

Wins aren't QB centric...You say "well same team" but that's not the case. Tebow played with a drastically (VERY DRASTICALLY) different offensive system designed to be simple enough for the big dummy to understand it. Because no one had any film on tape, they had no idea how to defend it.

Tebow didn't play defense, the fact that the defense gave Tebow more, that doesn't make him a better QB, that makes him a cheerleader. During the games Orton started in 2010/2011 the defense was averaging 29 points per game given up...With Tebow? 20.

Tebow's not a defender, can't credit him with holding the opponent to less points...

I'm not arguing that Orton was somehow a great QB that we should have kept or something... I'm arguing that Tebow gets way too much credit for being a cheerleader and a running back, but as a QB the position he was actually supposed to play, he was HORRID.

Orton in 2011 had a 20 TD 9 INT season...If he were playing with our defense in 2015, he'd have done a hell of a job of winning us a superbowl. Tebow would not have. Orton catches a lot of flack, but he had almost 4,000 yards in 13 games started, 20 td 9 int's a 58.8 completion percentage (which I will grant you isn't terrific) all while taking 34 sacks from absolutely terrible pass protection.

People want to piss and moan about Orton, but that isn't the performance of a QB that is the "worst ever" hell, Manning's last season looked far worse than that. It's a QB that is stuck behind a bad line and a horrid defense.

Freyaka
05-18-2017, 10:07 AM
And that's the last I'll say about it so we can get back on topic.

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 10:08 AM
Tebow sucked, Orton sucked worse. And that's the last I'll say on the subject.

underrated29
05-18-2017, 11:01 AM
I'm the entire board's hype man.

Hopefully TS will be PL's hype man.

Peace.




Kapri Bibbs!

CoryWinget81
05-18-2017, 11:54 AM
It'll be Siemian.

Paxton has a shot though. If McCoy can dumb down a playbook enough for Simple Jack from Gainesville to halfway understand it, he should be in good shape.

McCoy: Alright, Tim, work this play out on the board.
Simple Tim: I got a g-g-g-ooood brain

Fox: We have to start you, Orton is terrible
Simple Tim: You mmake me haaaaappy

Cugel
05-18-2017, 01:34 PM
You're wrong. A QBs primary job is to win games, Tebow did that better than Orton with the same exact supporting cast and he did it two seasons in a row. I don't care what it looked like. When Orton played we lost to the Raiders by 50, Tebow beat Pitt in a playoff game with virtually the same exact team.

Peyton Manning threw for 120 yards and had two turnovers in the SB. But, the TEAM won. Peyton did not "beat" the Panthers except in the most banal sense.

Tebow did not beat Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh came out with an incredibly stupid defense and lost on a fluke play. If those two teams played each other 10 times the Broncos would lose 9. The very next week the Patriots crushed the Broncos and broke a bunch of Tebow's ribs. This turned out to be the last game Tebow ever started, because all NFL GMs decided "he sucks."

This included some Jets coaches who would soon be fired because they didn't have a QB.

I'm no fan of Kyle Orton, but at least he was mediocre. He played for what, eight years? He was the starting QB for 3 different teams?

Tebow, by universal consensus was not even good enough to start for anybody and Elway got rid of him just as soon as he could. The team backed into the playoffs, got lucky in one fluke win that could never happen again, and then promptly lost. Tebow then departed and then proved on two separate teams that he could not play QB.

At all.

Valar Morghulis
05-18-2017, 01:36 PM
Peyton Manning threw for 120 yards and had two turnovers in the SB. But, the TEAM won. Peyton did not "beat" the Panthers except in the most banal sense. Tebow did not beat Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh came out with an incredibly stupid defense and lost on a fluke play. If those two teams played each other 10 times the Broncos would lose 9. The very next week the Patriots crushed the Broncos and broke a bunch of Tebow's ribs. This turned out to be the last game Tebow ever started, because all NFL GMs decided "he sucks." This included some Jets coaches who would soon be fired because they didn't have a QB. I'm no fan of Kyle Orton, but at least he was mediocre. He played for what, eight years? He was the starting QB for 3 different teams? Tebow, by universal consensus was not even good enough to start for anybody and Elway got rid of him just as soon as he could. The team backed into the playoffs, got lucky in one fluke win that could never happen again, and then promptly lost. Tebow then departed and then proved on two separate teams that he could not play QB. At all.

It's rare that I agree with 100% of cugels tomes, but I think this echoes my opinion exactly.

Cugel
05-18-2017, 01:37 PM
That's your bias talking and it's wrong. Look, don't get me wrong, I didn't like Orton either, but he wasn't that bad, Tebow only seemed like an improvement because the team stepped up and rallied behind Tim to mask his deficiencies.

Tim Tebow was by a country mile, the worst starting QB in Broncos history.

"It is known that Tebow was the worst, yes." And no, it is not even close. This includes some Broncos AFL QBs in the '60s who were pretty bad too.

CoryWinget81
05-18-2017, 02:46 PM
Tim Tebow averaged 69 yards passing a game in his career.

Tim Tebow was statistically the worst QB in Denver history. Period. It's not even close.

You can wax poetic and stick your hands down your pants while remembering how good you felt Tebowing, but it still doesn't change the fact that the dude couldn't play dead in a western.

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 03:13 PM
And yet he was still a better option than Orton. Pretty sad.

Timmy!
05-18-2017, 03:19 PM
Tebow was a horrible passing QB, horrrrrrible. However, he did win a playoff game, which hadn't happened in 5ish years. So I'm just gonna throw out the names: Chris Simms, Danny Kennel, and Jarious Jackson. Pick one.

CoryWinget81
05-18-2017, 03:31 PM
Tebow was a horrible passing QB, horrrrrrible. However, he did win a playoff game, which hadn't happened in 5ish years. So I'm just gonna throw out the names: Chris Simms, Danny Kennel, and Jarious Jackson. Pick one.

Alright, I'll give you Simms. I stand corrected :laugh:

Timmy!
05-18-2017, 03:41 PM
Alright, I'll give you Simms. I stand corrected :laugh:

Never forget golden rod!

CoryWinget81
05-18-2017, 03:44 PM
Never forget golden rod!

The image of him standing around laughing at the Chargers sideline with SD players after that 32-3 drubbing will never escape my memory.
http://www.denverpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/20091122__BroncosFumble112209p1.jpg?w=600

MOtorboat
05-18-2017, 03:53 PM
Just stahp.

Tebow was, quite literally, one of the worst quarterbacks to ever play in the NFL. Like Akili Smith if he played on a luckier team.

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 03:56 PM
Just stahp.

Tebow was, quite literally, one of the worst quarterbacks to ever play in the NFL. Like Akili Smith if he played on a luckier team.

I refer you to post #217 of this thread.

Jaded
05-18-2017, 09:33 PM
Making the playoffs after starting 1-4 really sucked

Amen to that!

Jaded
05-18-2017, 09:34 PM
You're wrong. A QBs primary job is to win games, Tebow did that better than Orton with the same exact supporting cast and he did it two seasons in a row. I don't care what it looked like. When Orton played we lost to the Raiders by 50, Tebow beat Pitt in a playoff game with virtually the same exact team.

Barf.

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 09:52 PM
Barf.

Yeah, Bronco playoff wins make me sick too. I much prefer losing to Raiders 49-14.

Jaded
05-18-2017, 09:53 PM
Yeah, Bronco playoff wins make me sick too. I much prefer losing to Raiders 49-14.

That wasn't for the win, but for the spin.

Jaded
05-18-2017, 09:55 PM
Btw, 49-14 and the Tebow PO "win" are the same thing, a "fluke". Happens every once in a while.

King87
05-18-2017, 09:59 PM
Btw, 49-14 and the Tebow PO "win" are the same thing, a "fluke". Happens every once in a while.

Exactly - FFS you found someone who married YOU!

Jaded
05-18-2017, 10:07 PM
Exactly - FFS you found someone who married YOU!

That's beyond a fluke, she should be sainted.

King87
05-18-2017, 10:08 PM
That's beyond a fluke, she should be sainted.

Does she beat you?

Jaded
05-18-2017, 10:11 PM
Does she beat you?

No, like you said, we're married, so...not even for my birthday.

Cugel
05-18-2017, 10:32 PM
Tim Tebow averaged 69 yards passing a game in his career.

Tim Tebow was statistically the worst QB in Denver history. Period. It's not even close.

You can wax poetic and stick your hands down your pants while remembering how good you felt Tebowing, but it still doesn't change the fact that the dude couldn't play dead in a western.

If he could play, considering how desperate some teams are always for a starting QB and how few really good ones are available each year, some team would have signed him to play QB a long time ago. How many coaches have been fired in the last 3 years because they didn't have a good QB while Aryan Jesus's been out of the league?

Why didn't one of them try and save their job by signing Tebow if he was worth as much as a bucket of warm piss? The Teboners have no answer to that one!

Cugel
05-18-2017, 10:43 PM
No, like you said, we're married, so...not even for my birthday.

It's posts like this that make me come back here even when I don't think anything interesting has happened.

CoryWinget81
05-18-2017, 10:55 PM
If he could play, considering how desperate some teams are always for a starting QB and how few really good ones are available each year, some team would have signed him to play QB a long time ago. How many coaches have been fired in the last 3 years because they didn't have a good QB while Aryan Jesus's been out of the league?

Why didn't one of them try and save their job by signing Tebow if he was worth as much as a bucket of warm piss? The Teboners have no answer to that one!

The defacto excuse used to be: they're afraid he'll upend people's legacies


Remember when people (looking at you Chaz) were saying Elway only wanted to get rid of Tebow because he was afraid he'd be better and more popular than him?

LOL

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 10:57 PM
The defacto excuse used to be: they're afraid he'll upend people's legacies


Remember when people (looking at you Chaz) were saying Elway only wanted to get rid of Tebow because he was afraid he'd be better and more popular than him?

LOL

What in the holy **** are you talking about? I've never said anything even remotely close to that in my life. You are so confused it's funny.

CoryWinget81
05-18-2017, 11:00 PM
What in the holy **** are you talking about? I've never said anything even remotely close to that in my life. You are so confused it's funny.

Oh, it's been awhile. My bad didn't mean to pigeon hole you with that.

But, that was the narrative.

Anyway, does anyone think Siemian will have better luck at a downfield offense than Lynch?

King87
05-18-2017, 11:00 PM
Can't you two just play nice?

Slick
05-18-2017, 11:01 PM
The defacto excuse used to be: they're afraid he'll upend people's legacies


Remember when people (looking at you Chaz) were saying Elway only wanted to get rid of Tebow because he was afraid he'd be better and more popular than him?

LOL

That sounds like something Bullgator would have said.

CoryWinget81
05-18-2017, 11:01 PM
Can't you two just play nice?

come on now i said sorry!

chazoe60
05-18-2017, 11:01 PM
Can't you two just play nice?

No.

King87
05-18-2017, 11:02 PM
come on now i said sorry!

Cory, do not **** around and get hashtagged, sir. I love you, but I will hashtag you if you try to murderdance my brospeh Chaz!

CoryWinget81
05-18-2017, 11:03 PM
No.

Let's let bygones be bygones. There's no sense in being angry at each other over a floppy armed, pissing down his leg orton and a couldn't hit the water if he fell out of a boat Tebow.

Yeah?

King87
05-18-2017, 11:05 PM
Be healed, my brethren!

FanInAZ
05-18-2017, 11:16 PM
If we insist on those choices, the record's indisputable:

Broncos+Orton=4-14
Broncos+Tebow=8-6 (1-1 postseason)

Wrong, Broncos+Orton=12-21 The Broncos in Orton's 1st 14 starts, 8-6, just like Tebow. As I mentioned in my previous post, Tebow got that shot at a postseason win because the AFCW was so bad that year that it could be won with an 8-8 record, while 2 teams that would've won the AFCW had they been in the division miss out.

Jaded
05-19-2017, 01:46 AM
That sounds like something Bullgator would have said.

Weird, cause...

That's what Broncos fans, on this and every other MB, were saying since the day Elway didn't look excited enough after one of the worst displays of QBing since the advent of the forward pass. Broncos fans, legit Broncos fans.......lots of them, were guilty of such comments.

Jaded
05-19-2017, 01:52 AM
Y'all really don't remember Tebowmania well at all, must be your subconscious. Slick has an excuse cause he lives in paradise.

#neverforget
#thestrugglewasreal

King87
05-19-2017, 02:00 AM
IIRC, Tebow was awful, made a handful of plays that mattered, usually in the fourth quarter on a lucky throw or scramble, and the defense played out of it's mind, especially against a weak schedule. I also recall the Lions drubbing Denver and making comments about how it was embarrassing for Tebow to be a starting QB.

MOtorboat
05-19-2017, 02:45 AM
IIRC, Tebow was awful, made a handful of plays that mattered, usually in the fourth quarter on a lucky throw or scramble, and the defense played out of it's mind, especially against a weak schedule. I also recall the Lions drubbing Denver and making comments about how it was embarrassing for Tebow to be a starting QB.

Denver won 1 of its last 5 games that season. Scored 15 points per game. Clutch.

MOtorboat
05-19-2017, 02:57 AM
2011 was one of the worst offensive seasons the Broncos have ever experienced. It was the worst ranking, in terms of points, and fourth worst ranked season, in terms of yards, in franchise history. It was a disaster of a season and one lucky ass playoff win doesn't tell the picture one bit.