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ShaneFalco
04-08-2017, 01:36 AM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000798494/article/does-siemian-have-upper-hand-on-paxton-lynch



Now that Tony Romo is out of the picture, the Denver Broncos' quarterback job is up for grabs between Trevor Siemian and Paxton Lynch.

Although coach Vance Joseph has preached an open competition between the incumbent starter and the 2016 first-round draft pick, Siemian remains the favorite to be under center in Week 1.

After speaking with Joseph, NFL Network's James Palmer told Omar Ruiz of Up to the Minute Live that Siemian has the "upper hand" entering the offseason program.

Siemian might have been widely viewed as a pet project of former coach Gary Kubiak, but the new coach has been impressed after taking an in-depth look at the 2016 game film.

Despite subpar pass protection and an inconsistent ground attack, the Broncos coaching staff believes "he played very well last season," Palmer added. "They believe he played at a higher level than many assume."

Joseph went a step further, maintaining that Siemian didn't get the credit he deserved in league circles.

The high praise didn't end there, either. Joseph also raved about Siemian's intelligence and intangibles.

"Players want to play for him," Joseph told Palmer. "They want to win for him."

Joseph has taken a different view of the raw but talented Lynch, pointing to leadership, studying and understanding the offensive system as areas in need of improvement.

If Lynch does make significant strides in those areas, he can turn this into a legitimate battle by training camp.

From the tone of Joseph's comments, though, it certainly doesn't appear that Siemian has lost any ground since December. Palmer reported at the time that the former seventh-round pick was regarded inside Broncos headquarters as the likely starter for the next couple of seasons.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2017/04/07/0ap3000000798499_thumbnail_200_150.jpg

Hawgdriver
04-08-2017, 02:09 AM
From the mouths of leaders of men...

ShaneFalco
04-08-2017, 02:09 AM
in case you missed this line


Palmer reported at the time that the former seventh-round pick was regarded inside Broncos headquarters as the likely starter for the next couple of seasons.

Northman
04-08-2017, 07:13 AM
Watching how this plays out will be interesting. Denver goes 9-7 with Trevor in his first year to which the kid did a fair job for a first time starter. Now, the new coach (not the old one) is saying the same things the former one did in terms of the teams respect and like for Siemian but somehow the guy has managed to have a bandwagon of haters against him. The only bad thing in all this is if Trevor keeps the starting job it means we wasted a pick on Lynch that could of gone to another position unless they trade Paxton for some kind of compensation. I hope Trevor continues to win the job and improves even more.

slim
04-08-2017, 08:26 AM
The Siemian train is starting to roll!

MO, get onboard!!

MOtorboat
04-08-2017, 12:26 PM
The Siemian train is starting to roll!

MO, get onboard!!

Is that like at the end of the night at a long party when the only way to get home is get in the car with a drunk driver?

Well, guys...it's the only option.

slim
04-08-2017, 12:56 PM
Is that like at the end of the night at a long party when the only way to get home is get in the car with a drunk driver?

Well, guys...it's the only option.

Do a quick comparison of Trevor's stats from last year vs. Brady's stats his second year in the league.

#GOAT

Slick
04-08-2017, 01:39 PM
Milk toast.

Nomad
04-08-2017, 01:40 PM
Watching how this plays out will be interesting. Denver goes 9-7 with Trevor in his first year to which the kid did a fair job for a first time starter. Now, the new coach (not the old one) is saying the same things the former one did in terms of the teams respect and like for Siemian but somehow the guy has managed to have a bandwagon of haters against him. The only bad thing in all this is if Trevor keeps the starting job it means we wasted a pick on Lynch that could of gone to another position unless they trade Paxton for some kind of compensation. I hope Trevor continues to win the job and improves even more.

From what I've read here over the years.....What happened to 2-3 yrs to develop? Is the new standard that QBs coming out of college should be NFL ready from day 1? I agree with you and believe Siemian did a fine job. I would like to see Lynch given more time to be NFL ready.

Northman
04-08-2017, 02:06 PM
From what I've read here over the years.....What happened to 2-3 yrs to develop? Is the new standard that QBs coming out of college should be NFL ready from day 1? I agree with you and believe Siemian did a fine job. I would like to see Lynch given more time to be NFL ready.

It is still 2-3 years to develop. Its a rarity that a QB will come in and simply play lights out. Even as great as Dak played this year he benefitted a LOT from Elliot who also had a monster year and one of the best Oline's in football. Guys like Carson who started hot cooled off pretty quickly when the league started to catch on later in the year are the norm when it comes to young QB's. Same with Trevor, we saw some times when he looked pretty good and other times not so much but there are always growing pains the first couple of years. I dont care if you draft a first round QB or a 7th round QB, if they are your starter than they will need time to develop and catch up to the speed of the NFL and learn the a much broader playbook than they had in college. Lynch may have better attributes and athleticism but if he cant grasp the playbook as well as Trevor or outplay him in practice than you go with the guy who is more up to speed and at the moment that seems its Trevor.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-08-2017, 02:44 PM
Tom Brady's career stats:

http://www.nfl.com/player/tombrady/2504211/careerstats

Trevor's career stats:

http://www.nfl.com/player/trevorsiemian/2553457/careerstats

King87
04-08-2017, 02:46 PM
Unfortunately guys don't get two years to develop on the bench anymore. I want Lynch to earn his way onto the field, but he's also got to get a shot, too.

King87
04-08-2017, 02:47 PM
Can we please not do the absurd comparison between Brady and Trevor Siemian as first year starters? Because Brady played with significantly different rules. I'm not trying to be rude, but it's not accurate at all.

VonDoom
04-08-2017, 03:10 PM
It's interesting that two different coaches have talked up Siemian so much now. The part about Lynch not "understanding " the offense makes me concerned a bit. Intelligence was a worry when we drafted him.

Still, not sure how much we can judge either of them considering we're unveiling an entirely new offense this year

Slick
04-08-2017, 03:22 PM
I would rather see them develop the bigger, stronger armed more mobile kid. It's not about being impatient with Trevor Siemian. Of all the mistakes Kubiak made last year, that was his biggest. I think it's one of the reasons he isn't the coach anymore.

Nomad
04-08-2017, 03:29 PM
Not much a HC can do if his QB can't grasp the playbook. He becomes a liability then.

Jsteve01
04-08-2017, 03:35 PM
I would rather see them develop the bigger, stronger armed more mobile kid. It's not about being impatient with Trevor Siemian. Of all the mistakes Kubiak made last year, that was his biggest. I think it's one of the reasons he isn't the coach anymore. By all accounts the camp competition wasnt even close. Siemian was far better than the journeyman or the rookie. Want to know how to lose the confidence of your veteran roster who just happens to be coming off a super bowl win? Play the high draft pick over the guy who is doing the better job. Is Siemian the future? I have no idea but the consistent discount of the the impact that below average line play and run game had on the offense is something I cant wrap my head around. Then you add in the injuries and i am left to wonder what we really have. Acting as if the serious shoulder injury and high ankle sprain didnt impact his ability to play the position is baffling to me.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-08-2017, 03:50 PM
By all accounts the camp competition wasnt even close. Siemian was far better than the journeyman or the rookie. Want to know how to lose the confidence of your veteran roster who just happens to be coming off a super bowl win? Play the high draft pick over the guy who is doing the better job. Is Siemian the future? I have no idea but the consistent discount of the the impact that below average line play and run game had on the offense is something I cant wrap my head around. Then you add in the injuries and i am left to wonder what we really have. Acting as if the serious shoulder injury and high ankle sprain didnt impact his ability to play the position is baffling to me.

Good post-

Northman
04-08-2017, 05:05 PM
Not much a HC can do if his QB can't grasp the playbook. He becomes a liability then.

Pretty much. If a QB is a project and needs a lot more work you simply cant put him in just because. That could actually end up hurting his development by forcing him if he is not ready.

King87
04-08-2017, 05:17 PM
By all accounts the camp competition wasnt even close. Siemian was far better than the journeyman or the rookie. Want to know how to lose the confidence of your veteran roster who just happens to be coming off a super bowl win? Play the high draft pick over the guy who is doing the better job. Is Siemian the future? I have no idea but the consistent discount of the the impact that below average line play and run game had on the offense is something I cant wrap my head around. Then you add in the injuries and i am left to wonder what we really have. Acting as if the serious shoulder injury and high ankle sprain didnt impact his ability to play the position is baffling to me.

I don't know what board you are reading, but the only person who is talking about the offensive line not being so awful that it gives him a total pass is...me.

Also, he's always been hurt in college and that trend didn't change in Denver. Why aren't we talking about how the guy is basically made of glass and eats puppies?

I can't think of too many people who were upset with TS being the starter last year - I certainly wasn't and I'm the guy who has the audacity to talk about TS in a way that isn't lovingly crafted and geareed toward his praises. If PL can't win out the job this year then I'm going to be really skeptical of his future in the league.

Jsteve01
04-08-2017, 05:23 PM
By all accounts the camp competition wasnt even close. Siemian was far better than the journeyman or the rookie. Want to know how to lose the confidence of your veteran roster who just happens to be coming off a super bowl win? Play the high draft pick over the guy who is doing the better job. Is Siemian the future? I have no idea but the consistent discount of the the impact that below average line play and run game had on the offense is something I cant wrap my head around. Then you add in the injuries and i am left to wonder what we really have. Acting as if the serious shoulder injury and high ankle sprain didnt impact his ability to play the position is baffling to me.

I don't know what board you are reading, but the only person who is talking about the offensive line not being so awful that it gives him a total pass is...me.

Also, he's always been hurt in college and that trend didn't change in Denver. Why aren't we talking about how the guy is basically made of glass and eats puppies?

I can't think of too many people who were upset with TS being the starter last year - I certainly wasn't and I'm the guy who has the audacity to talk about TS in a way that isn't lovingly crafted and geareed toward his praises. If PL can't win out the job this year then I'm going to be really skeptical of his future in the league. King I call bull. He had an acl in college and the injuries last year were more a result of horrid line play than him being a wuss. You've talked about his inability to push the ball. Well guess what. If you can't step up because the pocket is breaking down and you can't generate torque because you can't plant and you're off shoulder is basically falling off then yeah your velocity may suffer

King87
04-08-2017, 05:34 PM
King I call bull. He had an acl in college and the injuries last year were more a result of horrid line play than him being a wuss. You've talked about his inability to push the ball. Well guess what. If you can't step up because the pocket is breaking down and you can't generate torque because you can't plant and you're off shoulder is basically falling off then yeah your velocity may suffer

How many full seasons did he play in college? Because he tore his ACL as a senior, was a redshirt, etc. Did he not miss games due to injury in those other years? http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/trevor-siemian-1.html

Why else was he not starting?

I hate to break this to you, but even when he had time he was messing up the deep ball. Contrary to the narrative you'd like to push, every snap wasn't a sack, hit, QB pressure, etc. He was on the 24th ranked line - not the Texans line that protected David Carr.

Jsteve01
04-08-2017, 06:00 PM
Most the time you missed starts was not due to injury it was because he was splitting starts with Kain Colter. And he injured his non-throwing shoulder an injury which they later found out was b a grade 5 separation which is like your arm is falling out of the socket.

He sustained that injury in week 5 dude. So everything we saw for three-quarters of the season was a guy that was banged up. So no I'm not super surprised that he couldn't push the ball down the field when he couldn't generate torque with his off arm. You've been quick to point out all his deficiencies all while not acknowledging the impact that the injuries had on his ability to do what quarterbacks do whitch is make good throws. We're also not acknowledging the psychological impact that getting hit in the face all the time has on young quarterbacks.

King87
04-08-2017, 06:12 PM
Most the time you missed starts was not due to injury it was because he was splitting starts with Kain Colter. And he injured his non-throwing shoulder an injury which they later found out was b a grade 5 separation which is like your arm is falling out of the socket.

He sustained that injury in week 5 dude. So everything we saw for three-quarters of the season was a guy that was banged up. So no I'm not super surprised that he couldn't push the ball down the field when he couldn't generate torque with his off arm. You've been quick to point out all his deficiencies all while not acknowledging the impact that the injuries had on his ability to do what quarterbacks do whitch is make good throws. We're also not acknowledging the psychological impact that getting hit in the face all the time has on young quarterbacks.

So let me get this straight - he sucked in college and couldn't win the starting job. I'm sorry for assuming a guy who ended his college career with an injury and then started his professional career with multiplies was injury prone in tandem with him missing a lot of games. Now I know that he's been on a string on injuries and was pathetic in college. Thank you for correcting me.

When I read the scouting reports on TS some of them said he had a solid arm, others said otherwise. They all seemed to point out that he was poor on sideline throw, overthrew open WR's, and wasn't a great decision maker.

Well...all of those things were true for the entire season. Post and pre-injury.

He had a hurt non-throwing shoulder. He missed two games with a bad ankle and then he came back. He's going to have to learn to play through injuries. What's the old saying? After week eight everyone's hurt? He was cleared to play by the staff. If he wasn't healthy enough to be out there then that's not on him. If he was healthy enough to be out there then his play....is on him. They cleared him, right? If he can't get through a season with a line that's bad, he can't play in the NFL. Because I hate to break this to you, every QB who has been good has played with a bad line.

So maybe, it is possible, that he can be above average when healthy. But that's in doubt and it's in doubt that he can last a season.

King87
04-08-2017, 06:17 PM
I would rather see them develop the bigger, stronger armed more mobile kid. It's not about being impatient with Trevor Siemian. Of all the mistakes Kubiak made last year, that was his biggest. I think it's one of the reasons he isn't the coach anymore.

A lot of people made a big deal out of PL being raw and inexperienced, while using that defense to say he should have sat on the bench. They then turned around and used the inexperience argument to say that TS was either a rookie or basically a rookie 'omfg he's a first year staaaaaaaaaaaaaarter!'

PL had a similar completion percentage to TS. As an actual rookie. Who was raw and truly inexperienced. If they could go back in time I'd bet they'd just have let PL start.

Now PL gets a chance to be a little experienced, albeit slightly. He got to start. The offense seems to be built in a way that plays to his strengths, too. So, let's just hope that he can beat out TS, because it shouldn't be that hard. Lord knows if it's close VJ would be an idiot to not go with PL, too.

MOtorboat
04-08-2017, 06:19 PM
Do a quick comparison of Trevor's stats from last year vs. Brady's stats his second year in the league.

#GOAT

It also compares well to Marc Bulger, Derek Anderson, Aaron Brooks and Jeff Garcia.

Hawgdriver
04-08-2017, 06:32 PM
A lot of people made a big deal out of PL being raw and inexperienced, while using that defense to say he should have sat on the bench. They then turned around and used the inexperience argument to say that TS was either a rookie or basically a rookie 'omfg he's a first year staaaaaaaaaaaaaarter!'

PL had a similar completion percentage to TS. As an actual rookie. Who was raw and truly inexperienced. If they could go back in time I'd bet they'd just have let PL start.

Now PL gets a chance to be a little experienced, albeit slightly. He got to start. The offense seems to be built in a way that plays to his strengths, too. So, let's just hope that he can beat out TS, because it shouldn't be that hard. Lord knows if it's close VJ would be an idiot to not go with PL, too.

You training for the Trollympics, or what?

Jsteve01
04-08-2017, 06:34 PM
Most the time you missed starts was not due to injury it was because he was splitting starts with Kain Colter. And he injured his non-throwing shoulder an injury which they later found out was b a grade 5 separation which is like your arm is falling out of the socket.

He sustained that injury in week 5 dude. So everything we saw for three-quarters of the season was a guy that was banged up. So no I'm not super surprised that he couldn't push the ball down the field when he couldn't generate torque with his off arm. You've been quick to point out all his deficiencies all while not acknowledging the impact that the injuries had on his ability to do what quarterbacks do whitch is make good throws. We're also not acknowledging the psychological impact that getting hit in the face all the time has on young quarterbacks.

So let me get this straight - he sucked in college and couldn't win the starting job. I'm sorry for assuming a guy who ended his college career with an injury and then started his professional career with multiplies was injury prone in tandem with him missing a lot of games. Now I know that he's been on a string on injuries and was pathetic in college. Thank you for correcting me.

When I read the scouting reports on TS some of them said he had a solid arm, others said otherwise. They all seemed to point out that he was poor on sideline throw, overthrew open WR's, and wasn't a great decision maker.

Well...all of those things were true for the entire season. Post and pre-injury.

He had a hurt non-throwing shoulder. He missed two games with a bad ankle and then he came back. He's going to have to learn to play through injuries. What's the old saying? After week eight everyone's hurt? He was cleared to play by the staff. If he wasn't healthy enough to be out there then that's not on him. If he was healthy enough to be out there then his play....is on him. They cleared him, right? If he can't get through a season with a line that's bad, he can't play in the NFL. Because I hate to break this to you, every QB who has been good has played with a bad line.

So maybe, it is possible, that he can be above average when healthy. But that's in doubt and it's in doubt that he can last a season. oh sheesh. You do realize that Tom Brady split starts in college as well right? There have been many quarterback tandems at the Collegiate level.

And I completely agree that the great ones have had two sometimes contend with bad a line play. But typically they were given more than a year before people wrote them off as being scrubs.

King87
04-08-2017, 06:43 PM
When you have to cite to Tom Brady, the god of outliers, I lose confidence.

The great ones usually demonstrated that they had some ability. And, if our guy doesn't, as evidenced by everything that we know, why on earth would we want to give him a mulligan?

It's the continuation of logic, Steve. If the line and the injuries give him a free pass then we're essentially back to where we were last year. When I ask what his proponents think he did well, I'm told stuff like 'well he took care of the ball' which is fine...but that's not a baseline for anything. Plenty of GOOD QB's were not careful with the ball, and plenty of great ones were. So when it comes down to actually being good at the game, or showing flashes of it, or demonstrating his actual worth as a player...I get nothing.

So without any qualifiers, what is he good at?

Jsteve01
04-08-2017, 07:37 PM
Excellent point. What does he do well? I think he takes command of the offense and he has folks on both sides of the ball believing in him. I thing when given time and healthy he has a cool factor youre either born with or youre not.

Pull up his tape vs Notre Dame in college and youll see what I mean. They shouldn't have even been in that game and Trevor really threw them on his back against a very very good college defense and led Northwestern to the victory. They won their first bowl game and I think 17 years. And went to six consecutive bowls obviously he wasn't part of all of those but he was a part of three of them.

He's extremely accurate. He throws a very very catchable ball. And again go back and read the Chris wesseling article from the end of this season where he was talking about the fact that the defense had really started to buy into Trevor as their quarterback. It's pretty important to have your teammates believe in you

ShaneFalco
04-08-2017, 07:40 PM
cant find video of that notre dame game

MOtorboat
04-08-2017, 08:25 PM
Don't care one iota about one game in college, especially when I have a full season of NFL games I've seen him play.

Jsteve01
04-08-2017, 08:35 PM
Don't care one iota about one game in college, especially when I have a full season of NFL games I've seen him play. of course you dont. Nor do you care about the good games he had when healthy. I don't know when we started holding rookie quarterbacks who had zero running game and zero protection to such high standards but I find it laughable.

MOtorboat
04-08-2017, 08:39 PM
of course you dont. Nor do you care about the good games he had when healthy. I don't know when we started holding rookie quarterbacks who had zero running game and zero protection to such high standards but I find it laughable.

I loved the Cincinnati game. It was an outlier last year, however.

dogfish
04-08-2017, 08:47 PM
Joseph has taken a different view of the raw but talented Lynch, pointing to leadership, studying and understanding the offensive system as areas in need of improvement.

folks, if you didn't pay attention to this line, please read it again. . . it's been somewhat widely rumored that lynch hasn't shown great work habits, but to me this confirms it. . . when the head coach says your quarterback needs to improve his study habits, you have a massive problem. . . if a guy is just a slower learner, i have no problem waiting for him, as long as he's going at it as hard as he can-- some of these guys aren't rocket surgeons, and that's okay. . . but if he's not picking it up, and also not working as hard as he needs to, the chances of him ever developing are exceptionally poor. . . he has to know that TS is busting his ass-- if he's not willing to take his own work ethic up to that level, then he basically doesn't want to win, and is probably a lost cause. . . regardless of how much arm talent he has. . . there's absolutely still time for him, but it can't happen if he won't work to make it happen. . .

kingster and Moseph, i am sorry-- but get ready for another year of siemian. . .

MOtorboat
04-08-2017, 09:26 PM
folks, if you didn't pay attention to this line, please read it again. . . it's been somewhat widely rumored that lynch hasn't shown great work habits, but to me this confirms it. . . when the head coach says your quarterback needs to improve his study habits, you have a massive problem. . . if a guy is just a slower learner, i have no problem waiting for him, as long as he's going at it as hard as he can-- some of these guys aren't rocket surgeons, and that's okay. . . but if he's not picking it up, and also not working as hard as he needs to, the chances of him ever developing are exceptionally poor. . . he has to know that TS is busting his ass-- if he's not willing to take his own work ethic up to that level, then he basically doesn't want to win, and is probably a lost cause. . . regardless of how much arm talent he has. . . there's absolutely still time for him, but it can't happen if he won't work to make it happen. . .

kingster and Moseph, i am sorry-- but get ready for another year of siemian. . .

I'm aware Lynch was not ready and have not been advocating for him. Denver is already losing more pieces to a great defense, with Siemian as the quarterback, I just can't expect the offense to make up for that decline. I'm sorry I'm not sunshine and rainbows about him.

Elway has now completely whiffed on two top-round quarterbacks, fwiw.

ShaneFalco
04-08-2017, 09:36 PM
good news is that elway struck gold on his 7th round QB

HORSEPOWER 56
04-08-2017, 09:55 PM
I find it interesting that Joseph has opinions, other than tape, on either guy. How many practices have they had? Workouts? OTAs? Mini-camps? Hell, the coaches really aren't even allowed to talk to the players other than, "hi, how are ya?" This time of year. So if all the things he's said are based on tape, then so be it. I guess he knows if guys are in the facility working out or studying the playbook, but it's a little early to brand someone a hard worker, leader, or scrub at this stage.

The bottom line in all of this TS vs PL talk is simply that we need to see more from both. Neither showed that they really are a guy to commit the future of the franchise to, yet. The difference that King, Slick, MO and I (aka those not in the Siemian fan club yet) is that we got to see Siemian in 14 games and Lynch in 2. We all saw the hot mess the future SB runner up (ATL) made Lynch look like in his 2nd start and everyone said "not ready" (including me). But we all also saw the stinkers that Siemian served up. Late in the season vs KC for instance when he looked worse than Lynch ever had after only 2 weeks earlier playing well against that same team.

Also, why does Siemian get a pass for playing behind a shit O-line, but the O-line doesn't for playing in front of a new QB? I actually believe that the Oline last year was better than the one that won the Super Bowl. Not "good" by any means, but better at least at the Tackles. There's no way you'll convince me that Ryan Harris, Chris Clark, and Schofield are better than Okung and Stephenson. Perhaps the line play seemed worse because there wasn't a Peyton Manning back there recognizing blitzes and making protection checks or getting rid of the ball quickly when he knew a blitz was on. Just a thought.

Nomad
04-08-2017, 09:57 PM
I find it interesting that Joseph has opinions, other than tape, on either guy. How many practices have they had? Workouts? OTAs? Mini-camps? Hell, the coaches really aren't even allowed to talk to the players other than, "hi, how are ya?" This time of year. So if all the things he's said are based on tape, then so be it. I guess he knows if guys are in the facility working out or studying the playbook, but it's a little early to brand someone a hard worker, leader, or scrub at this stage.

The bottom line in all of this TS vs PL talk is simply that we need to see more from both. Neither showed that they really are a guy to commit the future of the franchise to, yet. The difference that King, Slick, MO and I (aka those not in the Siemian fan club yet) is that we got to see Siemian in 14 games and Lynch in 2. We all saw the hot mess the future SB runner up (ATL) made Lynch look like in his 2nd start and everyone said "not ready" (including me). But we all also saw the stinkers that Siemian served up. Late in the season vs KC for instance when he looked worse than Lynch ever had after only 2 weeks earlier playing well against that same team.

Also, why does Siemian get a pass for playing behind a shit O-line, but the O-line doesn't for playing in front of a new QB? I actually believe that the Oline last year was better than the one that won the Super Bowl. Not "good" by any means, but better at least at the Tackles. There's no way you'll convince me that Ryan Harris, Chris Clark, and Schofield are better than Okung and Stephenson. Perhaps the line play seemed worse because there wasn't a Peyton Manning back there recognizing blitzes and making protection checks or getting rid of the ball quickly when he knew a blitz was on. Just a thought.

I would say Coach Joseph is getting the briefing from John Elway, and echoing it to the media.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-08-2017, 10:06 PM
I find it interesting that Joseph has opinions, other than tape, on either guy. How many practices have they had? Workouts? OTAs? Mini-camps? Hell, the coaches really aren't even allowed to talk to the players other than, "hi, how are ya?" This time of year. So if all the things he's said are based on tape, then so be it. I guess he knows if guys are in the facility working out or studying the playbook, but it's a little early to brand someone a hard worker, leader, or scrub at this stage.

The bottom line in all of this TS vs PL talk is simply that we need to see more from both. Neither showed that they really are a guy to commit the future of the franchise to, yet. The difference that King, Slick, MO and I (aka those not in the Siemian fan club yet) is that we got to see Siemian in 14 games and Lynch in 2. We all saw the hot mess the future SB runner up (ATL) made Lynch look like in his 2nd start and everyone said "not ready" (including me). But we all also saw the stinkers that Siemian served up. Late in the season vs KC for instance when he looked worse than Lynch ever had after only 2 weeks earlier playing well against that same team.

Also, why does Siemian get a pass for playing behind a shit O-line, but the O-line doesn't for playing in front of a new QB? I actually believe that the Oline last year was better than the one that won the Super Bowl. Not "good" by any means, but better at least at the Tackles. There's no way you'll convince me that Ryan Harris, Chris Clark, and Schofield are better than Okung and Stephenson. Perhaps the line play seemed worse because there wasn't a Peyton Manning back there recognizing blitzes and making protection checks or getting rid of the ball quickly when he knew a blitz was on. Just a thought.
I believe his recent comments were based from tape he's been watching of Siemian.

King87
04-09-2017, 01:53 AM
Regardless of TS, I love you guys.

dogfish
04-09-2017, 02:59 AM
I'm aware Lynch was not ready and have not been advocating for him.

yea, i know. . . when i posted that, it wasn't a barb directed at you and king vonster. . . that was actually, legitimately me commiserating with you guys because i know you hate watching trevor QB the broncos, and i pretty much think y'all is up against it once again. . .

and it's not like i'm real thrilled about it, either. . . i suspect that you are correct. . . the duke to this point looks to be 0-2 on his QB picks. . . really good GMs have survived worse, so it's no thing. . . those guys are hard to find. . . it does leave us in a bit of a tough spot if it is in fact the case, though. . .






you and my man king better hope that you were wrong about trevor, and the extent that the injuries affected his ability to do things like move around, and deliver the intermediate and deeper throws with precision. . . :coffee:


:defense:

King87
04-09-2017, 03:45 AM
Why would I hope that I'm wrong. Dude, if TS was actually the guy he'd go down as one of the best draft picks of all time, let alone Denver history. He just hasn't actually demonstrated anything noteworthy as a player, and he's considerably undertalented. Talent tends to win. Not every good player is a great talent, but TS could have gone undrafted. And his college career was legitimately bad.

He was bad last year - the only way his season looks good is if you go 'first year starter stopgap guy...and that's admitting he's not even close to being a QB of the future.

But, I do know that sometimes I am a little frustrated with him and it boils over and into my posts, so I am sorry.

Northman
04-09-2017, 06:55 AM
Also, why does Siemian get a pass for playing behind a shit O-line, but the O-line doesn't for playing in front of a new QB?

He doesnt and no one has said he doesnt.



I actually believe that the Oline last year was better than the one that won the Super Bowl. Not "good" by any means, but better at least at the Tackles. There's no way you'll convince me that Ryan Harris, Chris Clark, and Schofield are better than Okung and Stephenson. Perhaps the line play seemed worse because there wasn't a Peyton Manning back there recognizing blitzes and making protection checks or getting rid of the ball quickly when he knew a blitz was on. Just a thought.

Actually i can help out here. No, the line last year was not better than in 2015, thats not speculation but proof based upon their ranking following last year. I know you like to think you know more than the team but the stats simply dont back up your opinion. Furthermore, Manning played absolutely DREADFUL the year we won the SB. DREADFUL. I dont think i can make it any clearer, DREADFUL. Like beyond TS bad if you want to use that as a comparison. The one thing that Manning had going for him that Siemian didnt was experience and leadership. But that comes with time for any QB. Without the defense in 2015 we dont win shit. Its that simple.

I cant tell you why Lynch cant out play TS, but when two separate HC's say that Siemian is still the best man to start i have to trust their judgement that they know what they are talking about. Im just a fan who watches games on TV and dont actually work for the organization so if you have a bone to pick with why Lynch isnt starting take it up with them.

Jsteve01
04-09-2017, 08:30 AM
Why would I hope that I'm wrong. Dude, if TS was actually the guy he'd go down as one of the best draft picks of all time, let alone Denver history. He just hasn't actually demonstrated anything noteworthy as a player, and he's considerably undertalented. Talent tends to win. Not every good player is a great talent, but TS could have gone undrafted. And his college career was legitimately bad.

He was bad last year - the only way his season looks good is if you go 'first year starter stopgap guy...and that's admitting he's not even close to being a QB of the future.

But, I do know that sometimes I am a little frustrated with him and it boils over and into my posts, so I am sorry.

I love the Duke. But I have to admit that the Kizla l piece a few weeks ago questioning if players came to Denver because of Manning or Elway has some legitimate points.

We can argue Trevor preseason all we want we won't really know what we have until the end of training camp and even into the season. But I will agree with MO and say that Elway and staff have whiffed on a bunch of players. And it really comes down to player evaluation. I mean literally every time they drafted someone recently it seems like there was someone better on the board I'm not picking bones with with Paxton last year honestly. Because everybody had him rated highly period and everyone acknowledged that it would take a little bit of time for him develop.

But I'll tell you what when you trade up in the third round to a Ronnie Hillman and you got Robert turbin and Lamar Miller on the board that tells me there's something wrong with your evaluation process. When you pass on Eddie Lacy's medical to draft Montee Ball who can't even get a job in the league any longer, that tells me you've got an evaluation problem.
I realize all of this stuff is subjective. Elway seems to have done pretty well in free agency. But you can't expect everyone to be a Derek Wolfe or Chris Harris. In all honesty he robbed those guys. And I love talking about the fact that they're so loyal only took Hometown discounts. Those guys are so far underpaid it's ridiculous. So we went out and we paid Ware fair market we went out we paid Talibe fair market Ward most people would say we got at a discount. Other than that from all accounts with the top-tier free agents that we pursue we've been insulting them.

Obviously those of you who know me from my years as a poster on this board know that I'm typically pretty positive. The recent Trend I have to say is alarming. I can't think of a big-name free agent in the past few years that we won the battle on. And the main reason is that Elway's amazing poker-playing ability has also seemingly turned into a guy with a pretty big ego who puts an offer on the table that may not be fair market and says take it or leave it. At some point when you're not winning Super Bowls we don't have a future Hall of Fame quarterback I don't think that schtick works with today's player.

And King I know I don't interact with you all that often. I've been totally intermittent in my posting in the past few years, but I really do enjoy your takes. I just like to argue.

I've been really right about things Broncos over the years I've been really really wrong. My whole thing with Trevor is that I can see the intangibles that made him appealing to the staff and still make him appealing to the staff. I think he's an underrated athlete and if he can stay healthy he actually has a pretty decent arm and throws a fantastic Ball. But I'm not at all saying that I'm completely convinced that he's a lockdown pick for quarterback of the future I'm just less sure about his deficiencies than you are.

King87
04-09-2017, 11:50 AM
I love the Duke. But I have to admit that the Kizla l piece a few weeks ago questioning if players came to Denver because of Manning or Elway has some legitimate points.

We can argue Trevor preseason all we want we won't really know what we have until the end of training camp and even into the season. But I will agree with MO and say that Elway and staff have whiffed on a bunch of players. And it really comes down to player evaluation. I mean literally every time they drafted someone recently it seems like there was someone better on the board I'm not picking bones with with Paxton last year honestly. Because everybody had him rated highly period and everyone acknowledged that it would take a little bit of time for him develop.

But I'll tell you what when you trade up in the third round to a Ronnie Hillman and you got Robert turbin and Lamar Miller on the board that tells me there's something wrong with your evaluation process. When you pass on Eddie Lacy's medical to draft Montee Ball who can't even get a job in the league any longer, that tells me you've got an evaluation problem.
I realize all of this stuff is subjective. Elway seems to have done pretty well in free agency. But you can't expect everyone to be a Derek Wolfe or Chris Harris. In all honesty he robbed those guys. And I love talking about the fact that they're so loyal only took Hometown discounts. Those guys are so far underpaid it's ridiculous. So we went out and we paid Ware fair market we went out we paid Talibe fair market Ward most people would say we got at a discount. Other than that from all accounts with the top-tier free agents that we pursue we've been insulting them.

Obviously those of you who know me from my years as a poster on this board know that I'm typically pretty positive. The recent Trend I have to say is alarming. I can't think of a big-name free agent in the past few years that we won the battle on. And the main reason is that Elway's amazing poker-playing ability has also seemingly turned into a guy with a pretty big ego who puts an offer on the table that may not be fair market and says take it or leave it. At some point when you're not winning Super Bowls we don't have a future Hall of Fame quarterback I don't think that schtick works with today's player.

And King I know I don't interact with you all that often. I've been totally intermittent in my posting in the past few years, but I really do enjoy your takes. I just like to argue.

I've been really right about things Broncos over the years I've been really really wrong. My whole thing with Trevor is that I can see the intangibles that made him appealing to the staff and still make him appealing to the staff. I think he's an underrated athlete and if he can stay healthy he actually has a pretty decent arm and throws a fantastic Ball. But I'm not at all saying that I'm completely convinced that he's a lockdown pick for quarterback of the future I'm just less sure about his deficiencies than you are.

All I'm saying is that Lynch played on par with TS in the few games he played. They had the same damn completion percentage. PL was actually the rookie. I guess I can't fathom how anyone can be high on TS and low on PL - there is one exception in regards to the rumors that PL is lazy. Then PL can get bent!

I get the Lamar Miller thing. Turbin and Hillman have similar numbers, but to your point Hillman was a trade we made, and Turbin has been as good. I'm not mad at Elway for passing on Lacy at all. He's had a good two years, maybe a season and a half for his career, and he's always overweight. Montee Ball seems to have been out of the league not for talent issues, but for always being drunk. I'm more upset with the digging into a guy's past than I am at the talent evaluation.

We have stopped paying free agent's at a premium - I would have loved to have gotten Campbell, but we would have had to pay him several millions more a season to make up the different (no income tax in Florida), but I know why we didn't pull the trigger on him. We signed the best guard to hit the free agent market in years, so there is that. We don't have the cap space to be able to pick up a stud FA every season. In order to do that you have to have a lot of interchangeable parts that are cheap, ala New England.

As to your point about our approach - I get it. We might have to offer the typical or normal contracts. On the other hand, there have been times that we have. I think it's been more about cap room than anything else. This year it seemed like we were always bidding with the intent to pay off our 'cap loans' or whatever you would call it. I would be interested to know how badly that impeded us, or the context around it.

TS has some athleticism. His arm is average. It doesn't have the zip to hit the deep sideline throw. He also overthrows far too many WR's on the deep ball - and that is indicative of putting your entire arm into it. One of our posters, Al Wilson 4 Mayor, has argued in the past that he thinks its a mechanical issue. My response to that is I've heard that argument for every single QB in the league who has arm strength issue. Mechanics can always get better, and it does definitely matter. However, your arm is your arm. He seems to have done alright in the department of the middle of the field throws. Those ones he can put some zip on. I'm not sure why the zip on a seam route is harder than the zip on a deep out - it's strange. But it's not just the lack of physical ability that worries me.

Compare him to Carson Wentz for a second - Wentz started on fire and then cooled off. But at least in certain points he looked like a monster. Even at the end of the year, after coming back down to earth, and then cooling off, he still finished with a good completion percentage. But you saw him demonstrate why he was drafted so highly. He looked like the freak that he is. Dak Prescott is a guy who was put in a perfect situation. However, when you show that much poise, you can't take anything away from him - he was also really good at protecting the ball. You saw who he was in the sense of his ability.

Then look at TS. Tell me when he showed anything? Two games? Against Cincinnati he went ham. Against the chiefs he also went ham. And then the rest of the time he was either average or he sucked. Now all year long the response was 'he's a first year starter and a seventh rounder'. And in that sense he did fine - but I'm judging him on the basis of being a full time starter. So if he's going to be a game manager, that doesn't work. Our defense is going to get worse. It's going to age a bit. We've lost some starters. We haven't fixed the DL enough to feel like teams can't run on us, and we could use another LB to help in that regard as well. We lost some corner depth. We're weakish everywhere except OLB.

And that means TS is going to have do more. He can't just be a game manager - he has to be an actual asset to the offense. So what did anyone see last year that indicates he can do that? The seventh rounder argument doesn't work anymore. You can either do it or you can't, and if you have to make projections on it you go off of what he did last year. And let's also be honest - in most of his big games it was more about the WR's going off than TS. Look at that Bengals game - one WR beat double coverage by three steps and the red zone TD the defender was late to his assignment.

And that brings me to the next point about TS - he is truly shit awful in the red zone. And if anyone ever bothered to read his scouting reports he sucked at that in college, too. There is patter here: if he does have arm strength he can't seem to hit tight windows on the sideline passes or in the redzone. So game perspective time - you're trailing and you need to manage the clock. Those deep out plays are your go to option. If you get to the red zone and you have to throw it in you're at a disadvantage because just about every option requires that tight throw

It's the little things that matter - and it baffles me that his proponents want to give him credit for the little things like intangibles. So sure, if he gets a better arm or improves upon his mechanics and parlays that into an improvement on his massive weaknesses then he might be alright. But it pains me to know that I'm going to watch a seventh rounder get two years starter time to be groomed.

King87
04-09-2017, 11:52 AM
Excellent point. What does he do well? I think he takes command of the offense and he has folks on both sides of the ball believing in him. I thing when given time and healthy he has a cool factor youre either born with or youre not.

Pull up his tape vs Notre Dame in college and youll see what I mean. They shouldn't have even been in that game and Trevor really threw them on his back against a very very good college defense and led Northwestern to the victory. They won their first bowl game and I think 17 years. And went to six consecutive bowls obviously he wasn't part of all of those but he was a part of three of them.

He's extremely accurate. He throws a very very catchable ball. And again go back and read the Chris wesseling article from the end of this season where he was talking about the fact that the defense had really started to buy into Trevor as their quarterback. It's pretty important to have your teammates believe in you

He takes command of the offense in what way? I don't care if people believe in him. Belief doesn't mean you complete passes. What does he do well as a player?

DenBronx
04-09-2017, 01:09 PM
I really don't think you're are going to change anyones mind. The majority...HUGE majority of Bronco fans think Siemian is good enough to be our starting QB. Elway thinks that, the coaches think that....hell....almost everyone on sports radio thinks that too.

King87
04-09-2017, 01:12 PM
I really don't think you're are going to change anyones mind. The majority...HUGE majority of Bronco fans think Siemian is good enough to be our starting QB. Elway thinks that, the coaches think that....hell....almost everyone on sports radio thinks that too.

It's a message board. The huge majority? I don't think it's a huge majority on this site. Elway drafted TS and then drafted Paxton Lynch. Elway moved up and traded for PL. I think it's more logical to assume Elway thinks TS is a stopgap than the actual future starter.

What are the coaches supposed to say? Bury him? I also don't care a lot about sports radio guys. There's a poster who cites to them all the time and god damn do they same some truly ignorant shit.

Hawgdriver
04-09-2017, 01:39 PM
Elway drafted TS and then drafted Paxton Lynch. Elway moved up and traded for PL. I think it's more logical to assume Elway thinks TS is a stopgap than the actual future starter.

If you recall, he drafted PL before he had the information that TS would make a jump after his rookie year, win camp, and have a reasonable first year starting. It is not more logical to assume Elway thinks TS is a stopgap at this point on the grounds that he moved up to draft PL.

King87
04-09-2017, 01:43 PM
I disagree. If that was the case there wouldn't be the competition. It would just be TS' unchallenged job.

Hawgdriver
04-09-2017, 09:35 PM
I disagree. If that was the case there wouldn't be the competition. It would just be TS' unchallenged job.

This makes no sense. Do you mean for this upcoming season?

King87
04-09-2017, 09:59 PM
This makes no sense. Do you mean for this upcoming season?

Yeah.

NightTerror218
04-09-2017, 10:42 PM
Anyone know if siemian can participate this week when offseason program kicks in?

If not huge bonus for paxton that vance and mccoy get to see him first.

slim
04-10-2017, 08:19 AM
It also compares well to Marc Bulger, Derek Anderson, Aaron Brooks and Jeff Garcia.

All aboard!!!

MasterShake
04-10-2017, 11:21 AM
I don't know, as a fan I see this as a win win. We have 2 young QB's, one of which we know is starter ready and is being paired with Mike McCoy in a new offense that won't be so stubborn not to use his talents. I think Paxton still has a bigger ceiling athletically, but for now we need a smarter QB who won't cost us games while they learn. Paxton will have his shot, but in the meantime we have a guy who did a hell of a lot better than I thought he would under center. I do worry about his durability, but when he was healthy last season he was really good for what is essentially a rookie. If the season goes to crap and Paxton is not the starter, we can always put him in for some game experience at the end of the year. Regardless of who starts though I don't think it matters unless the O-Line gels or gets better magically. I already miss football enough that I'm as naive and excited about next season no matter what! :lol:

King87
04-10-2017, 12:59 PM
All aboard!!!

On Friday you were starting the Lynch train. I love you.

slim
04-10-2017, 01:16 PM
On Friday you were starting the Lynch train. I love you.

Trains are slow to start rolling and hard to stop!

slim
04-10-2017, 01:18 PM
All I'm saying is that Lynch played on par with TS in the few games he played. They had the same damn completion percentage. PL was actually the rookie. I guess I can't fathom how anyone can be high on TS and low on PL - there is one exception in regards to the rumors that PL is lazy. Then PL can get bent!

I get the Lamar Miller thing. Turbin and Hillman have similar numbers, but to your point Hillman was a trade we made, and Turbin has been as good. I'm not mad at Elway for passing on Lacy at all. He's had a good two years, maybe a season and a half for his career, and he's always overweight. Montee Ball seems to have been out of the league not for talent issues, but for always being drunk. I'm more upset with the digging into a guy's past than I am at the talent evaluation.

We have stopped paying free agent's at a premium - I would have loved to have gotten Campbell, but we would have had to pay him several millions more a season to make up the different (no income tax in Florida), but I know why we didn't pull the trigger on him. We signed the best guard to hit the free agent market in years, so there is that. We don't have the cap space to be able to pick up a stud FA every season. In order to do that you have to have a lot of interchangeable parts that are cheap, ala New England.

As to your point about our approach - I get it. We might have to offer the typical or normal contracts. On the other hand, there have been times that we have. I think it's been more about cap room than anything else. This year it seemed like we were always bidding with the intent to pay off our 'cap loans' or whatever you would call it. I would be interested to know how badly that impeded us, or the context around it.

TS has some athleticism. His arm is average. It doesn't have the zip to hit the deep sideline throw. He also overthrows far too many WR's on the deep ball - and that is indicative of putting your entire arm into it. One of our posters, Al Wilson 4 Mayor, has argued in the past that he thinks its a mechanical issue. My response to that is I've heard that argument for every single QB in the league who has arm strength issue. Mechanics can always get better, and it does definitely matter. However, your arm is your arm. He seems to have done alright in the department of the middle of the field throws. Those ones he can put some zip on. I'm not sure why the zip on a seam route is harder than the zip on a deep out - it's strange. But it's not just the lack of physical ability that worries me.

Compare him to Carson Wentz for a second - Wentz started on fire and then cooled off. But at least in certain points he looked like a monster. Even at the end of the year, after coming back down to earth, and then cooling off, he still finished with a good completion percentage. But you saw him demonstrate why he was drafted so highly. He looked like the freak that he is. Dak Prescott is a guy who was put in a perfect situation. However, when you show that much poise, you can't take anything away from him - he was also really good at protecting the ball. You saw who he was in the sense of his ability.

Then look at TS. Tell me when he showed anything? Two games? Against Cincinnati he went ham. Against the chiefs he also went ham. And then the rest of the time he was either average or he sucked. Now all year long the response was 'he's a first year starter and a seventh rounder'. And in that sense he did fine - but I'm judging him on the basis of being a full time starter. So if he's going to be a game manager, that doesn't work. Our defense is going to get worse. It's going to age a bit. We've lost some starters. We haven't fixed the DL enough to feel like teams can't run on us, and we could use another LB to help in that regard as well. We lost some corner depth. We're weakish everywhere except OLB.

And that means TS is going to have do more. He can't just be a game manager - he has to be an actual asset to the offense. So what did anyone see last year that indicates he can do that? The seventh rounder argument doesn't work anymore. You can either do it or you can't, and if you have to make projections on it you go off of what he did last year. And let's also be honest - in most of his big games it was more about the WR's going off than TS. Look at that Bengals game - one WR beat double coverage by three steps and the red zone TD the defender was late to his assignment.

And that brings me to the next point about TS - he is truly shit awful in the red zone. And if anyone ever bothered to read his scouting reports he sucked at that in college, too. There is patter here: if he does have arm strength he can't seem to hit tight windows on the sideline passes or in the redzone. So game perspective time - you're trailing and you need to manage the clock. Those deep out plays are your go to option. If you get to the red zone and you have to throw it in you're at a disadvantage because just about every option requires that tight throw

It's the little things that matter - and it baffles me that his proponents want to give him credit for the little things like intangibles. So sure, if he gets a better arm or improves upon his mechanics and parlays that into an improvement on his massive weaknesses then he might be alright. But it pains me to know that I'm going to watch a seventh rounder get two years starter time to be groomed.

That is a lot of words.

King87
04-10-2017, 01:18 PM
Trains are slow to start rolling and hard to stop!

Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-CHOO-CHOO!!!

King87
04-10-2017, 01:19 PM
That is a lot of words.

Jsteve said he wanted to argue with me. I didn't want to let the man down.

slim
04-10-2017, 01:22 PM
Jsteve said he wanted to argue with me. I didn't want to let the man down.

#thatboydead

Jsteve01
04-10-2017, 03:35 PM
That is a lot of words.

Jsteve said he wanted to argue with me. I didn't want to let the man down. lol i just enjoy debating this stuff. I did for moment think that perhaps i was reading someone else's post. It is rather long. So to summarize as im on mobile and lazy, your position is ts sucks. He is horrid in the red zone and limited athletically. His leadership and intangibles are non qualifiers.

King87
04-10-2017, 03:37 PM
lol i just enjoy debating this stuff. I did for moment think that perhaps i was reading someone else's post. It is rather long. So to summarize as im on mobile and lazy, your position is ts sucks. He is horrid in the red zone and limited athletically. His leadership and intangibles are non qualifiers.

His lack of physical talent will always stop him from being an elite QB. He's always going to be more of a game manager than anything else. He's on the Alex Smith side of the QB spectrum.

MasterShake
04-10-2017, 03:40 PM
Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-Chugga-CHOO-CHOO!!!

10435

MOtorboat
04-10-2017, 03:42 PM
His lack of physical talent will always stop him from being an elite QB. He's always going to be more of a game manager than anything else. He's on the Alex Smith side of the QB spectrum.

He's wicked smaht, tho.

King87
04-10-2017, 03:46 PM
He's wicked smaht, tho.

Maybe he can parlay that into great use but I doubt it - in college, from what I've read, he wasn't that careful with the ball. I blame some of that on him not getting to start consistently - but then again you could just win the damn competition.

slim
04-10-2017, 04:39 PM
10435

He should change his name to Thomas.

Buff
04-10-2017, 04:48 PM
That is a lot of words.

I am more likely to get struck by lightning than I am to read that post.

Valar Morghulis
04-10-2017, 04:48 PM
He should change his name to Thomas.

Why, does he drop too many balls and play like someone half his size with half his talent?

King87
04-10-2017, 05:02 PM
Why, does he drop too many balls and play like someone half his size with half his talent?

I just want you to know that the facts aren't with you on this. Also, you make me sad.

Buff, go **** yourself.

Nomad, for hi-fiving Buff's post I hope you stub your toe, twice.

MOtorboat
04-10-2017, 06:46 PM
Why, does he drop too many balls and play like someone half his size with half his talent?

List of players since the merger to have more catches, receptions and touchdowns by age 29:
Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Marshall, Randy Moss, Andre Johnson, Tony Gonzalez, Calvin Johnson, Antonio Brown, Torry Holt, Herman Moore, Sterling Sharpe, Andre Reed, Andre Rison.

That's 12 for those of you counting. What a bum.

slim
04-10-2017, 06:48 PM
Why, does he drop too many balls and play like someone half his size with half his talent?

No, because I think he will work hard to please Sir Topham Hatt.

Jsteve01
04-10-2017, 08:40 PM
And that after playing with Orton and Tebow and three consecutive seasons of sub par passing offense. Trevor Siemian though did provide a spark ;)

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-10-2017, 08:43 PM
List of players since the merger to have more catches, receptions and touchdowns by age 29:
Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Marshall, Randy Moss, Andre Johnson, Tony Gonzalez, Calvin Johnson, Antonio Brown, Torry Holt, Herman Moore, Sterling Sharpe, Andre Reed, Andre Rison.

That's 12 for those of you counting. What a bum.

It looks like a whose who list of all pros

King87
04-10-2017, 09:10 PM
It looks like a whose who list of all pros

DT is no more drop prone than most elite WR's. He had exceptional hands this last year - this stands in contrast to the asinine standards of a ball touching his fingertips on a ball thrown two yards over his head...or damn near thrown into the ******* dirt.

Dude is one of the best WR's in the game and one of the most well rounded, too. When people go 'he has bad drops,' or 'he doesn't live up to his talent/contract/doesn't do enough for the team they're being absurd.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-10-2017, 10:45 PM
DT is no more drop prone than most elite WR's. He had exceptional hands this last year - this stands in contrast to the asinine standards of a ball touching his fingertips on a ball thrown two yards over his head...or damn near thrown into the ******* dirt.

Dude is one of the best WR's in the game and one of the most well rounded, too. When people go 'he has bad drops,' or 'he doesn't live up to his talent/contract/doesn't do enough for the team they're being absurd.

Agreed

slim
04-10-2017, 10:59 PM
Agreed

Unagreed

MOtorboat
04-10-2017, 11:15 PM
Slim, can you do me a favor?

Valar Morghulis
04-11-2017, 01:32 AM
I knew that post would provide an interesting riposte from mo and king

#DTLIVESMATTER

MOtorboat
04-11-2017, 01:53 AM
I knew that post would provide an interesting riposte from mo and king

#DTLIVESMATTER

It's all good Val. We know you're not that stupid.

Valar Morghulis
04-11-2017, 01:57 AM
It's all good Val. We know you're not that stupid.

I just wish he would dive more!

King87
04-11-2017, 02:07 AM
I just wish he would dive more!

Snorkeling is even better!

MOtorboat
04-11-2017, 02:21 AM
I just wish he would dive more!

Good grief, Dave.

Northman
04-11-2017, 04:33 AM
I knew that post would provide an interesting riposte from mo and king

#DTLIVESMATTER

It is fun watching MO's and VK's heads explode whenever that topic comes up. lol

King87
04-11-2017, 11:33 AM
It is fun watching MO's and VK's heads explode whenever that topic comes up. lol

Some arguments are so stupid and baseless that they must be ridiculed. I do it for the message board, North. It's why I'm #thegreatestposteralive

MOtorboat
04-11-2017, 11:56 AM
Some arguments are so stupid and baseless that they must be ridiculed. I do it for the message board, North. It's why I'm #thegreatestposteralive

My Play Index search is still up on my browser today. A reminder that Dave's stupidity wasted 15 minutes of my life yesterday. For my sake Dave, don't do it.

slim
04-11-2017, 12:07 PM
Unagreed

No.

King87
04-11-2017, 12:40 PM
My Play Index search is still up on my browser today. A reminder that Dave's stupidity wasted 15 minutes of my life yesterday. For my sake Dave, don't do it.

The DT hate is the message board equivalent of believing the earth is flat. 'He has too many drops!' - nope he's on par with most of his peers in that regard. 'He doesn't play up to his talent' - nope he's been producing at a high, and elite level, for quite some time.

slim
04-11-2017, 12:44 PM
Slim, can you do me a favor?

What's up, pussycat?

MOtorboat
04-11-2017, 12:49 PM
What's up, pussycat?

I want you to get on the ThomasTrain.

slim
04-11-2017, 01:05 PM
I want you to get on the ThomasTrain.

I already am!

King87
04-11-2017, 01:06 PM
I already am!

But are you on the Von Kinger train!??!?!!?

slim
04-11-2017, 01:10 PM
But are you on the Von Kinger train!??!?!!?

I am riding that caboose into the ground!

Northman
04-11-2017, 05:24 PM
Oh everyone is pulling a train on VK.

slim
04-11-2017, 05:57 PM
Oh everyone is pulling a train on VK.

Choo-choo!!

King87
04-11-2017, 06:46 PM
Oh everyone is pulling a train on VK.

No!!!!!!!!

Hawgdriver
04-11-2017, 06:55 PM
No!!!!!!!!

Too late, that train has departed.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-11-2017, 08:08 PM
No.

There's so much to like here:

1. No one is really certain what the hay you're talking about
2. You quoted yourself and yet it's still indiscernible
3. A two letter word followed by a period adds a certain air of finality; well done.

dogfish
04-11-2017, 10:50 PM
Oh everyone is pulling a train on VK.

#OhLawd
#ThatBoyDead

King87
04-11-2017, 10:52 PM
#OhLawd
#ThatBoyDead

I taught a whole message board how to style and this is how I'm repaid!?!?!??!


I'm proud of you bitches.

Jsteve01
04-11-2017, 11:08 PM
dt physically gifted. and it's no wonder that Emmanuel Sanders is now having the best years of his career playing opposite that guy. then to top it off the dude's not a diva . boy I hate him

MOtorboat
04-11-2017, 11:19 PM
All aboard the ThomasTrain!

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r250/clapton_2/Thomas%20Train_zps2y9bl3rv.png

King87
04-11-2017, 11:28 PM
That man was basically the offense last year.

Valar Morghulis
04-12-2017, 01:11 AM
That man was basically the offense last year.

Explains why it was so inept

King87
04-12-2017, 01:33 AM
Explains why it was so inept

DT is a lousy QB.

Valar Morghulis
04-12-2017, 01:46 AM
DT is a lousy QB.

Probably, he should try and find a position where he is good

Northman
04-12-2017, 04:28 AM
DT is so bad he couldnt catch a cold.

Northman
04-12-2017, 04:29 AM
Explains why it was so inept

Lmao,

oh snap.

Valar Morghulis
04-12-2017, 04:29 AM
DT is so bad he couldnt catch a cold.

I won't trust him to hold a baby

dogfish
04-12-2017, 11:00 AM
I won't trust him to hold a baby

:lol::lol: