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Cugel
03-10-2017, 05:42 PM
Another pretty interesting rant by former Bronco great Mark Schlereth on 104.3 The Fan today. I'm not going to comment much, except to say that I think he's pretty much right on. The Broncos blew getting a worthy LT replacement because Elway misjudged the market - thinking he could either re-sign Russell Okung to around $8M a year deal, or find another LT in FA. Well, Russell got $13M, and that's about the going rate now with the constant increases in the salary cap. Now all the top FA LTs have signed with other teams and the Broncos are once again, for the 3rd straight year, making do with some patchwork OL (Maybe Donald Stephenson? Some other FA scrub? )


Mark Schlereth clears the air: (http://1043thefan.com/category/podcast_player/?a=10011570&sid=1149&n=Schlereth%20and%20Evans)
MS: “There a few big things going on here. The trade for Tony Romo is right around the corner. There a bunch of “also-ran” offensive linemen that the Broncos need to sign. How about that?

Mike Evans: “OK. What is your reaction to what went down with Romo yesterday? What happened to “doing right by Tony Romo?” Now Jerry is sitting back and saying: “well. . . . I might just play this out and get Houston or Denver to panic. “

MS: “I think that’s exactly what happened. But, I don’t think it was Jerry who was thinking “let’s see if we can get Houston or Denver to panic. I think it was Houston or Denver that panicked and made a phone call. I think Jerry Jones was going to do right by Tony Romo and all of a sudden one of these teams couldn’t hold their water. They couldn’t hold their water! They had to make the call. It was either one or the other and by the looks of what happened with Brock Osweiler in Houston I think it was probably Houston who called.

And that sent the whole thing into a tailspin where Jerry Jones said “whoa, whoa, whoa. I was going to release Tony because I didn’t think I could get any value for him. But now all of a sudden. . . . .somebody’s in a tizzy in Houston. Dumped the $72 M QB they signed.

ME: “Have your odds of landing Tony Romo changed at all? From
what to what?”

MS: “I think yesterday they were 70-30 to get Tony Romo, now I think it completely flipped. And I think this is all due to the Broncos mis-reading the market.

ME: “How so?”

MS: “Russell Okung. You don’t want to pay Russell Okung. You end up cutting him. You could have had him at $11 M a year. You misread the market. Did they not mis-read the market on C.J. Anderson? Did they not misread the market on Von Miller? This is them mis-reading the market again! I know he’s not the best LT out there. But, he’s much better than anything you’ve got! And better than anything that is on the FA market as we speak. You misread the market and didn’t want to pay him $11M? Well, he got $13M a year with the Chargers.

ME: “He will end up getting $33M for 2 years guaranteed. $8M a year from the Broncos, and $25M guaranteed from the Chargers. Not bad.

MS: “So, this is you misreading the market. I know we’ve talked about the hard line John Elway establishes. And “hey, in John we trust” and “he’s been a hard line guy.” You know what? You know what that “home town discount” was? Guys willing to take a little bit less? It wasn’t John Elway. It was to come play with Peyton Manning. You’re going to take a bit of a discount to come play with Petyon Manning because you’re going to win 12 games a year and have a chance to win a championship.

When Justin Houston signed that $100M contract, whatever it was to play for the Kansas City Chiefs a couple of years ago, Big Al said ‘go give Von $1 more than Justin Houston and ask him ‘will you sign it?’ Instead Von holds out. Von gets just ridiculous money. Von sets the market. You could have given him just a few $ more than Justin Houston and got him for a lot less money. And you knew the guy was an All-Pro every year. Again, I think Elway misread this market once again.

I understand you don’t want to pay A+ money for C+ players. I get that. But, you know what? That’s the world you live in? And now do you know what you are going to do? You know what’s left now? You’re going to start paying B+ money for D- players. That’s the next step.

In free agency, unless you sign guys a year early, before their contract is up, you’re not finding C+ players at C+ money. B players for B money.

Evans: “You said the odds of getting Tony Romo declined significantly. What will it take to land him and how far should the Broncos go? Could there be another OL signing today? I can tell you, according to my spies – Menelik Watson is in town to meet with the Broncos. The Raiders T, three years in the league, has started 17 games in 3 years. Hasn’t exactly been the most reliable or durable player. He’s played 5, 12, and last year just 10 games.

ME: "Tell me about Menelik Watson?

Schlereth: “There’s an old saying in football. The best ability is availability. We talk about continuity on the OL? It’s hard to develop continuity when you’re counting on a player who can never line up consistently. I understand injuries Mike. I was injured my whole career. But, you know what? I lined up and played injured. For the most part I just didn’t miss a lot of time. Menelik Watson, I think he played 5 games his rookie year. He was out in 2015. And he played 10 games last year. I think he’s a pretty good player. He’s a 2nd round pick, he’s young & raw, but a pretty good player. I watched him a bunch last year. But, how much can you rely on him?

I like Ronald Leary. I think he’s a good player. He’s definitely an upgrade at the G pos. for the Broncos. And he’s a former team-mate for Tony Romo. But, you’re trying to sign a veteran QB who is an elite player who has played 5 games in the last 2 years. And you’re trying to give him confidence that he’s going to be protected by signing Menelik Watson? Who played 17 total starts in 3 years?

I always worry about guys who are 100%ers. “I can’t line up if I’m not 100%.” That scares me. That’s not how this game operates. You gotta play hurt, you have to play injured. So, it’s a scary proposition. “Hey, Tony! You know you said it’s important to have a good offensive line. Here you go! A guy who can’t answer the bell very often. “

The reason I feel like they’re going to be in second place in this bidding war, is because of this dramatic move. Maybe the most dramatic move in the history of FA. You sign a Qb to a 4 year, $72 M contract, a year ago. And you didn’t give him away – you gave a 2nd rounder with him just to get him out of the door. Crazy! Unprecedented. And in doing that you freed up $16M in cash & $10M in cap space.

ME: “IT still comes down to ‘what’s more attractive for Tony Romo? Denver or Houston?”

MS: “But, that’s where I’m getting to. Now they’ve freed themselves up in the most historic deal in the history of FA. Since 1992 there’s never been anything like this. And by far they have a better offensive line. And Tony Romo said that it was a priority to go somewhere where he had a chance to win a championship, and be protected. The OL was big in his mind. I like going out and getting a G. But, you don’t have a LT! None!

In my mind, I know Russell Okung wasn’t great, but a lot of his issues were technique issues. He stayed healthy. He proved he could stay healthy for a year. You clean up the technical issues with your new coaching staff, and maybe he is an $11 M player?

You know. At this point in the game, an $11M LT is a bargain! If you’re not going to re-sign Russell Okung, you better already have a deal done with Whitworth. Doesn’t even look like you talked to Whitworth? What the hell was your plan here? You released him and thought you were going to get him to re-sign for $8? In this market??? The Chargers paid $13.3 M a year for Russell Okung. And you could have had him for $11M a year. He was under contract. He was under contract, Mike! For the next 4 years.

You let him go. And you tried to negotiate down with him. You talk about totally misreading the market! Like, I know he’s not great. But I ask you this. Is he better than anything that’s on the Free Agent market right now? Is he better than Menelik Watson? Yes. Is he better than Kelvin Beachum? Yes. Hell, Matt Kalil signed for $55M ! Matt Kalil, since his rookie year he hasn’t blocked anybody! I watched Kalil play, and Mike, he looks scared to me. I mean, SCARED to play. He got $55M? Matt Kalil signed in Carolina. Matt Kalil has STUNK since his rookie year, and I mean STUNK. He hasn’t blocked anybody . No one. Have you watched the Minnesota Vikings play. He couldn’t block ME and I am an Old Fart!

ME: “Five years, $55M, $25M guaranteed.

MS: “He sucks. I’ll just lay it out there. The dude SUCKS! And he got $55M. And you thought you were going to get Russell Okung for $8.5 M a year? You had him at $11? He signed for $13+ M a year? John misread the market.

ME: “I think this is as animated and agitated as I’ve seen you in the year+ we’ve worked together.

MS: “I wanted them to get Tony Romo. I did.”

ME: “Your odds of them getting Tony Romo flipped in your mind because they didn’t address the offensive line?

MS: “Yes. If I’m Tony Romo, and I’m looking at Duane Brown, the LT for the Houston Texans, he’s a really good player, and I’m looking at what the Broncos have at LT, NOTHING. And it’s a choice between Stephenson, Michael Schofield, and Ty Sambrailo? I’m thinking “do I want to have a chance to stay upright? Or do I want to break every bone in my body? I’ll take the chance to stand upright. I’m going to Houston.”

I think both the Texans and Broncos showed their hands. We always talk about keeping it close to the vest? Well they both showed their desperation to have Tony Romo as a QB. And now, it’s a bidding war. IT’s trade value. Highest bidder. I don’t know how much say Tony Romo has about where he goes, but the answer is ‘yes.” Yes. More so the Texans than Broncos , but yesterday there was talk the Broncos were shopping Trevor Siemian to the Jets. So, you know you’ve shown your hand. You showed “we don’t believe in the kid we drafted in the first round. We don’t believe he’s ready yet. We need a QB. Tony Romo’s our guy. And the Texans – for them it’s “we’re getting rid of the guy we spent $72M on last year. We’re going after Tony Romo.

ME: “Did Elway make a mistake in not picking up Okung’s Option? “

MS: “In Retrospect, yes. When you released him and by John Elway’s admission there, they were still looking at Russell Okung, well the market for a decent LT – you KNOW as the salary cap goes up by another $15M it’s going to cost more. IT’s a corner stone position Mike. Pass rushing DE, QB, LT, CB, those things are corner stone positions. You know the market is going to rise. The big question about Russell Okung was “can he stay healthy.” And he did. I know he struggled some last year. He gave up a lot of pressures. But, in my mind a lot of those were a lack of technique coming off injury riddled seasons where has not played with great technique. But, he’s still athletic. I think the technique can be coached, and I think that was one of the reasons that Gary Kubiak and that staff are no longer here – because the coaching wasn’t good enough. So, you let go a guy who has the potential to be pretty good at the LT position, at least better than what you’ve got by a large margin, go because you didn’t want to pay him more than below market value. That’s misreading the market.

CoachChaz
03-10-2017, 05:50 PM
Hard to argue with Stink on this one

Cugel
03-10-2017, 06:04 PM
Hard to argue with Stink on this one

Pretty much this. I didn't particularly want Tony Romo here because I liked to see what we could develop with Siemian & Lynch and I don't really believe the Broncos are rolling into Foxborough in January for the AFC Championship game with Tony Romo and going on to the SB anyway. But, I admit Romo gives you a chance.

If.
He.
Can.
Stay.
Healthy.

And that requires a really good offensive line, and that requires an elite LT. That's a corner stone position. Lots of positions you can get by with mediocre talent. The Broncos inside LBs are not All-Pros, but they do all right.

But, not at LT. You need your LT to be one of the most athletic guys on your offense. In this division with Joey Bosa, Justin Houston, and Kalil Mack you need both your T's to be top quality pass-protectors. Now Russell wasn't that by a long shot. But, Mark has a point. You can coach technique. You can't coach athleticism.

I am 5'10". No matter how great coaching I got I could never play college football, let alone in the NFL, not remotely enough size or athleticism. It's just hard to find guys who are 6'7", 300 lbs. and can MOVE - in short, a really good LT. Many such athletes play basketball where they can make more money and not get hurt nearly as much.

Well, we'll see what Elway comes up with. My guess is some scrub who has a bad injury history or underachieved at his last team and they think maybe with a fresh start and some better coaching he can exceed expectations. That's where we are now at LT I think. Maybe the draft will find a long term answer - a developmental LT who in 2 or 3 seasons will be ready to start and excel at LT. Who knows if there is such a player in this crappy LT draft?

Slick
03-10-2017, 06:11 PM
I don't blame John for not paying Okung.

I know he's said we want to win from now on but that just isn't possible. It's going to take a while to fix that o line and it's going to come at the expense of other positions.

You want a great o line like Dallas? It took them years.

Nomad
03-10-2017, 06:24 PM
I stand by my 'In Elway I trust', but this year will be a telling year, as Coach alluded to in another thread. But then, can we make a judgment call off this year, because of new coaching & such. I do agree with Stink.

I always give shit to my Supervisor, because he played oline with Stink at Service HS here in Anchorage, and ask 'what happened to you'?

Nomad
03-10-2017, 06:26 PM
I don't blame John for not paying Okung.

I know he's said we want to win from now on but that just isn't possible. It's going to take a while to fix that o line and it's going to come at the expense of other positions.

You want a great o line like Dallas? It took them years.

As that 'new guy' posted in his trade proposal......would you trade DT & picks for an All-Pro lineman?

LawDog
03-10-2017, 06:34 PM
This is one of those threads that you come back to in October 2017 and again in October 2018 and see how things went. Was Schlereth correct or did he just not understand what the process was?

Slick
03-10-2017, 06:37 PM
As that 'new guy' posted in his trade proposal......would you trade DT & picks for an All-Pro lineman?

I would not. This team needs more playmakers at skill positions not less.

Nomad
03-10-2017, 06:41 PM
I would not. This team needs more playmakers at skill positions not less.

Agreed. :) Though DT can frustrate one on gameday (at times), I like him as a BRONCO.

Cugel
03-10-2017, 06:59 PM
I don't blame John for not paying Okung.

I know he's said we want to win from now on but that just isn't possible. It's going to take a while to fix that o line and it's going to come at the expense of other positions.

You want a great o line like Dallas? It took them years.

Dallas sucked, so they could wait. They weren't even making the playoffs for years. Remember all those years the Giants beat them out in week 17 and they watched the playoffs on TV? Denver has maybe 2 more years with this stellar defense. So, any year they just PUNT instead of fixing the OL is another year wasted!

And they can't afford to waste any more years, not if they are serious about getting back to the SB.

If this was a mediocre team, then fine. No need for Tony Romo. Just play Siemian or Lynch, start a bunch of draft picks on your OL, and cross your fingers. If it takes 2 or 3 years, well so what? You're like the Jets who aren't going anywhere in their division anyway.

That is NOT the situation with Denver. It's WIN NOW BABY! Because there is no tomorrow. There's no guarantee you can find another elite QB anytime in the next ten years. It took 13 seasons between the retiring of John Elway and signing Peyton Manning during which the Broncos won 1 playoff game. So, whatever chance they have to win another SB any time soon depends on getting really GOOD play from their Offense -- BEFORE your defense falls apart through age, injury, retirement or FA. Romo gives them a chance at that for the next couple of seasons. But, I don't think he's signing here.

Houston has clearly decided to out-bid the Broncos for Romo, just like they did for Osweiler and now they have $16M to throw at him. Plus, Houston has a pretty good OL and Denver has NOBODY at LT!

I don't want to go through that again. They need to get this OL Fixed ASAP. And because of Elway's misreading of the FA market that is clearly not going to happen this off-season.

Jsteve01
03-10-2017, 07:04 PM
We need to do a better job of evalutating collegiate and FA talent. This isn't just an Elway thing. It feels like Sanders is the only truly impact FA that John's signed or drafted on that side of the ball since Sanders and before that it was Vasquez. Not sure why we do so well picking defensive talent and so poorly across the board on offense talent.

Hawgdriver
03-10-2017, 07:06 PM
As that 'new guy' posted in his trade proposal......would you trade DT & picks for an All-Pro lineman?

In 0 heartbeats.

Wait..."picks"? Define.

And All-Pro is the critical feature. JT is a monster LT. He has more career AV than DT. He is the stronger factor in team success. Love DT...but measures are measures.

Cugel
03-10-2017, 07:09 PM
This is one of those threads that you come back to in October 2017 and again in October 2018 and see how things went. Was Schlereth correct or did he just not understand what the process was?

That's a good point. But, what could the "process" actually be in this context? You're not going to find a starting LT in the draft - not this season anyway. So, that leaves FA. Only they just screwed up and failed utterly to get a top flight LT in FA. Now they are down to scrounging through the bargain basement bin for some guy they think was "under-utilized" or got a bad rep for injury (like Okung) and hope he can stay healthy and play at a higher level than for his former team.

LT is a VERY athletic position. You can't just throw a warm body in there and call it a day. Not unless you want Justin Houston or Kalil Mack to tear your QB's head off. Notice that the Chargers just gave Russell Okung $13.3M a year.

You think the prospect of having to block Von Miller two games a year had anything to do with that? Yup. They paid him average starting LT money, and are hoping to coach him up into an elite LT. That's a damn sight better than starting some scrub like Donald Stephenson, some bust like Ty Sambrailo, or an oft-injured journeyman like Watson at LT. Not in this division where every other team has an elite pro-bowl pass-rusher or two.

Nomad
03-10-2017, 07:13 PM
In 0 heartbeats.

Wait..."picks"? Define.

And All-Pro is the critical feature. JT is a monster LT. He has more career AV than DT. He is the stronger factor in team success. Love DT...but measures are measures.

Not sure about picks. The person had a 2017 2nd round pick.

I've always been a believer you build teams with strong lines on both sides and go from there . But, I believe the Joe Thomas wishlist was last year, plus I've grown to like DT.

Hawgdriver
03-10-2017, 07:13 PM
some bust like Ty Sambrailo

Probably true but injuries are the deal...I'll call it after this year.

Cugel
03-10-2017, 07:22 PM
Probably true but injuries are the deal...I'll call it after this year.

The problem with Ty Sambrailo was always that his repeated injuries prevented him from getting in the weight room and adding the muscle mass he needed to play LT in the NFL. He's far behind his projected development curve and nothing indicates he's going to suddenly blossom into the player they hoped when they drafted him. He's a bust. DMac doesn't think he'll make the team.

I don't know about that, but they certainly aren't starting him at LT suddenly after him not making the field at all in 2016. At best they keep him on the roster, his shoulder is good enough to lift, and he gets better over the course of the season and shows enough for him to stay on the team. Then maybe, maybe in 2018. But, all that is a pipe dream probably. Most likely he's a guy who just didn't pan out due to injury. That happens.

MOtorboat
03-10-2017, 07:29 PM
I think he judged it accurately. I wouldn't have re-signed Okung at $11 million and I wouldn't have asked him back for $13.

Cugel
03-10-2017, 07:33 PM
I think he judged it accurately. I wouldn't have re-signed Okung at $11 million and I wouldn't have asked him back for $13.

Fine. Now that you've finished turning up your nose at Okung, what's the solution? Cause all the best LT FAs are now signed with other teams. Get used to it. You might not think that he's "worth" $13M a year, but so what? That's the market rate. They all got around that much. Every year the salary cap goes up, and LT is a premier position. THE premier position on the offense behind only QB.

If you don't want to pay it, then you have to draft a LT and then develop him into an elite player. Well, the Broncos didn't do that so they are forced to go out in FA and sign somebody. And that means overpaying. They don't have time to draft a guy and develop a LT for the next 3 seasons. This defense is aging and needs to win NOW.

MOtorboat
03-10-2017, 07:35 PM
Fine. Now that you've finished turning up your nose at Okung, what's the solution? Cause all the best LT FAs are not signed with other teams. Get used to it. You might not think that he's "worth" $13M a year, but so what? That's the market rate.

If you don't want to pay it, then you have to draft a LT and then develop him into an elite player. Well, the Broncos didn't do that so they are forced to go out in FA and sign somebody. And that means overpaying. They don't have time to draft a guy and develop a LT for the next 3 seasons. This defense is aging and needs to win NOW.

We'll find out, won't we. It's day two of the league year.

Cugel
03-10-2017, 07:37 PM
We'll find out, won't we. It's day two of the league year.

True. The Broncos could always find a way to trade for a LT, but that probably means giving up at least a first round pick, or a starting player + a first rounder. Especially now that teams know the Broncos are desperate. (And, no they are not getting Joe Thomas. )

MOtorboat
03-10-2017, 07:38 PM
True. The Broncos could always find a way to trade for a LT, but that probably means giving up at least a first round pick, or a starting player + a first rounder. Especially now that teams know the Broncos are desperate. (And, no they are not getting Joe Thomas. )

Panic at the Disco!

MOtorboat
03-10-2017, 07:46 PM
Did people really think that Elway was going to snap his fingers and an All-Pro would sign?

Denver paid Okung to be a turnstile and now he's getting more money than Denver was paying him and we're freaking out that Denver didn't pay him that ridiculous amount?

Nomad
03-10-2017, 07:51 PM
Did people really think that Elway was going to snap his fingers and an All-Pro would sign?

Denver paid Okung to be a turnstile and now he's getting more money than Denver was paying him and we're freaking out that Denver didn't pay him that ridiculous amount?

Not really. Who's freaking out?

MOtorboat
03-10-2017, 07:53 PM
Not really. Who's freaking out?

OP clearly is.

BroncoWave
03-10-2017, 08:55 PM
I do think it's fair to say that Elway has misjudged the market on a couple of guys, CJ being the main one last year. I'm not gonna freak out over it, but it has happened.

Jaded
03-10-2017, 09:28 PM
The reason the Broncos have a healthy cap situation is because they don't pay more than what they think a player is worth.

If the P*triots did this exact same thing (they do all the time, btw) these same ******* people would be licking their asses from gooch to trampstamp.

Y'all should ask Stink to meet you over in the P*triots thread to toss some cheater salad.

Edit:

Btw, I hope the visual I just painted is as sickening to you as P*triot Envy is to me.

BroncoWave
03-10-2017, 09:54 PM
The reason the Broncos have a healthy cap situation is because they don't pay more than what they think a player is worth.

If the P*triots did this exact same thing (they do all the time, btw) these same ******* people would be licking their asses from gooch to trampstamp.

Y'all should ask Stink to meet you over in the P*triots thread to toss some cheater salad.

Edit:

Btw, I hope the visual I just painted is as sickening to you as P*triot Envy is to me.

Elway had to way overpay CJ because he mis-tendered him last year.

turftoad
03-10-2017, 09:59 PM
Elway had to way overpay CJ because he mis-tendered him last year.

We don't know that yet. Running back take a beating. They get hurt. Not many play every game of the season.

Northman
03-10-2017, 10:04 PM
I think we did overpay CJ but at the time there really wasnt much else out there and he was one of the few bright spots we had the year before. But Turf has a point, in this day and age RB's take a huge beating even guys like AP.

Jaded
03-10-2017, 10:20 PM
Elway had to way overpay CJ because he mis-tendered him last year.

I agree in the sense that the Broncos might've/could've/probably felt they could've got a 2nd round pick by letting Anderson walk.

Cap was tight last year and the tender was to let the market set Anderson value. Same with Ware and Okung this year, the Broncos are letting the market determine what they're worth..

WARHORSE
03-10-2017, 10:37 PM
Easy to talk Schlereth. All I gotta say is in this business there are no guarantees on draft picks no matter how good you scout. But your effectiveness shows over time.

Elway has shown himself to be a STUD when it comes to making his decisions. Anyone heard of Brock "Cleveland" Osweiler? John gets to decide where he values each player at, its his job. And hindsight is 20/20. Schlereth is a tool for talking smack about the great one.

We got it Mark........go talk about the Patriots.

In Elway we trust.

CoachChaz
03-10-2017, 10:41 PM
Easy to talk Schlereth. All I gotta say is in this business there are no guarantees on draft picks no matter how good you scout. But your effectiveness shows over time.

Elway has shown himself to be a STUD when it comes to making his decisions. Anyone heard of Brock "Cleveland" Osweiler? John gets to decide where he values each player at, its his job. And hindsight is 20/20. Schlereth is a tool for talking smack about the great one.

We got it Mark........go talk about the Patriots.

In Elway we trust.

Remember Elway also offered Oz 16m per year.

HORSEPOWER 56
03-10-2017, 10:44 PM
I don't blame John for not paying Okung.

I know he's said we want to win from now on but that just isn't possible. It's going to take a while to fix that o line and it's going to come at the expense of other positions.

You want a great o line like Dallas? It took them years.

Right on. They also built their Oline through the DRAFT. Jerrah actually showed restraint and didn't chase shiny objects like Manziel. This Oline needs to be fixed properly. Ignore the shiny objects like McCaffrey, Fournette, OJ Howard, etc and draft Oline. First round, second round, third round - wherever you find the value. Take reliable guys, not just the most flashy prospect.

Leary was a solid FA pickup, but we can't fix all the Oline woes in FA or we'll end up like we did last year with Okung and Stevenson and be worse off than we were. Throwing as ass whack of $ at a 35+ year old Olineman who was good when he was younger and is now serviceable isn't the answer, either.

Just build and develop through the draft, John. We, the fans, can wait a little longer to do it right.

Northman
03-10-2017, 10:48 PM
Yea, it was later discovered that John did offer Oz close to what Houston paid him so that was disappointing when that got reported. But thankfully we dodged that bullet.

King87
03-10-2017, 11:16 PM
Remember Elway also offered Oz 16m per year.

Who knows what Oz does in the same system, with better skill players, with better offensive coaching? We also didn't know that Oz was a ***** ass shithoe then.

Jaded
03-10-2017, 11:23 PM
$16 MM was what the Broncos thought Brent was worth in Denver, in Kubiak's system, with a team that knows/liked/respected him. I dont assume that Brent is the flop he was in Houston if he makes the smart decision.

Northman
03-10-2017, 11:34 PM
$16 MM was what the Broncos thought Brent was worth in Denver, in Kubiak's system, with a team that knows/liked/respected him. I dont assume that Brent is the flop he was in Houston if he makes the smart decision.

The sad thing is Brent thought that O'Briens system was better for him.

King87
03-10-2017, 11:40 PM
The sad thing is Brent thought that O'Briens system was better for him.

Self-styling is the worst styling.

Jaded
03-10-2017, 11:41 PM
The sad thing is Brent thought that O'Briens system was better for him.

Well tbf, the Broncos results on offense last year don't exactly make Brent look stupid for choosing Houston. Maybe he was talking about the OL when he said that.

It's just my opinion, he made the wrong choice.

Valar Morghulis
03-11-2017, 01:27 AM
We also didn't know that Oz was a ***** ass shithoe then.

I did, i always hated him. Except for about one hour during the pats game.

King87
03-11-2017, 01:29 AM
I did, i always hated him. Except for about one hour during the pats game.

Impressive.

BroncoWave
03-11-2017, 01:57 AM
Dave don't **** around.

King87
03-11-2017, 02:24 AM
Dave don't **** around.

True.

You can change your avatar if you want.

I'm going to keep mine until Romo has a new team. Thank you for the solidarity.

WARHORSE
03-11-2017, 02:38 AM
Remember Elway also offered Oz 16m per year.


True, but we dont know how it was structured, etc,etc. He had a price set for what Oz was at the time and he didnt balk. His decision saved us some heartache.

BroncoWave
03-11-2017, 11:03 AM
True.

You can change your avatar if you want.

I'm going to keep mine until Romo has a new team. Thank you for the solidarity.

I was proud to stand with you, brother.

Nomad
03-11-2017, 11:14 AM
The sad thing is Brent thought that O'Briens system was better for him.

What's with Cutler and the cat? Bring Emma back. :D

Northman
03-11-2017, 11:22 AM
What's with Cutler and the cat? Bring Emma back. :D


Shes taking a nap.

Cugel
03-11-2017, 11:49 AM
Remember Elway also offered Oz 16m per year.

Yup. Elway went all in on Osweiler, completely dropped his "I'm not over-paying for a guy who hasn't proved it yet" attitude in the final negotiations. I'm not saying he panicked, but his "bottom-line-take-it-or-leave-it, no really, really last ditch offer" was $13M a year, $26 M guaranteed. And the Texans just blew that out of the water, by offering $16M. And then the Broncos matched that.

Only to watch the Texans immediately hit the ball back into the Broncos court by offering $18M a year. And their owner publicly stated they were prepared to go still higher if Denver refused to fold. "We were prepared to do whatever we had to do to get our guy." They would have gone to $19M if the Broncos hadn't blinked.

And now they're doing it again. And they can afford to do so, because Romo really is the last missing piece for them. They screwed up before, because Manning wanted to go to Houston in 2012, only Kubiak didn't want him. Kubes (at the time) believed he had the "long term answer" in Matt Shaub, who had gone to the Pro-Bowl the year before. SO, he rejected even meeting with Manning, who went to Denver instead. Then they watched Denver scoop up Kubiak after they fired him, and win another SB.

They are more determined than ever to get ahead of the Broncos. Whether that works out, who knows? If the reports from former Dallas players are accurate, he's 100% healthy right now, and looks like the "old Tony Romo." The elite top 10 QB.

How long will that last once they start hitting him? Who knows? But, I wouldn't just blithely assume he's going to be hurt. Maybe. But, maybe not too. They have a much better OL than Denver does, and that matters.

Northman
03-11-2017, 11:55 AM
They screwed up before, because Manning wanted to go to Houston in 2012, only Kubiak didn't want him. Kubes (at the time) believed he had the "long term answer" in Matt Shaub, who had gone to the Pro-Bowl the year before..


Not according to this,


In a quote at the end of Tania Ganguli's story on ESPN.com (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11326919/houston-texans-open-putting-franchise-tag-jj-watt) about J.J. Watt's future in Houston, Texans owner Bob McNair brought up Manning and his free agency in 2012.
"Some people said, why didn't you sign Peyton Manning?" McNair said. "Well, we just couldn't do it. We would have had to let go of two or three of our outstanding players to create enough room in the salary cap to do something with him. Those are the decisions you have to make as you go forward. You hope you make the right decision."

Cugel
03-11-2017, 11:59 AM
Right on. They also built their Oline through the DRAFT. Jerrah actually showed restraint and didn't chase shiny objects like Manziel. This Oline needs to be fixed properly. Ignore the shiny objects like McCaffrey, Fournette, OJ Howard, etc and draft Oline. First round, second round, third round - wherever you find the value. Take reliable guys, not just the most flashy prospect.

Leary was a solid FA pickup, but we can't fix all the Oline woes in FA or we'll end up like we did last year with Okung and Stevenson and be worse off than we were. Throwing as ass whack of $ at a 35+ year old Olineman who was good when he was younger and is now serviceable isn't the answer, either.

Just build and develop through the draft, John. We, the fans, can wait a little longer to do it right.

You can't fix the OL by just throwing Draft picks at it. Dallas built their OL piece by piece over a period of 4 years. Do you want to wait four years to compete? Just imagine Denver finishing 3rd or 4th in the division and missing the playoffs for the next 3 seasons?

How much angst will there be among the fans by then? Just wasting this historically great defense!

Their superbowl chance is RIGHT NOW! Not three years from now, when they won't have Aquib Talib or TJ Ward. When this will be a totally different defense. The longer you get away from the historically great 2015 defense, it's not going to get better!

Did the '86, '87 Bears defense get better? They never went back to the SB! The same thing is true for the 2000 Ravens, & the 2002 Bucs. None of them repeated with the same coaches or defenders. (Ray Lewis was the only Raven from the 2000 roster left in 2012).

If they waste even 1 more year it may be too late. And there's zero guarantee that by the time the offense is ready to compete again, the defense will be even a top 5 defense. They have a lot more holes than they did last season, when their run defense sucked.

They admitted as much when they were willing to give Calais Campbell $13M a year -- only to see this:


"Calais Campbell signed a 4 year, $60,000,000 contract with the Jacksonville Jaguars, including $30,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $15,000,000."

The Broncos weren't even close. Like Stink says "Money talks and B.S. walks." You can say they "overpaid" but now the Broncos failed to secure a DT. They should have concentrated on Chris Baker instead of Campbell.

I honestly can't figure out how they thought they would ever land Campbell in the first place. He was obviously looking for a big pay-day, and when a player wants to get paid, they go to Jacksonville. That's the team that paid Zane Beadles $6M a year, and just gave Malik Jackson $15M a year. So, $15M a year to Campbell? Why not? They have room under the cap.

So, he's overpaid? Compared to what? The Broncos are paying their QBs combined less than $2M a year. They should have the money to sign a veteran LT and a veteran NT or DE!

Cugel
03-11-2017, 12:10 PM
Not according to this,

Ok, that's new. I was going off of what Schlereth and other former players were saying. I think you're right and the commentators are wrong. Manning wanted to go to Houston, but they could not free up the cap space.

But, remember that Elway & Kubiak were so eager to run Manning out of town and get to "the Age of the Brock" that they wouldn't bring Manning back to finish his career in 2016. Only to see Osweiler give them the big middle finger and leave town anyway.

They would have been better off keeping Manning! And before you say "he was washed up" he wasn't washed up. He was injured. He tore his foot tendon and you can't throw with a torn tendon in your foot. He would have been healed up from that injury before the start of the 2016 season.

Now the Broncos preferred to move on because they weren't confident he could stay healthy, and because they wanted to have Osweiler as their starter.

Well, we saw that their confidence in Osweiler was totally misplaced. Just one year after the Texans got him, they were willing to give up a 2nd round pick just to unload his contract and hustle him out of town. As of right now he's a complete bust.

So, Elway passed on the really GREAT QB from the 2012 draft class - Russell Wilson, to groom that stiff Osweiler, who turned out to be a total failure. And then he passed on Dak Presscott in favour of Paxton Lynch, who sucks so bad, they can't start him in his second season and they have to turn to Tony Romo. And even if Romo doesn't come to town, Trevor Siemian is way ahead of him as a starter.

Only he's not exactly looking like a world beater out there. More like the second coming of Kyle Orton - "exceeds expectations guy" which is a nice report card to get about your middle-schooler, but not exactly a ringing endorsement of Trevor Siemian. Not in a conference with Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger and Andrew Luck.

Elway's not looking exactly like a great QB draft guru is he?

Cugel
03-11-2017, 12:24 PM
Meanwhile, the Patriots just continue to lap the field in FA:


This week, no NFL figure has operated at the dizzying pace of Bill Belichick, who can't seem to stop flipping high-profile trades. Receiver Brandin Cooks, defensive end Kony Ealy and tight end Dwayne Allen join an already loaded Patriots roster thanks to wild draft-pick maneuvering in the last three days. As if that weren't enough, New England is giving cornerback Stephon Gilmore $14 million per year.

Do you see why some Denver fans are deeply disgruntled when you see the Patriots making one block-buster deal after another while the Broncos try and fail, try and fail to land FA after FA.

They tried to get Calais Campbell, but they weren't really close. They were waiting eagerly for Tony Romo only to see the Texans sprint ahead of them. They sat waiting patiently while affordable LTs like Reilly Reiff went elsewhere. They missed out on Chris Baker, missed out on landing a starting veteran DE.

They tried and miserably failed to re-sign Russell Okung to a lower cap figure only to see him get over $1M more a year than the contract they refused to honor.

And, very likely, they will try and fail to land Tony Romo, only to see him go off to lead the Texans, for a lot more money than they were willing/able to offer - and or/ the Texans offer Dallas a draft pick. I have ZERO confidence John Elway will "get it done" to land Romo. Houston is just a much more attractive landing spot for him than Denver with their screwed up OL.

Meanwhile, because they were holding open about $14 M on their cap just in the increasingly unlikely case Romo condescends to join them, they failed to land a DT, a DE or a top tier LT.

Oh, yeah, and as of right now, unless they add somebody else, that awesome Stud Donald Stephenson is their starting RT.*



*Truth in Advertising Disclaimer: Donald Stephenson was not actually an "awesome stud" at RT in 2016.

Northman
03-11-2017, 12:38 PM
But, remember that Elway & Kubiak were so eager to run Manning out of town and get to "the Age of the Brock" that they wouldn't bring Manning back to finish his career in 2016. Only to see Osweiler give them the big middle finger and leave town anyway.

They werent "eager" to dump him. They were concerned with his injury and age that paying him the amount of money they were that it would hinder them long term. This is why Manning eventually took the pay cut with the incentives.


They would have been better off keeping Manning! And before you say "he was washed up" he wasn't washed up. He was injured. He tore his foot tendon and you can't throw with a torn tendon in your foot. He would have been healed up from that injury before the start of the 2016 season.

There was talk that Manning was hiding how hurt he really was in 2014. There is also talk that Fox kept putting him out there when they shouldnt have been. Neither of those situations have anything to do with Elway.


Now the Broncos preferred to move on because they weren't confident he could stay healthy, and because they wanted to have Osweiler as their starter.

It was pretty evident that Manning was done, which is why he retired because he knew it wasnt going to get any better, but he got a ring so he is fine.


Well, we saw that their confidence in Osweiler was totally misplaced. Just one year after the Texans got him, they were willing to give up a 2nd round pick just to unload his contract and hustle him out of town. As of right now he's a complete bust.

Yep, they misjudged Oz just like i did when we drafted him. It happens, even to the best GM's.


So, Elway passed on the really GREAT QB from the 2012 draft class - Russell Wilson, to groom that stiff Osweiler, who turned out to be a total failure. And then he passed on Dak Presscott in favour of Paxton Lynch, who sucks so bad, they can't start him in his second season and they have to turn to Tony Romo. And even if Romo doesn't come to town, Trevor Siemian is way ahead of him as a starter.

A lot of teams passed on Wilson, he went in the third so its not like he was rated as a great prospect. It actually still remains to be seen if Wilson can actually carry a team and not the other way around. He's benefited a lot from the great running attack they have and the defense.



Elway's not looking exactly like a great QB draft guru is he?

If every QB was decided as either great or horrible after one year every "draft" guru would be considered questionable. But by all means, keep trashing the guy. I mean, he only helped bring another championship to Denver which is nothing i guess.

MOtorboat
03-11-2017, 01:18 PM
Meanwhile, the Patriots just continue to lap the field in FA:

Do you see why some Denver fans are deeply disgruntled when you see the Patriots making one block-buster deal after another while the Broncos try and fail, try and fail to land FA after FA.

They tried to get Calais Campbell, but they weren't really close. They were waiting eagerly for Tony Romo only to see the Texans sprint ahead of them. They sat waiting patiently while affordable LTs like Reilly Reiff went elsewhere. They missed out on Chris Baker, missed out on landing a starting veteran DE.

They tried and miserably failed to re-sign Russell Okung to a lower cap figure only to see him get over $1M more a year than the contract they refused to honor.

And, very likely, they will try and fail to land Tony Romo, only to see him go off to lead the Texans, for a lot more money than they were willing/able to offer - and or/ the Texans offer Dallas a draft pick. I have ZERO confidence John Elway will "get it done" to land Romo. Houston is just a much more attractive landing spot for him than Denver with their screwed up OL.

Meanwhile, because they were holding open about $14 M on their cap just in the increasingly unlikely case Romo condescends to join them, they failed to land a DT, a DE or a top tier LT.

Oh, yeah, and as of right now, unless they add somebody else, that awesome Stud Donald Stephenson is their starting RT.*



*Truth in Advertising Disclaimer: Donald Stephenson was not actually an "awesome stud" at RT in 2016.

ZOMG THE PATRIOTS MADE TRADEZ!

http://i.amz.mshcdn.com/1Yfeci9q8J0xtCIVjzkXxWMjMl0=/fit-in/1200x9600/http%3A%2F%2Fmashable.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FBeaker.gif

Demaryius Thomas and Emmanuel Sanders are both better than Cooks, Aqib Talib and Chris Harris are both better than Gilmore and Dwayne Allen is Virgil Green.

Cugel
03-11-2017, 01:36 PM
They werent "eager" to dump him. They were concerned with his injury and age that paying him the amount of money they were that it would hinder them long term. This is why Manning eventually took the pay cut with the incentives.

Sounds like you're confusing 2015 & 2016. In 2015 Manning agreed to a pay cut from $19M down to $15M. In 2016, they were in a hurry to get rid of him because until Manning finished pontificating about retirement, they couldn't go fully after Brock Osweiler and get him re-signed. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth about that, especially after Brock ultimately left town for a lot more money.


There was talk that Manning was hiding how hurt he really was in 2014. There is also talk that Fox kept putting him out there when they shouldnt have been. Neither of those situations have anything to do with Elway.

In 2014 he tore a muscle in his thigh during the Chargers game. He couldn't throw properly after that, but how serious is a partial thigh muscle tear? He didn't even need surgery on it to repair it after the season. A partially or completely torn patellar tendon in your foot is a much more severe injury.

But, his foot healed by September 2016. He could have played another year.

Of course we will never know if he could have stayed healthy. Possibly not, considering that the OL was more full of holes than Swiss Cheese. But, remember that Manning has a vastly quicker release than Siemian who holds onto the ball too long some times. That's not a fault anyone ever accused Manning of. That quick release and always knowing what the defense is up to is a real help to your offensive line. The Broncos didn't have that in 2016 with Trevor Sieminan.

Odds are that the Broncos with a reasonably healthy Manning win 11 games in 2016, get into the playoffs, and possibly beat the Texans in the first round of the playoffs, before going to Foxborough and getting curb stomped by Brady and the Patriots in the divisional round - just like the Texans did with Osweiler.


It was pretty evident that Manning was done, which is why he retired because he knew it wasnt going to get any better, but he got a ring so he is fine.


Manning didn't want to retire, that's why he took so long to decide. But, the Broncos were not going to bring him back, so he faced the prospect of starting over with a completely new team in his final season, and that was too much disruption and effort. Rather than go to a new city and a new team and have to learn yet another completely new system, he preferred to retire.

It was Broncos or retirement.


Yep, they misjudged Oz just like i did when we drafted him. It happens, even to the best GM's.


I never was terribly high on Oz because I went back and researched and found that out of 130 QBs taken at #56 or later in the 2nd round (Osweiler's pick) since Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round in 2000 (it's more like 200 now), NONE of them had played in a Super Bowl - other than Russell Wilson.

So, a late 2nd round pick is just not likely to become an elite QB. It's not impossible. Brady did it. Tony Romo went undrafted although he never got to a SB. Kurt Warner was undrafted in 1998.

But, it's so rare it happened once in the last 16 years. So, it's not wildly likely.


A lot of teams passed on Wilson, he went in the third so its not like he was rated as a great prospect. It actually still remains to be seen if Wilson can actually carry a team and not the other way around. He's benefited a lot from the great running attack they have and the defense.


Russell Wilson is a top 10 QB in this league. He's making about $24M a year and earning every penny behind that horrible Seattle OL. They are worse than Denver's bunch, but Wilson makes them look better than they are.

The Seahawks getting to the playoffs behind that bunch of stiffs is a great tribute to Russell Wilson. Just look at the draft history of their OL and you'll see what I mean. Not exactly a bunch of elite athletes.

Slick
03-11-2017, 01:36 PM
If the defense is still historically great they sure didn't play like it last year.

BroncoWave
03-11-2017, 01:38 PM
If the defense is still historically great they sure didn't play like it last year.

I don't think we'll see this unit hit 2015 levels again. It's still a really good unit, but that one was special. Just too hard to keep all that talent together though.

Cugel
03-11-2017, 01:49 PM
ZOMG THE PATRIOTS MADE TRADEZ!

http://i.amz.mshcdn.com/1Yfeci9q8J0xtCIVjzkXxWMjMl0=/fit-in/1200x9600/http%3A%2F%2Fmashable.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FBeaker.gif

Demaryius Thomas and Emmanuel Sanders are both better than Cooks, Aqib Talib and Chris Harris are both better than Gilmore and Dwayne Allen is Virgil Green.

Just who won the SB? The Patriots. Who has the best team in the NFL? The Patriots.

And instead of sitting pat in FA, they are out wheeling and dealing. Now, nobody is worrying about Jacksonville singing Calais Campbell and suddenly making a run in the AFC Playoffs.

But, this is the Patriots we are talking about. The best team in football, with the best QB who ever played (*I threw up in my mouth a little there*) just got better. That's all. They actually had $60M under the cap and a bunch of draft picks. They don't have any major weaknesses, and just addressed all their needs in FA, the way good teams do.

Meanwhile the Broncos swing and missed on a bunch of guys, especially trying and failing to fix glaring holes on their team. The contrast is glaring.

Nomad
03-11-2017, 01:53 PM
Shes taking a nap.

Glad to see she's awake. The Cutler pic was awful. :lol:

Cugel
03-11-2017, 01:55 PM
I don't think we'll see this unit hit 2015 levels again. It's still a really good unit, but that one was special. Just too hard to keep all that talent together though.

Well, nobody else has done it. The Seahawks defense was great for about 2 years, but not at the level where they relied on them exclusively to win, like the '85 Bears, the 2000 Ravens, the 2002 Bucs or the 2015 Broncos. Those are very rare defenses.

And none of them lasted. None of those prior teams ever went back to the SB after winning with Great Defense. Same thing happened to them. Guys got away in FA. Coaches left, players retired. Key players got hurt. Others just got older. Eventually you look around and the Bears defenses of the early 90's were nothing special. They still tried to keep that reputation of ferocious defense intact.

But, Father Time is still undefeated.

10323

Northman
03-11-2017, 01:55 PM
Denver doesnt have a HOF QB either anymore. So now its about making the right choices and to try and surround the young guys they have at QB with better support players. The Pats also believe it or not had more cap space than Denver. We can revisit how great NE is when Brady retires and they are forced to worry about who is leading their team. The last time Denver had 2 HOF QB's one of them went to 2 SB's and the other went to 5. That says something.

Northman
03-11-2017, 01:56 PM
Glad to see she's awake. The Cutler pic was awful. :lol:

What do you have against pussies??? :)

MOtorboat
03-11-2017, 02:02 PM
Just who won the SB? The Patriots. Who has the best team in the NFL? The Patriots.

And instead of sitting pat in FA, they are out wheeling and dealing. Now, nobody is worrying about Jacksonville singing Calais Campbell and suddenly making a run in the AFC Playoffs.

But, this is the Patriots we are talking about. The best team in football, with the best QB who ever played (*I threw up in my mouth a little there*) just got better. That's all. They actually had $60M under the cap and a bunch of draft picks. They don't have any major weaknesses, and just addressed all their needs in FA, the way good teams do.

Meanwhile the Broncos swing and missed on a bunch of guys, especially trying and failing to fix glaring holes on their team. The contrast is glaring.

This idea that anything Belicheck does is automatically the best thing to ever happen is absurd. They have Tom Brady, they'll compete every year with him.

King87
03-11-2017, 02:03 PM
I won't lie, they managed to fix their big issue of pass rusher...but the Cooks trade is just intriguing.

The fact that we're getting slammed for TRYING to get an actual FRANCHISE QB while NE has one is also bothersome.

King87
03-11-2017, 02:04 PM
Denver doesnt have a HOF QB either anymore. So now its about making the right choices and to try and surround the young guys they have at QB with better support players. The Pats also believe it or not had more cap space than Denver. We can revisit how great NE is when Brady retires and they are forced to worry about who is leading their team. The last time Denver had 2 HOF QB's one of them went to 2 SB's and the other went to 5. That says something.

This post styles.

Cugel
03-11-2017, 03:22 PM
This idea that anything Belicheck does is automatically the best thing to ever happen is absurd. They have Tom Brady, they'll compete every year with him.

They lost players to Free Agency. Really GOOD players like TE Martellus Bennett. No problem. They immediately go out and replace hiim:


Patriots acquired TE Dwayne Allen and a sixth-round pick from the Colts in exchange for a fourth-round pick.
The surprising move is a result of free agency's moving parts, with the Colts re-signing Jack Doyle and the Pats letting Martellus Bennett walk. Allen has long teased tantalizing upside as a complete tight end, but was extremely disappointing in the first season of a four-year, $29.4 million extension in 2016. Allen was out-played by Doyle, including as a blocker. The Pats clearly believe his game can be revived, while he can be more of a role player if Rob Gronkowski can stay on the field. If not, Allen has the skill-set to be an every-down player, at least in theory.



2017 NFL Free Agency: Trade-happy Patriots big winners -- CBS Sports (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2017-nfl-free-agency-trade-happy-patriots-big-winners-top-receivers-losers/)

The Patriots: The rich get richer. Unbelievably, the Patriots -- already the best team in football -- found a way to improve substantially. They didn’t do that by signing free agents but instead by engineering the trade of the offseason. Parting ways with a first-round pick, the Patriots landed Saints receiver Brandin Cooks (while also moving down from the third round to the Saints’ fourth-round slot). That’s a huge acquisition for the Patriots, Cooks gives Tom Brady his best deep threat since the days of Randy Moss.

Earlier Friday, the Patriots also took a chance on Kony Ealy, trading away a second-round pick to the Panthers. The Patriots got a third-round pick back, so acquiring a talented player in Ealy wasn’t even that costly for the Patriots. This is a typical Patriots trade where they acquire an underperforming, but talented player, hoping they can bring out the best in him. Remember, Ealy was the guy who sacked Peyton Manning three times in Super Bowl 50. He has talent, but he’s posted consecutive five-sack regular seasons, so he definitely needs to improve. Would it be shocking to anyone, though, if the Patriots turned him into a top-caliber pass rusher?

It’s just what the Patriots do.

Patriots fleeced the Saints, but Brandin Cooks is the ultimate winner! -- New Orleans Times Picayune (http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2017/03/saints_patriots_brandin_cooks.html)





http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/nfl/ne/new-england-patriots formerly of the Ravens, to a four-year, $20 million contract.
Clearly his visit on Friday went well. It's a nice addition for the Pats, who were looking for some help up front after letting Chris Long and Jabaal Sheard walk in free agency. The former seventh-round pick was stout against the run last year, grading out as PFF's No. 10 run-defender out of 51 qualifiers at 3-4 defensive end. Guy, who turns 27 next week, was also being pursued by the Redskins.




Patriots acquired DE Kony Ealy and a third-round pick from the Panthers in exchange for a second-round selection.
Just a couple days after taking a low-cost shot on Dwayne Allen, the Patriots are at it again. With a picked-over market at pass rusher, acquiring a former second-round pick by moving down only eight spots in the draft is another piece of smart business from New England. That said, Ealy has been a below-average player outside of a memorable Super Bowl 50 performance. The Patriots still have work to do on the defensive line.

That's what a successful off-season looks like. No head-scratching move, just solid lining up of new players to replace the ones who leave via FA. NE does that successfully every year.

The Broncos just lost their starting LT, their starting NT and their starting RT, and they replaced only their RT. The rest, and the lack of a pass-rushing DE to replace Malik Jackson are still gaping holes. They also have a hole at C where Paradis is coming off 2 hip surgeries. That will affect his play. Some players don't really become better as a result of hip surgery.

If you don't get it done in FA you have to reach for need in the draft. That is not good.

HORSEPOWER 56
03-11-2017, 03:55 PM
Just who won the SB? The Patriots. Who has the best team in the NFL? The Patriots.

And instead of sitting pat in FA, they are out wheeling and dealing. Now, nobody is worrying about Jacksonville singing Calais Campbell and suddenly making a run in the AFC Playoffs.

But, this is the Patriots we are talking about. The best team in football, with the best QB who ever played (*I threw up in my mouth a little there*) just got better. That's all. They actually had $60M under the cap and a bunch of draft picks. They don't have any major weaknesses, and just addressed all their needs in FA, the way good teams do.

Meanwhile the Broncos swing and missed on a bunch of guys, especially trying and failing to fix glaring holes on their team. The contrast is glaring.

I'll believe Jacksonville is for real when I see it. They made big splashes last year in FA and the draft and still sucked hard. It's not always about throwing around big $ and signing big names. J-vile has a losing culture and a bunch of good individual players that can't play as a team. Typically, the teams that make huge splashes in FA every year still stink because they don't build their team properly and have a bunch of mercenaries with no focus other than getting paid. Jacksonville is rapidly becoming the new Philly-esque "Dream Team".

Elway knew exactly what he was doing when he rebuilt the defense a few years ago with Ware, Ward, Talib, and Stewart because he got leaders (Ware, Ward) to balance the big egos (Talib, Von) and had good DCs (Del Rio, Wade Phillips) to coach them into a unit that wasn't a bunch of high paid individuals. J-Ville has a bunch of players, but still sucks at coaching and team culture.

I've seen what JFE can do when he puts his mind to it. It won't happen overnight, but he will fix the Oline and the QB situation. I'm still hoping the rumors of a Siemian for Richardson trade come to fruition. I'd love to have Richardson opposite of Wolfe in this defense!

Timmy!
03-11-2017, 04:45 PM
Did people really think that Elway was going to snap his fingers and an All-Pro would sign?

Denver paid Okung to be a turnstile and now he's getting more money than Denver was paying him and we're freaking out that Denver didn't pay him that ridiculous amount?

Loud noises!!!@!!!!>281*@3222111111111

MOtorboat
03-11-2017, 06:13 PM
They lost players to Free Agency. Really GOOD players like TE Martellus Bennett. No problem. They immediately go out and replace hiim:





Patriots fleeced the Saints, but Brandin Cooks is the ultimate winner! -- New Orleans Times Picayune (http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2017/03/saints_patriots_brandin_cooks.html)






That's what a successful off-season looks like. No head-scratching move, just solid lining up of new players to replace the ones who leave via FA. NE does that successfully every year.

The Broncos just lost their starting LT, their starting NT and their starting RT, and they replaced only their RT. The rest, and the lack of a pass-rushing DE to replace Malik Jackson are still gaping holes. They also have a hole at C where Paradis is coming off 2 hip surgeries. That will affect his play. Some players don't really become better as a result of hip surgery.

If you don't get it done in FA you have to reach for need in the draft. That is not good.

Oh please. Just two years ago, the national free agency debate was whether Denver won or New England won. Elway is fully capable of having a good offseason. I just don't care that they didn't go after the exact players you wanted.

Besides, again, we're now four days into the league year. Four days.

King87
03-11-2017, 06:22 PM
No one should care that we didn't sign Okung's worthless ass to another huge contract. Cugel, I think you are obsessed with Okung more than I am with Romo.

Timmy!
03-11-2017, 06:39 PM
I found a photo of Okung, a chargers executive and cugel. Let's see if we can identify who is who.

http://i.imgur.com/18oQTZA.jpg

LawDog
03-11-2017, 08:13 PM
Patriots will not play in AFC Championship this season. You heard it here first. Now, can we get back to Broncos football?

Hawgdriver
03-11-2017, 09:54 PM
I found a photo of Okung, a chargers executive and cugel. Let's see if we can identify who is who.

On behalf of FanInAZ and anyone else possibly offended by that offensive ass shit:

eat a slim, Tim.

But that shit is funny.

Timmy!
03-11-2017, 09:57 PM
On behalf of FanInAZ and anyone else possibly offended by that offensive ass shit:

eat a slim, Tim.

But that shit is funny.

Everybody knows I'm too retarded to be purposely offensive.

Hawgdriver
03-11-2017, 09:58 PM
Oh please. Just two years ago, the national free agency debate was whether Denver won or New England won. Elway is fully capable of having a good offseason. I just don't care that they didn't go after the exact players you wanted.

Besides, again, we're now four days into the league year. Four days.

MO, are you not concerned regarding 2017 starting LT?

MOtorboat
03-11-2017, 10:11 PM
MO, are you not concerned regarding 2017 starting LT?

Not overly.

Doesn't matter who you got at LT or RG or FB or slot receiver if your quarterback is shit.

Cugel
03-11-2017, 10:16 PM
Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
Did people really think that Elway was going to snap his fingers and an All-Pro would sign?

Denver paid Okung to be a turnstile and now he's getting more money than Denver was paying him and we're freaking out that Denver didn't pay him that ridiculous amount?

They ALL got some "ridiculous amount." ALL of the LT FAs got overpaid. When EVERYBODY got about the same amount, over $11M+ a year, it's not "overpay" it's the market. Period.

Hawgdriver
03-11-2017, 10:27 PM
Not overly.

Doesn't matter who you got at LT or RG or FB or slot receiver if your quarterback is shit.

Oh boy.

#dramaqueen

MOtorboat
03-11-2017, 10:37 PM
Oh boy.

#dramaqueen

I'm just not that concerned about the new tackle playing tackle. Sorry.

Jaded
03-11-2017, 10:39 PM
See this is yet another example of P*triot Envy, they trade a 2nd rnd pick for a DE with 10 sacks in 2 seasons (14 in 3) and a 1st rnd pick for a petutlant WR they didn't need who is going into the final season of his rookie deal and is looking to cash in Bigtime.

But they're geniuses

Northman
03-11-2017, 10:40 PM
So being concerned about a QB who at this point shows no upside is a drama queen but freaking out and having a end of the world mentality about an unknown tackle is rational? lol

MOtorboat
03-11-2017, 10:40 PM
They ALL got some "ridiculous amount." ALL of the LT FAs got overpaid. When EVERYBODY got about the same amount, over $11M+ a year, it's not "overpay" it's the market. Period.

No, it wasn't "the market" because Denver got a player capable of starting and capable of being just as good as the crap Okung put out there last year for a much cheaper price. He wasn't good enough to re-sign at that price. I commend Elway for not just giving in.

I don't know what you want us to say, Cugel? Sorry, he didn't sign your guy?

MOtorboat
03-11-2017, 10:41 PM
So being concerned about a QB who at this point shows no upside is a drama queen but freaking out and having a end of the world mentality about an unknown tackle is rational? lol

I think Hawg was mostly joking.

slim
03-11-2017, 10:54 PM
On behalf of FanInAZ and anyone else possibly offended by that offensive ass shit:

eat a slim, Tim.

But that shit is funny.

Bacon, prepare to meet your maker.

Hawgdriver
03-11-2017, 10:55 PM
I'm just not that concerned about the new tackle playing tackle. Sorry.

Sounds like you have a good bead on the situation, care to expand? You feel {Watson, Stephenson, Sampro, Schofield} are adequate to for roster spots {LT, RT}?

Hawgdriver
03-11-2017, 10:56 PM
Bacon, prepare to meet your maker.

My maker, I've met.

Hawgdriver
03-11-2017, 10:57 PM
So being concerned about a QB who at this point shows no upside is a drama queen but freaking out and having a end of the world mentality about an unknown tackle is rational? lol

Wait, so Watson is our starting LT?

slim
03-11-2017, 10:58 PM
My maker, I've met.

Did he look like Morgan Freeman?

Hawgdriver
03-11-2017, 10:59 PM
Did he look like Morgan Freeman?

Not at the time. I can't speak for the times when I wasn't observing him.

MOtorboat
03-12-2017, 12:01 AM
Sounds like you have a good bead on the situation, care to expand? You feel {Watson, Stephenson, Sampro, Schofield} are adequate to for roster spots {LT, RT}?

Not really. It's day four, he could haul in late cuts or draft picks. Who knows. Is that line ideal? No. Is it adequate? I think it probably is. But, I also don't expect that to be the line in the opener.

Jsteve01
03-12-2017, 12:25 AM
Not really. It's day four, he could haul in late cuts or draft picks. Who knows. Is that line ideal? No. Is it adequate? I think it probably is. But, I also don't expect that to be the line in the opener.

what other starting caliber tackles are out there? Are you hinting at a trade?

Jaded
03-12-2017, 12:48 AM
what other starting caliber tackles are out there? Are you hinting at a trade?

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4968/king-dunlap

Not saying I like it, just sayin.

Jsteve01
03-12-2017, 01:03 AM
talk about injuries and he also is under charges for stalking his ex. I'll take a flyer on Clady How storyybook would it be to see him finish his career on the denver pup list?

Hawgdriver
03-12-2017, 01:32 AM
Not really. It's day four, he could haul in late cuts or draft picks. Who knows. Is that line ideal? No. Is it adequate? I think it probably is. But, I also don't expect that to be the line in the opener.

Aite, I can relate.

Hawgdriver
03-12-2017, 01:33 AM
what other starting caliber tackles are out there? Are you hinting at a trade?

Yeah, that's the gist of my interrogatory of MO. Details, because I'm not smart enough to see the actual solution.

Hawgdriver
03-12-2017, 01:36 AM
talk about injuries and he also is under charges for stalking his ex. I'll take a flyer on Clady How storyybook would it be to see him finish his career on the denver pup list?

The Notebook level storybook. (?)

Hawgdriver
03-12-2017, 01:48 AM
So being concerned about a QB who at this point shows no upside is a drama queen but freaking out and having a end of the world mentality about an unknown tackle is rational? lol

So...'unknown'...

There is a finite number of elements in the set of possible 2017 Broncos starting LTs. Are any of them good? Peters? Is that the plan? Dunlap?

If those pan out, seems legit. If that is what you guys are hinting at, come out and say it. Quit acting like I'm a derpling because I don't know the secret insider plan to fielding a reasonable LT.

MOtorboat
03-12-2017, 01:52 AM
what other starting caliber tackles are out there? Are you hinting at a trade?

Let's take a look at what was available:
Andrew Whitworth
Russell Okung
Riley Reiff
Ryan Clady
Matt Kalil
Earl Watford

Of that list, Whitworth and Reiff were the only two tackles that A.) we hadn't already had experience with and knew weren't worth the money and B.) are top-level left tackles.

So there were two guys. There's 32 teams. Odds were low. Can't have all pros everywhere. Shit happens. Just the simple math of the cap means you're going to have to cobble a position together, and that position for the Broncos is going to be tackle.

To answer your second question, I have no idea. I just know that freaking out on March 12 about the left tackle position is kind of ******* useless.

Hawgdriver
03-12-2017, 01:55 AM
Let's take a look at what was available:
Andrew Whitworth
Russell Okung
Riley Reiff
Ryan Clady
Matt Kalil
Earl Watford

Of that list, Whitworth and Reiff were the only two tackles that A.) we hadn't already had experience with and knew weren't worth the money and B.) are top-level left tackles.

So there were two guys. There's 32 teams. Odds were low. Can't have all pros everywhere. Shit happens. Just the simple math of the cap means you're going to have to cobble a position together, and that position for the Broncos is going to be tackle.

To answer your second question, I have no idea. I just know that freaking out on March 12 about the left tackle position is kind of ******* useless.

You mean useless like all the other words on this message board? Or a different kind of useless?

MOtorboat
03-12-2017, 01:58 AM
You mean useless like all the other words on this message board? Or a different kind of useless?

You got me. Please commence the freakout. I will no longer say anything.

Hawgdriver
03-12-2017, 01:59 AM
You got me. Please commence the freakout. I will no longer say anything.

Oh, you.

FanInAZ
03-12-2017, 03:26 AM
I found a photo of Okung, a chargers executive and cugel. Let's see if we can identify who is who.

:tsk:

Jaded
03-12-2017, 11:47 AM
Broncos restructure with Stephenson, he's better at LT than Watson imo.

Cugel
03-12-2017, 11:48 AM
talk about injuries and he also is under charges for stalking his ex. I'll take a flyer on Clady How storyybook would it be to see him finish his career on the denver pup list?

That was subtle. I almost missed that! :laugh:

I think the Broncos believe that Clady has already spent enough time on IR while on their payroll. He ain't coming back. He might have to retire. Or, if some team is willing to bring him in, he'd have to play for the league minimum. Denver is just not the place. They already paid him $30 M for the 18 games he managed to play in 2013 and 2014 and 2015 combined, out of 42 possible starts.

He signed the big contract in 2013 offseason, immediately tore up his knee in training camp and has never been any good since.

Cugel
03-12-2017, 11:49 AM
Broncos restructure with Stephenson, he's better at LT than Watson imo.

If Donald Stephenson is the LT, then Trevor Siemian needs to start working with a sprint coach to improve his 40 times! :laugh:

Cugel
03-12-2017, 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
Not really. It's day four, he could haul in late cuts or draft picks. Who knows. Is that line ideal? No. Is it adequate? I think it probably is. But, I also don't expect that to be the line in the opener.

You are almost certainly right that the Broncos are not done fixing the OL. For one thing, even if they imagine Stephenson as one starting T and Watson at the other, that leaves absolutely ZERO depth in case of injury. And they've had serious injuries that took out one of their starting T's almost ever year.

Remember 2015? Clady was the LT starter, but he went down in training camp with an ACL so they were forced to put in rookie Ty Sambrailo. He lasted about 3 games before he tore up his shoulder and went on IR. The Broncos need to add at least 1 more tackle for depth. Possibly that will be in the draft, but I expect it will be via a trade.

Vance Joseph and John Elway already tipped their hands on that:

Elway said he wants to get all his team starters in FA because if you have to fill needs in the draft that is when teams reach.

Joseph said that if they don't get it done in FA, they "might have to make a deal."

Well, at this point, it's down to making a deal. And they will have the cap room to make any kind of deal soon once Tony Romo goes to Houston.

Remember that Jerry Jones isn't going to hold onto Romo forever and Houston is desperate to get Romo in there to start working with their QB coach in installing the offensive system. They don't want to wait until June. That starts them out late. So, they will have to offer some draft pick for Romo, eventually.

In fact, they are probably lying in insisting they won't trade for Romo. SOMETHING caused Jerry Jones to change his mind between telling Romo he would be released on Friday and then suddenly without warning not doing it. What could that have been but some communication from the Broncos or (more probably) the Texans about a possible trade.

Either that, or Jerry J. just realized "hey! They just traded Osweiler to free up room under the cap to pay Romo. Let's just hold the horses here. Now they are going to have to deal with me!" The Broncos have Siemian and Lynch, the Texans obviously aren't intending to start Tom Savage, no matter how much they pretend.

If they were willing to do that they would have kept Osweiler on the roster until Romo was signed, then traded him. They showed their cards by announcing "we're desperate! We just traded our starting QB who we just signed for $16M a year, one year ago."

Jaded
03-12-2017, 12:48 PM
If Donald Stephenson is the LT, then Trevor Siemian needs to start working with a sprint coach to improve his 40 times! :laugh:

When you think about it he's probably being kept around to be a backup swing T.

Cugel
03-12-2017, 01:11 PM
When you think about it he's probably being kept around to be a backup swing T.

Well, if he improved his 40 time, they could probably use him on punt coverage too! Actually though, when the Broncos thought Tony Romo was a virtual lock, they were exploring a trade of Trevor Siemian to the Jets.

The Broncos tipped their hand. The Texans tipped their hand, so Jerry Jones is holding out for a deal. I think he's going to get it in the end. The Texans really can't just roll with Tom Savage as their only QB, having got rid of Osweiler. So, Jerry just has to wait for them to fold.

The only thing they can do if they don't land Romo, is draft a QB in the first round. Then they will be in the same situation as Denver, with a veteran late round draft pick who exceeded expectations at QB (Savage), drafting a QB to develop into that long term starter.

The Broncos can just go with Trevor Siemian and Lynch if they want to. Romo would be an upgrade but the Broncos have their starting QB returning and the Texans don't.

Joel
03-13-2017, 09:10 AM
Sign Romo, trade him for Duane Brown and a 1st round pick. Bob McNairs idiocy has to work out for SOMEBODY (other than Oz) eventually; may as well be us. :tongue:

King87
03-13-2017, 02:15 PM
When you think about it he's probably being kept around to be a backup swing T.

Stephenson is athletic, right? I assume he's always going to suck and fail miserably - it doesn't hurt to try though...unless you're the QB.

OoOOooOOooOOOOOooOOOoH!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-13-2017, 02:28 PM
Headline should read:

STINK CLEARS THE ROOM!

LawDog
03-13-2017, 03:19 PM
Well, if he improved his 40 time, they could probably use him on punt coverage too! Actually though, when the Broncos thought Tony Romo was a virtual lock, they were exploring a trade of Trevor Siemian to the Jets.

The Broncos tipped their hand. The Texans tipped their hand, so Jerry Jones is holding out for a deal. I think he's going to get it in the end. The Texans really can't just roll with Tom Savage as their only QB, having got rid of Osweiler. So, Jerry just has to wait for them to fold.

The only thing they can do if they don't land Romo, is draft a QB in the first round. Then they will be in the same situation as Denver, with a veteran late round draft pick who exceeded expectations at QB (Savage), drafting a QB to develop into that long term starter.

The Broncos can just go with Trevor Siemian and Lynch if they want to. Romo would be an upgrade but the Broncos have their starting QB returning and the Texans don't.

Reports in the media does not make a thing true...

sneakers
03-16-2017, 05:30 PM
LA Chargers?

I must have missed something

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-16-2017, 06:18 PM
LA Chargers?

I must have missed something

Yes, it's a real thing.

Northman
03-16-2017, 07:05 PM
LA Chargers?

I must have missed something

Lol,,

What bench did you just wake up from Sneaks?