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Cugel
02-27-2017, 03:34 PM
Fascinating article/interview by Denver Post Broncos Insider Troy Renck: (http://1043thefan.com/155039/renck-siemian-shoulder-surgery-needed/)


Renck told “The Drive” that he had spoken with the young quarterback, who said everything was going well with the recovery process and was out of the sling.

But more importantly, Renck said Siemian explained that he needed to, in his mind, undergo the “elective” surgery so that he can better protect himself in the future.

“The way Trevor has explained it to me was he needed the surgery, in his mind, so he could lift and get stronger because if he didn’t, then he was always going to be limited in how much he could work out,” Renck said. “You take the risk that you’re going to need some recovery time, but, for him, the big picture of, ‘Hey, I’ve got to be able to get bigger and stronger.’

“Because what is one of the main questions about him? Durability. Well, it’s hard to get more durable if you can’t get stronger.”

Renck said the only reason the recovery would become an issue is if it somehow lasted until training camp, which he said “doesn’t appear to be the case.”

“If he misses April, I really see that as no big deal given his ability to study,” Renck said. “Now, if he’s going to miss everything until training camp, that’s a different animal. But he’s not thinking along those terms right now.”

And, certainly, Paxton Lynch, the team’s first-round draft pick in 2016, could certainly earn an edge up with Siemian out, but not only by virtue of Siemian being.

People, I think, are under the impression that they’re going to just hand Paxton the job. That is not going to happen,” Renck said. “If it’s not Tony Romo, it’s going to be a competition. And Paxton has to take a step forward.”

And in the end, the big picture for Siemian was he didn’t want to continue playing with severe discomfort like he did toward the end of the 2016 season.

“The thing that was revealing was … he admitted he was playing in discomfort until the last three weeks of the season. And, so, I’m sure that played into it,” Renck said, “but you know what (he doesn’t) want to play like that again because he’s compromised. And that’s not right for him. He’s not that type of athlete where he can play compromised.”

Of course, nobody can tell if either Siemian or Lynch is that long term franchise QB. As of right now, the smart money is on "neither." But, if Siemian turns out to vastly exceed expectations and become the long term answer, he needs to get a LOT healthier, because as of right now, he's in that "injury prone" category. Can't complete a season, either in college or in his first year as a pro.

And you can't win a starting job from the training room! If he gets stronger and becomes more durable it would really help his chances.

Elway is still going to draft another "future franchise QB" in the 2018 draft if Paxton Lynch proves to be a disappointment this year, but as long as he keeps getting better, Siemian has a chance to remain the Broncos starter. And who really cares which QB proves to be that top 10 QB, as long as someone does it for the Broncos!

Cugel
02-27-2017, 03:38 PM
I should point out that if the reports are true that Siemian had a grade 5 separation in his shoulder that is a very big deal. Doctors who were consulted about that kind of injury told Brandon Stokely that a grade 5 injury is NOT something you normally see in football injuries. Normally, that kind of injury is the result of a car crash! More severe than any normal football injury. Not good.

Healing time for a grade 5 shoulder injury = 4 to 6 months. Trevor might think he's ahead of schedule, blah, blah, blah. We've heard all that before. But, it's not quite as simple as he's making it out to be to just get back on the field.

BroncoJoe
02-27-2017, 03:41 PM
Didn't you already create a thread about this?

Cugel
02-27-2017, 03:43 PM
Didn't you already create a thread about this?

No. This is a new news story about Renck's interview with Trevor providing his inside view about his elective surgery. The news angle is about Trevor's viewpoint which I think is interesting. We don't normally get the player's candid assessment of his development. Trevor was unusually candid in that interview. Very unusual and pretty compelling story line in my view.

Hawgdriver
02-27-2017, 03:46 PM
Bionic Trevor 2017! Let's make it happen, Cugel.

Northman
02-27-2017, 03:48 PM
Still could of merged this with the other thread you made. I dont think you need 20 threads on Siemian's health whether its his POV or someone else's.

Hawgdriver
02-27-2017, 03:50 PM
I had a grade 3 AC separation which was a complete tear of one of the AC ligaments that stabilize the shoulder joint complex. I can only imagine how badly Siemian ****** up his shoulder...and what a hoss to get back on the job a few weeks later. Tough ass dude. I think he'll start in this league if he can stay healthy--with that mental toughness and drive and desire to overcome adversity?? I'm in. Not saying he's any kind of next big thing, but I'm in. People like that, I have their backs.

Northman
02-27-2017, 03:57 PM
Right now Siemian just kind fo reminds me of Griese which is both bad and good. I remember watching Griese hurt himself vs the Raiders but keeping playing through it which was admirable. Problem was i think it hurt him in the long run and then he fizzled out as a QB.

BroncoJoe
02-27-2017, 04:06 PM
I wouldn't really define surgery for a grade 5 separation "elective".

Slick
02-27-2017, 04:11 PM
I had a grade 3 AC separation which was a complete tear of one of the AC ligaments that stabilize the shoulder joint complex. I can only imagine how badly Siemian ****** up his shoulder...and what a hoss to get back on the job a few weeks later. Tough ass dude. I think he'll start in this league if he can stay healthy--with that mental toughness and drive and desire to overcome adversity?? I'm in. Not saying he's any kind of next big thing, but I'm in. People like that, I have their backs.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Siemian but he definitely showed toughness playing on a grade 5 separation. That's impressive.

Valar Morghulis
02-27-2017, 04:27 PM
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Siemian but he definitely showed toughness playing on a grade 5 separation. That's impressive.

He's a legend of tomorrow that we are lucky enough to have today

Slick
02-27-2017, 04:28 PM
He's a legend of tomorrow that we are lucky enough to have today

It blows my mind that there are Bronco fans who want to see more of him.

Jaded
02-27-2017, 04:44 PM
It blows my mind that there are Bronco fans who want to see more of him.

I laughed.

Northman
02-27-2017, 05:16 PM
He's a legend of tomorrow that we are lucky enough to have today

He's not the hero we deserve but the one we need.

spikerman
02-27-2017, 06:46 PM
Of course, nobody can tell if either Siemian or Lynch is that long term franchise QB. As of right now, the smart money is on "neither."

What does this mean? How, besides your opinion, is the "smart" money on neither?

King87
02-27-2017, 09:55 PM
It blows my mind that there are Bronco fans who want to see more of him.

Well, even though he's sucked I think the mentality is that you can always get better. And he will. But he has to get a lot better to even become average.

In regards to his injury - That is man. That is hardcore man.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-27-2017, 10:14 PM
I thought most of the accuracy and velocity problems were due to mechanical issues I saw likely related to injury- the inability to rotate hips, and/or plant and throw (all related to screwed up shoulder and/or high ankle sprain

King87
02-27-2017, 10:16 PM
I thought most of the accuracy and velocity problems were due to mechanical issues I saw likely related to injury- the inability to rotate hips, and/or plant and throw (all related to screwed up shoulder and/or high ankle sprain

He had a meh arm in college. Is that because he's always hurt? Or always mechanically weak?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-27-2017, 10:19 PM
He had a meh arm in college. Is that because he's always hurt? Or always mechanically weak?

I didn't watch him play in college, did you?

I wasn't impressed with what I saw during preseason 15'. I did see some throws preseason 16' and early that regular season which told me he had a better than average arm.

King87
02-27-2017, 10:23 PM
I didn't watch him play in college, did you?

I wasn't impressed with what I saw during preseason 15'. I did see some throws preseason 16' and early that regular season which told me he had a better than average arm.

There are videos of him playing college ball.

I have seen him hit a few bombs. But man, when you constantly overthrow WR's and you're putting all your arm into bombs, that's typically a bad sign.

The fact that he has never shown the ability to hit sideline throws, and has issues hitting goes over the middle when he has to throw it on a rope is...kind of scary.

ShaneFalco
02-27-2017, 10:26 PM
He's a legend of tomorrow that we are lucky enough to have today


He's not the hero we deserve but the one we need.

I believe in Trevor Siemian.

King87
02-27-2017, 10:28 PM
I believe in Trevor Siemian.

The kiss of death!

dogfish
02-27-2017, 11:01 PM
It blows my mind that there are Bronco fans who want to see more of him.

i want to see him become a football god! mostly because it would be great fun watching the owl eat all that crow. . . :heh:

King87
02-27-2017, 11:08 PM
i want to see him become a football god! mostly because it would be great fun watching the owl eat all that crow. . . :heh:

Some people deal with odds and reality.

Some other people just go 'well maybe he'll turn out to be good and we should keep him around.'

The second group of people buy lotto tickets and act like occasionally winning twenty bucks negates the consistent losses.

I hope he becomes the best QB ever. I hope he ******* averages 55 TD's a year.

King87
02-27-2017, 11:59 PM
I actually own a TS jersey.

Jaded
02-28-2017, 02:20 AM
I actually own a TS jersey.

You should get a TS tattoo.

#Idareyou
#Idoubledogdare

Joel
02-28-2017, 09:34 AM
Of course, nobody can tell if either Siemian or Lynch is that long term franchise QB. As of right now, the smart money is on "neither." But, if Siemian turns out to vastly exceed expectations and become the long term answer, he needs to get a LOT healthier, because as of right now, he's in that "injury prone" category. Can't complete a season, either in college or in his first year as a pro.
The last time a Broncos QB completed a season was 2013, and even then Manning played the back nine with BOTH ankles taped. The QBs aren't the problem.

That said, ANY QB will BECOME a problem—guaranteed—unless we come up with a better "protection scheme" than "tell him to scramble a lot and lift until he can shrug off charging defensive linemen." If that's our solution why not cut all our linemen and spend the cap savings on a new weight set for each QB? And RB.

I do agree that the odds strongly suggest the answer to "which of our current QBs is our franchise guy?" is "neither, but we'll find one eventually." I just hope that by the time we find that guy we've also found five others to keep him upright. Heisman-winning Jim Plunkett was a "bust" in NE until they dumped on a Raiders team that could actually give him some time, and I still contend the biggest difference between David and Derek Carr is blocking, not birth order.

Jsteve01
02-28-2017, 09:57 AM
The last time a Broncos QB completed a season was 2013, and even then Manning played the back nine with BOTH ankles taped. The QBs aren't the problem.

That said, ANY QB will BECOME a problem—guaranteed—unless we come up with a better "protection scheme" than "tell him to scramble a lot and lift until he can shrug off charging defensive linemen." If that's our solution why not cut all our linemen and spend the cap savings on a new weight set for each QB? And RB.

I do agree that the odds strongly suggest the answer to "which of our current QBs is our franchise guy?" is "neither, but we'll find one eventually." I just hope that by the time we find that guy we've also found five others to keep him upright. Heisman-winning Jim Plunkett was a "bust" in NE until they dumped on a Raiders team that could actually give him some time, and I still contend the biggest difference between David and Derek Carr is blocking, not birth order.

Agree completely on all points especially the Carr statement. I felt horrible for David Carr in Houston. Same thing happened to Couch in Cleveland. Both should have been much better than they were.

A local Grand Junction kid Andrew Walter had all the potential in the world and then got drafted by the Raiders during their 7 step drop and sling it as hard as you can phase. One of my best friends was his left tackle in high school and told me that it was everything he could do not to scream at the O line coach and coordinator during film sessions because their scheme was antiquated and their protections were horrid. Really hope we give these kids a real opportunity because right now our O line would ruin almost any young gun slinger.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-28-2017, 10:18 AM
I don't think I've ever bought a lottery ticket. I did play black jack at a 5 card wheel once. I broke even after 6 or 7 hands.

Cugel
02-28-2017, 10:36 AM
I wouldn't really define surgery for a grade 5 separation "elective".

That's kind of the point! I think he's trying to downplay the severity of his injury. I flat don't believe his story. And I'm not knocking the guy. He's in a "QB competition" and the other guy is a 1st round draft pick. I think Cecil Lammey looked and saw that every single QB taken in the first round for the last 15 years has become that team's starter at some point. Some of them flamed out like Johnny Manziel of course, but every single one of them got the starting job and kept it until they proved they couldn't do it.

Trevor is on a very steep uphill and long term battle to keep his starting job, and the odds are not at all in his favour.

But, look at the timeline:

He hurt his shoulder in game 4. He concealed the extent of this injury the entire season. He's walking around with a degree of separation that doctors have stated normally occurs in auto accident victims, NOT a normal football injury. Grade six is the worst - you see these kinds of high impact crushing injuries in industrial accidents. Grade 5 is auto accidents. Grade 3 is normally the worst football related injury. So, this was a severe impact injury.

Not only does he conceal the injury but local beat reporters say he would just walk around the facility with an ice bag on his shoulder like it was no big deal. It was a total cover up.

So, do we believe Trevor when he says it was "elective surgery" or do we believe the doctors who say "that's a 4 to 6 month recovery window" which would mean he wouldn't be healthy until training camp in July, so he'd miss OTAs and Mini-camp?

To add confusion, Troy Renk or Mike Klis (both "Broncos insiders" I forget which) reported on Twitter that the Broncos PR guy reported they expect Trevor to "participate" in OTAs in April. The definition of "participate" is lacking something in precision. Will he be able to fully participate in throwing drills?

At a minimum, the Broncos will have to carefully monitor him and make sure he's not trying to rush back onto the field in order to prevent Paxton from getting ahead of him with the new coaching staff.

Latest reports out of Dove Valley are the new coaching staff is impressed with Trevor's work ethic, which is hardly surprising since he's a total grinder and always has been. That's how he got the job.

Bottom Line: they really need to limit his activity until he's close to 100% regardless of how he tries to get on the field. The Broncos can't afford to let him get re-injured given the fact that they might have no choice but to start Trevor if Paxton wins the starting job, but then plays badly and the team loses in the regular season.

Given the uncertainty surrounding whether Paxton Lynch can play in this league (jury is still out on this) they badly need a healthy Trevor Siemian going into the season, not a guy who's trying to conceal injury in order to gut it out. Even if Paxton were to suddenly start channeling Peyton Manning out there, that still doesn't mean Paxton can't get hurt - in which case they need Trevor healthy enough to play effectively.

He's a really tough guy, yes, but in this situation that's not a good thing for the team.

Cugel
02-28-2017, 10:56 AM
The last time a Broncos QB completed a season was 2013, and even then Manning played the back nine with BOTH ankles taped. The QBs aren't the problem.

That said, ANY QB will BECOME a problem—guaranteed—unless we come up with a better "protection scheme" than "tell him to scramble a lot and lift until he can shrug off charging defensive linemen." If that's our solution why not cut all our linemen and spend the cap savings on a new weight set for each QB? And RB.

I do agree that the odds strongly suggest the answer to "which of our current QBs is our franchise guy?" is "neither, but we'll find one eventually." I just hope that by the time we find that guy we've also found five others to keep him upright. Heisman-winning Jim Plunkett was a "bust" in NE until they dumped on a Raiders team that could actually give him some time, and I still contend the biggest difference between David and Derek Carr is blocking, not birth order.

And yet we see Tom Brady win the SB and Russell Wilson take his team into the playoffs despite those teams having WORSE OLs than Denver. Seattle's OL is so bad their fans are happy Denver cut Okung, because they are hoping Seattle brings him back! And they very well might since he's better than either starting T on their roster.

Tom Cable is their OL coach and NFL experts consider him a genius for patching together that band of cast-offs and mis-fits into a functioning OL. Denver is clearly hoping to do the same with all the former Offensive Coordinators they've hired to be offensive assistant coaches for this team. They're certainly not lacking in coaching talent at least!

I think Joel you are unhappy with Elway's chosen business model: the Seahawks model, but he's not going to change it!

After the 2013 SB, Elway started copying Seattle's model, spending all his money on defense. Partly a result of that is that Both the Seahawks and Broncos don't spend a lot of money on the OL. The Seahawks highest paid OL is G Germain Ifedi (I never heard of this guy). He's making $1.8 M.

That's just pitiful. By contrast, the Raiders decided to spend big in FA on their OL. As a result their FA G Kelechi Osemele is making $11,700,000 this year. Of course, this means the Raiders can't go out and pay big FA $ to defensive veterans like the Broncos did with DeMarcus Ware, Aquib Talib, Darien Stewart and T.J. Ward.

Now the Broncos have $40 M in cap space to spend in FA & the draft, but nowhere to spend it. The FA OL this year are mediocre and expensive, and the draft is just a barren wasteland at OL (according to NFL former scouts). Hopefully they find a G in the second round or something, but no player they draft will be much use this season.

I think Joel's head might explode if the Broncos try and get by this season without any FA upgrades on the OL, but that's a very real possibility that they try and "coach up" the players they already have, rather than going out and paying a big contract to a Whitworth or Kelvin Beachum.

That would mean the starting LT just. . . . . . . might . . . . . . . . be . . . . wait for it. . . . . . . Ty Sambrailo! :eek:

Hawgdriver
02-28-2017, 11:03 AM
[Trevor was] a guy who's trying to conceal injury

Nothing about his injury was concealed.

Cugel
02-28-2017, 11:09 AM
Nothing about his injury was concealed.

The severity of his injury was certainly concealed. He passed it off all season as a "minor injury". He should have had surgery on it week 5 of the regular season and any normal person would not consider that surgery "elective". It's just nuts to treat your body like that but that's life in the NFL.

It's exactly as if you got in a car wreck, tore up your shoulder and then didn't bother to get surgery to repair it, instead participating in a demolition derby each week for the next three months.

Hawgdriver
02-28-2017, 11:22 AM
The severity of his injury was certainly concealed. He passed it off all season as a "minor injury". He should have had surgery on it week 5 of the regular season and any normal person would not consider that surgery "elective". It's just nuts to treat your body like that but that's life in the NFL.

It's exactly as if you got in a car wreck, tore up your shoulder and then didn't bother to get surgery to repair it, instead participating in a demolition derby each week for the next three months.

I think you are full of shit.

King87
02-28-2017, 11:56 AM
I think you are full of shit.

I think the Broncos and TS did what a lot of teams do and did not totally disclose the severity of the injury. It's the typical NFL thing. This isn't devious. I don't know why Cugel seems to be making a big deal out of it.

LTC Pain
02-28-2017, 12:11 PM
I think the Broncos and TS did what a lot of teams do and did not totally disclose the severity of the injury. It's the typical NFL thing. This isn't devious. I don't know why Cugel seems to be making a big deal out of it.

That's what Cugel does. Makes a mountain out of a molehill to reveal a conspiracy that isn't there.

Rick
02-28-2017, 01:47 PM
The severity of his injury was certainly concealed. He passed it off all season as a "minor injury". He should have had surgery on it week 5 of the regular season and any normal person would not consider that surgery "elective". It's just nuts to treat your body like that but that's life in the NFL.

It's exactly as if you got in a car wreck, tore up your shoulder and then didn't bother to get surgery to repair it, instead participating in a demolition derby each week for the next three months.

Concealed from who exactly? From the fans? He doesn't have to tell us anything.

You don't think the Broncos staff did a full diagnosis on it? You think he got his evaluation, told them the results and they never verified?

NightTerror218
02-28-2017, 01:50 PM
I think the Broncos and TS did what a lot of teams do and did not totally disclose the severity of the injury. It's the typical NFL thing. This isn't devious. I don't know why Cugel seems to be making a big deal out of it.

Sounds like it was a pain thing. Elective surgery or let the should we try to heal on own and have pain next year.

But trying to be tough and play through it through the season may or may not bite him in the ass if he made it worse pushing back recovery time.

LawDog
02-28-2017, 02:00 PM
I seriously doubt that it was a Grade 5 separation. Nobody from the team said that including Trevor. Stokely said that he "heard" it was a Grade 5 and that, if so, it would be a 4-6 month recovery period. But, do a little googling on a Grade 5 and you will see that it involves the scapula separating from the clavicle and then tending to displace downward while the clavicle releases upward with a noticeable bump. My own personal opinion is that the separation was less than a grade 5 and the surgery was indeed "elective". We'll be able to speculate more about this when we see how and when Trevor returns to OTAs, minicamp, etc.

King87
02-28-2017, 02:01 PM
I seriously doubt that it was a Grade 5 separation. Nobody from the team said that including Trevor. Stokely said that he "heard" it was a Grade 5 and that, if so, it would be a 4-6 month recovery period. But, do a little googling on a Grade 5 and you will see that it involves the scapula separating from the clavicle and then tending to displace downward while the clavicle releases upward with a noticeable bump. My own personal opinion is that the separation was less than a grade 5 and the surgery was indeed "elective". We'll be able to speculate more about this when we see how and when Trevor returns to OTAs, minicamp, etc.

I like your words. You use words well.

Joel
02-28-2017, 02:05 PM
And yet we see Tom Brady win the SB and Russell Wilson take his team into the playoffs despite those teams having WORSE OLs than Denver.
"All things are possible through" rampant cheating and getting away with it. But I'd actually prefer Joseph NOT turn out to be as big a douche as Belicheat and Carroll, and not just because McDumbass already showed us what happens when even one of Belicheats proteges tries the same crap on a different team.

Even if we ignore all that NONE of our current QBs have the development or experience of even Wilson, much less Brady. Throwing a young raw QBotF out there behind a Swiss cheese line is throwing him to the wolves, guaranteeing that he never has time to learn how to read/diagnose coverages or go through progressions: What he WILL learn is how to desperately get rid of the ball in <2 seconds with little regard for WHERE (or to WHOM) it goes and be terrified of his OWN "shadow." All that does for a young QB is PERMANENTLY CRIPPLE him both mentally and physically.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-28-2017, 02:30 PM
A
I seriously doubt that it was a Grade 5 separation. Nobody from the team said that including Trevor. Stokely said that he "heard" it was a Grade 5 and that, if so, it would be a 4-6 month recovery period. But, do a little googling on a Grade 5 and you will see that it involves the scapula separating from the clavicle and then tending to displace downward while the clavicle releases upward with a noticeable bump. My own personal opinion is that the separation was less than a grade 5 and the surgery was indeed "elective". We'll be able to speculate more about this when we see how and when Trevor returns to OTAs, minicamp, etc.

One of the players posted a picture of Trevor last year that showed the displacement you're describing here.

Northman
02-28-2017, 02:32 PM
Patriots Oline was ranked 5th in the NFL last year. That is not worse than Denver's. lol

Joel
02-28-2017, 02:58 PM
Patriots Oline was ranked 5th in the NFL last year. That is not worse than Denver's. lol
To be fair, their interior line went to Hell after Koppen and Mankins left. Solder's always been steady, and Vollmer was too before the injury bug got him, but inside it was a mess, and that hurts Brady more than edge rushers for the same reason it didn't Manning. HOWEVER, NE* responded by spending three 4ths and a 3rd, not on OTs (though they spent a 4th there too) but on Gs and Cs. Result:

Bryan Stork won a SB as a starting rookie C,
Shaq Mason has started 25 games in 2 years, winning a SB Ring of his own a few weeks ago
Joe Thuney started every game this year as a rookie, and added his own SB Ring

I'm not saying they're instant All Pros; Atlanta got to Brady more than most folks remember in the SB (even and especially in the 4th) and it was usually inside.

Starting LT Nate Solder was, of course, the #17 overall pick in 2011, while RT was a sufficiently lower priority to wait until #58 to take Vollmer in 2009. Neither was drafted in the 3rd or 4th though: Because very few starting quality OTs stick around as long as starting quality Gs.

Northman
02-28-2017, 06:09 PM
To be fair, their interior line went to Hell after Koppen and Mankins left. Solder's always been steady, and Vollmer was too before the injury bug got him, but inside it was a mess, and that hurts Brady more than edge rushers for the same reason it didn't Manning. HOWEVER, NE* responded by spending three 4ths and a 3rd, not on OTs (though they spent a 4th there too) but on Gs and Cs. Result:

Bryan Stork won a SB as a starting rookie C,
Shaq Mason has started 25 games in 2 years, winning a SB Ring of his own a few weeks ago
Joe Thuney started every game this year as a rookie, and added his own SB Ring

I'm not saying they're instant All Pros; Atlanta got to Brady more than most folks remember in the SB (even and especially in the 4th) and it was usually inside.

Starting LT Nate Solder was, of course, the #17 overall pick in 2011, while RT was a sufficiently lower priority to wait until #58 to take Vollmer in 2009. Neither was drafted in the 3rd or 4th though: Because very few starting quality OTs stick around as long as starting quality Gs.


No, just stop it already Joel. There is no comparison to be made between NE's Oline and Denver's. Its night and day. Sorry.

King87
02-28-2017, 09:19 PM
No, just stop it already Joel. There is no comparison to be made between NE's Oline and Denver's. Its night and day. Sorry.

The man who professes that the entire damn team runs centrally to an offensive lines should not be making these posts!

WHAT IS HAPPENING?!?!?!?

Jaded
02-28-2017, 09:58 PM
Solder isn't "solid" and Cannon was always an undeveloped dancing bear until the got Scarneccia out of mothballs. The rest of their OL is shit but the T's are legit. All you need to do is watch Cannon in the '16 playoff game and last seasons regular season game to see what a legit OL Coach can do for a player.

I have no reservations in saying that had a Scarneccia or Bill Callahan been Denver's OL Coach last season it's the Broncos vs Falcons in the SB.

Rick
02-28-2017, 11:38 PM
Solder went to high school in my town, I can say that guys has always been a beast.

Always wished he would leave NE and want to come to Denver :(

King87
02-28-2017, 11:53 PM
https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season/

Patriots are tenth for line play. Look at all those teams ranked ahead of them that didn't win the SB. I can't believe the Titans had the best line in the league and couldn't make the playoffs!

Also, look at how good Whitworth is. Look at that. That man should follow me to Denver.

I'll call him right ******* now!

Rick
02-28-2017, 11:55 PM
https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season/

Patriots are tenth for line play. Look at all those teams ranked ahead of them that didn't win the SB. I can't believe the Titans had the best line in the league and couldn't make the playoffs!

Also, look at how good Whitworth is. Look at that. That man should follow me to Denver.

I'll call him right ******* now!

When you call him ask him to bring Green as well.

King87
02-28-2017, 11:56 PM
I'll have him bring Gio.

dogfish
03-01-2017, 12:49 AM
I'll have him bring Gio.
have him bring geno instead. . .

King87
03-01-2017, 12:54 AM
have him bring geno instead. . .

He's a 4-3 DL player.

dogfish
03-01-2017, 01:27 AM
He's a 4-3 DL player.

who cares? since this shit is going down in fantasy land, we'll just use him to dominate inside in our nickel and dime packages. . .

King87
03-01-2017, 01:49 AM
who cares? since this shit is going down in fantasy land, we'll just use him to dominate inside in our nickel and dime packages. . .

We could land AWW, though. You bully!

Cugel
03-01-2017, 09:55 AM
That's what Cugel does. Makes a mountain out of a molehill to reveal a conspiracy that isn't there.

Do you actually think that NFL teams tell the truth about player injuries? Did you just fall off the turnip truck? :laugh:

"Conspiracies"? If Tom Brady's left leg fell off Belichick would say "uh, he's obviously suffering from a lower body injury." (Mark Schlereth came up with that one).

Son, that is how the NFL operates. Tell them nothing. And if you have to say something because league rules dictate that you stand up and answer questions at least once a week, develop "coach speak" that allows you to talk for 20 minutes without saying anything. NFL coaches and politicians both are masters of that.

The really good ones have the ability to convince people they are being "sincere". That's because people judge others based on their facial expressions, tone of voice and other cues that the speaker "is being sincere." Only people can learn to fake all that.

It's not actually lying because the NFL norm is NOT to tell the literal honest truth in situations like that.

You know I hate having to instruct you people about how life in the NFL actually works. I'm not a former player. I just listen to lots of former players and coaches talk about it and they all say the same thing. Just listen to a Belichick press conference if you want to see the acknowledged master of coach-speak.

According to his former players, Belichick in private is nothing like his press conferences. He's amiable and communicative. It's just that that candour does not leave the locker-room. From his perspective "why should I give anything away?"

Cugel
03-01-2017, 10:06 AM
Solder isn't "solid" and Cannon was always an undeveloped dancing bear until the got Scarneccia out of mothballs. The rest of their OL is shit but the T's are legit. All you need to do is watch Cannon in the '16 playoff game and last seasons regular season game to see what a legit OL Coach can do for a player.

I have no reservations in saying that had a Scarneccia or Bill Callahan been Denver's OL Coach last season it's the Broncos vs Falcons in the SB.

SB? With our QBs? :laugh: Well that's a bit of an exaggeration, but I'd agree that with better OL and generally offensive coaching the Broncos could have made the playoffs. Whether they could have won there with Trevor Siemian and his "un-surgically repaired shoulder" is another matter.

That's why Elway wanted to fire all the offensive assistant coaches - which led directly to Kubiak's retirement. He didn't want to fire Clancey Barone or Rick Dennison, and no way was Elway going to bring those guys back after the failures of last season.

slim
03-01-2017, 10:06 AM
Cugel, thanks for telling us how the NFL operates.

Quick question, there is no chance the Broncos release Okung, right?

BeefStew25
03-01-2017, 10:10 AM
Cugel, thanks for telling us how the NFL operates.

Quick question, there is no chance the Broncos release Okung, right?

Slim I didn't play in the NFL. But I have high speed internet. Learn from me.

Northman
03-01-2017, 10:30 AM
Slim I didn't play in the NFL. But I have high speed internet. Learn from me.

I didnt play pro football either, but i did stay at a Holiday Inn.

Cugel
03-01-2017, 10:39 AM
Cugel, thanks for telling us how the NFL operates.

Quick question, there is no chance the Broncos release Okung, right?

I said they might have no choice but to re-sign him and I still think it's a mistake because they won't wind up with anybody better. And I'm not the only one. Brandon Stokely thinks so too and he played 16 seasons in the NFL and knows a bit about it.

They are still trying to figure out if they can re-sign Okung to a lower salary. Now, I doubt they manage to do it, but Joseph just said they are trying, so maybe they have some hope he will agree.

BTW: There are no conspiracies in the NFL, well unless you count the Patriots. "Coaches don't tell the unvarnished truth at press-conferences" is not a "conspiracy."

Cugel
03-01-2017, 10:48 AM
Concealed from who exactly? From the fans? He doesn't have to tell us anything.

You don't think the Broncos staff did a full diagnosis on it? You think he got his evaluation, told them the results and they never verified?

Actually, the NFL requires teams to admit injuries. They do this to prevent bookies from getting "inside information." Whether you agree with this policy or not, it exists. They concealed the severity of his injury. No, they don't have to admit everything to fans. But, this is a big deal. Why was Siemian playing in the final Raiders game when he was that badly injured and the game didn't count?

Usually I think DMac is a big tool, but he's been ranting on the radio since this news came out about what a big deal this is. I think he's got a point in this one instance. (It pains me to admit DMac could be right about something though, because he seldom is).

Hawgdriver
03-01-2017, 11:00 AM
... you people ...

Oh no he di'n't!

Thanks for the 1000 word essay on obvious things that have no bearing on your statement that Trevor concealed his injury from coaches and staff.

You can't run that BS in here son!

slim
03-01-2017, 01:06 PM
Slim I didn't play in the NFL. But I have high speed internet. Learn from me.

I am not a proctologist, but I would be willing to give you a prostate exam.

Jaded
03-03-2017, 12:08 AM
I'll have him bring Gio.

Boom!

Make it so, Kinger.

King87
03-03-2017, 12:22 AM
Boom!

Make it so, Kinger.

OooOOoOOoOOoOOoOOOOh someone believes in meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

King87
03-06-2017, 01:30 PM
I actually own a TS jersey.

It's true.

dogfish
03-06-2017, 05:59 PM
It's true.

how many times have you wiped your ass with it?

King87
03-06-2017, 09:14 PM
how many times have you wiped your ass with it?

Never.

I don't actually hate him. I just got vilified for pointing out realities about him and people get butthurt. So they got styled on. Then they got more butthurt. Then he was shit at the end of the year and I made bitches put respect on my name.

All I did was go 'at what point did he ever look like he was going to be able to turn into anything that is worth delaying the development of Lynch?' and when people tried to argue it, well, facts are stubborn things.

I can't help it that I'm (probably) right.

Cugel
03-07-2017, 12:22 PM
One thing NFL experts are saying right now is that any top FA LT (none of them elite) whom the Broncos might acquire in FA is pretty much the same as any other. That means that losing Okung, but signing Kelvin Beachum or Reiley Reiff is pretty much a wash. Not an upgrade, but not a downgrade either.

At this point, with crappola in the draft at LT, and no really good FA LTs, and little prospect of trading for anybody really good, I'll take trading Okung for Reiff and saving a couple million (say from $11 or $12M down to $8M or $9 or even $10M), even though it's not an upgrade. Getting Whitworth would be an upgrade, although he's been trying to find the Fountain of Youth since the Ponce De Leon expedition of 1513. News4 update: He hasn't found it yet. :coffee:

Cugel
03-07-2017, 12:29 PM
Never.

I don't actually hate him. I just got vilified for pointing out realities about him and people get butthurt. So they got styled on. Then they got more butthurt. Then he was shit at the end of the year and I made bitches put respect on my name.

All I did was go 'at what point did he ever look like he was going to be able to turn into anything that is worth delaying the development of Lynch?' and when people tried to argue it, well, facts are stubborn things.

I can't help it that I'm (probably) right.

It's interesting to hear Tyler Polumbus, the biggest Trevor Siemian fan who keeps arguing on the radio that the Broncos should just forget about Romo and start Siemian and maybe trade Lynch for a 1/2 bag of Cheetos, saying that he projects Trevor Siemian to be "another Alex Smith."

Polumbus actually thinks this is some sort of compliment, although the Chiefs don't. They are considering ditching Smith and getting a real QB who gives them a chance in the playoffs. If this wasn't a terrible draft year for QBs (outside DeShaun Watson), they might make a move. And they are a dark horse candidate to acquire Tony Romo.

If they did that they would instantly become a co-favourite to win the AFC with the Steelers and Patriots, but I don't expect it.

If another Alex Smith is all we have to look forward to, pass!

Joel
03-07-2017, 12:30 PM
One thing NFL experts are saying right now is that any top FA LT (none of them elite) whom the Broncos might acquire in FA is pretty much the same as any other. That means that losing Okung, but signing Kelvin Beachum or Reiley Reiff is pretty much a wash. Not an upgrade, but not a downgrade either.

At this point, with crappola in the draft at LT, and no really good FA LTs, and little prospect of trading for anybody really good, I'll take trading Okung for Reiff and saving a couple million (say from $11 or $12M down to $8M or $9 or even $10M), even though it's not an upgrade. Getting Whitworth would be an upgrade, although he's been trying to find the Fountain of Youth since the Ponce De Leon expedition of 1513. News4 update: He hasn't found it yet. :coffee:
Pretty much what I've been saying, man: Even if crap (or at least mediocrity) IS the Only Player Available, there's plenty of it to be had for WELL under $12M/yr for TWO years. Knowing Elway, I wouldn't be surprised if we did it for $7M, or less (I believe Okung only got $6M this year because of the huge option we were NEVER going to exercise.) And you can get a pretty good starting G (even a RG) for $5-7M/yr.

King87
03-07-2017, 12:33 PM
I don't understand why Cugel so flippantly dismisses at LT who remains an elite player at that position.

King87
03-07-2017, 01:04 PM
One thing NFL experts are saying right now is that any top FA LT (none of them elite) whom the Broncos might acquire in FA is pretty much the same as any other. That means that losing Okung, but signing Kelvin Beachum or Reiley Reiff is pretty much a wash. Not an upgrade, but not a downgrade either.

At this point, with crappola in the draft at LT, and no really good FA LTs, and little prospect of trading for anybody really good, I'll take trading Okung for Reiff and saving a couple million (say from $11 or $12M down to $8M or $9 or even $10M), even though it's not an upgrade. Getting Whitworth would be an upgrade, although he's been trying to find the Fountain of Youth since the Ponce De Leon expedition of 1513. News4 update: He hasn't found it yet. :coffee:

Look at Whitworth's production and ranking. Then stop saying some of the guys aren't elite. Try to form your own interpretations as opposed to just reposting their opinions.

And dance like no one is watching.

DenBronx
03-18-2017, 01:37 AM
Having football withdrawals and so I decided to go back and rewatch 2016 highlights from both QBs.

Reality is Siemian looked vastly better than Lynch and really looks like he has a bright future. I know this isn't fair to Lynch given that he was a rookie but Trevor kinda was too. He was our 3rd QB last year and really I think they thought of him as camp fodder initially.

But, his throws are money. He spins it perfectly. He is athletic. Has leadership qualities you want in a QB. Seems super humble. But, he was playing with a terrible OL and played injured most of the season. One of his bad games came when he was rushed back on the field.

Just comparing the two QBs and Lynchs footwork needs alot of help. Just looks awkward at times. I know this isn't the final product for Lynch.

Elways going to add a veteran QB. If we don't sign Romo I think Siemian is Elways guy. He will only get better and I doubt Lynch catches up to him performance wise.

King87
03-18-2017, 11:24 AM
Oh ******* Christ.

Hawgdriver
03-18-2017, 11:38 AM
Oh ******* Christ.

Might want to get your Siemian jersey autographed before the price goes up.

Cugel
03-18-2017, 03:44 PM
Look at Whitworth's production and ranking. Then stop saying some of the guys aren't elite. Try to form your own interpretations as opposed to just reposting their opinions.

And dance like no one is watching.

Whitworth was the best FA LT. He was not a top 10 guy, but he was good enough. The problem was he got $15M a year and Okung got $13 (although the Broncos could have had him for $11 which looks like a hell of a bargain right about now).

Reilly Reiff got 5 years, $58M, $26M guaranteed. Matt Kalil got $55M, $31 M guaranteed. Kelvin Beachum got $24M, $12 M guaranteed. They all got overpaid for what they're worth. But, that's the FA market.

As I've been saying. "In FA teams pay A+ prices for B or B- players." -- Mark Schlereth.

King87
03-18-2017, 03:54 PM
Whitworth was the best FA LT. He was not a top 10 guy, but he was good enough. The problem was he got $15M a year and Okung got $13 (although the Broncos could have had him for $11 which looks like a hell of a bargain right about now).

Reilly Reiff got 5 years, $58M, $26M guaranteed. Matt Kalil got $55M, $31 M guaranteed. Kelvin Beachum got $24M, $12 M guaranteed. They all got overpaid for what they're worth. But, that's the FA market.

As I've been saying. "In FA teams pay A+ prices for B or B- players." -- Mark Schlereth.

You're out of your mind. He was ranked in the top three at LT AGAIN. Either support your claim about his productivity or stop spewing absurdities. And no, a random OL who played a few years in Denver is not actually an authority.

Joel
03-18-2017, 05:49 PM
You're out of your mind. He was ranked in the top three at LT AGAIN. Either support your claim about his productivity or stop spewing absurdities. And no, a random OL who played a few years in Denver is not actually an authority.
To be fair, Stink can be a bit full of himself at times, but he's not just "a random OL who played a few years in Denver:" He'd won a SB before he ever got to Denver.

Anyway, he and John Hannah are pretty much the only GUARDS in NFL history not forgotten the moment they retired, so leave the poor SOB alone. :tongue:

King87
03-18-2017, 06:50 PM
This wasn't Stink, Joel. Stink was referenced in the last insane Cugel post, but he was citing to a guy who played for us a few years ago.

Hawgdriver
03-18-2017, 07:45 PM
Whitworth was the best FA LT. He was not a top 10 guy, but he was good enough. The problem was he got $15M a year

I thought Ww was a 12/mm 3 yr guy.

Hawgdriver
03-18-2017, 07:46 PM
Ok, here it is.

http://overthecap.com/player/andrew-whitworth/159

MOtorboat
03-19-2017, 03:09 AM
Oh ******* Christ.

Right? 32 of 36. Dude was awful.

Hawgdriver
03-19-2017, 03:12 AM
Right? 32 of 36. Dude was awful.

lol, you guys just recycling to death the soundbite a Siemian supporter (me) spoonfed you. Get your own material, troglodytes.

MOtorboat
03-19-2017, 03:13 AM
lol, you guys just recycling to death the soundbite a Siemian supporter (me) spoonfed you. Get your own material, troglodytes.

Oh man.

Hawgdriver
03-19-2017, 03:14 AM
Oh man.

Am I wrong?

MOtorboat
03-19-2017, 03:16 AM
Am I wrong?

Do you work for PFF? If the answer is, no, the answer to your question is yes.

Hawgdriver
03-19-2017, 03:23 AM
Do you work for PFF? If the answer is, no, the answer to your question is yes.

Want me to link the original post on this message board that describes 32/36 that you fools parrot?

Valar Morghulis
03-19-2017, 03:26 AM
Want me to link the original post on this message board that describes 32/36 that you fools parrot?

Yes.

Then post comparitive starts to Andrew lucks second season.

Hawgdriver
03-19-2017, 03:27 AM
Yes.

Then post comparitive starts to Andrew lucks second season.

Well, I want me to link it too! But it ain't going to happen, dammit! I'm watching GSP fite another rednek and I'm lit af.

MOtorboat
03-19-2017, 09:45 AM
Yes.

Then post comparitive starts to Andrew lucks second season.

Trevor Siemian is not as good as Andrew Luck. He just isn't.

Valar Morghulis
03-19-2017, 10:21 AM
Oh I know, but if your using stats to say he is the 32 best quarterback, I could use stats to suggest that after both qbs second season in the league they were playing at a similar level.

MOtorboat
03-19-2017, 10:49 AM
Oh I know, but if your using stats to say he is the 32 best quarterback, I could use stats to suggest that after both qbs second season in the league they were playing at a similar level.

You could try. You'd be wrong considering Luck had 7,000 yards, 43 touchdowns, an appearance in the divisional round and an appearance in the AFC championship. But you could try.

Valar Morghulis
03-19-2017, 11:00 AM
lol in his second season he had 7000 yds....i am not talking total career stats you giant mongoloid!

i was being generous by going for his second season (since trev had all that experience running the scout team in his first year)

King87
03-19-2017, 11:06 AM
lol, you guys just recycling to death the soundbite a Siemian supporter (me) spoonfed you. Get your own material, troglodytes.

I gave you the following: the breakdown of his arm talent; his fragility; how he couldn't read defenses; how he read defenses worse than rookies; how he was scared to run at the end of the year; how he got a quarter of his season's production in one game; and the elephant in the room is that while the line wasn't good, he made the line worse not just for passing, but no one has to respect the run when QB can't make any damn plays.

He literally made every player on the offense worse.

MOtorboat
03-19-2017, 11:29 AM
lol in his second season he had 7000 yds....i am not talking total career stats you giant mongoloid!

i was being generous by going for his second season (since trev had all that experience running the scout team in his first year)

I would have gone with a different quarterback...

LawDog
03-19-2017, 11:34 AM
I gave you the following: the breakdown of his arm talent; his fragility; how he couldn't read defenses; how he read defenses worse than rookies; how he was scared to run at the end of the year; how he got a quarter of his season's production in one game; and the elephant in the room is that while the line wasn't good, he made the line worse not just for passing, but no one has to respect the run when QB can't make any damn plays.

He literally made every player on the offense worse.

Literally your worst post ever.

King87
03-19-2017, 11:34 AM
http://www.nfl.com/player/andrewluck/2533031/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/trevorsiemian/2553457/profile


BTW, Luck, as a rookie, had worse WR's, a worse line, worse RB talent, a WORSE line, and a worse defense.

King87
03-19-2017, 11:38 AM
Literally your worst post ever.

It's not my fault that people who support TS greatly overlook his flaws. And it's not my fault that pointing those things out irritates you. I get it, you don't like my posts about TS.

LawDog
03-19-2017, 11:43 AM
What I don't like is you having made Tony Romo your personal ball gag, and your insistence in wading into this cess pool of comparisons of the unknowables. It's a waste of time, yours and ours.

BroncoJoe
03-19-2017, 11:51 AM
This thread is worse than the politics section.

King87
03-19-2017, 11:52 AM
What I don't like is you having made Tony Romo your personal ball gag, and your insistence in wading into this cess pool of comparisons of the unknowables. It's a waste of time, yours and ours.


I have legitimate reasons for my stances, and the 'intellectual sins' that I'm committing are the same ones that TS proponents commit as well.

I'm not wasting anyone's time anymore than the same people that I argue with are wasting anyone's time.

LawDog
03-19-2017, 11:56 AM
I have legitimate reasons for my stances, and the 'intellectual sins' that I'm committing are the same ones that TS proponents commit as well.

I'm not wasting anyone's time anymore than the same people that I argue with are wasting anyone's time.

I will cease holding you to a higher standard... have fun in the mud with the other pigs.

King87
03-19-2017, 11:59 AM
I will cease holding you to a higher standard... have fun in the mud with the other pigs.

I'm so letdown I couldn't live up to arbitrary standards that I didn't know existed. I'm sorry?

Hawgdriver
03-19-2017, 12:09 PM
This thread is worse than the politics section.

:takeabow:

Mike
03-19-2017, 02:38 PM
Trolllollolllolll

spikerman
03-19-2017, 04:08 PM
Let's not fight. This board should be about love. Except for the Patriots fans. Screw those guys.

PatriotsGuy
03-19-2017, 04:40 PM
Let's not fight. This board should be about love. Except for the Patriots fans. Screw those guys.

Hey! I heard that!!

spikerman
03-19-2017, 04:45 PM
Hey! I heard that!!

You seem like a great guy, with one fatal flaw.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-19-2017, 04:51 PM
You seem like a great guy, with one fatal flaw.
Tragic

PatriotsGuy
03-20-2017, 09:06 AM
You seem like a great guy, with one fatal flaw.

My stunning personality?

MNPatsFan
03-20-2017, 09:54 AM
My stunning personality?I thought he meant your great sense of humor.

spikerman
03-20-2017, 04:15 PM
My stunning personality?

Ok, two. :D

Cugel
03-21-2017, 10:26 AM
Trevor Siemian is not as good as Andrew Luck. He just isn't.

Will it matter? With this craptastic OL shaping up to be about as bad as last year (Seriously? Donald Stephenson or rookie Ramczyk or Bolles at LT?) I'd say Trevor Siemian might not last very long into the season before he winds up on IR. He's not always going to be lucky enough to hurt his NON throwing shoulder.

Starting Trevor is looking a bit like he'll play the part of a Pinata this season. Tony Romo isn't coming here, but can you imagine how long he would last if he did? I wonder if he would last out September?

Trevor at least managed to play hurt. And he's going to have to do it again.

King87
03-21-2017, 10:29 AM
The 24th ranked line is not a death sentence. The line should improve this year - if for no other reason than the two guys we signed are really good against the run. If you can run the ball, even a little, you can take pressure off of the QB.

TS is also going to have to step up and identify defenses at the LoS. He's also going to have to stop holding onto the ball too long, and rectify his issues (at the end of the year) about not running when the situation calls for it.

The line should be about average. somewhere between 15-18.

turftoad
03-21-2017, 10:54 AM
Will it matter? With this craptastic OL shaping up to be about as bad as last year (Seriously? Donald Stephenson or rookie Ramczyk or Bolles at LT?) I'd say Trevor Siemian might not last very long into the season before he winds up on IR. He's not always going to be lucky enough to hurt his NON throwing shoulder.

Starting Trevor is looking a bit like he'll play the part of a Pinata this season. Tony Romo isn't coming here, but can you imagine how long he would last if he did? I wonder if he would last out September?

Trevor at least managed to play hurt. And he's going to have to do it again.

He'll have to win the starting job first.

King87
03-21-2017, 10:57 AM
He'll have to win the starting job first.

If Lynch wins the job man...Turf I might smile. For a whole minute.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-21-2017, 10:59 AM
The 24th ranked line is not a death sentence. The line should improve this year - if for no other reason than the two guys we signed are really good against the run. If you can run the ball, even a little, you can take pressure off of the QB.

TS is also going to have to step up and identify defenses at the LoS. He's also going to have to stop holding onto the ball too long, and rectify his issues (at the end of the year) about not running when the situation calls for it.

The line should be about average. somewhere between 15-18.

Do you mean he should have ran instead of holding the ball, or should have audibled to a run?

King87
03-21-2017, 11:03 AM
Do you mean he should have ran instead of holding the ball, or should have audibled to a run?

Shit. I promised to not post about TS as much since many find it upsetting.

I cannot answer this post, now, Al - forgive me.

Cugel
03-21-2017, 11:04 AM
The 24th ranked line is not a death sentence. The line should improve this year - if for no other reason than the two guys we signed are really good against the run. If you can run the ball, even a little, you can take pressure off of the QB.

TS is also going to have to step up and identify defenses at the LoS. He's also going to have to stop holding onto the ball too long, and rectify his issues (at the end of the year) about not running when the situation calls for it.

The line should be about average. somewhere between 15-18.

They were bottom feeders last year when they actually HAD a legitimate LT. Okung might not be great (he's certainly NOT a top 15 LT) but he got $13M a year for a reason. He wasn't nearly as horrible as the fans made out.

Now the Broncos don't have anybody at LT and all the top FA LTs are gone. It's easy to say "they'll find someone" but there's not a hint of a trade at this point according to Mike Klis and other Broncos beat reporters. The draft is coming up and it's looking more and more like Elway will just have to grit his teeth and draft a T at #20.

And that guy will be a rookie. Unless a rookie LT is just a total stud like Ryan Clady was he's going to suck pretty bad his rookie year. And that translates to a ton of sacks and QB pressures. Maybe your QB getting hurt, certainly a lot of turnovers.

We've seen that the last 3 years of course. But, at least Manning always had the presence of mind to self-sack when some defender came streaking past Michael Schofield giving him no chance.

Sure, if the OL is about as bad as last year they might scrape by. The team might win 8 or 9 games. And the Patriots are going to win 12 or 13 and the Broncos will have zero chance of winning the AFC under that scenario.

Unless the Broncos manage to land some kind of blockbuster trade that nobody really expects at this point, it's going to be a LOOOOoong season. Just realism. The Raiders and Chiefs were both 3 games better than the Broncos last year. At best the Broncos are marginally better than they were (Leary is a good upgrade, Peko (both) should be useful additions, and Watson is a nice RT if he's healthy).

But, no veteran LT is a horrible gaping wound on this team that makes it impossible to be very optimistic. If Elway pulls it off I will be the first to cheer.

But, it's not looking good as of now.

King87
03-21-2017, 11:07 AM
Okung was below average - finding someone below average is not hard, man. I'm just saying, Cugel.

turftoad
03-21-2017, 11:08 AM
If Lynch wins the job man...Turf I might smile. For a whole minute.

Me too buddy, me too.

MOtorboat
03-21-2017, 01:37 PM
$13 million for a bottom-15 left tackle. I just want to, again, praise John Elway for not being an idiot.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-21-2017, 02:05 PM
$13 million for a bottom-15 left tackle. I just want to, again, praise John Elway for not being an idiot.

Being hamstrung by a player who doesn't perform is bad for a franchise.

NightTerror218
03-21-2017, 05:47 PM
Crappy teams overpay in FA. That is how it has always been. As long as you can fill holes in FA and have a good core group then you have a good team. You never see patriots, seattle, steelers, ect. Never going after the big names or over pay new FA.

Cugel
03-31-2017, 07:25 PM
Crappy teams overpay in FA. That is how it has always been. As long as you can fill holes in FA and have a good core group then you have a good team. You never see patriots, seattle, steelers, ect. Never going after the big names or over pay new FA.

The Patriots are a special case because they have Tom Brady and are in the AFC Championship Game every single damn year. Players actually take less $ to play for the Patriots in order to win a Championship, just the way some players (DeMarcus Ware, Emmanuel Sanders) did to come to the Broncos and play with Peyton Manning.

But, those days are long gone. #18 ain't coming back and you have not seen any players taking pay cuts to come to Denver now. They wanted to pay Okung $8M a year and he said "no thanks, I'll go to the Chargers and take $13M." They tried to convince Calais Campbell to take $13M to come to Denver and he said "no thanks, I'll go play for the Jacksonville suckwads and make $15M a year."

So, maybe if you have a Hall of Fame QB you can get FAs to take less money, but Denver isn't that team any more.

It's easy to say Elway was smart not to "overpay" for a "mediocre" LT in Okung, but wait till Siemian gets crushed by Justin Houston or Joey Bosa! You'll be singing a different tune then! You'll be wailing "why didn't the Broncos get a legitimate LT!"

Cugel
03-31-2017, 07:28 PM
Being hamstrung by a player who doesn't perform is bad for a franchise.

Well, will it make you feel better if Trevor Siemian has his arm ripped off by Khalil Mack and tossed into the South Stands to think "Boy I sure am glad that Ty Sambrailo or the Suck-Tastic Donald Stephenson is our starting LT! At least Elway didn't overpay for Russell Okung!" ?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-31-2017, 07:38 PM
Well, will it make you feel better if Trevor Siemian has his arm ripped off by Khalil Mack and tossed into the South Stands to think "Boy I sure am glad that Ty Sambrailo or the Suck-Tastic Donald Stephenson is our starting LT! At least Elway didn't overpay for Russell Okung!" ?

The thought of that doesn't appeal to me, not today anyway.

I believe Okung is a jag. I think we can fill the role someone for half the price and they'll play just as well. I just don't know who that is yet.

Timmy!
03-31-2017, 07:53 PM
Somebody buy Cugel an Okung jersey already.

Cugel
04-01-2017, 02:41 PM
Somebody buy Cugel an Okung jersey already.

What is wrong with you? I have to buy his jersey because I think mediocre is better than total suck-ness?

"I have played on some great offenses [Seahawks] who had a pretty bad OL. Normally that only happens if you have a great QB [plus Marshawn Lynch] but I have never seen a team with a really good offense that had a bad LT in the NFL." -- Tyler Polumbus.

King87
04-01-2017, 02:46 PM
Man, Polumbus is not a really smart guy.

Cugel
04-01-2017, 02:54 PM
The thought of that doesn't appeal to me, not today anyway.

I believe Okung is a jag. I think we can fill the role someone for half the price and they'll play just as well. I just don't know who that is yet.

You are not alone. Nobody knows where that adequate, not totally terrible, LT is coming from. Maybe the Broncos do a trade, but that's becoming more and more unlikely as time passes. There's been no talk of a trade, from anybody connected with the team. So it would come like a bolt out of the blue at this point. Doesn't look like it will happen.

And FA came and went and NO starting LT. They got a RT who has been hurt and missed over half his NFL career over 4 seasons, but IF (big IF) he stays healthy, he could be a decent RT.

They got a LG. Hurrah! That's an upgrade, no doubt.

NO LT. The draft is coming up but not only is this the worst LT class in decades (according to NFL draft experts), NONE of them is expected to start day 1 of his rookie year. The best LT in this class is reported to be Cam Robinson of Alabama. Here's the scouting report on him:


3/25/17: There is a fair amount of debate about Robinson for the NFL. One team said they had Robinson as a top-15 pick and believe that he is a Russell Okung- or Ryan Clady-caliber left tackle for the next level. Another playoff team graded Robinson late in the first round. That organization thinks a team could get by with him at left tackle, but ideally, Robinson would be a right tackle. One NFC team gave Robinson a second-round grade. That team said Robinson could have problems with speed rushers if on the blind side. They said they project him similarly to Tampa Bay's second-year left tackle Donovan Smith. This is a weak tackle draft though, so Robinson will probably go in the top-25 picks.
Read more at http://walterfootball.com/draft2017OT.php#KLXC4sdr6flkaJqR.99

As perhaps the best LT in the draft he is now expected to be GONE by the time the Broncos draft at #20. And the best you can say about him is that he's another Russell Okung? If he was really another Ryan Clady, he'd be drafted in the top 5, probably top 3. Clady was taken at #12 after all, not #20.

See what I mean guys?

None of these guys is going to come to Denver and they just throw him in at LT and he starts and is Ryan Clady. IF they start a rookie LT it's going to be a Loooong-ass year of watching Trevor Siemian pick himself up off the ground and check to see if he still has all his body parts!

It's not that we don't know WHO the LT will be. It's that it's almost impossible to tell WHERE they will even get one. Trade? The word out of Dove Valley is that there's no trade in the works. And frankly, there's no reason to hide it if they were looking to trade. Every other team they called would know after all. And they wouldn't keep it secret. Within hours, every NFL GM would know "the Broncos just called team X about a trade for a starting LT and the offered a 2nd round pick." Or something.

Cugel
04-01-2017, 02:57 PM
Man, Polumbus is not a really smart guy.

Smarter than you apparently. :coffee:

King87
04-01-2017, 03:20 PM
Smarter than you apparently. :coffee:

If he can't think of any teams with a good offense that lacks a LT, and he whiffs on who the good LTs are, and he claims to be an insider but he's not actually an insider, and he was a horrible NFL player, and is a horrible analyst overall, and pretty much isn't good at anything....no.

Here are two teams with prolific offenses over the past several years, and here's a spoiler alert...neither of them have an elite LT: Arizona and Pittsburgh.

#rebuttalgod
#betterthanPolumbus
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#Iamyourgod
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#style
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#doyourealizethatOkungwasinthebottomhalfofLT's?
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#eatmypoop

NightTerror218
04-01-2017, 04:14 PM
You are not alone. Nobody knows where that adequate, not totally terrible, LT is coming from. Maybe the Broncos do a trade, but that's becoming more and more unlikely as time passes. There's been no talk of a trade, from anybody connected with the team. So it would come like a bolt out of the blue at this point. Doesn't look like it will happen.

And FA came and went and NO starting LT. They got a RT who has been hurt and missed over half his NFL career over 4 seasons, but IF (big IF) he stays healthy, he could be a decent RT.

They got a LG. Hurrah! That's an upgrade, no doubt.

NO LT. The draft is coming up but not only is this the worst LT class in decades (according to NFL draft experts), NONE of them is expected to start day 1 of his rookie year. The best LT in this class is reported to be Cam Robinson of Alabama. Here's the scouting report on him:



As perhaps the best LT in the draft he is now expected to be GONE by the time the Broncos draft at #20. And the best you can say about him is that he's another Russell Okung? If he was really another Ryan Clady, he'd be drafted in the top 5, probably top 3. Clady was taken at #12 after all, not #20.

See what I mean guys?

None of these guys is going to come to Denver and they just throw him in at LT and he starts and is Ryan Clady. IF they start a rookie LT it's going to be a Loooong-ass year of watching Trevor Siemian pick himself up off the ground and check to see if he still has all his body parts!

It's not that we don't know WHO the LT will be. It's that it's almost impossible to tell WHERE they will even get one. Trade? The word out of Dove Valley is that there's no trade in the works. And frankly, there's no reason to hide it if they were looking to trade. Every other team they called would know after all. And they wouldn't keep it secret. Within hours, every NFL GM would know "the Broncos just called team X about a trade for a starting LT and the offered a 2nd round pick." Or something.

some nfl temas see him as a G. He was questioned about playing guard at combine. And his stock has been sliding since the last bowl game. He started off as #1 rated tackle and OL. He is now #3 T and maybe.....maybe still in top 5 for OL.

Cugel
04-21-2017, 10:48 AM
some nfl temas see him as a G. He was questioned about playing guard at combine. And his stock has been sliding since the last bowl game. He started off as #1 rated tackle and OL. He is now #3 T and maybe.....maybe still in top 5 for OL.

I've heard exactly the same thing. Teams seem to have varied opinions about how Cam Robinson projects as an NFL player. I don't know, but it looks more like Garett Bolles of Utah is possibly the pick at "#20. He's also said to be quite raw, but has the potential to be good. He's also 25 so maybe more mature and NFL ready from an emotional standpoint but his age is also a detriment.

He's a 25 year old man playing against boys in college. He should probably be dominating them more than he did. Perhaps though the scouts see a guy who can be moulded into a quality starting LT at the next level. Looks like a bit of a project if that's their expectation though.

Hawgdriver
04-21-2017, 12:54 PM
I'll bet Cam Robinson ends up as an all-pro guard in the NFL.

Cugel
04-21-2017, 06:05 PM
I'll bet Cam Robinson ends up as an all-pro guard in the NFL.

You're in good company with that opinion. Lots of NFL draft experts think the same thing - which is reportedly why he's been slipping down draft boards. Projected starting Left Tackles get taken high in the first round. Guards not so much.