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LTC Pain
02-23-2017, 01:19 PM
Just now on PFT. Per Jay Glazer of Fox Sports:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/02/23/report-broncos-wont-pick-up-option-on-russell-okung/

VonDoom
02-23-2017, 01:26 PM
I wouldn't mind him back here on some kind of restructured deal, just because we have enough moving parts on the line as it is. But he's not worth the $20.5 million guaranteed that would kick in if we picked it up. Gives us around $43 million to work with now, but of course, we now need a new LT.

Cugel
02-23-2017, 01:29 PM
Of course the Broncos aren't going to pick up Okung's contract at this point, but they have several weeks before they have to decide, so I doubt Elway even knows at this point.

If they can engineer a trade for a LT like Kelvin Beachum, they won't have to pay Okung. But, if not, they could be forced to do it.

So, this report is pretty much garbage at this point. Jay Glazer was the idiot who was close to John Fox and broke the news that Fox wouldn't be back -- the very morning of the playoff game against the Colts which Fox then proceeded to tank! I doubt he's particularly close to Elway though after that fiasco!

Elway is certainly not telling reporters right now what his plans are, and it's unlikely he even knows, since FA hasn't begun yet and it's uncertain whether he can sign a FA LT or not. He might like a guy, and get out-bid or the target might just sign with another team for instance.

Ziggy
02-23-2017, 01:31 PM
Looks like Elway is on a mission to completely rebuild that line. Bring in Reilly Rief in FA and let him and a rookie tackle battle it out for the left tackle spot. Loser moves to RT.

Cugel
02-23-2017, 01:34 PM
Looks like Elway is on a mission to completely rebuild that line. Bring in Reilly Rief in FA and let him and a rookie tackle battle it out for the left tackle spot. Loser moves to RT.

Looks like Jay Glazer is full of hot air again, which is not unusual for him. How can he know anything at this point when we haven't even started FA? Elway has several weeks to decide what to do about Okung and he doesn't have another starting LT on the roster. He might get rid of Okung, but only if he can find someone else at least as good who's cheaper.

Riley Reiff for instance is no upgrade: "OT, Lions. Age: 28. (http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2017OT.php#vAF8PhXMph2dBXCT.99)

"Riley Reiff was moved to right tackle this season after the Lions spent their 2016 first-round pick on Taylor Decker. Reiff has been a pretty average blocker throughout his career despite being a former first-round selection himself."

In short, Reiff was a bust at LT, so the Lions moved him to RT, and had to use a #1 pick on a LT, which no team wants to do! (I.e. waste multiple 1st round picks on the same position). Now he's overpaid for a RT so they are cutting him loose.

Pass. :coffee:

MOtorboat
02-23-2017, 01:35 PM
Of course the Broncos aren't going to pick up Okung's contract at this point, but they have several weeks before they have to decide, so I doubt Elway even knows at this point.

If they can engineer a trade for a LT like Kelvin Beachum, they won't have to pay Okung. But, if not, they could be forced to do it.

So, this report is pretty much garbage at this point. Jay Glazer was the idiot who was close to John Fox and broke the news that Fox wouldn't be back -- the very morning of the playoff game against the Colts which Fox then proceeded to tank! I doubt he's particularly close to Elway though after that fiasco!

Elway is certainly not telling reporters right now what his plans are, and it's unlikely he even knows, since FA hasn't begun yet and it's uncertain whether he can sign a FA LT or not. He might like a guy, and get out-bid or the target might just sign with another team for instance.

This is a picture of a circle:

http://www.drodd.com/images15/circle31.jpg

MOtorboat
02-23-2017, 01:35 PM
Looks like Jay Glazer is full of hot air again, which is not unusual for him. How can he know anything at this point when we haven't even started FA? Elway has several weeks to decide what to do about Okung and he doesn't have another starting LT on the roster. He might get rid of Okung, but only if he can find someone else at least as good who's cheaper.

You understand why Elway can't wait for free agency to make the decision, correct? We've been over this, already.

MOtorboat
02-23-2017, 01:42 PM
Cameron Wolfe also reporting it. He's probably an idiot who couldn't possibly know anything too, right Cugel?

BeefStew25
02-23-2017, 01:42 PM
I drove Glazer around for a week in '98. He's a great guy. He doesn't miss much.

Cugel
02-23-2017, 01:46 PM
You understand why Elway can't wait for free agency to make the decision, correct? We've been over this, already.

No. He can try and trade for Kelvin Beachum at the Combine next week, THEN make a decision. If he lands a trade he can let Okung go. If not, he can decide what to do then. Obviously he doesn't want to pay Okung $11M. But, that's not the question. The question is "what's the alternative?" Is there someone out there better? Or at least better value?

Andrew Whitworth for instance? He's been good, but he's 35 and former Broncos T Tyler Polumbus says he can barely move at all. And how much would he cost? How much longer can he play?

Sebastian Vollmer 33 yrs. old? The Pats are cutting him loose which isn't a good sign, since Belichick normally takes in older players, gets a couple seasons worth out of them, and then cuts them when they're used up. Then some team swoops in and signs the guy and usually finds out he can't play anymore.

I don't know that Vollmer is washed up, but I don't trust Pats retreads.

The oft-injured Matt Kalil? He's 28, but his injury history is pretty bad. Pass.

Browns RT Adam Pasztor? He's a RT, and played pretty mediocre.

Ryan Clady whom the Jets turned loose after 1 season? He hasn't played a full season in the last 5 years, except 2014 when he was pretty bad for much of the season. He keeps hurting his left knee. Pass.

King87
02-23-2017, 01:51 PM
You understand why Elway can't wait for free agency to make the decision, correct? We've been over this, already.

Fill me in, please.

Cugel
02-23-2017, 01:52 PM
I drove Glazer around for a week in '98. He's a great guy. He doesn't miss much.

I don't care if you like the guy. Do you really believe that Elway is talking to that stiff and telling him what his plans are? Especially when Elway can't know exactly what his plans are at this point anyway? He might be able to swing a trade for a guy or he might not. He might have a good lead on a potential FA prospect or he might not.

And I don't believe he's telling Jay Glazer anything right now.

As for the disreputable part that Glazer played in making sure his buddy John Fox got the Chicago Bears job I hate Glazer! He made sure to break the report that Fox was not going to be in Denver the next season - just ahead of the Colts playoff game. Fox & Glazer did that in order to make sure that the Bears realized that Fox was on the way out of Denver so they wouldn't sign another coach.

They got the message. Then Fox went out and tanked the playoff game and he and his coaches all cleared out their lockers and went off to other jobs in the NFL. It was all very dirty. They didn't want to win that game because it would have meant he couldn't interview for his next job until after the Broncos playoff run. And the Bears might not have waited.

As Elway said there was no "kicking and screaming" the team just lay down in the playoffs and mailed it in.

VonDoom
02-23-2017, 01:52 PM
Every beat writer is reporting it. I'm not sure why you doubt the validity of the statement. They're saying Okung was told the Broncos aren't picking up the option. That's not a rumor, that's fact.

BTW, Beachum was cut and is a FA

dogfish
02-23-2017, 01:56 PM
Every beat writer is reporting it. I'm not sure why you doubt the validity of the statement. They're saying Okung was told the Broncos aren't picking up the option. That's not a rumor, that's fact.

BTW, Beachum was cut and is a FA

cugel won't believe it 'til he hears it from the insiders at 104.3TheFan. . .

BeefStew25
02-23-2017, 01:57 PM
I don't care if you like the guy. Do you really believe that Elway is talking to that stiff and telling him what his plans are? Especially when Elway can't know exactly what his plans are at this point anyway? He might be able to swing a trade for a guy or he might not. He might have a good lead on a potential FA prospect or he might not.

And I don't believe he's telling Jay Glazer anything right now.

As for the disreputable part that Glazer played in making sure his buddy John Fox got the Chicago Bears job I hate Glazer! He made sure to break the report that Fox was not going to be in Denver the next season - just ahead of the Colts playoff game. Fox & Glazer did that in order to make sure that the Bears realized that Fox was on the way out of Denver so they wouldn't sign another coach.

They got the message. Then Fox went out and tanked the playoff game and he and his coaches all cleared out their lockers and went off to other jobs in the NFL. It was all very dirty. They didn't want to win that game because it would have meant he couldn't interview for his next job until after the Broncos playoff run. And the Bears might not have waited.

How old are you?

Hawgdriver
02-23-2017, 01:59 PM
This is a picture of a circle:

http://www.drodd.com/images15/circle31.jpg

Let's discuss this figure, we really haven't done justice to it. For example...what would the universe look like if light was actually travelling in a circle, rather than from A to B?

MOtorboat
02-23-2017, 02:01 PM
Fill me in, please.

He has to make the decision before March 8. Free agency starts the next day. Last day of the league's 2016 season and the first day of the league's 2017 season.

Cugel
02-23-2017, 02:01 PM
Basically this story isn't news anyway. Of course the Broncos aren't thrilled to pick up Okung's deal. That's been known since he signed it! The question is:

1. Will the Broncos re-negotiate with Okung a more cap-friendly deal or cut him loose? The article just assumes they cut him, but that's certainly not a given.

2. Can they trade for a LT like Kelvin Beachum ahead of FA? If so, then Okung becomes expendable and there's no chance they bring him back. If not then do they like the FAs available?

If so then Okung becomes expendable. If not or if they don't think they can find anybody then they have to keep him.

BeefStew25
02-23-2017, 02:01 PM
Let's discuss this figure, we really haven't done justice to it. For example...what would the universe look like if light was actually travelling in a circle, rather than from A to B?

It helped Matthew McConahay get back to his living room faster.

MOtorboat
02-23-2017, 02:03 PM
Let's discuss this figure, we really haven't done justice to it. For example...what would the universe look like if light was actually travelling in a circle, rather than from A to B?

There would be perpetual shadows in certain places and life as we know it probably wouldn't exist?

BeefStew25
02-23-2017, 02:04 PM
There would be perpetual shadows in certain places and life as we know it probably wouldn't exist?

Aren't you used to perpetual shadows?

MOtorboat
02-23-2017, 02:04 PM
Physics isn't my strong suit.

Like Cugel and off-season actions.

MOtorboat
02-23-2017, 02:04 PM
Aren't you used to perpetual shadows?

Only around giants.

slim
02-23-2017, 02:05 PM
Basically this story isn't news anyway. Of course the Broncos aren't thrilled to pick up Okung's deal. That's been known since he signed it! The question is:

1. Will the Broncos re-negotiate with Okung a more cap-friendly deal or cut him loose? The article just assumes they cut him, but that's certainly not a given.

2. Can they trade for a LT like Kelvin Beachum ahead of FA? If so, then Okung becomes expendable and there's no chance they bring him back. If not then do they like the FAs available?

If so then Okung becomes expendable. If not or if they don't think they can find anybody then they have to keep him.

Yeah, except they aren't going to keep him.

Keep trying, though.

Cugel
02-23-2017, 02:05 PM
cugel won't believe it 'til he hears it from the insiders at 104.3TheFan. . .

I'll believe it if I see some sign Elway is bringing in or planning to bring in a FA LT or trade for one. That will mean he's given up on re-negotiating Okung's contract or has a replacement in mind.

If they can find someone better of course they let him go. He's not an All-Pro by any means. He's a barely adequate T - good to great Run blocker, but lost a step in pass-pro so he's a liability against quicker DEs. If they can find someone better - great! Don't let the door hit you on your way out of town Okung!

And at $11 M this season he'd be seriously overpaid. So, picking up his option only makes sense if they can't find anybody better.

And that remains a serious possibility.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-23-2017, 02:05 PM
Troy RenckVerified account‏@TroyRenck 23m

Okung would have made sense, IMO, at last yr's $8 million. But he had no incentive to restructure given weak LT market. @DenverChannel

Troy RenckVerified account‏@TroyRenck 23m

Okung told today #Broncos not exercising four-year, $48-mil option. They were not expected to. Had until March 8 to decide. @DenverChannel

LawDog
02-23-2017, 02:07 PM
It helped Matthew McConahay get back to his living room faster.

He wasn't actually IN his living room (actually it was a bedroom too, but that's irrelevant to the point), he was just able to view it from another point in time. Also he was able to view a specific point in time in his house where he was able to influence a decision that had already been made. It gets confusing but that's quantum mechanics and time travel for you...

MOtorboat
02-23-2017, 02:08 PM
I'll believe it if I see some sign Elway is bringing in or planning to bring in a FA LT or trade for one. That will mean he's given up on re-negotiating Okung's contract or has a replacement in mind.

If they can find someone better of course they let him go. He's not an All-Pro by any means. He's a barely adequate T - good to great Run blocker, but lost a step in pass-pro so he's a liability against quicker DEs. If they can find someone better - great! Don't let the door hit you on your way out of town Okung!

And at $11 M this season he'd be seriously overpaid. So, picking up his option only makes sense if they can't find anybody better.

And that remains a serious possibility.

I hear they are going with only four linemen next season. Revamping the offense.

Cugel
02-23-2017, 02:09 PM
Yeah, except they aren't going to keep him.

Keep trying, though.

Glad to hear Elway is keeping you informed of his decisions on a regular basis. Keep up the good work. :coffee:

BeefStew25
02-23-2017, 02:09 PM
He wasn't actually IN his living room (actually it was a bedroom too, but that's irrelevant to the point), he was just able to view it from another point in time. Also he was able to view a specific point in time in his house where he was able to influence a decision that had already been made. It gets confusing but that's quantum mechanics and time travel for you...

He was in the goddam walls ok

Cugel
02-23-2017, 02:09 PM
I hear they are going with only four linemen next season. Revamping the offense.

Yeah. Lynch is just going to take the ball and sprint to his right on every play. Sounds OK to me.

slim
02-23-2017, 02:10 PM
Glad to hear Elway is keeping you informed of his decisions on a regular basis. Keep up the good work. :coffee:

I'm sorry you spent all morning banging out posts about how the Broncos have no choice but to keep him.

It sounded like BS even before this news came out...just an FYI.

Hawgdriver
02-23-2017, 02:14 PM
There would be perpetual shadows in certain places and life as we know it probably wouldn't exist?

In that case, I want to meet a girl from "certain places." She'd be fun at a full moon party.

slim
02-23-2017, 02:14 PM
What is a full moon party?

LawDog
02-23-2017, 02:16 PM
I'm sorry you spent all morning banging out posts about how the Broncos have no choice but to keep him.

It sounded like BS even before this news came out...just an FYI.

From my point of view, the only certainty was that Elway had no choice but to decline to pick up the option. Everything else, including signing Okung to a new deal (even if that were to happen before March 8) remains a choice that Elway has in front of him. Okung was holding an unsuited 8-10 and the flop was A-K-7. Elway is holding a Jacks or better pair. Exercising the option would have been Elway folding before the turn.

VonDoom
02-23-2017, 02:17 PM
I hear they are going with only four linemen next season. Revamping the offense.

Worked for Belichick in that one game.

slim
02-23-2017, 02:18 PM
From my point of view, the only certainty was that Elway had no choice but to decline to pick up the option. Everything else, including signing Okung to a new deal (even if that were to happen before March 8) remains a choice that Elway has in front of him. Okung was holding an unsuited 8-10 and the flop was A-K-7. Elway is holding a Jacks or better pair. Exercising the option would have been Elway folding before the turn.

I don't play poker, but I agree with your first two sentences.

VonDoom
02-23-2017, 02:19 PM
Basically this story isn't news anyway. Of course the Broncos aren't thrilled to pick up Okung's deal. That's been known since he signed it! The question is:

1. Will the Broncos re-negotiate with Okung a more cap-friendly deal or cut him loose? The article just assumes they cut him, but that's certainly not a given.

2. Can they trade for a LT like Kelvin Beachum ahead of FA? If so, then Okung becomes expendable and there's no chance they bring him back. If not then do they like the FAs available?

If so then Okung becomes expendable. If not or if they don't think they can find anybody then they have to keep him.

With us declining the option, he will test FA. There's always a (slim) chance he's back, but this is akin to cutting him. If they had been working on renegotiating a deal before FA, we would have heard about it by now (or they would have waited longer to let him go).

I don't know why you keep bringing up trading for Beachum - he was cut and is a FA, just like Okung is now.

Bronco4ever
02-23-2017, 02:28 PM
Not surprised. Keeping him would be the "safe" thing to do, but Elway doesn't play it safe and bring back over priced average players. Elway is going to do what he needs to make the team better and not just go the safe route. I like the idea of having more money to play with. In JFE we trust!

Hawgdriver
02-23-2017, 02:32 PM
What is a full moon party?

I'm not sure, but apparently you get to rail hippies there (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/284513-Random-thoughts-thread/page884?p=2593231#post2593231).

Denver Native (Carol)
02-23-2017, 03:16 PM
The Denver Broncos have informed offensive tackle Russell Okung that they will not pick up his option, sources confirmed to ESPN.

If the Broncos had exercised their $1 million option on Okung, he could have earned up to $48 million over another four years.

Okung, 29, had a $1 million option bonus due between the fifth day after the Super Bowl (Feb. 10) and the first day of the league year (March 9). If that option was exercised, his 2017 ($2 million) and 2018 base salaries ($9.5 million) would have become fully guaranteed.

He also was due a roster bonus of $8 million on 10th day of league year. In addition, he was due a roster bonus of $93,750 every game in 2017 that he was on the 46-man active roster.

The Broncos save $10.9 million against their salary cap this season by not exercising the option.

Okung, a first-round draft pick, played with the Seahawks from 2010 to 2015 and was a part of Seattle's 2013 championship team. He signed with the Broncos in 2016.

The Broncos' decision was first reported by Fox Sports.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18749746/denver-broncos-tell-russell-okung-pick-option

VonDoom
02-23-2017, 03:19 PM
Mike KlisVerified account‏@MikeKlis 42m42 minutes ago

There had been internal discussions Broncos would want Okung back at severe cut to play RT, but unlikely as he will test market. #9sports

Mike KlisVerified account‏@MikeKlis 38m38 minutes ago

Bengals OT Andrew Whitworth may be among FAs Broncos may target as they switch to power scheme. Vance Joseph with CIN in 2014-15 #9sports

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-23-2017, 03:20 PM
RT? Slap him in the face on the way out the door?

Shazam!
02-23-2017, 05:27 PM
Were the people who broke this story the same people that suggested Denver was a possible home for Jay Cutler?

Timmy!
02-23-2017, 05:42 PM
I have uncovered footage of Cugel from today:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/98/89/5c/98895c658517f430480e797f98c4a903.gif

NightTerror218
02-23-2017, 11:45 PM
Whitworth beachum and reiff seem like some of the top LT options.

Reiff was nit a bad LT but decker fell to Detroits lap. So why not snag him.

King87
02-23-2017, 11:57 PM
Whitworth all day, bitches.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-10-bets-offensive-linemen-heading-into-next-season/

At age 35, Whitworth may not be a long-term solution at this point. However, at worst, he can be an exceptional short-term answer for teams needing help at the tackle position. Whitworth has graded among the top-10 tackles for eight consecutive seasons, and his best play has actually come in recent years, as he’s ranked among the top-five tackles for the last four seasons. He remains one of the better pass-protecting left tackles, having allowed just 14 total QB pressures last season. Even though it may only be for a limited time, Whitworth could be a difference-maker for a playoff contender.

Sign him. Get that man a ring! GET THAT MAN A RING!

Traveler
02-24-2017, 04:32 AM
As we all hope Elway makes a splash in FA for the OL, I still suspect he will keep to his tendency and go bargain basement hunting for players. With the exception of Vasquez and Clady, when has Elway ever put money into the OL position? Not going to get my hopes up until I see him actually goes against his norm of not allocating major dollars to the trenches on offense.

VonDoom
02-24-2017, 07:21 AM
As we all hope Elway makes a splash in FA for the OL, I still suspect he will keep to his tendency and go bargain basement hunting for players. With the exception of Vasquez and Clady, when has Elway ever put money into the OL position? Not going to get my hopes up until I see him actually goes against his norm of not allocating major dollars to the trenches on offense.

I think he goes big for at least one OL. Not sure who, or even if it will be a T or a G (though OT is a bigger need, certainly after letting Okung go). The problem is that there are only so many top tier guys out there and plenty of teams that need help, so we're all looking at the same few guys.

Timmy!
02-24-2017, 07:50 AM
Whitworth all day, bitches.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-10-bets-offensive-linemen-heading-into-next-season/

At age 35, Whitworth may not be a long-term solution at this point. However, at worst, he can be an exceptional short-term answer for teams needing help at the tackle position. Whitworth has graded among the top-10 tackles for eight consecutive seasons, and his best play has actually come in recent years, as he’s ranked among the top-five tackles for the last four seasons. He remains one of the better pass-protecting left tackles, having allowed just 14 total QB pressures last season. Even though it may only be for a limited time, Whitworth could be a difference-maker for a playoff contender.

Sign him. Get that man a ring! GET THAT MAN A RING!

Make this happen. 2 years, all we need.

Traveler
02-24-2017, 08:38 AM
Make this happen. 2 years, all we need.


Don't see Elway spending major FA money on a LT that isn't under 30 years old.

slim
02-24-2017, 10:12 AM
Whitworth all day, bitches.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro...o-next-season/

At age 35, Whitworth may not be a long-term solution at this point. However, at worst, he can be an exceptional short-term answer for teams needing help at the tackle position. Whitworth has graded among the top-10 tackles for eight consecutive seasons, and his best play has actually come in recent years, as he’s ranked among the top-five tackles for the last four seasons. He remains one of the better pass-protecting left tackles, having allowed just 14 total QB pressures last season. Even though it may only be for a limited time, Whitworth could be a difference-maker for a playoff contender.

Sign him. Get that man a ring! GET THAT MAN A RING!

King is smart.

dogfish
02-24-2017, 12:33 PM
As we all hope Elway makes a splash in FA for the OL, I still suspect he will keep to his tendency and go bargain basement hunting for players. With the exception of Vasquez and Clady, when has Elway ever put money into the OL position? Not going to get my hopes up until I see him actually goes against his norm of not allocating major dollars to the trenches on offense.

remember the last time we had a need this glaring? he signed Dware, talib and ward. . . not saying he's gonna go that HAM on the line, but no way he's going to sit on his hands with about 40 million in cap space available. . . i think you can go ahead and just pencil in at least one big OL signing. . .

Joel
02-24-2017, 04:18 PM
Let's discuss this figure, we really haven't done justice to it. For example...what would the universe look like if light was actually travelling in a circle, rather than from A to B?
You make it sound like light traveling in a circle and from A to B are mutually exclusive. They're not, so the answer is "pretty freaky-normal, because it does (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_laser)."

Remember: Guns don't kill people, physics kills people.

Joel
02-24-2017, 04:29 PM
As we all hope Elway makes a splash in FA for the OL, I still suspect he will keep to his tendency and go bargain basement hunting for players. With the exception of Vasquez and Clady, when has Elway ever put money into the OL position? Not going to get my hopes up until I see him actually goes against his norm of not allocating major dollars to the trenches on offense.


Don't see Elway spending major FA money on a LT that isn't under 30 years old.
I wish you all the luck you need with that argument on this site: You just implied our Duke and Savior COULD be capable of ERROR—or even already COMMITTED one. That's not just blasphemy, it's ignorance of how the NFL works. Everyone knows HCs hand select every single FA and draft pick, while GMs just sign all the checks (including the HCs.) Except for trivial things 1st round QBsotF; a HC who used to BE an NFL QB before being an NFL QBs coach couldn't possibly know that position as well as all the positions he's NEVER directly coached, so no GM in their right mind would let one interfere with that (but will rubber stamp all his 7th round QBs.)

I'd ask if you even watch the games, but it's self-evident you don't. :tsk: Anyway, FAs no one wants or the 10th rookie at a position have HoF written all over them.

Slick
02-24-2017, 04:31 PM
I wish you all the luck you need with that argument on this site: You just implied our Duke and Savior COULD be capable of ERROR—or even already COMMITTED one. That's not just blasphemy, it's ignorance of how the NFL works. Everyone knows HCs hand select every single FA and draft pick, while GMs just sign all the checks (including the HCs.) Except for trivial things 1st round QBsotF; a HC who used to BE an NFL QB before being an NFL QBs coach couldn't possibly know that position as well as all the positions he's NEVER directly coached, so no GM in their right mind would let one interfere with that (but will rubber stamp all his 7th round QBs.)

I'd ask if you even watch the games, but it's self-evident you don't. :tsk: Anyway, FAs no one wants or the 10th rookie at a position have HoF written all over them.

Oh come on Joel.

Joel
02-24-2017, 05:01 PM
Oh come on Joel.
What? He's beating the same line drum I always beat, and doing it the same fatalistic certainty and reproach: No matter how bad the line gets—and it's TERRIBLE—Elway doesn't invest in it and never has, and citing the occasional 3rd round OT, 5th round G and $2M/yr FA as if they refute rather than PROVE the argument is just orange-colored glasses. Call them "line investments" is like calling scratch offs "retirement investments."

NightTerror218
02-24-2017, 05:06 PM
I could see whitworth receiving a ware type contract. Kots of guarentees but overall cap friendly. While he spends more for a younger player like zeitler.

Hawgdriver
02-24-2017, 06:20 PM
You make it sound like light traveling in a circle and from A to B are mutually exclusive. They're not, so the answer is "pretty freaky-normal, because it does (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_laser)."

Remember: Guns don't kill people, physics kills people.

Well duh.

But this ain't about this.

10202

It's deeper, man. It's looking at it from the photon's perspective and pretending the time dimension doesn't exist. Hard to explain.

Joel
02-25-2017, 09:02 AM
Well duh.

But this ain't about this.

10202

It's deeper, man. It's looking at it from the photon's perspective and pretending the time dimension doesn't exist. Hard to explain.
Are we "through the looking glass here, people?" Because, y'know... photons do that, at least partly.

Conceiving time as a spatial dimension is always problematic, because unless space is fundamentally, eternally, static it must always have a change component, be that the 4th of 3 dimensions or 14th of 13. If space IS fundamentally static it's a fait accompli, sp all our mental gymnastics are as masturbatory as they are illusory.

I submit that your mere ability to consider it proves dynamism exists at SOME level. This may all just be a scripted film, but not a still life portrait.

Hawgdriver
02-25-2017, 01:03 PM
Are we "through the looking glass here, people?" Because, y'know... photons do that, at least partly.

Conceiving time as a spatial dimension is always problematic, because unless space is fundamentally, eternally, static it must always have a change component, be that the 4th of 3 dimensions or 14th of 13. If space IS fundamentally static it's a fait accompli, sp all our mental gymnastics are as masturbatory as they are illusory.

I submit that your mere ability to consider it proves dynamism exists at SOME level. This may all just be a scripted film, but not a still life portrait.

https://media.giphy.com/media/j2PS9MGm85WkE/giphy.gif

Joel
02-25-2017, 06:24 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/j2PS9MGm85WkE/giphy.gif
Now, that IS eternal. ;)

Cugel
02-25-2017, 08:07 PM
Default

Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
Are we "through the looking glass here, people?" Because, y'know... photons do that, at least partly.

Conceiving time as a spatial dimension is always problematic, because unless space is fundamentally, eternally, static it must always have a change component, be that the 4th of 3 dimensions or 14th of 13. If space IS fundamentally static it's a fait accompli, sp all our mental gymnastics are as masturbatory as they are illusory.

I submit that your mere ability to consider it proves dynamism exists at SOME level. This may all just be a scripted film, but not a still life portrait.

Well, obviously existence is endless energy transformation. Everyone knows that even if they may only be aware of it at a subconscious level. So a static universe is precluded a priori. You don't need to imply that the ability to consider dynamism is evidence of dynamism. That's circular reasoning.

Joel
02-25-2017, 09:23 PM
Well, obviously existence is endless energy transformation. Everyone knows that even if they may only be aware of it at a subconscious level. So a static universe is precluded a priori. You don't need to imply that the ability to consider dynamism is evidence of dynamism. That's circular reasoning.
Not at all: Absent dynamism, the very act of consideration—or ANY act—is impossible. Everything, including ones mind, is as it ever was and ever shall be, frozen in amber. That's not debatable, because even debating it proves it, because it's impossible to ever say anything not ALREADY being said, forever. Speech would just be one instant eternal syllable stretched out forever, meaning and conveying nothing, because metaphorical conveyance no more possible than physical conveyance.

dogfish
02-25-2017, 09:27 PM
whoa! did hawg and joel just drop acid together?

Hawgdriver
02-25-2017, 09:56 PM
whoa! did hawg and joel just drop acid together?

We are just waiting for Cugel's tab to kick in.

TXBRONC
02-26-2017, 08:40 AM
Whitworth all day, bitches.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-10-bets-offensive-linemen-heading-into-next-season/

At age 35, Whitworth may not be a long-term solution at this point. However, at worst, he can be an exceptional short-term answer for teams needing help at the tackle position. Whitworth has graded among the top-10 tackles for eight consecutive seasons, and his best play has actually come in recent years, as he’s ranked among the top-five tackles for the last four seasons. He remains one of the better pass-protecting left tackles, having allowed just 14 total QB pressures last season. Even though it may only be for a limited time, Whitworth could be a difference-maker for a playoff contender.

Sign him. Get that man a ring! GET THAT MAN A RING!

Did you go to any of Bengals games this past season King?

Valar Morghulis
02-26-2017, 09:16 AM
Did you go to any of Bengals games this past season King?

Unlikely on account of him being a Broncos fan and living in Illinois

Rick
02-26-2017, 10:49 AM
With all the picks we have the thing that will surprise me the most is if we don't trade for Thomas.

No way we send a first but I could see a package of other picks happening.

VonDoom
02-26-2017, 11:02 AM
With all the picks we have the thing that will surprise me the most is if we don't trade for Thomas.

No way we send a first but I could see a package of other picks happening.

I doubt the Browns trade him. If they haven't done it the last two years, I don't see it happening now

Joel
02-26-2017, 01:13 PM
With all the picks we have the thing that will surprise me the most is if we don't trade for Thomas.

No way we send a first but I could see a package of other picks happening.
We don't really have a lot of picks though. Sure, we have 4 comp picks, but 2 are Mr. Irrelevant and Mr. Next to Irrelevant. Those are only valuable if someone wants to avoid a bidding war for their favorite UDFA. What would YOU trade to save ~$150K of cap space?

We've basically got an extra late 3rd and late 5th, and the latter's little more than a sweetener: Something you offer to seal the deal with a trade partner on the fence, but almost worthless by itself. By the bottom of the 5th/top of the 6th we're talking guys who'll be lucky to make the team, much less contribute anything even as depth. We'd probably be better off keeping the comp 5th and trading our natural pick at the middle of that round.

So we got picked apart in FA just like every champion, but have nothing to show for it; meanwhile, a team that won only a single playoff game AND lost a pick for breaking the rules made out like the bandits they are. That's Goodells league for ya.

Cugel
02-26-2017, 01:31 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
With all the picks we have the thing that will surprise me the most is if we don't trade for Thomas.

No way we send a first but I could see a package of other picks happening.

Mike Klis, Broncos Insider for 9News says "I don't see this happening." Other NFL experts who have been interviewed on the question are incredulous that anybody in Denver could think the Browns would trade Thomas. Two years ago they wanted both a #1 Pick, PLUS other picks and Shaqil Barrett. Denver said hell no they wouldn't give up Shaqil Barrett and the trade fell through.

But, that was the previous coaching regime in Cleveland. They were desperate because they were about to be fired (as coaching regimes in Cleveland periodically are). The current group is trying to improve their team, not dismantle it by getting rid of their best player.

Elway can ask, but the Browns are not trying to move Joe Thomas, so their attitude is bound to be "we're not interested in a trade, but feel free to knock us out with your fabulous offer and we might reconsider." If Denver were to offer multiple high round draft picks, and throw in Shaq Barrett, whom the Browns like very much, then maybe Cleveland would consider it.

But, Elway isn't going to do that for a 33 year old player you only get for 3 seasons (maybe). He wasn't even willing to do that for a 31 year old Joe Thomas two years ago. The Broncos could have traded for him then but didn't want to pay the price. And he's less valuable (a lot less in that he has 2 fewer seasons left to play).

You'd really be mortgaging your future giving up that much in draft picks + an important player. SO, 99% certain this isn't happening. Frankly, Cleveland might not be willing to trade Joe Thomas even if Elway was willing to part with a first + a 3rd + Shaqil Barrett.

Thomas is a team leader on offense, and they'd have to consider how much losing him would set back their locker-room.

Plus, it would be wildly UNPOPULAR with the fans who see Joe Thomas as the face of their franchise. IT would be like the Broncos sucking for several years, and then trading Von Miller.

How would you react to that? It's a confession "we're just going to have to suck worse this season in order to build for 3 to 5 years from now." And this is coming off sucking for the last 10 seasons. That is NOT what their fans want to hear! And their local media would burn management over the air-waves for that.

For all these reasons, this trade isn't happening.

Valar Morghulis
02-26-2017, 01:42 PM
For all these reasons, this trade isn't happening.

This will become signature worthy if the deal happens!!

Cugel
02-26-2017, 01:43 PM
I doubt the Browns trade him. If they haven't done it the last two years, I don't see it happening now

That's the view of Adam Schefter from NFL.com on the radio too. He hasn't heard even a whisper of the Browns considering trading Joe Thomas this off-season, and for a lot of reasons it doesn't make any sense for them.

There's a slightly better chance that the SF 49ers would be willing to trade Joe Staley, because John Lynch their new GM has a 6 year contract. Not only that, but the Raiders are virtually certain to move to Vegas during that period, leaving the 49ers as the Bay Area's only team. So, they aren't under any pressure this season and can draft DeShaun Watson and develop him for the next 2 years and not worry about getting fired if they suck this year (and next too as long as Watson seems to be developing).

But, again, with a new rookie QB why would they give up their best OL? Probably not.

In fact, it's impossible to see a scenario where the Broncos find a better LT than Russell Okung (and he wasn't great). They certainly hope to find one they won't have to pay $11 M to, but that guy is not going to be decidedly better unless they were to trade for Joe Thomas or Joe Staley.

Whitworth would be a slight upgrade from Okung, because he's a better pass-protector, but:
1. All the signs are he likes playing in Cincinnati where he's played his entire career, and wants to stay.
2. There would be a lot of teams bidding for Whitworth's services because he'd be the best LT in FA. Which means he's getting a LEAST what Okung was about to get $11-12 M. And it could be more quite easily.
3. The down side is he's incredibly old. So, how long would he last? You'd be taking a risk giving him a 2 year guaranteed contract, and he'd be a fool to accept anything less.

Some team with a ton of cap space is going to overpay Whitworth.

In fact, it will be impossible to even land a FA LT without overpaying since lots of teams are competing to land a small hand full of guys.

Desperate teams will do desperate things. I think it's going to prove to be a huge mistake for the Broncos to let Okung go.

You fans are all just assuming "Elway will get it done." Well, maybe, but Tyler Polumbus thinks the OL could actually be worse this season if they don't manage to sign a veteran FA LT. And there's no guarantee they won't get outbid by other desperate teams in trying to sign their guy.

In short, a replay of the Brock Osweiler fiasco. (Although Elway lucked out there when it turned out Osweiler is a scrub). BTW: Staley is no spring chicken either - he's 33 years old, just as old as Joe Thomas.

Cugel
02-26-2017, 01:46 PM
This will become signature worthy if the deal happens!!

If you want to get all excited about a thing that is wildly unlikely, go ahead. But, expect to be disappointed because all the signs are there's just no way the Browns are trading Joe Thomas, and that probably isn't Elway's plan.

People read too much into things. All that Elway has done is say that Okung didn't do a good enough job to pay him $11 M. That much makes perfect sense. It's just that replacing him will be hard.

Cugel
02-26-2017, 01:49 PM
With all the picks we have the thing that will surprise me the most is if we don't trade for Thomas.

No way we send a first but I could see a package of other picks happening.

The gap between what you think is reasonable and what the Browns would even begin to listen to is like the Grand Canyon. A first round pick is only the BEGINNING of the compensation the Browns would demand.

We know what they demanded 2 seasons ago: a first rounder + Shaqil Barrett might get them interested, but they wanted more 2 seasons ago, and there's no reason to think they would take less now.

In fact there's no reason to think they would take any deal at all for their best player. Looking at it from their perspective why would they? That would be a confession their team is going to suck for the indefinite future. Well, they probably are, but they certainly can't just admit it!

Cugel
02-26-2017, 01:54 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Von Kinger View Post
Whitworth all day, bitches.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro...o-next-season/

At age 35, Whitworth may not be a long-term solution at this point. However, at worst, he can be an exceptional short-term answer for teams needing help at the tackle position. Whitworth has graded among the top-10 tackles for eight consecutive seasons, and his best play has actually come in recent years, as he’s ranked among the top-five tackles for the last four seasons. He remains one of the better pass-protecting left tackles, having allowed just 14 total QB pressures last season. Even though it may only be for a limited time, Whitworth could be a difference-maker for a playoff contender.

Sign him. Get that man a ring! GET THAT MAN A RING!

Lots of reasons why this idea sucks.

#1 - Tyler Polumbus says Whitworth "can barely get out of his stance." Polumbus says he talked with another NFL GM at the SB about Whitworth and said "how can the guy continue to play when he just can't move." And the NFL GM turned to him and said: "how many sacks did he give up?" Not many. So, he played at an effective level last year.

But, at 35 for how long? Will he last 1 more good year? And is it worth giving him a 2 year, $23 M guaranteed contract?

If you say no, then forget it, because some other team will do exactly that! Desperate teams whose coaches will be fired unless they win this season will be willing to overpay him. Overpaying for him means about $11M+ a year and a multi-year guarantee.

Sounds like too much doesn't it?

Well, then what's your next option? :coffee:

Cugel
02-26-2017, 01:57 PM
We are just waiting for Cugel's tab to kick in.

You'll wait a while. Unfortunately, it's not 1983 any more.

King87
02-26-2017, 02:07 PM
Lots of reasons why this idea sucks.

#1 - Tyler Polumbus says Whitworth "can barely get out of his stance." Polumbus says he talked with another NFL GM at the SB about Whitworth and said "how can the guy continue to play when he just can't move." And the NFL GM turned to him and said: "how many sacks did he give up?" Not many. So, he played at an effective level last year.

But, at 35 for how long? Will he last 1 more good year? And is it worth giving him a 2 year, $23 M guaranteed contract?

If you say no, then forget it, because some other team will do exactly that! Desperate teams whose coaches will be fired unless they win this season will be willing to overpay him. Overpaying for him means about $11M+ a year and a multi-year guarantee.

Sounds like too much doesn't it?

Well, then what's your next option? :coffee:

1. I don't care what Polumbus says. I care more about the various eyes on the guy. And the various eyes on the guy say that he's still effective. At 35 he's not a long term option, but he would have to decline a lot to even fall towards Okung level. Hopefully you get depth behind the guy...but Whitworth is still playing well.

We obviously wouldn't offer him an outrageous contract. For a single year, or two? We've seen good players at the end of their career take 'lesser' deals for various reasons. I think checking to see if Whitworth finds one of those 'reasons' to play for us is worth it.

So no, the idea doesn't suck.

Cugel
02-26-2017, 02:21 PM
1. I don't care what Polumbus says. I care more about the various eyes on the guy. And the various eyes on the guy say that he's still effective. At 35 he's not a long term option, but he would have to decline a lot to even fall towards Okung level. Hopefully you get depth behind the guy...but Whitworth is still playing well.

We obviously wouldn't offer him an outrageous contract. For a single year, or two? We've seen good players at the end of their career take 'lesser' deals for various reasons. I think checking to see if Whitworth finds one of those 'reasons' to play for us is worth it.

So no, the idea doesn't suck.

Your ideas contradict each other.

First, as I said, Whitworth can still play. At least he could last season. At 35 players can suddenly drop off in their performance. We saw that with 39 year old Peyton Manning. So, signing him and finding out he's nearing the end of his rope is certainly a possibility.

But, assuming he'd play this season at about the same level as he did the last then he'd be a slight upgrade over Okung (he's a better pass blocker, although not a better run blocker).

OK - so signing him to a 1 year deal makes sense, right? Yes.

#2 - You're ignoring the fact that teams are desperate to improve their OL and there are not a lot of good FAs out there. If Whitworth is the best, he will get the best offer.

In short, he will be OVERPAID. Get used to it. You're thinking about how good he is and what he's "worth."

But, any team that wants to sign him will have to pay MORE than he's "worth" because other teams bid up the contract price.

This is why Zane Beadles got that ridiculous $6 M a year contract from the Jaguars. Did that work out for Jacksonville? Hell no. They paid him his guaranteed money for 2 seasons and then got rid of him to SF where he's currently earning $3.5 M not $6M. He's a $3.5 M guy, so why was he so vastly overpaid?

Answer: A desperate team (Jacksonville) wanted to sign him ahead of other desperate teams, so they had to give him $6M a year for 2 years guaranteed.

Actually signing Whitworth to a 2 year deal for say, $5 or $6 M a year would be good.

But he's going to get nearly double that! Is he worth $11 or $12M a year, with $23M guaranteed? No.

Well, then you're not getting him are you? What on earth makes you think he's coming here for 1/2 the money? Average LTs get around $11M. He's old, but playing better than average, so why would he take less money?

This is his last chance at the big pay-day.

So, the Broncos have a choice:
Pay Whitworth what they were unwilling to pay Okung - around $12 M. And guarantee more than 1 year.

Or two: Pass on Whitworth.

King87
02-26-2017, 02:23 PM
Saying 'he can still play at this point in his career and he might take a decent deal for us' isn't a contradiction. It is a possibility. He might take a stupid contract from someone else. Or, he might, as many veterans are wont to do, take a deal with us.

Life is not a dichotomy.

Cugel
02-26-2017, 02:37 PM
Saying 'he can still play at this point in his career and he might take a decent deal for us' isn't a contradiction. It is a possibility. He might take a stupid contract from someone else. Or, he might, as many veterans are wont to do, take a deal with us.

Life is not a dichotomy.

He played in Cincinnati, not Cleveland. He wants to stay in Cincinnati and the word is that the greatest probability is they re-sign him, so he won't even be available. Cincinnati isn't planning on getting rid of him, and they have a lot of cap space, so they could get a deal done there prior to the start of FA.

Majority of probability is he stays in Cincinnati. Minority of probability says that he hits FA, where some other team will offer him average starter money. And that will be overpaying for a 35 year old player.

If you think he's coming here for a lot less that's your delusion. Lots of fans think players should take any deal the Broncos offer so they can come here. That's because you're a fan, not a player.

Timmy!
02-26-2017, 02:40 PM
Lol

King87
02-26-2017, 02:44 PM
Holy shit...

I said it's a possibility. Not a delusion.

Cugel, you're a smart guy...but you're also kind of a dummy.

Cugel
02-26-2017, 02:52 PM
Holy shit...

I said it's a possibility. Not a delusion.

Cugel, you're a smart guy...but you're also kind of a dummy.

I think you're missing the point. The point is that he's definitely not coming here for a lot less money.

IN order of probability:

#1 - He re-signs and stays in Cincy.
#2 - He hits FA and gets paid the average for starting LTs in the NFL which is about $11 0r $12 M a year. At least a 2 year guarantee = $23 M total guaranteed or so. Perhaps Denver is willing to pay him that much. Perhaps not.

Those are the only options. It's your imagination that is creating option #3 where he comes here for a lot less. It's just stupid fan thinking to believe he's so desperate to come to Denver that he'll take a much lower deal than he can get from any number of other teams. That's just not happening because why would he? He can go to another team and still compete for the playoffs and get paid more $.

Valar Morghulis
02-26-2017, 02:58 PM
Yeah, this league is completely bereft of players taking less money in pursuit of a ring.

King87
02-26-2017, 03:03 PM
Man...it's possible for someone to not miss something and disagree with you. I hate to break this to you, but you're not so in-depth and 'smart' that people can't keep up with you.

Owl.

Cugel
02-26-2017, 03:06 PM
Yeah, this league is completely bereft of players taking less money in pursuit of a ring.

About 1/2 the league needs OL help. So, he can find another team that is competitive right now and still get paid. Denver is not even the favourite in the AFC West. The latest word is that the Chiefs are looking to add Tony Romo. If they do and he's healthy they would instantly be the favourite in the AFC West and possibly close to the Patriots.

Denver meanwhile is the 3rd best in their own division. They are not regarded around the league as a SB contender right now, since they don't have an elite QB. So, can your satire. Nobody is coming here just "to win a championship" any more. We don't have Peyton Manning any more, so this is not a guaranteed elite team.

(unless the Broncos managed to develop Paxton Lynch into an elite QB at some point or sign Tony Romo).

So, NO. No FA is going to take MUCH less than they can earn elsewhere and still compete for the playoffs. Denver is going to have to be better than expected just to make the playoffs this year. And it's probably going to be as a wild card if they do. The days of just rolling over the division to 12-4 with Peyton are over.

King87
02-26-2017, 03:08 PM
We get it. OL are in need. We get it.

Valar Morghulis
02-26-2017, 03:24 PM
About 1/2 the league needs OL help. So, he can find another team that is competitive right now and still get paid. Denver is not even the favourite in the AFC West. The latest word is that the Chiefs are looking to add Tony Romo. If they do and he's healthy they would instantly be the favourite in the AFC West and possibly close to the Patriots. Denver meanwhile is the 3rd best in their own division. They are not regarded around the league as a SB contender right now, since they don't have an elite QB. So, can your satire. Nobody is coming here just "to win a championship" any more. We don't have Peyton Manning any more, so this is not a guaranteed elite team. (unless the Broncos managed to develop Paxton Lynch into an elite QB at some point or sign Tony Romo). So, NO. No FA is going to take MUCH less than they can earn elsewhere and still compete for the playoffs. Denver is going to have to be better than expected just to make the playoffs this year. And it's probably going to be as a wild card if they do. The days of just rolling over the division to 12-4 with Peyton are over.

You're funny, like the angry character in inside out.

King87
02-26-2017, 03:26 PM
Cugel is me in twenty years.

Cugel, how much heart medication do I need to prepare for?

King87
02-26-2017, 03:41 PM
Whitworth can't be a Bronco if Romo goes to the Chiefs.

But we're still the frontrunners for the Romo sweepstakes...

Cugel, I'm not mad at you for looking at realistic hypotheticals. But we have seen players sign with competitive teams for less money. It happens each year. There's no cosmic law that says Whitworth isn't one of them. Yeah, there are more likely scenarios than him coming here, but that doesn't mean him coming here is that farfetched.

Cugel
02-26-2017, 08:15 PM
Whitworth can't be a Bronco if Romo goes to the Chiefs.

But we're still the frontrunners for the Romo sweepstakes...

Cugel, I'm not mad at you for looking at realistic hypotheticals. But we have seen players sign with competitive teams for less money. It happens each year. There's no cosmic law that says Whitworth isn't one of them. Yeah, there are more likely scenarios than him coming here, but that doesn't mean him coming here is that farfetched.

I never get mad at people on a message board. And Whitworth is probably not coming here, but the Broncos could easily sign him if they wanted to badly enough.

Assuming Cincy doesn't re-sign him, just pay him $12M a year with a 2 year guaranteed contract, and he'll come here easily enough.

But, getting him to take a discount, when he can go elsewhere for more money and still compete to go to the playoffs, that's almost impossible.

So, if he comes here it will mean Elway decided to pay him market rate.

Cugel
02-26-2017, 08:17 PM
Cugel is me in twenty years.

Cugel, how much heart medication do I need to prepare for?

I don't know. How grumpy are you?

10215

King87
02-26-2017, 08:18 PM
What playoffs teams are going to compete for his services? And players take less money to go to teams all the time. It happens all the time. Every single offseason.

You take a logical formulation that goes "if something is more likely to happen it will happen."

It's not a great logical formulation.

NightTerror218
02-27-2017, 12:57 AM
What playoffs teams are going to compete for his services? And players take less money to go to teams all the time. It happens all the time. Every single offseason.

You take a logical formulation that goes "if something is more likely to happen it will happen."

It's not a great logical formulation.

Colts titans bengals all need LT and are on playoff cusp

King87
02-27-2017, 01:02 AM
Colts titans bengals all need LT and are on playoff cusp

Bengals are miles from the playoffs. They have one RB, one WR, and one TE. That's all. The defense is going to get much worse, too.

The Titans have a beastly line. I'm surprised they need at LT.

The Colts point is legit.

Jaded
02-27-2017, 01:17 AM
Colts extended Costanzo last season, I think, and the Titans have Taylor Lewan and Jack Conklin so they're 2-deep with legitimate LT's.

Bengals have Obueghi.

If any of these teams are looking for LT's I would take theirs off their hands.

King87
02-27-2017, 01:22 AM
Cedric was shit last year, so Cincinnati does want to keep AWW.

But...he's been mad at them recently.

And he's my homie.

Joel
02-27-2017, 10:02 AM
Well, if Cincy's fed up with Ogbuehi too and won't part with Whitworth, maybe we should talk trade. We'd get more than a year or two (if that) out of Ogbuehi; the question's whether we have anyone who could coach up a talented young OT. But we'd face the same question if we drafted one: He'd just have NO pro experience.

King87
02-27-2017, 10:13 AM
Well, now that Kubiak and his OL coach is gone the chances of that has gone up.

Glad you agree!

Joel
02-27-2017, 11:05 AM
Well, now that Kubiak and his OL coach is gone the chances of that has gone up.

Glad you agree!
99.44% sure that's not what I said. Who IS our OL coach now, anyway? Help us out here, Jaded.

Cugel
02-27-2017, 01:44 PM
Well, if Cincy's fed up with Ogbuehi too and won't part with Whitworth, maybe we should talk trade. We'd get more than a year or two (if that) out of Ogbuehi; the question's whether we have anyone who could coach up a talented young OT. But we'd face the same question if we drafted one: He'd just have NO pro experience.

You can't depend on a rookie to start on a team that has legitimate super bowl aspirations. Especially not when every single T in this year's draft is a multi-year project at best. There's not one guy, including Ryan Ramczyk.


Weaknesses:

The injury red flag needs to be waved here, Ramczyk was battling through a hip injury at the end of the year, and it’s never good to be dealing with those at a young age. Pass protection can be iffy at times, but showed progression throughout the year. His height gives him less leverage, needs to improve getting down and gaining leverage. His scheme at Wisconsin was very run oriented, questions are still there surrounding his ability to pass block, and cover the edge more frequently, and against better competition.

Pro Comparison: Doug Free

Projection: Mid-Late 1st Round

This sounds rather like some of the guys the Broncos already have. More of a run blocker than a pass-pro T. Well that's Russell Okung to a T. Not an upgrade. And you'd need to spend the 20th pick of the draft on this guy, if he's even available at that spot.

Pass.

In short, none of the Ts available in this draft compares with another Ryan Clady I.e. not the kind of elite LT prospect you can plug in and not have to worry about LT for the next 10 years.

Whitworth? Well, in addition to the fact that you're not sure how much he even has left at 35, he'd be an upgrade as a pass-blocker, but not at all an upgrade over Okung as a run blocker. That's why I think it was a BAD mistake to let Okung go. It's going to be very tough to replace him with anybody better. And anybody comparable (Whitworth, Kelvin Beachum - who made $9M last year and will command a lot more than that in FA this year), will be EXPENSIVE.

Fans on these boards keep insisting that guys are going to come here to "win a championship."

But, you have to face facts. The general perception around the NFL is that the Broncos are "a lot further away from their SB championship than they are closer to another one." They lack a franchise QB in a pretty tough division. And when you get to the playoffs, you wind up having to travel to Pittsburgh or New England where Ben Roethlisberger or Tom Brady is waiting. And you have Trevor Siemian or Paxton Lynch.

Does that sound like the Broncos are an elite SB caliber team? No, it doesn't. Not to FAs looking to go to a city to win a SB. Peyton gave the Broncos instant credibility when it comes to FA. That's how DeMarcus Ware got here.

But, that ship sailed with Manning. Right now the Broncos are the 3rd best team in the AFC West, despite having the best defense. And to move up they will need a LOT better QB play than they have had since 2014 when Manning was healthy. That's why there's so much consideration of Tony Romo - despite his age & injury history. AT least the guy has proven he can play at a elite level (when healthy). I don't want Romo, but the interest illustrates the problem.

7DnBrnc53
02-27-2017, 01:58 PM
Whitworth? Well, he'd be an upgrade as a pass-blocker, but not at all an upgrade over Okung as a run blocker. That's why I think it was a BAD mistake to let Okung go. It's going to be very tough to replace him with anybody better.

I am listening to Sandy Clough's podcast, and he said something about how the Broncos have no interest in Okung, and that he was washed up. His career should be over.

Cugel
02-27-2017, 02:13 PM
99.44% sure that's not what I said. Who IS our OL coach now, anyway? Help us out here, Jaded.

Jeff Davidson -


Davidson spent 2016 as the Chargers’ offensive line coach under Mike McCoy, who is now the Broncos’ offensive coordinator. Davidson has 22 years of NFL coaching experience, primarily as an offensive line coach or offensive coordinator.

There are now five known offensive coaches on the Broncos staff — McCoy (offensive coordinator), Bill Musgrave (quarterbacks coach), Eric Studesville (running backs coach), Tyke Tolbert (receivers coach) and Davidson. The five combine for 93 years of NFL coaching experience.

Davidson typically runs a power-blocking scheme rather than the zone-blocking scheme the Broncos ran under Gary Kubiak over the past two seasons. Joseph has stressed the value of flexibility and adjusting schemes to players rather than the other way around.

The Broncos may not do a complete shift from Kubiak’s zone scheme to Davidson’s power scheme, but there will certainly be more power blocking than in previous years. That could benefit players such as 2016 fifth-round pick Connor McGovern, who may be the Broncos’ strongest player but was inactive for every game last season.

The Broncos are looking for Davidson to improve an offensive line that has struggled for two seasons to both pass block and run block. The offensive line allowed 40 sacks in 2016, ninth most in the NFL. They also ranked 27th in the NFL in rushing offense while producing 92.8 rushing yards a game.

The Chargers’ offensive line was only slightly better last season, allowing 36 sacks and ranking 26th in rushing offense. Davidson did have a lot of success in other stops including Minnesota (2011-15), where his offensive line paved the way for three top-five rushing offenses.

Cugel
02-27-2017, 02:19 PM
I am listening to Sandy Clough's podcast, and he said something about how the Broncos have no interest in Okung, and that he was washed up. His career should be over.

His career is nowhere near over. He's only turning 30 this season and has stayed healthy for the first time in his career. He will generate a lot of interest in FA. He's no longer the quick step fast moving guy he was coming out of Oklahoma State, but he's developed into a very powerful run blocker. He'd make an ideal RT, and is an average LT.

Well, average LT FAs are few and far between this year. Seattle fans right now are all excited about the prospect of bringing Russell back to town (no idea if that's realistic at all). Fans in other cities are looking at him as an upgrade. About 1/2 of NFL teams according to NFL experts are looking to upgrade their OLs. That's 16 teams folks. Now, not all of them would be interested in Russell but some of them will be.

He's going to get around $11M+ on at least a 2 year guaranteed contract for around $22M+ total guaranteed.

You might think that's "too much!" but --- compared with what? Is it too much if the Broncos wind up trying to coach up Ty Sambrailo or Michael Schofield to be their starting LT ?!! That's what they are facing if they can't find a LT in FA BTW, so that's not just my nightmare scenario.

That is actually Mike Klis's idea: that Elway might just go with the young players he's already got on the roster, maybe pick up a RT or RG in FA, and maybe draft a couple developmental guys.

And he is as close to they coaches in Dove Valley as anybody. I sure hope he's wrong about this!

If you don't believe that watch and see! "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!"

BroncoJoe
02-27-2017, 03:13 PM
This thread should be aborted.

Hawgdriver
02-27-2017, 03:28 PM
This thread should be aborted.

Because my posts raped Kinger's and his words became pregnant with style?

Cugel
02-27-2017, 03:40 PM
This thread should be aborted.

You do realize that every time you post in a thread it bumps it back to the top? If you're not interested in a thread don't post in it.

BroncoJoe
02-27-2017, 03:42 PM
You do realize that every time you post in a thread it bumps it back to the top? If you're not interested in a thread don't post in it.

Yes, cugel. I realize that. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be aborted.

I'll post in any damn thread I feel like posting in, BTW.

slim
02-27-2017, 03:45 PM
Abortion is murder

Hawgdriver
02-27-2017, 03:54 PM
Abortion is murder

This monster is out of control and should be stuffed in the Black Hole.

BroncoJoe
02-27-2017, 04:00 PM
Abortion is murder

Exactly my point. Delete this bitch!


This monster is out of control and should be stuffed in the Black Hole.

I'm not sure it's even worth a place in the Black Hole at this point...

slim
02-27-2017, 04:01 PM
This monster is out of control and should be stuffed in the Black Hole.

This thread was born 4 days ago. It is a living, breathing thing.

There is nothing we can do.

BroncoJoe
02-27-2017, 04:04 PM
This thread was born 4 days ago. It is a living, breathing thing.

There is nothing we can do.

It started off great, slim. Probably the best thread in the history of Broncos Forums.

Unfortunately, there are a few posters that came in and filled the swamp instead of draining it.

Valar Morghulis
02-27-2017, 04:04 PM
If only killary won, then we murder it, no dramas.

Jaded
02-27-2017, 04:49 PM
99.44% sure that's not what I said. Who IS our OL coach now, anyway? Help us out here, Jaded.

Jeff Davidson, he's legit. Chris Strausser is his new Assistant OL Coach, he's legit.

Ogbuehi is legit. Bungals are shit.

slim
02-27-2017, 04:51 PM
It started off great, slim. Probably the best thread in the history of Broncos Forums.

Unfortunately, there are a few posters that came in and filled the swamp instead of draining it.

We can make this thread great again!

Jaded
02-27-2017, 04:55 PM
We can make this thread great again!

Grab it by the pssuy.

Hawgdriver
02-27-2017, 09:02 PM
This thread was born 4 days ago. It is a living, breathing thing.

There is nothing we can do.

I was talking about something else. Sorry for the OT.

Joel
02-28-2017, 09:37 AM
Jeff Davidson, he's legit. Chris Strausser is his new Assistant OL Coach, he's legit.

Ogbuehi is legit. Bungals are shit.
I'm Joel and I approve of this message. Wait, secret bribes=free speech now, so I don't have to say that anymore:

SUCK IT, DEMOCRACY! :tongue:

Cugel
03-07-2017, 12:16 PM
Actually, the Bungles are NOT shit. They have a pretty good and dangerous team. They just happen to have a QB who chokes in the playoffs against really good teams. And some not so good ones. And some teams that slid into the playoffs by accident. And some teams that have no clue how they managed to get in, but are just going to roll with it. And some teams. . . . . . . . . .

Cugel
03-08-2017, 12:36 PM
As of late yesterday, the Broncos were still exploring the option of bringing Russell Okung back to start at LT, but at a reduced rate. Russell is OK with the idea of returning, but wants to test the FA market.

According to 9News Broncos Insider Mike Klis, if Okung tests FA, then the Broncos are moving on from him. All this means Okung is moving to a new team. Four teams are now in a bidding war for him and he's going to get at least $8-10M a year. The Jets and Panthers are reportedly the newest teams to be interested in him.


James Palmer of NFL Media is reporting that the Broncos and free agent LT Russell Okung are discussing a potential return for him to Denver. (http://nfltraderumors.co/broncos-lt-russell-okung-discussing-possible-return/)

Okung is considered to be the best available left tackle in this year’s free agent market and has been linked to the Panthers, Broncos, Giants, Jets, Chargers and Vikings.

Master Tesfatsion of the Washington Post previously mentioned Okung will be able to secure an even better contract than the one-year, $5 million deal he signed with the Broncos last year. This contract did include a four-year,$48 million option, but it was ultimately declined by the Broncos a few weeks ago.

Tesfatsion added that the belief right now is that Okung should be able to get between $10-12 million per season when all is said and done.

Broncos GM John Elway said that they have not “moved on” from Okung, despite the fact that they declined to pick up his option last week.

Okung, 28, is a former first-round pick of the Seahawks back in 2010. After six years in Seattle, Okung signed a one-year, $5 million contract that included a team option with the Broncos in March of last year.

The Broncos had until March 9 to pick up Okung’s $1 million team option. Had they exercised his option, they would have added four years at $48 million with $21 million guaranteed to his contract.

This repeats the problems the Broncos are finding trying to upgrade their team. Everywhere other teams with a lot more money are outbidding them for FAs. The Browns and 49ers have around $100 M and even the Patriots have $60M under the cap. Broncos are 10th in terms of FA space under the cap, which sounds great, but lots of teams have more.

Now the top FA target after NT Chris Baker of the Redskins (who could get over $8M a year), would be re-signing Okung. But now that's not happening, their top LT target is down to Whitworth, who will get $11-12 M and is likely to return to the Bengals and is 36 years old anyway.

Apparently the Broncos are not interested in the Lions Reilly Reiff who got demoted to RT and now could be available. He's not a true LT.

Maybe

Cugel
03-08-2017, 12:57 PM
According to Broncos Insider Mike Klis, unless some RT falls into their lap in FA (and that is not one of their top 4 FA priorities - #1 Tony Romo, #2 DT Chris Baker, #3 LT (someone, anyone!), #4 RG - TJ Lang?) the Broncos starting RT in 2017 comes down to a "competition" between RT Donald Stephenson (Urg!), Ty Sambrailo (Urf!) and Michael Schofield (Gag!).

They could try and land a RT in the draft, but it would be difficult for a rookie to start and play well at that position and there are not a lot of great tackles in this draft.

So, unless they land a trade or some RT finds his market unexpectedly falling (the opposite appears to be happening with Ricky Wagner set to break the ALL-TIME RT FA record of $11.2M a year), the Broncos starting RT would appear to be already on the roster. And not in a good way either! :tsk:

Joel
03-08-2017, 01:19 PM
Has someone actually gone on record that a broken down over-the-hill QB is our #1 FA priority despite last years 1st rounder and ANOTHER guy who had a great NFL debut being on the roster for at least two more seasons, while our current line would virtually GUARANTEE this is Romos final season if he comes here?

I mean, I don't mean to be a jerk, Cugel, but aren't these the same "NFL insiders" who told you we'd NEVER let Okung hit the open market when we could lock him up for 4 seasons with the flip of a switch (and $50M)? Because, y'know... we did PRECISELY that ANYWAY. I'm not sure which would be more stupefying: That professional sports journalists (if that's not a contradiction in terms...) are saying we'll start Schofrailo at RT, or that Elway might ACTUALLY do that.

I'm going to cross my fingers and hope it's the "journalists" with no clue wtf they're doing, not our GM.

VonDoom
03-08-2017, 01:26 PM
Has someone actually gone on record that a broken down over-the-hill QB is our #1 FA priority despite last years 1st rounder and ANOTHER guy who had a great NFL debut being on the roster for at least two more seasons, while our current line would virtually GUARANTEE this is Romos final season if he comes here?

I mean, I don't mean to be a jerk, Cugel, but aren't these the same "NFL insiders" who told you we'd NEVER let Okung hit the open market when we could lock him up for 4 seasons with the flip of a switch (and $50M)? Because, y'know... we did PRECISELY that ANYWAY. I'm not sure which would be more stupefying: That professional sports journalists (if that's not a contradiction in terms...) are saying we'll start Schofrailo at RT, or that Elway might ACTUALLY do that.

I'm going to cross my fingers and hope it's the "journalists" with no clue wtf they're doing, not our GM.

Every writer I've seen has said that our priorities are LT and some sort of DL. The Romo thing may happen but no one is making it priority one in the media and I doubt that's how Elway is approaching it as of now.

slim
03-08-2017, 01:27 PM
Cugel, please tell us how the NFL works.

thanks!

Joel
03-08-2017, 01:46 PM
Every writer I've seen has said that our priorities are LT and some sort of DL. The Romo thing may happen but no one is making it priority one in the media and I doubt that's how Elway is approaching it as of now.
That sure as Hell makes a lot more sense. That is, last year was a keen reminder that what's logical and what actually HAPPENS don't always coincide, but I'd like to think there's at least some bastion of sanity left in the world.

Jaded
03-08-2017, 07:40 PM
Has someone actually gone on record that a broken down over-the-hill QB is our #1 FA priority despite last years 1st rounder and ANOTHER guy who had a great NFL debut being on the roster for at least two more seasons, while our current line would virtually GUARANTEE this is Romos final season if he comes here?

I mean, I don't mean to be a jerk, Cugel, but aren't these the same "NFL insiders" who told you we'd NEVER let Okung hit the open market when we could lock him up for 4 seasons with the flip of a switch (and $50M)? Because, y'know... we did PRECISELY that ANYWAY. I'm not sure which would be more stupefying: That professional sports journalists (if that's not a contradiction in terms...) are saying we'll start Schofrailo at RT, or that Elway might ACTUALLY do that.

I'm going to cross my fingers and hope it's the "journalists" with no clue wtf they're doing, not our GM.

Uh, Mike Klis? Literally every one in town with a finger on the pulse?

Did you know that ostriches don't actually stick their heads in the ground?

Jaded
03-08-2017, 07:45 PM
I'll never understand people's preoccupation with building a team and THEN worrying about the QB, that's ass-backwards.

Wait til there are no holes left to fill and then get the most important piece?

Cugel
03-09-2017, 08:23 PM
I wonder if Joel is still holding out, now that everybody in the NFL is saying that Houston and Denver are both in the hunt for Romo, and essentially it's down to those two teams since Romo just said publicly to Dallas reporters that he wants to go to a team that has a great defense and is ready to win a SB. That pretty much eliminates every possible team except Houston and Denver.

Of course the Texans will win because they just gave up a 2nd and 6th round pick just to free up $16M under the cap to throw at Romo - unless Jerry Jones decides to utterly screw him by either trading Romo to Denver, or else just keeping him.

Wouldn't that be hilarious? Jerry has to be chortling about the possibility of pulling a Lucy to the Texans' Charlie Brown and yank Romo away from them after they just got rid of their starting QB? You just KNOW Jerry would utterly love that, if he could get away with it. :laugh:

LTC Pain
03-09-2017, 08:52 PM
Of course the Broncos aren't going to pick up Okung's contract at this point, but they have several weeks before they have to decide, so I doubt Elway even knows at this point.

If they can engineer a trade for a LT like Kelvin Beachum, they won't have to pay Okung. But, if not, they could be forced to do it.

So, this report is pretty much garbage at this point. Jay Glazer was the idiot who was close to John Fox and broke the news that Fox wouldn't be back -- the very morning of the playoff game against the Colts which Fox then proceeded to tank! I doubt he's particularly close to Elway though after that fiasco!

Elway is certainly not telling reporters right now what his plans are, and it's unlikely he even knows, since FA hasn't begun yet and it's uncertain whether he can sign a FA LT or not. He might like a guy, and get out-bid or the target might just sign with another team for instance.

So, this report isn't "garbage" as your "very professional" analysis and expertise concluded huh Cugel!