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View Full Version : John Clayton's GOAT QB Ranking



Northman
01-30-2017, 10:52 AM
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18581054/greatest-quarterbacks-all-ranking-john-clayton-picks-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-best-nfl-qb-ever


6. John Elwayhttp://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/teamlogos/nfl/500/den.png?w=110&h=110&transparent=trueRegular-season record: 148-82-1 | Regular-season MVPs: 1987
Super Bowl titles: XXXII, XXXIII*
Elway was perhaps the most talented of the great class of quarterbacks in the 1983 draft. He was so good that he would take above-average Denver Broncos (http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/den/denver-broncos) teams to Super Bowls, even though it took him 15 years to get his first Super Bowl title. He closed his career in the best way -- back-to-back titles.


I will still contend that Elway was the best ever for any number of reasons but i thought Clayton's list was interesting and frankly, its understandable why he put Brady at #1 like he did because of all the SB's he has managed to get to.

Buff
01-30-2017, 11:01 AM
Maybe Dread will show up to debate Elway vs. Otto Graham.

Davii
01-30-2017, 11:02 AM
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18581054/greatest-quarterbacks-all-ranking-john-clayton-picks-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-best-nfl-qb-ever




I will still contend that Elway was the best ever for any number of reasons but i thought Clayton's list was interesting and frankly, its understandable why he put Brady at #1 like he did because of all the SB's he has managed to get to.

Brady isn't #1, no chance. Brady goes down and his team goes 11-5 with Matt Cassel.... Brady's a damn good qb but not #1. I'd swap him and Elway on that list.

Northman
01-30-2017, 11:06 AM
Brady isn't #1, no chance. Brady goes down and his team goes 11-5 with Matt Cassel.... Brady's a damn good qb but not #1. I'd swap him and Elway on that list.

I agree about the swap but..... Bubby Brister came in for John for a few games and still kept the team winning. Like Bubby, Cassell was lucky to be part of a very good team that really should of made the playoffs that year.

Davii
01-30-2017, 11:09 AM
I agree about the swap but..... Bubby Brister came in for John for a few games and still kept the team winning. Like Bubby, Cassell was lucky to be part of a very good team that really should of made the playoffs that year.

A "few games" doesn't make a season

And the first four games this year they went 3-1 with like a 12th string qb, no Gronk, etc. When Brady is out they don't suffer a whole lot. No doubt there's a drop off, but I think at this point it's fairly obvious BB is the architect of the Pat's success to include Tom Brady.

Northman
01-30-2017, 11:12 AM
A "few games" doesn't make a season

And the first four games this year they went 3-1 with like a 12th string qb, no Gronk, etc. When Brady is out they don't suffer a whole lot. No doubt there's a drop off, but I think at this point it's fairly obvious BB is the architect of the Pat's success to include Tom Brady.

I disagree in the sense that the QB still has to make the plays. BB is a great HC, probably the best of this generation (minus the cheating scandals) but i can guarantee that when Brady finally retires they wont have near the success as they did with Brady there. I mean, as much as people think Siemian sucks donkey balls we still went 9-7 so you can have "some" success with just about any QB so as long as there is talent around them and the coaching is competent.

Davii
01-30-2017, 11:17 AM
I disagree in the sense that the QB still has to make the plays. BB is a great HC, probably the best of this generation (minus the cheating scandals) but i can guarantee that when Brady finally retires they wont have near the success as they did with Brady there. I mean, as much as people think Siemian sucks donkey balls we still went 9-7 so you can have "some" success with just about any QB so as long as there is talent around them and the coaching is competent.

Exactly, and Brady always has great talent around him, excellent coaching, etc. Like I said, there's a drop off when Brady is out, but the proof is in their record without him.

Northman
01-30-2017, 11:21 AM
Exactly, and Brady always has great talent around him, excellent coaching, etc. Like I said, there's a drop off when Brady is out, but the proof is in their record without him.

But wouldnt you agree that every successful QB has great talent and coaching around them? Especially when they win championships? I mean, Montana always had great talent around him in SF, same with Young. When Young was in Tampa he sucked so i think for any QB to really succeed they need to have the rest to be as successful as they are.

Davii
01-30-2017, 11:29 AM
But wouldnt you agree that every successful QB has great talent and coaching around them? Especially when they win championships? I mean, Montana always had great talent around him in SF, same with Young. When Young was in Tampa he sucked so i think for any QB to really succeed they need to have the rest to be as successful as they are.

I would, but not to the point Brady has. Manning goes down and where were the Colts? Dolphins if Marino was out? Elway carried teams to the dance but needed help to get over the hump.

I'm saying Brady is a great qb, but not as good as some some of the others on that list.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-30-2017, 11:38 AM
Ranking QBs is very difficult. It's natural to look at team success and championships and make a case. I see championships as team accomplishments and rank them lower than most when talking about QB success. I tend to rank them on who I would want to be my QB if I was running a team. Brady wouldn't be #1 on my list. He's a great QB, but he's benefited more than anyone on that list other than maybe Bradshaw and Montana in playing for a great franchise and great HC.

Jaded
01-30-2017, 11:46 AM
Brady isn't Top 5, he's a proven cheater too.

Joel
01-30-2017, 11:59 AM
The fact that Brady is about to play in Super Bowl LI -- his seventh Super Bowl appearance -- is remarkable, especially after missing the first four games of the season because of his Deflategate suspension.
Sometimes people say more than they intend.... ;)

I used to say it's so hard for a SB-winning QB in his careers final days to drop everything he's had so long and successfully, move across the country, start over with a completely different team and DO IT ALL AGAIN that NO ONE could ever do it—until someone DID. Without taping practices, or play signals, or deflating any balls.

Until/unless someone ELSE does that, it's the mark to beat. Literally EVERYONE else is open to charges of "system QB" because they never did it any other way anywhere else. Not that guy: He TRANSCENDED systems.

As for Graham vs. Elway, Graham was elite, but Reeves would've loved him because he never called his own plays. And his career rushing average would make Hillman cringe. Plus two years after he retired his team was back in the NFL Championship (though they did draft Jim Brown that year, and went 5-7 the year in between.) I still think was the best PLAYER ever, because he was an elite passer, runner and even kicker. But he did it so long ago his stats are nonexistent, so it's purely a matter of opinion with only anecdotal evidence to support it.

WTE
01-30-2017, 12:58 PM
Brady isn't #1, no chance. Brady goes down and his team goes 11-5 with Matt Cassel.... Brady's a damn good qb but not #1. I'd swap him and Elway on that list.

That 11-5 record is very deceiving. That was a very easy schedule and they did not beat one decent team all year. The toughest team they played was the Steelers who crushed them. They also lost badly to the 8-8 Chargers. If Brady was healthy they would likely have gone 14-2.


Exactly, and Brady always has great talent around him, excellent coaching, etc. Like I said, there's a drop off when Brady is out, but the proof is in their record without him.

They don't always have great talent around them. Patriots fans remember the years when our best receiver was Ricochet Caldwell or when Brady was throwing to tight ends like Matthew Mulligan. Yesterday I compared New England's current roster to the one that won Super 49 and our receivers that year were far from elite. Our best was Edelman and then it dropped to Amendola, Brandon LaFell, Josh Boyce, Matthew Slater and Brian Tyms. Not great.

Brady just makes them look great.

WARHORSE
01-30-2017, 01:33 PM
Still like Whitlocks old write up on why Elway is the best. Of course, that was years ago.

But if Brady played in Elways time, or the era of Unitas or Graham or Starr, etc........he would have been broken in half.

Brady plays in a time taylored to QBs, and roughing the passer comes with blowing a kiss.

Systems and coaching play a big role in QB championships and success as well.

Brady is unreal to be sure, but he plays in the sissy era of QBs. (sorry if you're a sissy and take offense)


Elway would dominate and thrive in any era.

BroncoJoe
01-30-2017, 02:27 PM
I hate the Patriots like any good Broncos' fan should.

But, to discount what Brady has accomplished is stupid. I'm not saying he should be #1 - Elway holds that spot for me - but he's a damn good QB and to say otherwise means you really don't understand football or the position he plays.

Valar Morghulis
01-30-2017, 02:29 PM
I hate the Patriots like any good Broncos' fan should. But, to discount what Brady has accomplished is stupid. I'm not saying he should be #1 - Elway holds that spot for me - but he's a damn good QB and to say otherwise means you really don't understand football or the position he plays.

Yeah, Brady is number two or three for me, but I would not argue with anyone who placed him at one

I Eat Staples
01-30-2017, 02:42 PM
Too much emphasis placed on Superbowls. I don't think Brady is #1. For me it's Peyton, Elway, and then probably Brady.

Terry Bradshaw is one of the most overrated players in NFL history.

Freyaka
01-30-2017, 02:44 PM
Montana deserves the top honors hands down IMO. Brady is probably 3-4 behind Manning and Elway, but I cannot agree with #1.

BroncoJoe
01-30-2017, 03:04 PM
Too much emphasis placed on Superbowls. I don't think Brady is #1. For me it's Peyton, Elway, and then probably Brady.

Terry Bradshaw is one of the most overrated players in NFL history.

I really don't like the bashing of Bradshaw. He was a leader, got his team behind him and played very well when it counted.

Doesn't hurt he has 4 rings averaging nearly 26 points per game.

Mike
01-30-2017, 03:53 PM
Probably should put an asterisk next to #1.

MOtorboat
01-30-2017, 04:43 PM
The order in which I'd prefer them to be the quarterback of my favorite team:

1. Elway
2. Manning
3. Rodgers
4. Marino
5. Montana

Just my opinion, man.

dogfish
01-30-2017, 05:11 PM
north, geez dude. . . just blow brady already and get it over with. . . :lol:


if elway had played for bill walsh or belichunk, he would have gone to like fifteen straight super bowls. . .

Northman
01-30-2017, 05:56 PM
north, geez dude. . . just blow brady already and get it over with. . . :lol:


if elway had played for bill walsh or belichunk, he would have gone to like fifteen straight super bowls. . .

Uh duh?

Who argued against that? Lmao

OrangeHoof
01-30-2017, 07:27 PM
Bradshaw won all his Super Bowls with a HOF running back next to him. So did Aikman. Changes your whole passing game completely. Montana won a SB with Bill Ring and Linville Elliott as his RBs. Before TD, the best Elway played with was Sammy Winder who wasn't terrible but was no Franco or Emmitt. Brady's running backs were largely cast-offs and low picks. Give him his due but Montana is still #1 in my books in terms of Super Bowl play.

slim
01-30-2017, 08:04 PM
Known cheaters should not even be in the discussion.

King87
01-30-2017, 08:27 PM
I really don't like the bashing of Bradshaw. He was a leader, got his team behind him and played very well when it counted.

Doesn't hurt he has 4 rings averaging nearly 26 points per game.

He needed about six or seven seasons to have a good year, even in his era. He has one of the worst TD to INT ratios for any QB in the HoF, including his peers in that era.

If he didn't have an all-time team he wouldn't have had the chance to play well when it counted. He is probably the worst player in the HoF.

WTE
01-30-2017, 08:32 PM
Before TD, the best Elway played with was Sammy Winder who wasn't terrible but was no Franco or Emmitt.

I love Dick Enberg but I hated the way he pronounced Sammy Winder's last name. Seemed like over emphasize on the winde of Winder.

King87
01-30-2017, 08:41 PM
Brady is good enough to have a solid claim to the title.

Early in his career when he was just a good passer everyone made excuses for him because he lacked personnel. As if a solid trio of WR's, a good line, and a pass catching back is something to sniff at. Regardless, when he matured his numbers did hit the heights that they had to hit. To be fair, he needed more time to do it than a lot of the other Qb's in this conversation. Which is something I do hold against him because he was nursed along by his head coach.

Marino...they gave that man the ball and said go win.
Peyton Manning, they have that man the ball and said go win.
Same thing for Favre.

There was a little bit of a comedown on the guy when people watched him get sodomized by the Giants. People started to get that sometimes a QB can't do it all, which actually gave people more of an appreciation for Manning. For the last half of Brady's career, he has been given an absurd amount of weapons. He's back with the solid WR corp and godly TE. However, he hasn't had the big deep threat and he's still money.

Pound for Pound, Brady is a QB god. But is always felt like his HC made him more than he made his HC.

If Brady wins on Sunday, he's going down as the greatest. His stats are godly, he's the best postseason player ever, and while the postseason is the most overrated and least accurate way to gauge a player's success and worth, it does matter.

Shazam!
01-30-2017, 08:55 PM
To me, Elway is the greatest purely on the arm strength, or shall i say, his hard delivery. Which was always why he had many critics. Terry Bradshaw hated Elway because of his deluvery, jealous if the arm strength. His greatest weapon was a weakness to some on the other side:

An over reliance on arm strength

No touch on short tosses and dump offs

Accuracy not as good as his peers (Marino, Kelly, Montana, etc)

Sloppy footwork which was due to his tendency to run because he would have been killed.

His teams getting demolished in Super Bowls gave him a reputation as a choke artist.

Much of these issues have been redeemed, but thats why he sits where he does.

In my mind, hes the best because of the arm strength and delivery style.

Northman
01-30-2017, 09:12 PM
Brady is good enough to have a solid claim to the title.

Early in his career when he was just a good passer everyone made excuses for him because he lacked personnel. As if a solid trio of WR's, a good line, and a pass catching back is something to sniff at. Regardless, when he matured his numbers did hit the heights that they had to hit. To be fair, he needed more time to do it than a lot of the other Qb's in this conversation. Which is something I do hold against him because he was nursed along by his head coach.

Marino...they gave that man the ball and said go win.
Peyton Manning, they have that man the ball and said go win.
Same thing for Favre.

There was a little bit of a comedown on the guy when people watched him get sodomized by the Giants. People started to get that sometimes a QB can't do it all, which actually gave people more of an appreciation for Manning. For the last half of Brady's career, he has been given an absurd amount of weapons. He's back with the solid WR corp and godly TE. However, he hasn't had the big deep threat and he's still money.

Pound for Pound, Brady is a QB god. But is always felt like his HC made him more than he made his HC.

If Brady wins on Sunday, he's going down as the greatest. His stats are godly, he's the best postseason player ever, and while the postseason is the most overrated and least accurate way to gauge a player's success and worth, it does matter.

Elway will still always be #1 for me but you make a solid case for Brady.

King87
01-30-2017, 09:15 PM
Elway will still always be #1 for me but you make a solid case for Brady.

You hit a certain threshold of achievement and you have a claim to stake. I tend to prefer players that I *know* could succeed in any system. Watching Montana try to run the Dolphin's offense would be pretty damn funny.

7DnBrnc53
01-30-2017, 09:48 PM
Sometimes people say more than they intend.... ;)

I used to say it's so hard for a SB-winning QB in his careers final days to drop everything he's had so long and successfully, move across the country, start over with a completely different team and DO IT ALL AGAIN that NO ONE could ever do it—until someone DID. Without taping practices, or play signals, or deflating any balls.

Until/unless someone ELSE does that, it's the mark to beat. Literally EVERYONE else is open to charges of "system QB" because they never did it any other way anywhere else. Not that guy: He TRANSCENDED systems.

As for Graham vs. Elway, Graham was elite, but Reeves would've loved him because he never called his own plays. And his career rushing average would make Hillman cringe. Plus two years after he retired his team was back in the NFL Championship (though they did draft Jim Brown that year, and went 5-7 the year in between.) I still think was the best PLAYER ever, because he was an elite passer, runner and even kicker. But he did it so long ago his stats are nonexistent, so it's purely a matter of opinion with only anecdotal evidence to support it.

Sammy Baugh (a contemporary of Graham) may have been a better passer than Otto, and he led the league in punting, passing, and INT's in 1943.

I have a question, though: You have three coaches in Belichick, Paul Brown, and Walsh that were considered great coaches. Belichick (although he has been cheating) has done wonders in Foxborough. Paul Brown was ahead of his time in the 40's and 50's. And, while Walsh didn't invent the short passing offense (or WCO), he did refine it to a higher level. So, with that in mind, why are Brady, Graham, and Montana given so much credit, but someone like Elway (who took Denver to three SB's in the 80's in spite of Dan Reeves) is considered overrated by a lot of people?

King87
01-30-2017, 09:52 PM
Sammy Baugh (a contemporary of Graham) may have been a better passer than Otto, and he led the league in punting, passing, and INT's in 1943.

I have a question, though: You have three coaches in Belichick, Paul Brown, and Walsh that were considered great coaches. Belichick (although he has been cheating) has done wonders in Foxborough. Paul Brown was ahead of his time in the 40's and 50's. And, while Walsh didn't invent the short passing offense (or WCO), he did refine it to a higher level. So, with that in mind, why are Brady, Graham, and Montana given so much credit, but someone like Elway (who took Denver to three SB's in the 80's in spite of Dan Reeves) is considered overrated by a lot of people?

Because people just see a guy out there throwing the ball like a boss and they forget about everything else. If you walk into Harvard, you're going to see a lot of brilliant people. Most of them, however, had a ton of advantages in life. It's an analogue here. Who knows how Joey Harrington would have done with BB. Or even Matt Cassel had he been a full time starter with BB.

Then again, BB isn't throwing the ball for Brady. He's not sliding around in the pocket, or taking the abuse.

7DnBrnc53
01-31-2017, 06:02 AM
Because people just see a guy out there throwing the ball like a boss and they forget about everything else. If you walk into Harvard, you're going to see a lot of brilliant people. Most of them, however, had a ton of advantages in life. It's an analogue here. Who knows how Joey Harrington would have done with BB. Or even Matt Cassel had he been a full time starter with BB.

Then again, BB isn't throwing the ball for Brady. He's not sliding around in the pocket, or taking the abuse.

Yeah, but it's possible that Belichick's right hand man (Ernie Adams) was talking to Brady through a second frequency in his helmet that the NFL didn't monitor (they cut it off 15 seconds before the snap), and was talking to him right up to (and maybe even after, heaven forbid) the snap of the ball. If that happened (Doug Flutie was the one who found this when he was NE backup 11 years ago), Brady's legitimacy has to come into question.

Dapper Dan
01-31-2017, 08:16 AM
I wouldn't even put Brady above Elway in alphabetical order.

Freyaka
01-31-2017, 09:32 AM
Bradshaw won all his Super Bowls with a HOF running back next to him. So did Aikman. Changes your whole passing game completely. Montana won a SB with Bill Ring and Linville Elliott as his RBs. Before TD, the best Elway played with was Sammy Winder who wasn't terrible but was no Franco or Emmitt. Brady's running backs were largely cast-offs and low picks. Give him his due but Montana is still #1 in my books in terms of Super Bowl play.

I f you are going to use that argument though, so did Elway, we didn't win a Superbowl till Davis came along. Does that diminish Elway too by extension?

Freyaka
01-31-2017, 09:37 AM
He needed about six or seven seasons to have a good year, even in his era. He has one of the worst TD to INT ratios for any QB in the HoF, including his peers in that era.

If he didn't have an all-time team he wouldn't have had the chance to play well when it counted. He is probably the worst player in the HoF.

I dunno...Bettis made it in somehow with his paltry 3.9 YPC rushing average...

Apparently all you have to do to make the HoF is have a long, slightly below average career and play for the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Joel
01-31-2017, 11:29 AM
Montana deserves the top honors hands down IMO. Brady is probably 3-4 behind Manning and Elway, but I cannot agree with #1.
Y'know, it's funny: Brady has as many Rings (more, if we count CCG Rings) but is criticized as a system QB; Terrell Davis is routinely dismissed as a HoF back because his successors regularly churned out 1000 yd seasons in Shannys system, but Joe Cool is different. Even though HIS successor immediately went to three straight NFCCGs against the Cowboys second dynasty, won a SB and finished with a BETTER career rating than Montana.

*ponders*

OrangeHoof
01-31-2017, 11:29 AM
I f you are going to use that argument though, so did Elway, we didn't win a Superbowl till Davis came along. Does that diminish Elway too by extension?

First, Davis isn't in the Hall yet but, secondly, it does diminish Elway slightly. Elway couldn't win a Super Bowl on his arm alone. There's no shame in admitting that. To win championships, you need to have a solid running game so the defense has to respect it. Even Peyton Manning had some great runners.

Joel
01-31-2017, 11:40 AM
First, Davis isn't in the Hall yet but, secondly, it does diminish Elway slightly. Elway couldn't win a Super Bowl on his arm alone. There's no shame in admitting that. To win championships, you need to have a solid running game so the defense has to respect it. Even Peyton Manning had some great runners.
He had some OK runners; the only really great ones were James and Faulk (who was only there Mannings first year) and both were gone before Mannings first SB. But you're preaching to the choir on this one; my point was that if the "system" criticism can keep historys greatest playoff back out of Canton, it DEFINITELY applies to Montana coming along just in time to play in a system that (as much as I loathe it) revolutionized the game to an extent still extant.

It's the EXACT argument used to keep Roger Craig out of Canton even though he once had a season where with more targets than every 49er but Rice. Montana played with more HoFers (including the greatest WR since Don Hutson) than anyone but Bradshaw and (maybe) Starr. It's easy to tell just how replaceable he was: Again, the guy who DID replace him had a BETTER career rating in that system (and the NFLs passer rating might as well have been DESIGNED to rate WC passers.)

Northman
01-31-2017, 11:45 AM
Y'know, it's funny: Brady has as many Rings (more, if we count CCG Rings) but is criticized as a system QB; Terrell Davis is routinely dismissed as a HoF back because his successors regularly churned out 1000 yd seasons in Shannys system, but Joe Cool is different. Even though HIS successor immediately went to three straight NFCCGs against the Cowboys second dynasty, won a SB and finished with a BETTER career rating than Montana.

*ponders*

I actually agree with you a bit here. To me Montana and Brady are virtually the same type of player/QB. In fact i would say Montana had it a little better because of Rice. But if some people consider Brady a system QB than for sure Montana falls in that same category.

WTE
01-31-2017, 12:10 PM
I can't stand when people still refer to Tom Brady as a system QB. He was a system QB early in his career when they simplified the playbook and didn't ask too much from him. But things changed in 2007 when he had both Welker and Moss and set all kinds of passing records.

The term system QB means the quarterback succeeds under a specific type of offensive system but likely cannot replicate those same numbers in a different system. Where do you think the Broncos would be right now if they had Brady in 2016 instead of Paxton/Siemian? I think they would be in Houston.

Look at last years AFC Championship game in Denver when Brady got pummeled 25 times and still was a two point conversion away from bringing the game to OT. System QB's do not do that.

Freyaka
01-31-2017, 12:40 PM
I actually agree with you a bit here. To me Montana and Brady are virtually the same type of player/QB. In fact i would say Montana had it a little better because of Rice. But if some people consider Brady a system QB than for sure Montana falls in that same category.

You mention Rice for Montana, but don't forget that Brady for much of his successful period had Moss and Welker or Gronk to throw to..

Northman
01-31-2017, 12:46 PM
You mention Rice for Montana, but don't forget that Brady for much of his successful period had Moss and Welker or Gronk to throw to..

I think Brady had Moss for like 2-3 years. Welker despite being good is nowhere in Rice's league as a receiver. Also, after Montana left both Steve Bono and Steve Young had the same amount of success in SF as Montana did. So many people want to compare Brady with Matt Cassell (who did nothing after leaving NE) yet forget how successful SF was without Montana. Personally, i think Montana was a great QB, but so is Tom Brady. Neither are as good as John Elway to me but to try and dismiss Brady as a system QB and a product of coaching and surrounding talent and then give a pass to Montana who was in the very same situation is disingenuous to me.

Freyaka
01-31-2017, 12:46 PM
I actually agree with you a bit here. To me Montana and Brady are virtually the same type of player/QB. In fact i would say Montana had it a little better because of Rice. But if some people consider Brady a system QB than for sure Montana falls in that same category.

The reason I cut Montana slack that I don't cut Brady is unlike Brady, Joe had continued success with another team. He actually managed to take the Chiefs to the AFC Championship game in 93 at the end of his career. He was one game away from doing what only Peyton Manning has done (taking two separate teams to the Superbowl)

Freyaka
01-31-2017, 12:50 PM
I think Brady had Moss for like 2-3 years. Welker despite being good is nowhere in Rice's league as a receiver. Also, after Montana left both Steve Bono and Steve Young had the same amount of success in SF as Montana did. So many people want to compare Brady with Matt Cassell (who did nothing after leaving NE) yet forget how successful SF was without Montana. Personally, i think Montana was a great QB, but so is Tom Brady. Neither are as good as John Elway to me but to try and dismiss Brady as a system QB and a product of coaching and surrounding talent and then give a pass to Montana who was in the very same situation is disingenuous to me.

I'm not completely dismissing him due to the system, but it's impossible for it not to have an impact on where I place him. I can't put him #1.

It's possible the only reason Montana is #1 is because I grew up admiring him, he was one of my favorite QB's growing up and living in Chiefs country I saw a lot of games in 93-94 when he was in KC. I admittedly have a soft spot for him that I will never, ever have for Brady.

Northman
01-31-2017, 12:53 PM
I'm not completely dismissing him due to the system, but it's impossible for it not to have an impact on where I place him. I can't put him #1.

It's possible the only reason Montana is #1 is because I grew up admiring him, he was one of my favorite QB's growing up and living in Chiefs country I saw a lot of games in 93-94 when he was in KC. I admittedly have a soft spot for him that I will never, ever have for Brady.

Well, i dont care where people want to place him, thats all subjective. Im just debating the notion that the guy was a system QB. An argument can be made that every SB winner QB had a lot of surrounding talent and good coaching when they won so success of a QB is almost always benefited by other things. If you think Montana is the best ever im ok with that, the only reason why i dont think Montana or Brady is better than Elway is because did more with less up until he finally got help in those other areas. When Montana was faced with having less talent and mediocre coaching he could not even reach the SB. Doesnt mean he sucks but only proves my point about Elway.

dogfish
01-31-2017, 12:54 PM
i'll take elway over either. . . but if we're comparing shady and montana, how many super bowls did montana lose?

WTE
01-31-2017, 12:55 PM
i'll take elway over either. . . but if we're comparing shady and montana, how many super bowls did montana lose?

How many one and done's did Montana have? How many times did his 49ers get crushed in the playoffs?

King87
01-31-2017, 12:55 PM
I think Brady had Moss for like 2-3 years. Welker despite being good is nowhere in Rice's league as a receiver. Also, after Montana left both Steve Bono and Steve Young had the same amount of success in SF as Montana did. So many people want to compare Brady with Matt Cassell (who did nothing after leaving NE) yet forget how successful SF was without Montana. Personally, i think Montana was a great QB, but so is Tom Brady. Neither are as good as John Elway to me but to try and dismiss Brady as a system QB and a product of coaching and surrounding talent and then give a pass to Montana who was in the very same situation is disingenuous to me.

Montana is a way shittier Brady. Even if you adjust for eras and give him some more stats in this era, he's a worse passer.

Montana also had that RB -I forget his name- who had a 1k rushing season in the same year he had a 1k receiving campaign.

Hawgdriver
01-31-2017, 12:56 PM
How many one and done's did Montana have? How many times did his 49ers get crushed in the playoffs?

Brady throws too many game-losing INTs when it matters most for him to favorably compare.

King87
01-31-2017, 12:58 PM
Brady threw too many TD passes for his career for Montana to compare.

Freyaka
01-31-2017, 12:59 PM
How many one and done's did Montana have? How many times did his 49ers get crushed in the playoffs?

Montana never lost a Superbowl to Eli Manning lol....No shame lives up to being the team to give Eli not one, but two very undeserved rings.

Hell, had you guys not choked up two rings to Eli, Peyton may have just retired and never had a desire to come to the Broncos and get one more ring. Who knows how many more rings your team would have without coughing those up to Eli.

WTE
01-31-2017, 01:01 PM
Montana never lost a Superbowl to Eli Manning lol....No shame lives up to being the team to give Eli not one, but two very undeserved rings.

Hell, had you guys not choked up two rings to Eli, Peyton may have just retired and never had a desire to come to the Broncos and get one more ring. Who knows how many more rings your team would have without coughing those up to Eli.

Eli didn't beat NE, their D-line did.

King87
01-31-2017, 01:01 PM
Brady lost to the pass rush. He didn't lose to Eli Manning. QB's don't lose to one another.

Northman
01-31-2017, 01:05 PM
i'll take elway over either. . . but if we're comparing shady and montana, how many super bowls did montana lose?

How many did Elway lose?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-31-2017, 01:07 PM
Montana could improvise against a good pass rush better than Brady, IMO.

King87
01-31-2017, 01:21 PM
Montana could improvise against a good pass rush better than Brady, IMO.

IDK, Brady is a pocket presence god and it takes a complete breakdown of the line for him to get sacked consistently.

I mean ultimately, Brady is a QB god and has surpassed Montana in just about everything.

Neither of them are as good as PFM, though. Manning helped make an offensive system. Manning masks bad offensive lines and he did it for his entire career, sans maybe three seasons in Indy. Brady and Montana got coached by a genius. Manning had to become his own genius.

If one looks at Elway's career, Elway showed that at the time where his skills had declined the most he could manage a game and win it all. He was in the same situation as Brady, but reverse the career timelines. Take the guys who had to overcome adversity. And before anyone goes 'but Brady did overcome adversity when he got the job!' No. He was sitting on the bench when Bledsoe got hurt. That's good variance. He made the most of it, but sitting on a bench is not adversity when its a NFL bench.

Joel
01-31-2017, 01:35 PM
Sammy Baugh (a contemporary of Graham) may have been a better passer than Otto, and he led the league in punting, passing, and INT's in 1943.

I have a question, though: You have three coaches in Belichick, Paul Brown, and Walsh that were considered great coaches. Belichick (although he has been cheating) has done wonders in Foxborough. Paul Brown was ahead of his time in the 40's and 50's. And, while Walsh didn't invent the short passing offense (or WCO), he did refine it to a higher level. So, with that in mind, why are Brady, Graham, and Montana given so much credit, but someone like Elway (who took Denver to three SB's in the 80's in spite of Dan Reeves) is considered overrated by a lot of people?
Dan Reeves wasn't half as bad as most Broncos fans seem to think. If we buy Shazam and OrangeHoofs (compelling) argument that the difference between Elways SB beatdowns in his prime and his wins in his final years was a reliable running game so he didn't have to do it all alone with his arm, that pretty much vindicates Reeves' entire Broncos coaching career.

That also makes it ironic that Elways last game was against a Falcons team Reeves took from 3-13 to 7-9 and then 14-2 with the likes of Chris Chandler under center but Jamaal Anderson in his only All Pro season. And that ANOTHER HoF QB defined by doing it all with his arm yet flaming out in the postseason reached HIS final game via a Shanahan-Kubiak system derided, like Reeves', as "too conservative." Von Miller earned SB MVP, but CJ earned Honorable Mention last year.

Anyway, Graham can be accused of being a product of Browns innovative system. That's the basic point I stole from THGoF about Graham being criticized for not calling his own plays (which the authors further noted practically made him a trailblazer for modern QBs.) Again, like Montana, when Graham retired his team needed all of three years to reach another championship game (though drafting Jim Brown may have helped, a little.) On the other hand, maybe Graham COULD have called his own plays, because as a coach after the 1962 season he did something no other coach had done since the 1960 season or would do again until the 1964 season:

Beat Vince Lombardis Packers—with a college all star team (the final college all stars win against the the NFL Champs in the annual Chicago College All-Star Game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_College_All-Star_Game); Graham was also the all stars coach for their previous win, against his old nemesis Bobby Layne and the Lions.) His tenure as Redskins coach was bad despite Sonny Jurgensen and Charley Taylor, but they did little better when Lombardi succeeded him, so Graham's probably not to blame.

There's a lot to argue for Graham as a player though: Smart enough to complete his medical degree, athletic enough to win an NBA championship before he played a down of pro football. Contemporary accounts from his teammates and Brown claim he was decades ahead of his time in his ability to anticipate his receivers breaks by the set of his shoulders and rifle short passes through coverage yet softly place long ones so they were easily caught. All this in a career that began in a '40s T offense that regularly called on him to be a dual threat runner.

Grahams 1946 season passer rating of 112.1 was the record for FORTY-THREE YEARS until Montana broke it—and, as much as Browns system inspired Walshs, it was no dink and dunk WCO affair: Graham also averaged 10.5 yds/att in 1946, 10.2 the following year and 10.6 in 1953 (Montanas career best was 9.5; Youngs best as a starter was 9.2) His 86.6 CAREER rating is higher than Elway, Marino, Favre and still 8th among retired players (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm) (three of those rated better are Young, Montana and JEFF GARCIA, which is the best demonstration of how much the WCO is built to boost passer ratings at the expense of everything else.)

Not to say that the NFL's gone pass-crazy, but "8th among retired players"="24th overall." Some of those active players (e.g. Rodgers) are legitimately great, but KIRK COUSINS is tied with Matty Ice for 11th best: EVER. The only retired players (by the 224 att/season requirement applied to each years qualifiers) in the top five are (in order) Young, Manning, Warner, Montana and—DAUNTE CULPEPPER. There's a good argument the 14 att/gm (X16=224) minimum established in 1973 is somewhat... antiquated for modern NFL passing: In 1973, NFL teams averaged just over 24 passing att/gm; this year they averaged nearly 36, roughly 50% more (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/).

As for whether Graham is as much a system QB as Brady or Montana:

2008 Cheatriots minus Brady: 11-5
1992 '9ers minus Montana: 14-2, lost NFCCG to SB Champion Cowboys (then did the same at 10-6 in '93, and were 13-3 Champs in '94.)
1956 Browns minus Graham: 5-7

BroncoJoe
01-31-2017, 02:08 PM
First, Davis isn't in the Hall yet but, secondly, it does diminish Elway slightly. Elway couldn't win a Super Bowl on his arm alone. There's no shame in admitting that. To win championships, you need to have a solid running game so the defense has to respect it. Even Peyton Manning had some great runners.

To be fair, Elway did win 5 championships.




AFC Championships... :yo:

King87
01-31-2017, 02:45 PM
The Steelers were runnerless?

Joel
01-31-2017, 02:45 PM
I can't stand when people still refer to Tom Brady as a system QB. He was a system QB early in his career when they simplified the playbook and didn't ask too much from him. But things changed in 2007 when he had both Welker and Moss and set all kinds of passing records.

The term system QB means the quarterback succeeds under a specific type of offensive system but likely cannot replicate those same numbers in a different system. Where do you think the Broncos would be right now if they had Brady in 2016 instead of Paxton/Siemian? I think they would be in Houston.

Look at last years AFC Championship game in Denver when Brady got pummeled 25 times and still was a two point conversion away from bringing the game to OT. System QB's do not do that.
Look at the offense NE* faced, and how much it let ITS QBs get pummeled: We couldn't keep EITHER on his feet HALF a season. Brady had the advantage of great defenses early in his career and DEEPLY foes MOST of his career.

1) Start with a cream puff division ANNUALLY giving him a free pass to the playoffs and the inside track on homefield (another parallels with Montanas teams, which spent ¼ of its schedule beating up on the Aints and Falcons and were only briefly and occasionally challenged by the Rams.)

2) On REACHING the postseason, Brady's faced NOTHING but teams like
a) Gruden and Gannons' Raiders in the OT Tuck Rule game, the Steelers with KORDELL STEWART and Martz' defenseless Rams,
b) Jeff Fizzle, Mannings defenseless Colts and Foxs "just happy—and LUCKY—to be here" Panthers,
c) Mannings defenseless Colts, the Steelers with a rookie Roethlisberger and McNabbs "just happy to be here" Eagles,

d) Mangini and CHAD FREAKING PENNINGTON, Norvs perennial chokers and Mannings defenseless Colts—but on the road, where NE* blew an 18 pt lead to lose,

e) Jax in a rare, brief, playoff appearance, Norvs chokers again, and then the Helmet Catch,
f) Tebow Time and Foxs "just lucky to be here" Broncos, Flaccos Ravens and the Killer Giants again,
g) Schaub, then a loss to Flacco in FOXBOROUGH
h) LUCKS defenseless Colts, then a loss to Mannings far less defenseless Broncos
i) The dregs of the Ravens, Lucks defenseless Colts and a legitimately good Seahawks team so cocky it refused a Beast Mode repeat.
j) Oz' Texans, the defenseless and runnerless Steelers (i.e. no Steelers at all) and the defenseless Falcons, 11-5 in a weak division, barely beating US by a TD.



3) The Tuck Rule (admittedly not NE*s fault,) plus taped walkthroughs, taped signals & deflated balls (UNDENIABLY their fault)—to name just what we KNOW about....

It's like if Manning got to play Grossmans Bears a dozen times, with a do-over any time he lost. When NE* faced genuinely GOOD teams, Brady and the rest more often than not came up short, losing to the likes of Butt Fumble, Jake Imploder and Joe Flameout. Flacco's .500 in Foxborough playoffs, including his first win—as a wildcard his second year. Hell, Bradys Cheatriots almost SINGLEHANDEDLY made ELI MANNING a legitimate HoF candidate! :lol:

I dog Walsh and Montana/Young for getting a free permanent pass to the playoffs, but that was the old NFC that still dominated the AFC just as often, so at least they had to beat good teams to reach the SB IN the playoffs. Teams like Landrys Cowboys dynasty, Parcells' two-time champion Giants, Gibbs' 'Skins dynasty, and Ditkas brutal Bears. That's a gauntlet like none in NFL history; no wonder whoever survived it routinely curbstomped the AFCs flying circuses.

Yet those circuses have usually been Bradys ROUTE to the SB as well as his opponents in it. Against teams whose "game plan" was "score 50 pts and have the final possession" all he needed was a decent D; he's usually had GREAT ones (top 10 all but FOUR of his 16 seasons.) Against foes with decent Ds of their own, his record's less rosy, making Sexy Rexy, Flacco and Eli Manning household names before Von Millers NFL version of the Wrecking Crew chewed him up last year.

PatriotsGuy
01-31-2017, 02:48 PM
This is all I care to contribute to the discussion.

http://www.footballnation.net/articles/hail-to-the-victor-this-erotic-tom-brady-stat-porn-will-make-your-knees-weak

Joel
01-31-2017, 02:49 PM
The Steelers were runnerless?
Le'Veon Bell left early with an injury (again,) and if a 33-year-old DeAngelo Williams were any good Jonathan Stewart wouldn't have his old job in Carolina. But Pitts pass D is barely above average and their run D not even that, which was at least as big a problem.

King87
01-31-2017, 02:50 PM
Williams was beastly last year for them and played well when he was getting snaps this year. I respectfully decline to agree with you.

King87
01-31-2017, 02:56 PM
This is all I care to contribute to the discussion.

http://www.footballnation.net/articles/hail-to-the-victor-this-erotic-tom-brady-stat-porn-will-make-your-knees-weak

It starts by saying it won't use a volume stat measurement and then uses the volume stat measurement while using losses...all the while not taking into account soft divisional opponents and the Patriots ability to win without Brady.

It's a poorly written jerk-off article throwing around jargon in an attempt to seem like the author is in the know. It then goes on a tirade about how QB play matters the most, which is fine, but the fact that it doesn't mention that many of the other all-time great QB's it references often played with heavily flawed teams.

But because you posted it it's an A+ article and I'm going to go buy a salad.

Joel
01-31-2017, 02:56 PM
This is all I care to contribute to the discussion.

http://www.footballnation.net/articles/hail-to-the-victor-this-erotic-tom-brady-stat-porn-will-make-your-knees-weak
Isn't that the blog that plagiarized DECADES old stat work previously published in The Hidden Game of Football (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/index9bb2.html?p=9069), independently duplicated by Michael Neft in SI (http://www.profootballresearchers.org/archives/Website_Files/Coffin_Corner/15-01-506.pdf), and even reiterated (WITH citation) by ME, on THIS VERY SITE (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/323875-The-NFL-Passer-Rating-System-and-Improving-It-for-Rushing)? Then SHUTDOWN because even most of the people WRITING it couldn't take it seriously anymore?

Thanks; can't wait to see their objective original "insights".... :rolleyes:

Northman
01-31-2017, 02:57 PM
Hold up, Williams has 15 Td's in the last 2 seasons with Pitt all on less than 1500 total yds while Bell sat on the sideline due to injury and off the field problems. The only negative on Williams in the past was his health issues but he is a great runner and was a huge impact for the Steelers last year. lol

King87
01-31-2017, 02:57 PM
Joel, we don't disrespect PAGS.

King87
01-31-2017, 02:59 PM
Hold up, Williams has 15 Td's in the last 2 seasons with Pitt all on less than 1500 total yds while Bell sat on the sideline due to injury and off the field problems. The only negative on Williams in the past was his health issues but he is a great runner and was a huge impact for the Steelers last year. lol

There was a stat floating around that two years ago something like 40% of the teams that won the league picked up D.Williams. Yeah, he didn't get a lot of carries because Bell was healthy this year after the suspension, and maybe he declined, but for a year I'd rather have him than a lot of guys at RB.

Joel
01-31-2017, 03:01 PM
Williams was beastly last year for them and played well when he was getting snaps this year. I respectfully decline to agree with you.
Fair enough; reasonable men can differ. But, in my turn, I must assert that even Ronnie Hillmans CAREER average (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillRo00.htm) is >3.5 yds/att (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillDe02.htm), behind a FAR worse line.

2015 Williams may have been beastly; 2016, not so much.


Hold up, Williams has 15 Td's in the last 2 seasons with Pitt all on less than 1500 total yds while Bell sat on the sideline due to injury and off the field problems.
NFL.com says he actually had >1700 yds (http://www.nfl.com/player/deangelowilliams/2495979/profile) the last TWO years—but only 461 of them and 4 of the TDs were THIS year. On 98 attempts and 18 receptions; that may be "beastly," but in the sense I believe King meant.

Northman
01-31-2017, 03:03 PM
Fair enough; reasonable men can differ. But, in my turn, I must assert that even Ronnie Hillmans CAREER average (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillRo00.htm) is >3.5 yds/att (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillDe02.htm), behind a FAR worse line.

2015 Williams may have been beastly; 2016, not so much.

He only started 4 games this year and he still managed to rush for 4 TD's in limited action.

Joel
01-31-2017, 03:07 PM
Joel, we don't disrespect PAGS.
I call 'em like I see 'em, with neither fear nor favor. ;)

Joel
01-31-2017, 03:08 PM
He only started 4 games this year and he still managed to rush for 4 TD's in limited action.
Yds/att is yds/att, whether in 4 games or 400. And 3.5 yds/att is sub-Hillman. Again, with a MUCH better line.

PatriotsGuy
01-31-2017, 03:09 PM
I call 'em like I see 'em, with neither fear nor favor. ;)

Since this is all opinion based anyway, here's another opinion.

https://twitter.com/fran_tarkenton/status/808765902539853824?lang=tr

Northman
01-31-2017, 03:22 PM
Yds/att is yds/att, whether in 4 games or 400. And 3.5 yds/att is sub-Hillman. Again, with a MUCH better line.

I love how you are always moving your goal posts to fit your criteria. lmao

First its this dude sucks but then when the numbers prove you wrong all of a sudden its because of the line, etc.

WTE
01-31-2017, 03:24 PM
Look at the offense NE* faced, and how much it let ITS QBs get pummeled: We couldn't keep EITHER on his feet HALF a season. Brady had the advantage of great defenses early in his career and DEEPLY foes MOST of his career.

1) Start with a cream puff division ANNUALLY giving him a free pass to the playoffs and the inside track on homefield (another parallels with Montanas teams, which spent ¼ of its schedule beating up on the Aints and Falcons and were only briefly and occasionally challenged by the Rams.)

2) On REACHING the postseason, Brady's faced NOTHING but teams like
a) Gruden and Gannons' Raiders in the OT Tuck Rule game, the Steelers with KORDELL STEWART and Martz' defenseless Rams,
b) Jeff Fizzle, Mannings defenseless Colts and Foxs "just happy—and LUCKY—to be here" Panthers,
c) Mannings defenseless Colts, the Steelers with a rookie Roethlisberger and McNabbs "just happy to be here" Eagles,

d) Mangini and CHAD FREAKING PENNINGTON, Norvs perennial chokers and Mannings defenseless Colts—but on the road, where NE* blew an 18 pt lead to lose,

e) Jax in a rare, brief, playoff appearance, Norvs chokers again, and then the Helmet Catch,
f) Tebow Time and Foxs "just lucky to be here" Broncos, Flaccos Ravens and the Killer Giants again,
g) Schaub, then a loss to Flacco in FOXBOROUGH
h) LUCKS defenseless Colts, then a loss to Mannings far less defenseless Broncos
i) The dregs of the Ravens, Lucks defenseless Colts and a legitimately good Seahawks team so cocky it refused a Beast Mode repeat.
j) Oz' Texans, the defenseless and runnerless Steelers (i.e. no Steelers at all) and the defenseless Falcons, 11-5 in a weak division, barely beating US by a TD.



3) The Tuck Rule (admittedly not NE*s fault,) plus taped walkthroughs, taped signals & deflated balls (UNDENIABLY their fault)—to name just what we KNOW about....

It's like if Manning got to play Grossmans Bears a dozen times, with a do-over any time he lost. When NE* faced genuinely GOOD teams, Brady and the rest more often than not came up short, losing to the likes of Butt Fumble, Jake Imploder and Joe Flameout. Flacco's .500 in Foxborough playoffs, including his first win—as a wildcard his second year. Hell, Bradys Cheatriots almost SINGLEHANDEDLY made ELI MANNING a legitimate HoF candidate! :lol:

I dog Walsh and Montana/Young for getting a free permanent pass to the playoffs, but that was the old NFC that still dominated the AFC just as often, so at least they had to beat good teams to reach the SB IN the playoffs. Teams like Landrys Cowboys dynasty, Parcells' two-time champion Giants, Gibbs' 'Skins dynasty, and Ditkas brutal Bears. That's a gauntlet like none in NFL history; no wonder whoever survived it routinely curbstomped the AFCs flying circuses.

Yet those circuses have usually been Bradys ROUTE to the SB as well as his opponents in it. Against teams whose "game plan" was "score 50 pts and have the final possession" all he needed was a decent D; he's usually had GREAT ones (top 10 all but FOUR of his 16 seasons.) Against foes with decent Ds of their own, his record's less rosy, making Sexy Rexy, Flacco and Eli Manning household names before Von Millers NFL version of the Wrecking Crew chewed him up last year.

I hope you didn't write this post for me b/c I did not read a thing.

Joel
01-31-2017, 03:44 PM
I love how you are always moving your goal posts to fit your criteria. lmao

First its this dude sucks but then when the numbers prove you wrong all of a sudden its because of the line, etc.
No, 3.5 yds/att sucks with ANY line: It just sucks THAT MUCH MORE with a GOOD one. 2015 Williams had a good season, but NE* didn't face 2015 Williams, did they? And 2016 Williams has a worse average than even RONNIE HILLMANS CAREER average—despite an EXCELLENT line instead of Hilmans GARBAGE line.

That's not "moving the goalposts," it's SPOTLIGHTING them.


I hope you didn't write this post for me b/c I did not read a thing.
Try sounding out the words. :)

7DnBrnc53
01-31-2017, 04:52 PM
Look at the offense NE* faced, and how much it let ITS QBs get pummeled: We couldn't keep EITHER on his feet HALF a season. Brady had the advantage of great defenses early in his career and DEEPLY foes MOST of his career.

1) Start with a cream puff division ANNUALLY giving him a free pass to the playoffs and the inside track on homefield (another parallels with Montanas teams, which spent ¼ of its schedule beating up on the Aints and Falcons and were only briefly and occasionally challenged by the Rams.)

2) On REACHING the postseason, Brady's faced NOTHING but teams like
a) Gruden and Gannons' Raiders in the OT Tuck Rule game, the Steelers with KORDELL STEWART and Martz' defenseless Rams,
b) Jeff Fizzle, Mannings defenseless Colts and Foxs "just happy—and LUCKY—to be here" Panthers,
c) Mannings defenseless Colts, the Steelers with a rookie Roethlisberger and McNabbs "just happy to be here" Eagles,
d) Mangini and CHAD FREAKING PENNINGTON, Norvs perennial chokers and Mannings defenseless Colts—but on the road, where NE* blew an 18 pt lead to lose,
e) Jax in a rare, brief, playoff appearance, Norvs chokers again, and then the Helmet Catch,
f) Tebow Time and Foxs "just lucky to be here" Broncos, Flaccos Ravens and the Killer Giants again,
g) Schaub, then a loss to Flacco in FOXBOROUGH
h) LUCKS defenseless Colts, then a loss to Mannings far less defenseless Broncos
i) The dregs of the Ravens, Lucks defenseless Colts and a legitimately good Seahawks team so cocky it refused a Beast Mode repeat.
j) Oz' Texans, the defenseless and runnerless Steelers (i.e. no Steelers at all) and the defenseless Falcons, 11-5 in a weak division, barely beating US by a TD.

3) The Tuck Rule (admittedly not NE*s fault,) plus taped walkthroughs, taped signals & deflated balls (UNDENIABLY their fault)—to name just what we KNOW about....

It's like if Manning got to play Grossmans Bears a dozen times, with a do-over any time he lost. When NE* faced genuinely GOOD teams, Brady and the rest more often than not came up short, losing to the likes of Butt Fumble, Jake Imploder and Joe Flameout. Flacco's .500 in Foxborough playoffs, including his first win—as a wildcard his second year. Hell, Bradys Cheatriots almost SINGLEHANDEDLY made ELI MANNING a legitimate HoF candidate!

I dog Walsh and Montana/Young for getting a free permanent pass to the playoffs, but that was the old NFC that still dominated the AFC just as often, so at least they had to beat good teams to reach the SB IN the playoffs. Teams like Landrys Cowboys dynasty, Parcells' two-time champion Giants, Gibbs' 'Skins dynasty, and Ditkas brutal Bears. That's a gauntlet like none in NFL history; no wonder whoever survived it routinely curbstomped the AFCs flying circuses.

Yet those circuses have usually been Bradys ROUTE to the SB as well as his opponents in it. Against teams whose "game plan" was "score 50 pts and have the final possession" all he needed was a decent D; he's usually had GREAT ones (top 10 all but FOUR of his 16 seasons.) Against foes with decent Ds of their own, his record's less rosy, making Sexy Rexy, Flacco and Eli Manning household names before Von Millers NFL version of the Wrecking Crew chewed him up last year.

Excellent, Joel. Brady has faced a lot of bad QB's in the playoffs (Tebow, Schaub, Stewart, Sanchez, Oz), and some inconsistent ones (Flacco, Plummer). He has also beat up on some tomato cans in the postseason the last six years (2011 Tebow Broncos, 2013 and 14 Mickey Mouse Colts, 2016 Texans). And, they always seem to own the Steelers because their coaches (Cowher, Tomlin) aren't very good, and they play the same mind-numbingly stupid defense against Tom every time (only rush three, play zone).


if a 33-year-old DeAngelo Williams were any good Jonathan Stewart wouldn't have his old job in Carolina.

Actually, Joel, Williams has run well for the Steelers the last two years. He just hasn't been that healthy. He wasn't available for either playoff game last year, and didn't play much in the first two Steeler playoff games this year.

Joel
02-01-2017, 12:14 AM
Excellent, Joel. Brady has faced a lot of bad QB's in the playoffs (Tebow, Schaub, Stewart, Sanchez, Oz), and some inconsistent ones (Flacco, Plummer). He has also beat up on some tomato cans in the postseason the last six years (2011 Tebow Broncos, 2013 and 14 Mickey Mouse Colts, 2016 Texans). And, they always seem to own the Steelers because their coaches (Cowher, Tomlin) aren't very good, and they play the same mind-numbingly stupid defense against Tom every time (only rush three, play zone).

Actually, Joel, Williams has run well for the Steelers the last two years. He just hasn't been that healthy. He wasn't available for either playoff game last year, and didn't play much in the first two Steeler playoff games this year.
Maybe, but whether it's health, age or something else, 3.5 yds/att is an AWFUL season average; I'd hate to rely on it in the playoffs when even HILLMAN did more.

NightTerror218
02-01-2017, 02:28 PM
If you put team accomplishments as something to rate a team then this list is understandable. But if you take into account who was on roster and who had better players around them. I would not agree with list.

#1 Elway most physically gifted and clutch qb ever.
#2 manning smartwst QB to ever play game and most single player accolades
#3 brady very clutch but has belicheat which some say is greatest coach
#4 marino 2nd most physically gifted but never had complete team to help win
#5 montana he had the goat of all nfl players in my mind rice to throw too.

Joel
02-01-2017, 05:54 PM
Manning is this generations Marino, with similarly supernatural pre-snap read and lightning release, a good C and WRs, but little defensive help (until last year.)
Brady is this generations Montana, with a brutally efficient system and great supporting cast.

I'm unsure Elway has a modern analog, but if so it's probably Rodgers, who's elite in every attribute but a SB starter only when his D is good. Makes me wonder if Nelson and Cobb are anything but a Three Amigos sequel. Remember when stealing away Greg Jennings was going to singlehandedly make Minny a contender? ;)

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-01-2017, 08:07 PM
Manning is this generations Marino, with similarly supernatural pre-snap read and lightning release, a good C and WRs, but little defensive help (until last year.)
Brady is this generations Montana, with a brutally efficient system and great supporting cast.

I'm unsure Elway has a modern analog, but if so it's probably Rodgers, who's elite in every attribute but a SB starter only when his D is good. Makes me wonder if Nelson and Cobb are anything but a Three Amigos sequel. Remember when stealing away Greg Jennings was going to singlehandedly make Minny a contender? ;)
Joe Montana was a playmaker with his feet.

King87
02-01-2017, 08:52 PM
Joe Montana was a playmaker with his feet.

Ehh....playmaker is generous. I won't say you're wrong. However, I do think you're 'rounding up'.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-01-2017, 09:07 PM
Ehh....playmaker is generous. I won't say you're wrong. However, I do think you're 'rounding up'.
Compared to Brady he was Fran Tarkenton :D

I know he wasn't Elway, but he was really good at throwing on the move, similar to Rich Gannon or Jake Plummer

Joel
02-01-2017, 09:16 PM
Joe Montana was a playmaker with his feet.
With his footWORK, maybe, but so's Brady. No one ever mistook Montana for Young though: As a runner, Montanas career numbers were 3.7 yds/att with 20 TDs and a long of 21. Not terrible, but hardly a "dual-threat;" Manning has nearly as many TDs (albeit with less than half the average) and a career long of 33 (somehow....)

Jaded
02-01-2017, 10:52 PM
Montana was pretty mobile, in a Jake Plummer kinda way, but not really. He just didn't tuck the ball and run like a mindless ****ing idiot, ala these garbage QB's everybody drools about these days. He didn't have to.

**** "dual threats".

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-01-2017, 11:10 PM
With his footWORK, maybe, but so's Brady. No one ever mistook Montana for Young though: As a runner, Montanas career numbers were 3.7 yds/att with 20 TDs and a long of 21. Not terrible, but hardly a "dual-threat;" Manning has nearly as many TDs (albeit with less than half the average) and a career long of 33 (somehow....)

Did you not see my above post? I conceded he was no Elway. Montana made plays with his feet by throwing on the move. He was no Steve Young, and inversely he was no Brady either.

Joel
02-02-2017, 01:27 AM
Did you not see my above post? I conceded he was no Elway. Montana made plays with his feet by throwing on the move. He was no Steve Young, and inversely he was no Brady either.
In point of fact, no, because you made it while I was replying to the previous one. But Brady throws on the move OK; side effect of routinely throwing <5 yds.

gregbroncs
02-04-2017, 06:36 PM
But wouldnt you agree that every successful QB has great talent and coaching around them? Especially when they win championships? I mean, Montana always had great talent around him in SF, same with Young. When Young was in Tampa he sucked so i think for any QB to really succeed they need to have the rest to be as successful as they are.
That is why I would argue Elway was the GOAT. Because I believe he could have taken any of the SF teams to the SB. But I don't think Montana could have taken any of Elway's first three SB appearance teams to the SB. Those are the 2 guys I consider #1 and #2 on that list. After that I actually think might be Brady/Manning/whoever else you want to name. But for my money it's Elway then Montana.

Edit: Just looked at his list. Any top 10 list with Favre on it I think is a joke. I view him as the #1 most over rated QB in the history of the sport. Played with great players, played with receivers who routinely had to bail him out and still threw way too many INT's. I credit Farve as a major reason Denver won that 1st SB, I still think that GB team was probably more talented but the difference in the game came down to Favre's mistakes.

King87
02-04-2017, 06:37 PM
Montana was a limited player in a perfect situation. Tom Brady is significantly better than him. Montana doesn't compare to Manning, either.

gregbroncs
02-04-2017, 06:42 PM
Montana was a limited player in a perfect situation. Tom Brady is significantly better than him. Montana doesn't compare to Manning, either.I can hear that argument. I don't believe either of Brady or Manning could have taken those 1st 3 teams to the SB either. Those teams really had no business being there, except for Elway.

King87
02-04-2017, 07:37 PM
I can hear that argument. I don't believe either of Brady or Manning could have taken those 1st 3 teams to the SB either. Those teams really had no business being there, except for Elway.

Manning made bad lines look great and average WR's looks great. I don't think any other QB ever did as much for an offense as he did for his. Elway was a stud, as well. Montana, not a stud. Any team that he could produce well on most other good to great QB's could produce on. The teams that his peers could produce on he could not. Like I said, watching Montana try to run Marino's offense would be hilarious.

slim
02-04-2017, 08:00 PM
Manning made bad lines look great and average WR's looks great. I don't think any other QB ever did as much for an offense as he did for his. Elway was a stud, as well. Montana, not a stud. Any team that he could produce well on most other good to great QB's could produce on. The teams that his peers could produce on he could not. Like I said, watching Montana try to run Marino's offense would be hilarious.

I think watching Brady on the 80s Broncos would be just as hilarious.

King87
02-04-2017, 08:28 PM
I think watching Brady on the 80s Broncos would be just as hilarious.

He's lived off of a defense before.

slim
02-04-2017, 08:37 PM
He's lived off of a defense before.

How does that relate to the Broncos of the 80s?

King87
02-04-2017, 08:45 PM
How does that relate to the Broncos of the 80s?

I'm saying that's probably his best bet. He really was quite bland with inflated numbers as a young QB.

Slick
02-04-2017, 09:39 PM
Montana was pretty mobile, in a Jake Plummer kinda way, but not really. He just didn't tuck the ball and run like a mindless ****ing idiot, ala these garbage QB's everybody drools about these days. He didn't have to.

**** "dual threats".

Good point. I still love mobility. Probably because I grew up watching it every Sunday.

Mobile QBs can break a defense's spirit. Guys who can make a first down with their legs or buy time and make something out of nothing are more valuable. How many times did we see John do that? They still have to be able to sit in the pocket and throw.

Labeling a player dual threat usually means they can throw and run but most of them can't throw with consistency. There were a few really good dual threat QBs however. Give me Elway, Montana(mobile enough), Young, Rodgers, Staubach and you can have Brady, Manning, Marino, Kelly, Aikman.



Side note: I went to the last game ever played at Mile High Stadium. A flag football game sponsored by Village Inn. Elway vs Marino and a bunch of former NFL stars.

Montana beat Elway and threw accurate darts all night. Dude put on a clinic. I was impressed.

King87
02-04-2017, 09:47 PM
Slick is breaking my heart.

7DnBrnc53
02-05-2017, 07:50 AM
He's lived off of a defense before.

Giving up 39, 42, and 55 points in the Super Bowl isn't defense. It's an abomination.

PatriotsGuy
02-05-2017, 03:42 PM
"As much as I love John, it's hard to say Brady is not the greatest," said former Broncos running back Terrell Davis, also a newly announced Hall of Famer, who teamed with Elway for two titles. "Let's be honest there. What we've seen him do with rosters that other teams would've gone 2-14 or 3-13 with, this man has taken to championships. You can't ignore that fact."


http://www.wcvb.com/article/retired-nfl-greats-brady-is-the-best-ever/8678945

7DnBrnc53
02-05-2017, 04:54 PM
http://www.wcvb.com/article/retired-nfl-greats-brady-is-the-best-ever/8678945

Is that because of Brady, or Belichick? I tend to think the latter. Davis just says that because he is on the NFL Network, and they are paid to kiss Brady's rear end.

Nomad
02-05-2017, 04:58 PM
I love me some Elway.

Slick
02-05-2017, 05:03 PM
It breaks your heart that I like mobile QBs instead of pure pocket passers?

Nomad
02-05-2017, 05:09 PM
I will say Tom Brady throws one of the best spirals I ever seen with such ease, and does give Montana a run for his money as the 'coolest cat' in the pocket.

Jaded
02-05-2017, 05:56 PM
I will say Tom Brady throws one of the best spirals I ever seen with such ease, and does give Montana a run for his money as the 'coolest cat' in the pocket.

Soft balls make nice spirals.

Jaded
02-05-2017, 06:03 PM
Good point. I still love mobility. Probably because I grew up watching it every Sunday.

Mobile QBs can break a defense's spirit. Guys who can make a first down with their legs or buy time and make something out of nothing are more valuable. How many times did we see John do that? They still have to be able to sit in the pocket and throw.

Labeling a player dual threat usually means they can throw and run but most of them can't throw with consistency. There were a few really good dual threat QBs however. Give me Elway, Montana(mobile enough), Young, Rodgers, Staubach and you can have Brady, Manning, Marino, Kelly, Aikman.



Side note: I went to the last game ever played at Mile High Stadium. A flag football game sponsored by Village Inn. Elway vs Marino and a bunch of former NFL stars.

Montana beat Elway and threw accurate darts all night. Dude put on a clinic. I was impressed.

I prefer a QB that scrambles to buy time, Elway and Ben LookAtMyCockberger. I don't consider these guys a dual-threat, the "dual-threat" label didn't come into use until the Mike Vicks and such (they gonna revolutionize the game, ya know?). Dual-threat is one of the categories that recruiting breaks QB's down into, not sure if you follow recruiting, generally the dual-threats are just garbage QB's that can run (Lamar Jackson). Once they develop into a passer that can run (Wentz) they lose the dual-threat label.

Joel
02-06-2017, 12:10 AM
http://www.wcvb.com/article/retired-nfl-greats-brady-is-the-best-ever/8678945
Other teams went 11-5 with it when Brady only played ½ game all year. Hell, a 3rd year backup went 2-0 with this roster, and when he got hurt even a 3rd round ROOKIE managed .500, including a 27-0 blowout of a pretty good Texans D. But Brady scored 25 unanswered on the 28th best scoring and yardage D: YtMND.


I prefer a QB that scrambles to buy time, Elway and Ben LookAtMyCockberger. I don't consider these guys a dual-threat, the "dual-threat" label didn't come into use until the Mike Vicks and such (they gonna revolutionize the game, ya know?). Dual-threat is one of the categories that recruiting breaks QB's down into, not sure if you follow recruiting, generally the dual-threats are just garbage QB's that can run (Lamar Jackson). Once they develop into a passer that can run (Wentz) they lose the dual-threat label.
That's revisionist history; the term "dual-threat" has been around a lot longer than ANY of those guys. It's actually a SPECIALIZED form of the TRIPLE-threats that were all the rage once the forward pass was legalized, but the last QB who kicked on a regular basis was Blanda.

This 112-year-old fad will never last; sure. It's an increasingly popular antidote to a world where pass protection's REGRESSING despite ever more innovative blitz designs demanding they keep pace. Reducing a pass rushing, run stuffing and coverage freak like Von Miller to a spy is a clear win; maybe your best chance. ;)

Hawgdriver
02-06-2017, 12:26 AM
Montana was a limited player in a perfect situation. Tom Brady is significantly better than him. Montana doesn't compare to Manning, either.

Uh huh. Wow you are smart.

King87
02-06-2017, 12:31 AM
Uh huh. Wow you are smart.

:beer:

Hawgdriver
02-06-2017, 12:32 AM
:beer:

:beer:

King87
02-06-2017, 12:39 AM
:beer:

I still hate you, though. :beer:


It's the good hate, though.

Hawgdriver
02-06-2017, 12:42 AM
I still hate you, though. :beer:


It's the good hate, though.

You disarmed me pretty brutally with the beer guys. Well played, nemesis.

King87
02-06-2017, 12:43 AM
You disarmed me pretty brutally with the beer guys. Well played, nemesis.

It's all I had after you humbled me by pointing out that I'm a moron.

Luckily my smiley game is super strong.

Jaded
02-06-2017, 01:58 AM
Other teams went 11-5 with it when Brady only played ½ game all year. Hell, a 3rd year backup went 2-0 with this roster, and when he got hurt even a 3rd round ROOKIE managed .500, including a 27-0 blowout of a pretty good Texans D. But Brady scored 25 unanswered on the 28th best scoring and yardage D: YtMND.


That's revisionist history; the term "dual-threat" has been around a lot longer than ANY of those guys. It's actually a SPECIALIZED form of the TRIPLE-threats that were all the rage once the forward pass was legalized, but the last QB who kicked on a regular basis was Blanda.

This 112-year-old fad will never last; sure. It's an increasingly popular antidote to a world where pass protection's REGRESSING despite ever more innovative blitz designs demanding they keep pace. Reducing a pass rushing, run stuffing and coverage freak like Von Miller to a spy is a clear win; maybe your best chance. ;)

Prove it.

Joel
02-06-2017, 04:55 AM
Prove it.
There's a couple newspaper pics of the undisputed original triple-threat player (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-threat_man): One's from 1906, the other 1905 (which is his biggest claim to being the first: Because the forward pass was illegal until 1905, so there COULDN'T be any earlier ones.) Electric football even has a piece for it (https://www.tudorgames.com/2-triple-threat-quarterbacks-white-only.html) and, while I don't know how long it's existed, I'm guessing quite a while, because I'm pretty sure it's been a while since selling electric football games was a profitable business.

Paul Hornung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Hornung) was a triple-threat, which is why he set an NFL season scoring record that lasted 46 years until this years HoF inductee LaDainian Tomlinson broke it when he broke the season rushing TD record—in FOUR MORE GAMES. And even that wouldn't have been enough if the two TDs Hornung threw were counted: The margins only 4 pts even without them.

Then there was the greatest triple-threat of all: Jim Thorpe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe).

Pop Warner initially refused to let Thorpe join the football team because he didn't want his track teams star athlete broken by a game that had been KILLING DOZENS of players just two years earlier (prompting the adoption of the forward pass, the seven-man line of scrimmage and the creation of the NCAA to avert a federal ban.)


Thorpe, however, convinced Warner to let him try some rushing plays in practice against the school team's defense; Warner assumed he would be tackled easily and give up the idea.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe#cite_note-Warner-16) Thorpe "ran around past and through them not once, but twice".[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe#cite_note-Warner-16) He then walked over to Warner and said "Nobody is going to tackle Jim", while flipping him the ball.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe#cite_note-Warner-16)

Thorpes stats are virtually nonexistent (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThorJi20.htm) because he was already 34 when the infant NFL was founded with him as president, and even then his best years were behind him, but the lingering notoriety of his past Olympic and NFL marvels may have been the biggest thing that kept the nascent NFL solvent (if only just.) He ran like the wind around and over defenders, threw far and accurately, and entertained fans with pre-game warmups that included standing at midfield and drop-kicking a ball over the uprights, then turning around, grabbing another ball, and drop-kicking it through the other one. And remember: Until 1932 (four years after his final game) the goal posts were the same place as now.

Dual-threats are a step down from that. Wikipedia cites Tobin Rote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-threat_quarterback#Early_history_.281950s.E2.80.93 70s.29) as the "first," but remember, well into the '40s the T was dominant, passing uncommon and two-way play mandatory: Passers couldn't even GET ON THE FIELD unless capable runners (and at least decent at some defensive spot, usually DE because they covered receivers: Sammy Baugh set the record for most TDs in a game as a QB AND most Ints in a game as a DE.) Pocket passing specialists couldn't SURVIVE that game.

Who threw the game-winning TD in the original NFL Championship Game? Bronko Nagurski, who's rightly remembered as a RUNNER, because that's what he mainly did. In fact, he wasn't even Chicagos primary passer that year, Keith Molesworth (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoleKe20.htm) was: And still had more runs than passes every year of his career.

Harry Newman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewmHa21.htm) led the NFL in passing as a rookie but threw just 6 times more than he ran.

Glenn Presnell (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PresGl20.htm) led the NFL in Int% in 1933, throwing 12 to just 6 TDs on 125 throws—but All Pro ANYWAY because he ALSO got an NFL-best 6 TDs on 188 runs.

That's not to say a teams leading rusher was usually its leading passer as well; back then it was EVERYTHING "by committee," like if you had Aaron Rodgers starting at QB, Cam Newton starting at HB and Rapistburger starting at FB. Presnell ran as much as any primary passer, which was plenty, but his team ran Dutch Clark just as often for more, earning him 6 straight All Pro seasons and the NFLs most rushing TDs half of them: While he still threw 4-5 times/game.

Believe it or not, the T actually INCREASED passing: Cecil Isbell ran nearly as much he threw his first three years, and was All Pro two of them—but the year he wasn't, Clark Shaugnessy revived the T at Stanford, then "coached up" Halas to use it on the 'Skins in the NFL Championship: 73-0, still the highest score in ANY NFL game, and suddenly T QBs were literally the only game in town. The next year, Isbell was the NFLs All Pro passing leader with >200 throws and <100 runs.

Before anyone jumps in with what amounts to "pre-TV football doesn't count," also remember I was asked to prove dual- and triple-threats alike have been around since before Fran Tarkenton or Roger the Dodger were even BORN, much less any modern dual-threats.

WTE
02-06-2017, 07:12 AM
Brady drops mic.

Close the thread.

Freyaka
02-06-2017, 10:20 AM
Brady drops mic.

Close the thread.

Don't you mean the NFL script drops the mic... Last night for the first time in my life I really felt like I was watching WWE and not a true professional sport...

Hawgdriver
02-06-2017, 11:09 AM
Don't you mean the NFL script drops the mic... Last night for the first time in my life I really felt like I was watching WWE and not a true professional sport...

The extra point bouncing off the upright was a nice touch by the scriptwriters to make it extra believable.

Timmy!
02-06-2017, 11:25 AM
The extra point bouncing off the upright was a nice touch by the scriptwriters to make it extra believable.

Ya....and that Eddleman catch. Sooooo scripted.

Northman
02-06-2017, 11:27 AM
Ya....and that Eddleman catch. Sooooo scripted.

Oh come on! You know they were practicing that for HOURS! Lol

*fart*

Hawgdriver
02-06-2017, 12:02 PM
Oh come on! You know they were practicing that for HOURS! Lol

*fart*

That explains what the half-time show choreographers were doing instead!

Jaded
02-06-2017, 08:40 PM
If I was a Falcons fan I'd think the fix was in, Typical P*triots game. Don't even review the game winning TD, call offensive holding when a P*triof defender tackles a receiver by the facemask.

Among other things.

Meanwhile Shanahan taking it on the chin for being the same aggressive playcaller that got the Falcons to the SB to begin with.

Fans are stupid, NFL knows it.

Northman
02-07-2017, 08:51 AM
Lol

BroncoJoe
02-07-2017, 10:48 AM
If I was a Falcons fan I'd think the fix was in, Typical P*triots game. Don't even review the game winning TD, call offensive holding when a P*triof defender tackles a receiver by the facemask.

Among other things.

Meanwhile Shanahan taking it on the chin for being the same aggressive playcaller that got the Falcons to the SB to begin with.

Fans are stupid, NFL knows it.

Every TD is reviewed. Didn't you see the shot of Brady telling his teammates to calm down? The officials just never got to announce it. Or, maybe they did but with all the mayhem happening on the field they never showed it on TV.

Freyaka
02-07-2017, 12:14 PM
Every TD is reviewed. Didn't you see the shot of Brady telling his teammates to calm down? The officials just never got to announce it. Or, maybe they did but with all the mayhem happening on the field they never showed it on TV.

They obviously didn't review it though because his knee was down before the ball crossed the goal line.

Hawgdriver
02-07-2017, 12:20 PM
They obviously didn't review it though because his knee was down before the ball crossed the goal line.

They reviewed it. It was inconclusive.