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Cugel
01-26-2017, 06:28 PM
Since there has been endless discussions of the Broncos OL future, and lots of people criticized me for making pretty obvious statements that last year's OL will probably be back, I thought I'd post this. Former Bronco T Tyler Polumbus talks on 104.3 The Fan about the OL prospects in FA and lays down some Reality 101 for the fans. Definitely worth a read for the inside scoop: (http://1043thefan.com/category/podcast_player/?a=10010862&sid=1148&n=CJ%20and%20Stokley)


Tyler Polumbus: "Here's something I think people need to come to grips with. The majority of the OL they had last year will be the majority of your starters next year as well. It just doesn't work that you can go out and just find a new offensive line. That's not the way it works. And for the most part, many of these guys played at a level where, although it was not the level that you expected or that they expected, was still at a level where it's kinda difficult to replace them.

Because, like I said earlier, finding really good Offensive linemen is hard to do. It's just hard to do. And that's why average guys play a long time in the NFL. It is really hard to come by elite LTs.

Russell Okung? Did he play like an elite LT this year? No. He did not. Has he in the past? Yeah, he has. He's proven he has that capability.

How did he play this year? Well, it wasn't at a level like many fans think it was. It was not a disaster. It was not an Achilles' Heel. You're not going out in FA and find someone better than him unless you trade for a Joe Thomas. Maybe a Joe Staley. There's only a handful of guys who are in that category of elite LT. So, Russell's probably going to be your LT next year - IF they can get the new contract figured out.

Because they're not going to pay him what he's due in March. In March he's due $1 M roster bonus, and that guarantees the next 2 years at roughly $10M a year. They're not going to do that. They're not going to do that, but I think it's a strong likelihood that you see Russell next year as your LT on a new contract.

And going down the list of Broncos OL, and I would argue that many of these guys played at a level where it's tough to find anybody that's a lot better than that.

Will we find a new RT? Will we find someone new at that spot? Probably. You know, that spot was the one spot where you would look at it and say "that was entirely unacceptable. That was not a good enough performance to maintain your job." The rest of these guys, if they can find somebody better, they will. And if they can replace them they will. But, I'm just telling 'ya it's not that easy and the likelihood of replacing the rest of them is not that high.

So, I look at the tackles that are available and I wonder, what is the best way to find an upgrade. In FA? Or in the draft?

Brandon Stokely: "Well, here's another thing you have to look at. YOu gotta realize that the scheme has changed from last year and the coaches have changed from last year. So, there's a big difference heading into this year from what we saw last year. So, maybe those guys will fit better in this new scheme. And maybe, these new coaches will get more out of them than what we saw previously. You also have to remember when you're looking at this Broncos OL that you are evaluating what you saw last year, but you have to look at this year and say "this coaching staff is going to be different. It's going to be a totally different scheme. And they're going to be coached differently. Maybe they will fit this coaching scheme better.

Maybe LG Max Garcia is a better power player and will fit better with Mike McCoy and that system than he did the Kubiak system. So, they're not going to change all these linemen. Will there be some changes? Yes. I agree with you. I think Donald Stephenson is the one guy who is not back and they have to look for a RT. But everybody else for the most part will be back.

Connor McGovern? Can you take a big step up this year at the G position? And maybe you find a guy or two in the draft or in FA who doesn't cost a lot of money."

Tyler Polumbus: "I'm looking at the names of potential free agents at the right tackle spot and there's only a couple who even intrigue me.

Sebastian Bolmer. That's a name that actually intrigues me. He's got major injury history. He's had long term success out in New England, but he's been hurt a lot and he's made a lot of money. Now would I take a flyer on a guy of his caliber who's had his type of success in a scheme where I don't need him to be that athletic any more, and he's not that athletic any more. But, in our new scheme that's ok. We need a powerful strong guy. I'd be willing to take a flyer on a guy like that if I didn't have to pay that much. I'm not going to pay a ton because he's been hurt too much.

Then I take a look at some other names. Gosder Cherilus [Tampa Bay LT] . He came in with my draft class. He's old (32). I'm not too intrigued by him.

Andre Smith. OK. I'd look at that one, but he's probably going to make some serious money. I don't think we could afford to have a very highly paid RT.

Mike Rimmer. Denver fans should know that name well. Von Miller terrorized him in the Super Bowl. Byron Bell. It goes on and on.

But, the point is that there are only 1 or 2 names at the RT spot that even intrigue me."

Stokely: "Yeah, there's not a lot out there."

Tyler Polumbus: "Then I go down the rest of them at LT and it's even worse! You've got Andrew Whitworth who's going on age 36. OK, let him ride it out in Cincinnati. Matt Kalil [Vikings] Riley Reif [Lions], William Beatty [Giants]. You know, there's just not much. There's basically nothing. So, I think Russell's going to be back. I think you maybe find a RT in FA or the draft.

Then you start talking about the guards, and I'm telling you right now that Max Garcia has a chance to excel in this new scheme. Michael Schofield, I thought it was interesting they started rotating him at the end of the year, because I thought he played fine football as a G. He played fine football."

Stokely: "I'm with you."

Tyler Polumbus: "He looked OK at G. He certainly wasn't an Achilles Heel where I have to get rid of him. If I could upgrade anybody, I don't care who the name is, I'd upgrade if someone's available. But, I'm not going out of my way to do it."

Then I'm telling you at C, that's locked up. Matt Paradis isn't going anywhere."

Stokely: "Well, you hope that's locked up. But, he's having two hip surgeries, so your best lineman is having two hip surgeries. So, how is he going to play next year?

Tyler Polumbus: "Yeah."

Stokely: "Because he has been your best and most consistent lineman."

Polumbus: "That's a big deal. Having two hip surgeries in one off season is a big deal."

Stokely: "Yes. I've never had hip surgery. But, I can imagine that having two of them in one off season is going to be tough to bounce back from and play at a high level.

So, that's going to be a question mark to follow during this off season to see how he's responding to those two hip surgeries."

Polumbus: "So, my prediction is that you're going to see many of the same faces. And those guys are going to have a lot of opportunity to play better in a power scheme. And Denver Broncos fans, I know a lot of them are wanting a bunch of new names, but I'm telling you it's not going to happen. That's just not how it's going to work. You might have one or two new starters."

Stokely: "Yeah, and this is where your personnel department has to do a great job of finding a guy late in the draft who can come in and help you out, if not this year, then in two years. Or you find that FA who was either hurt last year or was overlooked, and he will fit perfectly in this system. And you're not going to overpay that guy, you're going to underpay, maybe a 1 year deal "prove it" deal with a veteran who's been banged up. You've gotta find that guy to help your OL out."

Polumbus: "Right."

There you go Joel. There's your "source." They are saying everything I've been saying on these boards, just with a lot more expertise. That's where I got it. I didn't pull this stuff out of my butt. It's exactly what all the experts are saying. I don't make up ANYTHING. NOTHING is coming from my "opinion." :coffee:

So, when I say something innocuous like "the majority of the OL will be back next year" you can all stop saying that I'm coming up with crazy stupid stuff out of my own head, and I'm some kind of idiot who makes this stuff up without sources.

Hawgdriver
01-26-2017, 06:41 PM
Cool story, bro.

Actually, Cugs...this is a legit thread if you weren't so darn angry. We need a thread to discuss the reality of the 2017 OL. One thing that intrigues me is that Tyler seems sure it's going to be a power scheme. Which players of the existing linemen (let's leave Stephenson in the mix, too) are zone / power / either? Why are we sure McCoy will run a power scheme? I've heard from radio heads this feeling of certainty that McCoy's offense is a known entity, but we also hear that McCoy designs a scheme to his players (Lynch). Thoughts?

Cugel
01-26-2017, 06:49 PM
Cool story, bro.

Actually, Cugs...this is a legit thread if you weren't so darn angry. We need a thread to discuss the reality of the 2017 OL. One thing that intrigues me is that Tyler seems sure it's going to be a power scheme. Which players of the existing linemen (let's leave Stephenson in the mix, too) are zone / power / either? Why are we sure McCoy will run a power scheme? I've heard from radio heads this feeling of certainty that McCoy's offense is a known entity, but we also hear that McCoy designs a scheme to his players (Lynch). Thoughts?

Angry? I'm not angry. What gave you that idea. I'm just tired of people accusing me of making stuff up, when I'm just quoting various experts.

Now, Polumbus admits that he considers the Broncos OL to be his friends, so he's perhaps painting a rosy picture of their future prospects that isn't warranted. I could see Elway and Joseph getting rid of any of these guys - IF they could find someone better.

But, my main point (which I totally stole from guys like Polumbus and Cecil Lammey) is that it's going to be hard for the Broncos to go out in FA and find better players. There are few talented OL and the draft is a poor one for OL. The obvious consequence is that lots of these guys will be back, because they can't be replaced yet.

That doesn't mean Elway won't look to get rid of more of them next off season if they don't play better. But, it probably (notice "probably") means that most of the OL will be the same guys this year as last.

Cugel
01-26-2017, 06:51 PM
BTW: Mark Schlereth keeps insisting that all NFL teams run both ZBS concepts and power schemes, it's just a difference of emphasis for each team - which plays do you use the most? So, I don't think it's a complete shift to a new scheme. But, with a new OC inevitably there will be a new plays emphasized.

Hawgdriver
01-26-2017, 06:57 PM
Tyler names names. So we have a list of FA possibilities. Why is Mack a no? Here's his list.

Sebastian Bolmer
Gosder Cherilus
Andre Smith
Mike Rimmer
Byron Bell
Andrew Whitworth
Matt Kalil
Riley Reif
William Beatty

You add this list, our roster, and draft...that's our 2017 line. What's the best configuration for Lynch?

spikerman
01-26-2017, 08:07 PM
Is Sebastian Bolmer remotely related to Sebastian Vollmer? Asking for a friend.

Hawgdriver
01-26-2017, 08:10 PM
Lol...I copy pasted cugs. Prolly 104.3s speech to text system.

Timmy!
01-26-2017, 08:16 PM
Tyler Polumbus, the know all authority on all pro OL play. :lol:

Hawgdriver
01-26-2017, 08:18 PM
Tyler Polumbus, the know all authority on all pro OL play. :lol:

Tyler's comments on the OL situation are reasonable.

Joel
01-26-2017, 10:52 PM
Tyler Polumbus, the know all authority on all pro OL play. :lol:
That's a good point itself, but this isn't a view of our lines performance through the lens of personnel decisions, it's a view of personnel decisions through the lens of their performance. It's Polumbus explaining how he's managed to maintain an NFL career despite a level of performance no one ever mistook for Stokleys. That's fine as far as it goes, but he's never been in the room where coaches and GMs made those decisions about his future: They just notified him of the outcome later.

If Vollmer's healthy but a casualty of The Cheatriot Way, I'd be all OVER that in a heartbeat—especially at the rate NE* has paid him: His ENTIRE CONTRACT isn't much more than we're scheduled to pay Okung for JUST NEXT YEAR. That's a personnel decision Polumbus has never been involved in, because he's never been worth $12M/yr (probably not even the $4M/yr Vollmer's getting now.)

The biggest argument for keeping our current linemen is the importance of chemistry and continuity within the unit as a whole. Howver, that's largely negated by the very thing Polumbus et al. cite as a reason to keep them: A new system that plays better to their supposed strengths. Maybe it will and maybe it won't, but there's no argument to keep anyone because they know the system and coaches who also know them.

The biggest argument to EXPECT we'll keep our current line is that even when it was a league laughingstock getting turning our aging HoF QB into Romo in the middle of SUPER BOWL RUNS Elway treated it as a quick-fix patch job. He's not about to go out and drop $40M/yr on a bunch of All Pro FAs even if he COULD (and those pointing out that he can't do that across the board do have a point.) He's not about to spend a 1st round pick: Never has, never will.

Sorry, Cugel, but even a former Broncos OFFENSIVE linemen is only a marginally better source than a former Broncos defensive linemen: Neither is privy to Dove Valley discussions and neither has been present during any such discussions elsewhere. "That's entertainment!"

Joel
01-26-2017, 10:58 PM
Angry? I'm not angry. What gave you that idea. I'm just tired of people accusing me of making stuff up, when I'm just quoting various experts.
No one's accusing YOU of making stuff up, only pointed out that the people you're quoting are NOT "experts" and that several of them DO make up stuff for a living. No one in a position to know what's ACTUALLY going on will tip their hand, because that would prejudice their negotiations with other teams and players.

Meanwhile, we live in the age of infotainment and "reality" television (and talk radio was far ahead of that curve.) That's created a renaissance for all stripes of yellow journalism, but "truth is the first casualty of war," which DEFINITELY includes ratings wars.

Timmy!
01-27-2017, 01:28 AM
Tyler's comments on the OL situation are reasonable.

I would agree. 1 or 2 new starters. However my point remains. Paradis actually having functional hips alone will help.

King87
01-27-2017, 03:31 AM
I would agree. 1 or 2 new starters. However my point remains. Paradis actually having functional hips alone will help.

Some of the guys were only average to slightly below average. If you had two new starters who are solid, a healthier Paradis, etc...well...maybe the line isn't butterdookie.

Timmy!
01-27-2017, 04:56 AM
Some of the guys were only average to slightly below average. If you had two new starters who are solid, a healthier Paradis, etc...well...maybe the line isn't butterdookie.

We can hope. Gimme top 15....that's not completely unrealistic.....right?

Joel
01-27-2017, 07:02 AM
Some of the guys were only average to slightly below average. If you had two new starters who are solid, a healthier Paradis, etc...well...maybe the line isn't butterdookie.
Taking that approach for half a decade is how we got into and then wallowed in this mess. Lynch/Siemian can't compensate for that like Manning in his prime: They need protection and run support to offset THEIR growing pains, or we can forget about either ever "developing" into more than scared error- and injury-prone rabbits.


We can hope. Gimme top 15....that's not completely unrealistic.....right?
As in next years line rankings, or our next draft pick? Neither's unrealistic, but the GM's gotta be willing to draft a starter higher than the mid-fifties (or, more often, mid-nineties.) So far he's shown no such inclination; just the opposite. He's all in on "a great QB and D is all a championship takes and the ONLY way to do it." If an offensive head coach couldn't get him to spend a 1st round pick on a crappy line in TWO seasons, a DEFENSIVE head coach probably won't either.

I hope I'm wrong, but I've been hoping that pretty much since Elway returned, and that hope's been dashed six seasons running. :(

sneakers
01-27-2017, 07:21 AM
Making an offensive line involves just as much alchemy as it does evaluating talent. Who knows what is going to come out once you mix all the ingredients?

Joel
01-27-2017, 08:45 AM
Making an offensive line involves just as much alchemy as it does evaluating talent. Who knows what is going to come out once you mix all the ingredients?
That's a fair and valid point, but the phrase invites the obvious analogy: It's time to stop trying to turn lead into gold and get the real thing. ;)

Cugel
01-27-2017, 10:33 AM
Is Sebastian Bolmer remotely related to Sebastian Vollmer? Asking for a friend.

True Confessions: I had no idea Sebastian Vollmer's name. So? I had to listen to the podcast and then type it out word for word. I'm not an expert on every offensive lineman in the league. I don't know who most of those guys are. RTs?

Buff
01-27-2017, 10:44 AM
Cugel's posts are so much better when he cites experts.

I thought this was a nice realistic summary of where we're at.

LT - Okung likely our 2017 starter but we have to re-work his contract and he might not want to do that having played on a discount in 2016.
LG - Max Garcia showed a lot of promise in 2015 and then regressed this year, but maybe he is a better fit in the new scheme.
C - Paradis is really the only sure bet to return as starter - but he's having 2 offseason hip surgeries and we better have a backup plan in place.
RG - Schofield is serviceable and cheap - probably returning, maybe McGovern competes for a spot here.
RT - Stephenson is probably gone. And with question marks around Okung - tackle is probably our biggest need on the entire team.

Cugel
01-27-2017, 11:14 AM
That's a fair and valid point, but the phrase invites the obvious analogy: It's time to stop trying to turn lead into gold and get the real thing. ;)

I think Tyler Polumbus's point is that it's not easy to FIND Gold. Probably not one team in the NFL has elite talent at all 5 spots on the OL.

OL is like running a team of sled dogs in the Iditarod race. To pull the sled all 5 have to pull in the same direction at the same time and at the same speed. But, the Broncos OL is like a bunch of bobcats. Cats all want to go in their own direction. One cat wants to go left, one wants to go right, and one is just taking a cat-nap and letting the other cats pull him along (I'm looking at you Donald Stepheson!). Naturally the sled doesn't go anywhere.

At best that sled can only go as fast as the slowest dog. Watching a documentary on sled dog teams one is struck with the idea that it takes time to assemble a team, and team chemistry and continuity matter. The winning teams have dogs that have run that race before and are used to working with each other.

Sounds a bit like the NFL.

The rules:

1. An OL can't really learn to play together well in 1 season. It takes time to learn exactly how that guy next to you is going to play and what he's going to do.

2. No team has all elite or even all superior athletic linemen. More important is to get a bunch of adequate guys and then coach them up and get the line all pulling together.

3. The conclusion from this is that changing four out of five OL every year has simply not worked. The line has gotten worse and not better. Look at the turnover:

2013 Starting OL:
LT: Chris Clark (Ryan Clady went on IR after signing a big contract)
LG: Zane Beadles
C: Manny Ramirez
RG: Louis Vasquez
RT: Orlando Franklin

2014:
LT: Ryan Clady (who did not have a great year)
LG: Orlando Franklin
C : Will Montgomery
RG: Manny Ramirez
RT: Louis Vasquez

Other than Clady all those guys were out of their natural position.

2015:
LT: Ryan Harris (Ryan Clady went on IR again)
LG: Evan Mathis
C: Matt Paradis
RG: Louis Vasquez
RT: Michael Schofield

Notice some of the same names, but they were switched around.

2016:
LT: Russell Okung
LG: Max Garcia
C: Matt Paradis
RG: Michael Schofield
RT: Donald Stephenson

No continuity from season to season, non cohesion, no performance. They moved all the pieces around the chessboard, but there was no improvement, rather a regression. Everybody is always learning to play together, everyone is at a new position or is new to the team, except Paradis.

Who was their best player? Paradis. That's not a coincidence.

As much as fans want instant improvement "blow it all up and get some really GOOOD players!!!!" that just doesn't work."

And Elway is not going out in FA and signing a couple of $12M a year guys who will play marginally better than the guys he's got.

Cugel
01-27-2017, 11:18 AM
Tyler Polumbus is right. Unless you're going out and trading for an elite LT like Joe Thomas the improvement in the short term is just not going to be that noticeable.

And the Broncos blew their chance to trade for Joe Thomas 2 years ago, when Elway nearly did the deal for a 2nd round draft pick (the Browns wanted Von's backup LB Shaquil Barrett but Elway said no and Cleveland countered with a demand for a 2nd round pick). I thought at the time that Elway was throwing away his chance to win a SB with Peyton Manning.

Well, fortunately that turned out not to be true, but they still blew it by not getting Joe Thomas. They guy has never missed a snap in his career. Not one.


The 106th loss of Joe Thomas' NFL career was, predictably, melancholic. It came on an unseasonably warm November day in Cleveland, in a stadium overrun by acres of silver-and-blue Dallas Cowboys gear. A woman in Browns apparel fell asleep in her seat. There was a fight on the field at the beginning and a spirited first-quarter Cleveland drive, but inevitably, cold reality settled in like winters on Lake Erie.

Did anyone notice what Thomas did? Down there in that mess, he played his 9,500th straight snap. He's never sat out one single play, according to the Browns. It's a stunning stat, especially when you consider that Thomas, arguably the NFL's best left tackle, has spent his entire career in Cleveland, a place in which there is generally nothing to play for by December. The things Thomas has seen in 10 seasons would make your chinstrap curl: Johnny Manziel's off-the-wagon spiral, the Rob Chudzinski experiment (all 12 months of it), the winter wearing-of-the-paper-bags ritual. Through it all, the one true thing that has endured is Thomas, whose streak (now at 9,684) has survived six head coaches and 18 starting quarterbacks.

It doesn't seem fair. Thomas has been named to nine Pro Bowls, and likely will get to the Hall of Fame someday, but he can't get a whiff of the playoffs.

The closest he came was last season. The trade deadline approached in early November, and Denver was interested. But the deal fell through -- his agent, Peter Schaffer, says the negotiations "ran out of time" -- and the Broncos won a Super Bowl and Thomas wound up at home, saddled with the anxiety of another coaching change, a new front office and a whole batch of new teammates.

"He's given a lot of himself, physically, emotionally and spiritually to that team and organization," former teammate Scott Fujita said. "I'd be lying if I didn't say that when I hear trade rumors about Joe, sometimes I hope they're true."

But Thomas isn't going anywhere. He believes, even in these difficult days, that Cleveland is exactly where he needs to be.
video
Joe Thomas knows the pain of losing

Joe Thomas excels for the Cleveland Browns, but how long will he stick around to start winning? Senior writer Liz Merrill offers insight.Andrew Hetherington for ESPN

There is something romantic, or maybe maniacal, about a man who comes to work every day, pours his heart and soul into preparing for a game and does so well that he grades off the charts, but loses that game nearly every week and still comes back every Monday for more.

In Greek mythology, a guy named Sisyphus was punished by being forced to roll a gigantic boulder up a hill, only to have it roll back repeatedly, for eternity. That's Joe Thomas, seemingly. But Thomas didn't do anything wrong to warrant his boulder.

He is so genuine, so real, that when he sits at his locker and explains why he's glad that he wasn't traded, why he wants to be in Cleveland, you wind up believing him, even though he's about to get crushed again.

"I'm a Clevelander," he says. "I've spent the majority of my adult life here. Every day when I come to work, it's 'Let's turn this team into a consistent winner.' Because it would be such a special story. It would be like when the Cubs won the World Series. Everybody in the country has probably been cheering for them for so long because they've been suffering for so long. And you want to cheer for teams like the Browns.

"It's a blue-collar city, and for a blue-collar guy like myself, it's easy to fall in love with the people and kind of the chip on the shoulder that a lot of people have because they feel like they've been slighted for so long. It's so important for me to be here for the turnaround. I don't want to just get a Super Bowl ring [by] being traded to a dream team. It would feel unsatisfying. Unfulfilling."

Sadly for him, the reason the Browns lose every year is that their top management, starting with the OWNER has created and maintained a LOSING culture. And that's not going to change.

Cugel
01-27-2017, 11:23 AM
Cugel's posts are so much better when he cites experts.

I thought this was a nice realistic summary of where we're at.

LT - Okung likely our 2017 starter but we have to re-work his contract and he might not want to do that having played on a discount in 2016.
LG - Max Garcia showed a lot of promise in 2015 and then regressed this year, but maybe he is a better fit in the new scheme.
C - Paradis is really the only sure bet to return as starter - but he's having 2 offseason hip surgeries and we better have a backup plan in place.
RG - Schofield is serviceable and cheap - probably returning, maybe McGovern competes for a spot here.
RT - Stephenson is probably gone. And with question marks around Okung - tackle is probably our biggest need on the entire team.

I always cite experts. Always.

I just don't have the time to spend 30 minutes looking up and typing out transcripts normally. I wanted to show everybody on these boards who have criticized me for making stuff up that virtually NOTHING that I post is just MY opinion.

You know, you guys could go to 104.3 The Fan Podcasts and listen to this stuff yourselves, and you'd all hear the same things I do. There's a ton of information, and the off season is the time when you can learn the most.

During the season most commentary is about the Broncos chances in the next game, getting home field advantage, etc. During the off-season, it's all about what FAs they are going to get, how to improve the OL, should the Broncos trade for a veteran QB or try and develop Siemian and Lynch, etc. It's much more informative. I've learned a lot just listening to these experts while I'm driving or making lunch, etc. I just download a pod-cast, an listen on my phone when I have a spare moment for fun.

It's kind of relaxing in a way. And it becomes like a refuge, where you can get away from the stresses of the day, politics and the horrible things that are happening in the world these days.

Buff
01-27-2017, 11:30 AM
I always cite experts. Always.

I just don't have the time to spend 30 minutes looking up and typing out transcripts normally. I wanted to show everybody on these boards who have criticized me for making stuff up that virtually NOTHING that I post is just MY opinion.

You know, you guys could go to 104.3 The Fan Podcasts and listen to this stuff yourselves, and you'd all hear the same things I do. There's a ton of information, and the off season is the time when you can learn the most.

During the season most commentary is about the Broncos chances in the next game, getting home field advantage, etc. During the off-season, it's all about what FAs they are going to get, how to improve the OL, should the Broncos trade for a veteran QB or try and develop Siemian and Lynch, etc. It's much more informative.

I often try to give you credit for aggregating lots of info into a cohesive narrative. They are mostly fun to read.

Where I give you a hard time is when you make large logical leaps and then pass them off as air tight facts. Like the idea that Paxton Lynch drove a wedge between Elway and Kubiak... I just don't see that - I see a rookie who wasn't ready for primetime and a journeyman who outperformed him.

Cugel
01-27-2017, 11:42 AM
I often try to give you credit for aggregating lots of info into a cohesive narrative. They are mostly fun to read.

Where I give you a hard time is when you make large logical leaps and then pass them off as air tight facts. Like the idea that Paxton Lynch drove a wedge between Elway and Kubiak... I just don't see that - I see a rookie who wasn't ready for primetime and a journeyman who outperformed him.

Paxton Lynch drove a wedge between Elway and Kubiak????

How did that happen? I really don't know what you're talking about.

Elway wanted to develop Lynch, and Kubiak is focused on winning the next game. (he's the coach, so duh)

And Siemian wasn't a raw rookie, so he was the better player. They brought in Butt-fumbler to start but he sucked so bad he lost his starting job to a 7th round draft pick who had never started a game in the NFL.

There were disagreements within Dove Valley. But, in no way, shape of form, did John Elway want Kubiak to retire. He wanted to fire some offensive coaches and hire Mike McCoy to come in and be the offensive Coordinator, and let McCoy call the offense. That would have cut into Kubiak's role on the team and he couldn't go along with it.

That's a professional disagreement, and it really didn't have much to do with Lynch. Mostly, Kubiak felt that if anybody should be blamed for the state of the offense, it should be him under a "the buck stops here" philosophy.

Well, that's admirable, but it's not how things work in the NFL. Assistant coaches who fail need to be replaced just like players who fail do (I'm looking at you Donald Stephenson). Only Kubiak is too loyal to his friends and the guys he brought in with him. Most head coaches are only too happy to keep their jobs by throwing an assistant or two under the bus.

But, the two are still close friends. When Kubiak decided to retire he called Elway and asked if he could schedule a time to come over and talk with him, not as a boss but as a friend. Elway cleared his schedule and met Kubiak right then. They talked it over and Kubiak decided to leave at the end of the season.

You will never hear Elway or Kubiak trash talking each other. Rick Dennison and some of his assistant coaches might do that on the way out of town, but Kubiak, never. (It's useful when they do trash talk because otherwise we never learn the inside story of what was really going on, and why less than 1 year after Denver won the SB we have virtually an entirely new coaching staff.

Jaded
01-28-2017, 12:50 AM
Polumbus keeps saying that Drnver can't scrap it all and bring in 5 new starters...he's wrong.

King87
01-28-2017, 12:53 AM
Polumbus keeps saying that Drnver can't scrap it all and bring in 5 new starters...he's wrong.

There are some offensive lineman out there in FA that are pretty good.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-28-2017, 12:58 AM
There are some offensive lineman out there in FA that are pretty good.

Did you look at the list in the beginning of the thread?

Jaded
01-28-2017, 12:59 AM
There are some offensive lineman out there in FA that are pretty good.

I believe that too but my point is this; cut all ****ing five starting Broncos OL...ALL of them, big ****ing deal! They were so bad that there isn't a single one you'd miss.

King87
01-28-2017, 01:00 AM
I believe that too but my point is this; cut all ****ing five starting Broncos OL...ALL of them, big ****ing deal! They were so bad that there isn't a single one you'd miss.

Paradis was exceptional!

Jaded
01-28-2017, 01:02 AM
LT Kalil
LG Joekel
C McGovern or Day
RG Leary
RT Rookie

Cut them all and this line couldn't possibly be any worse.

Polumbus is wrong.

Jaded
01-28-2017, 01:03 AM
Paradis was exceptional!

So I'm told.

King87
01-28-2017, 01:06 AM
So I'm told.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jaded
01-28-2017, 01:15 AM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love potatoes.

elsid13
01-28-2017, 07:44 AM
BTW: Mark Schlereth keeps insisting that all NFL teams run both ZBS concepts and power schemes, it's just a difference of emphasis for each team - which plays do you use the most? So, I don't think it's a complete shift to a new scheme. But, with a new OC inevitably there will be a new plays emphasized.

He's right, in today modern NFL everything is hybrid/mish-mash of concepts. Even under Kubiak you saw some power runs and pulls, etc.

Joel
01-28-2017, 09:39 AM
I think Tyler Polumbus's point is that it's not easy to FIND Gold. Probably not one team in the NFL has elite talent at all 5 spots on the OL.
"It's even harder if you're stupid." My grandfathers standard response when someone told him "but I don't know HOW" was "Well, you ain't gonna learn no younger."

I'm really sick of drafting "starting" OTs in the 3rd, "starting" Gs in the 5th and finishing it out with whoever we can find for <$2M/yr, then hearing the old "see, Elway DID prioritize the line... it's just really hard and stuff; anyway, it's all Kubiak and Dennisons fault: They handpicked those 3rd round OTs!" Kubiak's no line coach, but he's a good enough offensive coach I strongly doubt ANY 3rd round OT or 5th round G has EVER been at the top of "his" draft board.

Cugel
01-28-2017, 11:29 AM
"It's even harder if you're stupid." My grandfathers standard response when someone told him "but I don't know HOW" was "Well, you ain't gonna learn no younger."

I'm really sick of drafting "starting" OTs in the 3rd, "starting" Gs in the 5th and finishing it out with whoever we can find for <$2M/yr, then hearing the old "see, Elway DID prioritize the line... it's just really hard and stuff; anyway, it's all Kubiak and Dennisons fault: They handpicked those 3rd round OTs!" Kubiak's no line coach, but he's a good enough offensive coach I strongly doubt ANY 3rd round OT or 5th round G has EVER been at the top of "his" draft board.

Well get used to being unhappy, because it's not going to change. Elway modelled this team after the Seahawks after the Legion of Boom dismantled Peyton's record setting offense in the SB.

Seattle Model:

1. Pay Russell Wilson $700k ave for 3 years, saving $60M in cap space.
2. Use the money to re-sign all the key defenders to long term contracts making sure Richard Sherman, Michael Bennett, et. al don't get away in FA.
3. Trim expenses on offense to make the cap work.

The Seahawks got rid of Pro-Bowl C Max Unger (traded to the Saints for Jimmy Graham) when he wanted to get paid. They let Russell Okung play out his contract and walk even though his OL coach wanted to keep him. Etc. The Seahawks spend their big money on defense.

Elway has done all this and won a SB with defense. He made Peyton take a $5M pay cut and used his cap money to re-sign D.T., Sanders, Aqib Talib, Chris Harris & Von Miller to long term deals. Now he's paying Siemian and Lynch combined less than $4M. And Lynch was a first round pick, so Elway can get him to play 4 years on his rookie deal and have a 5th year option in which to get a new deal done - if he wants to. He's not paying significant money to either QB - by design.

That's one reason why NFL expert Adam Schefter says he doesn't see any signs that the Broncos have any interest in trading for a veteran QB or picking up one in FA. He usually knows what's going on in the NFL.

Now he says he wants to strengthen the offense without losing any of his defensive talent. That means he needs to find cost effective solutions to his offensive problems. It does not mean blowing up the offense and starting over like Jaded would like!

Thus he's not going out in FA and signing 5 new OL starters and going from scratch. At a minimum three starters from 2016 will be back and starting in similar roles in 2017. Possibly 4, just like Polumbus, and Stokely, and Cecil Lammey and Alfred Williams and Mark Schlereth have been saying all along.

That probably means get used to seeing Russell Okung at LT (if they can re-sign him to a more reasonable contract).

That means get used to seeing Michael Schofield around. He's probably not going anywhere either. He's too cheap and has played better inside than he did at T.

That means the Broncos will probably keep Max Garcia at G.

And of course, that means keeping and re-signing Paradis to a long term deal. They are not letting their best OL walk in FA.

They could add a TE in FA. They will add an OL or 2 in the draft, but probably not in the first round and almost definitely not to start in 2017.

All in all, it amounts to exactly what Vance Joseph said upon assuming the Broncos job: a retooling, not a rebuilding.

Jaded
01-28-2017, 12:09 PM
Interesting that Polumbus also said that the only OC Kubiak ever conceded playcalling duties to was Kyle Shanahan, I'm interested to see how Dennison does in Buffalo now that's it's finally his show. Especially considering the Bills have zero "fits the system" OL at the moment. (Especially Cordy Glenn, they should trade him...to Denver)

I actually think he does well, I'm ready to be proven wrong.

Edit: btw, in true CU Buff/Big Al fashion this somewhat contradicts what Polumbus was saying about playcalling duties during the season.

Joel
01-28-2017, 01:00 PM
There's no "cost effective" way to improve on the dregs blocking for us: Cheaping out is WHY they've been so bad so long. If Elway tries that, Lynchs career will look a lot more like Lucks than Wilsons (who's not doing well either since Seattle dumped all his blockers for "skill" players who've done no better for the same reason.)

Not that I'm saying Elway won't do it, but don't expect Okung back: He's only here because he wrote himself a "prove it" deal that let Elway have a former Pro Bowler for a $5M cap hit this year, but that price tag DOUBLES the next two years if we exercise our 4-year option by early March. That's not going to happen, and Okung's probably not going to keep playing for $5M/yr (though after the season he had, he might not find a better offer.)

Cugel
01-28-2017, 02:42 PM
There's no "cost effective" way to improve on the dregs blocking for us: Cheaping out is WHY they've been so bad so long. If Elway tries that, Lynchs career will look a lot more like Lucks than Wilsons (who's not doing well either since Seattle dumped all his blockers for "skill" players who've done no better for the same reason.)

Not that I'm saying Elway won't do it, but don't expect Okung back: He's only here because he wrote himself a "prove it" deal that let Elway have a former Pro Bowler for a $5M cap hit this year, but that price tag DOUBLES the next two years if we exercise our 4-year option by early March. That's not going to happen, and Okung's probably not going to keep playing for $5M/yr (though after the season he had, he might not find a better offer.)

The only reason why Okung wouldn't be back in 2017 would be if he refused to renegotiate his deal. It's true nobody is going to give him $11M a year this year. But, he could easily get more than Denver wants to pay.

Elway obviously doesn't agree there's no "cost effective" way to rebuild the OL.

He plans on doing just that. Why else would he insist on bringing in Mike McCoy and a new coaching staff to handle the OL and coach up his young QBs?

He'd replace any of those OL - if he could find someone better for about the same money. But, we all know that he'll have enough trouble finding a replacement for Donald Stephenson without trying to find FOUR new OL starters through FA.

Much of the cap room the Broncos have right now will be eaten up by re-doing contracts for the players already on the roster they want to keep. Then he's going to try and find a TE - possibly through FA.

He needs a DT to replace Sylvester Williams who is a FA.

He needs to re-sign Vance Walker if they want to keep him, which presumably they do. He's only 29.

Then they need a new DE because they never managed to find a decent replacement for Malik Jackson.

He might try and find a RB or WR in FA as well, although those acquisitions shouldn't cost a mint.

And then throw in the fact that this is one of the worst OL drafts in decades. Really bad, unless the experts are mistaken with only 3 or 4 OL given a 1st round grade. And the best of them have flaws like inconsistency or injury issues. There's not one "can't miss" OL guy in the entire draft!

So, we can't expect any OL they draft to be more than a developmental guy. Maybe a 3rd or 4th or 5th rounder.

Kind of like the OL already on the roster.

This offensive line is not going to be vastly better this year, unless coaching can make it better. And yes, that could hurt the development of his young QBs. But, them's the breaks. Lots of teams are in this predicament, desperately needing much better OL and not finding them readily available.

We have to hope that the new OL coach can get something out of these guys that Clancey Barone didn't. And that's an encouraging thought, since Barone was obviously pretty bad. Not as bad as the Steeler's defensive coordinator, but pretty bad nonetheless.

Joel
01-28-2017, 04:06 PM
The only reason why Okung wouldn't be back in 2017 would be if he refused to renegotiate his deal. It's true nobody is going to give him $11M a year this year. But, he could easily get more than Denver wants to pay.
That's a given: Our going rate for starting OTs is $2M/yr.


Elway obviously doesn't agree there's no "cost effective" way to rebuild the OL.
Also a given, but the evidence (and his QBs and RBs injury history) doesn't agree with HIM.


He plans on doing just that. Why else would he insist on bringing in Mike McCoy and a new coaching staff to handle the OL and coach up his young QBs?
Fine; let's hope the SEVENTH tries the charm. If it's not, it's Josephs fault for hiring lousy offensive assistants: Surely any DECENT coach would be able turn 3rd round rookie OTs, 5th round rookie Gs and FAs NO ONE ELSE WANTS into Pro Bowlers within a year or two. ;)


He'd replace any of those OL - if he could find someone better for about the same money. But, we all know that he'll have enough trouble finding a replacement for Donald Stephenson without trying to find FOUR new OL starters through FA.
Didn't pretty much everyone grade Stephenson as the WORST starting OT this year? He's EASILY replaceable, but no, not "for about the same money," because no one but Elway thinks a starting NFL OTs market value is $2M/yr. But spending $20M/yr on a franchise QB to keep you competitive and HALF that on the FIVE guys who keep HIM upright is... shortsighted.



Much of the cap room the Broncos have right now will be eaten up by re-doing contracts for the players already on the roster they want to keep. Then he's going to try and find a TE - possibly through FA.
Except he's already locked in most pricey ones to long term deals over the past 2-3 years. Spotrac shows a total of 10 UFAs right now (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/denver-broncos/), and two are Ware and Sly; of those there's a good chance we keep, the biggest names are Vance Walker, Kayvon Webster and (maybe) Forsett. There's only 3 RFAs (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/rfa/denver-broncos/), (McManus, Davis and Brenner.) Then 9 ERFAs (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/erfa/denver-broncos/), and some key names (i.e. Paradis, Barrett and Fowler; Bibbs, Taylor and Ferentz if you like them,) but they're all a captive audience.


He needs a DT to replace Sylvester Williams who is a FA.
Yeah, with that gap and the coaching changes I'm kind of expecting a NT in the 1st if there are any legit starting prospects there, but


He needs to re-sign Vance Walker if they want to keep him, which presumably they do. He's only 29.
is a good insurance policy if he's healthy. I doubt a backup NT who could probably start at 3-4 DE will dent our $30+M cap, especially if Okung (and/or you know who) leave for $10M each.


Then they need a new DE because they never managed to find a decent replacement for Malik Jackson.
Nah, if Walker's healthy and re-signed that's his default spot. He was great filling in during Wolfes suspension the first 4 weeks of 2015, and frequently spelled both Wolfe and Jackson during the season: We never missed a beat. And Gotsis and Crick are fine to back him up while the former develops.


He might try and find a RB or WR in FA as well, although those acquisitions shouldn't cost a mint.
I doubt the ones he'd be looking at will, no. He's already got a legit #1 and #2 WR under contract for several years to come, and the only thing wrong with Fowler's that our line can't keep our QBs on their feet long enough to through any progressions. We just drafted a RB last year who looks good, and CJ's the starter. If we go after anyone there I'd expect it to be depth (especially if Elway wants to keep Sunshine.)


And then throw in the fact that this is one of the worst OL drafts in decades. Really bad, unless the experts are mistaken with only 3 or 4 OL given a 1st round grade. And the best of them have flaws like inconsistency or injury issues. There's not one "can't miss" OL guy in the entire draft!
I don't watch the SECAA, so can't speak to that. But I find it hard to believe there's NOTHING, and interior linemen (and 3-4 ILBs, which we also need) are valued low enough good ones often last to the 2nd or even 3rd round.


So, we can't expect any OL they draft to be more than a developmental guy. Maybe a 3rd or 4th or 5th rounder.

Kind of like the OL already on the roster.
Been there, done that. If we wait till the 3rd, I hope it's a G, because I'm really tired of starting the 9th or 11th rookie OT in a draft. That's NOT a low value position, but a premium one, because it keeps those sexy pass rushers from ending your sexy QBs season in September: The 9th or 11th best one left is NOT starter material.


This offensive line is not going to be vastly better this year, unless coaching can make it better. And yes, that could hurt the development of his young QBs. But, them's the breaks. Lots of teams are in this predicament, desperately needing much better OL and not finding them readily available.
Depends on how much was Dennison and how much Barone, but if Dennison couldn't make them studs, his former offensive line coach in Houston can't either. You can't make a bunch of 4th round ANYTHINGS into All Pros: NFL scouts aren't ALL that BAD at their job.


We have to hope that the new OL coach can get something out of these guys that Clancey Barone didn't. And that's an encouraging thought, since Barone was obviously pretty bad. Not as bad as the Steeler's defensive coordinator, but pretty bad nonetheless.
Well, we went from an offensive HC back to a defensive one, which I figure makes an awful line that was already a low priority an even LOWER one.

Yet IF we want to make some big moves, we DO have options and can do it. For all my criticisms of how Elway's consistently mishandled the line, he did do one BIG thing I wanted this year: He worked out extensions for next years most expensive and valuable UFAs (mainly Sanders and Stewart) BEFORE this offseason. It looks like he has the cap room to do it again if so inclined (the only big 2018 name is Ward if Simmons isn't ready, but there's also Green, Crick and Nelson; after that it's just Latimer and Schofield, neither of whom I'd expect anyone to miss, and Thompson's our lone 2018 RFA.)

Elway's doing a fantastic job of managing the cap, but if the objective's truly to win championships regularly, the best cap management in the world's useless unless the GM, um, "capitalizes" on it when he's banked a lot of space to USE.

NightTerror218
01-29-2017, 11:53 PM
Joel cheaping out is not what elway has done. He has drafted what 3 OL in 2nd and 3rd rounds. Went out and got okung. Problem is that they arw nit working. He has not gone cheap. I keep seeing people making mocks that grab OL in 2nd and 3rd rounds. Which is exactly what elway has done.

Jaded
01-30-2017, 01:07 AM
JFC! Looks like War and Peace threw up in here.

King87
01-30-2017, 01:36 AM
JFC! Looks like War and Peace threw up in here.

:lol:

Joel
01-30-2017, 02:26 AM
Year
Rnd


Pick
Pos
To
AP1
PB
St
CarAV
G
College/Univ


2016 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2016/draft.htm)
5
Connor McGovern (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McGoCo00.htm)
144
G

0
0
0


Missouri (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/missouri/)


Year
Rnd
Player
Pick
Pos
To
AP1
PB
St
CarAV
G
College/Univ


2015 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2015/draft.htm)
2
Ty Sambrailo (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SambTy00.htm)
59
T
2016
0
0
0
3
13
Colorado St. (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/coloradost/)


2015 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2015/draft.htm)
4
Max Garcia (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GarcMa00.htm)
133
C
2016
0
0
1
9
31
Florida (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/florida/)


Year
Rnd
Player
Pick
Pos
To
AP1
PB
St
CarAV
G
College/Univ


2014 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/draft.htm)
3
Michael Schofield (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SchoMi00.htm)
95
OL
2016
0
0
2
13
29
Michigan (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/michigan/)


2014 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/draft.htm)
6
Matt Paradis (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/ParaMa00.htm)
207
OL
2016
0
0
2
12
32
Boise St. (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/boisest/)


Year
Rnd
Player
Pick
Pos
To
AP1
PB
St
CarAV
G
College/Univ


2013 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/draft.htm)
6
Vinston Painter (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PainVi00.htm)
173
G
2016
0
0
0
0
8
Virginia Tech (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/virginiatech/)


Year
Rnd
Player
Pick
Pos
To
AP1
PB
St
CarAV
G
College/Univ


2012 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/draft.htm)
4
Philip Blake (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BlakPh00.htm)
108
OL
2012
0
0
0
0

Baylor (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/baylor/)


Year
Rnd
Player
Pick
Pos
To
AP1
PB
St
CarAV
G
College/Univ


2011 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/draft.htm)
2
Orlando Franklin (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FranOr00.htm)
46
T
2016
0
0
6
40
89
Miami (FL) (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/miami(fl)/)



Joel cheaping out is not what elway has done. He has drafted what 3 OL in 2nd and 3rd rounds.
In a word, no. Schofield was a 3rd rounder the year after we lost the SB: That is, a RB and 4 comp picks from being the top 4th round pick. The other two were Sambrailo and Franklin, 6 years apart: Two 2nd round picks in 6 years is cheaping out.

#46: That's the highest Elway has EVER drafted an offensive lineman, in SIX YEARS (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/draft.htm), and the BEST lineman he's drafted—coincidence...?


Went out and got okung.
He went after Okung for the same reason as Stephenson and Mathis: Because they were CHEAP, because no one (else) wanted them, because they were NO GOOD. The only FA linemen Elway competed for was Vasquez, who promptly rewarded him with an All Pro season—then got cut two years later because $6M/yr was too much even for an All Pro and Schofield can do "the same job" for <$¾M.

Except he doesn't REALLY do "the same job," does he? He just does A job CHEAPLY. ;)

Elway "went out and got" Okung because the former Pro Bowler and SB champion starter was willing to take a little over $5 and a promise to double it if he played lights out, but get NOTHING more if he didn't. He probably didn't have to ask Vasquez what that promise was worth, but it didn't matter: Because NO ONE ELSE MADE AN OFFER, and there's a reason. Same reason the 2015 Chiefs' starting RT came to us for $4M NO ONE ELSE OFFERED.


Problem is that they arw nit working. He has not gone cheap. I keep seeing people making mocks that grab OL in 2nd and 3rd rounds. Which is exactly what elway has done.
See, this is the problem with people saying, "OL," as if they're monolithic and interchangeable: The middle of the 2nd or even 3rd round's not a bad place to draft a GUARD. Elway's drafted a couple OTs in the 50s, where Atlanta, Oakland and Dallas all drafted great starting GUARDS: They drafted their TACKLES in the FIRST round. Because edge rushers are far more valuable than interior defensive linemen, so edge blockers are far more valuable than interior offensive linemen.

Not that I agree that necessarily reflects their respective WORTH; it completely glosses over interior offensive and defensive linemens critical importance to running.

Anyway, yeah, Elway has DEFINITELY gone cheap, and that's WHY none of them are working. They're doing the best they can... such as that is.

Cugel's right about one thing though: I don't expect it to ever change. I hear a lot of people saying we'll renegotiate with Okung because he wasn't horrible, but will take a $2M cap hit for cutting Stephenson because he graded out pretty much 32nd out of 32: I hope no one's surprised if we do just the opposite. Elway will make Okung a "take or leave it" offer, but probably can't get anything better than Stephenson for less money.

Joel
01-30-2017, 02:27 AM
Put it this way: I see people here talking about Whitworth and Kalil, but I expect Minny (at least) to find a way to keep a good experienced OT in his prime, and doubt Elway would get into a bidding war over him—but Sebastian Vollmers expiring contract paid a fraction of what Okung made this year, plus he's been hurt much of the last two years. I can definitely see Belicheat doing him like Mankins and Elway picking him up like Okung; if he's (finally) healthy, it'd be a steal.

Freyaka
01-30-2017, 10:25 AM
Joel, did you ever think that maybe....Just maybe, those o-linemen could have actually been worth something with proper coaching? No of course you didn't think that because your entire motive is to just blame Elway for everything.

Elway has put the effort in. Other players drafted in similar spots have payed off for other teams... The problem is, our o-line coach, that Kubiak decided to retain, can't coach his way out of a paper bag and has no business being an o-line coach in the NFL... But sure, keep blaming Elway.

Joel
01-30-2017, 11:05 AM
Did I ever think the NINTH OT drafted in 2015 could be "coached up" to greatness, or even competence, or the ELEVENTH OT drafted in 2014? No, and neither did ANY of the 32 NFL GMs who REPEATEDLY rejected them in favor of far better players.

Sure, our offensive line coach—whom ELWAY decided to retain when he fired McDumbass AND when he fired Fox—sucks; that's why he went back and forth from coaching Broncos TEs who "can't block the sun out of their eyes" to similar linemen for SIX YEARS. No promotion's, no poaching by other teams who liked his "accomplishments" and outbid us, just lateral moves within the same organization. That's still not the fault of the guy who's only been head coach TWO years.

Realistically though, point to some of those #55ish or #90ish OTs who've "paid off" for other teams. There are a few, but a VERY few; it's a premium position in high demand, so any team that consistently waits to the ass end of the 3rd round to draft one will find very few of starting quality, let alone dominant ones. If your QB was utter garbage, would you wait till the 3rd to draft one? Or a #1 WR? Or to find your best pass rusher?

NO, because all those guys are long gone by then: There are two few good ones and too many teams in desperate need of them.

Let's not pretend waiting till the middle of the draft to find starting OTs, the end of the draft to find starting Gs, and waiting till the end of training camp to offer bargain basement contracts to FAs NO ONE ELSE WANTS is "putting in the effort." Had Elway put in that kind of effort as a player he wouldn't have made it through his first camp, let alone started in 5 SBs and won the last two.

Elway's done many great things as GM, but repeatedly dropped the ball on our line even after it cost us a SB blowout, became the NFLs laughing stock and forced Manning to play badly hurt the last half of his final two seasons. Maybe even HE thought Dennison could wave a magic wand and fix it, but let's also not pretend Barone was "Kubiaks" guy: Barone only became our OL coach the first time because Dennison left for Houston after McDumbass demoted him from OC to OL coach.

So the guy who replaced Dennison as our OC before has done so again, but that guys OL coach has been replaced by the one Dennison had in Houston (i.e. someone who actually WAS one of Kubiak and Dennisons guys and probably would've replaced Barone two years ago had it been solely their call.) We'll see what happens.

Regardless, don't expect improvement if we keep drafting "starting" OTs in the mid-50s, "starting" Gs in the mid-100s and filling out the rest with whatever FAs remain unsigned and cheap in August. And if we DO continue that, I don't want to hear about Elway "putting in the effort" by MERELY GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS.

Freyaka
01-30-2017, 12:12 PM
Since you seem to think success can only be found in the first couple rounds, here's a good read you'll likely disregard...

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/24/nfl-draft-combine-offensive-tackles-history

As for this gem...


Realistically though, point to some of those #55ish or #90ish OTs who've "paid off" for other teams. There are a few, but a VERY few; it's a premium position in high demand, so any team that consistently waits to the ass end of the 3rd round to draft one will find very few of starting quality, let alone dominant ones. If your QB was utter garbage, would you wait till the 3rd to draft one? Or a #1 WR? Or to find your best pass rusher?

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-top-25-nfl-offensive-linemen-this-season/

#2 on that list is Matt Paradis, he was taken in the sixth round by Elway no less...Strike one
#3 on that list Kelechi Osemele taken 2nd round, pick #60 Strike two
#4 on the list Marshal Yanda round 3 pick #86 AND YOUUUUUR OUT!
#5 Andrew Whitworth 2nd round, pick 55
#6 David Bakhtari round 4 (round 4 man!!) Pick 109
#7 on that list Donald Penn he was undrafted...

I mean I can keep going if you would like, but I'm pretty sure that I've completely destroyed your argument... Not every pick is going to pan out, but when you've got a worthless coach that Kubiak kept in his coaching staff (Because regardless of if Elway kept him on, Kubiak picked his staff and could have tossed him out) You can't make players work like they should...

Freyaka
01-30-2017, 01:07 PM
Since I'm feeling especially helpful today, I'll go further.

The Raiders had the top line in football this year as far as giving up sacks.
LT Donald Penn (undrafted)
LG Kelechi Osemele (Pick #60)
C Rodney Hudson (Pick #55)
RG Gabe Jackson (Pick #81)
RT Menelik Watson (pick #42)

The Steelers were second
LT Alejandro Villanueva (Undrafted)
LG Ramon Foster (Undrafted)
C Maurkice Pouncy (Pick #18)
RG David DeCastro (pick 24)
RT Marcus Gilbert (Pick #63)

Giants were #3
LT Ereck Flowers (Pick #9)
LG Justin Pugh (pick #19)
C Weston Richburg (Pick #43)
RG John Jerry (Pick 73)
RT Bobby Hart (Pick #226)

Redskins were #4
LT Trent Williams (pick #4)
LG Shawn Lauvo (pick #92)
C Spencer Long (pick #78)
RG Brandon Scherff (pick #5)
RT Morgan Moses (Pick 66)

Again, I could keep going, but this perfectly demonstrates that there is no right or wrong when picking linemen. The starters on the top 4 teams are a mixture of high, low or undrafted. You can hit on a linemen anywhere in the draft with proper scouting and many teams do. I am positive I could keep going on down the list of teams and continue to demonstrate this, but if you haven't realized that your beliefs are not grounded in reality by this point in my post, no amount of me continuing is going to correct that.

The problem isn't the players we've picked (that is part of the issue possibly) the problem is that even if these players did potentially have the talent to make it as starters in the NFL, outside of Paradis, our o-line coach wasn't capable of properly coaching them up.

Hawgdriver
01-30-2017, 01:27 PM
PFF ranks (https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season/) all 32 offensive lines. Denver #24/32.

King87
01-30-2017, 05:26 PM
PFF ranks (https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season/) all 32 offensive lines. Denver #24/32.

Yep - they're bad, but not nearly as awful as a lot of people here think.

Freyaka
01-31-2017, 12:54 AM
Yep - they're bad, but not nearly as awful as a lot of people here think.

Some of them might even be capable of playing here ni the future if someone teaches them proper technique...

King87
01-31-2017, 03:13 AM
Some of them might even be capable of playing here ni the future if someone teaches them proper technique...

Careful, it's never on the coaches to coach up the players. The OL should be all first rounders or former first rounders who are awesome.

spikerman
01-31-2017, 06:34 AM
What's sad is that we're all pleasantly surprised that the line was ranked 24th.

Joel
01-31-2017, 06:40 AM
Since you seem to think success can only be found in the first couple rounds, here's a good read you'll likely disregard...

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/24/nfl-draft-combine-offensive-tackles-history

As for this gem...
Sure, "Wilson was a 3rd rounder, Brady a 6th and Romo UNDRAFTED!" So looking for a franchise QB in the 3rd or later would be "putting in the effort"...?

Because that's not where Elway sought ours. Kubiak coached up Siemian, but no one expected him to succeed Manning (and most still don't.)


https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-top-25-nfl-offensive-linemen-this-season/

#2 on that list is Matt Paradis, he was taken in the sixth round by Elway no less...Strike one
#3 on that list Kelechi Osemele taken 2nd round, pick #60 Strike two
#4 on the list Marshal Yanda round 3 pick #86 AND YOUUUUUR OUT!
#5 Andrew Whitworth 2nd round, pick 55
#6 David Bakhtari round 4 (round 4 man!!) Pick 109
#7 on that list Donald Penn he was undrafted...

I mean I can keep going if you would like, but I'm pretty sure that I've completely destroyed your argument... Not every pick is going to pan out, but when you've got a worthless coach that Kubiak kept in his coaching staff (Because regardless of if Elway kept him on, Kubiak picked his staff and could have tossed him out) You can't make players work like they should...
HALF those guys AREN'T TACKLES. I already repeatedly said top GUARDS often last til the 3rd, but Elways pair of 2nds and a LATE 3rd were TACKLES: Schofield and Sambrailo just got moved to G as the default "solution" for failed starting OTs (apparently pulling out to lead block downfield no longer requires quickness or agility.)

For the rest: Whitworth was the FIFTH (i.e. not NINTH nor ELEVENTH) OT taken in a draft where D'Brickashaw Ferguson went #4 but NO ONE ELSE til the 2nd. #8-10 are interior linemen but STILL ALL 1st rounders (one drafted as an OT,) and the next OT is Joe Thomas: #3 overall. Let's look at that lists top ten TACKLES:

#1 Andrew Whitworth (2nd, #55, 5th OT drafted)
#2 David Bakhtiari (4th, #109, 9th OT drafted)
#3 Donald Penn (UDFA)
#4 Joe Thomas (1st, #3, 1st OT drafted)
#5 Tyron Smith (1st, #9, 1st OT drafted)
#6 Jack Conklin (1st, #8, 2nd OT drafted)
#7 Taylor Lewan (1st, #11, 3rd OT drafted)
#8 Zach Strief (7th, #210, 22nd OT drafted)
#9 Bryan Bulaga (1st, #23, 4th OT drafted)

...and there aren't even 10 OTs on that list: Apparently only 9/25 top NFL linemen are OTs, raising the question of whether OTs aren't SLIGHTLY overvalued by comparison. To be fair, a lot of the other 17 were drafted as OTs, sucked there and got moved to G. #10 Justin Pugh was a 1st round OT in the same draft as Bakhtiari, but made the list as a G; OTs were all but ONE of that drafts top FOUR picks, but #2 overall pick Luke Joeckel is a starting G in Jax.

Also, there's reason to doubt the validity of any list that declares Joe Thomas only the NFLs 4th best OT (probably by ignoring his run blocking.) Pro Football FOCUS is an ironic name for such a hit and miss publication: Some articles are compellingly well researched and supported—but at least as many read like a BF poster pushing a personal agenda with no more than a few stats cherry-picked because they happen to "support" a preconception (i.e. stat artifacts rather than TRENDLINES.)

But, for sake of argument, let's take it at face value: Draft an OT after the 1st and there's about a 1/3 chance he'll ever be "coached up" to starting quality. That sounds about right; Sambrailo and Schofield COMBINED might amount to 2/3 of a starting quality OT. Too bad 12-man formations are illegal. ;)

ANY coach turning the THIRD rounds NEXT TO LAST PICK into a decent OT is about as likely as making a 3rd QB the next Russell Wilson.

Joel
01-31-2017, 06:47 AM
What's sad is that we're all pleasantly surprised that the line was ranked 24th.
*shrugs* It's PFF: Football Outsiders ranks us (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2016) 24th in PASS PROTECTION, but slightly higher in run blocking (20th in Stuffs, but 13th in 2nd level yardage, which is more a tribute to CJ and Booker than to any of our linemen.) The difference is FO does (a lot) of statistical homework, draws a curve along the data, then draws conclusions from the results, while PFF more often seems to draw conclusions, then hunt up whatever whichever (if any) stats facilitate fitting data to the curve.

Freyaka
01-31-2017, 08:25 AM
Sigh....apparently I have to show you again how wrong you are...

Here are tackles starting in the NFL in order of their pass pro this season. (I only made it through the first 18 teams, gotta get to work)

Raiders
LT Donald Penn (undrafted)
RT Menelik Watson (pick 42)

Steelers
LT Alejandro Villanueva (Undrafted)
RT Marcus Gilbert (Pick 63)

Giants
LT Ereck Flowers (Pick 9)
RT Bobby Hart (Pick 226)

Redskins
LT Trent Williams (pick 4)
RT Morgan Moses (Pick 66)

Patriots
LT Nate Solder (Pick 17)
RT Marcus Cannon (pick 138)

Saints
LT Terron Armstead (pick 75)
RT Zach Strief (pick 210)

Bears
LT Charles Leno Jr. (246)
RT Bobby Massie (pick 112)

Titans
LT Taylor Lewan (pick 11)
RT Jack Conklin (pick 8)

Dallas
LT Tyron Smith (pick 9)
RT Doug Free (pick 122)

Dolphins
LT Branden Albert (pick 15)
RT Ja’Waun James (pick 19)

Texans
LT Duane Brown (pick 26)
RT Chris Clark (undrafted)

Chiefs
LT Eric Fisher (Pick 1)
RT Mitchell Schwartz (Pick 37)

Ravens
LT Ronnie Stanley (pick 6)
RT Rick Wagner (pick 168)

Eagles
LT Jason Peters (undrafted)
RT Lane Johnson (Pick 4)

Jaguars
LT Kelvin Beachum (pick 248)
RT Jeremy Parnell (undrafted)

Packers
LT David Bakhtiari (Pick 109)
RT Bryan Balaga (Pick 23)

Jets
LT Ben Ijalana (pick 49)
RT Brandon Shelly (pick 158)

Buccaneers
LT Donovan Smith (pick 34)
RT Demar Dotson (undrafted)

Of the top 18 teams in sacks allowed, 6 of the starting tackles were undrafted, only 16 of the starting tackles were taken before pick 50. 18 were taken after pick 50. So...more than half of the starting tackles in those top 18 ere not the type of picks you claim we need to make to succeed... The top half of the league alone disproves your belief that finding mid to late round diamonds in the rough is rare...It's not. Finding tackles, guards and centers late in the draft is far more easy than finding a QB late in the draft so your constant Russell Wilson comparison is highly flawed...

Give it a fricken rest Joel... Accept that you are wrong and move on to another topic.

spikerman
01-31-2017, 06:33 PM
Where was that Bolmer kid drafted?

Jaded
01-31-2017, 09:58 PM
Where was that Bolmer kid drafted?

http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/player/7315/

Sabastian Vollmer was drafted 2nd round of '09.

Jaded
01-31-2017, 10:00 PM
Yep - they're bad, but not nearly as awful as a lot of people here think.

They were that Worst OL in the NFL.

spikerman
01-31-2017, 10:29 PM
http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/player/7315/

Sabastian Vollmer was drafted 2nd round of '09.

Sorry.. I was just doing a play on words from an earlier thread or post.

Joel
02-01-2017, 02:31 AM
http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/player/7315/

Sabastian Vollmer was drafted 2nd round of '09.
#58, to be specific, but he probably sank some because 1) he played in Conference USA and 2) is a German native, so NEVER EVEN PLAYED football until age 14, when he joined the junior squad of one of those European Federation of American Football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Football_League) league teams everyone keeps saying can never amount to anything because there's no European interest in to get athletes playing competitively as kids (even though that's PRECISELY what the EFAFs junior league does.)

In other words, one of those "euros" who'd never even touched a football before HS (or gymnasium, as they say) is a better offensive linemen and has more SB rings than ALL OUR LINEMEN COMBINED. And it might be TWO soon if the Raiders ever find a D; Menelik Watson's a Mancunian picked #42 overall despite never playing til COLLEGE (though at least one member of Raider Nation wants to cut him (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/saying-goodbye-menelik-watson-where-125936056.html) because he's only been healthy enough to play a third of his 3-year career.)

If Elway wants to spend one of those mid-fifties pick reaching for an inexperienced but physically gifted European OT from a small school, fine: SUCK IT, WORLD...?!

Cugel
02-01-2017, 07:12 PM
Did I ever think the NINTH OT drafted in 2015 could be "coached up" to greatness, or even competence, or the ELEVENTH OT drafted in 2014? No, and neither did ANY of the 32 NFL GMs who REPEATEDLY rejected them in favor of far better players.

Sure, our offensive line coach—whom ELWAY decided to retain when he fired McDumbass AND when he fired Fox—sucks; that's why he went back and forth from coaching Broncos TEs who "can't block the sun out of their eyes" to similar linemen for SIX YEARS. No promotion's, no poaching by other teams who liked his "accomplishments" and outbid us, just lateral moves within the same organization. That's still not the fault of the guy who's only been head coach TWO years.

Realistically though, point to some of those #55ish or #90ish OTs who've "paid off" for other teams. There are a few, but a VERY few; it's a premium position in high demand, so any team that consistently waits to the ass end of the 3rd round to draft one will find very few of starting quality, let alone dominant ones. If your QB was utter garbage, would you wait till the 3rd to draft one? Or a #1 WR? Or to find your best pass rusher?

NO, because all those guys are long gone by then: There are two few good ones and too many teams in desperate need of them.

Let's not pretend waiting till the middle of the draft to find starting OTs, the end of the draft to find starting Gs, and waiting till the end of training camp to offer bargain basement contracts to FAs NO ONE ELSE WANTS is "putting in the effort." Had Elway put in that kind of effort as a player he wouldn't have made it through his first camp, let alone started in 5 SBs and won the last two.

Elway's done many great things as GM, but repeatedly dropped the ball on our line even after it cost us a SB blowout, became the NFLs laughing stock and forced Manning to play badly hurt the last half of his final two seasons. Maybe even HE thought Dennison could wave a magic wand and fix it, but let's also not pretend Barone was "Kubiaks" guy: Barone only became our OL coach the first time because Dennison left for Houston after McDumbass demoted him from OC to OL coach.

So the guy who replaced Dennison as our OC before has done so again, but that guys OL coach has been replaced by the one Dennison had in Houston (i.e. someone who actually WAS one of Kubiak and Dennisons guys and probably would've replaced Barone two years ago had it been solely their call.) We'll see what happens.

Regardless, don't expect improvement if we keep drafting "starting" OTs in the mid-50s, "starting" Gs in the mid-100s and filling out the rest with whatever FAs remain unsigned and cheap in August. And if we DO continue that, I don't want to hear about Elway "putting in the effort" by MERELY GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS.

There's just no point in using a premium draft pick on the crappy OL who will be available for Denver in this years' draft. Unless all the experts are totally wrong, this draft is shaping up to be the worst for OL in decades. There are NO can't miss prospects, or even elite OL prospects in this entire draft. Certainly not at T and probably not at G.

They will draft a couple of guys in the mid to later rounds who will be developmental guys this year. Don't expect any of them to start this season, unless one of them just fools all the scouts like Terrell Davis.