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View Full Version : Siemian declines Pro Bowl invite due to surgery on shoulder



LawDog
01-24-2017, 06:18 PM
http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/siemian-has-to-pass-on-pro-bowl-invite/391652290

Cool that he was invited. Had he been able to go and play, it would have just added to the offseason QB intrigue.

OrangeHoof
01-24-2017, 07:18 PM
Notice he was invited ahead of Brock Osweiler...

silkamilkamonico
01-24-2017, 07:43 PM
That's the QB they are down too? Pro Bowl selections at some positions are like bowl game invites. Just finish .500. Just be an average QB.

LawDog
01-24-2017, 08:16 PM
That's the QB they are down too? Pro Bowl selections at some positions are like bowl game invites. Just finish .500. Just be an average QB.

How's that "glass is half empty" life plan working out for you?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-24-2017, 08:19 PM
How's that "glass is half empty" life plan working out for you?

#notalenthack

#wastedrosterspot

Am I doing it right?

LawDog
01-24-2017, 08:44 PM
#notalenthack

#wastedrosterspot

Am I doing it right?

#ProBowlisforLosers

MOtorboat
01-24-2017, 08:45 PM
How's that "glass is half empty" life plan working out for you?

Just fine. It's OK to point out he was probably the 10th or 11th option. Life goes on.

Jaded
01-24-2017, 09:01 PM
Cool, I have his rookie card.

ShaneFalco
01-25-2017, 01:25 AM
Siemian such a boss he declines pro bowl invites

Joel
01-25-2017, 03:52 AM
Funny how folks keep insisting Flacco and "possibly" Eli are elite, but Siemians production his FIRST SEASON was right in between those veteran, franchise, SB-winning QBs and he's a bum. People are drooling over rumors of a trade for Rivers, and he only did SLIGHTLY better (more TDs, but more Ints, and a completion percentage <1% better.) I'm not saying Siemian's the greatest thing since Sammy Baugh, just that he's not half as bad as his critics claim. Put it this way:

Siemian had MORE TDs and LESS Ints than Wentz, yet the rookie 1st rounder's supposedly the Real Deal and the sophomore 7th rounder with OUR line's a loser? :confused:

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RK
PLAYER
TEAM
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ATT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingAttempts/seasontype/2)
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1
Matt Ryan (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/11237/matt-ryan)
ATL
373
534
69.9
4,944
9.26
76
38
7
37
117.1
309


2
Tom Brady (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2330/tom-brady)
NE
291
432
67.4
3,554
8.23
79
28
2
15
112.2
296


3
Dak Prescott (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2577417/dak-prescott)
DAL
311
459
67.8
3,667
7.99
83
23
4
25
104.9
229


4
Aaron Rodgers (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/8439/aaron-rodgers)
GB
401
610
65.7
4,428
7.26
66
40
7
35
104.2
277


5
Drew Brees (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2580/drew-brees)
NO
471
673
70.0
5,208
7.74
98
37
15
27
101.7
326


6
Sam Bradford (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/13197/sam-bradford)
MIN
395
552
71.6
3,877
7.02
71
20
5
37
99.3
258


7
Kirk Cousins (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14880/kirk-cousins)
WSH
406
606
67.0
4,917
8.11
80
25
12
23
97.2
307


8
Derek Carr (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/16757/derek-carr)
OAK
357
560
63.8
3,937
7.03
75
28
6
16
96.7
262


9
Andrew Luck (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14874/andrew-luck)
IND
346
545
63.5
4,240
7.78
64
31
13
41
96.4
283


10
Marcus Mariota (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2576980/marcus-mariota)
TEN
276
451
61.2
3,426
7.60
60
26
9
23
95.6
228


RK
PLAYER
TEAM
COMP (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completions/seasontype/2)
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11
Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/5536/ben-roethlisberger)
PIT
328
509
64.4
3,819
7.50
72
29
13
17
95.4
273


12
Ryan Tannehill (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14876/ryan-tannehill)
MIA
261
389
67.1
2,995
7.70
74
19
12
29
93.5
230


13
Matthew Stafford (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/12483/matthew-stafford)
DET
388
594
65.3
4,327
7.29
73
24
10
37
93.3
270


14
Russell Wilson (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14881/russell-wilson)
SEA
353
546
64.7
4,219
7.73
59
21
11
41
92.6
264


15
Andy Dalton (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14012/andy-dalton)
CIN
364
563
64.7
4,206
7.47
86
18
8
41
91.8
263


16
Alex Smith (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/8416/alex-smith)
KC
328
489
67.1
3,502
7.16
80
15
8
28
91.2
233


17
Colin Kaepernick (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14001/colin-kaepernick)
SF
196
331
59.2
2,241
6.77
65
16
4
36
90.7
187


18
Tyrod Taylor (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14163/tyrod-taylor)
BUF
269
436
61.7
3,023
6.93
84
17
6
42
89.6
202


19
Philip Rivers (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/5529/philip-rivers)
SD
349
578
60.4
4,386
7.59
59
33
21
36
87.9
274


20
Carson Palmer (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/4459/carson-palmer)
ARI
364
597
61.0
4,233
7.09
80
26
14
40
87.2
282


RK
PLAYER
TEAM
COMP (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completions/seasontype/2)
ATT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingAttempts/seasontype/2)
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LONG (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/longPassing/seasontype/2)
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21
Jameis Winston (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2969939/jameis-winston)
TB
345
567
60.8
4,090
7.21
45
28
18
35
86.1
256


22
Eli Manning (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/5526/eli-manning)
NYG
377
598
63.0
4,027
6.73
75
26
16
21
86.0
252


23
Trevor Siemian (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2511109/trevor-siemian)
DEN
289
486
59.5
3,401
7.00
76
18
10
31
84.6
243


24
Joe Flacco (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/11252/joe-flacco)
BAL
436
672
64.9
4,317
6.42
95
20
15
33
83.5
270


25
Carson Wentz (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2573079/carson-wentz)
PHI
379
607
62.4
3,782
6.23
73
16
14
33
79.3
236


26
Blake Bortles (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/16724/blake-bortles)
JAX
368
625
58.9
3,905
6.25
51
23
16
34
78.8
244


27
Case Keenum (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/15168/case-keenum)
LA
196
322
60.9
2,201
6.84
65
9
11
23
76.4
220


28
Cam Newton (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/13994/cam-newton)
CAR
270
510
52.9
3,509
6.88
88
19
14
36
75.8
234


29
Brock Osweiler (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14879/brock-osweiler)
HOU
301
510
59.0
2,957
5.80
53
15
16
27
72.2
197


30
Ryan Fitzpatrick (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/8664/ryan-fitzpatrick)
NYJ
228
403
56.6
2,710
6.73
57
12
17
19
69.6
194

Joel
01-25-2017, 03:54 AM
Former QBs and RBs coach Kubiak transforms a sophomore 7th rounder making his FIRST CAREER START into a Pro Bowl alternate? "Siemian SUCKS!"

Former QBs and RBs coach Kubiak fails to fix a offensive line mess Barone and Elway spent four years making before he GOT here? "Kubiak SUCKS!"

I was wrong when I said if the fan base would melt down if we didn't win a SB before Manning retired: We DID, but IT MELTED DOWN ANYWAY! :rolleyes:

King87
01-25-2017, 04:41 AM
They were running out of players. One time David Garrad was the 10th QB option for the Pro Bowl. You can't just ignore the blistering context and count it as a win.

Kubiak, the offensive guru, has a bad line in the first year, gets a LT Pro Bowler (since that means so much) and a new guard and they get worse. Not exactly a great indictment of coaching ability from the guru.

The fanbase hasn't melted down just because it doesn't worship at the Kubiak shrine.

Cugel
01-25-2017, 10:07 AM
Alfred Williams was talking about how the Pro Bowl has become such a total joke. Players get paid only for regular season games for the most part. If you're earning $500,000 per game ($8 M per season), then the $30k or $50k for playing in the Pro-Bowl is nothing. All it is is a chance of injury that could ruin your career, and they're not even paying you serious money for it.

Back in the day, that $30k was a significant amount to the players, so it was a big honor to be in the pro-bowl.

Today, not so much. :


"The three quarterbacks selected for the Pro Bowl in the AFC were Tom Brady, Derek Carr and Ben Roethlisberger, but none of them are going to be in Orlando.

"Brady’s going to the Super Bowl, Carr is recovering from a fractured fibula and Roethlisberger has opted out of the game. Andy Dalton and Alex Smith are in as replacements, but a third is getting hard to find. Marcus Mariota and Ryan Tannehill were injured to end the year and Colts quarterback Andrew Luck just had shoulder surgery.

"Bills quarterback Tyrod Taylor turned down an invite after groin surgery and Broncos quarterback Trevor Siemian has done the same after a shoulder operation of his own.

The other regular starting AFC quarterbacks that haven’t been mentioned are Philip Rivers, Joe Flacco, Blake Bortles, Brock Osweiler, Ryan Fitzpatrick and whichever Browns quarterback you’d like to include. Rivers and Flacco had the best years of that group, but the label Pro Bowl quarterback is getting stretched pretty far in the AFC.

So, Siemian was the 10th choice for a 3rd string AFC QB! Out of 16 teams. I wonder who they will tap to replace him? Perhaps Connor Cook, who played so well for the Raiders in their playoff game against the Texans? :lol:

Freyaka
01-25-2017, 10:13 AM
Notice he was invited ahead of Brock Osweiler...

And Phillip Rivers.

Cugel
01-25-2017, 10:15 AM
And Phillip Rivers.

Which guy would any coach in the NFL rather have: Trevor Siemian or Philip Rivers? Just to ask the question is to know the answer.

Freyaka
01-25-2017, 10:16 AM
Former QBs and RBs coach Kubiak transforms a sophomore 7th rounder making his FIRST CAREER START into a Pro Bowl alternate? "Siemian SUCKS!"

Former QBs and RBs coach Kubiak fails to fix a offensive line mess Barone and Elway spent four years making before he GOT here? "Kubiak SUCKS!"

I was wrong when I said if the fan base would melt down if we didn't win a SB before Manning retired: We DID, but IT MELTED DOWN ANYWAY! :rolleyes:

Oh for Pete's sake, just shut up about it already Joel, he's gone...

BroncoWave
01-25-2017, 10:29 AM
Former QBs and RBs coach Kubiak transforms a sophomore 7th rounder making his FIRST CAREER START into a Pro Bowl alternate? "Siemian SUCKS!"

Former QBs and RBs coach Kubiak fails to fix a offensive line mess Barone and Elway spent four years making before he GOT here? "Kubiak SUCKS!"

I was wrong when I said if the fan base would melt down if we didn't win a SB before Manning retired: We DID, but IT MELTED DOWN ANYWAY! :rolleyes:

Oh lord, now we have the king of chicken little scolding the fanbase about melting down. :rolleyes:

Mike
01-25-2017, 10:44 AM
Wonder what tune people would be singing if Paxton were put in. Not that I think this is an honor for Siemian's play or that he is a real Pro Bowler. But, hey, Simple Jack gonna Simple Jack.

Cugel
01-25-2017, 10:56 AM
Wonder what tune people would be singing if Paxton were put in. Not that I think this is an honor for Siemian's play or that he is a real Pro Bowler. But, hey, Simple Jack gonna Simple Jack.

What on earth does "gonna simple Jack" mean?

Cugel
01-25-2017, 10:58 AM
Oh for Pete's sake, just shut up about it already Joel, he's gone...

And it's not like Elway just fired him. Kubiak retired. Certainly there seem to have been conflicts, but Elway wanted to resolve them without getting rid of Kubiak. There's zero indication Kubiak was forced out.

Freyaka
01-25-2017, 11:06 AM
What on earth does "gonna simple Jack" mean?

You'd have to watch Tropic Thunder. Simple jack was...simple of mind...

Buff
01-25-2017, 11:55 AM
The Pro Bowl is stupid. Just name the honorary pro bowl team and be done with it. No need to play a pointless game that everyone hates with guys who aren't even pro bowlers officially (Only the original selectees get the title and contractual bonus of being a pro bowler).

On some level this is embarrassing to send all these undeserving guys to play alongside actual all pros.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-25-2017, 12:26 PM
The Pro Bowl is stupid. Just name the honorary pro bowl team and be done with it. No need to play a pointless game that everyone hates with guys who aren't even pro bowlers officially (Only the original selectees get the title and contractual bonus of being a pro bowler).

On some level this is embarrassing to send all these undeserving guys to play alongside actual all pros.

The league will continue to have it as long it makes money. The ratings for the pro bowl are better than most MLB divisional playoff games

Freyaka
01-25-2017, 12:32 PM
The league will continue to have it as long it makes money. The ratings for the pro bowl are better than most MLB divisional playoff games

I mean that's not saying a lot though...who actually watches Baseball these days?

Bronco4ever
01-25-2017, 12:33 PM
I'm excited to watch the Pro Bowl skills competition.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-25-2017, 12:53 PM
I'm excited to watch the Pro Bowl skills competition.

I'm glad they seem to be bringing that part back. That was the best part, the various skills competitions, fastest man, the alumni flag football game, etc. The game itself is largely a non event because nobody wants to get hurt. There are some games that are entertaining though. Cam Newton and Von Miller rookie game was great because they beat the hell out of Newton. They were going full speed on defense and sacked him, hard, like 4 times. No "just wrap him up until the whistle" stuff, they we're laying the wood on him. I was entertained.

Mike
01-25-2017, 01:41 PM
Do you guys remember when they used to have that QB competition? Had a whole bunch of drills that the top QBs would compete in as far as throwing the ball. It looked like the players liked being there and doing it. I loved watching that and would watch it again.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-25-2017, 01:47 PM
Do you guys remember when they used to have that QB competition? Had a whole bunch of drills that the top QBs would compete in as far as throwing the ball. It looked like the players liked being there and doing it. I loved watching that and would watch it again.

I remember it. It was pretty cool. Brett Favre threw a ball 85 yards

Bronco4ever
01-25-2017, 01:48 PM
I think bringing back the skills competition could be the Pro Bowl's saving grace. Nobody wants to watch a half assed game of football, but if I get to watch the best players in the league going head to head in various skill competitions, now I'm intrigued. These guys probably care about winning the dodgeball more than the football game anyway. Might as well have some fun with it.

I Eat Staples
01-25-2017, 02:02 PM
The league will continue to have it as long it makes money. The ratings for the pro bowl are better than most MLB divisional playoff games

Really? That's ******* nuts. I think playoff baseball is amazing, but I guess the sport just isn't popular these days.

Northman
01-25-2017, 02:08 PM
Baseball is so ******* boring..... but then again so is the NFL Pro Bowl.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-25-2017, 02:16 PM
You can say what you want about the Pro bowl, but NFL rules TV ratings. The Pro bowl is almost always the highest rated program of the day.

gregbroncs
01-25-2017, 02:31 PM
I can't believe people still watch the pro bowl....or baseball. I'll watch either of them if I'm really in need of a nap.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-25-2017, 02:50 PM
Do you guys remember when they used to have that QB competition? Had a whole bunch of drills that the top QBs would compete in as far as throwing the ball. It looked like the players liked being there and doing it. I loved watching that and would watch it again.

The cool part is they would do it in the offseason before TC started so there was something football related to watch. I remember watching Jake Plummer do one when he was still with AZ. Just like real life, he moved well and threw well on the run but was one of the worst accuracy wise when stationary. He had a pretty strong arm distance wise though.

turftoad
01-25-2017, 05:55 PM
You can say what you want about the Pro bowl, but NFL rules TV ratings. The Pro bowl is almost always the highest rated program of the day.

If you like watching flag football!

BroncoWave
01-25-2017, 06:18 PM
If you like watching flag football!

Obviously a bunch of people do.

NightTerror218
01-25-2017, 06:45 PM
Joel confuses me. Never know what side of argument he is on. First its QB play then its OL now he is humping siemians leg.

NightTerror218
01-25-2017, 06:47 PM
Funny how folks keep insisting Flacco and "possibly" Eli are elite, but Siemians production his FIRST SEASON was right in between those veteran, franchise, SB-winning QBs and he's a bum. People are drooling over rumors of a trade for Rivers, and he only did SLIGHTLY better (more TDs, but more Ints, and a completion percentage <1% better.) I'm not saying Siemian's the greatest thing since Sammy Baugh, just that he's not half as bad as his critics claim. Put it this way:

Siemian had MORE TDs and LESS Ints than Wentz, yet the rookie 1st rounder's supposedly the Real Deal and the sophomore 7th rounder with OUR line's a loser? :confused:

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RK
PLAYER
TEAM
COMP (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completions/seasontype/2)
ATT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingAttempts/seasontype/2)
PCT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct/seasontype/2)
YDS (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingYards/seasontype/2)
YDS/A (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt/seasontype/2)
LONG (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/longPassing/seasontype/2)
TD (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingTouchdowns/seasontype/2)
INT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/interceptions/seasontype/2)
SACK (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/sacks/seasontype/2)
RATE (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/seasontype/2/order/false)
YDS/G (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingYardsPerGame/seasontype/2)


1
Matt Ryan (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/11237/matt-ryan)
ATL
373
534
69.9
4,944
9.26
76
38
7
37
117.1
309


2
Tom Brady (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2330/tom-brady)
NE
291
432
67.4
3,554
8.23
79
28
2
15
112.2
296


3
Dak Prescott (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2577417/dak-prescott)
DAL
311
459
67.8
3,667
7.99
83
23
4
25
104.9
229


4
Aaron Rodgers (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/8439/aaron-rodgers)
GB
401
610
65.7
4,428
7.26
66
40
7
35
104.2
277


5
Drew Brees (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2580/drew-brees)
NO
471
673
70.0
5,208
7.74
98
37
15
27
101.7
326


6
Sam Bradford (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/13197/sam-bradford)
MIN
395
552
71.6
3,877
7.02
71
20
5
37
99.3
258


7
Kirk Cousins (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14880/kirk-cousins)
WSH
406
606
67.0
4,917
8.11
80
25
12
23
97.2
307


8
Derek Carr (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/16757/derek-carr)
OAK
357
560
63.8
3,937
7.03
75
28
6
16
96.7
262


9
Andrew Luck (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14874/andrew-luck)
IND
346
545
63.5
4,240
7.78
64
31
13
41
96.4
283


10
Marcus Mariota (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2576980/marcus-mariota)
TEN
276
451
61.2
3,426
7.60
60
26
9
23
95.6
228


RK
PLAYER
TEAM
COMP (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completions/seasontype/2)
ATT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingAttempts/seasontype/2)
PCT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct/seasontype/2)
YDS (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingYards/seasontype/2)
YDS/A (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt/seasontype/2)
LONG (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/longPassing/seasontype/2)
TD (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingTouchdowns/seasontype/2)
INT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/interceptions/seasontype/2)
SACK (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/sacks/seasontype/2)
RATE (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/seasontype/2/order/false)
YDS/G (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingYardsPerGame/seasontype/2)


11
Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/5536/ben-roethlisberger)
PIT
328
509
64.4
3,819
7.50
72
29
13
17
95.4
273


12
Ryan Tannehill (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14876/ryan-tannehill)
MIA
261
389
67.1
2,995
7.70
74
19
12
29
93.5
230


13
Matthew Stafford (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/12483/matthew-stafford)
DET
388
594
65.3
4,327
7.29
73
24
10
37
93.3
270


14
Russell Wilson (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14881/russell-wilson)
SEA
353
546
64.7
4,219
7.73
59
21
11
41
92.6
264


15
Andy Dalton (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14012/andy-dalton)
CIN
364
563
64.7
4,206
7.47
86
18
8
41
91.8
263


16
Alex Smith (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/8416/alex-smith)
KC
328
489
67.1
3,502
7.16
80
15
8
28
91.2
233


17
Colin Kaepernick (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14001/colin-kaepernick)
SF
196
331
59.2
2,241
6.77
65
16
4
36
90.7
187


18
Tyrod Taylor (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14163/tyrod-taylor)
BUF
269
436
61.7
3,023
6.93
84
17
6
42
89.6
202


19
Philip Rivers (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/5529/philip-rivers)
SD
349
578
60.4
4,386
7.59
59
33
21
36
87.9
274


20
Carson Palmer (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/4459/carson-palmer)
ARI
364
597
61.0
4,233
7.09
80
26
14
40
87.2
282


RK
PLAYER
TEAM
COMP (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completions/seasontype/2)
ATT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingAttempts/seasontype/2)
PCT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct/seasontype/2)
YDS (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingYards/seasontype/2)
YDS/A (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt/seasontype/2)
LONG (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/longPassing/seasontype/2)
TD (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingTouchdowns/seasontype/2)
INT (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/interceptions/seasontype/2)
SACK (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/sacks/seasontype/2)
RATE (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/seasontype/2/order/false)
YDS/G (http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingYardsPerGame/seasontype/2)


21
Jameis Winston (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2969939/jameis-winston)
TB
345
567
60.8
4,090
7.21
45
28
18
35
86.1
256


22
Eli Manning (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/5526/eli-manning)
NYG
377
598
63.0
4,027
6.73
75
26
16
21
86.0
252


23
Trevor Siemian (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2511109/trevor-siemian)
DEN
289
486
59.5
3,401
7.00
76
18
10
31
84.6
243


24
Joe Flacco (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/11252/joe-flacco)
BAL
436
672
64.9
4,317
6.42
95
20
15
33
83.5
270


25
Carson Wentz (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2573079/carson-wentz)
PHI
379
607
62.4
3,782
6.23
73
16
14
33
79.3
236


26
Blake Bortles (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/16724/blake-bortles)
JAX
368
625
58.9
3,905
6.25
51
23
16
34
78.8
244


27
Case Keenum (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/15168/case-keenum)
LA
196
322
60.9
2,201
6.84
65
9
11
23
76.4
220


28
Cam Newton (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/13994/cam-newton)
CAR
270
510
52.9
3,509
6.88
88
19
14
36
75.8
234


29
Brock Osweiler (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14879/brock-osweiler)
HOU
301
510
59.0
2,957
5.80
53
15
16
27
72.2
197


30
Ryan Fitzpatrick (http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/8664/ryan-fitzpatrick)
NYJ
228
403
56.6
2,710
6.73
57
12
17
19
69.6
194



If i use qbr as a rating of a QB. Which this is juat dumb but ok.

We arw idiots for not trading for kaepwrnick since he is like 7 spots above siemian.

NightTerror218
01-25-2017, 06:48 PM
You can say what you want about the Pro bowl, but NFL rules TV ratings. The Pro bowl is almost always the highest rated program of the day.

Ans it draws a good amount of people to see it too

ShaneFalco
01-25-2017, 08:00 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/qRr8rV9WisagU/giphy.gif

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-25-2017, 08:01 PM
If you like watching flag football!

I didn't say I watch it. It's unbearable viewing.

Joel
01-25-2017, 10:24 PM
If i use qbr as a rating of a QB. Which this is juat dumb but ok.

We arw idiots for not trading for kaepwrnick since he is like 7 spots above siemian.
Those aren't ESPNs subjective and proprietary "QBR" (which was surprisingly but mercifully excluded here,) but all other individual QB accomplishments are included for anyone who considers one of them more relevant. They're all in the passer rating too though, because weighting and adding them all IS the passer rating. One can dispute the validity of the weights (e.g. I think it's stupid to say 4 completions=1 TD, and anyone who recalls Orton knows why,) but all passing metrics are there.

If you prefer going by a single stat though, the ESPN allows that: Among qualifiers, Siemian had the

22nd most TDs (1 less than Newton and Tannehill, as many as Dalton and 1 more than Kaepernick and Wentz)
11th least Ints (1 more than Mariota, as many as Stafford, and 1 less than Wilson, but more than Kaepernick)
20th in yds/att (just behind Carr and Bradford, just ahead of Taylor and Newton and well ahead of Kaepernick)
25th in completion percentage (just behind Winston and Rivers, just ahead of Kaepernick and Osweiler)

Note also that the TD and Int numbers are totals, and Siemian had less attempts than most starters, so ranks higher on a per attempt basis. So Keapernick had less total TDs, but more per attempt, as well as less Ints; despite the lower completion percentage, I'd say he played slightly better (he had less yds/att, but that's more a factor of his accuracy than his arm strength.)

He also made $17M last year, while Siemian made the 2nd year minimum of $0.525M. But if a marginally better QB is worth $16½M of cap space, yes, we're idiots for not making that trade. ;) Maybe: At 29, Kaepernick's probably improved as much as he EVER will; at 25, Siemian's still got time left to develop further.

Joel
01-25-2017, 10:35 PM
Joel confuses me. Never know what side of argument he is on. First its QB play then its OL now he is humping siemians leg.
It's simple: Siemian's not as bad as his critics claim, and a big reason is that his head coach was a former QBs coach who's sent EVERY STARTING QB HE'S EVER HAD TO A PRO BOWL, but that former QB coach has NEVER COACHED AN OFFENSIVE LINE, so the line problems we had for YEARS before him didn't magically become his fault when he walked through through the door.

It's unreasonable to expect a mess that took FOUR YEARS to make can be cleaned up in TWO, especially when you go from a first ballot HoF QB to a completely untested sophomore 7th rounder in between those two years. Yet that green QB with a Swiss cheese line getting his shoulder beat up still had a year that was only slightly below average, which earned him a Pro Bowl invitation that's a credit to the former QB coach running the team.

The truth of that will likely become quickly apparent next September, because McCoy's never DEVELOPED a QB, only worked with whatever he already had. Siemian's not Peyton Manning, but he's not Kyle Orton either. Sadly, neither he nor Lynch is likely to be "coached up" and further now.

Freyaka
01-26-2017, 08:08 AM
https://media.giphy.com/media/qRr8rV9WisagU/giphy.gif

I'm starting to think Mike's Simple Jack comment may be rather fitting...That was...special....

NightTerror218
01-26-2017, 12:35 PM
Those aren't ESPNs subjective and proprietary "QBR" (which was surprisingly but mercifully excluded here,) but all other individual QB accomplishments are included for anyone who considers one of them more relevant. They're all in the passer rating too though, because weighting and adding them all IS the passer rating. One can dispute the validity of the weights (e.g. I think it's stupid to say 4 completions=1 TD, and anyone who recalls Orton knows why,) but all passing metrics are there.

If you prefer going by a single stat though, the ESPN allows that: Among qualifiers, Siemian had the

22nd most TDs (1 less than Newton and Tannehill, as many as Dalton and 1 more than Kaepernick and Wentz)
11th least Ints (1 more than Mariota, as many as Stafford, and 1 less than Wilson, but more than Kaepernick)
20th in yds/att (just behind Carr and Bradford, just ahead of Taylor and Newton and well ahead of Kaepernick)
25th in completion percentage (just behind Winston and Rivers, just ahead of Kaepernick and Osweiler)

Note also that the TD and Int numbers are totals, and Siemian had less attempts than most starters, so ranks higher on a per attempt basis. So Keapernick had less total TDs, but more per attempt, as well as less Ints; despite the lower completion percentage, I'd say he played slightly better (he had less yds/att, but that's more a factor of his accuracy than his arm strength.)

He also made $17M last year, while Siemian made the 2nd year minimum of $0.525M. But if a marginally better QB is worth $16½M of cap space, yes, we're idiots for not making that trade. ;) Maybe: At 29, Kaepernick's probably improved as much as he EVER will; at 25, Siemian's still got time left to develop further.

And many claim stats do not tell the whole story.

Newton had arguably his worst season yet was nfl mvp last year. Kaep played 5 games less than siemian.

My knocks on siemian arw that he plays half a game. Gets good 4th quarter stats. Is not clutch at all. Some of the QBs you listed. I would put the game on the line with ball in their hands to make a play. I would not with siemian. Also siemian had a good run in beginning of season with no ints. But end of season that was not the story, regression. Some claim its injury if so. He might be injury prone. Never played a full season healthy, college or nfl as a starter.

I Eat Staples
01-26-2017, 03:32 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/qRr8rV9WisagU/giphy.gif

This made me feel uncomfortable.

Freyaka
01-26-2017, 03:36 PM
This made me feel uncomfortable.

I cringed involuntarily....

ShaneFalco
01-26-2017, 04:05 PM
There will only be one qb with a SB ring and a Pro Bowl invitation in camp !


and his name is SIEMIAN!

Jaded
01-26-2017, 11:03 PM
It's simple: Siemian's not as bad as his critics claim, and a big reason is that his head coach was a former QBs coach who's sent EVERY STARTING QB HE'S EVER HAD TO A PRO BOWL, but that former QB coach has NEVER COACHED AN OFFENSIVE LINE, so the line problems we had for YEARS before him didn't magically become his fault when he walked through through the door.

It's unreasonable to expect a mess that took FOUR YEARS to make can be cleaned up in TWO, especially when you go from a first ballot HoF QB to a completely untested sophomore 7th rounder in between those two years. Yet that green QB with a Swiss cheese line getting his shoulder beat up still had a year that was only slightly below average, which earned him a Pro Bowl invitation that's a credit to the former QB coach running the team.

The truth of that will likely become quickly apparent next September, because McCoy's never DEVELOPED a QB, only worked with whatever he already had. Siemian's not Peyton Manning, but he's not Kyle Orton either. Sadly, neither he nor Lynch is likely to be "coached up" and further now.
Bill Musgrave helped develop Derrick Carr.

Northman
01-26-2017, 11:11 PM
Derek

Joel
01-27-2017, 02:00 AM
Bill Musgrave helped develop Derrick Carr.
Makes me wonder why Oakland dumped him, since their powerful offense was what made them the AFC favorite most of the season despite Del Rios weak D. I mean, you can't blame the OC if the starting AND backup QB get hurt the last two games of the season (if the OL can't protect him, that's OBVIOUSLY the HCs fault. ;))

Freyaka
01-27-2017, 02:03 AM
Makes me wonder why Oakland dumped him, since their powerful offense was what made them the AFC favorite most of the season despite Del Rios weak D. I mean, you can't blame the OC if the starting AND backup QB get hurt the last two games of the season (if the OL can't protect him, that's OBVIOUSLY the HCs fault.)

Wait...so it's the HC who is responsible for the o-line's failure? Does that mean we need to start putting that on Kubiak?

Joel
01-27-2017, 02:07 AM
Wait...so it's the HC who is responsible for the o-line's failure? Does that mean we need to start putting that on Kubiak?
I was being sarcastic because putting it all on Kubiak is EXACTLY what most people are doing: The OL's sucked since 2010 because of the HC we hired in 2015.

King87
01-27-2017, 02:20 AM
I was being sarcastic because putting it all on Kubiak is EXACTLY what most people are doing: The OL's sucked since 2010 because of the HC we hired in 2015.

No, that's not the claim. The offensive line hasn't been good in a long time. But Kubiak was hired to fix the offense. He had control over his coaches on offense, whom he oversaw. In his two seasons we were never even remotely close to having a good offense.

Joel
01-27-2017, 02:46 AM
No, that's not the claim. The offensive line hasn't been good in a long time. But Kubiak was hired to fix the offense. He had control over his coaches on offense, whom he oversaw. In his two seasons we were never even remotely close to having a good offense.
Kubiak fixed the two areas where he has expertise: The QBs and RBs. Anyone who thinks any other coach would've gotten a better season than Flaccos or Eli Mannings out of a second-year 7th round QB making his first NFL starts behind THIS line is kidding themselves (or has an axe to grind.... ;))

Meanwhile, McDumbass' line sucked under OL coach Barone, Foxs line sucked under OL coach Barone and (surprise, surprise) Kubiaks line sucked under OL coach Barone. But that's somehow Kubiaks fault too, because Barone was "his" guy, even though ELWAY retained Barone even after firing TWO previous HCs.

If you want to bash Dennison for the OLs non-improvement that's (slightly) more fair, because he's actually got a fair amount of experience and expertise "coaching up" offensive linemen. But blaming Kubiak is like blaming the US Navy for the fall of Corregidor: Instead of blaming them for a preexisting problem someone else created, be grateful they were at least able to mitigate it so it wasn't a total disaster.

King87
01-27-2017, 02:56 AM
Kubiak fixed the two areas where he has expertise: The QBs and RBs. Anyone who thinks any other coach would've gotten a better season than Flaccos or Eli Mannings out of a second-year 7th round QB making his first NFL starts behind THIS line is kidding themselves (or has an axe to grind.... ;))

Meanwhile, McDumbass' line sucked under OL coach Barone, Foxs line sucked under OL coach Barone and (surprise, surprise) Kubiaks line sucked under OL coach Barone. But that's somehow Kubiaks fault too, because Barone was "his" guy, even though ELWAY retained Barone even after firing TWO previous HCs.

If you want to bash Dennison for the OLs non-improvement that's (slightly) more fair, because he's actually got a fair amount of experience and expertise "coaching up" offensive linemen. But blaming Kubiak is like blaming the US Navy for the fall of Corregidor: Instead of blaming them for a preexisting problem someone else created, be grateful they were at least able to mitigate it so it wasn't a total disaster.

He didn't fix any QB's. Brock was meh for us. Manning was meh for us when he was hurt and banged up, and when he wasn't Kubiak doesn't get credit for starting him. Anderson was already good before Kubiak got here. Actually, our other RB's have some talent, but they didn't do much for us either. So no, he didn't fix the RB's or the QB. That is categorically pooptastic.

Kubiak isn't impacted by what happened to Fox or McDaniels. It's his team now. He kept the bad coaches. If the notion is that because the line doesn't have all world talent it's not anyone's fault then I really hope if the line was beastly and talented you wouldn't be heaping praise on Kubiak, either.

Mitigate the disaster? The line was so bad that we were lucky to be twentieth and then twenty fourth? You mean if we had a lesser HC -who wasn't involved with the line at all, just like Kubiak- that somehow would have meant our line would have been worse. Or the OL coach we had that Kubiak kept was so sick at his job that we were lucky not to be ranked at 30-32?

Man..............

Joel
01-27-2017, 03:17 AM
He didn't fix any QB's. Brock was meh for us. Manning was meh for us when he was hurt and banged up, and when he wasn't Kubiak doesn't get credit for starting him. Anderson was already good before Kubiak got here. Actually, our other RB's have some talent, but they didn't do much for us either. So no, he didn't fix the RB's or the QB. That is categorically pooptastic.
Oz was WAY better for us when he'd had as many starts as Siemian (i.e. NONE) than he's EVER been for Houston even with a 5-2 starters record: That's why Houston was willing to guarantee him $37M. Unless you think it was because of Oz' extraordinary talent or our elite line giving him the time to look better than he is? Kubiak's gotten a lot of well deserved credit for managing BOTH our starting QBs egos last year well enough to win a SB.

Our other RBs have so MUCH talent we cut half of them (including BOTH former starters) last and drafted Booker to backup CJ; both have outperformed anything Hillman or Ball ever did.


Kubiak isn't impacted by what happened to Fox or McDaniels. It's his team now. He kept the bad coaches. If the notion is that because the line doesn't have all world talent it's not anyone's fault then I really hope if the line was beastly and talented you wouldn't be heaping praise on Kubiak, either.
If the GM wants an incumbent assistant and the incoming head coach doesn't, guess who wins? Hint: Fox didn't have any more of a previous relationship with Barone than Kubiak did, but when McDumbass left, Barone stayed. And when Fox left, Barone stayed again; thank God he finally wore out his welcome this year.


Mitigate the disaster? The line was so bad that we were lucky to be twentieth and then twenty fourth? You mean if we had a lesser HC -who wasn't involved with the line at all, just like Kubiak- that somehow would have meant our line would have been worse. Or the OL coach we had that Kubiak kept was so sick at his job that we were lucky not to be ranked at 30-32?
A lesser HC with THIS line wouldn't have made a guy like Oz a 5-2 starter who completed 62% of his passes for nearly twice as many TDs as Ints: His numbers were far WORSE with a BETTER line this year. A lesser HC with THIS line wouldn't have made a sophomore 7th rounder whose only "pro snap" was a KNEEL DOWN into a 8-6 starter who outperformed a DOZEN starters this year, including past Pro Bowlers and last years NFL MVP.

Just as a lesser HC wouldn't have made Pro Bowlers of Griese, Plummer and Schaub. Even St. WALSH NEVER made Steve Young a champion—but Shanny and Kubes did, in a SINGLE SEASON: Just as Kubes and Wade did in Denver. Stop thinking of Kubiak as the line coach he's NEVER been; whoever told you otherwise was wrong, but it sure wasn't me.

Prediction: Siemian's critics will be "vindicated" when he regresses next year, but Lynch will do no better. THEN come talk to me about what Kubiak did of didn't do.

King87
01-27-2017, 03:25 AM
What happens next year doesn't mean that Kubiak did or did not do a good job. What does cutting RB's mean if they're upgrades when they aren't producing? I agree, they have talent. Plenty of talent. Yet they did nothing. With Kubiak...as their head coach...

Bro, I get that you love him. He's your guy. I get it.

But he's an average head coach.

Buff
01-27-2017, 11:42 AM
What happens next year doesn't mean that Kubiak did or did not do a good job. What does cutting RB's mean if they're upgrades when they aren't producing? I agree, they have talent. Plenty of talent. Yet they did nothing. With Kubiak...as their head coach...

Bro, I get that you love him. He's your guy. I get it.

But he's an average head coach.

I think he was a good leader whose scheme gradually had become outdated. I think he got the most out of his guys from an effort standpoint - but there were real questions about whether the offense was set up to succeed from a play calling and personnel standpoint.

Joel
01-28-2017, 07:44 AM
I think he was a good leader whose scheme gradually had become outdated. I think he got the most out of his guys from an effort standpoint - but there were real questions about whether the offense was set up to succeed from a play calling and personnel standpoint.
Kubiak didn't control personnel nearly as much as most people seem to think. Which is odd, because a number of those people said that was a GOOD thing when he was first hired, noting the problems simultaneously wearing the HC and GM hats caused under Shanny and McDumbass. We all know who DOES wear the GM hat though, so if there's a serious personnel problem we also all know whom most fans will (or rather WON'T) throw under the bus. ;)

Jaded
01-28-2017, 11:01 AM
Average HC that won the SB, I hope Vance Joseph is so average. No excuses needed, Kubiak did what few have been able to do.

And that "Outdated system" is back in another SB this year.

#SuckitWORLD!

Jaded
01-28-2017, 11:29 AM
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/GrudJo0.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/KubiGa0.htm

There's a lot of similarities between Kubiak and Jon Gruden, most notably winning a SB on the strength of their defense. If you really think about it, Kubiak has accomplished far more; he accomplished more as a player (Gruden never earned a starting job at the college level), he accomplished more as a coordinator, and we know similarities as NFL HC's.

Here's the thing I don't get, Gruden will always be the most popular HC candidate every December...and Kubiak will go down as a punchline in the minds of his own teams fans.

They run the same "outdated " system, btw. Gruden's was even more dink and dunk/run oriented.

Northman
01-28-2017, 11:33 AM
I dont get it, Kubiak retired. What is the problem?

Jaded
01-28-2017, 11:36 AM
I dont get it, Kubiak retired. What is the problem?

I think it's "Credit where credit is due" at the moment. The way the narrative is shaping you'd think Kubiak was fired instead of retired.

Joel
01-28-2017, 11:44 AM
I think it's "Credit where credit is due" at the moment. The way the narrative is shaping you'd think Kubiak was fired instead of retired.He was "forced out" because Elway didn't like Kubiak "shoving his guy Siemian down the teams throat." Just like Wade was "forced" out because he defended defenders when they called out that awful Kubiak offense for what it was. My neighbors cousins best friends dog SAID so, and you can take that to the bank! ;)

I'm trying not to think about the Joseph/Shanahan decision right now. I get it: If we waited for a coach good enough to help his team to a SB we might've missed out on one good enough to help his team get blown out Wildcard Weekend (again.) But that's the kind of logic that brought Fox to Chicago....

Northman
01-28-2017, 11:47 AM
The truth is we really dont know how much of anything else played into Kubes retiring. Its all speculation and rumors at this point.

Jaded
01-28-2017, 12:02 PM
I don't think was forced to retire by the Broncos, I'm still leaning towards it being mainly health but also not wanting to gut the offensive staff (and maybe even Phillips). Kubiak had to know change was coming and I don't think he had the stomach for it.

Plus, the feeling I get about Kubiak's wife is that she was done with it. I got that from Sandy Clough as early as October who said it was brewing as early as the day after the SB.

Joel
01-28-2017, 12:06 PM
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/GrudJo0.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/KubiGa0.htm

There's a lot of similarities between Kubiak and Jon Gruden, most notably winning a SB on the strength of their defense. If you really think about it, Kubiak has accomplished far more; he accomplished more as a player (Gruden never earned a starting job at the college level), he accomplished more as a coordinator, and we know similarities as NFL HC's.

Here's the thing I don't get, Gruden will always be the most popular HC candidate every December...and Kubiak will go down as a punchline in the minds of his own teams fans.

They run the same "outdated " system, btw. Gruden's was even more dink and dunk/run oriented.
They have the same playoff record as HC, but Kubiaks record as an assistant is far better. And before everyone points to Kubiaks HCs and player talent:

Gruden had the TWO-TIME defending champs, Walsh, Holmgren, Montana AND Young when he was SFs offensive assistant in 1990, but they lost the NFCCG.

Kubiak had Siefert, Shanahan and Young as SFs QB coach in '94, but they denied DALLAS' threepeat in the NFCCG before blowing out the Bolts in the SB.

Plus, of course, Kubiak helped Denver win back-to-back as our OC, producing a 2000 yd rusher, the ONLY player to EVER have 3 rushing TDs in a SB and ensuring Elway retired with a Ring just as he previously did for Young. Put another way: Not only is the Ring Gruden won by using an elite D to crush an offense he BUILT his only one as a HC, it's his only one at ANY level—player, assistant, or OC; Kubiak just needs "one for the thumb."

Joel
01-28-2017, 12:09 PM
The truth is we really dont know how much of anything else played into Kubes retiring. Its all speculation and rumors at this point.
Bingo. I don't buy all the talk about Elway insisting on and Kubiak refusing to gut the offensive staff just two years in; I think Barone was gone no matter what, because he's STILL gone (and while he got another assistant gig, he's back to coaching TEs, not linemen,) but I also don't buy all the talk about him being "Kubiaks" guy. Kubiak inherited him from Fox who inherited him from McDumbass, and we just hired Kubiaks former Texans line coach away from Jax to run ours, so....

Jaded
01-28-2017, 12:52 PM
Changes were coming, Joel, you had to know that watching that offense. Not just Barone, Pariani was despised by his players and offensive players as a whole (I have no way of documenting that so take it fwiw) and the entire "Co-coordinator"-but-not-really-coordinators structure was a horrible idea from the beginning.

King87
01-28-2017, 01:17 PM
He didn't inherit coaches. He kept the coaches. He hired and choose his own coaches. It's grasping at straws and hope to say that he kept ole boy. You just want it to be that way so Kubiak doesn't have to take the blame.

Jaded
01-28-2017, 01:19 PM
Had no business keeping Barone, not at OL Coach. Make him Asst OL Coach if you have to have Pariani.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-28-2017, 01:20 PM
Had no business keeping Barone, not at OL Coach. Make him Asst OL Coach if you have to have Pariani.

Make them the local high school liaisons. Then consistently send them to communities for week long camps in the corners of the state

Joel
01-28-2017, 01:29 PM
Changes were coming, Joel, you had to know that watching that offense. Not just Barone, Pariani was despised by his players and offensive players as a whole (I have no way of documenting that so take it fwiw) and the entire "Co-coordinator"-but-not-really-coordinators structure was a horrible idea from the beginning.
I keep coming back to the fact Kubiak and Dennison had undeniably great lines under THREE regimes with DIFFERENT teams, and their ONLY bad one was one that was ALREADY TERRIBLE. Makes it really hard to believe THEY were the problem, or that things will get better rather than worse without them.

I don't think Kubiak kept Dennison and Pariani around just for sentimental value either; before our fans dubbed him "Brick," Owen Daniels was an All Pro TE in Houston, and the only reason we got the very good Joel Dreesen as his career wound down is that Daniels was just that much better. Before that, Pariani had a pretty good TE in his first stint with Denver; guy by the name of "Sharpe."

So I think the most likely problem with our TEs is the guy who'd spent the most time directly coaching them—which happens to be the guy who went back and forth between doing that and coaching our awful offensive linemen every other year since McDumbass hired him.

Maybe if Kubiak had been willing to delegate more to Dennison they'd both still be here. If nothing else, Dennison actually HAS been an offensive line coach (twice if we count the year McDumbass demoted him to install McCoy as OC) as well as QBs coach when Flacco had his stellar 2014 renaissance and STs coach when Elway won his SBs, after playing LB on all Elways previous SB teams. In an era when it's considered noteworthy for NFL players to get ANY degree, Dennison not only got a degree, but in ENGINEERING, and BEFORE the draft, then went back to get his MASTERS his first offseason. This is a SMART guy who's seen a LOT of football at the highest levels and from many perspectives.

Dennison's not just Kubiaks wubby, but the flip side is that there's probably a reason he and Pariani have stayed with Kubiak virtually their whole careers.

King87
01-28-2017, 01:34 PM
Hold on - you've said Kubiak isn't accountable for the line. So if he isn't, that means other people are. He had a bad OL coach that he kept. You can blame the players, sure, but the fact of that matter is that he had an average LT and a great center. The RT was shit, the guards were bad. However, I've seen worse lines with worse talent. Point being, even if you say 'well the lines were good elsewhere' that doesn't get him off the hook. Joelio Jones!!!!!!!!!

Joel
01-28-2017, 01:37 PM
He didn't inherit coaches. He kept the coaches. He hired and choose his own coaches. It's grasping at straws and hope to say that he kept ole boy. You just want it to be that way so Kubiak doesn't have to take the blame.
Sure, sure: Elway rubber stamped all Kubiaks handpicked coaches, but Elways opposition to "Kubiaks" coaches is why he "forced out" Kubiak. Same with the linemen: A hardnosed defensive minded coach like Kubiak just decided a PAIR of HoF OLBs wasn't enough when he could have a #4 in the 1st round, and wait till the end of the 2nd to get an OT—Von and Ware needed a LOT more help than the offensive line that had Manning and CJ limping by midseason, right?

You want to talk about having it both ways: You can't pretend Elway meticulously and flawlessly crafts every minute aspect of the roster to perfection, then turn around and blame its longstanding deficiencies on the most recently hired HC being too fixated on doing things "his" way.

I promise you Kubiak didn't want to spend the last two years running a rickety jalopy of an offense wholly unlike what he had with Elway and Davis, or even Schaub and Foster or Flacco and Forsett. But he ALSO knew that if you're gonna enter a rickety old jalopy in the Indy 500 you better nurse that SOB for all your worth if you even want to FINISH, let alone win.

MOtorboat
01-28-2017, 01:38 PM
I keep coming back to the fact Kubiak and Dennison had undeniably great lines under THREE regimes with DIFFERENT teams, and their ONLY bad one was one that was ALREADY TERRIBLE. Makes it really hard to believe THEY were the problem, or that things will get better rather than worse without them.

I don't think Kubiak kept Dennison and Pariani around just for sentimental value either; before our fans dubbed him "Brick," Owen Daniels was an All Pro TE in Houston, and the only reason we got the very good Joel Dreesen as his career wound down is that Daniels was just that much better. Before that, Pariani had a pretty good TE in his first stint with Denver; guy by the name of "Sharpe."

So I think the most likely problem with our TEs is the guy who'd spent the most time directly coaching them—which happens to be the guy who went back and forth between doing that and coaching our awful offensive linemen every other year since McDumbass hired him.

Maybe if Kubiak had been willing to delegate more to Dennison they'd both still be here. If nothing else, Dennison actually HAS been an offensive line coach (twice if we count the year McDumbass demoted him to install McCoy as OC) as well as QBs coach when Flacco had his stellar 2014 renaissance and STs coach when Elway won his SBs, after playing LB on all Elways previous SB teams. In an era when it's considered noteworthy for NFL players to get ANY degree, Dennison not only got a degree, but in ENGINEERING, and BEFORE the draft, then went back to get his MASTERS his first offseason. This is a SMART guy who's seen a LOT of football at the highest levels and from many perspectives.

Dennison's not just Kubiaks wubby, but the flip side is that there's probably a reason he and Pariani have stayed with Kubiak virtually their whole careers.

Kubiak and Dennison don't get credit for great lines if you say they don't credit for Denver's bad line. Hypocrite. It's one or the other. If they aren't responsible for the offensive line the last two years, they weren't responsible for those either.

Now, since we know that the offensive coordinator and the offensive genius head coach ARE responsible for offensive line play, along with the line coach, as they are, then we can say they get credit for good lines and bad lines. Kubiak ****** up in keeping Barone and he ****** up dragging Dennison along with him. Sorry, thems the breaks.

Joel
01-28-2017, 01:40 PM
Hold on - you've said Kubiak isn't accountable for the line. So if he isn't, that means other people are. He had a bad OL coach that he kept. You can blame the players, sure, but the fact of that matter is that he had an average LT and a great center. The RT was shit, the guards were bad. However, I've seen worse lines with worse talent. Point being, even if you say 'well the lines were good elsewhere' that doesn't get him off the hook. Joelio Jones!!!!!!!!!
Why were they SO GOOD literally EVERYWHERE else but SO BAD in ONE place? The ONE place that JUST HAPPENED to ALREADY HAVE A LINE THAT HAD BEEN TERRIBLE FOR YEARS. Maybe look at the coaches and players who were there when the problem STARTED, not the ones who showed up at the end. "He" kept Barone the same way Fox did: Because Elway does the hiring and firing, and he kept Barone when he fired McDumbass, then kept him again when he fired Fox.

You're basically saying NON-correlation IS causation—even when violating temporality and causality itself! Did Japan bomb Pearl Harbor because we nuked Hiroshima?

King87
01-28-2017, 01:41 PM
This is one of the strangest conversations I've ever had.

I freely admit that Elway didn't invest in the offensive line sans two new starters in one offseason...or when he picked up Evan Mathis....or the free agent he signed from SD who started for us....Was he bringing in Walter Jones from 2004? No. But it's not like he did nothing. Did he do enough? Well, considering we got to two SB's and won one -with an all-time great defense that he built- I'd say his approach. I'd also say that when you sign someone who is supposed to be an offensive guru you expect them to do guru things. There were no guru things done with that offense.


Shoutout for the use of the word jalopy. That's a fun word.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-28-2017, 01:44 PM
I can't help but put some of the horribly bad missed assignments and penalties squarely on the shoulders of the coaching. Oh yeah, I also take issue with playing Sampo this last year, at all. It was obvious Jaded's verbal quips had more punch

King87
01-28-2017, 01:44 PM
Joel....thank you for giving me someone to argue with. Sometimes that's just how I heal.

Joel
01-28-2017, 01:50 PM
Kubiak and Dennison don't get credit for great lines if you say they don't credit for Denver's bad line. Hypocrite. It's one or the other. If they aren't responsible for the offensive line the last two years, they weren't responsible for those either.

Now, since we know that the offensive coordinator and the offensive genius head coach ARE responsible for offensive line play, along with the line coach, as they are, then we can say they get credit for good lines and bad lines. Kubiak ****** up in keeping Barone and he ****** up dragging Dennison along with him. Sorry, thems the breaks.
When Kubiak had a great Denver line during and just after the Elway years, his offensive line coach was Alex Gibbs, then Dennison.
When Kubiak had a great line in Houston, his offensive line coach was the one Elway just hired to REPLACE Barone.

When McDumbass had an awful line in Denver, his OL coach was Clancy Barone, because Dennison went back to OC in Houston (see: Line, great.)
When Fox had an awful line in Denver, his OL coach was Clancy Barone.
When Kubiak had an awful line in Denver, his OL coach was Clancy Barone.

Now Kubiak AND Dennison are gone, but so is Barone, replaced by their former Texans line coach, so hopefully things get a little better. Although their assistant line coach in Houston is doing better with Dallas' line than Benton has with Jacksonvilles.

Joel
01-28-2017, 02:08 PM
This is one of the strangest conversations I've ever had.

I freely admit that Elway didn't invest in the offensive line sans two new starters in one offseason
Bargain bin, as usual: We only got Okung because he negotiated $5M this year in exchange for a 4-year option at $10M each, an option you KNOW Elway will decline. We got Stephenson for a whopping $2M—and STILL overpaid, but that's what we paid in 2015 for...


...or when he picked up Evan Mathis....
A 35-year-old convalescent who was still sitting by the phone waiting for ANY call just TWO WEEKS BEFORE OPENING DAY. So Elway called, offered him $2M, and he limped through a season where he played so badly a ROOKIE 4TH ROUNDER replaced for half of it, INCLUDING THE PLAYOFFS AND SUPER BOWL.


or the free agent he signed from SD who started for us....
Yup: Vasquez, the best pass blocker we've had since Clady was healthy, and the ONE guy who was an All Pro lineman under Elway—so we RELEASED him right after the SB because $6M/yr was WAY too much for an All Pro: Schofield and Sampro were just as good for far less, right?


Was he bringing in Walter Jones from 2004? No. But it's not like he did nothing. Did he do enough? Well, considering we got to two SB's and won one -with an all-time great defense that he built- I'd say his approach. I'd also say that when you sign someone who is supposed to be an offensive guru you expect them to do guru things. There were no guru things done with that offense.
There most certainly were: When that line got Mannings foot torn all to Hell 4 games into the season yet we went 5-2—two of the wins against NE* and the best Bengals team Lewis has ever had—with a guy who'd thrown all of 30 passes in his 3 year CAREER, that was our QB guru HC. When that began sputtering and Manning came back after enough time to heal, then won 4 straight ending with a SB, that was our QB guru HC. When CJ averaged nearly 5 yds/att against Pitt and NE* in the playoffs DESPITE our line, and >4 yds/att in the SB against a GOOD Panthers D, that was our RB guru HC.

Turns out Kubiak's really good at things he's done a lot and well, and really bad at things he's NEVER done. I'm surprised that surprises anyone.


Shoutout for the use of the word jalopy. That's a fun word.
'Tis

King87
01-28-2017, 02:14 PM
Bargain bin, as usual: We only got Okung because he negotiated $5M this year in exchange for a 4-year option at $10M each, an option you KNOW Elway will decline. We got Stephenson for a whopping $2M—and STILL overpaid, but that's what we paid in 2015 for...


A 35-year-old convalescent who was still sitting by the phone waiting for ANY call just TWO WEEKS BEFORE OPENING DAY. So Elway called, offered him $2M, and he limped through a season where he played so badly a ROOKIE 4TH ROUNDER replaced for half of it, INCLUDING THE PLAYOFFS AND SUPER BOWL.


Yup: Vasquez, the best pass blocker we've had since Clady was healthy, and the ONE guy who was an All Pro lineman under Elway—so we RELEASED him right after the SB because $6M/yr was WAY too much for an All Pro: Schofield and Sampro were just as good for far less, right?


There most certainly were: When that line got Mannings foot torn all to Hell 4 games into the season yet we went 5-2—two of the wins against NE* and the best Bengals team Lewis has ever had—with a guy who'd thrown all of 30 passes in his 3 year CAREER, that was our QB guru HC. When that began sputtering and Manning came back after enough time to heal, then won 4 straight ending with a SB, that was our QB guru HC. When CJ averaged nearly 5 yds/att against Pitt and NE* in the playoffs DESPITE our line, and nearly over 4 yds/att in the SB against a GOOD Panthers D, that was our RB guru HC.

Turns out Kubiak's really good things he's done a lot and well, and really bad at things he's NEVER done. I'm surprised that surprises anyone.


'Tis

We got Okung, though. We got an average left tackle on a deal that is advantageous to us.

We got a RT. A horrible RT. A RT that is to football what rocks are to swimming.

Mathis was ranked highly against the run. That is half the function of a lineman. That was according to PFT, though. I don't know how much you value that source.

We released him right after the SB and built an ungodly defense that won the SB. I say that was a good call.

Manning was an old QB who got hurt. It does happen. However, when Manning came back it was his stability and keeping the defense honest that made the offense even moderately tolerable. That wasn't on Kubiak. I WILL give Kubiak the nod for putting Manning into the game against the Chargers. However, before you give too much credit to Kubiak about a RB who was already promising before GK got here note that the rest of the RBs we have didn't produce much. And I think the backs we have on the team have talent. So I wouldn't be too quick to herald him for that.

Maybe the guru HC isn't a guru at hiring and keeping offensive coaches then? Because that offense under him repeatedly got worse, and it all went to shit when CJ went out.

Joel
01-28-2017, 03:15 PM
We got Okung, though. We got an average left tackle on a deal that is advantageous to us.

We got a RT. A horrible RT. A RT that is to football what rocks are to swimming.

Mathis was ranked highly against the run. That is half the function of a lineman. That was according to PFT, though. I don't know how much you value that source.

We released him right after the SB and built an ungodly defense that won the SB. I say that was a good call.

Manning was an old QB who got hurt. It does happen. However, when Manning came back it was his stability and keeping the defense honest that made the offense even moderately tolerable. That wasn't on Kubiak. I WILL give Kubiak the nod for putting Manning into the game against the Chargers. However, before you give too much credit to Kubiak about a RB who was already promising before GK got here note that the rest of the RBs we have didn't produce much. And I think the backs we have on the team have talent. So I wouldn't be too quick to herald him for that.

Maybe the guru HC isn't a guru at hiring and keeping offensive coaches then? Because that offense under him repeatedly got worse, and it all went to shit when CJ went out.
"Repeatedly"? He was here all of TWO SEASONS, and I gotta think going from a first ballot HoF QB to a rookie and sophomore 7th rounder who had a combined NO pro snaps between them may have been a slight factor in our offenses decline. This offense has been going to shit the moment CJ gets hurt about as long as we've had CJ (i.e. TWICE as long as we had Kubiak and Dennison back.) Hillman and Ball SUCKED; notice how one never played a DOWN for Kubiak and the other was gone after he had 5 carries for 0 yds in the SB (but, y'know... at least he's not in prison. :tongue:) Booker looks promising though.... ;)

YES it was all about STABILITY last year, before, during and AFTER Mannings injury. That's the only way that jalopy was gonna make it to February with our line, rickety HoFer and a backup cum starter who'd only thrown 30 career passes in mop up duty. It wasn't ALL Wades D; Wades D didn't average 4.7 yds/att (even Hillman managed the 4.2 NFL average) nor post Oz' 86.4 passer rating with twice as many TDs as Ints (numbers he'd KILL for now, despite infinitely more starting experience and BETTER protection.) Wades D didn't average >5 yds/att in our first two playoff games, nor >4 in the SB. And, while Mannings other playoff numbers were pretty terrible (even against NE*,) Wades D wasn't the one who only threw a SINGLE Int in the ENTIRE POSTSEASON.

This year we didn't even know who our starting QB WAS until the final week of preseason, because we had too many great choices:

1) Raw rookie 1st rounder,
2) Sophomore 7th rounder whose ONLY pro snap was a kneel down,
3) Butt fumble.

We STILL had a winning season, despite facing SEVEN playoff teams (including BOTH SB teams) and two more that only lost their division on tiebreaks. How big a miracle did people expect Kubiak and Dennison to work in TWO years with FEW assets and HUGE liabilities? Better question:

How much better do you think the offense is going to get under Joseph and McCoy...?