John Elway Reboots Again

[Slick]

http://predominantlyorange.com/2017/01/16/john-elway-rebooting-denver-broncos-hurry/

Saw this over on Orange Mane. Interesting read.



The Beginning Of The End

The next week was a short week which Kubiak would miss while resting up after his health scare. According to a recent report from Mile High Huddle, Elway pushed hard for Paxton Lynch to start that game against the Chargers. Instead, an extremely limited Siemian struggled badly and the Broncos lost their second game in a row. This lead to a season long power struggle between Elway and Kubiak. Elway wanted his quarterback in the game as often as possible, and Kubiak wanted to play his guy Trevor Siemian. Kubiak also quickly reverted back to handling the play calling despite Elway’s wishes.

The rest is history as the Broncos limped to the finish line, finishing 9-7 and missing the playoffs for the first time in Elway’s tenure. Knowing big changes were coming to his staff, and knowing that Elway was going to bring in a legitimate offensive coordinator, Kubiak stepped down as head coach just a day after the final game of the season. News broke of this the morning of the game against the Raiders. For the week leading up to the Raiders game, Kubiak had been steadfast in his plan to play both Trevor Siemian and Paxton Lynch in the meaningless game. This never happened as Trevor Siemian finished out the game, perhaps his last start as a Bronco barring injury. This didn’t sit well with Elway.

[Hawgdriver]

Interesting read, but there aren't any sources to his speculation. Mile High Huddle has no sources either (the link in the Kriz article mentions nothing about Elway wanting Lynch to start). As far as I can tell, this line:


This lead to a season long power struggle between Elway and Kubiak.

is fabricated.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Interesting read, but there aren't any sources to his speculation. Mile High Huddle has no sources either (the link in the Kriz article mentions nothing about Elway wanting Lynch to start). As far as I can tell, this line:



is fabricated.

This is a fine example of how sloppy and irresponsible journalism has become in many respects.

[Buff]

Did Cugel write that?

[ ] Article was interesting
[X] Article excessively fellates JMFE

[Davii]

Did Cugel write that?

[ ] Article was interesting
[X] Article excessively fellates JMFE

:lol: :pound:

[Cugel]

Interesting read, but there aren't any sources to his speculation. Mile High Huddle has no sources either (the link in the Kriz article mentions nothing about Elway wanting Lynch to start). As far as I can tell, this line:

This lead to a season long power struggle between Elway and Kubiak.

is fabricated.

Just because YOU are ignorant of what was going on behind the scenes doesn't mean everybody else in the world is equally clueless.

Everything in that article is exactly what multiple inside sources have been leaking for weeks now. All of Kubiak's offensive coaches, starting with OC Rick Dennison are gone, and on their way out of town they have been talking candidly with friends and friendly reporters they have a relationship with, and telling them the inside story.

Of course there are no "quoted sources." Do you expect NFL coaches to start a public feud with John Elway? You do that once and the next GM or Owner thinking of hiring you might just think twice. "If it doesn't work out here, and I have to get rid of this guy in a couple of years, will he and his assistants be publicly bad mouthing me as they exit the door? If they did it to John Elway they could do it here. I don't like guys who are disloyal to the guy who hired them and trash talk about their employer. So, I won't hire that guy. "

Like in government and business in general, they leak. "Anonymous sources close to the Broncos" means former OC Rick Dennison and his assistants that Elway fired. Troy Renk, Cecil Lammey and other Broncos insiders have been reporting the same exact story for the last week.

This is not something wildly new, even if it seems new to YOU because you haven't been listening to talk radio closely.

From their point of view Elway undermined Gary, and tried to interfere with his coaching decisions, which contributed to the stress he was under, which led him to resign at the end of the season rather than fire a bunch of his offensive coaches. They blame Elway, not themselves and not Gary, for Gary's leaving and the failure of the season.

Well, Gary insisted on doing things his way, and his way failed in 2016. The offense was horrible, and the team failed to make the playoffs for the first time in 7 seasons.

Does anybody seriously dispute that Rick Dennison and OL coach Clancey Barone for instance desperately needed to be fired? Kubiak was too loyal to his coaches. Those guys needed to leave town immediately.

It wasn't just a blind purge either: They didn't fire Eric Studesville, RB coach, or Luke Richesson - Strength and Conditioning coach.

They fired the assistants who decided along with Kubiak not to start Paxton Lynch in the Raiders game, despite the fact that it was a meaningless game after the Broncos had been eliminated. Instead, in defiance of Elway, Kubiak and his coaches played an injured Siemian the entire game - even after the Broncos were leading 24-0.

"That did not sit well with Elway" indeed. And there's no reason why it should. What difference does "we wanted to win the game" make when you're already eliminated? It's all about the next season at that point and evaluating who they are going to keep and who they are going to let go.

[Cugel]

This is a fine example of how sloppy and irresponsible journalism has become in many respects.

So sorry reality isn't the rosy red picture it looks from the outside. There were conflicts between the coaching staff and management. This wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last. Just because you can't figure this stuff out or arent' paying attention doesn't mean it isn't true.

Lots of insiders are saying exactly the same thing: Big Al and Brandon Stokely are two more for instance.

Just listen to the damn radio podcast and you'll hear hours of discussions of all these topics. Everything in that article is simply taken for granted as true by now.

Do try and catch up. Here's the link to the Fan Podcasts. (http://1043thefan.com/podcasts/) Pick almost any one and they are talking ad nauseam about it.

[Hawgdriver]

Just because YOU are ignorant of what was going on behind the scenes doesn't mean everybody else in the world is equally clueless.

Everything in that article is exactly what multiple inside sources have been leaking for weeks now. All of Kubiak's offensive coaches, starting with OC Rick Dennison are gone, and on their way out of town they have been talking candidly with friends and friendly reporters they have a relationship with, and telling them the inside story.

Of course there are no "quoted sources." Do you expect NFL coaches to start a public feud with John Elway? You do that once and the next GM or Owner thinking of hiring you might just think twice. "If it doesn't work out here, and I have to get rid of this guy in a couple of years, will he and his assistants be publicly bad mouthing me as they exit the door? If they did it to John Elway they could do it here. I don't like guys who are disloyal to the guy who hired them and trash talk about their employer. So, I won't hire that guy. "

Like in government and business in general, they leak. "Anonymous sources close to the Broncos" means former OC Rick Dennison and his assistants that Elway fired. Troy Renk, Cecil Lammey and other Broncos insiders have been reporting the same exact story for the last week.

This is not something wildly new, even if it seems new to YOU because you haven't been listening to talk radio closely.

From their point of view Elway undermined Gary, and tried to interfere with his coaching decisions, which contributed to the stress he was under, which led him to resign at the end of the season rather than fire a bunch of his offensive coaches. They blame Elway, not themselves and not Gary, for Gary's leaving and the failure of the season.

Well, Gary insisted on doing things his way, and his way failed in 2016. The offense was horrible, and the team failed to make the playoffs for the first time in 7 seasons.

Does anybody seriously dispute that Rick Dennison and OL coach Clancey Barone for instance desperately needed to be fired? Kubiak was too loyal to his coaches. Those guys needed to leave town immediately.

It wasn't just a blind purge either: They didn't fire Eric Studesville, RB coach, or Luke Richesson - Strength and Conditioning coach.

They fired the assistants who decided along with Kubiak not to start Paxton Lynch in the Raiders game, despite the fact that it was a meaningless game after the Broncos had been eliminated. Instead, in defiance of Elway, Kubiak and his coaches played an injured Siemian the entire game - even after the Broncos were leading 24-0.

"That did not sit well with Elway" indeed. And there's no reason why it should. What difference does "we wanted to win the game" make when you're already eliminated? It's all about the next season at that point and evaluating who they are going to keep and who they are going to let go.

You are credulous.

There was no reporting in Mile High Huddle regarding a power struggle between Elway and Kubiak. The Kriz article cites Mile High Huddle as its source for this fictional friction. Outside of pointing to MHH (which has no substance germane to his point), Kriz uses one independent "source" in his entire article, and it's only tangentially related to the idea of a "season long power struggle."

I'm not sure why you are attacking me instead of defending Kriz's journalism. If you want to refute my claim that Kriz's line about a season long power struggle is fabricated, explain how Kriz presented evidence that supports such a statement--show that Kriz didn't fabricate it.

This particular example goes beyond the issue of anonymous sources, although I reserve the right to be skeptical of any anonymous source. If you are using anonymous sources, you need to first develop a reputation for accuracy because the reporter is essentially the source.

[Timmy!]

Did Cugel write that?

[ ] Article was interesting
[X] Article excessively fellates JMFE

Post of the year candidate.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

So sorry reality isn't the rosy red picture it looks from the outside. There were conflicts between the coaching staff and management. This wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last. Just because you can't figure this stuff out or arent' paying attention doesn't mean it isn't true.

Lots of insiders are saying exactly the same thing: Big Al and Brandon Stokely are two more for instance.

Just listen to the damn radio podcast and you'll hear hours of discussions of all these topics. Everything in that article is simply taken for granted as true by now.

Do try and catch up. Here's the link to the Fan Podcasts. (http://1043thefan.com/podcasts/) Pick almost any one and they are talking ad nauseam about it.

Insulting my intelligence because I don't like an article you posted is unnecessary.

My opinion differs from you. That doesn't mean you need to result to condescending insults. That happens too much as of late here.

[Northman]

J

Of course there are no "quoted sources.

Should of stopped there because that was exactly what he was talking about.

[dogfish]

Insulting my intelligence because I don't like an article you posted is unnecessary.

My opinion differs from you. That doesn't mean you need to result to condescending insults. That happens too much as of late here.

you just need to listen to more talk radio so you can be a savvy broncos insider like cug. . .

[sneakers]

what will he do now?

[sneakers]

"Another rumor is floating around that Phillip Rivers has privately requested a trade after the team announced they were moving to L.A. Supposedly, Rivers would like to be reunited with McCoy in Denver."


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Northman]

Lol

[Cugel]

Insulting my intelligence because I don't like an article you posted is unnecessary.

My opinion differs from you. That doesn't mean you need to result to condescending insults. That happens too much as of late here.

I'm not insulting your intelligence. I have zero idea about your intelligence, and I couldn't care less. But, I've just spent about 2 weeks listening to 104.3 the Fan radio and they are ALL saying the same thing. And if you listened you would know it too.

All that happened is that Rick Dennison and the other offensive coaches were bad-mouthing Paxton Lynch as they left town. They talked "off the record" about his supposedly poor work effort and film study habits.

The things I said are blindingly obvious stuff to people who are paying attention to what the sports writers and radio guys are saying, all based on having "off the record" talks with former Broncos coaches.

What happened is that Kubiak and Dennison became progressively less and less enthusiastic about Lynch - to the point that they refused to even play him in a meaningless last game of the season, when they were up by 24-0 against the awesome Connor Cook, and a Raiders team that was psychologically devastated by the loss of Derek Carr.

Meanwhile Elway and the personnel people became more and more unhappy about the lack of development of Lynch during the season. They invested a ton in this guy and want to know why he's not being given a chance.

Some reports are that Elway lobbied hard to have Lynch named the starter during the season, after the second loss to KC.

It's now definite, confirmed from multiple sources that there was a disconnect inside Dove Valley between Elway and the personnel people and Kubiak and his assistant coaches.

And those "sources" are the fired assistant coaches. They just don't want to go on the record attacking Elway because that would be a bad career move. You don't advantage your career in the NFL by insulting the powers that be. Even if you are right.

Especially if you are right. It's taken as a sign that you have issues following the chain of command, like a loud-mouthed colonel who keeps pointing out what an idiot the commanding general is. Well, maybe the general IS an idiot, but is there any advantage in saying so publicly?

[Cugel]

"Another rumor is floating around that Phillip Rivers has privately requested a trade after the team announced they were moving to L.A. Supposedly, Rivers would like to be reunited with McCoy in Denver."

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Laugh all you want. It's now obvious that the Chargers are not trading Rivers because they believe they "missed it by THAT much". They are delusional of course.

From the outside it's easy to see that the Chargers are stuck being the worst team in a division with two 12-4 teams that are only getting better with good young players, and the defending SB champions, still with most of their SB roster intact.

They could win 3 more games this year and still probably finish third in the division. Maybe 2nd.

They already have Rivers and they are STILL losers. And they are going to continue to finish behind the Chiefs and Raiders for the foreseeable future.

So, it makes a ton of sense for them to blow it all up - trade Rivers for a 1st round pick, select Deshaun Watson with their pick, maybe pick up a stud like Christian McCaffrey with the extra 1st rounder, and by the time they are ready to move to the new 80,000 seat mega-stadium in L.A. they will have a developed QB and a roster full of veteran stars they can afford because they'd be paying their QB less than $2 M a year instead of $20M.

In short, the formula that worked for the Seahawks and Broncos to win SBs.

They won't do it of course, but they should. They just think they are much better than they are. Philip Rivers wins at least 3 games a year they should lose. He's a top 5 QB and that masks how bad the rest of their team really is.

[BroncoJoe]

Cugel - do you realize that the vaunted 104.3 The Fan's hosts primarily speak in opinions?

[dogfish]

Cugel - do you realize that the vaunted 104.3 The Fan's hosts primarily speak in opinions?

bullshit! the reliability of cugel's sources is ironclad. . . :coffee:

[CoachChaz]

AS it might pain me to defend Cugel, I have to say that my friend from another NFL organization said he heard a similar rumor. I blew it off at the time, but after reading this thread, it makes more sense. In a recent encounter with him right after the regular season ended, he did tell me during a conversation... "I wasnt a fan of Lynch during scouting and I've heard some former coaches weren't a fan of how he was coming along."

He didnt name names, so all I could do is take it for what it's worth. We'll all probably find out soon enough, but his comment suddenly makes more sense. maybe it's legit...maybe it's being butt hurt. Who knows.

[Hawgdriver]

AS it might pain me to defend Cugel, I have to say that my friend from another NFL organization said he heard a similar rumor. I blew it off at the time, but after reading this thread, it makes more sense. In a recent encounter with him right after the regular season ended, he did tell me during a conversation... "I wasnt a fan of Lynch during scouting and I've heard some former coaches weren't a fan of how he was coming along."

He didnt name names, so all I could do is take it for what it's worth. We'll all probably find out soon enough, but his comment suddenly makes more sense. maybe it's legit...maybe it's being butt hurt. Who knows.

Interesting.

It's discouraging, if true, that Elway would refuse to believe his coaches' assessments that Lynch was underprepared for the role of NFL starter during the playoff chase. Even more discouraging is the notion that Lynch was not addressing his deficiencies like a pro.

[Northman]

Interesting.

It's discouraging, if true, that Elway would refuse to believe his coaches' assessments that Lynch was underprepared for the role of NFL starter during the playoff chase. Even more discouraging is the notion that Lynch was not addressing his deficiencies like a pro.

Honestly i doubt that there is any truth to it. For starters, Lynch played a whole 2 games last year and i find it hard to believe any team let alone the Broncos would cut loose a first round QB after only 2 games. I mean, Tebow got a lot more than that so unless John thinks Tebow is better than Lynch i just dont see Lynch going anywhere.

[Cugel]

Cugel - do you realize that the vaunted 104.3 The Fan's hosts primarily speak in opinions?

Sometimes. But far more often those "opinions" are simply repeating the voices of insiders they talk to. It's a small incestuous world in the NFL and all the coaches, former coaches, GMs and former GMs, players and former players, scouts and personnel guys all know each other and talk to each other. Any time anything happens, they all start gossiping. It's one of the most exclusive clubs in the world and the members are all enviously watching each other and talking about each other.

To coach or play at this level requires such intense focus they are all obsessed by football. It's literally all many of them ever think about or care about. It's their world.

And the beat writers who cover the Broncos exclusively get to know the coaches and players pretty well. They are out at Dove Valley every day watching practices and talking with everyone. They have friends among the personnel guys and coaches on various teams. In some cases they are former players or personnel guys themselves. The local sports talk show guys all talk to each other and interview each other.

Everything leaks and everybody eventually knows everybody else's business. Guys get fired. Then they trash talk.

Quite frankly, in this case everybody's talking and nobody can really say whether Kubiak or Elway was right. But, when the stories conflict like they do here we can at least be sure there was a disconnect and two different camps with widely different views of how to do things.

[Cugel]

Interesting.

It's discouraging, if true, that Elway would refuse to believe his coaches' assessments that Lynch was underprepared for the role of NFL starter during the playoff chase. Even more discouraging is the notion that Lynch was not addressing his deficiencies like a pro.

Whoa there! Who's to say that Kubiak was right? Some guys take longer to learn how to play in the NFL than others. It's not as if there's a huge number of elite QB talent just waiting to come to play for any team too. There are 32 teams but not 32 really good QBs in the league. There's always a shortage.

So, teams have to take guys who have some athletic potential and have demonstrated some attributes that might make them successful in the NFL, but need development in some areas. Most scouts said that Paxton Lynch was "very raw" and not terribly prepared to start in the NFL.

So, Elway drafts him as his "QB of the future", but that future depends in large part on the coaches teaching him and getting him ready.

Maybe Lynch is going to be a bust. There's only so much the coaches can do. He has to seize his chances. But, he's going to get multiple chances to prove himself. And Elway and the new coaching staff are going to try their best to get him ready to start in this league.

Kubiak's trouble is that he was too focused on the next game. Elway as GM took the long term view that "we spent thousands of man hours scouting and evaluating these players and we want believe they have the ability to succeed and we want that to be a focus of the coaching staff." He knows that without an elite starting QB they have about zero chance to get to another SB.

I'm by no means ready to write off Paxton Lynch because he struggled his first year or needs to learn how to prepare to play in this league. Nor should we be convinced that if Kubiak didn't like Lynch or felt frustrated with his slow development that they should give up on him.

They have nobody better for the long term. It's simply wildly unlikely that Trevor Siemian will ever turn into an elite QB. Will Lynch? Nobody knows yet. He has the potential, but between potential and actuality there's a gaping chasm.

[Cugel]

Originally Posted by CoachChaz View Post
AS it might pain me to defend Cugel, I have to say that my friend from another NFL organization said he heard a similar rumor. I blew it off at the time, but after reading this thread, it makes more sense. In a recent encounter with him right after the regular season ended, he did tell me during a conversation... "I wasnt a fan of Lynch during scouting and I've heard some former coaches weren't a fan of how he was coming along."

He didnt name names, so all I could do is take it for what it's worth. We'll all probably find out soon enough, but his comment suddenly makes more sense. maybe it's legit...maybe it's being butt hurt. Who knows.

Well, guys, isn't this a perfect example of exactly what I've been talking about? CoachChaz knows a guy who works for an NFL organization. And the guy talks to his friend. They gossip. And the word gets around. That's exactly how these stories spread. And there's usually some truth to it, at least from one point of view within an organization.

We can see exactly how this plays out in the stories spread about Wade Phillips:


The Los Angeles Rams' hire of Wade Phillips as defensive coordinator was met with a lot of acclaim. That was understandable, as Phillips' defense led the Broncos to a Super Bowl victory a year ago. Many criticized the Broncos for allowing Phillips to leave with the transition to Vance Joseph. Sources with the Broncos, however, say that Phillips divided the locker room and pitted the defense against the offense. The divided locker room was toxic at the end of the season, and that was why the Broncos felt they would be better off to have Phillips depart. Sources in Houston say that Phillips stirred up some similar problems in the Texans' locker room during the 2013 season, but not to the same extent as in Denver last season. (http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2017/1/23/14361482/la-rams-dc-wade-phillips-walter-football-lies-little-white-lies-pretty-little-liars)

Now personally, I don't believe this is true. I have trouble believing Wade would undermine his friend Kubiak by stirring up conflicts. But we can trace how this story started and people can choose who they want to believe.

The story originated from Walter Football, the draft site. According to Cecil Lammey, the guy who runs it is a former scout who has close ties to the Houston Texans organization. So, when Wade leaves Denver, he talks to some friend inside the Texans organization and that guy tells him "yeah, Wade caused problems and dissension here too, and that's why they weren't sad to see him move. Looks like it was even worse in Denver."

So, the Walter Football guy writes a story, Wade takes offense and all hell breaks loose.

Well, that's one point of view and potentially sour grapes. But, if the rumors keep swirling about a guy, maybe at the core, there's some truth to it?

From my perspective, I could see how guys in an organization might criticize Wade if they felt he didn't do enough to tamp down on any friction between the offense and his defense. And their perspective was that Wade "encouraged" his players or assistant coaches to take a negative attitude to how the offense was performing.

Well, the offense struggled terribly this past season. And as Aquib Talib showed beyond dispute, the defensive players resented it strongly that they were carrying the load alone.

Wade's perspective was that this was "all lies" and that he never encouraged any dissension. Maybe he's right too. But, clearly there were some disagreements and conflicts within the ranks at Dove Valley.

They didn't renew Wade's contract. And then when the local beat writers like Broncos insider Mike Klis hear that "the view inside Dove Valley of Wade was not the same as the public view of him." Inside there were criticisms, outside there was praise and people can't figure out how this could all go so wrong so quickly after winning a SB.

Why can't they get along? Well, these are powerful egos. And in real life, not in the fantasy life of the fans view of the NFL, men with powerful egos often clash. And when they do, one side will force the other out.

That appears to be something of what happened in Wade's case.

[The Glue Factory]

I'm by no means ready to write off Paxton Lynch because he struggled his first year or needs to learn how to prepare to play in this league.

I don't think Hawg was calling Lynch a bust as much as saying Lynch seems to be resting on his laurels as a 1st round pick. It would be nice to see him more hungry to earn his keep, IF reports about his work ethic are true.

[Cugel]

I don't think Hawg was calling Lynch a bust as much as saying Lynch seems to be resting on his laurels as a 1st round pick. It would be nice to see him more hungry to earn his keep, IF reports about his work ethic are true.

The word now is that Elway and Joseph are planning on "giving Lynch every chance to win the starting job in training camp." If he doesn't emerge as the starter this season, then look for Elway to go back to the draft NEXT year and take another "franchise QB". You can only ride that "1st round status" for so long before the team gives up on you.

In this case that time is likely to be longer, as John Elway is running this team and he believes in Lynch. But, that time is strictly limited and if Lynch doesn't get moving and learn how to play in this league he'll be just another 1st round QB bust - like so many before (Vince Young, JaWalrus Russell, Mark Sanchez, come on down!")

[Hawgdriver]

I'm surprised Elway wants to give the reins to what you describe through your rumors as a slacker QB.

[NCBronco]

So, it makes a ton of sense for them to blow it all up - trade Rivers for a 1st round pick, select Deshaun Watson with their pick, maybe pick up a stud like Christian McCaffrey with the extra 1st rounder, and by the time they are ready to move to the new 80,000 seat mega-stadium in L.A. they will have a developed QB and a roster full of veteran stars they can afford because they'd be paying their QB less than $2 M a year instead of $20M.



"An' what that means, I don't know
A dream too tired to come true
Left a rebel without a clue
And I'm searching for somethin' to do
And if it's just a game
Then we'll hold hands just the same
So what, we're bleeding but we ain't cut
And I could purge my soul perhaps
For the imminent collapse
Oh yeah, I'll tell you what we could do
You be me for a while
I'll be you......"

-The Replacements, "I'll Be You"

[Freyaka]

I'm not insulting your intelligence. I have zero idea about your intelligence, and I couldn't care less. But, I've just spent about 2 weeks listening to 104.3 the Fan radio and they are ALL saying the same thing. And if you listened you would know it too.

Oh....sorry, didn't you were an expert on sports talk radio rumor mongering...wow how could we all be so stupid. CLEARLY we were wrong, he's a talk radio expert how can we ever hope to compete with that wisdom and knowledge...

Most of them take weak rumors or make crap up to have something to talk about. There are ZERO credible sources of information to substantiate any of these...Talk to me when someone who is actually credible is involved.

Talk radio is for all intents and purposes the equivalent of a bunch of elderly church ladies sharing the latest juicy gossip..... Sure, they might have some true info, but it's mixed between a lot of unsubstantiated crap that they've heard and you have to sift through said crap to get the truth.