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Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2017, 10:32 PM
Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 5m

Paradis had right hip operated on. Will have left hip done soon. Ultimate tough guy. I Have full confidence in his recovery @DenverChannel

Troy Renck Retweeted
Matt Paradis ‏@two_dice 3h

Hey #Broncoscountry surgery went well looking forward to attacking the rehab process and getting back out there!!

Denver Native (Carol)
01-11-2017, 10:39 PM
Broncos center Matt Paradis underwent arthroscopic surgery on his right hip Tuesday and is doing well and recovering in Vail, his agent Brian McLaughlin told The Denver Post. In approximately three weeks, Paradis is expected to return to Vail to undergo the same procedure on his left hip.

“Hey #Broncoscountry surgery went well looking forward to attacking the rehab process and getting back out there!!” Paradis tweeted Wednesday evening.

Dr. Marc Philippon of The Steadman Clinic is performing both surgeries on Paradis.

“He believes Matt will come back as a much better athlete — more agile, more explosive and really be able to utilize his hips going forward,” McLaughlin said. “He really thought it was amazing that Matt had the type of year he had. He knew Matt was a good player, but I don’t think he knew fully the kind of season he had with his hips in those conditions.”

McLaughlin said Paradis’ recovery will be lengthy, but that he’s expected to stay in Colorado for the duration and is aiming for a full return by the start of the regular season.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/11/matt-paradis-hip-surgery/

VonDoom
01-12-2017, 04:54 PM
Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 2m2 minutes ago

Broncos signed WR Mekale McKay (@1_McKay_2) to a futures contract

Cugel
01-12-2017, 05:00 PM
Paradis is a bright light in the dark cave of Broncos crap OL. They will keep him, Okung and Max Garcia and try and develop them. They will also keep Michael Schofield because he's cheap, although he won't start barring injury.

That's not encouraging, but there's very little help apparently in this year's draft, and any decent FA OL will be hideously expensive. They may still try and land a RT FA, but mostly, any improvement is going to have to come from improved coaching the players they already have. Because this is not a team where you can blow it up and rebuild every year and expect success.

And success, (as in going to the SB) is what is expected around here.

NightTerror218
01-13-2017, 12:25 AM
Paradis is a bright light in the dark cave of Broncos crap OL. They will keep him, Okung and Max Garcia and try and develop them. They will also keep Michael Schofield because he's cheap, although he won't start barring injury.

That's not encouraging, but there's very little help apparently in this year's draft, and any decent FA OL will be hideously expensive. They may still try and land a RT FA, but mostly, any improvement is going to have to come from improved coaching the players they already have. Because this is not a team where you can blow it up and rebuild every year and expect success.

And success, (as in going to the SB) is what is expected around here.

FA is pretty loaded with quality starters. No big name all pro LT. But solid players. I expect a new tackle in FA.

dogfish
01-13-2017, 01:38 AM
FA is pretty loaded with quality starters. No big name all pro LT. But solid players. I expect a new tackle in FA.

other than possibly getting a couple good years out of whitworth as a rental, i'm just not sure how much we can upgrade OT through FA this year. . . guard is a different story-- any one of kevin zeitler, chance warmack or ron leary would be a huge improvement at either OG spot. . . TJ lang's probably got a couple solid years left in him as well. . . as much as i hate it, i'm afraid we'll most likely be forced into trying to salvage either okung or stephenson-- at least for another year. . . i trust ty sombrero even less at tackle than i do those stiffs, and you have to have somebody as a swing tackle. . .

King87
01-13-2017, 03:36 AM
other than possibly getting a couple good years out of whitworth as a rental, i'm just not sure how much we can upgrade OT through FA this year. . . guard is a different story-- any one of kevin zeitler, chance warmack or ron leary would be a huge improvement at either OG spot. . . TJ lang's probably got a couple solid years left in him as well. . . as much as i hate it, i'm afraid we'll most likely be forced into trying to salvage either okung or stephenson-- at least for another year. . . i trust ty sombrero even less at tackle than i do those stiffs, and you have to have somebody as a swing tackle. . .

Okung had an average season by the rankings. When he's bad he's legendarily bad, though.

Whitworth was alright at the end of the year last year from what I heard. Zeitler is a monster. I'll call them and let them know that we love Cincy transplants.

NightTerror218
01-13-2017, 12:59 PM
other than possibly getting a couple good years out of whitworth as a rental, i'm just not sure how much we can upgrade OT through FA this year. . . guard is a different story-- any one of kevin zeitler, chance warmack or ron leary would be a huge improvement at either OG spot. . . TJ lang's probably got a couple solid years left in him as well. . . as much as i hate it, i'm afraid we'll most likely be forced into trying to salvage either okung or stephenson-- at least for another year. . . i trust ty sombrero even less at tackle than i do those stiffs, and you have to have somebody as a swing tackle. . .

Tj lang is 29 i think. So very much has time left. But a lot of good guards. If we have a really good guard next to okung it may work out for him on restructured contract. But stephenson has to go.

NightTerror218
01-13-2017, 10:49 PM
other than possibly getting a couple good years out of whitworth as a rental, i'm just not sure how much we can upgrade OT through FA this year. . . guard is a different story-- any one of kevin zeitler, chance warmack or ron leary would be a huge improvement at either OG spot. . . TJ lang's probably got a couple solid years left in him as well. . . as much as i hate it, i'm afraid we'll most likely be forced into trying to salvage either okung or stephenson-- at least for another year. . . i trust ty sombrero even less at tackle than i do those stiffs, and you have to have somebody as a swing tackle. . .

You cant get worse than Stephenson.

dogfish
01-14-2017, 01:37 AM
You cant get worse than Stephenson.

you don't remember the first KC game? when they benched him for sambrailo, who was so much worse that they had to bring stephenson back in after a couple of drives?

Hawgdriver
01-14-2017, 03:25 AM
you don't remember the first KC game? when they benched him for sambrailo, who was so much worse that they had to bring stephenson back in after a couple of drives?

He probably assumed you meant "among NFL linemen" which Sambrailo was not. He was a human T-Rex in a Broncos kit who should not have been allowed near an NFL snap by that point. Maybe they figured if Paradis didn't need hips, Sambrailo didn't need arms?

If he's injured, I hope he recovers and gives some depth next year. Nothing against the guy.

NightTerror218
01-14-2017, 06:53 PM
you don't remember the first KC game? when they benched him for sambrailo, who was so much worse that they had to bring stephenson back in after a couple of drives?

Sombrailo must be cut but neither should start. Howevwr pff had stephenson rated as worst RT and sambrilo dont make list.

NightTerror218
01-14-2017, 06:57 PM
Jeff davidson added as OL coach per broncos twitter

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-14-2017, 09:49 PM
He probably assumed you meant "among NFL linemen" which Sambrailo was not. He was a human T-Rex in a Broncos kit who should not have been allowed near an NFL snap by that point. Maybe they figured if Paradis didn't need hips, Sambrailo didn't need arms?

If he's injured, I hope he recovers and gives some depth next year. Nothing against the guy.

He hasn't been the same since Hillman shoved him in the back. I hope he doesn't have a degenerative condition in his shoulder

Rick
01-14-2017, 10:01 PM
No way Ty will ever be strong enough to play RT in a power scheme, he will have to add some strength and get much better at pass protection to play LT.

Jaded
01-14-2017, 10:44 PM
Move Sampro to C, Paradis played C from a wheelchair.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-15-2017, 12:22 PM
Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 3h

Max Garcia, Matt Paradis, Trevor Siemian to get nice performance bonuses from NFL for their combo of low salary/high play time. #9sports

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 3h

R. Okung has $1M option due March 9. If exercised $11M of $12.5M (not $12.7) in 2017 and $9.5M of $11M in 2018 fully guar. Redo? #9sports

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 3h

McCoy/Davidson means shift from zone to power run scheme says @JakeDMarsing. Okung best road grader but he must reduce $12.7M. #9sports

VonDoom
01-15-2017, 02:02 PM
Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet 20m20 minutes ago

Was asked about #Cowboys’ plans for Tony Romo in 2017. No secret, #Broncos are his No. 1 spot. I’m told DEN is not inclined to trade for him

MOtorboat
01-15-2017, 06:41 PM
Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet 20m20 minutes ago

Was asked about #Cowboys’ plans for Tony Romo in 2017. No secret, #Broncos are his No. 1 spot. I’m told DEN is not inclined to trade for him

Because he's getting cut.

:balloons:

Jaded
01-15-2017, 09:15 PM
Because he's getting cut.

:balloons:

Ya know who else is getting cut? :eyebrows:

HORSEPOWER 56
01-15-2017, 09:46 PM
Move Sampro to C, Paradis played C from a wheelchair.

I think Sampro is about done. He hasn't, and might not ever, recover from his shoulder injury. It's pathetic to watch him try to play with one arm. It's been a year and a half. I don't know if he'll ever be 100%.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-15-2017, 10:00 PM
Ya know who else is getting cut? :eyebrows:

A snitch?

Jaded
01-15-2017, 10:26 PM
A snitch?

They sleep with fishes.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-15-2017, 11:16 PM
The Dallas Cowboys' "No. 1 priority this offseason" is going to be trading Tony Romo, according to Ian Rapoport of the NFL Network, however, that may not be as easy as originally thought.

With the emergence of Dak Prescott this season, speculation began on where Romo would play next season, if he decides to play at all.

In November, Rapoport reported that if Romo does not retire, his top choice would be a trade to the Denver Broncos. However, that now looks like it won't happen.

"It's no secret, his No. 1 spot would be the Denver Broncos," Rapoport said Sunday on the NFL Network. "But from what I understand, that is not something the Broncos would be inclined to do."

Romo still has three years and $54 million left on his contract. He is also scheduled to take up $24-25 million of space against the salary cap in each of those seasons. Any team that does trade for Romo would almost certainly want to renegotiate his contract.

According to the report, the Cowboys would prefer to trade Romo to a championship-caliber team.

"They are going to want to take care of him and make sure to send him to somewhere that can compete for championships" Rapoport said.

However, that is seemingly more difficult without the Broncos on the table. Other teams mentioned as possibilities were the Buffalo Bills, the Chicago Bears, and the Houston Texans.

Rapoport also noted that retirement "is still a possibility" and that Romo does not want to be a backup on the Cowboys.

If Romo can't play for the Broncos next season, it would seem that the chances we never see Romo play again have just gone up.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-tony-romo-still-wants-190146859.html

tripp
01-15-2017, 11:25 PM
Romo isn't the answer in Denver. Better off developing our two young QB's, then wasting the time on Romo. Couple of wins away from the playoffs with Siemian. We'll be fine, just need to fix the O-line and some help with Run D.

Jaded
01-16-2017, 12:10 AM
The Cowballs wanna take care of Romo by trading him to a contender? How bout you just cut him and let Romo and a contending team worry about taking care of Romo?

Nobody is taking that contract and nobody is trading a valuable pick for a 38-year-old QB that is made of glass.

Romo will have to REALLY want to play for Denver to make Denver want to go that direction.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-16-2017, 01:05 AM
The Cowballs wanna take care of Romo by trading him to a contender? How bout you just cut him and let Romo and a contending team worry about taking care of Romo?

Nobody is taking that contract and nobody is trading a valuable pick for a 38-year-old QB that is made of glass.

Romo will have to REALLY want to play for Denver to make Denver want to go that direction.

No really, they're just thinking of Tony...

underrated29
01-16-2017, 01:43 AM
I think Sampro is about done. He hasn't, and might not ever, recover from his shoulder injury. It's pathetic to watch him try to play with one arm. It's been a year and a half. I don't know if he'll ever be 100%.



Yes and no. I had the same surgery a year before he did and I am still not back. Another player on my team, a 19 year old kid (who is awesome btw) had the same suregery and he said it took him 3 years. I am encroaching on 3 years. We are not pros and dont have people looking after us 24/7 like tysam does. I am inclined to let him get back into it. His demeanor is nasty. Which we need.

Jaded
01-16-2017, 02:34 AM
A Chijuajua has a nasty demeanor.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-16-2017, 02:54 AM
Yes and no. I had the same surgery a year before he did and I am still not back. Another player on my team, a 19 year old kid (who is awesome btw) had the same suregery and he said it took him 3 years. I am encroaching on 3 years. We are not pros and dont have people looking after us 24/7 like tysam does. I am inclined to let him get back into it. His demeanor is nasty. Which we need.

Is his demeanor nasty enough to wait years for him to recover? After watching him get repeatedly beaten like a drum because he had no power and poor movement in his right arm, I doubt he's anywhere near returning at full strength. On top of that, he wasn't any more than average before his injury. I know the injury to Clady rushed him into service at LT which wasn't his natural position, but he was average as a run blocker and below average in pass protection before the injury. It's not like he was Joe Thomas before he was hurt and worth waiting for.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-16-2017, 01:12 PM
Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 3m

#Broncos CB @AqibTalib21 and OLB @Millerlite40 were named to the PFWA's 2016 All-NFL team. Third consecutive selection for Miller.

Joel
01-17-2017, 07:54 PM
Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 3h

R. Okung has $1M option due March 9. If exercised $11M of $12.5M (not $12.7) in 2017 and $9.5M of $11M in 2018 fully guar. Redo? #9sports

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 3h

McCoy/Davidson means shift from zone to power run scheme says @JakeDMarsing. Okung best road grader but he must reduce $12.7M. #9sports
This is why I quit expecting Okung back when he was still playing like crap at midseason (let alone seasons end:) John Elway doesn't pay top dollar for sub-backup production (and thank God for that.) If Okung wants to re-do the contract (and remember, he's his own agent,) great, but I can't imagine going on the hook for >$10M/yr the next TWO years for Okungs awful level of play THIS year: If we MUST have a garbage blindside OT, we can get it for ~1/5 as much cap space.

Jaded
01-17-2017, 09:32 PM
I'd welcome Okung back at a lower salary, you gotta look at what's available to replace him...not much.

He wasn't the biggest issue.

Joel
01-18-2017, 02:15 AM
I'd welcome Okung back at a lower salary, you gotta look at what's available to replace him...not much.

He wasn't the biggest issue.
Fair points both; I wouldn't mind upgrading LT and resigning Okung to play RT for $3-5M/yr, but for $10M EACH of the next TWO seasons? There's plenty of LTs our there who'd play as badly as he did this year for way less.

King87
01-18-2017, 02:42 AM
Fair points both; I wouldn't mind upgrading LT and resigning Okung to play RT for $3-5M/yr, but for $10M EACH of the next TWO seasons? There's plenty of LTs our there who'd play as badly as he did this year for way less.

Some of the rankings list had him around the middle of the pack. Actually, I think it's slightly lower than middle. I think that for most of the game he's alright, but he almost always has one or two putrid plays a game. If he were our worst lineman, we'd probably have a good line. If we could just find a consistent TE who could help him block it would help a lot, too.

Joel
01-18-2017, 03:41 AM
Some of the rankings list had him around the middle of the pack. Actually, I think it's slightly lower than middle. I think that for most of the game he's alright, but he almost always has one or two putrid plays a game. If he were our worst lineman, we'd probably have a good line. If we could just find a consistent TE who could help him block it would help a lot, too.
Maybe we can move our OL coach that used to be our TE coach that used to be our OL coach that used to be our TE coach back to TEs: Then he can provide us a bunch more TEs with the blocking prowess of Julius Thomas. And if he doesn't, well, we can just blame the head coach who's NEVER directly coached that position. ;)

Speaking of which, I saw the bit about Benton, but also the quality of the Jags blocking this year; I'd still prefer this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Pollack_(American_football)). Either's a huge upgrade on Barone though.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-18-2017, 02:12 PM
John Elway will have some extra salary cap to use in 2017.

The NFL Players Association announced on Wednesday the salary cap totals that each team has elected to carry over into the 2017 season. The Denver Broncos are carrying over more than $7.2 million.

Denver is expected to have around $38,410,833 in 2017 salary cap space, according to Spotrac.com. That estimate will likely go up because Spotrac only calculated $6.8 million to roll over.

rest - http://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/18/denver-broncos-2017-salary-cap-space/

Davii
01-18-2017, 03:43 PM
rest - http://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/18/denver-broncos-2017-salary-cap-space/

Not to mention that figure also account for Okung's contract. If we cut or restructure Okung that 10 million won't hit us. We should have ~45+ million available.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-18-2017, 05:05 PM
Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 10m

#Broncos announce Emmanuel Sanders headed to Pro Bowl as replacement for Amari Cooper @DenverChannel

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 6m

Broncos now have five Pro Bowlers. @ESanders_10 replaces Amari Cooper. Sanders joins Miller, Talib, Harris and Stewart as Broncos reps.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-18-2017, 05:10 PM
Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 3h

Von Miller had more sacks & total stops (per @PFF). Khalil Mack had more TFLs, hurries (per @PFF) & forced fumbles. Tough call.

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 4h

Matt Ryan named @PFWAwriters' 2016 MVP and Offensive Player of Year. Oakland's Khalil Mack edges Von Miller for Defensive Player of Year.

Denver Native (Carol)
01-18-2017, 08:20 PM
Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 20m

More cash in T.J. Ward's pocket. The NFL rescinded his $9,115 fine for unnecessary roughness penalty vs. NE. League did good. #9sports

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 1h

Clancy Barone wasn't unemployed for long. Former Broncos offensive line coach, Barone has agreement to become Vikings new TE coach. #9sports

dogfish
01-18-2017, 09:58 PM
Oakland's Khalil Mack edges Von Miller for Defensive Player of Year.

it's BS, but i kinda like it. . . nobody on this year's team should be too satisfied with this year's performance. . . hopefully von comes back even more motivated to dominate next year. . .

Hawgdriver
01-18-2017, 11:28 PM
Wrong.

But I'm happy as a Bronco fan because I want Von hungry.

Hawgdriver
01-18-2017, 11:32 PM
Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 20m

More cash in T.J. Ward's pocket. The NFL rescinded his $9,115 fine for unnecessary roughness penalty vs. NE. League did good. #9sports

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 1h

Clancy Barone wasn't unemployed for long. Former Broncos offensive line coach, Barone has agreement to become Vikings new TE coach. #9sports

Interesting.

I'm going to keep an eye on Barone. My gut is that he could have stayed on this staff another year in prove-it capacity, not taken the bullet for Stephenson/CJ Injury/Sambraillo/Siemian.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-18-2017, 11:49 PM
Von tapered off quite a bit in the second half of the season.

Joel
01-18-2017, 11:58 PM
Interesting.

I'm going to keep an eye on Barone. My gut is that he could have stayed on this staff another year in prove-it capacity, not taken the bullet for Stephenson/CJ Injury/Sambraillo/Siemian.
I still think it was more like Kubiak and Dennison taking a full six guns worth of seasons for him. Minny's a bad deal either way though, and some of it won't even be his fault: Their line's already a train wreck, and their backfield consists of a QB coming off a severe knee injury, an aging RB who already had one and a journeyman QB who's already had TWO.

Hawgdriver
01-18-2017, 11:59 PM
You think Kubiak/Dennison were the victims of Barone's sheer incompetence?

Joel
01-19-2017, 12:01 AM
You think Kubiak/Dennison were the victims of Barone's sheer incompetence?
Wouldn't be the first.

Hawgdriver
01-19-2017, 12:04 AM
Wouldn't be the first.

Who was the first?

MOtorboat
01-19-2017, 12:45 AM
Wouldn't be the first.

Lol. This is absurd.

Joel
01-19-2017, 01:12 AM
Who was the first?
Probably the Chargers, but it says a lot that Manning was healthier when he arrived in Denver than when he left. That had a whole lot to do with Fox getting canned the previous year. I can't really lay McDumbass at Barones feet: McDumbass was a disaster in his own right.

I really don't get this: Kubiak's been an assistant and coordinator for FOUR SB teams, took an expansion team to its first playoff game AND win, then helped the Ravens win a road playoff game against Pitt before nearly doing the same to the eventual SB "Champ" Cheats (too bad Baltimores vaunted D couldn't hold TWO 14 pt leads.) Barone, on the other hand, has... um... can you come back to me? Whoever's been crippling our offense since 2009, it's NOT the guy hired in 2015.

spikerman
01-19-2017, 06:24 AM
Whoever's been crippling our offense since 2009, it's NOT the guy hired in 2015.

??????????????

http://den.247sports.com/Bolt/TBT-The-Denver-Broncos-record-breaking-2013-season-37829836

VonDoom
01-19-2017, 07:42 AM
Are there now two current threads on this board that are talking mostly about Clancy Barone?

Denver Native (Carol)
01-20-2017, 10:27 PM
Wasn't sure where to put the following, so put it here - maybe because I would love to see Christian in a Broncos' uniform

Christian McCaffrey ‏@CMccaffrey5 6h

Grateful to learn from one of the best slot receivers in the game. @bstokley14! @LandowPerform

VonDoom
01-25-2017, 12:52 PM
Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 2m2 minutes ago

Broncos signed DL Shelby Harris to a reserve/future contract. Was most recently on the Cowboys' practice squad.

VonDoom
01-28-2017, 04:12 PM
Was hoping we'd go after Brandon Williams in FA. Seems like the Ravens (wisely) want to keep him:


Ravens nose tackle Brandon Williams is not a household name, but the folks in Baltimore understand how important he is to their defense.

A third-round pick of the Ravens in 2013, Williams becomes an unrestricted free agent in March, and Assistant General Manager Eric DeCosta says the Ravens are going to do what it takes to keep him.

“We have to try to retain him,” DeCosta said. “He’s an ‘A’ player for us, he’s one of our best defensive players. He’s a rock inside. This guy can stuff the run, he can rush the quarterback, he can do everything we want him to do.”

The 340-pound Williams has started all 16 games two years in a row and is one of the NFL’s top run-stuffers. Sometimes at this time of year teams will try to downplay a player’s importance in an attempt to get better leverage in contract negotiations, but the Ravens aren’t doing that. Instead, they’re making clear that they love Williams and want him around, with defensive line coach Joe Cullen saying, “To me, there isn’t a better nose tackle in football.”

The Ravens will pay him accordingly.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/01/28/ravens-prioritize-re-signing-brandon-williams/

Joel
01-28-2017, 04:47 PM
Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 2m2 minutes ago

Broncos signed DL Shelby Harris to a reserve/future contract. Was most recently on the Cowboys' practice squad.
Nothing against you, but I really wish sports writers would stop saying, "DL" and "OL," as if they're all interchangeable. I had to look the dude up, but Wikipedia says he's a DE, and his 290 lb. weight corroborates that. I doubt he's the pocket-collapsing sky-blotting immovable object we want at NT, but might compete with Crick and Gotsis (and Walker if he's healthy and re-signed) for Jacksons old spot.


Was hoping we'd go after Brandon Williams in FA. Seems like the Ravens (wisely) want to keep him:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/01/28/ravens-prioritize-re-signing-brandon-williams/
Well, I BELIEVE we have room for a bidding war or two, but it sounds like Baltimore will pay any price, else they wouldn't be publicly saying so (or maybe that's just what they WANT people to think; who knows what GMs really think?)

spikerman
01-28-2017, 05:05 PM
Ummm, Joel, a DE is a member of the DL and if they slide him inside he's not playing as a DE but is still a DL.

Joel
01-28-2017, 05:51 PM
Ummm, Joel, a DE is a member of the DL and if they slide him inside he's not playing as a DE but is still a DL.
Yeah, I get that, but most DTs and DEs (nor OTs and Gs) aren't as interchangeable as "DL" and "OL" make them sound, and it feels like most people believe. It's more understandable with a 3-4, but they never make even that distinction, and how many 4-3 DEs would you slide inside if you switched to 3-4? Ware and Doom were both DEs when Dallas and Denver ran 4-3s, but OLBs in 3-4s: Because a 250-260 lb. DE doesn't work in an NFL 3-4.

"I know it, you know it and the American sportswriters know it," but it's still "DL" as if it's just 3 or 4 identical guys who could each line up anywhere on the line with the same effect. Just like "OL," but there's no way Paradis would draw those high marks around the league as an OT: Alex Mack wouldn't.

It's just annoying, because when they say "we added a DL" it doesn't really tell me much. And when we ran a 4-3 it REALLY didn't tell me much: Is he some speedy pass rusher like Doom or Von, or a lumbering hulk like Potroast? Both are valuable, but in very different and MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE ways.

VonDoom
01-30-2017, 08:03 PM
Mike Garafolo ‏@MikeGarafolo 2h2 hours ago

One of new 49ers GM John Lynch's targets for top personnel guy: Adam Peters, currently Broncos' director of college scouting, sources say.

Mike Garafolo ‏@MikeGarafolo 2h2 hours ago

Adam Peters began his career as a scout for the Patriots. Followed McDaniels to Denver and has climbed the ranks there. Well thought of.

Cecil Lammey ‏@CecilLammey 50m50 minutes ago

Cecil Lammey Retweeted Mike Garafolo

Peters is an Elway favorite. Someone he can lean on. Losing him would hurt #Broncos #FanSB51 @1043TheFan

Denver Native (Carol)
01-30-2017, 08:23 PM
Broncos running backs coach Eric Studesville received a promotion and an extended title. Studesville, a 21-year coaching veteran, will also serve as assistant head coach under head coach Vance Joseph, an NFL source confirmed.

9News first reported Studesville’s promotion.

Studesville joined the Broncos in 2010 after stints with the Chicago Bears (1997-2000), New York Giants (2001-03) and Buffalo Bills (2004-09) and was elevated to interim head coach when Josh McDaniels was fired later that season.

Since 2010, the Broncos rank 13th in the league with 114.9 rushing yards per game and 21st with 4.09 average yards per carry, while Studesville has worked under four different head coaches, including the most recent hire, Joseph.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/30/broncos-rb-coach-eric-studesville-promoted/

dogfish
01-30-2017, 08:36 PM
Peters is an Elway favorite. Someone he can lean on. Losing him would hurt #Broncos #FanSB51 @1043TheFan

as thoroughly average as our drafts have been in the elway era, this guy should be easily replaceable. . . somebody else can find talent in the first round. . .



and no offense to studesville, but if assistant head coach was on the table, they should have damn well brought back bobby turner, the best in the business. . . maybe studs is a better "leader of men" or something-- he certainly isn't anywhere close to turner's caliber when it comes to finding and developing badass ballcarriers. . . devonta freeman and tevin coleman say what's up. . .

Jaded
01-30-2017, 09:52 PM
Sampro was Kubiak's pick.

VonDoom
01-31-2017, 11:19 AM
It's official on the Peters hire for SF:

Matt Maiocco ‏@MaioccoCSN 39m39 minutes ago

Source: #49ers GM John Lynch hires Adam Peters to be the team’s vice president of player personnel.

dogfish
01-31-2017, 02:32 PM
the PFT article on the peters hire mentions the fact that we could have blocked him from interviewing if we wanted, as it wasn't a promotion to a position with final say over the roster. . . either elway was showing loyalty to an assistant by allowing him to make a career move, or JFE feels comfortable in his ability to replace the guy. . . or maybe both, but either way it's a decent look for us. . .

Joel
01-31-2017, 03:23 PM
Sampro was Kubiak's pick.
Not this again: Sure, Kubiak passed over the EIGHT OTs drafted higher because Sambrailo "fit the system." He could've had Jake Fisher, or even traded up all of 2 picks to get fellow Aggie Cedric Ogbuehi, but Cincy got BOTH because of Sambrailos sheer "athleticism." The same athleticism he displayed on a self-inflicted and apparently CAREER-ENDING injury he incurred making an openfield tackle on Hillman (dude, just let him go: Hillman can tackle HIMSELF just fine.)

Pair the garbage linemen we've drafted with the fact our former scouting director was hired by the same McDumbass who hired our former line/TE "coach," and I'm feeling OK with this loss. Addition by subtraction worked with Fox and Del Rio, right?

Davii
01-31-2017, 09:02 PM
the PFT article on the peters hire mentions the fact that we could have blocked him from interviewing if we wanted, as it wasn't a promotion to a position with final say over the roster. . . either elway was showing loyalty to an assistant by allowing him to make a career move, or JFE feels comfortable in his ability to replace the guy. . . or maybe both, but either way it's a decent look for us. . .

Probably a little of both, however, you won't get/keep solid folks if you don't allow them to advance when ready.

King87
01-31-2017, 09:34 PM
Not this again: Sure, Kubiak passed over the EIGHT OTs drafted higher because Sambrailo "fit the system." He could've had Jake Fisher, or even traded up all of 2 picks to get fellow Aggie Cedric Ogbuehi, but Cincy got BOTH because of Sambrailos sheer "athleticism." The same athleticism he displayed on a self-inflicted and apparently CAREER-ENDING injury he incurred making an openfield tackle on Hillman (dude, just let him go: Hillman can tackle HIMSELF just fine.)

Pair the garbage linemen we've drafted with the fact our former scouting director was hired by the same McDumbass who hired our former line/TE "coach," and I'm feeling OK with this loss. Addition by subtraction worked with Fox and Del Rio, right?

Ogbuehi ws coming off of an ACL tear and from what my friends tell me about him, he's been ass. Fischer has struggled to get onto the field and most Cincy fans I know think he's going to be a bust.

Hyperfocusing on the defense got us two SB appearances and one SB win. I don't think anyone would go back in time and change too many things.

Jaded
01-31-2017, 09:41 PM
Not this again: Sure, Kubiak passed over the EIGHT OTs drafted higher because Sambrailo "fit the system." He could've had Jake Fisher, or even traded up all of 2 picks to get fellow Aggie Cedric Ogbuehi, but Cincy got BOTH because of Sambrailos sheer "athleticism." The same athleticism he displayed on a self-inflicted and apparently CAREER-ENDING injury he incurred making an openfield tackle on Hillman (dude, just let him go: Hillman can tackle HIMSELF just fine.)

Pair the garbage linemen we've drafted with the fact our former scouting director was hired by the same McDumbass who hired our former line/TE "coach," and I'm feeling OK with this loss. Addition by subtraction worked with Fox and Del Rio, right?

Take it up with Mike Klis, Sampro was Kubiak's pick.

Btw, I'm ok with the loss of McDaniels Error remnants too.

Jaded
01-31-2017, 09:45 PM
Ogbuehi ws coming off of an ACL tear and from what my friends tell me about him, he's been ass. Fischer has struggled to get onto the field and most Cincy fans I know think he's going to be a bust.

Hyperfocusing on the defense got us two SB appearances and one SB win. I don't think anyone would go back in time and change too many things.

I'd take Ogbuehi.

Hawgdriver
01-31-2017, 11:18 PM
I'd take Ogbuehi.

Upgrade over Stephenson.

Joel
02-01-2017, 12:11 AM
I'd take Ogbuehi.
He beat out Fisher for the job; it's a crime Cincy got BOTH while we're stuck with the likes of Sambrailo and Schofield. But hey, they were 2nd and 3rd round pick (because Schofields #95 selection is 6 spots higher than #101, which was the first 4th round pick after the four supplemental 3rd rounders.) Any decent coach can make a solid starting OT out of that kind of premium talent.

NightTerror218
02-01-2017, 02:17 PM
He beat out Fisher for the job; it's a crime Cincy got BOTH while we're stuck with the likes of Sambrailo and Schofield. But hey, they were 2nd and 3rd round pick (because Schofields #95 selection is 6 spots higher than #101, which was the first 4th round pick after the four supplemental 3rd rounders.) Any decent coach can make a solid starting OT out of that kind of premium talent.

Patriots have

King87
02-01-2017, 02:55 PM
I'd take Ogbuehi.

I'm not saying he's going to be a trash career guy. I'm just saying.

Hawgdriver
02-01-2017, 02:58 PM
I'm not saying he's going to be a trash career guy. I'm just saying.

He hasn't proven that much.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-01-2017, 07:32 PM
Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 38m

Also asked Ellis about Elway's deal: "I’m confident that we’ll be able to get a deal done & keep him here for a long time. As it should be.”

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 43m

Ellis on Joseph: "He is not going to call plays. He's going to oversee everything. I think that approach will serve him well."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 45m

Joe Ellis on #Broncos HC Vance Joseph: "He made a presentation that clearly stated how he would run the team. It was very impressive."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 60m

Joe Ellis: 'Our fans had been so loyal and been through so much. It was just the right time to take a break from raising ticket prices."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 1h

Their average ticket price of $101 now falls outside the league's top 10.

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 1h

For the first time since 2011, the Broncos will NOT increase ticket prices this season.
3 replies 19 retweets 48 likes

Joel
02-01-2017, 07:50 PM
Patriots have
Solder was a 1st rounder, Vollmer only dropped to #58 because he played for a second-tier school and didn't play football AT ALL til he was 14, and Cannon's only starting because Vollmer's been hurt the past two seasons. Even that NE* fluff piece PAGS posted on the Great Scarnechhia making Cannon a starter mostly talks about how great their GUARDS are now: One was a 1st and another a 3rd (fine for a G, but not an OT,) with only the C undrafted. Remember when everyone laughed at Dallas spending a 1st on a C in 2013? Three All Pro teams later, no one's laughing anymore, but you find far more great Cs in later rounds than great OTs.

NightTerror218
02-01-2017, 08:01 PM
Solder was a 1st rounder, Vollmer only dropped to #58 because he played for a second-tier school and didn't play football AT ALL til he was 14, and Cannon's only starting because Vollmer's been hurt the past two seasons. Even that NE* fluff piece PAGS posted on the Great Scarnechhia making Cannon a starter mostly talks about how great their GUARDS are now: One was a 1st and another a 3rd (fine for a G, but not an OT,) with only the C undrafted. Remember when everyone laughed at Dallas spending a 1st on a C in 2013? Three All Pro teams later, no one's laughing anymore, but you find far more great Cs in later rounds than great OTs.

Patriots starting C was a free agent rookie. Cannon is a 5th rounder. Mason 4th round G many starts. Jackson 4th round G many starts. Voller 2nd round who pats let test market. Thuney 3rd round. Soldier 1st round.

Joel
02-01-2017, 09:04 PM
Patriots starting C was a free agent rookie
So NOT an OT then?


Cannon is a 5th rounder.
And only starting because Vollmer's on IR.


Mason 4th round G many starts. Jackson 4th round G many starts.
Right: G=/=OT


Voller 2nd round who pats let test market.
Again, they reached on an overseas player who didn't play til HS and went to a second-tier school, but got lucky. I'd be fine with Elway rolling those dice, but Sambrailo went to Colorado State and Schofield went to MICHIGAN: They just aren't any GOOD.


Thuney 3rd round.
And STILL not an OT; lots of great Gs have come from the 3rd round, but we chase OTs there after everyone else drafted all the good ones in the 1st and 2nd.


Soldier 1st round.
Case in point. But that's about the only way Elway will add a 1st round OT: If he's old, hurt and most of all CHEAP.

Speaking of which: The Cheatriot Way isn't just "allowing Vollmer to test the market." Belicheat KNOWS scads of teams can and will beat the $4M/yr salary he was paying a starting RT who won a Ring, nearly won two, and started an AFCCG in the interim. Someone will take far more than a $4M gamble he stays healthy 2-3 years. Which probably rules us out since that's all we're paying Stephenson.

Jaded
02-01-2017, 11:17 PM
Maybe y'all should just go be P*triots fans.

NightTerror218
02-01-2017, 11:23 PM
So NOT an OT then?


And only starting because Vollmer's on IR.


Right: G=/=OT


Again, they reached on an overseas player who didn't play til HS and went to a second-tier school, but got lucky. I'd be fine with Elway rolling those dice, but Sambrailo went to Colorado State and Schofield went to MICHIGAN: They just aren't any GOOD.


And STILL not an OT; lots of great Gs have come from the 3rd round, but we chase OTs there after everyone else drafted all the good ones in the 1st and 2nd.


Case in point. But that's about the only way Elway will add a 1st round OT: If he's old, hurt and most of all CHEAP.

Speaking of which: The Cheatriot Way isn't just "allowing Vollmer to test the market." Belicheat KNOWS scads of teams can and will beat the $4M/yr salary he was paying a starting RT who won a Ring, nearly won two, and started an AFCCG in the interim. Someone will take far more than a $4M gamble he stays healthy 2-3 years. Which probably rules us out since that's all we're paying Stephenson.

Wow you try to debate me. When i stated the pats get good talent outside of round 1 in OL. And you go out to left field and get lost.

Point, pats have had same system for years and draft a lot of system players that work for them. The nevwr have a bottom of league line.

Joel
02-02-2017, 02:46 AM
Wow you try to debate me. When i stated the pats get good talent outside of round 1 in OL. And you go out to left field and get lost.
Not lost nor in left field: Saying, "OL," isn't much better than saying "football player." Paradis is a top rated "OL;" anyone want to start him at LT, or even RT?

LOTS of good interior linemen come from later rounds, because they aren't valued as highly, so they last longer in the draft. The guys blocking edge rushers are valued and thus DRAFTED much higher, so any team that consistently goes looking for starting OTs where everyone else looks for starting Gs is consistently SCREWED. Hell, half the starting Gs in the NFL are bust OTs: That's how former OTs Michael Schofield and Ty Sambrailo became "starting Gs," remember?


Point, pats have had same system for years and draft a lot of system players that work for them. The nevwr have a bottom of league line.
Sure they have, partly because Belicheat won't pay guys like Matt Light and Logan Mankins they're worth any more than he does anyone else. That's why they spent a 3rd and a pair of 4ths on INTERIOR linemen in just the last two years; know how many Elway's drafted there? ONE (Max Garcia,) not just the last 2 years, but EVER. Even when they DID have Matt Light under contract for two more seasons, they spent a 1st to get Solder #17 overall (the SECOND OT drafted in 2011, not NINTH nor ELEVENTH.) Light read the handwriting on the wall and retired at seasons end.

Their run game's consistently crap, and their pass blocking holds opponents to 25 sacks one season only to give away 40 the next—with BRADY running a short passing game! Their last SB was with a 2nd-year 4th round C, and not because he was so great (he's already UNEMPLOYED.) In fact, Solder's the ONLY starting lineman they have left from just TWO YEARS AGO, even though only ONE was >30 then: They threw three rookies out there in 2015, one of whom (like their 2014 starting C) ISN'T EVEN IN THE NFL ANYMORE. Hardly a tribute to "great drafting for a great system."

If anything, it's a reminder you get a lot of busts even when you DO invest to picks, whether it's Ryan Leaf or George Foster. The difference is that when half a the 1st round QBs bomb sports writers don't write articles declaring, "stop wasting high picks on QBs; half of them bust, and Brady, Wilson and Romo weren't 1st or 2nd rounders." That, and a bust OTs in the 1st can still frequently be salvaged as starting Gs; bust QBs become HS coaches.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-02-2017, 09:11 AM
Maybe y'all should just go be P*triots fans.

Go wash your mouth out!

Jaded
02-02-2017, 09:19 PM
Go wash your mouth out!

Me? I'm not the one that's slurping up everything the P*triots say and do.

NightTerror218
02-03-2017, 06:38 PM
Seems like OL DL TE and LB are weakest links on team. I think a lot of people agree with DT and OL. Run defense is only weakness of defense. I think under McCoy a TE will not be as key with our WR duo but still a need. Need a LB next to marshall. I did not see many TE FA that stood out and seems elway will give deaft picks a chance unless he can pull off an blockbuster FA. I also think elways has a tendency to target players for big splashes in FA who are entering prime years of careers with ware and manning as exceptions. This being said i see a lot of possible players who are under 30 becoming FA elway could target. Elway will prob target older players but they would only get a team friendly deal front loaded and only 2 to 3 year span. Younger players like talib ward get the longer contracts. This list is in order of pff ranking high of 87 and low of 81.

Kawaan short DT age 28
Kevin zeiter og age 27
Tj lang og age 29
Donta Hightower lb age 27
Zach brown lb age 27
Larry warford og age 26
Ronald leary og age 28
Kevin monter lb age 26

This are all player who were starting players on their teams. Leary i think is the only backup on the list. FA is very weak for OT.

Whitworth ot age 35 (stop gap if okung is let go)

We know elway will fill needs before draft. Interested to see his magic play out.

Joel
02-03-2017, 09:27 PM
Elway also has a history of bargain hunting, ESPECIALLY on the line (not that there's anything wrong with that; any decent coach could make it work. ;)) It's why Okung's here for $5.2M, and also why he won't REMAIN here after March unless he renegotiates a BIG pay cut from what he's due the next TWO years. Either way, I expect more of the same, and with that in mind, here's Spotracs list of FA OTs in order of value (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/tackle/).

Whitworth sticks out, but also turned 35 last December, and the next time Elway spends $9M+/yr on ANY offensive lineman (even an OT) will be the first. I'd be surprised if Minny lets a solid 27-year-old LT like Kalil walk, given the health history of their RB and both QBs, but thrilled if we got him. Vollmer seems more likely since his injury history hurts his value (and could be blamed if he bombed.) But he's not a LT; after Whitworth and Kalil, they rate Riley Rieff the most valuable LT.

Another point to consider: Spotrac has Kalil as "Most Valuable Tackle," but Minny RT Andre Smith at #5; he could be a cap casualty if they're forced to choose.

Among Gs (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/guard/), Spotrac shows Lang as the 2nd highest value and Leary 4th, with Chance Warmack in between and converted OT Luke Joeckel on top. Joeckel was drafted as a Jag (not to be confused with a JaG) so there's a connection with our new assistant line coach (i.e. he was Jacksonvilles last year, and as much as Kubiak scouted local colleges in Houston, he probably saw tape of Aggie alumn Joeckel even before he went pro in 2013.)

*shrugs* Just spitballing; if it's premature to forecast draft needs before FAs first round, forecasting THAT before the first releases and re-signings is no less so.

Jaded
02-03-2017, 11:33 PM
Matt Kalil LT
Luke Joekel LG

NightTerror218
02-03-2017, 11:41 PM
Elway also has a history of bargain hunting, ESPECIALLY on the line (not that there's anything wrong with that; any decent coach could make it work. ;)) It's why Okung's here for $5.2M, and also why he won't REMAIN here after March unless he renegotiates a BIG pay cut from what he's due the next TWO years. Either way, I expect more of the same, and with that in mind, here's Spotracs list of FA OTs in order of value (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/tackle/).

Whitworth sticks out, but also turned 35 last December, and the next time Elway spends $9M+/yr on ANY offensive lineman (even an OT) will be the first. I'd be surprised if Minny lets a solid 27-year-old LT like Kalil walk, given the health history of their RB and both QBs, but thrilled if we got him. Vollmer seems more likely since his injury history hurts his value (and could be blamed if he bombed.) But he's not a LT; after Whitworth and Kalil, they rate Riley Rieff the most valuable LT.

Another point to consider: Spotrac has Kalil as "Most Valuable Tackle," but Minny RT Andre Smith at #5; he could be a cap casualty if they're forced to choose.

Among Gs (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/guard/), Spotrac shows Lang as the 2nd highest value and Leary 4th, with Chance Warmack in between and converted OT Luke Joeckel on top. Joeckel was drafted as a Jag (not to be confused with a JaG) so there's a connection with our new assistant line coach (i.e. he was Jacksonvilles last year, and as much as Kubiak scouted local colleges in Houston, he probably saw tape of Aggie alumn Joeckel even before he went pro in 2013.)

*shrugs* Just spitballing; if it's premature to forecast draft needs before FAs first round, forecasting THAT before the first releases and re-signings is no less so.

When there are holes elway hits homeruns. When he needs a stop gap he gets bargains.

VonDoom
02-05-2017, 10:38 AM
From Schefter:

While he remains interested in returning to Denver, LB DeMarcus Ware also is leaving door open to play next season in Dallas, per sources.

Joel
02-05-2017, 11:33 AM
Matt Kalil LT
Luke Joekel LG
Spotrac says they're BOTH the most expensive FAs at their positions; do you really see Elway doing that? I'll be thrilled if Benton can talk him into Joeckel.

When there are holes elway hits homeruns. When he needs a stop gap he gets bargains.
Our offensive line hasn't had any HOLES? Because he's NEVER gotten anything but bargain stopgaps; the closest he came to a homerun was Vasquez: Whom he released last year. Oh, I'm sorry, "Kubiak" released him, or maybe Dennison did. :rolleyes:

Jaded
02-05-2017, 06:42 PM
Spotrac says they're BOTH the most expensive FAs at their positions; do you really see Elway doing that? I'll be thrilled if Benton can talk him into Joeckel.

Our offensive line hasn't had any HOLES? Because he's NEVER gotten anything but bargain stopgaps; the closest he came to a homerun was Vasquez: Whom he released last year. Oh, I'm sorry, "Kubiak" released him, or maybe Dennison did. :rolleyes:

A; Yes, I do.

2; do you honestly believe coaches don't have a huge say in draft/free agency? Especially HC's?

Oh and btw, Kalil has already talked about taking a one-year/Prove It deal to rehab his stock. And just because they're "the most expensive" it doesn't mean they're out of the Broncos range.

http://www.espn.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/24996/broncos-are-in-position-to-put-a-lot-of-money-back-into-the-team

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-05-2017, 08:15 PM
From Schefter:

While he remains interested in returning to Denver, LB DeMarcus Ware also is leaving door open to play next season in Dallas, per sources.

I was afraid this would happen.

dogfish
02-05-2017, 10:34 PM
I was afraid this would happen.

unless he was going to play cheap, i think it will be okay. . . it's one of our deepest positions, and we have strong leadership on D even without ware. . . the money might be better spent upgrading nosetackle, or even signing a quality ILB instead. . . ray and barrett are vets now, and we have watson and dora in the wings behind them. . .

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-05-2017, 11:43 PM
unless he was going to play cheap, i think it will be okay. . . it's one of our deepest positions, and we have strong leadership on D even without ware. . . the money might be better spent upgrading nosetackle, or even signing a quality ILB instead. . . ray and barrett are vets now, and we have watson and dora in the wings behind them. . .

I'm more concerned about the leadership void.

Hawgdriver
02-05-2017, 11:56 PM
I'm more concerned about the leadership void.

That's a real thing.

Joel
02-06-2017, 12:23 AM
A; Yes, I do.

2; do you honestly believe coaches don't have a huge say in draft/free agency? Especially HC's?
"Especially"? No, not really; do YOU honestly believe Kubiak came in last year and said, "hey, John, let's wait til the end of the 2nd to draft our franchise LT: The line's in pretty good shape, right?" I'm sure he made his case for SOME kind of offensive player in the 1st—along with Dennison, Wade, DeCamillis and EVERY position coach on the team. Guess who won (hint: NOT the HC.)


Oh and btw, Kalil has already talked about taking a one-year/Prove It deal to rehab his stock. And just because they're "the most expensive" it doesn't mean they're out of the Broncos range.

http://www.espn.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/24996/broncos-are-in-position-to-put-a-lot-of-money-back-into-the-team
Until/unless Elway spends >$5-6M/yr on ANY offensive lineman—even a LT (and good luck finding a good one with that ceiling) that's EXACTLY what it means. If Kalil's willing to take that kind of pay cut, well and good and I'll be glad to have him; I still think Vollmer (or an equivalent) more likely.

NightTerror218
02-06-2017, 12:28 AM
Spotrac says they're BOTH the most expensive FAs at their positions; do you really see Elway doing that? I'll be thrilled if Benton can talk him into Joeckel.

Our offensive line hasn't had any HOLES? Because he's NEVER gotten anything but bargain stopgaps; the closest he came to a homerun was Vasquez: Whom he released last year. Oh, I'm sorry, "Kubiak" released him, or maybe Dennison did. :rolleyes:

Stop being a troll. Elway drafted several guards and brought in 2 new tackles. Nobody knew they woukd all flop.

MOtorboat
02-06-2017, 01:22 AM
Stop being a troll. Elway drafted several guards and brought in 2 new tackles. Nobody knew they woukd all flop.

Joel did. Just ask him.

Jaded
02-06-2017, 01:30 AM
"Especially"? No, not really; do YOU honestly believe Kubiak came in last year and said, "hey, John, let's wait til the end of the 2nd to draft our franchise LT: The line's in pretty good shape, right?" I'm sure he made his case for SOME kind of offensive player in the 1st—along with Dennison, Wade, DeCamillis and EVERY position coach on the team. Guess who won (hint: NOT the HC.)


Until/unless Elway spends >$5-6M/yr on ANY offensive lineman—even a LT (and good luck finding a good one with that ceiling) that's EXACTLY what it means. If Kalil's willing to take that kind of pay cut, well and good and I'll be glad to have him; I still think Vollmer (or an equivalent) more likely.
What I think is out of all the LT's in the 2015 draft Ty Sambrailo was at the very top of Gary Kubiak's wish list. This is what has been reported by Mike Klis in radio interviews.

What I know is HC's and Assistant C's are a huge part of the selection process. Players that the coaching staff doesn't want do not make it to the draft board...period, point blank.

What is a forgone conclusion is that even if Gary Kubiak personally called you and said "Sampro was my pick" you would find some bullshit way to avoid admitting that you're wrong.

And one last thing, Vollmer is in the $5 MM range, anything lower than $3 MM is veteran swing Tackle rate.

Joel
02-06-2017, 02:49 AM
Stop being a troll. Elway drafted several guards and brought in 2 new tackles. Nobody knew they woukd all flop.
No, no: The HC makes all those decisions. Actually, he makes all decisions PERIOD.

Draft a 3rd round OT, expect him to flop. There's a reason EIGHT guys went before one of them and TEN before the other: They were all BETTER, and if you take the 9th or 10th best player at a position in any given draft, you rarely get more than a backup. Same for 4th and 5th round Gs. You can't let half a dozen or more guys at one position go yet still expect leftovers repeatedly rejected by the WHOLE LEAGUE—including YOU—to be starters.

Same with 35-year-olds recovering from season-ending injury while sitting on their couch TWO WEEKS BEFORE OPENING DAY. If he worth calling, SOMEONE would've made that call before late August: There's a reason we got a former All Pro for <$3M. Same reason we got a former Pro Bowler and SB Champ LT for $5.2M: Know many CURRENT Pro Bowl LTs going for that?

The one legit investment was Vasquez, who's also the lone Pro Bowler (and All Pro.) He's also the one RELEASED after last year.

Joel
02-06-2017, 03:03 AM
What I think is out of all the LT's in the 2015 draft Ty Sambrailo was at the very top of Gary Kubiak's wish list. This is what has been reported by Mike Klis in radio interviews.

What I know is HC's and Assistant C's are a huge part of the selection process. Players that the coaching staff doesn't want do not make it to the draft board...period, point blank.

What is a forgone conclusion is that even if Gary Kubiak personally called you and said "Sampro was my pick" you would find some bullshit way to avoid admitting that you're wrong.

And one last thing, Vollmer is in the $5 MM range, anything lower than $3 MM is veteran swing Tackle rate.
I strongly doubt that NONE of the EIGHT OTs drafted ahead of Sambrailo "fit" Kubiaks system better: But FIVE were drafted in the 1st round (because that's where you draft starting OTs) while we drafted a guy I'm sure WADE (and Reggie Herring, one of the up and coming assistants we let Wade go to avoid losing) wanted badly. We only had ONE first round pick, so Elway couldn't take the 1st rounder Kubiak wanted AND the one Wade and Co. wanted: He had to pick, so did.

So we got an OT at the end of the 2nd. As I recall, draftniks were high on DJ Humphries as an good prospect for our or ANY system: Arizona took him immediately after Ray. Ray will be invaluable if Ware returns to Dallas, and likely long afterward: But Peyton Manning needed a starting quality LT THEN, and Lynch/Siemian need one NOW. Jake Fisher was highly touted, too; went at the top of the 2nd. Then two other guys, then Sambrailo.

I'd bet money Elway took Wade and Herrings guy, then Dennison, Barones and MAYBE Kubiaks. That doesn't mean BOTH guys were at the top of both boards.

dogfish
02-06-2017, 03:23 AM
joel, help me out here-- i'm trying to be sure if i understand you. . .


are you trying to tell us you think elway should have drafted a first round OT at some point? i'm just not sure i'm clear on this. . .

Joel
02-06-2017, 04:59 AM
joel, help me out here-- i'm trying to be sure if i understand you. . .

are you trying to tell us you think elway should have drafted a first round OT at some point? i'm just not sure i'm clear on this. . .Line's been crap since long before Kubiak, and OTs (especially LTs) are valued nearly as highly as QBs: Who drafts a starting QB in the 3rd? Highest Elway's ever drafted an OT was #41: Franklin, his first year as GM. That's also the BEST one he's drafted (sad as that is) and the first of just TWO he's drafted even in the 2nd round. In SEVEN years. I don't understand why no one understands. :tongue:

I'm not proud; I'll take a FA, and if OtC's right we have >$30M in cap space we could sign 2-3 All Pros. Even a decent trade would be fine (pity we didn't bundle while there was still some lingering doubt he's a bust) even if certain people feel we don't need an All Pro LT badly enough to give up a 3rd round pick.

Hawgdriver
02-06-2017, 05:06 AM
I don't understand why no one understands. :tongue:

We understand that you hold Kubiak blameless for any deficiencies in the 2016 offensive line, no matter what the bad people say.

Oh, and you have a theory about drafting linemen that is an improvement on what a championship-winning team does.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-06-2017, 12:14 PM
Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 4m

Most oddsmakers make #Broncos second or third best AFC bet to win Super Bowl 52, behind Patriots, and, in cases, #Steelers. @DenverChannel

Denver Native (Carol)
02-06-2017, 12:18 PM
Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 2m

This is first year can trade compensatory picks. #Broncos, likely with four, will have more leverage to move. @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3m

As good folks at @MileHighReport noted in recent post, #Broncos drafting 20th, 51st and will receive, as I have said, likely 4 comp picks.

NightTerror218
02-06-2017, 01:06 PM
Joel forgot we had a franchise LT on roster until he was released this last offseason for okung. So there was not much need to use a 1st on a new LT. I know he was injury prone but was pro bowler when healthy.

He also believed okung would be the franchise LT as well so why draft a LT when you can get BPA?

He has used 2nd and 3rd rounders on RTs and Gs. I would just say he is missing on the picks.

VonDoom
02-06-2017, 02:53 PM
I'm more concerned about the leadership void.

Von is a leader in his own right now. He's kind of become the big brother and the guy that other players look to on that side of the ball.

Not saying we wouldn't miss Ware for that reason, but I'm not sure he's going to be worth the money as a situational player when we have good depth there. I'd actually feel better if he went to Dallas instead of being a hired gun for some other random team. He'll always be a Cowboy so him wanting to end his career there makes a lot of sense.

NightTerror218
02-06-2017, 05:34 PM
Von is a leader in his own right now. He's kind of become the big brother and the guy that other players look to on that side of the ball.

Not saying we wouldn't miss Ware for that reason, but I'm not sure he's going to be worth the money as a situational player when we have good depth there. I'd actually feel better if he went to Dallas instead of being a hired gun for some other random team. He'll always be a Cowboy so him wanting to end his career there makes a lot of sense.

Miller was captain in pro bowl. Hope to see him become captain next season.

Jaded
02-06-2017, 08:46 PM
Joel forgot we had a franchise LT on roster until he was released this last offseason for okung. So there was not much need to use a 1st on a new LT. I know he was injury prone but was pro bowler when healthy.

He also believed okung would be the franchise LT as well so why draft a LT when you can get BPA?

He has used 2nd and 3rd rounders on RTs and Gs. I would just say he is missing on the picks.

#hammer

Joel
02-07-2017, 03:35 AM
Joel forgot we had a franchise LT on roster until he was released this last offseason for okung. So there was not much need to use a 1st on a new LT. I know he was injury prone but was pro bowler when healthy.
"When he was healthy" was a long time ago; he's never been the same since blowing out his knee in offseason pickup basketball. He's had another serious injury to that leg and a season-ending injury to that foot: He WAS a franchise LT, just as Mathis WAS an All Pro G, but NOW Clady's only playing half the season.


He also believed okung would be the franchise LT as well so why draft a LT when you can get BPA?
If he believed that he would've locked up Okung instead of negotiating an expensive 2nd and 3rd year club option he can (and will) walk away from within a month.


He has used 2nd and 3rd rounders on RTs and Gs. I would just say he is missing on the picks.
No, he used 2nd and 3rd rounders EXCLUSIVELY on Gs, which usually "miss" for ALL teams. Just like his 4th and 5th round Gs. Some become legit starters, just as some 6th round QBs turn into Brady: But MOST DON'T, and the other 31 teams don't blame coaching when guys projected as backups turn out to BE backups.

#hammer
Ya don't say; so you thought all or even most of Elways late round linemen were legit starters who only failed because no one "coached up" a late 3rd round OT to an early 1st level? First I've heard of it; I seem to recall someone annually complaining that we'd taken late round linemen who dropped because they SUCK but had the "athleticism" to "fit our system." Long before Kubiak came home, too.

NightTerror218
02-07-2017, 05:56 PM
"When he was healthy" was a long time ago; he's never been the same since blowing out his knee in offseason pickup basketball. He's had another serious injury to that leg and a season-ending injury to that foot: He WAS a franchise LT, just as Mathis WAS an All Pro G, but NOW Clady's only playing half the season.


If he believed that he would've locked up Okung instead of negotiating an expensive 2nd and 3rd year club option he can (and will) walk away from within a month.


No, he used 2nd and 3rd rounders EXCLUSIVELY on Gs, which usually "miss" for ALL teams. Just like his 4th and 5th round Gs. Some become legit starters, just as some 6th round QBs turn into Brady: But MOST DON'T, and the other 31 teams don't blame coaching when guys projected as backups turn out to BE backups.

Ya don't say; so you thought all or even most of Elways late round linemen were legit starters who only failed because no one "coached up" a late 3rd round OT to an early 1st level? First I've heard of it; I seem to recall someone annually complaining that we'd taken late round linemen who dropped because they SUCK but had the "athleticism" to "fit our system." Long before Kubiak came home, too.

Joel once again you are wrong. And being long winded wont make what you say true.

Elway owned okung in negotiations since he was no agent. I bet eleay would have paid him more last season if he had too.

If after cladys he was a pro bowler just nit all pro. He missed 2013 and 2015 as a bronco and was drafted in 08. He started all games since drafted intil game 3 of 2013 season because injured on game 2.

I think ita funn you tell me "no" i am wrong when you are the king of googling non-sense stats. Since you dont watch games. But exclusively you are wrong. Sombrailo was drafted as RT as book end to clady and was a 2nd round pick there goes your BS aeguement. Oh ya and franklin was a 2nd round RT he drafted. There have been a few other OL drafted in round 3 and later, no tackles all g or c. 3rd round turn out a ton of starters are you on crack. Later rounds are back ups.

BroncoJoe
02-07-2017, 06:36 PM
It's gonna be a looooooooooog off season. That's for sure...

NightTerror218
02-07-2017, 06:47 PM
It's gonna be a looooooooooog off season. That's for sure...

No joke

Denver Native (Carol)
02-07-2017, 08:09 PM
Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 37s

#Broncos coordinators promise aggressive approach. McCoy says O improvement starts upfront: @DenverChannel http://bit.ly/2kjYPKM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

Just so no confusion, Joseph said #Broncos running 3-4 defense. Woods will be calling signals @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos said he's committed to the 2 young quarterbacks "absolutely". @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos Olivo: "We are going to play fast, play hard, and we are going to kill it." Fans will like this guy @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos' Brock Olivo impressive guy. Speaks with authority and passion for special teams. @DenverChannel

Ryan Koenigsberg ‏@RyanKoenigsberg 3h

Olivo: "I want to thank Vance Joseph for the six hour interview... and the confidence to go with a first time coordinator."

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos DC Joe Woods said one area needs improvement. Rush defense @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos DC Joe Woods "Terminology will stay same.We aren't changing anything. Call everything same. A few tweaks along way" @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos McCoy "Our offense will go as far as our offensive line will take us.. We need to improve there." @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos McCoy on Siemian and Lynch: "I am happy with the two guys we have." ...Was asked about bringing in third vet QB. @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos McCoy familiar with Musgrave, Tolbert, Studesville, Davidson... likes to get input on game days. @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos McCoy "It's not my offense. It's Broncos' offense. I will ask for a lot of input. I am going to lean on (Davidson)." @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos McCoy said, "I have a burning desire to call plays.. And I didn't do that the last four years. I have missed that" @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3h

#Broncos McCoy said w QBs "It's going to be an open competition. We will let them come in and compete. There's going to be a lot of changes"

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 4h

#Broncos McCoy: "I understand what the expectations are here every year… It was an easy decision to make (to come back)." @DenverChannel

Jaded
02-07-2017, 10:51 PM
"When he was healthy" was a long time ago; he's never been the same since blowing out his knee in offseason pickup basketball. He's had another serious injury to that leg and a season-ending injury to that foot: He WAS a franchise LT, just as Mathis WAS an All Pro G, but NOW Clady's only playing half the season.


If he believed that he would've locked up Okung instead of negotiating an expensive 2nd and 3rd year club option he can (and will) walk away from within a month.


No, he used 2nd and 3rd rounders EXCLUSIVELY on Gs, which usually "miss" for ALL teams. Just like his 4th and 5th round Gs. Some become legit starters, just as some 6th round QBs turn into Brady: But MOST DON'T, and the other 31 teams don't blame coaching when guys projected as backups turn out to BE backups.

Ya don't say; so you thought all or even most of Elways late round linemen were legit starters who only failed because no one "coached up" a late 3rd round OT to an early 1st level? First I've heard of it; I seem to recall someone annually complaining that we'd taken late round linemen who dropped because they SUCK but had the "athleticism" to "fit our system." Long before Kubiak came home, too.

I was talking about the presence of Ryan Clady.

I hated the Sampro pick but liked the Schofield pick. I liked the Garcia and Franklin picks but laughed at the Blake pick. I liked Vasquez, Stephenson and Okung pickups. I like the McGovern pick.

Joel
02-08-2017, 08:34 AM
Joel once again you are wrong. And being long winded wont make what you say true.

Elway owned okung in negotiations since he was no agent. I bet eleay would have paid him more last season if he had too.
Because that's Elways track record, right? I'll say this much for Okung: He got a bigger salary out of Elway than ANY other FA OT. But thinking about that club option negotiation always makes me think of the second Austin Powers movie. "Sure, sure, Russell; how 'bout a billion gajillion dollars for 2017-2018...?"


If after cladys he was a pro bowler just nit all pro. He missed 2013 and 2015 as a bronco and was drafted in 08. He started all games since drafted intil game 3 of 2013 season because injured on game 2.
Clady played every 2010 game because his injury was before camp; he still sucked until 2011 and WAS an All Pro in 2012—then he injured the foot on the same leg and sucked until 2014, then he tore the ACL on the same leg, missed the season and barely played HALF of THIS season. I don't blame Elway cutting him.


I think ita funn you tell me "no" i am wrong when you are the king of googling non-sense stats. Since you dont watch games. But exclusively you are wrong. Sombrailo was drafted as RT as book end to clady and was a 2nd round pick there goes your BS aeguement. Oh ya and franklin was a 2nd round RT he drafted. There have been a few other OL drafted in round 3 and later, no tackles all g or c. 3rd round turn out a ton of starters are you on crack. Later rounds are back ups.
Ah, the obligatory "watch the games" shot; right, I make tons of online posts about football but don't bother watching games. :rolleyes: That's little more than an ad hominem, and ignores the actual argument.

Yes, Sambrailo was a 2nd, which is NOT A 1st, and I "watched" him get tackled from behind by Hillman on a play that probably aborted his career: He's a backup GUARD now, a bust for anyone projected to be a starting TACKLE.

Yes, Franklin at #41 was Elways HIGHEST pick on a lineman in SEVEN YEARS; not coincidentally, he's also the BEST lineman Elway's drafted (such as that is.)

Those are the ONLY OTs Elway's EVER drafted higher than the 3rd in SEVEN YEARS. And if you don't think there's a difference between a G and an OT, all I can say is "watch the games," or watch the DRAFT and see how many of each go in the first two rounds. Yeah, Elway's drafted other OTs LOWER, including all of ONE on the NEXT TO LAST PICK of the THIRD round: He's a starting G, and only that because everyone else sucks worse. If you want a starting lineman in the (very LATE) 3rd round you better be 1) drafting a GUARD or 2) lucky as Hell.

Joel
02-08-2017, 08:59 AM
I was talking about the presence of Ryan Clady.
Fair enough, but having Clady at LT didn't change the fact we had nada at RT and a QB in his late thirties who'd played hurt the last half of two straight seasons. The ass end of the 2nd's a bad place to draft ANY starting OT, though certainly worse for LTs than RTs.


I hated the Sampro pick but liked the Schofield pick. I liked the Garcia and Franklin picks but laughed at the Blake pick. I liked Vasquez, Stephenson and Okung pickups. I like the McGovern pick.
Yeah, still wonder why we didn't see McGovern last year when the "best" alternatives we had were a couple failed OTs who only have three good arms between them. Franklin was a decent pick; he was projected as a starting RT, and the high forties (as opposed to the low fifties or mid-nineties) isn't a great place for one, but not terrible. Likewise Garcia; I'd have liked to strike sooner, but a G's not hopeless at the end of the 4th. Vasquez was great; wish we'd kept him.

The rest though... we spent scrub picks on the rookies so that's what we got; not any coaches fault unless one buys the argument Elway just rubber stamps the HCs picks, meaning offensively minded Kubiak just fell in love with a #4 pass rusher in the 1st round of 2015. I liked Okung til I started hearing rumors about his former teammates saying Seattle didn't even make him an offer; now we know why. I've NEVER understood what people saw in Stephenson, a career backup who only "won" the starting job when KC let not one but TWO starting RTs leave in FA—then got cut HIMSELF after a single season. Now we know why.

The reality is that some positions have high demand but low supply, and even among the rest it's pure dumb luck as much as coaching if anyone drafted later than early in the 5th ever becomes more than a backup. Yes, many 3rd round QBs, edge rushers, OTs, CBs and WRs have had great careers; Romo, Rod Smith and Night Train Lane were all undrafted—but they're the exception to the rule. Yes, 1st rounders routinely bust, but the odds of getting good players are still MUCH higher there than in the 2nd, and much higher in the 2nd than later. No one looks at Ryan Leaf and decides to draft their franchise QB in the 5th "because there's greater value."

It's an overused phrase, but certain positions are "mission-critical." You need a good QB or you'll get buried by someone elses. You need a good #2 WR or opponents just double cover your only good one; you need a good #2 CB because that's the flip side. You need (at least) two good pass rushers or opponents just double team your only good one: You need a good RT because that's the flip side.

You really can't afford ANY weak links on "the OL," because if you have even ONE, that's where the whole D will pour through while your four All Pros get to block nobody one-on-one. Your All Pro OT or G lines up at OT or G every time; their All Pro pass rushers line up wherever the Hell they want, and it WON'T be opposite your All Pro blockers. How many times have we "watched" Von or Ware switch sides to exploit weaknesses, or overload blitzes DESIGNED to do so?

You can't treat the trenches as an afterthought yet expect success and blame the inevitable failure on "bad coaching." EVERYONE understands that when we're talking about edge rushers and run-stuffing DTs—so why do people think 5 Mr. Irrelevants can be "coached up" to block those guys...?

King87
02-08-2017, 01:25 PM
Joel, you were envious of the Bengals get a tackle in the second round. Ironically Whitworth was a tackle taken in the somewhere in the second-fourth round.

Great lineman are found everywhere.

Cugel
02-08-2017, 02:38 PM
Joel forgot we had a franchise LT on roster until he was released this last offseason for okung. So there was not much need to use a 1st on a new LT. I know he was injury prone but was pro bowler when healthy.

He also believed okung would be the franchise LT as well so why draft a LT when you can get BPA?

He has used 2nd and 3rd rounders on RTs and Gs. I would just say he is missing on the picks.

Ryan Clady hasn't been healthy since 2012 and never will be again. Here's the latest on his career with the Jets:


The New York Jets eventually face a decision on the future of left tackle Ryan Clady, but the team bought itself sometime with a contract reworking that actually took place in December, according to a source.

Clady, who started eight games for the team in 2016, was scheduled to have a $1 million roster bonus due in mid-February, which would have put the clock on team management to decide whether or not to move on from the former All-Pro lineman. He also is due a $10 million base salary for 2017, none of which is guaranteed.

Under the new terms, Clady is no longer due a roster bonus, with that $1 million instead being converted into incentives. His $10 million base pay, which remains untouched, isn't guaranteed until Week 1 of the regular season, at which point base salaries for all vested veterans become guaranteed.

Clady’s season was cut short because of a rotator cuff injury, as injuries have limited him to a total of just 27 of 64 total games since the start of the 2013 season. While Clady would still seem like a long shot to be retained for 2017 with a $10 million base salary, the Jets have afforded themselves more time to evaluate his health and performance.

The Jets took a gamble on Clady, that he could return to the Pro-bowl form he had from 2006-2012. It didn't work out. The majority of his starts since his injury in training camp in 2013, were in 2014. He played the majority of that season and wasn't very good. Then he was injured again in the off-season in 2015, missing the Broncos SB season.

Joel
02-08-2017, 02:44 PM
Joel, you were envious of the Bengals get a tackle in the second round. Ironically Whitworth was a tackle taken in the somewhere in the second-fourth round.

Great lineman are found everywhere.
So are great QBs; should we have waited til the 3rd to draft ours "for Great Value"?

Cugel
02-08-2017, 02:47 PM
The history with Ryan Clady is informative, because that is the kind of LT who is generally available via FA. You're taking a chance on a guy whose team has given up on him due to performance issues or injuries. That's how the Broncos were able to get Russell Okung.

The ONLY way the Broncos could acquire a really good LT via FA would be to trade for Joe Thomas with the Browns. I don't think the Browns will trade Thomas for anything the Broncos would be willing to pay (well of course they'd trade him for a 1st or possibly 2nd round pick, but Elway didn't just fall off of the turnip truck, and he's not paying that much for a 32 year old T who has played every snap during his entire career).

The Browns management was desperate 2 years ago (they probably knew they were going to get fired anyway and they were!) and were willing to trade Thomas for a 2nd round pick, or else a later round pick plus backup LB Shaquil Barrett. Well, Elway had a terrible brain fart and refused the deal. Now that deal is not on the table. The Browns fired all those guys and a new team isn't likely to trade their best player and the only guy on the roster who will ever wear a Gold jacket in Canton.

Basically, Russell Okung may not be great, but welcome to the club. Elite caliber LTs are as rare and difficult to find as elite franchise QBs. There are only a handful of such guys and they are just not available because their teams lock them up with long-term contracts, just as the Broncos did with Clady until he was injured and playing at a level that was significantly below his contract for several years.

The only thing for the Broncos to do in this situation is to grit their teeth and bear it. They will have to re-negotiate a contract with Okung that doesn't pay him $11.7 million for 2017.

The problem is that he would get about that in FA, so he has very little incentive to cut the Broncos a break, so he could leave via FA, in which case the Broncos are very probably screwed. It will be like when Clady went down in training camp in 2015 and they tried to get rookie Ty Sambarilo ready to be the starting LT.

Well, aside from ridiculous hype from Dove Valley about how Sambrailo was "doing great" during training camp, that was always going to be a disaster. The team probably lost nothing when Sambrailo was injured and missed the season. He's a complete bust at this point due to injury issues that prevent him from lifting weights. He can't get stronger and therefore is too weak to play in the NFL at his position.

But, obviously, the OL was pretty bad in 2015 (remember all the Manning self-sacks?) and horrible in 2016. It doesn't look like they are going to be able to get an elite LT this year at all since there's none available in FA or the draft.

Cugel
02-08-2017, 02:54 PM
So are great QBs; should we have waited til the 3rd to draft ours "for Great Value"?

Well, we wouldn't be having this discussion if Elway wasn't addicted to 7' tall bean-pole QBs who throw side-arm for some inexplicable reason, like The Brockster, instead of QBs who have the right MIND SET to be successful leaders in the NFL - like Russell Wilson. :coffee:

King87
02-08-2017, 02:58 PM
So are great QBs; should we have waited til the 3rd to draft ours "for Great Value"?

Well, I think you're going to find more quality lineman in later rounds than quarterbacks, so I'm not sure you're arguing from a strong position.

We could also point out that an all-pro QB beats the hell out of an all-pro offensive lineman.

Also...We'd be spending five straight first rounders on a line if we had it your way.

Imagine...passing up Von Miller for...you know....whatever offensive lineman was good from that class.

Cugel
02-08-2017, 03:01 PM
The reality is that some positions have high demand but low supply, and even among the rest it's pure dumb luck as much as coaching if anyone drafted later than early in the 5th ever becomes more than a backup. Yes, many 3rd round QBs, edge rushers, OTs, CBs and WRs have had great careers; Romo, Rod Smith and Night Train Lane were all undrafted—but they're the exception to the rule. Yes, 1st rounders routinely bust, but the odds of getting good players are still MUCH higher there than in the 2nd, and much higher in the 2nd than later. No one looks at Ryan Leaf and decides to draft their franchise QB in the 5th "because there's greater value."

It's an overused phrase, but certain positions are "mission-critical." You need a good QB or you'll get buried by someone elses. You need a good #2 WR or opponents just double cover your only good one; you need a good #2 CB because that's the flip side. You need (at least) two good pass rushers or opponents just double team your only good one: You need a good RT because that's the flip side.

You really can't afford ANY weak links on "the OL," because if you have even ONE, that's where the whole D will pour through while your four All Pros get to block nobody one-on-one. Your All Pro OT or G lines up at OT or G every time; their All Pro pass rushers line up wherever the Hell they want, and it WON'T be opposite your All Pro blockers. How many times have we "watched" Von or Ware switch sides to exploit weaknesses, or overload blitzes DESIGNED to do so?

You can't treat the trenches as an afterthought yet expect success and blame the inevitable failure on "bad coaching." EVERYONE understands that when we're talking about edge rushers and run-stuffing DTs—so why do people think 5 Mr. Irrelevants can be "coached up" to block those guys...?

It's all true, but it's all pretty irrelevant too. Elway knows all this, he just can't do it. He can't pay Aquib Talib, Chris Harris, DeMarcus Ware, TJ Ward and Darien Stewart, not to mention Von Miller's ginormous contract . . . and then pay the same $ to his OL. Elway choose to put the money into his defense and skimp on his OL - getting late round draft picks and cheap 2nd tier FAs.

The Raiders for instance are paying FAs Orlando Franklin and King Dunlop combined $15M during 2017, and both players have big guarantees ($16.5 & $13M guaranteed). They choose to do things differently.

The Cowboys choose to draft Tyron Martin, Zach Fredericks, and LT Tyron Smith - all in the first round. Then five years later they have the best OL in football. But, obviously that took a great deal of time and money commitment.

And no, he's not reversing his decision to put most of his money into the defense, or getting rid of Aquib Talib just because you want him to. :coffee:

Cugel
02-08-2017, 03:11 PM
Well, I think you're going to find more quality lineman in later rounds than quarterbacks, so I'm not sure you're arguing from a strong position.

We could also point out that an all-pro QB beats the hell out of an all-pro offensive lineman.

Also...We'd be spending five straight first rounders on a line if we had it your way.

Imagine...passing up Von Miller for...you know....whatever offensive lineman was good from that class.

Getting a franchise QB in the 2nd or 3rd round (let alone 7th) is just so wildly unlikely that teams just assume (with good historical reason) that any QB taken in the 7th round is just camp fodder. Tom Brady is the exception that proves the rule that it just doesn't happen very often.

Russell Wilson is another example - 3rd round draft pick. But, he's the one QB out of 150 drafted in the late 2nd round or later since Brady in 2001 to play in a SB. So, not very likely at all that some 3rd round QB you take is going to wind up being another Russell Wilson.

Getting a franchise LT is just the same. There's no sure fire can't miss LT prospect in this entire draft according to the experts. IF there was, he'd go in the top 10. Maybe the top 5. Because, aside from elite QB prospect, there's no more difficult player to find in the NFL than elite LT prospect.

Now you're down to hoping against hope that some "development Project" you can get in a later round can be turned into that kind of player with some coaching and perhaps some growing up on the part of the player.

Alternatively, you could go out and overpay some FA OL like Russell Okung who his previous team has given up on because they don't think he's worth what his contract is going to be if they were to re-sign him, either because he underperformed their expectations for him, or because of injury or character issues.

It's like shopping in the bargain basement for a pair of designer shoes. There may be shoes, but are they going to be the right style and color and are they in your size? Probably not.

King87
02-08-2017, 03:23 PM
Getting a franchise QB in the 2nd or 3rd round (let alone 7th) is just so wildly unlikely that teams just assume (with good historical reason) that any QB taken in the 7th round is just camp fodder. Tom Brady is the exception that proves the rule that it just doesn't happen very often.

Russell Wilson is another example - 3rd round draft pick. But, he's the one QB out of 150 drafted in the late 2nd round or later since Brady in 2001 to play in a SB. So, not very likely at all that some 3rd round QB you take is going to wind up being another Russell Wilson.

Getting a franchise LT is just the same. There's no sure fire can't miss LT prospect in this entire draft according to the experts. IF there was, he'd go in the top 10. Maybe the top 5. Because, aside from elite QB prospect, there's no more difficult player to find in the NFL than elite LT prospect.

You can find some guys who are pretty good in other rounds. The debate rages on Brees for instance - a second round pick who was taken 32nd in the draft because a team lost a first round draft pick. He's the equivalent of a first rounder, though. Favre was a second rounder. Schaub -not a guy Joel has any respect for but he was a good QB- wasn't a first rounder. A lot of guys were good and could have taken a team to the SB.

Building a roster isn't done with absolutes. I'm not saying it's your position. But, there is a philsophy that each GM has. Honestly I think Elway has been a god at GM - The Falcons and the Cowboys have great lines that everyone drools over. The Browns had a line for about five or six years everyone drooled over. Where are the rings? Or the consistent postseason success? You don't need a great line to win.

You don't need a great QB to win a Sb.
Or a great OL to win.
Or a great defense to win.

You need to have a roster that is great or elite at something and then the rest of the roster has to be pretty solid. There will always be a key weakness.

The Broncos won a SB with one of the best defenses ever, a really strong WR corp, a savvy QB. The tight end play was passable. The running back play was passable. The line sucked.

The Patriots have a great QB, solid WRs, good TE play without Gronk, and an amorphous defense that can do it all. In the past they won with great line play, a great running game, a really good QB -before Brady had turned into god- and a strong defense. Etc.


It's an interesting approach to see the draft and the free agency pool as a continued roster development period. A lot of good drafting teams turn their nose up on the FA pool. Yet recent history tells us that great teams use that pool to improve. We had an influx of talent from FA. The Patriots have used it. The Ravens did in their past SB win and the one prior.

I think it takes a totality of awareness to do what Elway has done.

And, with respect to Joelio Jones, I'm glad the formula he has is more nuanced than 'draft and sign all the OL guys'.

underrated29
02-08-2017, 03:48 PM
Well, we wouldn't be having this discussion if Elway wasn't addicted to 7' tall bean-pole QBs who throw side-arm for some inexplicable reason, like The Brockster, instead of QBs who have the right MIND SET to be successful leaders in the NFL - like Russell Wilson. :coffee:



Lynch does not throw sidearmed

Hawgdriver
02-08-2017, 05:47 PM
The Patriots have a great QB, solid WRs, good TE play without Gronk, and an amorphous defense that can do it all. In the past they won with great line play, a great running game, a really good QB -before Brady had turned into god- and a strong defense. Etc.

Jamie Collins sad face.

Jaded
02-08-2017, 06:01 PM
Russell Wilson again? :rolleyes:

Jaded
02-08-2017, 06:02 PM
Well, we wouldn't be having this discussion if Elway wasn't addicted to 7' tall bean-pole QBs who throw side-arm for some inexplicable reason, like The Brockster, instead of QBs who have the right MIND SET to be successful leaders in the NFL - like Russell Wilson. :coffee:

Neg!

Joel
02-09-2017, 03:14 AM
Well, I think you're going to find more quality lineman in later rounds than quarterbacks, so I'm not sure you're arguing from a strong position.

We could also point out that an all-pro QB beats the hell out of an all-pro offensive lineman.

Also...We'd be spending five straight first rounders on a line if we had it your way.

Imagine...passing up Von Miller for...you know....whatever offensive lineman was good from that class.
Oh, stop; no one's saying to pass on the BPA at #2, because

1) He actually IS the best (or at least 2nd best, but there's a good chance the last place team will be reaching for a QB, so there's a good chance you actually can get the ABSOLUTE BEST player in that draft,)

2) It's almost a given your dogshit team with NOTHING can IMMEDIATELY start the BPA no matter WHAT position he plays,

3) Your dogshit team NEEDS a player like that if it's going to become competitive any time soon, and a franchise player if it's going to STAY that way and

4) Top 3 draft picks are, ideally, something you WANT to be too rare (and thus too precious to blow,) because a team must be TERRIBLE to get one (Cleveland has yet to master this concept) and, perhaps most importantly,

5) Your dogshit team has nothing BUT holes; you CAN'T fill them ALL with 7 picks, and passing up elite rare talent to "prioritize" a given "need" is like "prioritizing" which of a dozen sucking chest wounds to bandage first: They're ALL killing you, so start patching with the best means you've got before you bleed out dithering over which one's "most important." A team like that drafting a particular "need" is how you end up with, say... Akili Smith.... ;)

Let's not pretend all Elways OTs have been #2 overall picks: That's pretty much the EXACT OPPOSITE of my argument. I realize the humanities aren't a math-intensive, but even a lawyer must know 2<59 (much less 95.) :tongue:

2<20 (too.) Know how they say a new car loses half its value the moment you drive it off the lot? Well, it's not QUITE that bad for draft picks, but pretty close (http://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php). And remember, the chart's don't reflect the CBA changes that imposed a rookie salary cap on those 1st rounders who all come with a 5th year option: The difference between a high and low 1st round pick is probably BIGGER than the chart says.

That's why the chances of getting a Von Miller at #20 are WAY less than at #2. And if you're drafting that low, the Best Player Left will likely as not eat $2M/yr in cap space to ride pine behind a Pro Bowler; he's not one of the drafts top athletes in the first place, and the guy already starting WAS. Let's look at THOSE 1st rounders:







Pick
To
AP1
PB
St
CarAV
G
Cmp
Att
Yds
TD
Int
Att
Yds
TD
Rec
Yds
TD
Int
Sk


Paxton Lynch (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LyncPa00.htm)
26
2016
0
0
0
1
3
49
83
497
2
1
11
25
0







Shane Ray (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RayxSh00.htm)
23
2016
0
0
0
8
30












12.0


Bradley Roby (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RobyBr00.htm)
31
2016
0
0
0
8
48











5
2.0


Sylvester Williams (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillSy00.htm)
28
2016
0
0
3
23
60












5.5


Derek Wolfe (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WolfDe00.htm)
36
2016
0
0
5
32
69












22.5


Von Miller (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MillVo00.htm)
2
2016
3
5
6
72
88











1
73.5


It's nicely bookended by examples of EXACTLY what SHOULD be done with radically different teams:

The 31st best team went BPA, because it had its choice of "anyone but Cam Newton" (a common scenario in the top 3: The #1 and sometimes #2 overall pick as well went on an awful team convinced reaching for a QB is the solution to all their countless problems, so the best player available at #2 probably is the ABSOLUTE best.) The 1st best team didn't waste time nor picks sifting for the Best Leftovers Available when it clearly and BADLY needed to replace a first ballot HoF QB.

Wolfe's far and away the best of the rest—but wasn't a 1st rounder: Elway traded back (twice,) also a good gambit for a team neither great NOR awful (and .500 is as average as it gets,) doubly so after reaching the divisional round "prize" of getting blown out AND a low draft position. It's a good way to either get lots of good-but-not-great players to build around the franchise player taken #2 overall, or plug multiple holes if a team's close to contender status.

The other actual 1st rounders though?

Sly didn't even start at a support position til halfway through his rookie year, and only then because Vickersons injury promoted Potroast to his spot, pressing Sly into his. He finally slid into a lead role by default when Knighton left for a payday, and had his first solid season in a SB campaign—then had a down season without Jackson/Walker to support him; Elway decided early that even his 5th year option wasn't worth it. 1st round value...?

Roby's a solid #3 CB I still believe Talibs successor sooner than later, but... a number of people... love pointing out that he's no Talib and still gets beat too much for a #1/2. The good news is that a #3 CB in the modern league IS a starter, so we'll get a chance to see more of him before making a decision on his 5th year option. Too soon to say if he's 1st round quality, but he's not shown it in THREE years (I bet Elway decides a 5th year option eats <$12M of cap space either way.)

Ray DID eat $2M/yr of cap for TWO years to ride pine behind a likely HoFer, only seeing limited support duty when Wares back sidelined him. That was often enough to start half of 2015, play all but one game and notch 8 sacks, but it'll still be year THREE before he's delivering 1st round value (presuming Ware's a cap casualty, though his age and health combined with Wades departure make that prospect very real.)

Call me crazy, but even low 1st round picks still retain enough value—and access to good enough players—I expect Day One starters, not Year Three (or Four) starters. And so does NFL.com (http://firstroundgrade.com/grading-scale/), which treats "top 20 pick" and "immediate starter" as synonymous, "1st round pick" and "starter during his rookie season" equally so. Roby qualifies, but Sly only qualifies due to an ACTUAL starters injury and will be off the team within a month; Ray STILL hasn't qualified.

One final point: People keep pointing to Sambrailo and even Franklin and saying, "SEE? Elway DID spend high picks on OTs" as if those 2nds are the NORM instead of the EXCEPTION in SEVEN DRAFTS. The LATE 2nd round is the HIGHWATER mark for the most highly sought after position on a unit so critical and so BAD it SINGLEHANDEDLY cost us one SB, prevented another run the next year, nearly cost us the one we DID win AND prevented our title defense this year. Even with a first ballot HoF QB all but one of those years and one of the best Ds ever all but two of them.

If you had a bunch of Pro Bowlers everywhere else but only 30 sacks last year, and faced a draft deep and strong in pass rushers, would you take whatever random position had the Best Leftover Available (despite knowing the demand for pass rushers is so great one of them is likely to be the best left)? Or add the final piece of your championship puzzle?

What if you had all those Pro Bowlers but ALLOWED 30 passing TDs heading into a draft strong and deep at CB; Best Remaining Player Available when it's unlikely to be the top CBs all the other garbage secondaries grabbed by #10, or...?

What if you had all those Pro Bowlers, including a solid franchise QB, but only THREW 20 passing TDs headed into a draft deep and strong at WR; Best Second-Tier Player at a Position Where You're Already Stacked, or...?

The fixation on BPA combined with it actually BEING THE RIGHT CALL for teams in the top half of a round make it VERY unlikely a playoff team can draft a top 10 player in ANY draft. If all your scouting is PERFECT (which no ones ever is) you might luck out and get, say, the 15th best player because a few desperately bad teams were stupid enough to make a desperately bad reach (Cleveland sucks for a reason, right?)

The 2014 draft had 19 players that have made at least one Pro Bowl (so far...) but 9 went by #17, 5 more by #32.
2013 had 20, and most WERE in the bottom half of the 1st (only ONE by #10, one more by #16, but 8 between #16-#32,) so score one for BPA.
2012 had 23, with 7 in the top half of the 1st and 5 the bottom half (Chandler Jones was #21, and the Cheatriots thank Cincy for their contribution.) Push.
2011 had 29, including all but FOUR of #1-16, and TWO of #1-10, but only THREE of #16-32.
2010 had 38, with 7 in #1-10, 10 in #1-16 and 6 in #17-32

The trend is more Pro Bowlers the farther back we go, as talent tends to out once players get off the bench and the good ones become less likely to have NO great seasons. Yet even as far back as 2010, there's <33% chance of getting even ONE Pro Bowl out of picks #17-32 in any season but 2013 (when the odds shot up to 50%, but we still missed out, taking Sly right after DeAndre Hopkins and before Cordarelle Patterson.) Meanwhile, the odds in the top half of the 1st were an even 50% overall, nearly TWICE as high.

Go back farther (so we're mostly looking at retired players, and can spot some HoFers) and it looks like this:

1997: 23 Pro Bowlers, 3 HoFers (#1 Orlando Pace, #6 Walter Jones and #73 Jason Taylor.) 8 PBers in the top of the 1st, 2 in the bottom (and Tarik Glenn was #19, so the final playoff team got him.)
1996: 34 Pro Bowlers and 2 HoFers (#4 Jonathan Ogden and #19 Marvin Harrison, and htF did Indy manage to pull that off two years straight?) 9 PBers in the top of the 1st, 6 in the bottom.
1995: 29 Pro Bowlers but 4 HoFers (#12 Warren Sapp, #28 Derrick Brooks, #74 Curtis Martin and #196 Terrell Davis.) Seems obvious this was another clear win for BPA, but only WAY down: The totals were 9 PBers in the top of the 1st, 4 in the bottom (Carolina and Jax got picks at BOTH ends of each round.)
1994: 24 Pro Bowlers, 2 HoFers (#2 Marshall Faulk and #46 Larry Allen.) 8 PBers in the top of the 1st, 2 in the bottom.
1993: 36 Pro Bowlers, (#8 Willie Roaf, #10 Jerome Bettis, #40 Michael Strahan, #74 Will Shields; #82 John Lynch is likely to join them eventually.) 7 PBers in the top of the 1st, 3 in the bottom.

So here '96 was the best (a respectable 40%) chance to find a Pro Bowler in the bottom half of the first, but in the other years it was less than HALF as likely, while the chances in the top of the first stayed around 50% annually. That's the same ratio of HoFers: 6 in the top of the 1st, 3 in the bottom (and 6-7 in the rest of the draft combined, with 2 in the 2nd, 3 in the 3rd, 1 in the 4th (though Lynch was a borderline 3rd) and 1 in the 6th.)

That's frankly better than I expected, and suggests scouting lower rounds has (slightly) improved. It's still not much better than a break even proposition after #16.

MOtorboat
02-09-2017, 02:02 PM
Lol. Good grief.

JPPT1974
02-09-2017, 02:13 PM
Yeah as it will come down to the young QB's of Lynch and Siemian and how it will come down to the wire.

Magnificent Seven
02-09-2017, 02:53 PM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 40m40 minutes ago
Colts released inside linebacker D’Qwell Jackson.

D. Jackson is available. Is Elway still interested in him?

VonDoom
02-09-2017, 02:58 PM
Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 40m40 minutes ago
Colts released inside linebacker D’Qwell Jackson.

D. Jackson is available. Is Elway still interested in him?

I wanted him a few years ago. Not so much anymore

dogfish
02-09-2017, 03:02 PM
I wanted him a few years ago. Not so much anymore

he might be able to help against the run, but i don't know how much he has left in the tank. . . i'd imagine we'll be looking for a younger, faster option, whether it's through free agency or the draft. . .

NightTerror218
02-09-2017, 03:08 PM
I wanted him a few years ago. Not so much anymore

He is a great stop gap players. Good against run still and tackling machine. Colts saved $5.5 m cutting him. I would take him as starter next to marshall. He was 1 of a few bright spots for Colts.

King87
02-09-2017, 03:40 PM
If he would play for around three million bucks he's worth it.

Joel
02-09-2017, 03:53 PM
I'm kinda hoping for a COVERAGE ILB; we missed Trevathan at least as much there as in run stopping. If Walker's healthy (and if we re-sign him) that'll solve a lot of the run Ds problems; probably more than an ILB would. We'll still need a NT (I don't think we declined our bargain 5th year option on Sly just to hand him a fat contract instead) but, as usual, if we fix the trenches we'll fix the run. But that won't help our pass coverage over the middle, and Marshall's only one guy.

I can definitely see why Elway would've been interested in Jackson before last year, but the season he had after coming back from his PED suspension makes me wonder if THAT was all 33-year-old had left in the tank and he's just another aging LB without it. Twitter says Indy cut him to create $5½M of cap room; it's unclear he's worth that much to anyone else. Don't know how this draft class looks, but it seems like 3-4 ILB is a great example of a position with good later round value.

Valar Morghulis
02-09-2017, 05:01 PM
Lol. Good grief.

I know, Jesus h Christ

BroncoJoe
02-09-2017, 05:10 PM
Lol. Good grief.

The only thing worse is when he and Cugel get into it.

slim
02-09-2017, 05:20 PM
I'm kinda hoping for a COVERAGE ILB; we missed Trevathan at least as much there as in run stopping. If Walker's healthy (and if we re-sign him) that'll solve a lot of the run Ds problems; probably more than an ILB would. We'll still need a NT (I don't think we declined our bargain 5th year option on Sly just to hand him a fat contract instead) but, as usual, if we fix the trenches we'll fix the run. But that won't help our pass coverage over the middle, and Marshall's only one guy.

I can definitely see why Elway would've been interested in Jackson before last year, but the season he had after coming back from his PED suspension makes me wonder if THAT was all 33-year-old had left in the tank and he's just another aging LB without it. Twitter says Indy cut him to create $5½M of cap room; it's unclear he's worth that much to anyone else. Don't know how this draft class looks, but it seems like 3-4 ILB is a great example of a position with good later round value.

Or we could move 58 to ILB.

slim
02-09-2017, 05:20 PM
I know, Jesus h Christ

Scrolling through that made me dizzy.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-09-2017, 07:10 PM
Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 7h

Top Bronco FAs: DeMarcus Ware, Sly Williams, Kayvon Webster, Vance Walker, Jordan Norwood, Dekoda Watson, Billy Winn, J. Forsett. #9sports

slim
02-09-2017, 07:16 PM
Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 7h

Top Bronco FAs: DeMarcus Ware, Sly Williams, Kayvon Webster, Vance Walker, Jordan Norwood, Dekoda Watson, Billy Winn, J. Forsett. #9sports

Not really a must have list.

spikerman
02-09-2017, 07:33 PM
Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 7h

Top Bronco FAs: DeMarcus Ware, Sly Williams, Kayvon Webster, Vance Walker, Jordan Norwood, Dekoda Watson, Billy Winn, J. Forsett. #9sports
I'd prioritize Webster first, Ware, and Walker if the price is right. The rest can walk.

Hawgdriver
02-09-2017, 07:48 PM
Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 7h

Top Bronco FAs: DeMarcus Ware, Sly Williams, Kayvon Webster, Vance Walker, Jordan Norwood, Dekoda Watson, Billy Winn, J. Forsett. #9sports

Let Ware, Sly, Forsett, and Norwood walk. Ink Webster, Walker, Watson, and Winn.

dogfish
02-09-2017, 09:39 PM
Not really a must have list.

i don't agree. . . kayvon webster and vance walker are critical depth-- we REALLY missed walker in run defense this past year. . . and watson gives us more edge depth, and quality special teams play. . . webster is also a ST ace. . . with as much cap space as we have, i absolutely want those three back. . . i'd at least bring winn back to camp, also. . .

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-09-2017, 09:40 PM
Webster has been injured so much the last few years while being buried on the depth chart I think we might be able to keep him.

Hawgdriver
02-09-2017, 09:47 PM
Webster is #1 on that list. All he does is win.

Watson is great edge depth with playmaker potential.

Walker and Winn are depth to a critical hole in the roster.

For pocket change, the most important part.

Jaded
02-09-2017, 09:55 PM
Justin Gilbert > Kayvon Webster.

Ware, Watson, Walker and Wynn...anyone with last name that starts with W.

Hawgdriver
02-09-2017, 10:00 PM
Justin Gilbert > Kayvon Webster.

Ware, Watson, Walker and Wynn...anyone with last name that starts with W.

Except Ware. Yup.

Who is Justin Gilbert? Webster is a dyed in the wool Bronco Champ. Special teams boss and 10-20% def. snap guy on the #1 defense.

VonDoom
02-09-2017, 10:02 PM
Justin Gilbert > Kayvon Webster.

Ware, Watson, Walker and Wynn...anyone with last name that starts with W.

Except Webster?

Also Gilbert sucks. Massive bust from that draft. I liked his college tape but man, was I wrong there

Jaded
02-09-2017, 10:04 PM
Except Webster?

Also Gilbert sucks. Massive bust from that draft. I liked his college tape but man, was I wrong there

No, I like Webster, wouldn't mind if he comes back.

Hawgdriver
02-09-2017, 10:05 PM
Obviously I want Ware back and have been a huge advocate of his ability to transform this defense into what it is now...but at this point, we are looking at $$, production, and the fact that he did what we needed from a leadership perspective and it's time to let Von be that man.

Jaded
02-09-2017, 10:08 PM
Except Ware. Yup.

Who is Justin Gilbert? Webster is a dyed in the wool Bronco Champ. Special teams boss and 10-20% def. snap guy on the #1 defense.

Justin Gilbert was a Top 10 of the Browns the year Denver got lucky with Roby. I hold nothing against him in Cleveland and not sure he fit well in Pitt. In Denver, with Talib-ing/Harris/Ward I think he gets his career on track. Plus, he was a PR in college, huge need for Denver, imo.

Morris Claiborne was a bust for 4 years in Dallas but put it together this season, so never say never.

Hawgdriver
02-09-2017, 10:14 PM
Justin Gilbert was a Top 10 of the Browns the year Denver got lucky with Roby. I hold nothing against him in Cleveland and not sure he fit well in Pitt. In Denver, with Talib-ing/Harris/Ward I think he gets his career on track. Plus, he was a PR in college, huge need for Denver, imo.

Morris Claiborne was a bust for 4 years in Dallas but put it together this season, so never say never.

I'm in.

Jaded
02-09-2017, 10:17 PM
I'm in.

He was released but not sure if he went unclaimed. Even if you manage to keep Webster I'd take both. Six deep at CB.

Talib-ing
Harris
Roby
Webster
Doss
Gilbert

VonDoom
02-09-2017, 10:59 PM
He was released but not sure if he went unclaimed. Even if you manage to keep Webster I'd take both. Six deep at CB.

Talib-ing
Harris
Roby
Webster
Doss
Gilbert

He wasn't claimed - he's a FA

Hawgdriver
02-09-2017, 11:01 PM
He's a Revis/Bailey/Talib but without the desire.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-10-2017, 12:00 AM
He's a Revis/Bailey/Talib but without the desire.

Didn't Joe Thomas say Gilbert doesn't love football?

Hawgdriver
02-10-2017, 12:06 AM
Didn't Joe Thomas say Gilbert doesn't love football?

Kiss of death?

Joel
02-10-2017, 12:38 PM
Or we could move 58 to ILB.
We totally could; Barrett would be great 58s current spot. But I'm told a pass rush is more important than coverage over the middle, and, given we no longer run a 4-3 (as we did when I suggested that,) I agree: We have one less defensive lineman to chase the QB and one more pretty good ILB covering the middle underneath.

Again, Barrett would be fine as a starting OLB and Von would be fine as a coverage ILB, but our overall LB depth wouldn't be as good since one of them would now be starting. Also, it's easier to find a coverage 3-4 ILB in the draft or FA than a pass rushing 3-4 OLB, because those are in high demand and short supply. A great OLB and great ILB would be better than a good OLB and good ILB. It's not a terrible option, just not an optimal option.

Joel
02-10-2017, 12:45 PM
Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 7h

Top Bronco FAs: DeMarcus Ware, Sly Williams, Kayvon Webster, Vance Walker, Jordan Norwood, Dekoda Watson, Billy Winn, J. Forsett. #9sports
If we wanted Sly we would've exercised a 5th year option to keep him at a low price; we didn't, so we don't.

I REALLY hope we keep Walker, because he showed his value when Wolfe was suspended the first month of 2015 and our run D and pass rush didn't miss a beat, and his season-ending injury before Opening Day showed the same by his absence all year.

Same goes for Webster for different reasons: Not only is he a STs ace, he played well as #3 CB before drafting Roby relegated him to the bench on most downs. Without rehashing an old debate, even if we don't release Talib now, I see no way we'll take a $12M cap hit for him in 2018 when we can avoid all but $1M of it by simple releasing him, putting Roby in his current spot and either starting Webster at NB or moving Harris there while Webster plays outside.

The rest are likely gone, which is fine by me.

NightTerror218
02-10-2017, 06:54 PM
If we wanted Sly we would've exercised a 5th year option to keep him at a low price; we didn't, so we don't.

I REALLY hope we keep Walker, because he showed his value when Wolfe was suspended the first month of 2015 and our run D and pass rush didn't miss a beat, and his season-ending injury before Opening Day showed the same by his absence all year.

Same goes for Webster for different reasons: Not only is he a STs ace, he played well as #3 CB before drafting Roby relegated him to the bench on most downs. Without rehashing an old debate, even if we don't release Talib now, I see no way we'll take a $12M cap hit for him in 2018 when we can avoid all but $1M of it by simple releasing him, putting Roby in his current spot and either starting Webster at NB or moving Harris there while Webster plays outside.

The rest are likely gone, which is fine by me.

5th year option is too much for a NT. It was not low and would have been $6.7m. 5th year option for a pick outside top 10 is an average of the top 25 salaries not including top 2. $6.7 puts his around #15. With much better DT paid less.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-10-2017, 09:41 PM
Kiss of death?

From Joe Thomas? Yes

dogfish
02-10-2017, 09:57 PM
He's a Revis/Bailey/Talib but without the desire.

or instincts, or technique. . . i don't care if they bring him in to camp, but dude has shown zero ability to be competitive at this level. . .

King87
02-10-2017, 10:13 PM
or instincts, or technique. . . i don't care if they bring him in to camp, but dude has shown zero ability to be competitive at this level. . .

They thought they were going to pair him with Haden and form the most talented corner combination ever.

Never self-style.

Joel
02-10-2017, 10:18 PM
5th year option is too much for a NT. It was not low and would have been $6.7m. 5th year option for a pick outside top 10 is an average of the top 25 salaries not including top 2. $6.7 puts his around #15. With much better DT paid less.
I confess not knowing that, and it does put the matter in a different light. I doubt Slys agent can get that much from us or anyone, so declining made sense even if we do want to keep him. It's a reminder "we've got the option" is a bad way to handle quality 1st rounders in a contracts penultimate year (*coBradleyRoby*ugh.)

Denver Native (Carol)
02-10-2017, 10:52 PM
McCoy plans to mix up Broncos' running scheme
Offensive Coordinator Mike McCoy talks about the Broncos' QB competition, running scheme and how to fix last season's issues.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/McCoy-plans-to-mix-up-Broncos-running-scheme/aa6958cd-a757-4316-9552-8c25edf2659c

Olivo brings 'contagious enthusiasm' to Denver
Broncos TV's Matt Boyer talks with special teams coordinator Brock Olivo about being a first-time coordinator in the NFL, and why his energy for football helped land him in Denver.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Olivo-brings-contagious-enthusiasm-to-Denver-/845ff37a-d867-4964-ba1a-c48f31f6833a

Jaded
02-10-2017, 11:46 PM
No Instincts and technique? Sounds like Kayvon Webster, but he gonna replace Talib-ing.

Joel
02-11-2017, 01:31 AM
No Instincts and technique? Sounds like Kayvon Webster, but he gonna replace Talib-ing.
No, Roby will do that: Webster will merely replace Roby.

Probably; Harris or Roby both play the slot great, an increasingly important but tricky spot, so either could go there while Webster plays the #2 WR.

King87
02-11-2017, 01:34 AM
Webster has sucked, though. Harris isn't great on number one WR's, especially larger ones. Talib is the guy who can do it all. He lets the other corners play to their strengths.

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaay!

Joel
02-11-2017, 02:02 AM
How has Webster "sucked," exactly? I mean, let's HOPE he doesn't, because guess what: He's #4 on the depth chart, meaning everyone else is WORSE than "sucks." Fortunately, that's not why he's on the bench: It's because Roby's so GOOD. He made a game-saving play on a ball to Reggie Wayne Opening Day of his ROOKIE year; guy's a difference maker, so he starts. It's not like every decent passer we face feasts on Webster when we go to dime or one of others is hurt.

Point being, this notion our secondary will instantly collapse on itself in a 70 TD/year singularity without Talib out there gouging eyes and snapping necks when the ref's not looking (or even when he is, because we gotta send the message, yo: Go deep on Denver and you end up with an eyepatch or a wheelchair) IS BUNK. It didn't happen when he was hurt this year. It didn't happen when he was suspended last year. It didn't happen when he was limping back from shooting himself in the ass when he took a gun somewhere it's illegal to have a gun because people get drunk there exactly as he did.

Let's face facts: It's a GOOD thing we're not that completely helpless without Talib, because he turns 31 in two days, is a physical player at a speed position and is into us to the tune of $12M/yr for the next two years. One way or the other, next season is probably his last as a Bronco. That may break the hearts of people who love getting wasted, getting into fights and shooting people (preferably all at once) but it won't be the end of the world—REALLY.

King87
02-11-2017, 02:17 AM
I've never seen him do anything that was impressive. When I notice him, he's usually get spanked by a WR.

Roby's been pretty good, but he's not been as good as Harris, and Harris isn't as good as Talib. Harris seems to only thrive in certain situations. It's a pecking order and a defense that works well with itself, but the secondary runs through Talib.

If Talib goes, no one expects them to go from elite to shit, but give me a break. You consistently overstate how often Talib does something dirty. Joel, you'd think he was getting a personal foul per game.

Let's face facts: when Talib was out last year the secondary wasnt' the same. Thank god Talib is consistently on the field. You keep talking like he doesn't have speed, but his speed hasn't declined. I'll repeat that: HIS SPEED HAS NOT DECLINED! He also isn't just a physical player - he's a ******* monster in coverage and isn't limited to just doing a bump and run style. Talib is probably the most complete corner in the game.

Joel
02-11-2017, 03:13 AM
I've never seen him do anything that was impressive. When I notice him, he's usually get spanked by a WR.
You haven't seen him do much either way since we drafted Roby his second year, because Roby's a very good CB in his own right. So Webster logged TWICE as many passes defensed as rookie than all THREE seasons since. He's played more than Barrett: Does Barrett "suck" too—or is he just ALSO stuck behind a PAIR of All Pros AND a talented 1st round pick? I've seen a few people say Doss is the next big thing, but he's only played a dozen games in 2 years because he's "stuck behind suck."


IRoby's been pretty good, but he's not been as good as Harris, and Harris isn't as good as Talib. Harris seems to only thrive in certain situations. It's a pecking order and a defense that works well with itself, but the secondary runs through Talib.
Harris can be beaten by speed, but he runs clinics in COVERAGE every snap: Speed and agility's about the only way he CAN be beaten.

It's less that he "only thrives in certain situations" than that he and Roby can both play inside or out, so when we face a tough slot receiver one of them draws that assignment. Usually Harris, because he came up doing that and remains our best there. It's a tough job many very good #1/2 CBs can't handle, because it's also very different from playing outside; you don't have a sideline to help and do have to play in traffic, so a fast elusive WR can make a living there. So the question often becomes "Who's more dangerous this week, the slotman, or the #2?" The answer gets Harris; the other, Roby, which works because both can play inside or out.

On top of that, Harris is fearless and selfless in run-stopping, which is why he's had 50+ solo tackles every season but one (and had 49 then,) a mark Talib's only hit twice. Harris stuffed more runs between 2014 and 2015 than Talib has in a DECADE.

Now talk to me about "complete" corners.

Talib's a typical #1CB in that he likes playing off to bait QBs into Ints, and he excels at it, but I've never liked that because it's a high risk/reward feast or famine game: When it works, you get the ball; when it doesn't, there's nothing but a safety between the receiver and your end zone.


If Talib goes, no one expects them to go from elite to shit, but give me a break. You consistently overstate how often Talib does something dirty. Joel, you'd think he was getting a personal foul per game.
Hey, the refs can't see everything (Talib probably has a bumper sticker that says so. :rolleyes:) He logs at least one/year every season but 2012, usually two: In 2015 he had FIVE despite playing one game less than everyone else because one earned him a suspension. Plus he illegally carries guns into bars and literally shoots his own drunk ass. Plus all the physical and often DIRTY play is starting to receive as well as give injuries.


Let's face facts: when Talib was out last year the secondary wasnt' the same. Thank god Talib is consistently on the field.
Either that or, y'know, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers and Derek Carr are pretty good QBs: Two of them had top 10 passer ratings, and Rivers was 5th in yds (but 1st in Ints, which kinda tanked his rating.)


You keep talking like he doesn't have speed, but his speed hasn't declined. I'll repeat that: HIS SPEED HAS NOT DECLINED! He also isn't just a physical player - he's a ******* monster in coverage and isn't limited to just doing a bump and run style. Talib is probably the most complete corner in the game.
He's got 0.04 seconds more 40 speed than Harris, and that was at a Combine FOUR YEARS EARLIER than Harris', which is another thing that irks me: Harris is supposedly the tortoise to Talibs hare even though if they ran a sprint you could't fit a sheet of paper between them. I'm not saying Talib's lost speed, I'm saying he WILL ANY DAY NOW, BECAUSE ALL PLAYERS DO SOON AFTER 30: Which was a year ago Monday for him.

Joel
02-11-2017, 03:14 AM
Anyway, re-sign Webster yesterday, because whether or not this turns into another debate over cutting Talib now, I STRONGLY doubt he'll be here after next season.

King87
02-11-2017, 01:15 PM
You haven't seen him do much either way since we drafted Roby his second year, because Roby's a very good CB in his own right. So Webster logged TWICE as many passes defensed as rookie than all THREE seasons since. He's played more than Barrett: Does Barrett "suck" too—or is he just ALSO stuck behind a PAIR of All Pros AND a talented 1st round pick? I've seen a few people say Doss is the next big thing, but he's only played a dozen games in 2 years because he's "stuck behind suck."


Harris can be beaten by speed, but he runs clinics in COVERAGE every snap: Speed and agility's about the only way he CAN be beaten.

It's less that he "only thrives in certain situations" than that he and Roby can both play inside or out, so when we face a tough slot receiver one of them draws that assignment. Usually Harris, because he came up doing that and remains our best there. It's a tough job many very good #1/2 CBs can't handle, because it's also very different from playing outside; you don't have a sideline to help and do have to play in traffic, so a fast elusive WR can make a living there. So the question often becomes "Who's more dangerous this week, the slotman, or the #2?" The answer gets Harris; the other, Roby, which works because both can play inside or out.

On top of that, Harris is fearless and selfless in run-stopping, which is why he's had 50+ solo tackles every season but one (and had 49 then,) a mark Talib's only hit twice. Harris stuffed more runs between 2014 and 2015 than Talib has in a DECADE.

Now talk to me about "complete" corners.

Talib's a typical #1CB in that he likes playing off to bait QBs into Ints, and he excels at it, but I've never liked that because it's a high risk/reward feast or famine game: When it works, you get the ball; when it doesn't, there's nothing but a safety between the receiver and your end zone.


Hey, the refs can't see everything (Talib probably has a bumper sticker that says so. :rolleyes:) He logs at least one/year every season but 2012, usually two: In 2015 he had FIVE despite playing one game less than everyone else because one earned him a suspension. Plus he illegally carries guns into bars and literally shoots his own drunk ass. Plus all the physical and often DIRTY play is starting to receive as well as give injuries.


Either that or, y'know, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers and Derek Carr are pretty good QBs: Two of them had top 10 passer ratings, and Rivers was 5th in yds (but 1st in Ints, which kinda tanked his rating.)


He's got 0.04 seconds more 40 speed than Harris, and that was at a Combine FOUR YEARS EARLIER than Harris', which is another thing that irks me: Harris is supposedly the tortoise to Talibs hare even though if they ran a sprint you could't fit a sheet of paper between them. I'm not saying Talib's lost speed, I'm saying he WILL ANY DAY NOW, BECAUSE ALL PLAYERS DO SOON AFTER 30: Which was a year ago Monday for him.


No one is knocking Roby. But he's not been a playmaker. Talib is a playmaker. That's a pretty big difference. I like Roby. I liked him out of college. Maybe he can turn into a playmaker because he's young and those things don't happen over night. To say Talib is better (he is) isn't a knock on Roby because Talib is better than just about every corner in the league.

Talib does what Harris does. If you watched Talib you'd see a guy who can do everything on the field. I think that's the biggest problem you have because you know that Talib is good, but you don't know how good he is, or why he's so good.


Harris thrives against slot guys because slot guys tend not to run blisteringly fast.

Talib doesn't just bait QB's into picks. He can do that, but he also plays press coverage, bump-and-run, he played some zone in Tampa, etc. He can do it all. No qualifiers.

One personal foul or two a year is nothing.

He's played almost all of his games for us.

That forty time seems pretty important to a lot of GM's, and that's a step in the NFL. I still recall at the end of the season the announcer pointing out that Talib was running step for step with a WR who ran a 4.3 forty.

Talib is the shit.

Resign Roby, sure. I like paying cornerbacks money when they're productive.

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 01:26 PM
Roby regressed last year. So much so, I am concerned that he may not be the player I thought he was

Hawgdriver
02-11-2017, 01:43 PM
No one is knocking Roby. But he's not been a playmaker. Talib is a playmaker. That's a pretty big difference.


Roby is a playmaker that makes too many mistakes.

slim
02-11-2017, 02:16 PM
Roby has made his share of big plays, especially considering his relatively low number of snaps.

King87
02-11-2017, 02:43 PM
He's been alright. I've seen young playmaking corners. He's not been that.

spikerman
02-11-2017, 03:00 PM
I thought he played a little scared or disinterested at times last year.

Hawgdriver
02-11-2017, 04:40 PM
He's been alright. I've seen young playmaking corners. He's not been that.

Define "playmaking."

King87
02-11-2017, 04:48 PM
Define "playmaking."

No. I don't have to be any more precise than anyone else on this board, you ******* bully brute!!!

dogfish
02-11-2017, 04:59 PM
Roby has made his share of big plays, especially considering his relatively low number of snaps.

he has a knack for coming up with turnovers (including tips that other guys pick) at critical moments in games. . . the jamaal charles fumble return immediately comes to mind, as does the INT on the two-point conversion to beat new england in last year's AFCCG. . . he certainly still has room to grow and become more consistent, but i do think of him as a playmaker. . .

King87
02-11-2017, 05:05 PM
he has a knack for coming up with turnovers (including tips that other guys pick) at critical moments in games. . . the jamaal charles fumble return immediately comes to mind, as does the INT on the two-point conversion to beat new england in last year's AFCCG. . . he certainly still has room to grow and become more consistent, but i do think of him as a playmaker. . .

I don't think of a guy who gets three turnovers in a season as a playmaker. I'm just going to be honest. And while being a playmaker is more than just turnovers -open field tackles, passes defensed, etc- he's a guy who has a handful of noteworthy of plays.

Have higher standards, bitches.

dogfish
02-11-2017, 05:14 PM
I don't think of a guy who gets three turnovers in a season as a playmaker. I'm just going to be honest. And while being a playmaker is more than just turnovers -open field tackles, passes defensed, etc- he's a guy who has a handful of noteworthy of plays.

Have higher standards, bitches.

quality over quantity. . . and as i noted, he was involved in more turnovers than the ones he is credited with. . . remember stewart's three-TO game? roby tipped the first one right into his arms. . . besides, how many picks do you honestly expect from the nickle back on a defense that no one really wants to attack with the pass? when teams are busy running it down your throat, or throwing to their backs and TEs, how many chances for INTs is roby really getting? i maintain that his opportunity to impact play ratio is plenty solid. . .

spikerman
02-11-2017, 05:14 PM
Have higher standards, bitches.

Don't tell us what kinds of standards to have!

King87
02-11-2017, 05:17 PM
quality over quantity. . . and as i noted, he was involved in more turnovers than the ones he is credited with. . . remember stewart's three-TO game? roby tipped the first one right into his arms. . . besides, how many picks do you really expect from the nickle back on a defense that no one really wants to attack with the pass?when teams are busy running it down your throat, or throwing to their backs and TEs, how many chances for INTs is roby really getting? i maintain that his opportunity to impact play ratio is plenty solid. . .

Tipped balls are counted as pass defensed if memory serves, Lord Dogginton.

You would be surprised how many picks a nickle guy can get when the QB has to throw under pressure and can't go to the first read.

Solid is not playmaker. We're using a different gauge of measurement I suppose.

King87
02-11-2017, 05:17 PM
Don't tell us what kinds of standards to have!

Ahem:

Have a higher standard, biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttttttttttt t...

I can't bring myself to disrespect you.


Sigh.

slim
02-11-2017, 05:32 PM
he has a knack for coming up with turnovers (including tips that other guys pick) at critical moments in games. . . the jamaal charles fumble return immediately comes to mind, as does the INT on the two-point conversion to beat new england in last year's AFCCG. . . he certainly still has room to grow and become more consistent, but i do think of him as a playmaker. . .

Forced fumble in the playoffs last year against Pit. We probably lose if not for that play and no SB.

King87
02-11-2017, 05:36 PM
Pointing out a select number of big plays from a small sample size does not a good argument make.


I love you all.


Time for chicken.

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 05:42 PM
Don't tell us what kinds of standards to have!

Did you drink that bells whisky I gave you?

Just since I know you drink oban, and also lecture people on standards, I thought that I would ask your thoughts on the bottle of bells scotch.......

spikerman
02-11-2017, 05:47 PM
Did you drink that bells whisky I gave you?

Just since I know you drink oban, and also lecture people on standards, I thought that I would ask your thoughts on the bottle of bells scotch.......

Of course I did. I liked it. Bring some more this year!

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 05:51 PM
Of course I did. I liked it. Bring some more this year!

I thought that might be below your standards!!!

I'm now drinking "the famous grouse", which is very similar.

I am hopeful we are at home but not to the giants the weekend of the 8th oct

The buffs play AZ at home, there is a race in boulder and the flight is about $500

spikerman
02-11-2017, 05:56 PM
I thought that might be below your standards!!!

I'm now drinking "the famous grouse", which is very similar.

I am hopeful we are at home but not to the giants the weekend of the 8th oct

The buffs play AZ at home, there is a race in boulder and the flight is about $500

No way, dude. I'll have some Oban for you when you come too. The schedule should come out the third week of April or so. There are some good games so just figure it out once it gets released. No rush on my end.

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 05:58 PM
No way, dude. I'll have some Oban for you when you come too. The schedule should come out the third week of April or so. There are some good games so just figure it out once it gets released. No rush on my end.

We will talk soon in April. Until then continue sending nudes.

King87
02-11-2017, 05:59 PM
No way, dude. I'll have some Oban for you when you come too. The schedule should come out the third week of April or so. There are some good games so just figure it out once it gets released. No rush on my end.

Oban is delicious.

spikerman
02-11-2017, 06:00 PM
We will talk soon in April. Until then continue sending nudes.

Like you had any choice.

spikerman
02-11-2017, 06:00 PM
Oban is delicious.

You've got good taste. Not to be confused with Dave who tastes good.

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 06:00 PM
Oban is delicious.

I'm drinking the scotch equivalent of Jack Daniels. Very basic, very cliche, but gets the job done

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 06:01 PM
Like you had any choice.

Haha, awesome!!!

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 06:02 PM
You've got good taste. Not to be confused with Dave who tastes good.
Even more awesome!!

King87
02-11-2017, 06:09 PM
I'm drinking the scotch equivalent of Jack Daniels. Very basic, very cliche, but gets the job done

Scotch is delicious. In the states people who drink scotch do so out of status. Ironically, if you tell them that in other countries scotch is mixed, a lot of people prefer blended scotch, and some people do scotch and sodas, their head explodes.

So I say 'cheers'.

spikerman
02-11-2017, 06:53 PM
I think you're right about it being a "status" drink but not for me. When I have some it's usually here at my house and I drink alone. I just think it's very smooth. I also like a good rye.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-11-2017, 06:57 PM
I'm sorry to say, I've tried a couple scotches and didn't like them. However, I do really enjoy a good bourbon now and then.

spikerman
02-11-2017, 07:00 PM
I'm sorry to say, I've tried a couple scotches and didn't like them. However, I do really enjoy a good bourbon now and then.

Where is the "low five" button?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-11-2017, 07:21 PM
Where is the "low five" button?

In all fairness, it's been 20 years since I tried it. It was too hot for me. Bourbon seemed to be much smoother to me at the time. So, I stuck with bourbon.

Hey, at least I didn't trip on national tv!

spikerman
02-11-2017, 07:23 PM
In all fairness, it's been 20 years since I tried it. It was too hot for me. Bourbon seemed to be much smoother to me at the time. So, I stuck with bourbon.

Hey, at least I didn't trip on national tv!
Hmmm I'm not sure what the tripping is a reference to. It was my biggest fear but I was damn nimble out there. :D

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 07:23 PM
I'm sorry to say, I've tried a couple scotches and didn't like them. However, I do really enjoy a good bourbon now and then.

Define a good and bad bourbon for me?

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 07:26 PM
A bad scotch is what I gave to spikerman.ca good scotch is what he shared with me. Yes, I realize the irony .

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-11-2017, 07:35 PM
Define a good and bad bourbon for me?

Don't drink cheap bourbon, such as wild turkey.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-11-2017, 07:36 PM
Makers Mark, Knob Creek, Booker, and Baisel Hayden are all really good bourbons.

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 07:37 PM
Makers Mark, Knob Creek, Booker, and Baisel Hayden are all really good bourbons.

What about bulllit

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-11-2017, 07:46 PM
What about bulllit

I've never tried it, but if you ship me a bottle I'll give you an honest review

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 07:51 PM
I've never tried it, but if you ship me a bottle I'll give you an honest review the irony that it shells oct grrr argh an authentic western Woodley

Valar Morghulis
02-11-2017, 07:53 PM
the irony that it shells oct grrr argh an authentic western Woodley

The edit is, an authentic western whiskey

dogfish
02-11-2017, 09:37 PM
Tipped balls are counted as pass defensed if memory serves, Lord Dogginton.

You would be surprised how many picks a nickle guy can get when the QB has to throw under pressure and can't go to the first read.

Solid is not playmaker. We're using a different gauge of measurement I suppose.

no, you just have inflated expectations. . . find me one nickel back who had more than four picks last year. . .

hell, talib only had three picks-- i guess he's not a playmaker either by your standards. . .



Pointing out a select number of big plays from a small sample size does not a good argument make.


proclaiming your rightness with no support at all does not make a better argument. . . our anecdotes show that roby is clutch-- he comes up with big plays when we need them most, and has done so a number of times. . . no one is trying to make him into the second coming of deion. . .

King87
02-11-2017, 10:18 PM
no, you just have inflated expectations. . . find me one nickel back who had more than four picks last year. . .

hell, talib only had three picks-- i guess he's not a playmaker either by your standards. . .




proclaiming your rightness with no support at all does not make a better argument. . . our anecdotes show that roby is clutch-- he comes up with big plays when we need them most, and has done so a number of times. . . no one is trying to make him into the second coming of deion. . .

Yeah, because they throw a ton at Talib.

There's more ways to make plays than INTs...

I'm simply saying that the evidence presented doesn't warrant him being a playmaker. And, as mentioned before, specific plays from a small sample pool doesn't really work.

Poopface.

dogfish
02-11-2017, 10:23 PM
Yeah, because they throw a ton at Talib.

There's more ways to make plays than INTs...

I'm simply saying that the evidence presented doesn't warrant him being a playmaker. And, as mentioned before, specific plays from a small sample pool doesn't really work.

Poopface.

pretty sure they throw more at the guy who plays every snap than the guy who plays 60% of the snaps. . . ;)

also, you're the one who brought up roby's three turnovers, and said those weren't playmaker numbers. . . since i've now torpedoed that argument, would you care to re-define your parameters to something that better suits your argument, or will you just yield the point?

:D

Hawgdriver
02-11-2017, 10:34 PM
Yeah, because they throw a ton at Talib.

There's more ways to make plays than INTs...

I'm simply saying that the evidence presented doesn't warrant him being a playmaker. And, as mentioned before, specific plays from a small sample pool doesn't really work.

Poopface.

Arguing Roby is not a playmaker when he has a history of making big plays is quite the technical challenge in rhetoric. Honing your craft, I see.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-11-2017, 10:35 PM
The edit is, an authentic western whiskey

I liked the original version. I thought you were getting freakishly Scottish with me.
So, have you tried the bourbon you mentioned?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-11-2017, 10:57 PM
The edit is, an authentic western whiskey

To further the irony, the distillery is in Kentucky, which is 1800 miles from Idaho. I'm not sure what's western about it, other than the family patriarch moving west of the original colonies.

Take that you pompous Brit!

King87
02-11-2017, 11:34 PM
**** yeah ho

HORSEPOWER 56
02-12-2017, 01:05 AM
Makers Mark, Knob Creek, Booker, and Baisel Hayden are all really good bourbons.

Blanton's is my personal favorite. Sooo good. Breckenridge (which is made in CO, BTW) is also very good bourbon. I'm a bourbon man myself. Bulliet bourbon (what Dave was referring to) is also pretty good. It's easy to find and better than Jim Beam or Wild Turkey. You can get the big bottle at Costco for around 30 bucks.

Valar Morghulis
02-12-2017, 03:09 AM
Ok, I think I will give makers mark or bulliet a go.....

Al to answer your question. I have drank Jim beam and Jack d only.

I always drank then with coke. Or as a shot with lime. But I haven't drank any bourbon in a long long time.

The reason I asked about bulliet is the way that it is marketed, makes it look like a old fashioned frontier whiskey.... Not sure how genuine that is

dogfish
02-12-2017, 04:17 AM
Ok, I think I will give makers mark or bulliet a go.....

Al to answer your question. I have drank Jim beam and Jack d only.

I always drank then with coke. Or as a shot with lime. But I haven't drank any bourbon in a long long time.

The reason I asked about bulliet is the way that it is marketed, makes it look like a old fashioned frontier whiskey.... Not sure how genuine that is

it's not genuine at all. . . neither is anything else that markets itself as "frontier" anything. . . it is, however, a very solid bourbon for its price point. . . and i think their rye may be better than their bourbon. . .

Joel
02-12-2017, 05:16 AM
No one is knocking Roby. But he's not been a playmaker. Talib is a playmaker. That's a pretty big difference. I like Roby. I liked him out of college. Maybe he can turn into a playmaker because he's young and those things don't happen over night. To say Talib is better (he is) isn't a knock on Roby because Talib is better than just about every corner in the league.

Talib does what Harris does. If you watched Talib you'd see a guy who can do everything on the field. I think that's the biggest problem you have because you know that Talib is good, but you don't know how good he is, or why he's so good.
Talib does NOT do what Harris does. Talib plays the ball to deny or intercept passes, which can turn into big gains if he misjudges it (e.g. Carolinas SB TD drive.) Harris plays the ball and man to deny catches and make quick tackles when the ball is caught, which is critical now that everyone's discovered YACs importance. He doesn't play the run Champ taught Harris to do: That's why Harris has >50 solo tackles all but ONE season, which Talib's only managed TWICE.

Now, which is REALLY the more "complete" CB? I'm not saying Talib's Deion, but bumping a guy off a route is much less punishing than tackling (especially long term,) and incompletes preclude tackles entirely. I can't find TFL stats on either player, but bet Harris has more in half as many seasons.


Harris thrives against slot guys because slot guys tend not to run blisteringly fast.
Tell that to Wes Welker, or Dallas Clark, or Brandon Stokley. Or Emmanuel Sanders for that matter, a guy who left Pitt in part because he didn't want to play the slot.


Talib doesn't just bait QB's into picks. He can do that, but he also plays press coverage, bump-and-run, he played some zone in Tampa, etc. He can do it all. No qualifiers.

One personal foul or two a year is nothing.

He's played almost all of his games for us.

That forty time seems pretty important to a lot of GM's, and that's a step in the NFL. I still recall at the end of the season the announcer pointing out that Talib was running step for step with a WR who ran a 4.3 forty.

Talib is the shit.
Despite the conceit Talibs 4.44 is blazing but Harris' 4.48 plodding, the reality is bump and run is the only way EITHER can "play press" on a 4.3 guy, because "if he's even he's leavin." Of course Talib can play zone; that's much easier than staying step-for-step with a #1 WR, and is right in his wheelhouse anyway. A couple personal fouls/year is something because that's how guys get ejected and suspended, which doesn't help the team. Talib's played nearly all his Denver games, yes, but injuries start becoming frequent >30.


Resign Roby, sure. I like paying cornerbacks money when they're productive.
Roby has a 5th year option we're likely to exercise; the question's whether to re-sign WEBSTER, which should also be no question at all. Even if Talib finishes his contract that's only 3 more years, when he'll be 34, and is likely to slow and become more injury-prone much sooner. Hell, even Webster will be 29, and Harris 31.


I don't think of a guy who gets three turnovers in a season as a playmaker. I'm just going to be honest. And while being a playmaker is more than just turnovers -open field tackles, passes defensed, etc- he's a guy who has a handful of noteworthy of plays.

Have higher standards, bitches.
In that case, Talib hasn't been a playmaker since 2014. Have CONSISTENT standards. ;)

Joel
02-12-2017, 05:18 AM
I'm drinking the scotch equivalent of Jack Daniels. Very basic, very cliche, but gets the job done

I think you're right about it being a "status" drink but not for me. When I have some it's usually here at my house and I drink alone. I just think it's very smooth. I also like a good rye.
Same here. The Grouse is good, IMHO, and I was DEEPLY grateful for it during SB LXVIII; buying at Vinmonopolet put everything high end well out of my budget (sin taxes are statistically proven to be useless as anything but a poverty tax, but health policy makers keep right on trying anyway.)


I'm sorry to say, I've tried a couple scotches and didn't like them. However, I do really enjoy a good bourbon now and then.
Despite the name, bourbon has the unique advantage of being the sole "SUCK IT, WORLD!" liquor; I presume Jaded drinks nothing else (explaining much. ;))


the irony that it shells oct grrr argh an authentic western Woodley
Discussing whiskey (or whisky, if one prefers,) even scotch in particular, is no reason to slip into gaelic.


To further the irony, the distillery is in Kentucky, which is 1800 miles from Idaho. I'm not sure what's western about it, other than the family patriarch moving west of the original colonies.
Well, yeah; both the Northwest Territory and modern Mid-West are EAST of the Mississippi.


Ok, I think I will give makers mark or bulliet a go.....

Al to answer your question. I have drank Jim beam and Jack d only.

I always drank then with coke. Or as a shot with lime. But I haven't drank any bourbon in a long long time.

The reason I asked about bulliet is the way that it is marketed, makes it look like a old fashioned frontier whiskey.... Not sure how genuine that is
It's always a matter of taste, but I've always and strongly preferred Beam to Jack; that stuff's one (half) step up from turpentine. Maybe it mixes better; I always drink it straight (unless we count ice.)

LawDog
02-12-2017, 11:55 AM
Define a good and bad bourbon for me?

Next time you are in the States. Buy a bottle of Four Roses yellow label. Then buy any of the Four Roses small batch offerings. Taste them side by side. Then you will have your answer.

King87
02-12-2017, 01:01 PM
Next time you are in the States. Buy a bottle of Four Roses yellow label. Then buy any of the Four Roses small batch offerings. Taste them side by side. Then you will have your answer.

I like the way you talk.

Denver Native (Carol)
02-12-2017, 01:04 PM
Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 29m

Mike McCoy been doing OC work for a bit. What I like is that he adapts to players, QB's skill. #Broncos @DenverChannel

King87
02-12-2017, 01:16 PM
Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 29m

Mike McCoy been doing OC work for a bit. What I like is that he adapts to players, QB's skill. #Broncos @DenverChannel

I am pleased with the McCoy hiring.

Joel
02-12-2017, 01:45 PM
Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 29m

Mike McCoy been doing OC work for a bit. What I like is that he adapts to players, QB's skill. #Broncos @DenverChannel
What I dislike is that he's shown no sign of being able to develop any INCREASED skill in any of them. I've never understood the fetish for McCoy: A QB coach who "built" powerful offenses with a veteran Peyton Manning and Philip Rivers—what QB coach COULDN'T build a great offense with THAT kind of talent under center. He certainly never built anything with Orton or... that other guy; I'm reliably informed his SOLE playoff season with either was on the Ds back D DESPITE his offense.

You have to go all the way back to his days as offensive assistant for the '03 and '05 and '08 Panthers to find a Mike McCoy playoff team, and all but the last were bad offenses that reached the playoffs on the strength of a top 10 D (and a lot of pure LUCK.) The '08 Panthers was 19th in passing yards and 3rd in rushing yards, but I doubt that powerful ground game had much to do with the "Passing coordinator & quarterbacks coach." I hope for the best, but expect little.

TXBRONC
02-12-2017, 02:26 PM
Joel, you were envious of the Bengals get a tackle in the second round. Ironically Whitworth was a tackle taken in the somewhere in the second-fourth round.

Great lineman are found everywhere.

Agreed, but I think for the most part the best tackles are found at the top, nevertheless you can find solid offensive linemen in other parts of the draft.

TXBRONC
02-12-2017, 02:29 PM
What I dislike is that he's shown no sign of being able to develop any INCREASED skill in any of them. I've never understood the fetish for McCoy: A QB coach who "built" powerful offenses with a veteran Peyton Manning and Philip Rivers—what QB coach COULDN'T build a great offense with THAT kind of talent under center. He certainly never built anything with Orton or... that other guy; I'm reliably informed his SOLE playoff season with either was on the Ds back D DESPITE his offense.

You have to go all the way back to his days as offensive assistant for the '03 and '05 and '08 Panthers to find a Mike McCoy playoff team, and all but the last were bad offenses that reached the playoffs on the strength of a top 10 D (and a lot of pure LUCK.) The '08 Panthers was 19th in passing yards and 3rd in rushing yards, but I doubt that powerful ground game had much to do with the "Passing coordinator & quarterbacks coach." I hope for the best, but expect little.


Jake Delhomme.

King87
02-12-2017, 02:33 PM
He helped Rivers have career years with a bad line and a bunch of weapons that got injured. That's not nothing. As TX pointed out, he did some solid work with Delhomme.

I think he's a solid guy.

MOtorboat
02-12-2017, 03:27 PM
What I dislike is that he's shown no sign of being able to develop any INCREASED skill in any of them. I've never understood the fetish for McCoy: A QB coach who "built" powerful offenses with a veteran Peyton Manning and Philip Rivers—what QB coach COULDN'T build a great offense with THAT kind of talent under center. He certainly never built anything with Orton or... that other guy; I'm reliably informed his SOLE playoff season with either was on the Ds back D DESPITE his offense.

You have to go all the way back to his days as offensive assistant for the '03 and '05 and '08 Panthers to find a Mike McCoy playoff team, and all but the last were bad offenses that reached the playoffs on the strength of a top 10 D (and a lot of pure LUCK.) The '08 Panthers was 19th in passing yards and 3rd in rushing yards, but I doubt that powerful ground game had much to do with the "Passing coordinator & quarterbacks coach." I hope for the best, but expect little.


Such anger.

spikerman
02-12-2017, 03:34 PM
What I dislike is that he's shown no sign of being able to develop any INCREASED skill in any of them. I've never understood the fetish for McCoy: A QB coach who "built" powerful offenses with a veteran Peyton Manning and Philip Rivers—what QB coach COULDN'T build a great offense with THAT kind of talent under center. He certainly never built anything with Orton or... that other guy; I'm reliably informed his SOLE playoff season with either was on the Ds back D DESPITE his offense.

You have to go all the way back to his days as offensive assistant for the '03 and '05 and '08 Panthers to find a Mike McCoy playoff team, and all but the last were bad offenses that reached the playoffs on the strength of a top 10 D (and a lot of pure LUCK.) The '08 Panthers was 19th in passing yards and 3rd in rushing yards, but I doubt that powerful ground game had much to do with the "Passing coordinator & quarterbacks coach." I hope for the best, but expect little.

Out of curiosity, what QBs did Kubiak turn into All Pros? Besides, the OC probably has less to do with it than the QB coach.

King87
02-12-2017, 03:36 PM
Out of curiosity, what QBs did Kubiak turn into All Pros? Besides, the OC probably has less to do with it than the QB coach.

He's going to tell you that Kubiak made a bunch of scrubs look good. None of those guys but Steve Young and Elway had any talent. At all. All Kubiak.

spikerman
02-12-2017, 03:40 PM
He's going to tell you that Kubiak made a bunch of scrubs look good. None of those guys but Steve Young and Elway had any talent. At all. All Kubiak.

I'm expecting Schaub.

King87
02-12-2017, 03:43 PM
I'm expecting Schaub.

All narratives most be spun in favor of Kubiak.

Joel
02-12-2017, 04:50 PM
Jake Delhomme.
Maybe. Delhomme wasn't that great, but I concede he went from 2 years of unemployment to at least a respectable starter with McCoy, then fell off a cliff and soon BACK out of the league when McCoy left for Denver. Like I say, I hope for the best, but still don't expect it.

It's hard to be objective though: Elway hired the EXACT dream team I begged for after 2013s beatdown, they IMMEDIATELY won a SB, but now they're ALL gone. It's like I was losing my house when I found out I inherited 10,000 Apples shares from an unknown relative, then turned on the TV and saw they were bankrupt.

King87
02-12-2017, 04:59 PM
Well, at least you got the DC right.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-12-2017, 05:03 PM
He helped Rivers have career years with a bad line and a bunch of weapons that got injured. That's not nothing. As TX pointed out, he did some solid work with Delhomme.

I think he's a solid guy.

I think the offense will be vastly improved with McCoy.

This isn't a knock on Kubiak, who is a fine coordinator in his own right, just not combined with HC duties.

slim
02-12-2017, 05:06 PM
I'm not a big McCoy fan, but the offense almost has to improve. The Slowick principle notwithstanding.

Joel
02-12-2017, 05:09 PM
Out of curiosity, what QBs did Kubiak turn into All Pros? Besides, the OC probably has less to do with it than the QB coach.
All Pros? Young, Elway and Manning were already All Pros, so none, but he arguably DID make the first two HoFers by getting them over the "can't win a SB" hump.

HOWEVER, Kubiak made a Pro Bowler out of EVERY SINGLE STARTING QB HE EVER COACHED, and that includes the likes of Griese, Plummer, Schaub; the sole "exception" is Siemian, whom Kubiak only had TWO SEASONS yet STILL would've played this years Pro Bowl if healthy. Say what one likes of Yates and Keenum, but the worse they are the better it speaks of Kubiak winning a playoff game with the first and the second winning a starting job, however briefly.

I'll take that what Kubiak did with Young, Elway and Manning (i.e. 4 SB wins) over what McCoy did with Manning and Rivers (i.e. 1 postseason win, against a Bengals team that has the second-longest playoff losing streak.) And I'll take what Kubiak did with Griese, Plummer, Schaub, Yates and Siemian (i.e. 7 playoff seasons) over what McCoy did with Delhomme, Orton and... that other guy (i.e. 4 playoff seasons.)

Except I won't, because McCoy's on the staff and Kubiak's not.

King87
02-12-2017, 05:12 PM
All Pros? Young, Elway and Manning were already All Pros, so none, but he arguably DID make the first two HoFers by getting them over the "can't win a SB" hump.

HOWEVER, Kubiak made a Pro Bowler out of EVERY SINGLE STARTING QB HE EVER COACHED, and that includes the likes of Griese, Plummer, Schaub; the sole "exception" is Siemian, whom Kubiak only had TWO SEASONS yet STILL would've played this years Pro Bowl if healthy. Say what one likes of Yates and Keenum, but the worse they are the better it speaks of Kubiak winning a playoff game with the first and the second winning a starting job, however briefly.

I'll take that what Kubiak did with Young, Elway and Manning (i.e. 4 SB wins) over what McCoy did with Manning and Rivers (i.e. 1 postseason win, against a Bengals team that has the second-longest playoff losing streak.) And I'll take what Kubiak did with Griese, Plummer, Schaub, Yates and Siemian (i.e. 7 playoff seasons) over what McCoy did with Delhomme, Orton and... that other guy (i.e. 4 playoff seasons.)

Except I won't, because McCoy's on the staff and Kubiak's not.

You act like those guys had no talent and nothing to do with their own success. But you also throw those guys all the blames when they faltered and give Kubiak none of the blame. You're doing that right now.

Look inward. Learn.