Coaching Hire Competition

[pnbronco]

Have you seen his body?

Ummmm yeah. I think he stayed in shape all year. Maybe the rest helped him heal....I wouldn't mind seeing him again....if only to test the waters.

So tell me about this new O-line coach...anyone that has seen what he's done with another team.

[Valar Morghulis]

Ummmm yeah.

Did you mean "yummmm"?

[spikerman]

Have you seen his body?

It's weird. You ask people the same thing about me.

[Valar Morghulis]

It's weird. You ask people the same thing about me.

I want to compare notes

[Poet]

I want to compare notes

Never change. You're my spirit animal.

[spikerman]

I want to compare notes

Ass

[spikerman]

I want to compare notes

You thinking about which team you want to see?

[Valar Morghulis]

You thinking about which team you want to see?

The Broncos?

[spikerman]

The Broncos?

You. Are. An. Ass.

[pnbronco]

It's weird. You ask people the same thing about me.

Yeah but .... well..... ummmmm, never mind.....:lol:

[spikerman]

Yeah but .... well..... ummmmm, never mind.....:lol:

Don't you dare diss me, missy. I'm dropping some tonnage.

[Nomad]

Don't you dare diss me, missy. I'm dropping some tonnage.

"clears throat, and whispers"......she is a ma'am. ;)

[pnbronco]

"clears throat, and whispers"......she is a ma'am. ;)

you better watch it Nomad....yeah the body is but the mind and spirit....still a missy.....:lol:

[pnbronco]

Don't you dare diss me, missy. I'm dropping some tonnage.

Louis is not a small man....but those arms....holy crap

You are a beautiful man inside and out and a great mind when we are not talking about Kubes..........:D

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Have you seen his body?

I've seen his masculine arms

[spikerman]

Louis is not a small man....but those arms....holy crap

You are a beautiful man inside and out and a great mind when we are not talking about Kubes..........:D

I'm going to quote you, but for the record, I liked Kubes as the HC, but not as the OC.

[Nomad]

you better watch it Nomad....yeah the body is but the mind and spirit....still a missy.....:lol:

Yes, ma'am....I mean missy :D

[pnbronco]

I'm going to quote you, but for the record, I liked Kubes as the HC, but not as the OC.

That's fair and if he had been able to give that up who knows he might still be around....don't make me cry...

[Valar Morghulis]

You. Are. An. Ass.

Thank. you.

[pnbronco]

Yes, ma'am....I mean missy :D

you're feeling pretty safe being so far away......:tsk:

[underrated29]

Vazquez has a lot of wear and tear on his body. He's probably better off not coming back.


Vaz has major back issues. He was out completely this year and will not be back- no pun. He is damaged good now sadly. Boss here for us his first couple years but it's all she wrote now. You are corect

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Vaz has major back issues. He was out completely this year and will not be back- no pun. He is damaged good now sadly. Boss here for us his first couple years but it's all she wrote now. You are corect
I find it quite pleasing you misspelled 'correct'.

[Simple Jaded]

Did they even interview Washburn?

To be honest, I heard/read his name so much I guess I just assumed that they did.

But now that I think about it this move wouldn't be a promotion for Washburn. Kuper would be a promotion.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 29m

#NFL source Confirms @NickiJhabvala report, Joe Woods hired as #Broncos DC as expected. Has confidence of Joseph, players @DenverChannel

[dogfish]

I've seen his masculine arms

you wanted them wrapped around you, didn't you?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 38m38 minutes ago

One NFC team requested interview w Woods for Defensive coordinator. #Broncos weren't losing him. Not unlike Oakland move w Musgrave-Downing

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 42m

Troy Renck Retweeted Nicki Jhabvala

As expected. Would attempted to keep Wade if this wasn't the plan. Players believe in Woods. @DenverChannel

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Nicki Jhabvala Retweeted
Cameron Wolfe ‏@CameronWolfe 27m

#Broncos will hire John Benton as their asst OL coach. 12 yrs of experience as lead OL coach including w/ Kubiak in Houston.

[Poet]

Nicki Jhabvala Retweeted
Cameron Wolfe ‏@CameronWolfe 27m

#Broncos will hire John Benton as their asst OL coach. 12 yrs of experience as lead OL coach including w/ Kubiak in Houston.

This is an interesting hire.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. — The Denver Broncos on Sunday agreed to terms with John Benton to be their assistant offensive line coach, Head Coach Vance Joseph announced.

Benton has 30 years of coaching experience, including 13 seasons coaching offensive lines in the NFL. He most recently served as Jacksonville’s offensive line coach in 2016 and previously worked in the NFL for Miami (2014-15), Houston (2006-13) and St. Louis (2004-05).

Benton's offensive line in Jacksonville during the 2016 season was among the NFL's most improved, allowing 17 fewer sacks (34) than a year earlier for the third-best improvement in the league. His unit allowed a sack on only 5.4 percent of pass attempts for the 10th-best mark in the NFL.

rest - http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Broncos-agree-to-terms-with-John-Benton-as-assistant-offensive-line-coach/632684b6-9100-4410-9048-f6e1d7d79c85

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 24m

#Broncos Chris Harris Jr. believes Joe Woods ready. "He's bright. A motivator. I can promise you this: no one works harder" @DenverChannel

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3m

#Broncos hire Joe Wood as DC. Talked to multiple players for my story. "We won't miss a beat" @DenverChannel

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 4m4 minutes ago

Andrew Mason Retweeted Thomas Clement

No denying that. And I think having Joseph, who learned so much from Kubiak & has similar traits (fairness, honesty w/ players) helps.

Andrew Mason added,
Thomas Clement @tclement22
@MaseDenver I can't wait for OTA's to begin I'm excited with the new direction. I will always miss Kubs though, was a great man and coach!

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 14m

Good hires in Davidson & Benton as OL coaches. Lot of combined knowledge. Experience in zone & power blocking. Will play to OLs' strengths.

[Simple Jaded]

Benton, haha Joel.

Suck it WORLD!

[Poet]

With all this talk about playing to our guys strengths it sort of feels like Kubiak didn't........

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

you wanted them wrapped around you, didn't you?

Negative ghost rider-

[FanInAZ]

I find it quite pleasing you misspelled 'correct'.

That's all write, every is excepted here.

[Simple Jaded]

With all this talk about playing to our guys strengths it sort of feels like Kubiak didn't........

Tebow is a homo.......

[Simple Jaded]

If Toub is so great the Broncos should interview his ST's assistant, Brock Olivo, see if he's ready for ST's Coordinator job.

[Traveler]

With all this talk about playing to our guys strengths it sort of feels like Kubiak didn't........

That shoe might fit for Kubes. Seemingly forcing his system on the players.

[Simple Jaded]

These were his players, they weren't asked to do something they can't. At least not something they shouldn't be able to do.

[Poet]

These were his players, they weren't asked to do something they can't. At least not something they shouldn't be able to do.

I hope.

[Freyaka]

That shoe might fit for Kubes. Seemingly forcing his system on the players.

I love Kubes, but everything about last season felt like square peg, round hole to me...No adaptation or adjustment seemed to be happening. There are things we could have done to improve and it seemed like "let's just keep trying the same thing and hopefully the players will play better and it will work"

It kind of frustrated me that his go to answer was "we've just gotta play better" and avoid acknowledging the clear issues in coaching.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 40m

Bears assistant special teams coach Richard Hightower interviewed for Broncos' ST coordinator job today; Greg McMahon tomorrow. #9sports

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 49m

Greg McMahon most experienced special teams coordinator available. Past 9 years as Saints' ST boss. Victim of @jsimms1119 leap. #9sports

[Simple Jaded]

So you're saying Kubiak was using Ferrari's to deliver pizzas? Which players were the square pegs?

[Simple Jaded]

I love Kubes, but everything about last season felt like square peg, round hole to me...No adaptation or adjustment seemed to be happening. There are things we could have done to improve and it seemed like "let's just keep trying the same thing and hopefully the players will play better and it will work"

It kind of frustrated me that his go to answer was "we've just gotta play better" and avoid acknowledging the clear issues in coaching.

For example?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 23m

#Broncos make it official, announce Joe Woods as new defensive coordinator. "We won't miss a beat with him," @BMarshh54 told @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 29m

#Broncos Joseph working through special teams coach candidates. Looking for best fit. Done terrific work assembling staff @DenverChannel

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 33m

#Broncos continue filling out coaching staff. Marcus Robertson is the new secondary coach. Inherits No Fly Zone. Great gig @DenverChannel

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 39m

Marcus Robertson should complete top end of Def staff. Woods replaces Phillips as DC. Kollar (DL) Herring (LB) Pagac (OLB) return. #9sports

[Dapper Dan]

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 39m

Marcus Robertson should complete top end of Def staff. Woods replaces Phillips as DC. Kollar (DL) Herring (LB) Pagac (OLB) return. #9sports

Yaaas. I'm happy Kollar is back.

[dogfish]

Yaaas. I'm happy Kollar is back.

it's kind of a big deal. . .

[Poet]

it's kind of a big deal. . .

just like you!

[NightTerror218]

So most of defense staff is retained. Big deal

[Joel]

So you're saying Kubiak was using Ferrari's to deliver pizzas? Which players were the square pegs?
Pretty obvious, really: He kept expecting the offensive linemen to BLOCK, but a GOOD coach would've had them do what THEY'RE good at (whatever THAT is....)

I genuinely don't know what people expected from him. He had a raw rookie QB and a second year 7th rounder behind a Swiss cheese line, and lost his starting RB for the season and had to promote another rookie to starter: What, precisely, do people think he should've done differently, or COULD have done better?

I wish Joseph luck with a fanbase where IMMEDIATELY WINNING A SB isn't good enough: Unless you do it EVERY year you're a bum.

[Davii]

Pretty obvious, really: He kept expecting the offensive linemen to BLOCK, but a GOOD coach would've had them do what THEY'RE good at (whatever THAT is....)

I genuinely don't know what people expected from him. He had a raw rookie QB and a second year 7th rounder behind a Swiss cheese line, and lost his starting RB for the season and had to promote another rookie to starter: What, precisely, do people think he should've done differently, or COULD have done better?

I wish Joseph luck with a fanbase where IMMEDIATELY WINNING A SB isn't good enough: Unless you do it EVERY year you're a bum.

Nobody has called Kubiak a bum Joel. You're overreacting to a few people thinking he could've done a much better job this year, something he readily admitted and cited as one of the reasons he decided to retire, that he just couldn't do the job the way he wanted to anymore.

[Freyaka]

So most of defense staff is retained. Big deal

But wait? I thought our defensive sky was falling? :D

The further we get into this whole Joseph as coach thing, the less apprehensive I'm getting.

[Cugel]

I love Kubes, but everything about last season felt like square peg, round hole to me...No adaptation or adjustment seemed to be happening. There are things we could have done to improve and it seemed like "let's just keep trying the same thing and hopefully the players will play better and it will work"

It kind of frustrated me that his go to answer was "we've just gotta play better" and avoid acknowledging the clear issues in coaching.

The acquired a bunch of guys they THOUGHT would strengthen the OL and hence the running game. The stronger running game and OL was supposed to make it easier on Siemian or Lynch to succeed despite their inexperience.

No part of that plan worked. First, they forced Peyton out so they could make Osweiler the starter. Only he bolted for Houston and a lot more $. Then they signed Butt-fumbler to be the starter, only he flamed out. Then Lynch showed in the pre-season he's not ready for prime time. That left them starting Siemian, which suited Kubiak & his offensive coaches OK, but irritated Elway and his personnel staff who spent probably more than 1,000 hours evaluating QBs before carefully deciding to move up in the first round and draft Lynch. They hoped Lynch would progress to the point where he could start games late in the year and do well.

Instead he only got into games because Siemian was injured and failed hard in the games he played.

The OL got worse as the season progressed, the DL never recovered from the loss of Malik Jackson, teams started running up the middle on the defense, and the team really missed LB Danny Trevathan's cover skills.

Kubiak suffered his "cardiac incident" and Elway asked him to give up the play calling responsibilities. As Kubiak stated in his exit presser, he tried that for a couple of games, but he concluded that "I have to do things my way." He went back to calling the plays, but the offensive performance simply got worse and worse and the team failed to make the playoffs the year after wining the SB.

Hence Kubiak stepped down, in part due to medical issues, and in part due to the disagreements with Elway about the development of Paxton Lynch. Siemian was clearly Kubiak's guy, while Elway remains convinced that Lynch has the greater upside potential due to their scouting of him. The last straw was that in the meaningless season finale, Kubiak never even bothered to play Lynch at all.

That was Kubiak's making a point with Elway that Siemian "is my guy, and if I'm going out, I want to go out playing my guys." He's loyal to a fault is Kubiak.

So, Elway brought in Vance Joseph and coach McCoy to specifically revamp the offense and coach up Paxton Lynch. And Trevor Siemian if he stays on the team.

Last year was a giant cluster-bomb of fail all around and a large part of it was institutional confusion and conflict.

The OL aren't really all as bad as they played last season. I think that was part of the reason Elway brought in McCoy and Jeff Davidson to coach up the OL. We'll see how that works out.

[Northman]

Pretty obvious, really: He kept expecting the offensive linemen to BLOCK, but a GOOD coach would've had them do what THEY'RE good at (whatever THAT is....)

I genuinely don't know what people expected from him. He had a raw rookie QB and a second year 7th rounder behind a Swiss cheese line, and lost his starting RB for the season and had to promote another rookie to starter: What, precisely, do people think he should've done differently, or COULD have done better?

I wish Joseph luck with a fanbase where IMMEDIATELY WINNING A SB isn't good enough: Unless you do it EVERY year you're a bum.

Its amazing that with two different franchises its everyone else's fault but the HC when the offense doesnt perform the way it should. Sorry, i like Kubiak but he had some serious problems from a coaching standpoint and your love affair with him is flat out creepy.

[Cugel]

But wait? I thought our defensive sky was falling? :D

The further we get into this whole Joseph as coach thing, the less apprehensive I'm getting.

A lot of fans really wanted Kyle Shanahan because his offenses are clearly good wherever he goes, and Denver's offense is terrible. But, we don't really know whether either of these guys will make a good head coach.

For one thing, if they had waited and let Vance Joseph go to the airport, he would have signed to coach another team, because he had several other interviews set up and he was the #1 possible coaching hire this offeason other than Shanahan who probably won't be available until after the SB. And by then all the good assistant coaches they wanted to hire would be gone to other teams. It really hurts assistants if their teams are still in the playoffs because teams want to get rolling immediately with their new staff, not wait a month until the Falcons or Patriots are done playing. That certainly cost McMoron any choice (the only HC opening left was SF which he did not want) and may cost Shanahan a chance this year too (unless he wants to go to SF).

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
Pretty obvious, really: He kept expecting the offensive linemen to BLOCK, but a GOOD coach would've had them do what THEY'RE good at (whatever THAT is....)

I genuinely don't know what people expected from him. He had a raw rookie QB and a second year 7th rounder behind a Swiss cheese line, and lost his starting RB for the season and had to promote another rookie to starter: What, precisely, do people think he should've done differently, or COULD have done better?

I wish Joseph luck with a fanbase where IMMEDIATELY WINNING A SB isn't good enough: Unless you do it EVERY year you're a bum.

Kubiak's problems were not with the fan base, but with Elway. He and Elway had different ideas about how to fix the problems on the team. That was a big part of the reason Kubiak isn't here anymore. Yes, medical issues were part of it, but the offensive failures contributed significantly to his stress problems.

[Buff]

The acquired a bunch of guys they THOUGHT would strengthen the OL and hence the running game. The stronger running game and OL was supposed to make it easier on Siemian or Lynch to succeed despite their inexperience.

No part of that plan worked. First, they forced Peyton out so they could make Osweiler the starter. Only he bolted for Houston and a lot more $. Then they signed Butt-fumbler to be the starter, only he flamed out. Then Lynch showed in the pre-season he's not ready for prime time. That left them starting Siemian, which suited Kubiak & his offensive coaches OK, but irritated Elway and his personnel staff who spent probably more than 1,000 hours evaluating QBs before carefully deciding to move up in the first round and draft Lynch. They hoped Lynch would progress to the point where he could start games late in the year and do well.

Instead he only got into games because Siemian was injured and failed hard in the games he played.

The OL got worse as the season progressed, the DL never recovered from the loss of Malik Jackson, teams started running up the middle on the defense, and the team really missed LB Danny Trevathan's cover skills.

Kubiak suffered his "cardiac incident" and Elway asked him to give up the play calling responsibilities. As Kubiak stated in his exit presser, he tried that for a couple of games, but he concluded that "I have to do things my way." He went back to calling the plays, but the offensive performance simply got worse and worse and the team failed to make the playoffs the year after wining the SB.

Hence Kubiak stepped down, in part due to medical issues, and in part due to the disagreements with Elway about the development of Paxton Lynch. Siemian was clearly Kubiak's guy, while Elway remains convinced that Lynch has the greater upside potential due to their scouting of him. The last straw was that in the meaningless season finale, Kubiak never even bothered to play Lynch at all.

That was Kubiak's making a point with Elway that Siemian "is my guy, and if I'm going out, I want to go out playing my guys." He's loyal to a fault is Kubiak.

So, Elway brought in Vance Joseph and coach McCoy to specifically revamp the offense and coach up Paxton Lynch. And Trevor Siemian if he stays on the team.

Last year was a giant cluster-bomb of fail all around and a large part of it was institutional confusion and conflict.

The OL aren't really all as bad as they played last season. I think that was part of the reason Elway brought in McCoy and Jeff Davidson to coach up the OL. We'll see how that works out.

I think this fictional narrative would make for a great screen play! :D Seriously though, some of what you say here is rooted in truth but I'd take issue with the following:

1.) I think the QB drama you imply is overblown. Keep in mind Elway kept Siemian on a Super Bowl winning 53 man roster because he thought enough of his abilities to know that he may have a future when Manning retired. Nobody was handed the job - everyone was given the ability to win it - and Siemian clearly won the job based on performance relative to the other 2 options. I simply have a hard time believing that Elway wanted to play Lynch despite not being ready for primetime, as you noted.

2.) Nobody forced Peyton out - it was obvious to everyone in the world that his play had declined significantly.

3.) I am afraid that the OL really was as bad as they looked - they should have had the benefit of playing with a more mobile QB, ditching the hybrid scheme that we implemented with Peyton and committing to a more traditional ZBS rushing attack - and they were even worse than the year prior... And keep in mind the OL imploded against Seattle in the Super Bowl - so I'm thinking another overhaul is in order (though we may be stuck with Okung for another year) and Paradis will return... Beyond that - let's tear it down and start over.

[Northman]

I think this fictional narrative would make for a great screen play! :D Seriously though, some of what you say here is rooted in truth but I'd take issue with the following:

1.) I think the QB drama you imply is overblown. Keep in mind Elway kept Siemian on a Super Bowl winning 53 man roster because he thought enough of his abilities to know that he may have a future when Manning retired. Nobody was handed the job - everyone was given the ability to win it - and Siemian clearly won the job based on performance relative to the other 2 options. I simply have a hard time believing that Elway wanted to play Lynch despite not being ready for primetime, as you noted.

2.) Nobody forced Peyton out - it was obvious to everyone in the world that his play had declined significantly.

3.) I am afraid that the OL really was as bad as they looked - they should have had the benefit of playing with a more mobile QB, ditching the hybrid scheme that we implemented with Peyton and committing to a more traditional ZBS rushing attack - and they were even worse than the year prior... And keep in mind the OL imploded against Seattle in the Super Bowl - so I'm thinking another overhaul is in order (though we may be stuck with Okung for another year) and Paradis will return... Beyond that - let's tear it down and start over.

Yea, Siemian even beat out Sanchez before the season. So while Sanchez is hardly a great QB the fact that Siemian won it over a veteran says that the organization had confidence in him to start and finish the season.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 33m

#Broncos' Joseph confirmed to Pro Football Talk what I've been saying. Defensive assistants staying: Kollar, Herring, Pagac
@DenverChannel

[Hawgdriver]

Very info-taining, Cugel! You should create a youtube channel where you deliver these segments with the use of goofy props and Madden-like antics. Ham it up a bit and clean up the domineering windbaggery. I would subscribe and give you a like.

[Davii]

Very info-taining, Cugel! You should create a youtube channel where you deliver these segments with the use of goofy props and Madden-like antics. Ham it up a bit and clean up the domineering windbaggery. I would subscribe and give you a like.

I am still waiting for the day I see you subscribed to my YouTube channel. :freedom-boner:

[BroncoJoe]

I'm shocked you guys read that.

[Joel]

Kubiak's problems were not with the fan base, but with Elway. He and Elway had different ideas about how to fix the problems on the team. That was a big part of the reason Kubiak isn't here anymore. Yes, medical issues were part of it, but the offensive failures contributed significantly to his stress problems.Yes: Kubiak wanted to fix the teams problems and Elway didn't, which certainly raised the stress level for both. Elways disinterest in the offensive line (i.e. the thing that transformed him from "perennial NFC whipping boy" to "back-to-back champion) in favor of just riding a HoF QB and D to victory (something that NEVER worked even for HIM as a player) made our offense hopeless. That's more likely to get worse under a secondary coach than better.

The fanbase didn't force out Kubiak, and I doubt anything but the stress of trying to salvage a dumpster offense despite NO foundation on which to build did. My point is that the bulk of the fanbase greatly preferred to blame their former backup QB for that than their first ballot HoFer who started 5 SBs and won 2. That's expected, but not especially rational.

[MOtorboat]

Yes: Kubiak wanted to fix the teams problems and Elway didn't, which certainly raised the stress level for both. Elways disinterest in the offensive line (i.e. the thing that transformed him from "perennial NFC whipping boy" to "back-to-back champion) in favor of just riding a HoF QB and D to victory (something that NEVER worked even for HIM as a player) made our offense hopeless. That's more likely to get worse under a secondary coach than better.

The fanbase didn't force out Kubiak, and I doubt anything but the stress of trying to salvage a dumpster offense despite NO foundation on which to build did. My point is that the bulk of the fanbase greatly preferred to blame their former backup QB for that than their first ballot HoFer who started 5 SBs and won 2. That's expected, but not especially rational.

:laugh:

Oh dear.

[Poet]

We know if Elway ran the team like he did we would win a SB. We have no idea how good we would have been with a better line and a drastically worse defense. If you spend the money on the line (assuming those guys are there) then tick off Talib (we don't win a SB with him, period), Ware, and Ward.

Or maybe we mix and match and we don't have a dominant line or a dominant defense. Sometimes the middle of the road doesn't get it done, either.

There was an expectation under Kubiak that the line would get better via coaching and scheming. While Kubiak isn't an offensive line coach, he certainly didn't find any coaches -he had personnel power- that culd coach our guys up, and we didn't scheme away issues, either. Ironically, our run down QB that some people didn't want could do that.

[Joel]

We know if Elway ran the team like he did we would win a SB. We have no idea how good we would have been with a better line and a drastically worse defense. If you spend the money on the line (assuming those guys are there) then tick off Talib (we don't win a SB with him, period), Ware, and Ward.

Or maybe we mix and match and we don't have a dominant line or a dominant defense. Sometimes the middle of the road doesn't get it done, either.

There was an expectation under Kubiak that the line would get better via coaching and scheming. While Kubiak isn't an offensive line coach, he certainly didn't find any coaches -he had personnel power- that culd coach our guys up, and we didn't scheme away issues, either. Ironically, our run down QB that some people didn't want could do that.

Ah, it's all so clear now: I'll be an All Pro lineman as soon as I find the right guy to coach me up! I'm in my 40s, go ~170 lbs. and never even played JHS football, but none of that matters with a COMPETENT coach. Can't polish a turd, man. The argument is basically:

"Kubiak and Dennison couldn't turn a bunch of injury-prone 4th round picks and bargain bin FAs into quality starters despite TWO WHOLE YEARS of trying!"

No kidding: Who could? Especially with Barone, a guy who's gone back and forth coaching our TEs and OL since 2009 but has yet to produce ANY decent blocker. Remember what Ryan Clady was like BEFORE Clancy Barone (i.e. an All Pro who'd NEVER allowed ANY sacks?)

If you want to insist Kubiak just piggy-backed Wade to a SB, then so did Elway (his blueprint sure didn't win any championships before Wade: It took the greatest passing season EVER just to reach the 2013 SB, where we got badly blown out because we couldn't protect the GoAT nor give him enough run support to stay out of 3rd and long.) Of course, Elway decided Wade was overpriced, so he's gone now; let's see what happens next....

[MOtorboat]

Your boy Kubiak retained him. It's pretty ridiculous to assert that your offensive genius hero had nothing to do with the offense's failures.

[Poet]

Ah, it's all so clear now: I'll be an All Pro lineman as soon as I find the right guy to coach me up! I'm in my 40s, go ~170 lbs. and never even played JHS football, but none of that matters with a COMPETENT coach. Can't polish a turd, man. The argument is basically:

"Kubiak and Dennison couldn't turn a bunch of injury-prone 4th round picks and bargain bin FAs into quality starters despite TWO WHOLE YEARS of trying!"

No kidding: Who could? Especially with Barone, a guy who's gone back and forth coaching our TEs and OL since 2009 but has yet to produce ANY decent blocker. Remember what Ryan Clady was like BEFORE Clancy Barone (i.e. an All Pro who'd NEVER allowed ANY sacks?)

If you want to insist Kubiak just piggy-backed Wade to a SB, then so did Elway (his blueprint sure didn't win any championships before Wade: It took the greatest passing season EVER just to reach the 2013 SB, where we got badly blown out because we couldn't protect the GoAT nor give him enough run support to stay out of 3rd and long.) Of course, Elway decided Wade was overpriced, so he's gone now; let's see what happens next....

Silly Joel - of course not everyone is an all-pro lineman. Doesn't mean guys can't improve or produce. Joe Thomas is Walter Jones level good. Not every LT below him is bad.

The line got worse. It went from 20th to 24th. Am I not supposed to note the regression?

Barone was Kubiak's guy and Kubiak's call. He's the HC. He decides his personnel. Also, Elway was the guy who signed Ware, Ward, Talib, IIRC he found Stewart and Harris, too.

[Joel]

Your boy Kubiak retained him. It's pretty ridiculous to assert that your offensive genius hero had nothing to do with the offense's failures.
No: ELWAY retained him. Under both Fox and Kubiak, no less, as he shuffled back and forth between equally and consistently inept TEs and offensive linemen.

It's pretty ridiculous to assert a coach who's had highly successful offenses with literally ALL FOUR teams he previously coached, all the way back to Steve Youngs lone SB, is the reason blockers that SUCKED under Barone in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 didn't magically improve under him in 2015 or 2016. Especially with the dregs of draft picks and FA the lot of them were given to provide that improvement even AFTER our line became a league-wide laughing stock.

[Joel]

Silly Joel - of course not everyone is an all-pro lineman. Doesn't mean guys can't improve or produce. Joe Thomas is Walter Jones level good. Not every LT below him is bad.

The line got worse. It went from 20th to 24th. Am I not supposed to note the regression?

Barone was Kubiak's guy and Kubiak's call. He's the HC. He decides his personnel. Also, Elway was the guy who signed Ware, Ward, Talib, IIRC he found Stewart and Harris, too.
Sure: The OL coach we hired in 2009 was "the guy" of the HC we hired in 2015. Makes perfect sense. Barone was hired as TE coach at the same time and by the same guy who hired his own kid brother as OL coach; once the McDumbass Bros. were gone, Barone replaced the younger one for a few years with a garbage line, then went back to his garbage TEs; then—and ONLY then—did we hire Kubiak: But Barone was "his" guy. :rolleyes:

[MOtorboat]

No: ELWAY retained him. Under both Fox and Kubiak, no less, as he shuffled back and forth between equally and consistently inept TEs and offensive linemen.

It's pretty ridiculous to assert a coach who's had highly successful offenses with literally ALL FOUR teams he previously coached, all the way back to Steve Youngs lone SB, is the reason blockers that SUCKED under Barone in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 didn't magically improve under him in 2015 or 2016. Especially with the dregs of draft picks and FA the lot of them were given to provide that improvement even AFTER our line became a league-wide laughing stock.

The offensive line had three new starters in 2016.

[Poet]

Coaches have power over personnel. We've seen it in Denver, just now.

Kubiak kept him.

[MOtorboat]

Sure: The OL coach we hired in 2009 was "the guy" of the HC we hired in 2015. Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

It was Kubiak's choice to retain him.

[Joel]

It was Kubiak's choice to retain him.
Right, just as it was "Kubiaks" choice to search for his starting Gs in the 4th and 5th rounds, and his starting OTs at the ass end of the 2nd. Kubiak just HAD to have a 4th OLB in the 1st round of 2015: Because he's all about the D.

[Poet]

Right, just as it was "Kubiaks" choice to search for his starting Gs in the 4th and 5th rounds, and his starting OTs at the ass end of the 2nd. Kubiak just HAD to have a 4th OLB in the 1st round of 2015: Because he's all about the D.

So you think Elway loves that guy and just forced him on all the coaches? In spite of every other personnel choice?

Seriously?

[MOtorboat]

Right, just as it was "Kubiaks" choice to search for his starting Gs in the 4th and 5th rounds, and his starting OTs at the ass end of the 2nd. Kubiak just HAD to have a 4th OLB in the 1st round of 2015: Because he's all about the D.

You're about as unreasonable as it gets. He gave him two free agents and numerous draft picks and they couldn't coach them up.

[Joel]

So you think Elway loves that guy and just forced him on all the coaches? In spite of every other personnel choice?

Seriously?
I think Barone's far better at politics than coaching: How else could he survive both McDumbass' debacle AND Foxs even though BOTH units he went back and forth coaching were consistently terrible? He was here for EIGHT years, under two GMs and THREE head coaches and his players ALWAYS sucked; I challenge anyone to point to anything and say, "THIS success is why we kept Barone." We never even PROMOTED him, just shuffled him back and forth between equally bad TEs and OL.

No, the coach we hired in 2015 isn't why we kept the assistant we hired in 2009.

[Poet]

I think Barone's far better at politics than coaching: How else could he survive both McDumbass' debacle AND Foxs even though BOTH units he went back and forth coaching were consistently terrible? He was here for EIGHT years, under two GMs and THREE head coaches and his players ALWAYS sucked; I challenge anyone to point to anything and say, "THIS success is why we kept Barone." We never even PROMOTED him, just shuffled him back and forth between equally bad TEs and OL.

No, the coach we hired in 2015 isn't why we kept the assistant we hired in 2009.

If nothing else, I respect your angst towards McD, Joelio Jones.

In Denver, for as long as I have been on this board, coaches make their personnel moves. If Barone's politicking then Kubes got politicked, too. It seems almost impossible that JE is getting hoodwinked nd doesn't let coaches fire that one coach.

[Joel]

If nothing else, I respect your angst towards McD, Joelio Jones.

In Denver, for as long as I have been on this board, coaches make their personnel moves. If Barone's politicking then Kubes got politicked, too. It seems almost impossible that JE is getting hoodwinked nd doesn't let coaches fire that one coach.
He sucked for a 1½ years, but when McDumbass was fired, he wasn't; he sucked for 4½ years more, but when Fox "mutually parted," he didn't. Kubiak DID replace a LOT of coaches, especially on the badly ailing side of the ball he knows best: Barone just wasn't one of them—in fact, didn't he have a glowing ESPN profile last year about how his work on our patchwork offensive line so indispensably AIDED our championship?

It's quite possible Barone snowed Kubiak as well as he did McDumbass and Fox, but IMpossible that would've MATTERED if he hadn't been snowing Elway for over four years. As far as Denver HCs getting complete and sole discretion over their coordinators: It's been all of two days since someone here suggested Kubiaks health issues are just a cover for him refusing an ultimatum from Elway to fire evil OC Rick Dennison.

[Hawgdriver]

Coaches have power over personnel. We've seen it in Denver, just now.

Kubiak kept him.

You mean Siemian was Kubiak's pet. Maybe. Or maybe he won the camp competition to see who would get the most wins in 2016, and Lynch didn't steal the job when he had his chances?

:let'sfite: :brohug: :I'm complicated:

[Poet]

You mean Siemian was Kubiak's pet. Maybe. Or maybe he won the camp competition to see who would get the most wins in 2016, and Lynch didn't steal the job when he had his chances?

:let'sfite: :brohug: :I'm complicated:

We're talking about coaches, not the QB, tho.

[Hawgdriver]

Oh, Tom Clancy Barone. Wasn't he just a god-send according to some journalism early this season, for making moonshine out of a mudpuddle? Is he really deserving (of being fired)? He's a coach not a talent evaluator.

[Poet]

Oh, Tom Clancy Barone. Wasn't he just a god-send according to some journalism early this season, for making moonshine out of a mudpuddle? Is he really deserving (of being fired)? He's a coach not a talent evaluator.

I don't understand you, man. I feel like you walk into conversations without the context of the thread and the posts just to needle me. You big ******* needler.

[Hawgdriver]

I don't understand you, man. I feel like you walk into conversations without the context of the thread and the posts just to needle me. You big ******* needler.

Was the argument that Kubiak kept Barone ergo offense fail?

[Poet]

Was the argument that Kubiak kept Barone ergo offense fail?


More along the lines of Barone's failure does fall on Kubiak to a degree. It's okay, man. I won't be here much longer.

[Hawgdriver]

More along the lines of Barone's failure does fall on Kubiak to a degree. It's okay, man. I won't be here much longer.

What's up? Pm me.

[Joel]

Oh, Tom Clancy Barone. Wasn't he just a god-send according to some journalism early this season, for making moonshine out of a mudpuddle? Is he really deserving (of being fired)? He's a coach not a talent evaluator.
That one may have backfired: An attempt to explain away how injuries alone made a bad line WORSE under two coaches who'd made EVERY line they'd EVER coached—for THREE teams—spotlighted who'd been in charge of lines that were so bad for EIGHT YEARS that they got us blown out of SB XLVIII, Fox fired and PFM reduced to an invalid immediately after the best season of ANY PRO QB IN HISTORY.

Then after the fluff piece on Barone a line that just kept getting worse under him somehow managed to keep doing just that: Oops....

Actually, wait a minute: If the buck stops with Kubiak, don't those glowing stories about how Barone made champions of linemen he'd been making bums for six seasons make Kubiak the real hero? It's amazing how the same performance from the same team can make some coaches heroes yet others goats depending solely on how one feels about them personally, irrespective of their actual record, even with other teams (but hey, the '07-'08 Chargers and '04-'06 Falcons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clancy_Barone) blockers were elite, right? It's not like turning around the Bolts line is considered one of McCoys accomplishments.)

[Hawgdriver]

That one may have backfired: An attempt to explain away how injuries alone made a bad line WORSE under two coaches who'd made EVERY line they'd EVER coached—for THREE teams—spotlighted who'd been in charge of lines that were so bad for EIGHT YEARS that they got us blown out of SB XLVIII, Fox fired and PFM reduced to an invalid immediately after the best season of ANY PRO QB IN HISTORY.

Then after the fluff piece on Barone a line that just kept getting worse under him somehow managed to keep doing just that: Oops....

Actually, wait a minute: If the buck stops with Kubiak, don't those glowing stories about how Barone made champions of linemen he'd been making bums for six seasons make Kubiak the real hero? It's amazing how the same performance from the same team can make some coaches heroes yet others goats depending solely on how one feels about them personally, irrespective of their actual record, even with other teams (but hey, the '07-'08 Chargers and '04-'06 Falcons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clancy_Barone) blockers were elite, right? It's not like turning around the Bolts line is considered one of McCoys accomplishments.)

I'm joining late. Point?

[Joel]

I'm joining late. Point?
That Barone (somehow) flew under the radar with an endless string of putrid blockers he directly supervised for THREE head coaches—until Kubiak, Wade and PFM got him a Ring, thrusting him into a spotlight where trying to explain away his failures only EXPOSED them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but within a decade I think he'll be a small town HS coach who's players annually wonder whose stolen SB Ring is on display in his office.

[Hawgdriver]

You only supervise what the boss hires.

[Simple Jaded]

Even Fox had the good sense to move Barone back to TE's coach.

Sampro, Barone, Garcia, these are Kubiak's failures.

[Joel]

You only supervise what the boss hires.
Sure, I'm on record that Elway's totally screwed up the OL drafting and signings for years, but that was no more Kubiaks fault in 2015 or 2016 than from 2011-2014.


Even Fox had the good sense to move Barone back to TE's coach.
Because he was such an elite TE coach under both McDumbass and Fox; he gave us Julius "can't block the sun out of his eyes" Thomas and... um... er....


Sampro, Barone, Garcia, these are Kubiak's failures.
Right: Kubiak went up to Elway and said, "hey, let's draft a 1st round OLB to warm the bench, then till the end of the 2nd for a starting OT." TOTALLY sounds like him.

It's Kubiaks fault he didn't fire Barone in 2015, but Elway's off the hook for not firing him in 2015 OR 2010? Even though he signs the checks?

[Simple Jaded]

Joel, take it up with Klis...Sampro is Kubiak's guy. Kubiak kept Barone, his fault. As for not drafting a T instead of the future at OLB, there wasn't a T nearly close to the value they got with Ray. That's how the draft works, at least when you do it right.

Btw, Barone has coached three All-Pro players in his NFL career, all of them TE's.

[Joel]

Joel, take it up with Klis...Sampro is Kubiak's guy. Kubiak kept Barone, his fault. As for not drafting a T instead of the future at OLB, there wasn't a T nearly close to the value they got with Ray. That's how the draft works, at least when you do it right.
That remains to be seen: If the Best Player Left at Dallas or Indys next pick is a QB, should they draft Dak or Lucks successor, or work on the impotent D that's keeping their great QBs from winning any playoff games? When you're VERY FIRST PICK spend TWO-THIRDS OF THE SEASON BENCHED, you're NOT "doing it right." What kept us out of the playoffs this year, Wares back, or our Swiss cheese line?

Regardless, the point is that if Kubiak was just drafting "his" guys while Elway spectated, I GUARANTEE Kubiak doesn't spend a 1st round pick on an OLB to sit behind a PAIR of All Pros. Waiting to draft linemen till the dregs of the draft despite KNOWING our line sucks wasn't Kubiaks fault under Fox, and still isn't.


Btw, Barone has coached three All-Pro players in his NFL career, all of them TE's.
Uh huh: Antonio was First Team All Pro three years straight—then Barone came over from the Falcons and he was never an All Pro again. Barone didn't make him; if anything, he regressed under Barone (kinda like former All Pro Ryan Clady?) So Alge Crumpler's his claim to fame?

[Freyaka]

Yes: Kubiak wanted to fix the teams problems and Elway didn't, which certainly raised the stress level for both. Elways disinterest in the offensive line (i.e. the thing that transformed him from "perennial NFC whipping boy" to "back-to-back champion) in favor of just riding a HoF QB and D to victory (something that NEVER worked even for HIM as a player) made our offense hopeless. That's more likely to get worse under a secondary coach than better.

The fanbase didn't force out Kubiak, and I doubt anything but the stress of trying to salvage a dumpster offense despite NO foundation on which to build did. My point is that the bulk of the fanbase greatly preferred to blame their former backup QB for that than their first ballot HoFer who started 5 SBs and won 2. That's expected, but not especially rational.

I don't even know how to respond to this aside from handing you another bowl of paint chips.

[Freyaka]

That Barone (somehow) flew under the radar with an endless string of putrid blockers he directly supervised for THREE head coaches—until Kubiak, Wade and PFM got him a Ring, thrusting him into a spotlight where trying to explain away his failures only EXPOSED them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but within a decade I think he'll be a small town HS coach who's players annually wonder whose stolen SB Ring is on display in his office.

You are really good at understating things Joel...

[Northman]

Your boy Kubiak retained him. It's pretty ridiculous to assert that your offensive genius hero had nothing to do with the offense's failures.

Well, keep in mind this is coming from a guy who claimed the 90's SB championships were all on Kubiak and not Shanahan. lol

[Freyaka]

Well, keep in mind this is coming from a guy who claimed the 90's SB championships were all on Kubiak and not Shanahan. lol

I think Joel's way off on most parts of this thread, but I don't 100% disagree with that. Our offense under Shanny was never really the same after Kubes left. Granted Cutler could have had a little to do with that fact.

[Northman]

I think Joel's way off on most parts of this thread, but I don't 100% disagree with that. Our offense under Shanny was never really the same after Kubes left. Granted Cutler could have had a little to do with that fact.

But is it because Shanahan lost "good" coordinators or because he sucked as a HC? We all know that McDaniels is a good OC, at least when dealing with a HOF QB. I mean, if Shanahan sucks as a HC and rode the coattails of Kubiak than clearly Kubiak rode the coattails of Phillips right? The logic simply doesnt make sense to me because then you could start picking apart any SB winning coach and say "well, they didnt do anything since so and so was a part of his staff", etc. I think it all plays a part and the chemistry of the staff as well as the players needs to work hand in hand but i dont give credit to just one particular coach or player. If anyone expected Shanahan to win SB after SB while losing players and coaching staff than they simply were not being realistic.

[Freyaka]

But is it because Shanahan lost "good" coordinators or because he sucked as a HC? We all know that McDaniels is a good OC, at least when dealing with a HOF QB. I mean, if Shanahan sucks as a HC and rode the coattails of Kubiak than clearly Kubiak rode the coattails of Phillips right? The logic simply doesnt make sense to me because then you could start picking apart any SB winning coach and say "well, they didnt do anything since so and so was a part of his staff", etc. I think it all plays a part and the chemistry of the staff as well as the players needs to work hand in hand but i dont give credit to just one particular coach or player. If anyone expected Shanahan to win SB after SB while losing players and coaching staff than they simply were not being realistic.

Kubiak couldn't rekindle that magic here and IMO did ride phillips coattails.

The part I disagree with you on is this


If anyone expected Shanahan to win SB after SB while losing players and coaching staff than they simply were not being realistic

We had the talent there, we should have won at least one during the Plummer era. Yes there was the period following Elway's departure where you are correct, that was an unreasonable expectation, But we should have done a lot more with the team we had during the Plummer years and Shanny's decision to draft Cutler basically was what closed that window.

[I Eat Staples]

I thought winning the Superbowl was a pretty magic rekindling experience, but maybe that's just me.

[Freyaka]

I thought winning the Superbowl was a pretty magic rekindling experience, but maybe that's just me.

Did Kubiak's offense do that? Because last I checked, Von Miller was the MVP that made that game happen, Kubiak didn't rekindle his "offensive" magic that he was known for. You can't argue that...There was no offense in Denver during his tenure.

[VonDoom]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3m3 minutes ago

#Broncos expected to hire Brock Olivo as special teams coach. Was assistant in KC. And played ST in college at mizzou @DenverChannel

[I Eat Staples]

Did Kubiak's offense do that? Because last I checked, Von Miller was the MVP that made that game happen, Kubiak didn't rekindle his "offensive" magic that he was known for. You can't argue that...There was no offense in Denver during his tenure.

Kubiak was the head coach, not the OC. Yeah, he coached the offense and it was underwhelming (with awful QB and OL play) but he was still the head coach of the team.

People blame Kubiak for the offense for the past 2 years. I say he overachieved considering our QB situation.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

KUSA—The Denver Broncos’ new special teams coordinator is Brock Olivo, who spent previous three seasons serving as special teams assistant to Dave Toub in Kansas City.

The Broncos and Olivo have agreed to terms and are finalizing a contract Thursday morning.

http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/broncos-agree-to-terms-with-brock-olivo-as-special-teams-coordinator/388365935

[Freyaka]

http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/broncos-agree-to-terms-with-brock-olivo-as-special-teams-coordinator/388365935

Ugh...another guy for us to start calling Brent when he leaves us... But in all honestly, should be a solid pickup.

[Valar Morghulis]

Even Fox had the good sense to move Barone back to TE's coach. Sampro, Barone, Garcia, these are Kubiak's failures.

I'm not giving up on Garcia yet

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'm not giving up on Garcia yet

Latimer 2.0?

[Buff]

I can't wait for this year's article on how Latimer is poised for a breakout year.

[Freyaka]

Latimer 2.0?

Latmimer at least showed some flashes in the last game of the season...Garcia...not so much.

[Traveler]

Is the coaching staff complete?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I can't wait for this year's article on how Latimer is poised for a breakout year.

Isn't he a FA this year or am I AFU? If he is a FA, it will be interesting to see if an effort is made to bring him back. You can no longer use the excuse, "well he knows the offense".

[VonDoom]

Is the coaching staff complete?

I think we still need a TE coach and a few assistants. But basically it's complete otherwise.

[VonDoom]

Dennison hired as the Bills OC

[Joel]

You're about as unreasonable as it gets. He gave him two free agents and numerous draft picks and they couldn't coach them up.
He gave him two FAs NO ONE ELSE WANTED and numerous 4th and 5th round draft picks; show me ANY coach who can "coach up" THAT in two years. Even Belicheat doesn't turn 4th rounders into All Pros overnight, and Kubiak's not dirty. There's a reason Evan Mathis was still on his couch waiting for Elways call just TWO WEEKS before Opening Day.

You can't treat your offensive line as an afterthought yet expect your position coaches to transform hamburger into filet mignon. After the SB beatings he took in his prime and the back-to-back championships on which he retired, NO ONE should know that better than Elway.

[slim]

No other teams were interested?

Lol

They managed to coach up Paradis

[dogfish]

Dennison hired as the Bills OC

:spit: :lol: :rofl:

[Davii]

I can't wait for this year's article on how Latimer is poised for a breakout year.

~5 months

[Rick]

Dennison in Buffalo might surprise some people.

McCoy and Taylor would work well in the Kubiak system, Taylor has experience in it.

How good of a play caller is Dennison? We will finally find out.

[BroncoWave]

I think the Bills are going to regret that move. Good for Dennison though to get an OC gig.

[VonDoom]

Dennison in Buffalo might surprise some people.

McCoy and Taylor would work well in the Kubiak system, Taylor has experience in it.

How good of a play caller is Dennison? We will finally find out.

Knowing the Bills, they'll release Taylor and we'll never know how he'd work in that system

[Simple Jaded]

Is the coaching staff complete?

TE's coach, mainly.

Lammey heard rumors of Jon Embree while in Tampa. George Godsey, former Texans OC, came up through the ranks as a TE's coach.

[Simple Jaded]

If Toub is so great the Broncos should interview his ST's assistant, Brock Olivo, see if he's ready for ST's Coordinator job.

oiIBQRu8fTQ

[Freyaka]

For example?

Following up on this way late, but I guess to clarify...We didn't have the players to make Kubiak's scheme work, rather than adjusting (and there were some adjustments that could be made) we just kept trotting out the same stuff for two years straight and made very little adjustment to the offense. It'd be like if we had players best suited for 3-4, but the coaching staff insisted on running a 4-3. Yes you might be able to find some success, but not as much as if you adjusted your scheme to fit the players needs. Kubiak very much did not adjust to fit players, if the players didn't fit his scheme, he just kept using it even if there wasn't success.

[VonDoom]

Alex Marvez ‏@alexmarvez 10m10 minutes ago

Not sure if out there but source tells @sn_nfl that Geep Chryst expected to become @Broncos new TEs coach

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 7m7 minutes ago

Nicki Jhabvala Retweeted Alex Marvez

I'm told he interviewed earlier this week but nothing has been finalized yet.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 1h

Broncos adding another ex-OC to offensive staff. Team finalizing deal with Geep Chryst to be TE coach, as @alexmarvez reported. #9sports

[Simple Jaded]

Following up on this way late, but I guess to clarify...We didn't have the players to make Kubiak's scheme work, rather than adjusting (and there were some adjustments that could be made) we just kept trotting out the same stuff for two years straight and made very little adjustment to the offense. It'd be like if we had players best suited for 3-4, but the coaching staff insisted on running a 4-3. Yes you might be able to find some success, but not as much as if you adjusted your scheme to fit the players needs. Kubiak very much did not adjust to fit players, if the players didn't fit his scheme, he just kept using it even if there wasn't success.

Who didn't fit his system?

[Freyaka]

Who didn't fit his system?

"didn't have the talent to run his system" aka most of them, the entire line, that your pick...Did you think we ran his system effectively? If so I'm mistaken and withdraw my point.

[Simple Jaded]

"didn't have the talent to run his system" aka most of them, the entire line, that your pick...Did you think we ran his system effectively? If so I'm mistaken and withdraw my point.

This ZBS has historically flourished with garbage on OL, they'll tell ya they don't need talent. And besides, almost every starter ran zone exclusively at one point in their career.

Okung at Seattle. Signed by Kubiak.
Not sure about Garcia but he was drafted by Kubiak.
Paradis at Boise St
Schofield early at Michigan.
Stephenson at Oklahoma. Signed by Kubiak.

Sampro at CSU, drafted Kubiak.
Billy Turner at North Dakota St. Signed by Kubiak.
Ferentz at Iowa. Signed by Kubiak.

Fullback, drafted by Kubiak.
Green, not sure about his bullshit offense in college.
Heuerman, nit sure, but drafted by Kubiak.
Derby, no idea.

The QB's come from shit college spreads, picked by Kubiak.

WR's? Say what? The only reason they don't fit is because they're petulant children who want to throw every down.

CJ Anderson, you might have a point.
Booker, you don't have a point, zone at Utah.
Bibbs, CSU.
Forsett, with Kubiak in Baltimore. Signed by Kubiak.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Jaded, DT fits just fine. He's probably the best downfield blocker we have, and always has been. He might call for the ball, but he always gives effort in the running game, opposed to Sanders "I stand and watch".

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Sanders is the most overrated player we have.

[NightTrainLayne]

This ZBS has historically flourished with garbage on OL, they'll tell ya they don't need talent. And besides, almost every starter ran zone exclusively at one point in their career.

Okung at Seattle. Signed by Kubiak.
Not sure about Garcia but he was drafted by Kubiak.
Paradis at Boise St
Schofield early at Michigan.
Stephenson at Oklahoma. Signed by Kubiak.

Sampro at CSU, drafted Kubiak.
Billy Turner at North Dakota St. Signed by Kubiak.
Ferentz at Iowa. Signed by Kubiak.

Fullback, drafted by Kubiak.
Green, not sure about his bullshit offense in college.
Heuerman, nit sure, but drafted by Kubiak.
Derby, no idea.

The QB's come from shit college spreads, picked by Kubiak.

WR's? Say what? The only reason they don't fit is because they're petulant children who want to throw every down.

CJ Anderson, you might have a point.
Booker, you don't have a point, zone at Utah.
Bibbs, CSU.
Forsett, with Kubiak in Baltimore. Signed by Kubiak.

I don't think Kubiak or his disciples would ever tell anyone that their ZBS scheme doesn't require talent. That's absurd.

It requires it's own skill set and talent. Our lines in the late 90's and early 2000's were very talented.

[Cugel]

I don't think Kubiak or his disciples would ever tell anyone that their ZBS scheme doesn't require talent. That's absurd.

It requires it's own skill set and talent. Our lines in the late 90's and early 2000's were very talented.

Not only were they extremely talented, they had some of the best OL in the NFL, especially Gary Zimmerman, who is a Hall of Famer. Plus, Stink, Tom Nalen, Tony Jones. Every one of the Broncos OL from 1998 was better than the corresponding starters for the 2016 Broncos. By a wide margin in most cases.

[Simple Jaded]

I don't think Kubiak or his disciples would ever tell anyone that their ZBS scheme doesn't require talent. That's absurd.

It requires it's own skill set and talent. Our lines in the late 90's and early 2000's were very talented.

I'm sorry, "fits the system" is what they'll tell ya.

The SB line was talented, after Zimmerman/Stink/Jones left they were mostly garbage. They were absolutely bottom of the talent barrel.

[Simple Jaded]

I used to call it the TCE line, Tight/Center/End, because they'd take undersized C's, drop a few pounds and move them G...then they'd take undersized TE's, add a few pounds and move them to T.

TE-C-C-C-TE.

Averaged about 285 lbs and played like it.

[Joel]

Who didn't fit his system?
Yeah, your sig shows you know as well as anyone: Supposedly, Kubiak expected Okung, Garcia, Paradis, Schofield/Sambrailo and Stephenson to do things outside their expertise. So say the same people who insist Elway merely rubber stamped FAs and draft picks Kubiak hand selected BECAUSE THEY FIT HIS SYSTEM and despite a total lack of ability. I think you're the one who likes to say "athleticism" is why we made Sambrailo the NINTH OT picked in 2015, even though he sucks.

This conceit that ZBS linemen=crappy linemen is simply false. Yes, it places a premium on talent that's largely secondary for traditional linemen, so guys who aren't human bulldozers can still be highly successful in a ZBS—but it's not like agility, quick reflexes, balance and brains are IRRELEVANT to traditional linemen (especially OTs and pulling Gs.) And it's not like those are ALL a ZBS linemen needs, else its All Pro products would be 180 lb. kick returners instead of 280 lb. blockers.

Further, the days when the ZBS was a big Broncos secret are long gone: There's enough league-wide demand for ZBS linemen now that you can no longer find good ZBS OTs hanging around in the 3rd round or Gs hanging around in the 5th.

Elway pinched pennies on the line under Fox and we got burned; he kept right on doing it under Kubiak and we kept right on getting burned. And I still think Barone was a big part of the problem, too.

The bottom line is that FOUR of the FIVE teams Kubiak coached had great lines: The SOLE exception probably has less to do with him than whatever made its line utter garbage for SIX SOLID YEARS BEFORE Kubiak and Dennison came back to Denver. Kubiak didn't find Duane Brown in the 4th round or as a cut rate FA: He drafted the All Pro #26th overall, in the FIRST round. The last linemen Elway drafted in the 1st was Orlando Franklin.

[Rick]

Franklin was second.

[NightTerror218]

I didnt realize kubiak was GM

[Joel]

Franklin was second.
Ah, my bad; still the HIGHEST Elway's EVER drafted a lineman, which only reinforces my argument.


I didnt realize kubiak was GM
He's not, but NO ONE here will blame the guy who is (except for GEM, I've noticed; good on her for being objective.) So all our CONSISTENTLY AWFUL line choices since 2010 are the fault of the coach we hired in 2015.

[Simple Jaded]

I didnt realize kubiak was GM

I'm not going to blame Elway, refuse to go there, at least not entirely. Sampro was Kubiak's pick, Gotsis was Kollar's pick, we know this even though it's never been explicitly said by anyone in the organization. Through what's been said/written I'm of the belief that coaches have had a role in who is drafted and signed.

Point of fact, Elway made mention of this during Kubiak's retirement presser.

[Joel]

I'm not going to blame Elway, refuse to go there, at least not entirely. Sampro was Kubiak's pick, Gotsis was Kollar's pick, we know this even though it's never been explicitly said by anyone in the organization. Through what's been said/written I'm of the belief that coaches have had a role in who is drafted and signed.

Point of fact, Elway made mention of this during Kubiak's retirement presser.
Sure they had "a role;" I don't think Elway was firing blind: But HE made the FINAL CALL, and there's no way around that. Neither Kubiak nor Dennison signs the paychecks nor the contracts. If Kubiak had the kind of authority over the draft and FA signings of a team with that kind of defensive talent and a moribund offense, does anyone REALLY think the offensive guru would've spent "his" 1st round pick on an OLB when ALL THE STARTERS WERE ALREADY ALL PROS?!

Dennison was expected to make 3rd round OTs and 5th round Gs quality starters in two years time; when he couldn't, it was all Kubiaks fault. That's unreasonable.

[spikerman]

Joel, quick question. If Kubiak were to take another HC position would you become a fan of that team?

[Simple Jaded]

Dennison didn't coach the OL.

[MOtorboat]

Joel, quick question. If Kubiak were to take another HC position would you become a fan of that team?

Yes. Isn't it obvious?

[Nomad]

Joel, quick question. If Kubiak were to take another HC position would you become a fan of that team?

If Kubiak becomes a HC or a coach again, this would cement the fact Kubiak walked away from the BRONCOS due to turbulence within Dove Valley, and not due to health and family. ;)

[spikerman]

If Kubiak becomes a HC or a coach again, this would cement the fact Kubiak walked away from the BRONCOS due to turbulence within Dove Valley, and not due to health and family. ;)

I imagine both were factors.

[Nomad]

I imagine both were factors.

Schefter hasn't reported it, so only due to health. ;)

[Simple Jaded]

A Project Superintendent I work with lives by Kubiak's, said his wife was READY to move on. I still think it's a lot of both.

[Poet]

Elway is so mean for not signing a bunch of first round OL! If he had Kubiak would have had something to do with the line -because they sucked he had nothing to do with it, even though if we hired Shanahan he would have had to fix it- and we would have won all the SB's even though the rest of the team would have been worse.

#joeliojones

[Simple Jaded]

Now I'm picturing Joel with Coolio hair.

[Joel]

Joel, quick question. If Kubiak were to take another HC position would you become a fan of that team?
No: Mike Shanahan never made me a 'Skins fan (not even close.)

Dennison didn't coach the OL.
Yeah, he did, on two different occasions:
2001-2005, before promotion to OC when Kubiak left for Houston
2009 when McDumbass demoted him to make McCoy OC; a year later he went to Houston as OC and Barone took over our OL.

Dennison's actually worn a lot of hats over the years, first as a LB on Elways original SB teams, then our STs coach, then our OL coach, then our OC, then Baltimores QBs coach. And, in an era when many NFL players leave college without ANY degree, Dennison completed his MASTERS in civil engineering his rookie season, so he's not just some dumb jock benefiting from membership in the old boys club.

So he's a smart experienced guy who's been involved in all three phases of the game—but 2009 was the only time in his entire 21 year coaching career that he wasn't serving under Mike Shanahan or Kubiak. It'll be interesting to see what (if anything) he does on his own.

[Joel]

If Kubiak becomes a HC or a coach again, this would cement the fact Kubiak walked away from the BRONCOS due to turbulence within Dove Valley, and not due to health and family. ;)
Remember, at the end of 2014 he preempted Elway (and everyone else) by publicly saying he had NO interest in ANY HC gig, because he'd only been in Baltimore a year and wanted to honor that commitment: That didn't change until Elway went to his house to ask him back, at which point he also publicly said Denver was the ONLY team that could've convinced him to break his commitment to Baltimore. Not saying he'll never be a HC again, but I bet he takes at least a year or two off to get his health right and figure out how (i.e. if) he can do that job without killing himself.

[Poet]

Remember, at the end of 2014 he preempted Elway (and everyone else) by publicly saying he had NO interest in ANY HC gig, because he'd only been in Baltimore a year and wanted to honor that commitment: That didn't change until Elway went to his house to ask him back, at which point he also publicly said Denver was the ONLY team that could've convinced him to break his commitment to Baltimore. Not saying he'll never be a HC again, but I bet he takes at least a year or two off to get his health right and figure out how (i.e. if) he can do that job without killing himself.

I think if he can come back he will come back. I think he might find college ball less stressful.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Dennison didn't coach the OL.

Nobody did

[Poet]

Nobody did

You've won me back.

[Joel]

I think if he can come back he will come back. I think he might find college ball less stressful.
I can't blame him: What McNair's doing to O'Brien with Oz is only a sequel to what he did to Kubiak with Schaub. A year after THAT, he got to juggle the egos of Elway, Manning and Osweiler (who somehow thought he belongs in that list) while managing a pair of championship runs and rebuild an awful offensive line by drafting DEFENSIVE linemen and OLBs. With fickle fans—unmollified by even a LOMBARDI—incessantly screaming when he didn't instantly salvage an awful offense.

That would leave a bad taste in my mouth, even with a fourth SB Ring as a sweetener. Maybe he'll become a consultant somewhere, like Alex Gibbs in 2013. He's only in his mid-fifties, so my gut says he'll eventually be a head coach again, after a year or two off to rest, reorient and talk with his family and doctors. But he won't have his Dream Team: Wade's already moved on, and isn't getting younger, and I don't think Dennison was the mere spectator everyone else seems to believe.

[Poet]

Schaub wasn't a burden on Kubiak. He was by far and away one of the best things that happened to that franchise. He had some talent. He played well for them. He gave Kubiak two Pro Bowl seasons, a third season where he should have been a Pro Bowler (at least most years) and at the worst solid play. It's not that I don't listen to you, Joel, but when you act like Schaub -who was by many accounts a top tenish guy- was an anchor or burden on Kubiak, it's not a serious point. And if the point is that he was developed into that guy by Kubiak, so what? No one gets good by themselves. It's the coach's job to coach them up.

[Joel]

Schaub wasn't a burden on Kubiak. He was by far and away one of the best things that happened to that franchise. He had some talent. He played well for them. He gave Kubiak two Pro Bowl seasons, a third season where he should have been a Pro Bowler (at least most years) and at the worst solid play. It's not that I don't listen to you, Joel, but when you act like Schaub -who was by many accounts a top tenish guy- was an anchor or burden on Kubiak, it's not a serious point. And if the point is that he was developed into that guy by Kubiak, so what? No one gets good by themselves. It's the coach's job to coach them up.
Schaub was nothing before or after Kubiak, and made a couple Pro Bowls with him, but so what; here's the list of Kubiak starting QBs who DIDN'T make Pro Bowls:

Trevor Siemian (so far....)

Among Kubiaks starting QBs, Schaubs achievements rank slightly ahead of Brian Griese, slightly behind Jake Plummer and WAY behind Steve Young and John Elway. That's probably about where Schaub was a player, too, which is hardly "top ten;" who (apart from his agent) "accounts" him more?

Kubiak's been wildly successful with THREE teams without Schaub, including FOUR WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS, one as HC. Kyle Shanahan was ALSO successful with TWO teams without Schaub, culminating in his trip to the SB in two weeks. Schaub was a scrub backup before he met them and an overpriced backup after he left them. If the question is "who made whom," the answer is clear and indisputable.

[Poet]

Schaub was nothing before or after Kubiak, and made a couple Pro Bowls with him, but so what; here's the list of Kubiak starting QBs who DIDN'T make Pro Bowls:

Trevor Siemian (so far....)

Among Kubiaks starting QBs, Schaubs achievements rank slightly ahead of Brian Griese, slightly behind Jake Plummer and WAY behind Steve Young and John Elway. That's probably about where Schaub was a player, too, which is hardly "top ten;" who (apart from his agent) "accounts" him more?

Kubiak's been wildly successful with THREE teams without Schaub, including FOUR WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS, one as HC. Kyle Shanahan was ALSO successful with TWO teams without Schaub, culminating in his trip to the SB in two weeks. Schaub was a scrub backup before he met them and an overpriced backup after he left them. If the question is "who made whom," the answer is clear and indisputable.

Before Kubiak he was a second round draft pick that played well when Vick was hurt and had suitors. So before Kubiak he was a solid prospect. That counts as something.

It is possible, however, for multiple people to be involved in the success of something. I do believe that Kubiak helped Schaub. I should hope so, otherwise he would be shit at his job.

What does Kubiak's success have to do with Schaub? Do you really think he was so good he could make anyone great? Because TS was bad last year. Oz was average at best. Those aren't indictments. He certainly got fired for having a shitty team when Schaub turned into a pick-six machine and none of the guys behind him were any good. He developed talented guys. They played well. FFS, he left the Texans with a losing record. He was .500 in the playoffs -beating Cincinnati hardly counts- and was solid. I certainly hope you're not trying to give him credit as a HC for what he did as an OC, either. Because his offensive contributions towards the end in Houston was garbage, and he did nothing to help the Broncos' offense, either.

But back to the guys who played QB for his teams. THEY played well. He wasn't out there throwing the ball for himself, the team, or the QB. It's like when people give Walsh and BB all the credit for their QB's. Did they help? **** yes. Did the systems help? **** yes. But the QB is the one who has to learn, go out, and execute. He was a QB coach for Young when Steve Young was already known as a great player. I don't begrudge him credit for that, but SY isn't exactly Joey Harrington. Did he help John Elway? **** yeah he did. But...again John Elway....John Elway. I'm not going to act like he didn't have a pretty awesome ******* talent to work with -- the HC and system Kubiak got to work with was also pretty cherry, too.

In fact, one of the least talented guys he ever had for a stint WAS Schaub. For reference - Schaub's average season as a player puts us into the playoffs easily. We'd have been a SB contender with him, and to be more honest with good play we probably are at minimum 11 wins. Schaub had a good career. Hall of Famer? No. But he had several years as a top ten QB, and he was capable as a guy throwing it down the field or as a game managing player.

[pnbronco]

I imagine both were factors.

I think they were too. He didn't look good at the end of the season. He look really, really tired, like haggard. I heard Plummer say he stopped by Dove and Kubes would away spend some time with him when he went down there. He said this time it was a quick hello and Kubes apologized that he had to get back to watching film. I heard he was doing that all the time trying to see something that could make things work better.

I will always be so grateful that Kubes came back to Denver and was able to win SB 50. I'm even more grateful that he left before his health was damaged beyond repair.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Vance Joseph rounds out Broncos coaching staff with assistant hires; expected to retain Klint Kubiak

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/24/vance-joseph-broncos-coaching-staff-chris-gould-klint-kubiak/

[Simple Jaded]

I think they're keeping Asst WR's coach Marc Lubick too.

[Cugel]

GONE

Rick Dennison, offensive coordinator

Wade Phillips, defensive coordinator (accepted same job with Los Angeles Rams)

Joe DeCamillis, special teams coordinator (took same job with Jacksonville Jaguars)

Clancy Barone, offensive line coach

Greg Knapp, quarterbacks/passing-game coordinator

Brian Pariani, tight ends coach

James Cregg, assistant OL coach

Tony Coaxum, assistant special teams coach

Samson Brown, assistant DBs coach

But some coaches, particularly those who were not too close to Kubiak or Dennison are staying:


STAYING

Joe Woods, defensive coordinator (was DBs coach)

Tyke Tolbert, wide receivers coach

Eric Studesville, running backs coach

Reggie Herring, inside linebackers coach

Bill Kollar, defensive line coach

Fred Pagac, outside linebackers coach

Strength and conditioning staff: Luke Richesson, Mike Eubanks, Anthony Lomando, Dennis Love
INTERVIEWED



Joe Woods, defensive coordinator (currently DBs coach)

Reggie Herring, defensive coordinator (currently ILBs coach)

Jeremiah Washburn, OL coach

Derius Swinton II, special teams coordinator

Craig Aukerman, special teams coordinator

Kevin Spencer, special teams coordinator

Richard Hightower, special teams coordinator

Greg McMahon, special teams coordinator

Brock Olivo, special teams coordinator
TO BE DETERMINED

Klint Kubiak, offensive assistant/QBs coach

Mark Lubick, assistant WRs coach

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

It's safe to say Kubiak's son was close to Kubiak.

Fwiw, I'm not surprised a couple disgruntled employees who weren't retained grumbled on the way out the door. When doesn't that happen?

[Freyaka]

It's safe to say Kubiak's son was close to Kubiak.

Fwiw, I'm not surprised a couple disgruntled employees who weren't retained grumbled on the way out the door. When doesn't that happen?

Which kind of begs the question...if there was such a huge rift between Kubiak and Elway and it was Kubiak was forced out not retired as cugels oh so reliable internet radio sources are saying...Why the heck would his son be staying on with us?

[Joel]

Which kind of begs the question...if there was such a huge rift between Kubiak and Elway and it was Kubiak was forced out not retired as cugels oh so reliable internet radio sources are saying...Why the heck would his son be staying on with us?
Obvious hostage situation: Elway doesn't screw around, even with former roommates. :tongue:

[NightTrainLayne]

Which kind of begs the question...if there was such a huge rift between Kubiak and Elway and it was Kubiak was forced out not retired as cugels oh so reliable internet radio sources are saying...Why the heck would his son be staying on with us?

It's your standard Oedipus Rex situation. The younger Kubiak obviously forced his Dad out so that he could consummate his relationship with Elway.

[slim]

It's your standard Oedipus Rex situation. The younger Kubiak obviously forced his Dad out so that he could consummate his relationship with Elway.

Oh man, Rex isn't going to like this.

[dogfish]

Oh man, Rex isn't going to like this.

men hooking up? he'll love it!

[VonDoom]

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 2h2 hours ago

Broncos HC Vance Joseph has added title of Assistant Head Coach to RB coach Eric Studesville. Well-deserved after 21 yrs with RBs. #9sports

[Joel]

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 2h2 hours ago

Broncos HC Vance Joseph has added title of Assistant Head Coach to RB coach Eric Studesville. Well-deserved after 21 yrs with RBs. #9sports
Maybe, but I wonder what OC McCoy thinks; didn't he already go from OC McCoy over RB coach Studesville to OC McCoy UNDER Interim HC Studesville once?

[Davii]

Maybe, but I wonder what OC McCoy thinks; didn't he already go from OC McCoy over RB coach Studesville to OC McCoy UNDER Interim HC Studesville once?

But he's still the RB coach under McCoy.... Should be an interesting dynamic....

[Joel]

But he's still the RB coach under McCoy.... Should be an interesting dynamic....
Yeah, that's what I mean: He's till RB coach under OC McCoy, but isn't "Assistant Head Coach" also over OC McCoy?

[Simple Jaded]

I think the Broncos have made it abundantly clear that they don't care if people get their feelings hurt.

[Joel]

I think the Broncos have made it abundantly clear that they don't care if people get their feelings hurt.
Is that a fancy way of saying, "All we're trying to do is win from mother:censored:ing now on"?

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by Freyaka View Post
Which kind of begs the question...if there was such a huge rift between Kubiak and Elway and it was Kubiak was forced out not retired as cugels oh so reliable internet radio sources are saying...Why the heck would his son be staying on with us?

Are you still debating that? Without bothering to look at the sources because you are too lazy of course?

His son is staying because he is a decent coach, and because he wasn't involved with the decision not to play Paxton Lynch in the final meaningless Raiders game that pissed Elway off.

[Freyaka]

Are you still debating that? Without bothering to look at the sources because you are too lazy of course?

His son is staying because he is a decent coach, and because he wasn't involved with the decision not to play Paxton Lynch in the final meaningless Raiders game that pissed Elway off.

Still debating what? That our coach quit for health reasons? Or that there's some made up fantasy land where Elway forced him out?

[dogfish]

Still debating what? That our coach quit for health reasons? Or that there's some made up fantasy land where Elway forced him out?

given that he's already looking for a new job, i think it's pretty fair to say that he didn't just quit here wholly of his own volition. . . JMO. . .

[Hawgdriver]

given that he's already looking for a new job, i think it's pretty fair to say that he didn't just quit here wholly of his own volition. . . JMO. . .

Kubiak is back in the game? News to me.

[dogfish]

Kubiak is back in the game? News to me.

not yet, but he's looking to get back. . . read an article about it earlier today. . .


http://www.denverpost.com/2017/02/01/gary-kubiak-exploring-football-return/

[Davii]

not yet, but he's looking to get back. . . read an article about it earlier today. . .


http://www.denverpost.com/2017/02/01/gary-kubiak-exploring-football-return/

That says he's looking to see what he can do in a non-coaching role, he said that when he retired, nothing new there I don't think Dog.

[Joel]

That says he's looking to see what he can do in a non-coaching role, he said that when he retired, nothing new there I don't think Dog.

“My next stop is not going to be coaching, and I’m kind of excited about that because there are a lot of things about the game that I’ve always loved. I love evaluating, I love the draft, I love evaluating players and doing those types of things. I had some really interesting conversations with some colleges. So we’ll see.”
I wondered if he might eventually return in some sort of consultant role (ala Alex Gibbs when the signs the line had gone to Hell first became apparent under Fox, or LeBeaus semi-retirement that keeps turning into DC jobs.) As far as any hypothetical schism between him and Elway,

Included on the staff, of course, are two of Kubiak’s three sons, whose continued roles with the Broncos ensure Gary won’t stray too far from the game or the team. Klein Kubiak remains a scout, while the eldest son, Klint, is an offensive assistant/quarterbacks coach, tasked with aiding the development of Trevor Siemian (http://www.denverpost.com/tag/trevor-siemian/) and Paxton Lynch (http://www.denverpost.com/tag/paxton-lynch/).
That doesn't really sound like Elway going from "wanted Kubiak badly enough to personally go to his house in Houston and ask" to "wanted Kubiak gone badly enough he offered to help him pack" in just two years. I'm still hoping against hope he'll be later be re-involved with developing Siemian and Lynch, because 1) he undeniably excels at QB development and 2) both need a lot more than a single year (or in Siemians case, two) of that.

[TXBRONC]

Yeah, that's what I mean: He's till RB coach under OC McCoy, but isn't "Assistant Head Coach" also over OC McCoy?

It seems this is about keep Studesville in Denver. If another team wants him they'll have to hire him as a head coach. I would think McCoy is still over Studesville because he is coordinator.

[Poet]

I wondered if he might eventually return in some sort of consultant role (ala Alex Gibbs when the signs the line had gone to Hell first became apparent under Fox, or LeBeaus semi-retirement that keeps turning into DC jobs.) As far as any hypothetical schism between him and Elway,

That doesn't really sound like Elway going from "wanted Kubiak badly enough to personally go to his house in Houston and ask" to "wanted Kubiak gone badly enough he offered to help him pack" in just two years. I'm still hoping against hope he'll be later be re-involved with developing Siemian and Lynch, because 1) he undeniably excels at QB development and 2) both need a lot more than a single year (or in Siemians case, two) of that.

He is a fine QB coach. That would be dope. Regardless, I hope he gets whatever job he wants. He's a solid HC. He's a really good dude.

[Freyaka]

given that he's already looking for a new job, i think it's pretty fair to say that he didn't just quit here wholly of his own volition. . . JMO. . .

Your opinion is off base. He retired from a head coach position because it was too much stress...
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/02/01/gary-kubiak-exploring-football-return/


“My next stop is not going to be coaching, and I’m kind of excited about that because there are a lot of things about the game that I’ve always loved. I love evaluating, I love the draft, I love evaluating players and doing those types of things. I had some really interesting conversations with some colleges. So we’ll see.”

But please, let's throw out wild baseless conspiracy theories.

[Poet]

Freyaka, we don't disrespect the Dogfather like that.

We disrespect him like this!

OOooOooooooOoOOoo SCREWWWWWWWW YOU DOGGIE BOY!

[Nomad]

Your opinion is off base. He retired from a head coach position because it was too much stress...
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/02/01/gary-kubiak-exploring-football-return/



But please, let's throw out wild baseless conspiracy theories.

dog isn't a conspiracy kind of guy, and doesn't stir up shit or rumors, he's just passing along what he hears or reads....like many of us.

[Joel]

It seems this is about keep Studesville in Denver. If another team wants him they'll have to hire him as a head coach. I would think McCoy is still over Studesville because he is coordinator.
Interesting logic, but if so it makes me wonder why we didn't do the same for the same reason with Joe Woods, then give Wade a raise.


He is a fine QB coach. That would be dope. Regardless, I hope he gets whatever job he wants. He's a solid HC. He's a really good dude.
*carefully examines for hooks* :tongue:

[MOtorboat]

Interesting logic, but if so it makes me wonder why we didn't do the same for the same reason with Joe Woods, then give Wade a raise.


*carefully examines for hooks* :tongue:

Because Elway just wanted to piss you off.

[Simple Jaded]

Your opinion is off base. He retired from a head coach position because it was too much stress...
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/02/01/gary-kubiak-exploring-football-return/



But please, let's throw out wild baseless conspiracy theories.

Wtf do you care if people think there's more to it?

[Nomad]

Wtf do you care if people think there's more to it?

I knew I liked your bluntness :lol:

The Sumo avatar is awesome:D

[Poet]

Joel doesn't trust me.

[Valar Morghulis]

Joel doesn't trust me.

Because you are a smarmy, suit clad lawyer to be?

[Poet]

Because you are a smarmy, suit clad lawyer to be?

Joel doesn't hate lawyers. I don't think I'm smarmy, although I do admit that I might not know that word's definition in its entirety.

Val, PAGS hasn't responded to me about replacing you as my European friend. So, unfortunately, I'm stuck with you.

[Joel]

To paraphrase a great line, if you think you got a good deal from a lawyer, count your money, then your fingers, then your relatives.... ;)

[Poet]

To paraphrase a great line, if you think you got a good deal from a lawyer, count your money, then your fingers, then your relatives.... ;)

You try to sell one elderly lady a timeshare and everyone hates you. Sheesh. It was a great deal!

[Poet]

Because you are a smarmy, suit clad lawyer to be?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/smarmy

revealing or marked by a smug, ingratiating, or false earnestness <a tone of smarmy self-satisfaction — New Yorker>


Well, I've been told I'm smug. I've been told I'm honest and straight forward, so I'm pretty sure I'm not falsely earnest.

Eh. It'll be alright.

[Valar Morghulis]

The smarmy is less about you, and more about the characature I was creating.

Also I just wanted to abuse you. It makes me feel tough.

[Joel]

You try to sell one elderly lady a timeshare and everyone hates you. Sheesh. It was a great deal!
"Big league," no doubt—but for WHOM...?

[Freyaka]

Wtf do you care if people think there's more to it?

WTF do you care if I care?

[Poet]

The smarmy is less about you, and more about the characature I was creating.

Also I just wanted to abuse you. It makes me feel tough.

I was made to suffer.

[Simple Jaded]

WTF do you care if I care?

I know you but what am I?

[Poet]

You're a poop face.

[Simple Jaded]

The next person to speak is a boogerhead for a week.

[Valar Morghulis]

The next person to speak is a boogerhead for a week.

You are.

[Joel]

Your diction resembles that common among catamites.

[Cugel]

given that he's already looking for a new job, i think it's pretty fair to say that he didn't just quit here wholly of his own volition. . . JMO. . .

The latest word is that he would like to return to college if he can get the Texas A & M job. That's not open yet, but some word is their coach may be fired and Kubiak wants to return to his TX roots and coach that program.

So, of course it was a lot more than just his health. Mostly it was that Elway wanted to fire a bunch of his assistant coaches and wanted to see more of Paxton Lynch. Kubiak didn't want to fire any of his coaches, he's very loyal to them. And he clearly preferred Trevor Siemian, so much so that Kubiak and Dennison made the decision not to play Paxton at all in the final meaningless game - despite having announced earlier that week publicly that Lynch would play in the game (for a half).

Does that mean Elway "forced him out"? No. Elway forced Rick Dennison and some of his assistants out. Perhaps you could argue that Elway forced Wade Phillips out too - by replacing him with Joe Woods.

But, Kubiak would certainly still be here if he wanted to continue coaching - as long as he could stand the changes Elway wanted to make, including bringing in McCoy to call all the plays and re-design the offense. That would have amounted to a loss of power for Kubiak, so he preferred to leave.

But, the offense was beyond horrible last year, so those guys needed to be fired, and obviously Kubiak's firm hand on the offense didn't stop it from getting worse as the season progressed rather than better. If you demand to be totally in charge of something, and it turns into a disaster you can't complain if your boss wants someone else to handle that responsibility.

That doesn't mean you're getting instantly fired, it just means you might have some of your responsibilities re-assigned.

[Hawgdriver]

final meaningless game

The Broncos didn't play like the game had no meaning, even though they were out of the playoff picture, and I loved that. The Broncos players poured themselves into a game you call meaningless, I wonder why.

It was a shame Paxton didn't get some reps, but I could understand why Kubiak wouldn't bench Siemian.

BTW, I heard Cecil Lammey on 104.3 a few times last week. He has an unreasonable devotion to Paxton Lynch and comes across as a turd. Not the worst, but you'd hope for someone with more...gravitas...to be a "Broncos Insider." Hey, we all have opinions, right? You might love him and more power to you for it.

[Poet]

There is no reason for Lynch to not have gotten a ton of snaps. The game was over at halftime. Kubiak was being a turdling.

[BroncoJoe]

Siemian earned the right to start and complete the game.

[Poet]

Siemian earned the right to start and complete the game.

No, he didn't. Start, yeah. Complete? He's not a QBOTF in anyone's eyes, Kubiak even apologized for ******* it up and not giving the kid some snaps. It was shortsighted, selfish, and indefensible.

[Valar Morghulis]

No, he didn't. Start, yeah. Complete? He's not a QBOTF in anyone's eyes, Kubiak even apologized for ******* it up and not giving the kid some snaps. It was shortsighted, selfish, and indefensible.

He is the qb of my dreams

[Poet]

He is the qb of my dreams

Dream of a better ******* QB.

[Valar Morghulis]

Dream of a better ******* QB.

I bet rex Ryan has a tight spiral

[Hawgdriver]

No, he didn't. Start, yeah. Complete? He's not a QBOTF in anyone's eyes, Kubiak even apologized for ******* it up and not giving the kid some snaps. It was shortsighted, selfish, and indefensible.

You may not be seeing clearly, Siemian in your eyes. See? He is a QBOTF in someone's eyes. Wait, no you can't see. Because Siemian.

[Freyaka]

No, he didn't. Start, yeah. Complete? He's not a QBOTF in anyone's eyes, Kubiak even apologized for ******* it up and not giving the kid some snaps. It was shortsighted, selfish, and indefensible.

Just because YOU don't see him as a potential QBOTF doesn't mean there isn't ANYONE who sees him that way.

[BroncoJoe]

No, he didn't. Start, yeah. Complete? He's not a QBOTF in anyone's eyes, Kubiak even apologized for ******* it up and not giving the kid some snaps. It was shortsighted, selfish, and indefensible.

Broncos wanted to beat the Raiders. It worked. Your boy isn't ready yet. I hope he will be someday, but we wanted to beat the Raiders.

[Hawgdriver]

Just because YOU don't see him as a potential QBOTF doesn't mean there isn't ANYONE who sees him that way.

Actually, it does. It's his world. If he perceives a world as such, we have no power to coerce his thought or perception as he projects it onto the world outside his senses. Perhaps we cannot even coerce our own thought. This may just be an elaborate reality simulation. Hm.

If so, I'd like someone to hack it and tweak Trevor's variables to god-tier (mind out of the gutter, Dave). He seems like a decent kid.

[Simple Jaded]

The Broncos didn't play like the game had no meaning, even though they were out of the playoff picture, and I loved that. The Broncos players poured themselves into a game you call meaningless, I wonder why.

It was a shame Paxton didn't get some reps, but I could understand why Kubiak wouldn't bench Siemian.

BTW, I heard Cecil Lammey on 104.3 a few times last week. He has an unreasonable devotion to Paxton Lynch and comes across as a turd. Not the worst, but you'd hope for someone with more...gravitas...to be a "Broncos Insider." Hey, we all have opinions, right? You might love him and more power to you for it.

You want Lammey's opinion on fantasy football? Call his show.

You want Lammey's opinion on the draft or "scouting"? Cut out the middleman and go straight to Lance Zierlein.

[Hawgdriver]

You want Lammey's opinion on fantasy football? Call his show.

You want Lammey's opinion on the draft or "scouting"? Cut out the middleman and go straight to Lance Zierlein.

Cool. I don't do FF though.

Didn't see any reports on this board about Lynch poaching the head Broncos scout. That kinda blows.

[Hawgdriver]

I don't do FF though.

Because MO hates me. He blacklisted me from his fantasy league after what happened with his sister.

[Hawgdriver]

Just kidding MO. That's tacky.

[MOtorboat]

Because MO hates me. He blacklisted me from his fantasy league after what happened with his sister.

I have a sister?

She hot?

[Simple Jaded]

Cool. I don't do FF though.

Didn't see any reports on this board about Lynch poaching the head Broncos scout. That kinda blows.

That was a McDaniels crony anyway. Unfortunately the rumor is Elway is looking at that dysfunctional GM that just got fired from SF.

[Hawgdriver]

I have a sister?

She hot?

Yes.

[MOtorboat]

Yes.

Knock it off. That's my sister, you pervert.

[Hawgdriver]

Knock it off. That's my sister, you pervert.

Fine, you can have her back.

[Joel]

Actually, it does. It's his world. If he perceives a world as such, we have no power to coerce his thought or perception as he projects it onto the world outside his senses. Perhaps we cannot even coerce our own thought. This may just be an elaborate reality simulation. Hm.
We definitely cannot coerce our own thought. Not only are whole religions based on extensive, daily life-long meditation to discipline ones own thoughts, anyone who's ever fought an attraction to a friends boy/girlfriend or struggled to break up with a destructive partner of their own knows how difficult that is. Or substance abuse; even withdrawal from most physical addiction isn't DANGEROUS, "only" very unpleasant, yet even "mere" psychological dependence is hard to break.

A different Joel observed that "wanting something doesn't make it so; if it did, we would all learn to want a lot harder," but that also applies to wanting ITSELF.

Not to say it can't be done, but it's not a simple matter of "wanting it;" that only motivates many other equally necessary changes.


If so, I'd like someone to hack it and tweak Trevor's variables to god-tier (mind out of the gutter, Dave). He seems like a decent kid.
As long as ONE of them turns into a solid starter I'll be happy. But until we manage to keep a starting QB in game shape >7 games (something we haven't achieved since 2012) I prefer Lynch watch and learn, and not just because he's a raw player with a new playbook (though those are good reasons also.)

[PatriotsGuy]

Joel doesn't hate lawyers. I don't think I'm smarmy, although I do admit that I might not know that word's definition in its entirety.

Val, PAGS hasn't responded to me about replacing you as my European friend. So, unfortunately, I'm stuck with you.

Yes I did.

[Poet]

Yes I did.

How did I miss it?

What did you say?

Can I divorce myself of Val?

Am I chained to a Scottish monster?

Tell me your secrets.

[slim]

I have a sister?

She hot?

No, but she is eager.

[PatriotsGuy]

How did I miss it?

What did you say?

Can I divorce myself of Val?

Am I chained to a Scottish monster?

Tell me your secrets.

I think I said sure, what does it entail? Then you ignored me.

[Poet]

I think I said sure, what does it entail? Then you ignored me.

I'm so terribly sorry.

Essentially you just have to be mean to me and be a fancy foreign person. And laugh at my juvenile jokes because hey, who doesn't love a good dick and fart joke?

[Joel]

I'm so terribly sorry.

Essentially you just have to be mean to me and be a fancy foreign person. And laugh at my juvenile jokes because hey, who doesn't love a good dick and fart joke?
Farting on peoples dicks is no joke, and loved by few (but those few will pay extra for it. ;))

[Hawgdriver]

:shocked:

[Poet]

:shocked:

:shocked:

[Hawgdriver]

:shocked:

You blinked.

[Joel]

You blinked.
Two dick farts for flinching then. Probably would've "Reply with Quote"d had I known it'd start a new page.

[PatriotsGuy]

I'm so terribly sorry.

Essentially you just have to be mean to me and be a fancy foreign person. And laugh at my juvenile jokes because hey, who doesn't love a good dick and fart joke?

Yeah but I am not European, and it is not in my nature to be mean unless provoked.

[Poet]

Yeah but I am not European, and it is not in my nature to be mean unless provoked.

As an American, I believe all fancy white people are European. You know this as you are also an American.

[TXBRONC]

No, he didn't. Start, yeah. Complete? He's not a QBOTF in anyone's eyes, Kubiak even apologized for ******* it up and not giving the kid some snaps. It was shortsighted, selfish, and indefensible.

Dang King that's harsh. I don't think Siemian prove he was the quarterback of the future but he did ok for first year starter. I don't think he did anything to lose the job as the starter but I certainly don't think he did enough for anyone to be confident that he's undisputed starter going into next season.

[Poet]

Dang King that's harsh. I don't think Siemian prove he was the quarterback of the future but he did ok for first year starter. I don't think he did anything to lose the job as the starter but I certainly don't think he did enough for anyone to be confident that he's undisputed starter going into next season.

It is harsh, TX. I am a mean person filled with haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate!

[TXBRONC]

It is harsh, TX. I am a mean person filled with haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate!

I know anyone that gets in fights with teddy bears has to be filled to the brim with hate.

[Simple Jaded]

Hey Joel, John Benton renigged and took a job with Shanahan in SF, I was still right though.

[Joel]

Hey Joel, John Benton renigged and took a job with Shanahan in SF, I was still right though.
Only if you're a '9ers fan now. Maybe right that we should hire Shanny Jr. AND Benton, but then half the MB would be opening its wrists right now. ;)

[Simple Jaded]

Nope, I predicted it, it happened...no different than if he waited a year or more to take another job.

[Joel]

Except he never did even a MOMENTS work on this "job." Jerry Rice is more of a Bronco: He was gone halfway through camp, but at least he SHOWED UP for it.

[Simple Jaded]

Except he never did even a MOMENTS work on this "job." Jerry Rice is more of a Bronco: He was gone halfway through camp, but at least he SHOWED UP for it.

Too bad, so sad.