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Broncoknight30
01-01-2017, 06:04 PM
Huh, how ironic.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-01-2017, 06:10 PM
What's ironic about it?

Rick
01-01-2017, 06:13 PM
I am guessing because Manning was 9TD 17INT last year, not not sure what was ironic.

Broncoknight30
01-01-2017, 06:25 PM
I am guessing because Manning was 9TD 17INT last year, not not sure what was ironic.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/no-QqHQODns/maxresdefault.jpg

I guess now it's 18 TD passes. Still ironic

NightTerror218
01-01-2017, 07:51 PM
And we missed the playoffs

Nomad
01-01-2017, 07:56 PM
I am guessing because Manning was 9TD 17INT last year, not not sure what was ironic.

His satire is a failure, because Manning was the QB of a Super Bowl winning team.

Broncoknight30
01-01-2017, 08:41 PM
His satire is a failure, because Manning was the QB of a Super Bowl winning team.

That is the irony.

Broncoknight30
01-01-2017, 08:42 PM
And we missed the playoffs

I know.

That is the irony.

Northman
01-01-2017, 09:40 PM
No worries BK30. We know last year had little to do with the QB play anyway. Lol

Broncoknight30
01-01-2017, 10:00 PM
No worries BK30. We know last year had little to do with the QB play anyway. Lol

Still not entirely sure how they got it done. I guess my point is the offense last year really was not that much better than this year.

In fact the passing production was worse.

NightTerror218
01-01-2017, 10:02 PM
Still not entirely sure how they got it done. I guess my point is the offense last year really was not that much better than this year.

In fact the passing production was worse.

Offense was on gield longer, less 3 and outs and gave defense a little rest

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-01-2017, 10:28 PM
Offense was on gield longer, less 3 and outs and gave defense a little rest

Last years defense scored more points and got off the field faster because they were dominant agains the run.

I think the stench between last years offense and this years was a parallel.

NightTerror218
01-01-2017, 10:47 PM
Last years defense scored more points and got off the field faster because they were dominant agains the run.

I think the stench between last years offense and this years was a parallel.

This years team lead nfl in 3 and outs. Lastvyears did not. Manning made plays when they were needed period. It may nit have been pretty but he git the 1st down if game was on line.

Broncoknight30
01-01-2017, 11:00 PM
This years team lead nfl in 3 and outs. Lastvyears did not. Manning made plays when they were needed period. It may nit have been pretty but he git the 1st down if game was on line.

Just curious. What was last year's team ranked in 3 and outs?

I know in each play off game, the Broncos 3rd down conversions were abismal. Culminated in almost pure ineptitude in the SB where they were 1 for 14 on 3rd downs. That broke the dubious record of ineptitude held by Craig Morton in SB XII.

Btw, the utter lack of a running game and the offense being on constant 3rd and longs is a major factor.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-02-2017, 12:30 AM
This years team lead nfl in 3 and outs. Lastvyears did not. Manning made plays when they were needed period. It may nit have been pretty but he git the 1st down if game was on line.

He also turned the ball over more than Trevor. I respect your opinion NT, but I don't agree with you here.

King87
01-02-2017, 12:44 AM
Manning wouldn't have gotten sacked into the ground because he could read a defense. TS was awful at reading a defense. Really bad considering he did nothing but study, too.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-02-2017, 12:46 AM
Manning wouldn't have gotten sacked into the ground because he could read a defense. TS was awful at reading a defense. Really bad considering he did nothing but study, too.

Why did Manning turn the ball over so much?

King87
01-02-2017, 12:53 AM
Why did Manning turn the ball over so much?

He had one leg like a pirate. We drafted a pirate.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-02-2017, 01:18 AM
He had one leg like a pirate. We drafted a pirate.

#truthhurts

King87
01-02-2017, 01:21 AM
#truthhurts

I'm not saying I'd rather have him, either. I'm just saying TS got half his stats in two games, has no long ball ability, sucks on sideline throws, has no pocket presence, and I see him as a baby Alex Smith at best. He got line protection today and played like a game manager. Had about three big overthrows on deep balls. He literally does what I say he does, to a tee, and people just write it off as a first year starter issue.

we talk about him like he's our long term starter. We treated him like he's our long term started. It's horrifying.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-02-2017, 01:25 AM
I'm not saying I'd rather have him, either. I'm just saying TS got half his stats in two games, has no long ball ability, sucks on sideline throws, has no pocket presence, and I see him as a baby Alex Smith at best. He got line protection today and played like a game manager. Had about three big overthrows on deep balls. He literally does what I say he does, to a tee, and people just write it off as a first year starter issue.

we talk about him like he's our long term starter. We treated him like he's our long term started. It's horrifying.

I disagree with you on arm talent. He has a lot of it. His footwork is sloppy sometimes. He holds the ball too long.

He does not lack arm strength

MOtorboat
01-02-2017, 01:31 AM
I disagree with you on arm talent. He has a lot of it. His footwork is sloppy sometimes. He holds the ball too long.

He does not lack arm strength

Yes he does. He has OK arm talent.

King87
01-02-2017, 01:36 AM
I disagree with you on arm talent. He has a lot of it. His footwork is sloppy sometimes. He holds the ball too long.

He does not lack arm strength

He has to put his entire body into a deep throw. It also means his mechanics aren't the hottest. Watching him throw in KC was embarrassing. It's passable. It kills me that our starter was so physically limited.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-02-2017, 01:41 AM
He has to put his entire body into a deep throw. It also means his mechanics aren't the hottest. Watching him throw in KC was embarrassing. It's passable. It kills me that our starter was so physically limited.

It's mechanics, not arm talent, imo.

King87
01-02-2017, 01:52 AM
It's mechanics, not arm talent, imo.

Every article on him that I read at best says he can put some zip on the ball. He was, in those articles, listed as poor on deep ball throws.

So he's either not improving for years on mechanics, or what else?

I can't find anything to be excited about as a prospect, man. I'm trying. I'm trying to get stoked for a camp battle. I'm trying to get stoked for the possibility that he's playing for us as a starter next year.

MOtorboat
01-02-2017, 01:57 AM
Every article on him that I read at best says he can put some zip on the ball. He was, in those articles, listed as poor on deep ball throws.

So he's either not improving for years on mechanics, or what else?

I can't find anything to be excited about as a prospect, man. I'm trying. I'm trying to get stoked for a camp battle. I'm trying to get stoked for the possibility that he's playing for us as a starter next year.

Don't really need scouting reports from two years ago. He can't throw the out route with consistency and struggles with accuracy and hang time on deep balls. That's a lack of arm strength. Sure, he can zip it across the middle from time to time - like his pass to DT past a defender today for a first down - but he doesn't have the pure arm strength talent of some quarterbacks. The only person I've seen that couldn't make those over the middle throws every now and then was Tebow.

That doesn't preclude him from being a starting quarterback, btw, it's just one possible reason. His accuracy is more concerning to me. He played well in the first half today, but that throw to Thomas was telling. It was off target by three or four yards and Thomas was wide open having sat down in the zone. Yes, there was a linebacker underneath, but a professional quarterback makes that throw with zip on the money. Even one that has only had 14 starts.

King87
01-02-2017, 01:58 AM
Don't really need scouting reports from two years ago. He can't throw the out route with consistency and struggles with accuracy and hang time on deep balls. That's a lack of arm strength. Sure, he can zip it across the middle from time to time - like his pass to DT past a defender today for a first down - but he doesn't have the pure arm strength talent of some quarterbacks. The only person I've seen that couldn't make those over the middle throws every now and then was Tebow.

That doesn't preclude him from being a starting quarterback, btw, it's just one possible reason. His accuracy is more concerning to me. He played well in the first half today, but that throw to Thomas was telling. It was off target by three or four yards and Thomas was wide open having sat down in the zone. Yes, there was a linebacker underneath, but a professional quarterback makes that throw with on the money. Even one that has only had 14 starts.

http://www.insidenu.com/2015/4/26/8498167/nfl-draft-capsule-trevor-siemian-northwestern-quarterback


Weaknesses

Siemian struggled with his decision making at times this year and really struggled with his deep ball. He often underthrew open wide receivers, either resulting in interceptions or incompletions on plays that could have gone for much more. At times Siemian looked uncomfortable in the pocket and went to his check down options too quickly. He has trouble making the long throws to the sidelines, as seen in the interception he threw against Ohio State in the video above. Inside the hashmarks, he shows a lot more zip on the ball than he does on those outside the numbers. He's not a particularly agile runner and won't often make defenders miss. And when in the redzone, Siemian struggles at fitting the ball into small windows.


He's the same guy....

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-02-2017, 02:03 AM
He is the same guy. It's not because of arm strength, it's because of mechanics.

King87
01-02-2017, 02:05 AM
He is the same guy. It's not because of arm strength, it's because of mechanics.

He either has a poor arm or is an idiot who can't learn over multiple years.

He's no better at the game now than he was at the start of the year. He hasn't improved on his weaknesses, and his 'strengths' are utter shit.

He was supposed to help us rebuild for a year. Well, we put all of our resources into him. So we either go forward with a limited guy and further retard Lynch's development, or we put Lynch in after not making the postseason and getting nothing out of the year.

It blows. At best, at being super optimistic, he can be Alex Smith.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-02-2017, 02:11 AM
Step away from the ledge. He might not learn good mechanics, but he's nothing like Alex Smith. They're vastly different in what they bring.

MOtorboat
01-02-2017, 02:13 AM
Step away from the ledge. He might not learn good mechanics, but he's nothing like Alex Smith. They're vastly different in what they bring.

True. Alex Smith is Trevor Siemian with running ability.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-02-2017, 02:23 AM
True. Alex Smith is Trevor Siemian with running ability.

Siemian has more arm talent, by a wide margin.

King87
01-02-2017, 02:27 AM
Siemian has more arm talent, by a wide margin.

No sir. Coming out of the draft Smith's arm was rated fairly highly. He was the number one overall pick for a reason. At various points in his time in SF he showcased it. The pure WCO in KC eliminates the deep pass.

MOtorboat
01-02-2017, 02:33 AM
Siemian has more arm talent, by a wide margin.

No.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-02-2017, 02:35 AM
You two are the only people I've seen say he has no arm talent.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-02-2017, 02:36 AM
Alex Smith wasn't rated high due to arm strength.

MOtorboat
01-02-2017, 02:36 AM
You two are the only people I've seen say he has no arm talent.

Didn't say that.

King87
01-02-2017, 02:38 AM
You two are the only people I've seen say he has no arm talent.

I have a comment to make here, but I can't do it nicely - it's not really aimed at you- but in essence the scouting reports say his arm is average. If you're not hearing that here, then I kindly suggest you reflect on that and think why that might be. Look, he's not Chad Penningtoning it up. But his arm is very average, and to get it to the point where he can actually threaten the defense over the top his mechanics have to be much better. He's had mechanic issues dating back to college. They're not getting better in the NFL.

That's terrifying. And I frankly don't want the team to invest the resources into him to develop him. Because his ability and talent is poor.

King87
01-02-2017, 02:39 AM
Alex Smith wasn't rated high due to arm strength.

He sure wasn't. But his arm was rated better than average. He was rated highly because he was really smart, there were few QB's in the draft, his was accurate as hell, and he was very mobile.

7DnBrnc53
01-02-2017, 03:16 AM
No sir. Coming out of the draft Smith's arm was rated fairly highly. He was the number one overall pick for a reason. At various points in his time in SF he showcased it. The pure WCO in KC eliminates the deep pass.

Smith had no business being picked #1 overall 12 years ago. I remember thinking that at the time. He was probably taken that high because QB's seem to be bumped up way higher than they should be due to need at times (see Locker, Ponder, and Gabbert from 2011). And, as for A-Rod, he fell (at least partially) because of two words: Jeff Tedford. At the time, when a QB had him as coach in college, they didn't do that well in the NFL. I think that both Smith and A-Rod should have been drafted in the 20's, not just A-Rod.

King87
01-02-2017, 03:18 AM
He got stuck on a horrible niners team with horrible coaches. I think he could have been a really good player (he's pretty solid now) had he been on a team that didn't give him a new offense every year.

As as prospect he makes TS look like shit. That's what should make us sad.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-02-2017, 03:23 AM
I'm the third, Al. I don't think Siemian has enough "arm talent". Siemian can be an NFL QB but the system has to be suited to him. He'd probably be okay in a WC, run first, dink and dunk offense where the intermediate to deep balls are few and far between, but he'll never be a top 10 QB in this league. He just can't make all the throws with enough accuracy. Some of his passes have some zip, but only when he can stop, set his feet, and really put his whole body into them. On those occasions, he's rarely accurate beyond about 12-15 yards.

In short, Siemian is a guy who you can win a Super Bowl with, but everything around him has to work properly. He's not a playmaker. He's a guy who could have a nice career as a backup. Most teams would probably live to have him in that role.

Timmy!
01-02-2017, 05:36 AM
Irony....


http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/c8/c856a793cb9254bd49e82c67610a07e311d69d99274a4d7c74 602986beef6658.jpg

Broncoknight30
01-02-2017, 07:57 AM
Irony....


http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/c8/c856a793cb9254bd49e82c67610a07e311d69d99274a4d7c74 602986beef6658.jpg

Well, there are many claiming that Peyton Manning made the difference last year. Including Broncos fans on this thread. Saying how he put players in the right position and how he always converted 3rd downs last year in crucial times. Not true, but many believe it.

https://rlv.zcache.com/irony_definition_mouse_pad-r35ca8d95863942f4aa4b08f4f3b6f5bb_x74vi_8byvr_700. jpg

Siemian had virtually the exact OPPOSITE TD to INT ratio than Manning last year. Manning had one of the worst (if not the worst) TD to INT ratio for a SB winning QB. Of course last year Broncos won the SB while this year the Broncos did not even make the play offs.

There is an irony there. Clear irony too.

Northman
01-02-2017, 10:08 AM
Manning wouldn't have gotten sacked into the ground because he could read a defense. TS was awful at reading a defense. Really bad considering he did nothing but study, too.

Not entirely sure about that VK. Last year with a somewhat better line Manning was sacked 16 times. Siemian (even though his first year as a starter) was sacked 31 times but i think we can all agree the line this year was worse. Bottom line, despite all that Manning had very little mobility and probably would of at the very least been sacked 20-25 times this year. And considering he was a turnover machine last year i can only imagine how bad his TD/INT ratio would of been this year especially with the defense not being nearly as good as last year.

Northman
01-02-2017, 10:15 AM
I'm the third, Al. I don't think Siemian has enough "arm talent". Siemian can be an NFL QB but the system has to be suited to him. He'd probably be okay in a WC, run first, dink and dunk offense where the intermediate to deep balls are few and far between, but he'll never be a top 10 QB in this league. He just can't make all the throws with enough accuracy. Some of his passes have some zip, but only when he can stop, set his feet, and really put his whole body into them. On those occasions, he's rarely accurate beyond about 12-15 yards.

In short, Siemian is a guy who you can win a Super Bowl with, but everything around him has to work properly. He's not a playmaker. He's a guy who could have a nice career as a backup. Most teams would probably live to have him in that role.

Well, so far no one on our QB roster is a playmaker yet. I just dont understand all this nonsense people are talking about with these guys. Both are first year starters what the F did people really expect in the first year? Seriously. Are people really that so stubborn they wont allow a QB to develop anymore before trying to trash them or dismiss them? Its not even about whether he will or wont be a great QB to me, its that its only one year for goodness sake. It doesnt matter who the QB is, you have to allow them time to develop and its VERY surprising to me that some people who i think are very knowledgeable members here are failing to grasp that easy concept. Its so weird to me how people have reacted to our QB's this year.

Broncoknight30
01-02-2017, 10:19 AM
Not entirely sure about that VK. Last year with a somewhat better line Manning was sacked 16 times. Siemian (even though his first year as a starter) was sacked 31 times but i think we can all agree the line this year was worse. Bottom line, despite all that Manning had very little mobility and probably would of at the very least been sacked 20-25 times this year. And considering he was a turnover machine last year i can only imagine how bad his TD/INT ratio would of been this year especially with the defense not being nearly as good as last year.

Every time someone brings up how great Manning was last year in "reading defenses," or "putting players in the right position," it confuses me. What good is all of that if the Broncos are going to be 1 for 14 on 3rd down conversions in the SB? How could that be, if Manning was so great at reading defenses and putting players in the right position?

Against the Steelers in the play offs last year the Broncos offense was 3 for 15 on 3rd downs.

Against the Pats they were 6 for 17. A little better, not good though.

Not quite sure the great reading of defenses really did. What, the 4 yard TD in the SB?

NightTerror218
01-02-2017, 11:10 AM
I think he lacks arm talent not just arm strength. His WR had to make amazing on deep balls and out routes. Also issues leading a WR on routes, he had one good one but with WR like DT thats his bread and butter. Yestersay was his best came for zip on ball but he missed on all deep throws.

People will say he is a first year starter yes but nit a rookie since he knew playbook oppossed toa rookie who is learning it as he goes.

Northman
01-02-2017, 11:14 AM
Every time someone brings up how great Manning was last year in "reading defenses," or "putting players in the right position," it confuses me. What good is all of that if the Broncos are going to be 1 for 14 on 3rd down conversions in the SB? How could that be, if Manning was so great at reading defenses and putting players in the right position?

Against the Steelers in the play offs last year the Broncos offense was 3 for 15 on 3rd downs.

Against the Pats they were 6 for 17. A little better, not good though.

Not quite sure the great reading of defenses really did. What, the 4 yard TD in the SB?


Agreed.

The only value Manning really brought to the team last year was his experience and leadership. While those things are important it wasnt like Manning was doing his impression of John Elway for us. No, Manning was VERY fortunate that the defense was one of the best ever last year. I like Manning just like the next guy but for some people to try and make him out to be this great player last year is quite ridiculous. For the type of player that Manning was throughout his career last year was very below average by those standards and was equally as frustrating to watch as a Bronco fan.

Northman
01-02-2017, 11:15 AM
I think he lacks arm talent not just arm strength. His WR had to make amazing on deep balls and out routes. Also issues leading a WR on routes, he had one good one but with WR like DT thats his bread and butter. Yestersay was his best came for zip on ball but he missed on all deep throws.

People will say he is a first year starter yes but nit a rookie since he knew playbook oppossed toa rookie who is learning it as he goes.

There is still a massive difference between knowing the playbook and actually playing in live games. You may not think so but that is the case. Simply knowing the playbook isnt going to make a QB great, they have to get the experience on the field as well.

Broncoknight30
01-02-2017, 11:32 AM
I think he lacks arm talent not just arm strength. His WR had to make amazing on deep balls and out routes. Also issues leading a WR on routes, he had one good one but with WR like DT thats his bread and butter. Yestersay was his best came for zip on ball but he missed on all deep throws.

People will say he is a first year starter yes but nit a rookie since he knew playbook oppossed toa rookie who is learning it as he goes.

Arm strength is something I hear all of the time with scouts and prognosticators.

There have been MANY QBs who have had GREAT ARMS that scouts and fans fall in love with, only to see their careers suck. Ryan Leaf and Jay Cutler come to mind. Jamarcus Russell had one of the biggest arms ever. So much for arms.

Manning or Brady were never really known for their GREAT ARMS and....well, so much for arms.

I am not all that impressed with TS either mind you. I do think (brought this up, so not to sound redundant) a SOLID OL is more important to put together BEFORE you find that QB.

With a solid OL, the running game flourishes. The 3rd and long situations are minimized. 3rd and 2 does not seem like such a daunting task to convert. Clean pockets are common and so down the field routes tend to open up with enough time.

To me TS is probably a very serviceable back up QB, which is quite valuable on a team. Bottom line is if this team does not adequately address the issues on the line, it will not matter if it was a healthy Tom Brady back there. You ever see how he becomes when his pocket collapses?

NightTerror218
01-02-2017, 11:36 AM
There is still a massive difference between knowing the playbook and actually playing in live games. You may not think so but that is the case. Simply knowing the playbook isnt going to make a QB great, they have to get the experience on the field as well.

We see new veteran QB come into new systems and only look decent or average their first year also. Which has nothing to do with play time but learning the playbook. Learning playbook is a struggle.

Davii
01-02-2017, 11:36 AM
Agreed.

The only value Manning really brought to the team last year was his experience and leadership. While those things are important it wasnt like Manning was doing his impression of John Elway for us. No, Manning was VERY fortunate that the defense was one of the best ever last year. I like Manning just like the next guy but for some people to try and make him out to be this great player last year is quite ridiculous. For the type of player that Manning was throughout his career last year was very below average by those standards and was equally as frustrating to watch as a Bronco fan.

#1 seed and home field advantage on the line, and I think there was still a chance the Chiefs could take the division, Manning took over in the final game of the season and led us to a come-from-behind victory. In a game where the offense struck first and then had the wheels fall of, Osweiler was shaky with two INTs and the other Offensive players weren't helping by losing two more fumbles. We weren't moving the ball and SD was beating the OL like a drum. Manning came in and checked into runs more than he passed, and made very quick, short passes when he did throw, but he led us to the win.

Was Manning the Peyton of old? No. But he was good enough, his leadership made us better, and even the defense improved when Manning came back in. Manning at least knew to change a play call on third and 1 when the call was to run directly into an 8 or 9 in the box obvious blitz.

Broncoknight30
01-02-2017, 11:59 AM
#1 seed and home field advantage on the line, and I think there was still a chance the Chiefs could take the division, Manning took over in the final game of the season and led us to a come-from-behind victory. In a game where the offense struck first and then had the wheels fall of, Osweiler was shaky with two INTs and the other Offensive players weren't helping by losing two more fumbles. We weren't moving the ball and SD was beating the OL like a drum. Manning came in and checked into runs more than he passed, and made very quick, short passes when he did throw, but he led us to the win.

Was Manning the Peyton of old? No. But he was good enough, his leadership made us better, and even the defense improved when Manning came back in. Manning at least knew to change a play call on third and 1 when the call was to run directly into an 8 or 9 in the box obvious blitz.

Ok and in that home game against the Chiefs Manning was what, 5 for 20 with 4 ints in the first half?

Brock in his second start led the Broncos back from a 14 point deficit against the Pats. In the snow and the Pats had not lost a 4th quarter 14 point lead in over a decade.

It did not just start last year with Manning. Really the entire second half of 2014 season, and then the first half of 2015. 16 games between those two seasons he threw nearly 30 ints.

He provided a spark to the team against the chargers. Good. Good for him. He was done.

Northman
01-02-2017, 12:08 PM
#1 seed and home field advantage on the line, and I think there was still a chance the Chiefs could take the division, Manning took over in the final game of the season and led us to a come-from-behind victory. In a game where the offense struck first and then had the wheels fall of, Osweiler was shaky with two INTs and the other Offensive players weren't helping by losing two more fumbles. We weren't moving the ball and SD was beating the OL like a drum. Manning came in and checked into runs more than he passed, and made very quick, short passes when he did throw, but he led us to the win.

Was Manning the Peyton of old? No. But he was good enough, his leadership made us better, and even the defense improved when Manning came back in. Manning at least knew to change a play call on third and 1 when the call was to run directly into an 8 or 9 in the box obvious blitz.

That was my point. Manning didnt do anything with his arm, it was just his experience and leadership which i said was certainly valuable but people act like he was throwing up 50 TD's and 5,000 yds passing last year. At the end of the day it was the defense that enabled us to have that struggling offense because if Manning had to deal with this year's defense the weight of him having to actually make plays goes way up.

Davii
01-02-2017, 12:20 PM
That was my point. Manning didnt do anything with his arm, it was just his experience and leadership which i said was certainly valuable but people act like he was throwing up 50 TD's and 5,000 yds passing last year. At the end of the day it was the defense that enabled us to have that struggling offense because if Manning had to deal with this year's defense the weight of him having to actually make plays goes way up.

I haven't seen anyone act like that.

Northman
01-02-2017, 12:32 PM
I haven't seen anyone act like that.

That was basically Terror's defense in his claim (although i exaggerated the TD's and Yds thing) that Manning somehow played better than Siemian this year. There were a lot of things that worked better for Manning last year that didnt for Siemian this year including the experience in the NFL as a QB.

NightTerror218
01-02-2017, 12:40 PM
That was basically Terror's defense in his claim (although i exaggerated the TD's and Yds thing) that Manning somehow played better than Siemian this year. There were a lot of things that worked better for Manning last year that didnt for Siemian this year including the experience in the NFL as a QB.

Never said that. I said manning was clutch and made plays when we needed them. Manning also did not lead the league in 3 and outs.

King87
01-02-2017, 01:38 PM
The reading of the defense helped the line do something, anything, and it resulted in the win against the Chargers. It also kept defenses honest. It was the last gift of a shattered man.

King87
01-02-2017, 01:40 PM
Not entirely sure about that VK. Last year with a somewhat better line Manning was sacked 16 times. Siemian (even though his first year as a starter) was sacked 31 times but i think we can all agree the line this year was worse. Bottom line, despite all that Manning had very little mobility and probably would of at the very least been sacked 20-25 times this year. And considering he was a turnover machine last year i can only imagine how bad his TD/INT ratio would of been this year especially with the defense not being nearly as good as last year.

I don't think that line was better. I think PM made that line look better. I'm using hyperbole. I believe, regardless of turnovers, that we would have still scored more points with him.

Northman
01-02-2017, 02:18 PM
I don't think that line was better. I think PM made that line look better. I'm using hyperbole. I believe, regardless of turnovers, that we would have still scored more points with him.

Disagree entirely of course.

weazel
01-02-2017, 02:45 PM
Don't really need scouting reports from two years ago. He can't throw the out route with consistency and struggles with accuracy and hang time on deep balls. That's a lack of arm strength. Sure, he can zip it across the middle from time to time - like his pass to DT past a defender today for a first down - but he doesn't have the pure arm strength talent of some quarterbacks. The only person I've seen that couldn't make those over the middle throws every now and then was Tebow.

That doesn't preclude him from being a starting quarterback, btw, it's just one possible reason. His accuracy is more concerning to me. He played well in the first half today, but that throw to Thomas was telling. It was off target by three or four yards and Thomas was wide open having sat down in the zone. Yes, there was a linebacker underneath, but a professional quarterback makes that throw with zip on the money. Even one that has only had 14 starts.

but the O-Line and all that junk

King87
01-02-2017, 03:36 PM
Disagree entirely of course.

Unforgivable betrayal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Hawgdriver
01-02-2017, 03:37 PM
Never said that. I said manning was clutch and made plays when we needed them. Manning also did not lead the league in 3 and outs.

No, but he did in 1 and outs and 2 and outs.

King87
01-02-2017, 04:01 PM
Disagree entirely of course.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. I didn't want PFM to come back, fwiw. I think we traded problems.

NightTerror218
01-02-2017, 10:51 PM
No, but he did in 1 and outs and 2 and outs.

What? You make no sense.

Hawgdriver
01-02-2017, 10:59 PM
What? You make no sense.

Think interceptions.

NightTerror218
01-02-2017, 11:01 PM
Think interceptions.

If 3 and outs cant as interceptions that siemian lead the league.

And i dont think many had many ints on first or second down of a series.

Hawgdriver
01-02-2017, 11:03 PM
If 3 and outs cant as interceptions that siemian lead the league.

And i dont think many had many ints on first or second down of a series.

Interceptions are evenly distributed on 1st, 2nd, 3d down, maybe 3d down most since it's most likely a passing down. Manning led league in int's, so he was actually worse than Siemian in 3 and outs if you factor in the interceptions and the field position penalty of an int. Not including Manning's interceptions when discussing the ills of Siemian's 3 and outs is a worthless comparison, and even worse, misleading.

NightTerror218
01-03-2017, 12:15 AM
Interceptions are evenly distributed on 1st, 2nd, 3d down, maybe 3d down most since it's most likely a passing down. Manning led league in int's, so he was actually worse than Siemian in 3 and outs if you factor in the interceptions and the field position penalty of an int. Not including Manning's interceptions when discussing the ills of Siemian's 3 and outs is a worthless comparison, and even worse, misleading.

3 and outs show how much the defense is one the field. And you cant argue distribution on 1st 2nd and 3rd down since i am taking 3 plays about not an interception 12 plays into a drive.

MOtorboat
01-03-2017, 03:28 AM
Interceptions are evenly distributed on 1st, 2nd, 3d down, maybe 3d down most since it's most likely a passing down. Manning led league in int's, so he was actually worse than Siemian in 3 and outs if you factor in the interceptions and the field position penalty of an int. Not including Manning's interceptions when discussing the ills of Siemian's 3 and outs is a worthless comparison, and even worse, misleading.

Just to put this in perspective a little:

Manning's absolute worst season, the season where he couldn't throw the ball very well at all when he was 38 is comparable to Trevor Siemian at age 25. Think about that.

Great. This year's 56 3 and outs and 11 interceptions are about equal to last year's 52 3 and outs and 23 interceptions.

We now turn to Major League:

"- At first, it was really high. - Who gives a shit? It's gone."

Broncoknight30
01-03-2017, 03:44 AM
If 3 and outs cant as interceptions that siemian lead the league.

And i dont think many had many ints on first or second down of a series.

I would say a lack of a running game contributes to 3rd and longs, and 3rd and longs would certainly contribute to 3 and outs. Last year the Broncos ranked 17th in rushing offense and this year they rank 27th.

Bottom line is Manning had the worst TD to INT ratio of a winning SB QB EVER. 9 TDs to 17 ints.

Oh, and in that SB, he threw a real boneheaded INT that could very well have cost the Broncos the game.

Not sure why certain people are ignoring that the Broncos were 1 for 14 on 3rd downs in the SB. Which broke the record of ineptitude held by Craig Morton in XII.

There is only ONE reason and only ONE reason the Broncos won the SB. Only ONE. It was not Manning, regardless of the SPARK he lit against the Chargers. Osweiler lit a spark in the regular season against the Pats. Equally important.

MOtorboat
01-03-2017, 03:51 AM
I would say a lack of a running game contributes to 3rd and longs, and 3rd and longs would certainly contribute to 3 and outs. Last year the Broncos ranked 17th in rushing offense and this year they rank 27th.

Bottom line is Manning had the worst TD to INT ratio of a winning SB QB EVER. 9 TDs to 17 ints.

Oh, and in that SB, he threw a real boneheaded INT that could very well have cost the Broncos the game.

Not sure why certain people are ignoring that the Broncos were 1 for 14 on 3rd downs in the SB. Which broke the record of ineptitude held by Craig Morton in XII.

There is only ONE reason and only ONE reason the Broncos won the SB. Only ONE. It was not Manning, regardless of the SPARK he lit against the Chargers. Osweiler lit a spark in the regular season against the Pats. Equally important.

Cool. Manning was awful when he was done. Siemian is awful with a season behind him.

Frankly, I don't see the point. I mean, we could always pull the scoreboard line. One won a Super Bowl. The other choked down the stretch.

Broncoknight30
01-03-2017, 04:13 AM
Cool. Manning was awful when he was done. Siemian is awful with a season behind him.

Frankly, I don't see the point. I mean, we could always pull the scoreboard line. One won a Super Bowl. The other choked down the stretch.
Yeah, I know they won the SB. Got it. Oh TS imo is not a true starting QB in the NFL. He is a serviceable back up imo. That is not the point though.

I do find it ironic that his TD to INT ratio is basically the exact opposite of Mannings last year. Last year Broncos won it all and this year did not make the play offs.

Some people do not see the irony. As a matter of fact they say I misused the word. To which I am not quite sure what the education system is like in Colorado, but that is not making it look good.

I tend to say stats are like bikinis....

What they reveal is suggestive.
What they conceal is vital.

The IRONY of the STATS between TS and Mannings LAST YEAR shows how STATS are often misleading. Nevertheless, it is still ironic considering the juxtaposed TD to INT ratio between the two and results that happened.

Northman
01-03-2017, 08:56 AM
Just to put this in perspective a little:

Manning's absolute worst season, the season where he couldn't throw the ball very well at all when he was 38 is comparable to Trevor Siemian at age 25. Think about that.

Great. This year's 56 3 and outs and 11 interceptions are about equal to last year's 52 3 and outs and 23 interceptions.

We now turn to Major League:

"- At first, it was really high. - Who gives a shit? It's gone."


Perfectly said, which is why im baffled when people try to peddle the idea that it was so much better last year when in reality it wasnt.

Hawgdriver
01-03-2017, 12:18 PM
3 and outs show how much the defense is one the field. And you cant argue distribution on 1st 2nd and 3rd down since i am taking 3 plays about not an interception 12 plays into a drive.

Ah, so all the interceptions came after multiple first downs? You realize the Broncos averaged 5.5 plays per drive last year, compared to 5.3 this year? Similar offensive ineptitude, similar 3 & out frequency. Except more interceptions. What is your point again?

Hawgdriver
01-03-2017, 12:21 PM
Cool. Manning was awful when he was done. Siemian is awful with a season behind him.

Frankly, I don't see the point. I mean, we could always pull the scoreboard line. One won a Super Bowl. The other choked down the stretch.

I thought they banned you. :lol:

Just kidding, Moseph.

Time will tell if your contempt is justified, but it's odd to find one so astute so out of step with the consensus.

NightTerror218
01-03-2017, 12:49 PM
Ah, so all the interceptions came after multiple first downs? You realize the Broncos averaged 5.5 plays per drive last year, compared to 5.3 this year? Similar offensive ineptitude, similar 3 & out frequency. Except more interceptions. What is your point again?

My point is that you are wrong about thw 3 and out frequency. Fact that 2016 broncos led league in 3 and outs.

Who if we rack up garbage time yards to bump to bump up those stats.

Point is there were more 3 and outs this season then last season.

You are arguing to argue with speculation and nothing else.

Broncos average more yards per play last year too.

Broncoknight30
01-03-2017, 01:31 PM
My point is that you are wrong about thw 3 and out frequency. Fact that 2016 broncos led league in 3 and outs.

Who if we rack up garbage time yards to bump to bump up those stats.

Point is there were more 3 and outs this season then last season.

You are arguing to argue with speculation and nothing else.

Broncos average more yards per play last year too.

Broncos running game was 17th last year.

27th this year.

Before you say that was because of the Manning factor (and you will ) the Broncos best run production came on back to back weeks last year when Manning was not there. Against the Bears and Pats where they rushed for over 150 yards as a team. Broncos were finally able to run the stretch and they did.

Those SEVEN GAMES Osweiler played in skew the stats somewhat. For a time there, the offense responded better to osweiler. Want to see the utter abismal production under Manning for those first 8 games? In 8 games he threw 17 ints.

Do, do you understand this?

Or not?

Hawgdriver
01-03-2017, 01:32 PM
My point is that you are wrong about thw 3 and out frequency. Fact that 2016 broncos led league in 3 and outs.

Who if we rack up garbage time yards to bump to bump up those stats.

Point is there were more 3 and outs this season then last season.

You are arguing to argue with speculation and nothing else.

Broncos average more yards per play last year too.

The Broncos offense last season averaged 5.5 plays per drive. This season it's 5.3. That means a few more 3&outs this season, but not enough to make a meaningful difference. There were, however, a significantly higher number of QB-caused turnovers. When the ball is turned over this way, the defense has less time to recover without the punt and television timeout. I think your point is that the offense this season was worse because more 3&outs means the offense was actively hampering the ability of the defense to perform well. I say there is no significant difference between the season-average 5.5 plays per drive and this season's 5.3, especially when you account for the absence of the punt and timeout with an interception.

I need you to clarify what the part in bold means. Looks like it might be 'who cares...'

Freyaka
01-03-2017, 01:38 PM
And we missed the playoffs

So that's all on the QB?

Freyaka
01-03-2017, 01:45 PM
Offense was on gield longer, less 3 and outs and gave defense a little rest

It was 29:03 this year on average and 30:30 last year. It was a little better, but not enough to be statistically significant IMO. Our third down percentage was identical this year compared to last year (34%)

We can say "oh well, they were better here and worse here" but when it boils down to it, they were both equally inept. It was crap both seasons no matter how you try and spin it to glorify one vs the other. Last year we had things fall our way, this year we did not. Really the difference maker wasn't our offense or our defense, it was that the other teams in the division were better and more competitive. The other thing is, we really weren't in better shape last year aside from being more competitive down the stretch...this year at the end of the season we just rolled over and died.

Freyaka
01-03-2017, 01:48 PM
Just curious. What was last year's team ranked in 3 and outs?

I know in each play off game, the Broncos 3rd down conversions were abismal. Culminated in almost pure ineptitude in the SB where they were 1 for 14 on 3rd downs. That broke the dubious record of ineptitude held by Craig Morton in SB XII.

Btw, the utter lack of a running game and the offense being on constant 3rd and longs is a major factor.

This years offense had an average of 18.1 first downs and a first down percentage of 34%. Last year it was 19.6 per game (so a little over 1 more first down per game) and 34% 3rd down percentage.

NT's argument that we were better at getting first downs last year simply does not hold water at all. If 1.5 first downs per game is the difference between winning and losing...We were crap to begin with and barely scraping by.

Freyaka
01-03-2017, 01:50 PM
Yes he does. He has OK arm talent.

You know who had arm talent? Jay Cutler. You know who did not have arm talent? Peyton Manning...Arm talent isn't always as important as we fans make it. He seems to have a sharp mind, he needs to work on things like his deep to medium accuracy, but he can improve.

MOtorboat
01-03-2017, 01:53 PM
You know who had arm talent? Jay Cutler. You know who did not have arm talent? Peyton Manning...Arm talent isn't always as important as we fans make it. He seems to have a sharp mind, he needs to work on things like his deep to medium accuracy, but he can improve.

Right. That's fine. Let's just not fool ourselves into thinking Siemian has top arm strength. He doesn't. Siemian needs to work on everything over 8 yards.

Broncoknight30
01-03-2017, 02:01 PM
Right. That's fine. Let's just not fool ourselves into thinking Siemian has top arm strength. He doesn't. Siemian needs to work on everything over 8 yards.

My problem with TS is he does not have this great upside. Meaning, I think he is what he is. If I were to give him a grade, it would be a c+ at best. He misses too many passes and he misses them the same way. He shows flashes, but every QB does.

Imo, he will never be a franchise QB. Meaning you need to be solid B QB to be a franchise guy. That is a Stafford or a cousins or a Flacco type. He is not that, and I don't think he will be.

He did ok. Hell, better than PM last year. Hopefully, the new staff will come with a solid QB coach.

The reason I want kyle is because the nomenclature of the west coast is the same. The philosophy is basically the same, except I think Kyle is more dynamic at this point and not as milquetoast as Dennison.

MOtorboat
01-03-2017, 02:03 PM
My problem with TS is he does not have this great upside. Meaning, I think he is what he is. If I were to give him a grade, it would be a c+ at best. He misses too many passes and he misses them the same way. He shows flashes, but every QB does.

Imo, he will never be a franchise QB. Meaning you need to be solid B QB to be a franchise guy. That is a Stafford or a cousins or a Flacco type. He is not that, and I don't think he will be.

He did ok. Hell, better than PM last year. Hopefully, the new staff will come with a solid QB coach.

The reason I want kyle is because the nomenclature of the west coast is the same. The philosophy is basically the same, except I think Kyle is more dynamic at this point and not as milquetoast as Dennison.

I agree. They might have to get through next season with him, but at some point you need a better quarterback than Trevor Siemian.

Northman
01-03-2017, 02:12 PM
I dont know where you guys are getting your information from but according to this Denver was 29th in 3 and outs this year which is horrible. But guess what? The Broncos were 30th in 3 and outs last year which is a percentage lower than this year.

Final Verdict: Both seasons were total shit in terms of 3 and outs and neither was really better than the other so pretending otherwise is moronic at this point.

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/three-and-out-percentage/2015/

Hawgdriver
01-03-2017, 02:17 PM
It was 29:03 this year on average and 30:30 last year.

TOP is too easily distorted by run/pass selection to use in this argument. If you pass effectively and your opponent runs without success, you will still lose TOP because of countoff on bad running plays.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-03-2017, 02:25 PM
TOP is too easily distorted by run/pass selection to use in this argument. If you pass effectively and your opponent runs without success, you will still lose TOP because of countoff on bad running plays.

I would expect our TOP to be better last year because we were so good at stopping the run.

Freyaka
01-03-2017, 03:00 PM
Right. That's fine. Let's just not fool ourselves into thinking Siemian has top arm strength. He doesn't. Siemian needs to work on everything over 8 yards.

Sure, but so do a lot of first year starters...A lot of those deep misses tend to be timing issues. Typically you should have most of the timing issues worked out mid to end of season. Obviously, we were still seeing struggles, but I'm not overly worried about it at this point. If he still struggles during the pre-season after another offeseason to develop that timing, then I'll be concerned about it. Right now I'm just eager to get to camp and preseason and see growth out of one or both of our QB's so we know where we are going to be at for next year.

Freyaka
01-03-2017, 03:03 PM
I dont know where you guys are getting your information from but according to this Denver was 29th in 3 and outs this year which is horrible. But guess what? The Broncos were 30th in 3 and outs last year which is a percentage lower than this year.

Final Verdict: Both seasons were total shit in terms of 3 and outs and neither was really better than the other so pretending otherwise is moronic at this point.

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/three-and-out-percentage/2015/

That's the point I was getting at as well...If you are going to say something and claim it as fact...Back it up. In this case it cannot be backed up because there is just no factual basis for it. We were bad this year, we were equally bad last year. You can't candy coat one to make it look better. It's still trash underneath.

Hawgdriver
01-03-2017, 04:59 PM
Just to put this in perspective a little:

Manning's absolute worst season, the season where he couldn't throw the ball very well at all when he was 38 is comparable to Trevor Siemian at age 25. Think about that.

Great. This year's 56 3 and outs and 11 interceptions are about equal to last year's 52 3 and outs and 23 interceptions.

We now turn to Major League:

"- At first, it was really high. - Who gives a shit? It's gone."

If he picks up 2017 without improving, I will be as much or more of a critic of TS as you are.

Freyaka
01-03-2017, 05:03 PM
If he picks up 2017 without improving, I will be as much or more of a critic of TS as you are.

Exactly...I'll give the guy some slack because it's his first season and if you compare his first season stats to just about any other first season QB (both the good and bad ones) you are going to have similar results. If he doesn't show improvement in the offseason, then we can start taking a real critical look at if we need to continue with him, but to already write him off as a "game manager" or say "this is his ceiling" we don't know that...It's his first freaking year not his 5th. If he's not showing any growth going into camp/preseason, then I will understand (and probably join in) with the criticism, but I don't get why everyone's so ready to just throw him out as garbage.

NightTerror218
01-03-2017, 11:43 PM
That's the point I was getting at as well...If you are going to say something and claim it as fact...Back it up. In this case it cannot be backed up because there is just no factual basis for it. We were bad this year, we were equally bad last year. You can't candy coat one to make it look better. It's still trash underneath.

I can back it up. Exact numbers from norths site that i used as well.

2015 had 52 3 and outs out of 199 drives vs 56 out of 198.

And prior to the Raiders we were 32 out of 32 for 3 and outs. They talked about it during the chiefs game.

2015 averaged about .5 yard more per play as well.

Jsteve01
01-04-2017, 10:17 PM
How do the injuries to his throwing arm and leg not factor into this discussion? Talk during camp this year was that TS had the best arm of all the qbs on the roster. If you think you can sustain injuries to your arm and your base and not have it affect your ability to push the ball downfield with accuracy then you may have never thrown a football. Remember Peyton overthrowing guys last year with the foot and rib injuries? It was because he was having to put everything he had into those throws. Think overswinging in baseball or golf The kid injured both shoulders, the leg and had to play with poor protection and virtually zero run game after week 7.

Am I ready to anoint the kid? Hell no but sheesh to act as if none of these things impacted his ability to play is ridiculous. Look at all the guys who were consensus sure thing franchise qbs who got beat up early in their careers and never recovered. Carr and Couch come to mind.

Hawgdriver
01-04-2017, 10:30 PM
How do the injuries to his throwing arm and leg not factor into this discussion? Talk during camp this year was that TS had the best arm of all the qbs on the roster. If you think you can sustain injuries to your arm and your base and not have it affect your ability to push the ball downfield with accuracy then you may have never thrown a football. Remember Peyton overthrowing guys last year with the foot and rib injuries? It was because he was having to put everything he had into those throws. Think overswinging in baseball or golf The kid injured both shoulders, the leg and had to play with poor protection and virtually zero run game after week 7.

Am I ready to anoint the kid? Hell no but sheesh to act as if none of these things impacted his ability to play is ridiculous. Look at all the guys who were consensus sure thing franchise qbs who got beat up early in their careers and never recovered. Carr and Couch come to mind.

Taking the long view is fair. I'm not sold on TS, but who knows? If he has a strong will to win and improve maybe he'll show he can start. Like, for real, and win games and such.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-04-2017, 10:43 PM
Taking the long view is fair. I'm not sold on TS, but who knows? If he has a strong will to win and improve maybe he'll show he can start. Like, for real, and win games and such.

For realsies?

Hawgdriver
01-04-2017, 10:50 PM
For realsies?

I'm putting all my friendship magic into it.

Broncoknight30
01-04-2017, 10:51 PM
How do the injuries to his throwing arm and leg not factor into this discussion? Talk during camp this year was that TS had the best arm of all the qbs on the roster. If you think you can sustain injuries to your arm and your base and not have it affect your ability to push the ball downfield with accuracy then you may have never thrown a football. Remember Peyton overthrowing guys last year with the foot and rib injuries? It was because he was having to put everything he had into those throws. Think overswinging in baseball or golf The kid injured both shoulders, the leg and had to play with poor protection and virtually zero run game after week 7.

Am I ready to anoint the kid? Hell no but sheesh to act as if none of these things impacted his ability to play is ridiculous. Look at all the guys who were consensus sure thing franchise qbs who got beat up early in their careers and never recovered. Carr and Couch come to mind.
That does lead me to another issue with TS. Like I have said, I do think he is OK. Not a franchise style QB. Do not get me wrong, I don't think a QB needs to be Brady, Manning, Rogers or Luck. I give them A ratings obviously. However, I would grade TS as a C+ at best. I think you need to be at the very least a B rating to be a franchise quality QB. I put Stafford or Flacco or Ryan in that category.

The issue that we have not brought up with TS is durability. I do not think he is that durable. That was one of the issues he had when he was scouted coming out of college. He is not exactly a physical specimen. He is a bit thin and I think a bit frail for a long career in the NFL as a STARTER. I do think he has shown he can make a good career as a back up. Which is valuable to any franchise.

Ala....dare I say Gary Kubiak? Anyway, you get the point. I have respect for TS. I don't think he has much upside. I think he is who he is. I want to see Lynch and I personally would love for an offensive guy like Shanahan or that KC OC be in charge. They both coach the west coast and the transition would be relatively seemless. Pretty sure Elway favors that system, and I am sure he drafted Lynch to operate that he system he himself favors.

Jsteve01
01-04-2017, 11:01 PM
That does lead me to another issue with TS. Like I have said, I do think he is OK. Not a franchise style QB. Do not get me wrong, I don't think a QB needs to be Brady, Manning, Rogers or Luck. I give them A ratings obviously. However, I would grade TS as a C+ at best. I think you need to be at the very least a B rating to be a franchise quality QB. I put Stafford or Flacco or Ryan in that category.

The issue that we have not brought up with TS is durability. I do not think he is that durable. That was one of the issues he had when he was scouted coming out of college. He is not exactly a physical specimen. He is a bit thin and I think a bit frail for a long career in the NFL as a STARTER. I do think he has shown he can make a good career as a back up. Which is valuable to any franchise.

Ala....dare I say Gary Kubiak? Anyway, you get the point. I have respect for TS. I don't think he has much upside. I think he is who he is. I want to see Lynch and I personally would love for an offensive guy like Shanahan or that KC OC be in charge. They both coach the west coast and the transition would be relatively seemless. Pretty sure Elway favors that system, and I am sure he drafted Lynch to operate that he system he himself favors.

he has essentially the same build as Brady and had a better season statistically than said Tom Brady in his first year as a starter. Am I saying he's Tom? Obviously not I just find the lack of grace for a young kid in his first year as a starter is laughable.

King87
01-04-2017, 11:07 PM
he has essentially the same build as Brady and had a better season statistically than said Tom Brady in his first year as a starter. Am I saying he's Tom? Obviously not I just find the lack of grace for a young kid in his first year as a starter is laughable.

He started in an era of stat inflation. Brady was also a significantly more intelligent QB than TS. It's a horrible comparison, in my opinion. Brady, as I recall, didn't struggle with sideline throws to the extent that TS did. Brady did, however, struggle with the deep ball.

TS has had plenty of grace. Most people here will tell you it's all on the line. Even though he essentially sucked ass the last quarter of the season. I mean the bar was so low for him that after the first game with two picks we were stoked. And we should have been. People were predicting a four or five turnover game against the Panthers and their (then and full force) defense.

Any criticism of him is met with 'the o-line is bad' or 'he's a rookie/first year starter'. It wasn't until the last three games that anyone else sans a few other posters gave him any blame. I get worried when I don't see a player improve throughout the year. If I ask you what he improved on it sure isn't the deep ball, reading defenses, pocket presence, sideline throws, or any of the stuff that he's bad at.

That is terrifying.

NightTerror218
01-04-2017, 11:23 PM
He started in an era of stat inflation. Brady was also a significantly more intelligent QB than TS. It's a horrible comparison, in my opinion. Brady, as I recall, didn't struggle with sideline throws to the extent that TS did. Brady did, however, struggle with the deep ball.

TS has had plenty of grace. Most people here will tell you it's all on the line. Even though he essentially sucked ass the last quarter of the season. I mean the bar was so low for him that after the first game with two picks we were stoked. And we should have been. People were predicting a four or five turnover game against the Panthers and their (then and full force) defense.

Any criticism of him is met with 'the o-line is bad' or 'he's a rookie/first year starter'. It wasn't until the last three games that anyone else sans a few other posters gave him any blame. I get worried when I don't see a player improve throughout the year. If I ask you what he improved on it sure isn't the deep ball, reading defenses, pocket presence, sideline throws, or any of the stuff that he's bad at.

That is terrifying.

Brady also has one of the most insane work ethics like manning. Brady worked with QB guru coach every off season relentlessly. As much as i hate the guy. He made it because he work so hard. He shows what dedication can do for you. He also has luxury of same offensive system for so long under belicheat.

King87
01-04-2017, 11:27 PM
Brady also has one of the most insane work ethics like manning. Brady worked with QB guru coach every off season relentlessly. As much as i hate the guy. He made it because he work so hard. He shows what dedication can do for you. He also has luxury of same offensive system for so long under belicheat.

He played a pure WCO early on. Then they went to a strong running game based WCO with Dillon. Then the Randy Moss years turned that offensive machine into a juggernaut. Now they run this strange middle of th field offense with WC tendencies. Brady has had a bit of a evolution of a QB in that sense. But I will tell you this: Brady is the pinnacle of hardwork. He's like Kobe, Jordan, Rice, etc.

Broncoknight30
01-04-2017, 11:29 PM
he has essentially the same build as Brady and had a better season statistically than said Tom Brady in his first year as a starter. Am I saying he's Tom? Obviously not I just find the lack of grace for a young kid in his first year as a starter is laughable.

The lack of grace?

NightTerror218
01-04-2017, 11:34 PM
Sure, but so do a lot of first year starters...A lot of those deep misses tend to be timing issues. Typically you should have most of the timing issues worked out mid to end of season. Obviously, we were still seeing struggles, but I'm not overly worried about it at this point. If he still struggles during the pre-season after another offeseason to develop that timing, then I'll be concerned about it. Right now I'm just eager to get to camp and preseason and see growth out of one or both of our QB's so we know where we are going to be at for next year.

His timing should be worked out with a year with WR. Its an accuracy issue when you cant depend on WR making an outstanding play everytime on the ball.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2017, 12:32 AM
I'm putting all my friendship magic into it.

I'll release some ferry dust shortly

Dzone
01-05-2017, 12:38 AM
How did he do compared to Wentz and any other rookie QB not named DaK Prescott? Siemian probably kicked their ass

King87
01-05-2017, 12:53 AM
How did he do compared to Wentz and any other rookie QB not named DaK Prescott? Siemian probably kicked their ass

http://www.nfl.com/player/carsonwentz/2555259/careerstats



http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2511109/trevor-siemian

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2017, 01:29 AM
Taking the long view is fair. I'm not sold on TS, but who knows? If he has a strong will to win and improve maybe he'll show he can start. Like, for real, and win games and such.


For realsies?


I'm putting all my friendship magic into it.


I'll release some ferry dust shortly

This didn't end well. The ferry dust didn't go over well at all with my wife.

Freyaka
01-05-2017, 07:47 AM
http://www.nfl.com/player/carsonwentz/2555259/careerstats



http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2511109/trevor-siemian

So he outplays Wentz a first round draft pick, but we still want to say he's just an "ok" QB, I mean maybe that is what he'll be, but I'll take his extra TD's and less INT's over went's 300-400 yards more.

Broncoknight30
01-05-2017, 08:20 AM
So he outplays Wentz a first round draft pick, but we still want to say he's just an "ok" QB, I mean maybe that is what he'll be, but I'll take his extra TD's and less INT's over went's 300-400 yards more.

Just wondering. What grade do you give him? Do you see a lot of upside with him?

Just curious.

I do think, and it has been proven that a QB can get it done, even if he is not an elite QB.

Ever see ALL of the ELITES? Hell, dating back to Favre and really all of them.

Brady won it with elite defenses, and in 2014 that was Bradys best defense in 6 seasons.

Manning or the other Manning? No need for explanation.

Rodgers? In 2010 when he won it, see where the Packers defense ranked that year.

Russell? Roethlisberger? How about Favre in 1996? Packers ranked 1st in defense.

You seeing any patterns? Even the Montana teams. He gets a majority of the credit, but check out those defenses of the 49ers from 1981 to 2000.

Anyway, TS did ok to me. However, I personally do not see so much upside as to just do away with the first rounder Lynch. Who, may very well have a higher upside.

That is the issue or issues with me.

Freyaka
01-05-2017, 08:53 AM
Just wondering. What grade do you give him? Do you see a lot of upside with him?

Just curious.

I do think, and it has been proven that a QB can get it done, even if he is not an elite QB.

Ever see ALL of the ELITES? Hell, dating back to Favre and really all of them.

Brady won it with elite defenses, and in 2014 that was Bradys best defense in 6 seasons.

Manning or the other Manning? No need for explanation.

Rodgers? In 2010 when he won it, see where the Packers defense ranked that year.

Russell? Roethlisberger? How about Favre in 1996? Packers ranked 1st in defense.

You seeing any patterns? Even the Montana teams. He gets a majority of the credit, but check out those defenses of the 49ers from 1981 to 2000.

Anyway, TS did ok to me. However, I personally do not see so much upside as to just do away with the first rounder Lynch. Who, may very well have a higher upside.

That is the issue or issues with me.

I never said anything about just "doing away with Lynch" but I'm also not as big on just tossing TS aside like some around here. My ideal situation is to not give Paxton the job until he earns it and if TS proves in the next season that he's good enough to be the guy going forward then we have Paxton for trade bait (assuming Paxton doesn't improve enough to take the job from him)

I'm not trying to toss anyone aside, I want to give TS a chance to either win the job or lose it, same with Paxton. I think it's stupid to just had the job over to Paxton simply because he was a first round pick, make the kid earn it and prove he deserves it. If he can't beat out TS, then so be it.

King87
01-05-2017, 10:16 PM
So he outplays Wentz a first round draft pick, but we still want to say he's just an "ok" QB, I mean maybe that is what he'll be, but I'll take his extra TD's and less INT's over went's 300-400 yards more.

Did he outplay him? Because one of those guys was asked to carry an offense and the other guy was asked to do as little as possible.

Wentz at least looked like a big time QB. Outside of one game, TS never did.

At the end of the year TS beat up on a Raiders team that mailed it in, was shit against the Patriots, was utterly pathetic against the Chiefs, sucked against the Titans...when we needed him, he sucked and wasn't 'clutch' which you have to be when your offensive output is utter crapola.

So he doesn't have any actual physical talent. He's shown zero QB intellect -I haven't given up on this yet though- and he sucked for us when we needed him the most...

I'd rather have the guy who was asked to do more and is a physical stud. Sans a few guys, the best QB's historically tend to be big talents. And yes, there are plenty of big talent busts, and I get it. But man...TS is not an exciting guy and he (probably) can only be serviceable to us if our defense is good. Could you imagine watching that guy try to sling the ball with a massive deficit every week?

Northman
01-05-2017, 10:35 PM
Wentz at least looked like a big time QB. Outside of one game, TS never did.



Did he? Maybe in the first 5 games but after that it was all down hill and this was with an Eagle team with a 14th ranked Oline compared to Denver's shit hole of a line. I dont want to shit on Wentz because at the end of the day he was a rookie but im just baffled as to how anyone can proclaim Wentz great and in the same breath hold Trevor to some higher standard with a much shittier oline.

Jsteve01
01-05-2017, 10:39 PM
i mean give the kid some grace, cut the kid some slack, give him a break....etc etc

King87
01-05-2017, 10:39 PM
Did he? Maybe in the first 5 games but after that it was all down hill and this was with an Eagle team with a 14th ranked Oline compared to Denver's shit hole of a line. I dont want to shit on Wentz because at the end of the day he was a rookie but im just baffled as to how anyone can proclaim Wentz great and in the same breath hold Trevor to some higher standard with a much shittier oline.

I don't think Wentz is great. I don't think anyone is great until they have two great seasons.

But if God hit me up and was like "yo, Kinger, you can get Wentz or TS," I'm taking Wentz so fast it'll tear my ACL.

Northman
01-05-2017, 10:42 PM
I don't think Wentz is great. I don't think anyone is great until they have two great seasons.

But if God hit me up and was like "yo, Kinger, you can get Wentz or TS," I'm taking Wentz so fast it'll tear my ACL.

And thats fine but if i had to be honest until i saw both with the same talent and lines (meaning much better) i really dont know where either stand. Its amazingly enough that Trevor had not only more TD's than Wentz but less Int's also. Im curious do you base your choice because of where they were drafted? Or do you really think all that much of Wentz?

Jsteve01
01-05-2017, 10:42 PM
the inaccuracy is my big concern but again the lack of a running game, our inability to protect the edges and zero play action game most definitely contributed. Toss in the bum wheel and shoulder and I'm willing to say that unless Lynch beats the shorts off of him in preseason Im willing to cut him some slack. barring a package deal for Payton and Brees I just don't seen anybody else out there that makes sense.

Northman
01-05-2017, 10:44 PM
the inaccuracy is my big concern but again the lack of a running game, our inability to protect the edges and zero play action game most definitely contributed. Toss in the bum wheel and shoulder and I'm willing to say that unless Lynch beats the shorts off of him in preseason Im willing to cut him some slack. barring a package deal for Payton and Brees I just don't seen anybody else out there that makes sense.

Thats another great point. The Eagles were ranked 11th in rushing this year which i know helps any QB compared to the 27th ranked rushing attack we trotted out there this year. There is just so much that didnt go right around Siemian this year to really make a serious evaluation of him.

King87
01-05-2017, 10:46 PM
the inaccuracy is my big concern but again the lack of a running game, our inability to protect the edges and zero play action game most definitely contributed. Toss in the bum wheel and shoulder and I'm willing to say that unless Lynch beats the shorts off of him in preseason Im willing to cut him some slack. barring a package deal for Payton and Brees I just don't seen anybody else out there that makes sense.

The inaccuracy, lack of arm, weakness on recognizing defenses, poor pocket presence...the kid did fine in that he didn't lose us games -at least until the end of the year- but he didn't play well by and large. Half of his TD's came in two games. Look at his game logs and you'll see a lot of subpar performances and inflated completion percentages.

It hurts my soul that he might be our starter. I'm getting pessimistic.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2017, 10:52 PM
Wentz is a rare physical specimin, of course you'd take him over TS.

King87
01-05-2017, 10:54 PM
Wentz is a rare physical specimin, of course you'd take him over TS.

Most QB's drafted to be a franchise guy fall into that category. That's the point: it's easier to put up with young QB poor play when one guy has big talent and the other barely made it into the league. Also, to be fair to Wentz, he didn't eat bench for a year and study behind Peyton Manning.

MOtorboat
01-05-2017, 10:56 PM
The inaccuracy, lack of arm, weakness on recognizing defenses, poor pocket presence...the kid did fine in that he didn't lose us games -at least until the end of the year- but he didn't play well by and large. Half of his TD's came in two games. Look at his game logs and you'll see a lot of subpar performances and inflated completion percentages.

It hurts my soul that he might be our starter. I'm getting pessimistic.

Analysis that can be assessed independently of the running game and the offensive line.

King87
01-05-2017, 10:58 PM
Analysis that can be assessed independently of the running game and the offensive line.

Yep. Many times in the last few weeks he overthrew a WR that would have been a TD. A lot of his game is dookie butter, and he doesn't have much upside. dookie butter.

Northman
01-05-2017, 11:00 PM
You guys are amazing.

King87
01-05-2017, 11:03 PM
You guys are amazing.

The offensive line holding up and him missing deep balls right left and center is an observable fact that the line doesn't impact.

The line holding up and him failing miserably at sideline throws right, left, and center is an observable fact that the line doesn't impact.

His lack of arm strength is obvious. The line doesn't impact that. Everything mentioned is literally not impacted by the line. He clearly has massive holes in his game, and I'm not sure he's worth starting. My biggest fear is that he develops into a middle of the road QB and we trick ourselves into thinking he's the man. I really don't want to watch the 16th-18th best QB try to win games with a defense that's built to win now. And that's if he even develops that highly.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2017, 11:07 PM
Most QB's drafted to be a franchise guy fall into that category. That's the point: it's easier to put up with young QB poor play when one guy has big talent and the other barely made it into the league. Also, to be fair to Wentz, he didn't eat bench for a year and study behind Peyton Manning.

No they don't. Goff is not remotely like that. There have only been a few in the last 4 or 5 years that physically gifted, and on another note TS is probably a better athlete than Goff.

MOtorboat
01-05-2017, 11:08 PM
No they don't. Goff is not remotely like that. There have only been a few in the last 4 or 5 years that physically gifted, and on another note TS is probably a better athlete than Goff.

Goff looks like an awful, awful mistake by the Rams.

King87
01-05-2017, 11:12 PM
No they don't. Goff is not remotely like that. There have only been a few in the last 4 or 5 years that physically gifted, and on another note TS is probably a better athlete than Goff.

Most QB's drafted to be a franchise guy are taken in the first round. If like, IDK, 90 percent of those guys are physical studs, would you concede the point? Because other than Tebow, I can't think of a first round QB who didn't have great potential and ability taken in the first round.

I mean, I guess Chad Pennington is a thing. But come on...don't fight it.

Northman
01-05-2017, 11:12 PM
The offensive line holding up and him missing deep balls right left and center is an observable fact that the line doesn't impact.

The line holding up and him failing miserably at sideline throws right, left, and center is an observable fact that the line doesn't impact.

His lack of arm strength is obvious. The line doesn't impact that. Everything mentioned is literally not impacted by the line. He clearly has massive holes in his game, and I'm not sure he's worth starting. My biggest fear is that he develops into a middle of the road QB and we trick ourselves into thinking he's the man. I really don't want to watch the 16th-18th best QB try to win games with a defense that's built to win now. And that's if he even develops that highly.

Well, if John and company feel he can do it just strap yourself in. One year does not a QB make so if he sticks around and doesnt cut it John will find someone who will whether it be Paxton or someone else.

King87
01-05-2017, 11:14 PM
Well, if John and company feel he can do it just strap yourself in. One year does not a QB make so if he sticks around and doesnt cut it John will find someone who will whether it be Paxton or someone else.

If TS can actually look like a real QB and not the 'oh shit we don't have a Qb and we drafted a raw guy so lets throw him out there and pray to Baby Jesus' I'll be happy. I want to see our QB play well.

Right now TS's ceiling looks like a dookie butter version of Alex Smith.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2017, 11:16 PM
Goff looks like an awful, awful mistake by the Rams.

I was flabbergasted when they passed up Wentz to take Goff

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2017, 11:20 PM
Most QB's drafted to be a franchise guy are taken in the first round. If like, IDK, 90 percent of those guys are physical studs, would you concede the point? Because other than Tebow, I can't think of a first round QB who didn't have great potential and ability taken in the first round.

I mean, I guess Chad Pennington is a thing. But come on...don't fight it.

I wold concede the point if you were accurate in your statement 🤤

Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Alex Smith, Matt Ryan, etc. None of those guys are physical specimens. There's usually one at most in that category in each draft.

Northman
01-05-2017, 11:21 PM
If TS can actually look like a real QB and not the 'oh shit we don't have a Qb and we drafted a raw guy so lets throw him out there and pray to Baby Jesus' I'll be happy. I want to see our QB play well.

Right now TS's ceiling looks like a dookie butter version of Alex Smith.


Ive seen a lot worse QB's play for Denver so i guess im not that upset about it. lol

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2017, 11:21 PM
Besides King, I'm uncomfortable with your overtures. 😆

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2017, 11:21 PM
Ive seen a lot worse QB's play for Denver so i guess im not that upset about it. lol

Valid point 🤣

King87
01-05-2017, 11:24 PM
I wold concede the point if you were accurate in your statement ��

Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Alex Smith, Matt Ryan, etc. None of those guys are physical specimens. There's usually one at most in that category in each draft.

Alex Smith has shown great durability and mobility. He was drafted so highly not just because of his football mind. Eli Manning has the proper height and build, some mobility, and a very big arm. Ryan has the huge arm, height, and weight. Rivers is the weakest guy physically here with an adequate arm, but he graded out very well physically.

Compare them to the frail and weak armed TS. Who does happen to have developed some mobility because his scouting report out of school didn't have him as mobile.

First round QB's tend to be tall, strong armed, and durable. If not they sometimes are very large and durable, with big arms. Like Big Ben. Or small, with big arms, and either hyper accurate or very fast and elusive, like RG3 before the injury, or Bradford, sans the mobility but with the accuracy.

From a talent standpoint, every guy I just listed is light years ahead of TS. And yeah, talent isn't everything, but its definitely a thing. And TS hasn't shown any other trait to make me patient on his development.

King87
01-05-2017, 11:25 PM
Ive seen a lot worse QB's play for Denver so i guess im not that upset about it. lol

I have watched Akili Smith and Gus Ferotte start for a team I rooted for. My father loved me too much to let me watch Klinger, so there's that.

Northman
01-05-2017, 11:26 PM
Alex Smith was drafted because there simply wasnt any other QB to compete with in that draft. lol The Niners simply had no choice at that point.

King87
01-05-2017, 11:27 PM
Alex Smith was drafted because there simply wasnt any other QB to compete with in that draft. lol The Niners simply had no choice at that point.
Aaron Rodgers would like a word with you, sir.

King87
01-05-2017, 11:27 PM
Besides King, I'm uncomfortable with your overtures. ��

Why do you continue to mock me when I have been very civil to you? Why do you do this to me?

Northman
01-05-2017, 11:30 PM
Aaron Rodgers would like a word with you, sir.

My point is there was no other top 10 QB projected in that draft to compete with Smith.

King87
01-05-2017, 11:32 PM
My point is there was no other top 10 QB projected in that draft to compete with Smith.

Rodgers was a top ten talent that the league pooped all over and regrets. He's actually one of the reasons QB's are overdrafted.


Northman, just hold me and tell me it's going to be okay.

Northman
01-05-2017, 11:34 PM
Rodgers was a top ten talent that the league pooped all over and regrets. He's actually one of the reasons QB's are overdrafted.


Northman, just hold me and tell me it's going to be okay.


Yes, its going to be ok. We survived Brian Griese, We survived Kyle Orton, and We survived Tim Tebow. We will be fine no doubt about it.

King87
01-05-2017, 11:35 PM
Yes, its going to be ok. We survived Brian Griese, We survived Kyle Orton, and We survived Tim Tebow. We will be fine no doubt about it.

Tebow is better than TS....we are going to die, man.

Northman
01-05-2017, 11:36 PM
Tebow is better than TS....we are going to die, man.

Oh man..... you are truly lost. lmao

King87
01-05-2017, 11:37 PM
Oh man..... you are truly lost. lmao

We make the playoffs with TT.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-05-2017, 11:49 PM
King, did you just laud the arm strength of Matt Ryan and Eli Manning?

I'm pretty sure you did.

King87
01-05-2017, 11:52 PM
Lacks the arm strength to challenge the deep secondary, as his long throws tend to flutter or hang up long enough for defenders to attack the ball in flight (see 2006 Brigham Young and Wake Forest contests and 2007 Massachusetts and Virginia Tech games)..
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/matt-ryan?id=310

It's crazy how he hit all those deep balls in college. It's crazy how he hits all those deep balls in the pros.

It's crazy how TS has done neither.

What's interesting to me is that his deep balls don't flutter and haven't fluttered for quite some time. Meanwhile TS has to literally put everything he has into a pass and as a result overthrows the WR.

Oh...did you think you were being sneaky?

King87
01-05-2017, 11:57 PM
http://giantswire.usatoday.com/2016/07/23/read-ernie-accorsis-original-scouting-report-on-qb-eli-manning/

Here's the excerpt from a scout that loved Manning. Note the 'throwing streaks down the sideline' part...

Y'all just can't see what I see. But the turth will let you free.

Jsteve01
01-06-2017, 12:03 AM
your complete refusal to acknowledge the impact that the injuries to his throwing shoulder and plant leg had on his ability to throw outs and deep routes is baffling. Your posts are some of my favorite. You're witty and charming and dreamy but seriously...you can't injure your throwing arm and then later jack up your plant foot and not have it affect velocity.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-06-2017, 12:03 AM
I'm not a seeker of turth, as you call it.

Jsteve01
01-06-2017, 12:08 AM
Siemian: It’s unclear whether the amount of unknown behind the former seventh-round pick helps or hurts his chances to win the job. Siemian might have the strongest arm of the bunch and the most comfort in running Kubiak’s offense. Siemian’s accuracy has improved, but it still isn’t his forte. His in-game NFL experience isn’t much different from Lynch’s. Does Kubiak believe Siemian can lead the team to a win when it counts?

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/07/22/denver-broncos-quarterback-battle-training-camp/



His velocity during camp was good enough to be touted as perhaps better than Lynch's and we saw it last year during preseason. Also we forget that he looked surprisingly athletic early in the season and completely comfortable running boot action until he started getting beat up week in and out.

King87
01-06-2017, 12:13 AM
There is no actual way his arm is stronger than Lynch's. Lynch was heralded for having a cannon that was basically all I heard during his scouting reports.

The knock on Lynch was more about his consistency throwing the ball well with repetition. I.E. mechanics.

Consistency of arm strength has been overstated. Inconsistent weight transfer in delivery forces him to muscle some throws. Perimeter throws lack velocity and will nose*dive on him.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/paxton-lynch?id=2555316

King87
01-06-2017, 12:13 AM
I'm not a seeker of turth, as you call it.

Shoutout to Paul Pierce.

Jsteve01
01-06-2017, 12:20 AM
There is no actual way his arm is stronger than Lynch's. Lynch was heralded for having a cannon that was basically all I heard during his scouting reports.

The knock on Lynch was more about his consistency throwing the ball well with repetition. I.E. mechanics.

Consistency of arm strength has been overstated. Inconsistent weight transfer in delivery forces him to muscle some throws. Perimeter throws lack velocity and will nose*dive on him.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/paxton-lynch?id=2555316 so

I get it so the generic scouting report from NFL.com trumps what the beat reporter who watched them both every day in camp has to say? And yes Lynch has a huge arm but I don't think Cameron Wolfe watched a Griese junior every day and determined he might have the best arm on the roster. Come on bro. thats weak sauce

King87
01-06-2017, 12:25 AM
so

I get it so the generic scouting report from NFL.com trumps what the beat reporter who watched them both every day in camp has to say? And yes Lynch has a huge arm but I don't think Cameron Wolfe watched a Griese junior every day and determined he might have the best arm on the roster. Come on bro. thats weak sauce

They're scouting reports are as 'valid' as anyone else. I never once, from all the various sources, heard that Lynch had anything less than a very strong arm. And I'm sorry, but I've watched TS play and that arm is not strong. I've read his scouting reports, they said his arm was adequate, at least some of them did.

What do you want from me?

Jsteve01
01-06-2017, 12:29 AM
prior to the injuries the arm looked plenty strong. It surprised me because I read the same reports but mechanics were always a huge issue before he got coached up

MOtorboat
01-06-2017, 12:30 AM
your complete refusal to acknowledge the impact that the injuries to his throwing shoulder and plant leg had on his ability to throw outs and deep routes is baffling. Your posts are some of my favorite. You're witty and charming and dreamy but seriously...you can't injure your throwing arm and then later jack up your plant foot and not have it affect velocity.

If injuries are why he performed poorly he shouldn't have been playing.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-06-2017, 12:31 AM
If injuries are why he performed badly he shouldn't have been playing.

Yeah, because our options were vast.

King87
01-06-2017, 12:32 AM
your complete refusal to acknowledge the impact that the injuries to his throwing shoulder and plant leg had on his ability to throw outs and deep routes is baffling. Your posts are some of my favorite. You're witty and charming and dreamy but seriously...you can't injure your throwing arm and then later jack up your plant foot and not have it affect velocity.

I presume you're posting to Mo.

MOtorboat
01-06-2017, 12:37 AM
Yeah, because our options were vast.

At least try something else. He was trash down the stretch. If he was injured, at least play someone healthy. That's on Kubiak, not Siemian.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-06-2017, 12:50 AM
At least try something else. He was trash down the stretch. If he was injured, at least play someone healthy. That's on Kubiak, not Siemian.

I can understand why they didn't play Lynch. I can understand why they thought a gimpy Siemian gave them a better chance of winning.

MOtorboat
01-06-2017, 12:53 AM
I can understand why they didn't play Lynch. I can understand why they thought a gimpy Siemian gave them a better chance of winning.

I can understand why. But it's hard to know if it was the right decision. It doesn't seem like it.

King87
01-06-2017, 12:57 AM
A gimpy TS is amongst the worst QB's in the league.

I guess the thinking is that he's a leader and respected, and less raw, so you go with him. IDK. I was never much of a Cal Ripken Jr. guy, tbh.

Freyaka
01-06-2017, 12:58 AM
Tebow is better than TS....we are going to die, man.

You could at least try to mask the trolling couldn't you?

King87
01-06-2017, 01:00 AM
You could at least try to mask the trolling couldn't you?

One of the things that I do is I defend a point I believe in and then take it to the uber extreme as a joke. You're still newish here, so I'll give you a pass. I thought it would get some laughs and we'd all have fun.

I was wrong. I'm sorry. I didn't mean any harm.

Freyaka
01-06-2017, 01:08 AM
One of the things that I do is I defend a point I believe in and then take it to the uber extreme as a joke. You're still newish here, so I'll give you a pass. I thought it would get some laughs and we'd all have fun.

I was wrong. I'm sorry. I didn't mean any harm.

https://i.imgur.com/odt8hZw.gif

King87
01-06-2017, 01:12 AM
I'm not that skinny.

Northman
01-06-2017, 08:43 AM
A gimpy TS is amongst the worst QB's in the league.

I guess the thinking is that he's a leader and respected, and less raw, so you go with him. IDK. I was never much of a Cal Ripken Jr. guy, tbh.

Everything you just laid out here sounds a LOT like Peyton Manning last year. :laugh:

LawDog
01-06-2017, 11:41 AM
A gimpy TS is amongst the worst QB's in the league.



So is a healthy Eli Manning, at least this year according to the various rankings where he actually falls below Trev.

King87
01-06-2017, 01:21 PM
So is a healthy Eli Manning, at least this year according to the various rankings where he actually falls below Trev.

http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/careerstats


Is there a certain point where Eli was injured and his play fell off?

King87
01-06-2017, 01:22 PM
Everything you just laid out here sounds a LOT like Peyton Manning last year. :laugh:

Yeah...and if TS could read a defense and pull the magic trick like Manning did I'd probably be less salty about the guy.