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Denver Native (Carol)
12-28-2016, 12:21 PM
Minutes after the Broncos outlasted Carolina in February to win the Super Bowl, Denver coach Gary Kubiak ran into his boss, John Elway, for a hug and an impromptu evaluation.

“You can win it all kinds of ways, baby,” Kubiak said into Elway’s ear, with confetti raining down on the field. “You can win it all kinds of ways.”

The Broncos had just won a championship despite gaining only 194 yards of total offense in their 24-10 victory. They cobbled together just enough yards on the ground and in the air.

One year later, all those “ways” to win largely disappeared. The Broncos’ output from their passing game remains largely the same as a year ago. Their defense is still stout. But the biggest difference between an offense that finished 12-4 and went on a Super Bowl run and the offense that will miss the playoffs this season is a run game that bellyflopped.

AND


The Broncos, though, have not held a lead since Dec. 4. And in hindsight, their season turned in Week 7, when starting running back C.J. Anderson tore cartilage in his right knee, ending his season. With Anderson in the lineup, the Broncos went 5-2, averaging 111.6 rushing yards per game. Since then, they are 3-5 and averaging 70.0 rushing yards per game.

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/27/when-the-broncos-lost-the-ability-to-gain-rushing-yards-their-season-fell-apart/

IMO, losing CJ hurt the offense more than I thought it would.

Freyaka
12-28-2016, 12:39 PM
If you can't run the ball and can't protect your QB and everyone knows it...you are in deep trouble. Once you become that one dimensional, you aren't going to win a lot of games.

King87
12-28-2016, 12:44 PM
This a shining example as to how bad our coaching was this year. It's very easy to find RB's. Most teams have multiple running backs, or RBBC. We had one guy. A guy who has had injury issues before. We had other backs with talent, and got little out of them.

Freyaka
12-28-2016, 12:54 PM
This a shining example as to how bad our coaching was this year. It's very easy to find RB's. Most teams have multiple running backs, or RBBC. We had one guy. A guy who has had injury issues before. We had other backs with talent, and got little out of them.

Honestly I don't even know that our RB's are that bad. The problem they face is exactly the same as this entire team faces offensively. A massive lack of execution. WR, o-line, RB's, TE's, QB, they all are massively inconsistent and in many instances this all boils down to poor discipline and execution.

BigDaddyBronco
12-28-2016, 12:55 PM
This a shining example as to how bad our coaching was this year. It's very easy to find RB's. Most teams have multiple running backs, or RBBC. We had one guy. A guy who has had injury issues before. We had other backs with talent, and got little out of them.

Does Booker have any talent? He ran right into so many tackles it makes me think the vision isn't there. Maybe a bust of a draft pick. Bibbs looked somewhat better. Hillman looked better lat year. The front office needs to do better getting more talent.

King87
12-28-2016, 12:58 PM
Does Booker have any talent? He ran right into so many tackles it makes me think the vision isn't there. Maybe a bust of a draft pick. Bibbs looked somewhat better. Hillman looked better lat year. The front office needs to do better getting more talent.

He does have talent. His got decent draft grades coming out of college. He ran well against KC. We strangely went away from that.

Freyaka
12-28-2016, 12:59 PM
Does Booker have any talent? He ran right into so many tackles it makes me think the vision isn't there. Maybe a bust of a draft pick. Bibbs looked somewhat better. Hillman looked better lat year. The front office needs to do better getting more talent.

I think he does personally, like I said above. A lot of our issues are due to piss poor execution. That starts with proper coaching and our coaching staff couldn't coach themselves out of a paper bag offensively.

I know the typical defense of this kind of statement is "well they won a superbowl" Wade Phillips won a Superbowl. The offensive staff basically were just along for the ride.

King87
12-28-2016, 01:05 PM
I think he does personally, like I said above. A lot of our issues are due to piss poor execution. That starts with proper coaching and our coaching staff couldn't coach themselves out of a paper bag offensively.

I know the typical defense of this kind of statement is "well they won a superbowl" Wade Phillips won a Superbowl. The offensive staff basically were just along for the ride.

^^^^^ This shit right here.

Jsteve01
12-28-2016, 01:05 PM
Does Booker have any talent? He ran right into so many tackles it makes me think the vision isn't there. Maybe a bust of a draft pick. Bibbs looked somewhat better. Hillman looked better lat year. The front office needs to do better getting more talent.

I've never understood the lack of run that Bibbs gets. He'll have to scratch and claw to make the team again next year and he looked liked easily the better back between he and Booker when they both got carries. Booker has just gotten scared. I think he settles down and we see more consistent production. I didn't hear vision as being an issue in any of the scouting reports pre draft.

BigDaddyBronco
12-28-2016, 01:06 PM
He does have talent. His got decent draft grades coming out of college. He ran well against KC. We strangely went away from that.

He breaks out a 8 yard run and runs right into a tackle. He has done that and 1 or 2 yard runs all year. I think he might have had one run all year over 15 yards. I'll give him a pass since our line sucks so bad, but he hasn't wowed me.

King87
12-28-2016, 01:18 PM
He's got talent. Bibbs has talent. We should have gotten more out of them.

I Eat Staples
12-28-2016, 01:30 PM
Booker has talent, it looks like his vision is the problem. He ran exclusively out of the shotgun in college, he probably just needs time to adjust to a new system.

broncofaninfla
12-28-2016, 01:31 PM
Ether our OL sucks or our scheme sucks, I can't tell anymore. The end result is putrid though. My concern is Elway and company have shown they are pretty good at scouting talent in all areas EXCEPT OL. Also given Paridis's on going health issues we may need to get a center too.

Freyaka
12-28-2016, 01:32 PM
He breaks out a 8 yard run and runs right into a tackle. He has done that and 1 or 2 yard runs all year. I think he might have had one run all year over 15 yards. I'll give him a pass since our line sucks so bad, but he hasn't wowed me.

Yes, that is something a proper coaching staff could coach up. The issue is our coaching staff seems entirely incapable of addressing the flaws of any of our players. When it's 1-2 players you can say "hey... Those guys aren't putting the effort in" When it's the entire offense from top to bottom, it's coaching. If your team lacks execution on every single level you don't get to say the oft quoted defense of "the coaches can teach the players, but they can't make them execute it properly" if no one is executing properly, that's because the damn coaching staff hasn't done a good job of instilling proper execution. We aren't talking about not executing on advanced techniques either, it's simple freaking basic crap that every player should know.

Booker with the right coach and a better team around him would be fine, the talent is there, the execution is bollocks...

Denver Native (Carol)
12-28-2016, 01:50 PM
The loss of Anderson could have further ripple effects. As the Broncos’ starting running back, he has nearly doubled the number of snaps taken by any other back on the roster. He also provides another set of eyes for quarterback Trevor Siemian, helping to pick up blitzes by defenses at the line of scrimmage

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/10/28/cj-anderson-knee-injury-broncos/


But where Anderson could be most missed is in pass protection, and with pass rushers like San Diego's Joey Bosa and Oakland's Khalil Mack looming in the next two weeks, the Broncos could miss Anderson's ability to diagnose blitzes and stunts if he can't play.

"C.J. does a great job in protections; pass, pro, all of that stuff," quarterback Trevor Siemian said. "Between him, Matt (Paradis) and me, we try to be on the same page as best as we can."

http://www.upi.com/Sports_News/NFL/2016/10/27/Denver-Broncos-RB-CJ-Anderson-avoided-ACL-damage/9251477591608/

Cugel
12-28-2016, 02:13 PM
This a shining example as to how bad our coaching was this year. It's very easy to find RB's. Most teams have multiple running backs, or RBBC. We had one guy. A guy who has had injury issues before. We had other backs with talent, and got little out of them.

But how much talent did the other RBs really have? D. Booker was a 4th round pick that other teams didn't value much, K. Bibbs was a 7th rounder who is practice squad bait, and Jawan Thompson is the same. Outside of C.J. the Broncos don't have any good RBs who would even be able to make most NFL rosters.

This was proved conclusively when they went out and signed 31 year old Justin Forsett off the street in the middle of the season. Forsett bounded around the league for years with 6 different teams and now at 32, his career is probably done. Most RBs don't last 9 years in the NFL. He really doesn't have a lot left, but signing him was a vote of ZERO confidence that Bibbs, Booker and Thompson could do the job.

Bibbs and Thompson probably won't be on the Denver roster next season, since the team needs a serious upgrade at the RB position. Both are marginal players like you find hanging around every team in the NFL, trying to just make a roster.

NightTerror218
12-28-2016, 02:22 PM
I dont think there were a lot of tackles in back field. But def a lot fo 0-2 yards per rush. Cj has more pacients than booker. Booker ran into the back of our blockers a lot and DL were able to bully through to make tackle.

OL sucks but with a young RB who just wants to make plays it does not always work. All it takes is a second for a hole to open or close. Our OL is not good enough to make gaping holes or blow up the DL and man handle. The block and then move up field with this scheme and that never happened. Paradis was only OL i ever saw blocking downfield.

Cugel
12-28-2016, 02:25 PM
Paradis is probably the ONLY OL who deserves to keep his job, although several others of them will, because you can't just keep replacing everybody, every year. They replaced 4 of the 5 starters from 2015 and the line got worse this year.

King87
12-28-2016, 03:20 PM
But how much talent did the other RBs really have? D. Booker was a 4th round pick that other teams didn't value much, K. Bibbs was a 7th rounder who is practice squad bait, and Jawan Thompson is the same. Outside of C.J. the Broncos don't have any good RBs who would even be able to make most NFL rosters.

This was proved conclusively when they went out and signed 31 year old Justin Forsett off the street in the middle of the season. Forsett bounded around the league for years with 6 different teams and now at 32, his career is probably done. Most RBs don't last 9 years in the NFL. He really doesn't have a lot left, but signing him was a vote of ZERO confidence that Bibbs, Booker and Thompson could do the job.

Bibbs and Thompson probably won't be on the Denver roster next season, since the team needs a serious upgrade at the RB position. Both are marginal players like you find hanging around every team in the NFL, trying to just make a roster.

We live in a day and age where some of the best backs per class are taken in the second, third, fourth. Unless you're a mega talent you don't go in the first round. Even Bell was a second rounder. Then he turned into what he is now, but even he was a second rounder. It's not a premium position. But those guys are there. Forsett isn't a bad back. He's made some nice plays for us in pass blocking and running, and he just got here. It's actually a testament to how much talent in abundance there is at that position.

Also, if those guys aren't the guys, then Kubiak looks even sillier for cutting Hillman. I don't care that he hasn't caught on anywhere else; he was a good player for us. The coaching in particular has been awful for the most part at that position.

Actually, we haven't had any good offensive coaching. Kubiak is a leader of men. He was once an offensive guru. I don't think he is that anymore.

Cugel
12-29-2016, 11:25 AM
Von Kinger - Nobody thinks you can't find RB talent in the 2nd, 3rd or even 4th round, but Denver has not shown any tendency to be able to spot it either in the draft of FA. Bell was a bust as a second rounder, and the others are scrubs who would struggle to make any other NFL roster. I didn't agree with cutting Ronnie Hillman either, but the fact that no other team wanted him is proof enough that he was nothing special. He was a change-of-pace back, nothing more.

Given the complete lack of talent outside of C.J. he would no doubt have been useful. He could hardly have done worse than Booker. But, he's certainly not any kind of answer.

As for Kubiak, he's not either the OC or OL coach and he can't take the time to hand-hold those units, he has to rely on the coaches he's hired. And those guys haven't been doing their jobs.

The question now is whether he's capable of getting rid of dead wood, even if that means parting ways with his long time friend Rick Dennison, who he's hired everywhere he's gone. If he makes excuses for him, and tries to blame others, then Elway needs to step in and insist on accountability for failure.

NFL coaching is not like corporate America where top executives can fail upward, like Carly Fiorina who ran Hewlett-Packard into the ground, fired a boat load of people and then sailed away with a ginormus golden parachute. There is no way to sugar coat losing football games. You either win or lose. It's easy to see whether coaches are doing their jobs or not because it's displayed for all the world on Sundays. There's your unit scoring 10, 3 and 10 points the last 3 games.

King87
12-29-2016, 01:27 PM
Von Kinger - Nobody thinks you can't find RB talent in the 2nd, 3rd or even 4th round, but Denver has not shown any tendency to be able to spot it either in the draft of FA. Bell was a bust as a second rounder, and the others are scrubs who would struggle to make any other NFL roster. I didn't agree with cutting Ronnie Hillman either, but the fact that no other team wanted him is proof enough that he was nothing special. He was a change-of-pace back, nothing more.

Given the complete lack of talent outside of C.J. he would no doubt have been useful. He could hardly have done worse than Booker. But, he's certainly not any kind of answer.

As for Kubiak, he's not either the OC or OL coach and he can't take the time to hand-hold those units, he has to rely on the coaches he's hired. And those guys haven't been doing their jobs.

The question now is whether he's capable of getting rid of dead wood, even if that means parting ways with his long time friend Rick Dennison, who he's hired everywhere he's gone. If he makes excuses for him, and tries to blame others, then Elway needs to step in and insist on accountability for failure.

NFL coaching is not like corporate America where top executives can fail upward, like Carly Fiorina who ran Hewlett-Packard into the ground, fired a boat load of people and then sailed away with a ginormus golden parachute. There is no way to sugar coat losing football games. You either win or lose. It's easy to see whether coaches are doing their jobs or not because it's displayed for all the world on Sundays. There's your unit scoring 10, 3 and 10 points the last 3 games.

I'm talking LeVeon Bell. CJA was running at 4.0 YPC on THIS line. That makes him a style god. He's very good in pass pro and as a pass catcher. If the guy could stay healthy, that's a top ten RB on our hands. But he can't stay healthy. So why we carry 18 WR's and less RB's boggles my mind. Why our other backs are quasi-helpless little children in the woods boggles my mind. Why we cut Ronnie Hillman when he's been a fine pairing with CJA boggles my mind.

It's shit!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-29-2016, 02:02 PM
I'm talking LeVeon Bell. CJA was running at 4.0 YPC on THIS line. That makes him a style god. He's very good in pass pro and as a pass catcher. If the guy could stay healthy, that's a top ten RB on our hands. But he can't stay healthy. So why we carry 18 WR's and less RB's boggles my mind. Why our other backs are quasi-helpless little children in the woods boggles my mind. Why we cut Ronnie Hillman when he's been a fine pairing with CJA boggles my mind.

It's shit!

Ronnie was no good on third down. That's why he was expendable

dogfish
12-29-2016, 03:38 PM
Also, if those guys aren't the guys, then Kubiak looks even sillier for cutting Hillman.


lol! i love how you now blame kubes for all bad personnel moves on offense, as though john has just been sitting there picking his ass, letting GK have full and final say. . . :lol: john still gets credit for drafting the guys on defense, though, right?

shit. . . everyone knows GK did a crap job this year. . . but studesville has done a shit job of developing backs for years before gary showed up-- let's give him his fair share of the blame as well. . . also, gary's not the guy who scouts the league for vet talent-- that would be director of pro personnel tom heckert. . . if you want to complain that they didn't find a better vet back during the season, he's your guy. . . the FO is in charge of acquiring talent, and you know gary isn't a bill parcells or mike shanahan type who runs the whole show. . . there's one boss in dove valley, we all know who it is. . . gary has MORE than enough to answer for with his shitty coaching. . . it's ridiculous to pile blame for other people's mistakes on him as well. . .



I'm talking LeVeon Bell. CJA was running at 4.0 YPC on THIS line. That makes him a style god. He's very good in pass pro and as a pass catcher. If the guy could stay healthy, that's a top ten RB on our hands. But he can't stay healthy. So why we carry 18 WR's and less RB's boggles my mind. Why our other backs are quasi-helpless little children in the woods boggles my mind. Why we cut Ronnie Hillman when he's been a fine pairing with CJA boggles my mind.

It's shit!

i do agree with all of this, aside from your characterization of hillman as a competent back. . . :D but yes, it does suck that we didn't have more talent available there. . . of course, if we had some TEs that could actually block, we wouldn't have to waste a roster spot on a backup fullback. . . juwan seems like a nice kid, but he's basically useless. . .

King87
12-29-2016, 03:46 PM
lol! i love how you now blame kubes for all bad personnel moves on offense, as though john has just been sitting there picking his ass, letting GK have full and final say. . . :lol: john still gets credit for drafting the guys on defense, though, right?

shit. . . everyone knows GK did a crap job this year. . . but studesville has done a shit job of developing backs for years before gary showed up-- let's give him his fair share of the blame as well. . . also, gary's not the guy who scouts the league for vet talent-- that would be director of pro personnel tom heckert. . . if you want to complain that they didn't find a better vet back during the season, he's your guy. . . the FO is in charge of acquiring talent, and you know gary isn't a bill parcells or mike shanahan type who runs the whole show. . . there's one boss in dove valley, we all know who it is. . . gary has MORE than enough to answer for with his shitty coaching. . . it's ridiculous to pile blame for other people's mistakes on him as well. . .




i do agree with all of this, aside from your characterization of hillman as a competent back. . . :D but yes, it does suck that we didn't have more talent available there. . . of course, if we had some TEs that could actually block, we wouldn't have to waste a roster spot on a backup fullback. . . juwan seems like a nice kid, but he's basically useless. . .

I blame him for cutting the wrong guys and carrying a ton of WR's when we don't need to. That's what the coach does. That's in his power. Meanwhile, yeah Elway gets credit for the defense, but he also resigned CJA. He went out and got two new offensive lineman. He resigned DT, signed ES. And he hired as HC who once had the reptuation for fixing offenses, and if memory serves the Kubiakites kept telling me how we were going to get a running game with him. Well, we have a running game when CJ is here, but I'll be damned if that is somehow a Kubaik thing.

His coaches suck at coaching. He has sucked at coaching from a technical standpoint. So no, I'm not piling on. I'm pointing out issues. You big bully!

dogfish
12-29-2016, 04:00 PM
I blame him for cutting the wrong guys and carrying a ton of WR's when we don't need to. That's what the coach does. That's in his power. Meanwhile, yeah Elway gets credit for the defense, but he also resigned CJA.

wait, wait. . . so gary made the decision to cut hillman, but john made the decision on CJ?

proof, please. . .

King87
12-29-2016, 04:02 PM
The head coach typically makes the cuts on the roster, Dogfish. This is common knowledge and common procedure.

As far as CJ, who was the person who signed CJ?

Shazam!
12-29-2016, 04:02 PM
Without blocking up front, I don't care who's back there, it ain't gonna be pretty.

King87
12-29-2016, 04:05 PM
Well, with one back we were still hitting 4.0 YPC.

dogfish
12-29-2016, 05:00 PM
The head coach typically makes the cuts on the roster, Dogfish. This is common knowledge and common procedure.


it is? i've never heard that or read that anywhere. . . as far as i know, the front office and entire coaching staff work on it together, rather than the HC flying solo. . . you have proof that's how it's done?

also, john signed both bibbs and thompson as UDFAs the year before kubes came to denver. . . but i presume you have a way to blame gary for them as well?

King87
12-29-2016, 05:08 PM
it is? i've never heard that or read that anywhere. . . as far as i know, the front office and entire coaching staff work on it together, rather than the HC flying solo. . . you have proof that's how it's done?

also, john signed both bibbs and thompson as UDFAs the year before kubes came to denver. . . but i presume you have a way to blame gary for them as well?

What on earth are you talking about? Bibbs has talent. That's my point, Dog. We have talented backs on the roster, maybe not world beaters, but guys who should be able to give us production. They haven't with Kubiak. I'v even said that I've also found it frustrating that we don't have a second back who is pretty good on talent. In a world where Bell, Gio, Lacy -he did use to be good at this game but then fell off- are second and third rounders there should be more talent than that on the roster. With that being said, what we have we should be getting more out of.

As far as roster control, I have never heard of a team, sans Dallas, where the GM controls who makes the team. Elway gave the young man a new contract. He got cut. That should imply something at the very least.

Cugel
12-31-2016, 06:39 AM
I'm talking LeVeon Bell. CJA was running at 4.0 YPC on THIS line. That makes him a style god. He's very good in pass pro and as a pass catcher. If the guy could stay healthy, that's a top ten RB on our hands. But he can't stay healthy. So why we carry 18 WR's and less RB's boggles my mind. Why our other backs are quasi-helpless little children in the woods boggles my mind. Why we cut Ronnie Hillman when he's been a fine pairing with CJA boggles my mind.

It's shit!

That was hilarious. It's true. Nobody can figure out why they have 1500 WRs on the team who they never throw to and no decent RBs except C.J. As for Hillman, he's change of pace back. They are a dime a dozen in the NFL. The fact that nobody wants him is indication that he's not particularly great either. NFL GMs will not pass up talent who might come in and help them. And Hillman has no character concerns I'm aware of. Just mediocre talent.

AS for Bibbs and Thompson, neither of those guys would be expected to be any good, given where they were drafted, and they haven't shown anything so far. 7th round guys are not usually starters in this league. Can happen of course, but if they were expected to be any good they'd have gone higher.

Obviously, better coaching would help the OL.

BroncoWave
12-31-2016, 12:05 PM
Real Talk: Hillman was better last season than any of our backs were this season.

Northman
12-31-2016, 12:09 PM
Real Talk: Hillman was better last season than any of our backs were this season.

Still makes you wonder though why Denver didnt keep him or that Minny didnt want him anymore. There just has to be something else going on there for him not to be valued more than he is across the league.

Hawgdriver
12-31-2016, 12:39 PM
Hillman had maturity issues.