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View Full Version : I wonder if there will be ANY changes in the coaching staff for next year.



Broncoknight30
12-25-2016, 09:15 AM
I see there is shared play calling between Knapp and Dennsion and Kubiak. Is that weird? I am not saying Kubiak needs to go, but I think changes NEED to be made. Whatever they have been doing FOR TWO YEARS has not been working. Not at all, with the exception of a small handful of games.

Yes, I do certainly think the OL needs to be upgraded, but let us go away from that obvious problem for a moment.

Is it me, or have they not made ANY sort of adjustment based on the lack of ability of the OL to run the offense they want to run? At what point do they have to do something else that fits the talent? I know that sounds ridiculous, but didnt we all witness that with McCoy and Tebow in 2011? They basically scrapped the whole play book and made something that fit Tebow. I know, Tebow is a bad name to bring up, but it does illustrate my point.

I am honestly wondering how much of the problem is talent on the line and how much of it is coaching (play calling.) How frustrated have we been (for two years now) watching this offense just spin its wheels?

Freyaka
12-25-2016, 03:19 PM
I hope we at least change OC and o-line coach. You don't even really need to fire them. Move Barone back to TE's and Dennison to o-line and then get a real OC.

King87
12-25-2016, 03:34 PM
I hope we at least change OC and o-line coach. You don't even really need to fire them. Move Barone back to TE's and Dennison to o-line and then get a real OC.

Are you opposed to them being fired? I'm not calling for them to be fired, I'm just curious.

Freyaka
12-25-2016, 06:48 PM
Are you opposed to them being fired? I'm not calling for them to be fired, I'm just curious.

Truthfully, I'd prefer they were, but, I know that Kubiak is....overly loyal. Neither are bad coaches, but neither belong in their current positions. They are much better coaching what the know well.

King87
12-25-2016, 06:50 PM
Truthfully, I'd prefer they were, but, I know that Kubiak is....overly loyal. Neither are bad coaches, but neither belong in their current positions. They are much better coaching what the know well.

I like you. You can stay.

#buddingfriendship
#freyakafriend
#hashtag

Joel
12-26-2016, 12:45 AM
Whatever they have been doing FOR TWO YEARS has not been working. Not at all, with the exception of a small handful of games.
It's been FAR longer than TWO YEARS, else Fox would still be here. It's not Kubiaks (nor Foxs, nor even Barones) fault Elway remains convinced elite linemen remain available in the 3rd and 4th rounds despite major sports publications running articles about how far offensive line play has fallen off GENERALLY in the modern NFL.

I hope we at least change OC and o-line coach. You don't even really need to fire them. Move Barone back to TE's and Dennison to o-line and then get a real OC.The above notwithstanding (and once again) WE ALREADY DID THAT: Barone graduated from crappy line coach to crappy TE coach before returning to crappy line coach. Kubiak was a fine playcaller and Dennison a fine OC for highly productive well-balanced Broncos, Texans and Ravens offenses while Barones Denver TEs and offensive linemen were struggling to crack 20 pts/gm: THEY aren't the problem.

Sadly—and however much some posters like to ignore it—we ALL know who hires coaches, makes draft picks, signs FAs and releases starters (hint: NOT Gary Kubiak, Rick Dennison nor even Clancy Barone; sure, they all have "input" but THE "decider" is precisely that.)

Joel
12-26-2016, 12:50 AM
At least we get a top 20 pick, and with a likely 3rd round comp pick for Oz we can probably parlay that into a top 10. I look forward to seeing whom we use it on to be our 5th All Pro OLB/CB next year while we draft another 3rd round starting OT and a pair of guys NO ONE ELSE WANTS to fill out the rest of our starting line.

Most impressive thing about how Kubiak's destroyed our offense since he took over in 2015? "He's" been doing it to us since (at least) 2010. ;)

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-26-2016, 12:55 AM
Elway is not Kubiak, and judging by the look on Elway's face tonight it's safe to assume heads will roll.

This was not "kicking and screaming"

7DnBrnc53
12-26-2016, 01:03 AM
Elway remains convinced elite linemen remain available in the 3rd and 4th rounds despite major sports publications running articles about how far offensive line play has fallen off GENERALLY in the modern NFL

His ignorance of O-line talent has finally caught up with him now that Denver has missed the playoffs. He has passed up some decent to good O-linemen up the past four years:

Cordy Glenn
Gabe Jackson
Ali Marpet
Shaq Mason

Instead of those guys, here are some of the people John has taken:

Philip Blake
Vinston Painter
Michael Schofield
Ty Sambrailo

Not a pretty picture.

Also, it's possible that he hung on to Oz as the potential "QB of the future" for too long. He probably should have been looking at someone like Carr or Jimmy G. as a serious replacement by 2014. Or, after drafting Ray, Marpet, and Mason in the first three rounds in 2015, Elway should have taken QB Brett Hundley in Round 4. He is more promising than Siemian, and even maybe Lynch.

Joel
12-26-2016, 01:11 AM
Elway is not Kubiak, and judging by the look on Elway's face tonight it's safe to assume heads will roll.

This was not "kicking and screaming"
Yeah: All the players Elway hired to replace the previous failed starters he signed/drafted. He's not gonna fire the guy who actually DOES the drafting and FA signing, because guess who that is. I still think it's a combination of that and Barone, but he's lasted through THREE Denver coaches AND as many GMs, despite consistently underperforming TEs/linemen, so appears to know far more about how to keep his job than DO it.

Jaded
12-26-2016, 01:12 AM
If they were fired I don't think there's one position coach on this offense that could feel confident about finding another job after this season.

After a while Wade Phillips came to the obvious conclusion that he's just not a HC, if at this point Dennison and Barone haven't taken inventory and come to the conclusion that they're just not cut out for their current positions then they're obscenely stupid. I've been willing to give Dennison the benefit of the doubt because the OL is so ****ing impotent but the whole "Co-coordinator" thing never works and Dennison's "half" of the puzzle is where they're most inept.

Jaded
12-26-2016, 01:15 AM
Yeah: All the players Elway hired to replace the previous failed starters he signed/drafted. He's not gonna fire the guy who actually DOES the drafting and FA signing, because guess who that is. I still think it's a combination of that and Barone, but he's lasted through THREE Denver coaches AND as many GMs, despite consistently underperforming TEs/linemen, so appears to know far more about how to keep his job than DO it.

Kubiak and position coaches are involved in the selection process.

Jaded
12-26-2016, 01:17 AM
His ignorance of O-line talent has finally caught up with him now that Denver has missed the playoffs. He has passed up some decent to good O-linemen up the past four years:

Cordy Glenn
Gabe Jackson
Ali Marpet
Shaq Mason

Instead of those guys, here are some of the people John has taken:

Philip Blake
Vinston Painter
Michael Schofield
Ty Sambrailo

Not a pretty picture.

Also, it's possible that he hung on to Oz as the potential "QB of the future" for too long. He probably should have been looking at someone like Carr or Jimmy G. as a serious replacement by 2014. Or, after drafting Ray, Marpet, and Mason in the first three rounds in 2015, Elway should have taken QB Brett Hundley in Round 4. He is more promising than Siemian, and even maybe Lynch.
Dude, **** Marpet and Mason, the Broncos have better prospects.

slim
12-26-2016, 01:23 AM
Hes won the division 5 times wit two super bowl runs.

Take your amateur talent evulations and shove them up your gigantic colon

Joel
12-26-2016, 01:25 AM
His ignorance of O-line talent has finally caught up with him now that Denver has missed the playoffs. He has passed up some decent to good O-linemen up the past four years:

Cordy Glenn
Gabe Jackson
Ali Marpet
Shaq Mason

Only ONE of those guys is an OT, but heres where each was drafted: 41st overall (the lone OT, Glenn,) 81st overall, 61st overall, 131st overall.


Instead of those guys, here are some of the people John has taken:

Philip Blake
Vinston Painter
Michael Schofield
Ty Sambrailo

Only one of THOSE guys is a G, but here's where each of THEM was drafted: 108th overall (the lone G,) 173rd overall, 95th overall, 59th overall.

So Elways talent Evaluation is IRRELEVANT: He "couldn't" have drafted ANY of the first four since his POSITION valuation had already spent those picks on positions he prioritized higher. That's why we have Shaq Barrett and Shane Ray to take over when Von or Ware need a rest, and Roby and Webster when Talib's in street clothes because he injured himself accidentally or an opponent intentionally, but have NO starting linemen worthy of the name. Sambrailo was the ONLY 2nd round pick we spent on a lineman, and even that was the year after we made the SB (i.e. he was the PENULTIMATE 2nd round pick, just TWO spots above the top 3rd round pick.) Elway won't lop off the head that made all THOSE calls, because it—like the consequences of those calls—rests squarely on his own shoulders.

Joel
12-26-2016, 01:30 AM
Kubiak and position coaches are involved in the selection process.
Sure; the Joint Chiefs are "involved" in selecting which targets we bomb, but guess who actually DECIDES. That's why the guy who ordered the Army to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki had a sign on his desk that said, "The buck stops here." The HIGHEST pick Elway spent on a lineman yielded the BEST lineman he drafted: Orlando Franklin, back when Kubiak, Dennison and Wade were leading Houston to its first playoff berth. Let's give both credit AND blame where due.

Joel
12-26-2016, 01:48 AM
moderated.
No. If everyone else can rant about how this or that coach we hired last year caused (or at least failed to correct) a problem we've had at least SIX years, I'm at least as entitled to redirect that frustrated outrage to someone who's been back in Denver MUCH longer with FAR MORE authority.

King87
12-26-2016, 01:54 AM
The line wasn't bad for the early years of Manning. One of the solutions to the bad line was to bring in Kubiak. We signed two former starters from teams to help the line, via the best GM in the game, and the coaches under Kubiak couldn't do shit with them. You don't want to put any blame on Kubiak ever. You wanted them to eschew PFM for offensive lineman....there is some irony in that.

Joel
12-26-2016, 02:14 AM
The line wasn't bad for the early years of Manning.
Yeah, it was, but Manning was still young enough his quick reads and release could usually mask the horror that was our line—until the GREATEST PASSING SEASON IN HISTORY ended in a Super Blowout where 6 guys couldn't block 4, so the GoAT ran for his life for 60:00, couldn't get a FIRST DOWN till the MIDDLE OF THE SECOND QUARTER and couldn't SCORE till the START of the FINAL quarter. OUR OPENING SNAP WAS A SAFETY, for Petes sake!


One of the solutions to the bad line was to bring in Kubiak.
No, it wasn't: Kubiak's NEVER BEEN A LINE COACH IN HIS LIFE. He was brought in to be a HC, OC and tutor Oz and RBs, all of which his experience as a RB coach, QB coach, OC and HC amply qualified him to do.


We signed two former starters from teams to help the line, via the best GM in the game, and the coaches under Kubiak couldn't do shit with them.
We signed two All Pros, via the WORST line GM in the game, and the coaches under FOX couldn't do shit with them: Else there'd have been no reason to FIX that shit by hiring Kubiak AND DENNISON (who actually HAS been a line coach, for good offenses, several times.) Trouble is, the guy who drafts OTs in the 50s, Gs in the 90s and signs FORMER All Pros way past their prime is still doing that, and the crappy offensive line coach under McDumbass and Fox is now the crappy offensive line coach under Kubiak and Dennison. Neither Kubiak NOR Dennison have ANY control over EITHER of those GLARING AND PERSISTENT flaws.



You don't want to put any blame on Kubiak ever.
I put blame on Kubiak for the insane 62 yd FG try the last time we played KC, and I'll put more on him for having the kicker try to run for 10 yds on 4th down tonight. I give him blame he EARNS—but NO MORE. The ONLY thing you give him "credit" for is not getting in Wades way (too much...) last year. There's a personal bias here, but not mine; that much is clear from my past and present criticism of him when he earned it and your inability to give him ANY praise, whether or not deserved.

You wanted them to eschew PFM for offensive lineman....there is some irony in that.
Not a bit: I didn't want to see an aging QB with a surgically repaired spine murdered behind Swiss cheese protection with no run support—which is pretty much all any of us DID see from SB XLVIII to SB 50. I don't want to see a talented young QB physically and pyschologically crippled the same way.

King87
12-26-2016, 02:20 AM
Sigh. I'm done wasting my time. Kubiak was hired to fix something he's failed to fix for two years.

Joel
12-26-2016, 02:59 AM
Sigh. I'm done wasting my time. Kubiak was hired to fix something he's failed to fix for two years.
Kubiak was hired to SOLVE a problem he CAUSED; got it. Thus it's his fault we're still making the same poor player and position coaching mistakes that ACTUALLY caused a problem so bad we had to hire him AND DENNISON to fix it.

Joel
12-26-2016, 03:03 AM
People keep saying the cap and FA won't let teams be great everywhere, so we can't break the bank on linemen and that's OK because it's made us contenders. Well, OK: WE'VE got a pair of elite CBs, a pair of elite safeties, 3-4 elite OLBs, had a pair of elite ILBs until this year, a pair of elite DEs, a solid NT, a pair of elite WRs, solid RBs and, again until this year, a HoF QB—how much of "everywhere" is left to neglect to enable all that?

Not sure what the answer is, only that it's Kubiak and Dennisons fault—even though it's been like that since (at least) THREE YEARS before we hired them (else we WOULDN'T have hired them.) Somewhere the guy who's been coaching our crap lines and TEs for SEVEN YEARS is laughing all the way to the bank.

King87
12-26-2016, 03:11 AM
Kubiak was hired to SOLVE a problem he CAUSED; got it. Thus it's his fault we're still making the same poor player and position coaching mistakes that ACTUALLY caused a problem so bad we had to hire him AND DENNISON to fix it.

Kubiak was hired to be an offensive guru, especially with the crappy line. We were wooed and awed and told how he was going to coach up the line and craft a dominant line. To lighten the load on PFM.


The line still sucks. The running game is only decent if CJA is in there. Which actually bothers me even more because what ******* offensive guru only have one actual RB?

If you pass the buck to Elway at least he can say he built the god defense. Again, I just wanted to make this clear to you one final time.

Joel
12-26-2016, 03:57 AM
Kubiak was hired to be an offensive guru, especially with the crappy line. We were wooed and awed and told how he was going to coach up the line and craft a dominant line. To lighten the load on PFM.
He DID lighten the load on Manning, DESPITE the line, but anyone who expected Kubiak to personally improve the line should've checked his resume: King alluded to Kubiaks "area of expertise," and that's QBs and RBs, NOT offensive linemen. He got a 5-2 record out of a career benchwarmer, beating the top two AFC favorites, winning a SB and earning the aforementioned benchwarmer a FAR more lucrative contract than he'll EVER deserve. He's taken a 7th round sophomore who'd never had an NFL SNAP 4 months ago to an 7-5 record and an 88 passer rating. He's managed to maintain a semi-decent run game despite the walking wounded to which our line has annually reduced CJ. But he's not a line coach and never was; whose fault is that?


The line still sucks. The running game is only decent if CJA is in there. Which actually bothers me even more because what ******* offensive guru only have one actual RB?
Well, none of our RBs can stay healthy, for SOME reason. Booker's a rookie who only took over the starting duties when CJ got hurt, and Forsett was only brought into replace him, what, three weeks ago? The starters on IR, so's the FB, and so's the backup FB/#4HB. If your argument is "Kubiak sucks because Bibbs sucks" I can only say, "Hey, the man can't make EVERY UDFA an All Pro; there's a reason 32 teams rejected the guy 7 times."


If you pass the buck to Elway at least he can say he built the god defense. Again, I just wanted to make this clear to you one final time.
Sure, fine, but that cuts both ways: When we say the cap and FA force tradeoffs and we want a team STACKED at ALL defensive positions PLUS two top WRs, a top QB, top RBs, well, there's only so much cash and so many 1st and 2nd round picks. At the risk of stating the obvious, the reason Elway's only spent a total of TWO out of a DOZEN 1st/2nd round picks on linemen is that he spent them elsewhere. If you're fine with that, don't complain a line made out of leftovers is just that.

7DnBrnc53
12-26-2016, 07:29 AM
Dude, **** Marpet and Mason, the Broncos have better prospects.

Who, Sambrailo and Schofield? I don't think so. I wasn't a fan of those picks when they happened. Someone who played with Schofield at Michigan said something along the lines of how Schofield is a nice guy, but a terrible player. And, Ty had no strength coming out.

Broncoknight30
12-26-2016, 09:18 AM
Ironically, Elway's offensive picks have been by and large busts. I think it is a fallacy that just because a former player "played offense" in their careers, makes them automatic experts at evaluating talent. Especially at the position they played.

Look, Elway is having an epic career as a GM. Delivered a championship, 5 straight division championships, 2 SB appearances. Got Manning to come here when so many teams desperately wanted him. Put together one the top defenses ever etc etc etc.

Having said all of that, he of course is not above criticism. He has had some hits on offense like signing Sanders, and CJ Anderson. However, he has been far less successful with that aide of the ball. I mentioned it before and it may very well be unfair, but this is how drafting IS JUDGED, unfair or not.

It is hard to dismiss that he passed on Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins for Osweiler. It is just that simple. He did that, and that turned out to be a bad decision. Now this year he traded up to get Lynch. Not saying he is a bust yet, but as of now he will be judged on the fact that he drafted Lynch over Prescott. Unfair, maybe. Then again maybe not.

I still trust his judgement. I will take the good with the bad. The good, has been great. My friends are Bengals fans and Bills fans. Trust me, we have it good.

This is the first "true failure" of the franchise under Elway as GM. I am confident in what they will do for next year. Admittedly my confidence is a little shaken by this abortion of a season and totally inept offensive production.

atwater27
12-26-2016, 09:34 AM
This season we were reminded just how much better Peyton was than we thought he was, how savage free agency can be to a Super Bowl team, and and just how ineffective today's Kubiak offense is. The best thing Denver could do in the offseason is to change the offense/ playcalling, (however necessary, firing or forced changes) and rebuilding our lily livered trenches on both offensive and defensive line. Getting very sick of watching the Walrus outcoach us BADLY.

Mike
12-26-2016, 09:58 AM
Kubiak's team quit on him last night. I'd tell him that he needs to retire for medical reasons and fire the "OC", QB coach, OL coach, and WR coach. Worst offense I have ever seen.

Cugel
12-26-2016, 10:28 AM
Only ONE of those guys is an OT, but heres where each was drafted: 41st overall (the lone OT, Glenn,) 81st overall, 61st overall, 131st overall.

Only one of THOSE guys is a G, but here's where each of THEM was drafted: 108th overall (the lone G,) 173rd overall, 95th overall, 59th overall.

So Elways talent Evaluation is IRRELEVANT: He "couldn't" have drafted ANY of the first four since his POSITION valuation had already spent those picks on positions he prioritized higher. That's why we have Shaq Barrett and Shane Ray to take over when Von or Ware need a rest, and Roby and Webster when Talib's in street clothes because he injured himself accidentally or an opponent intentionally, but have NO starting linemen worthy of the name. Sambrailo was the ONLY 2nd round pick we spent on a lineman, and even that was the year after we made the SB (i.e. he was the PENULTIMATE 2nd round pick, just TWO spots above the top 3rd round pick.) Elway won't lop off the head that made all THOSE calls, because it—like the consequences of those calls—rests squarely on his own shoulders.

You're on to something here Joel. Elway sat watching the Broncos get crushed by Seattle in the SB and decided that he wanted to emulate the Seahawks. Well, he did. He built a towering, dominating, crushing defense.

All the efforts were on defense. Most of the high draft picks were on defense. The offense had to get by with late round draft picks and FAs.

Well Seattle has struggled with their OL because they cut their costs to the bone in order to be able to afford to re sign defensive veterans like Earl Thomas, Richard Sherman, Bobby Wagner, Cliff Avril, etc., etc. They even traded Pro-Bowl Center Max Unger for TE Jimmy Graham.

So, Denver followed that model - both the good and the bad. Keep the defense together. Cost cutting on the offense.

Meanwhile Elway and Co, insisted that they didn't need to invest resources into the Offense, and especially the OL:

"Mark Schlereth - "What was that proposed trade? Hall of Fame LT Joe Thomas in exchange for Shaquil Barrett and the 1st round pick which turned out to be Paxton Lynch. That looks like the trade that got away. How good would the Broncos look right now if they had Joe Thomas at LT and 4th round pick Dak Prescott."

Key to the Seahawks model was paying Russell Wilson less than $1M for 4 years instead of $20M and using the money on defense. The Broncos cut Peyton's salary down to $15M a year. Now they are paying Lynch + Siemian combined about $1.5M.

Yes, they can draft OL in the first and second round but those players will take a couple years to develop.

I think that we need to understand that there are trade offs. Having a great defense but a bargain basement offense is going to continue. This draft is a below average one for OL. There might not even be a great LT prospect in the draft.

Reality 101: Not much help is coming for the Broncos OL. It's going to take years.

And meanwhile it's obvious that the defensive line is needing shoring up too. They never were able to compensate for the loss of Malik Jackson.

They need different personnel on the OL. They replaced 4/5 of the OL and look how that worked out. You could replace the OL coach. But, Kubiak might walk if Elway tries to replace his coaches and Elway is loyal to Kubiak.



And there's just no evidence that model can work unless you have an elite QB like Peyton, who, even when he was injured and ineffective last year, was an unquestioned leader on the offense, and who always got the team in the right play. Since his rookie contract ran out and the Seahawks had to pay Russell Wilson $22M a year instead of $1M the Seahawks have struggled.

The Patriots might win 4 games without Tom Brady, but when he retires they'll struggle to win SBs.

Cugel
12-26-2016, 10:34 AM
Kubiak's team quit on him last night. I'd tell him that he needs to retire for medical reasons and fire the "OC", QB coach, OL coach, and WR coach. Worst offense I have ever seen.

I think there were defensive shortcomings covering the run that teams have exposed. They need a new DT/DE.

Kubiak isn't going anywhere and they are going to need some new personnel on offense.

Jaded
12-26-2016, 11:10 AM
Who, Sambrailo and Schofield? I don't think so. I wasn't a fan of those picks when they happened. Someone who played with Schofield at Michigan said something along the lines of how Schofield is a nice guy, but a terrible player. And, Ty had no strength coming out.

Mason is a 6-0 G from a triple option college offense that was getting abused before Scharneccia was brought out of retirement. Marpet is an overhyped small college G that can run fast. Both have been developed better/faster than anymore on Broncos OL. That doesn't make them a better prospect.

I never said they were John Hannah, I said they were better prospects. Billy Turner goes on that list too, they were all drafted to play the harder T position. Schofield might be the most gifted athlete among them all. The failure has been in their development.

Who is Mason and Marpet? They sure AF ain't John Hannah either.

7DnBrnc53
12-26-2016, 02:50 PM
Mason is a 6-0 G from a triple option college offense that was getting abused before Scharneccia was brought out of retirement. Marpet is an overhyped small college G that can run fast. Both have been developed better/faster than anymore on Broncos OL. That doesn't make them a better prospect.

I never said they were John Hannah, I said they were better prospects. Billy Turner goes on that list too, they were all drafted to play the harder T position. Schofield might be the most gifted athlete among them all. The failure has been in their development.

Who is Mason and Marpet? They sure AF ain't John Hannah either.

I just said what a Michigan teammate said about Schofield. Also, Sambrailo came out of college extremely weak. Maybe those others weren't great prospects, but you can't tell me that Scho and Sam were better coming out, no matter what the grades.


I think that we need to understand that there are trade offs. Having a great defense but a bargain basement offense is going to continue. This draft is a below average one for OL. There might not even be a great LT prospect in the draft.

Reality 101: Not much help is coming for the Broncos OL. It's going to take years.

Signing Whitworth and drafting Notre Dame G Quentin Nelson in Round 1 can make it better (as well as getting rid of Stephenson and moving Okung to RT with a restructured contract). It isn't ideal, sure, but it would be better than this year's line. You keep three starters from last year, move one to a new position, and you only add two new starters.

They have to do something like that (as well as taking the play call sheet from Kubes) because you can't afford to have another bargain basement offensive year where they miss the playoffs. If you do, that D may start to disappear because players won't want to stay here.


The Patriots might win 4 games without Tom Brady, but when he retires they'll struggle to win SBs.

That depends if Belichick (and Ernie Adams, his right-hand man) retire with Tom. If they don't, the Pats will be fine. Tom has never been as good as everyone thinks he is, and Jimmy G is no slouch.

Nomad
12-26-2016, 03:22 PM
I read on another site, Sandy Clough is stating, Wade Phillips is contemplating retirement. Any of you Denver residents heard this?

Freyaka
12-26-2016, 03:36 PM
http://milehighsports.com/report-john-elway-plans-make-changes-coaching-staff-personnel-department/

Yes there is going to be changes.


And according to Klis, Broncos Country should expect to see some changes, not just to the “players on the roster, but within the coaching staff and personal department as well.”

Elway expects the best, and that means a Super Bowl championship. When that doesn’t happen, he makes moves.

King87
12-26-2016, 03:40 PM
http://milehighsports.com/report-john-elway-plans-make-changes-coaching-staff-personnel-department/

Yes there is going to be changes.

Good. We need an actual playcaller. Kubiak ain't it.

We need an actual OL coach.

We need a better TE coach. There's a swap from OL to TE coach that has been mentioned a lot.

Freyaka
12-26-2016, 03:50 PM
Good. We need an actual playcaller. Kubiak ain't it.

We need an actual OL coach.

We need a better TE coach. There's a swap from OL to TE coach that has been mentioned a lot.

Elway looked absolutely pissed last night...It wouldn't even shock me to see Kubes gone (though I find that unlikely)

DenBronx
12-26-2016, 03:54 PM
Now that this season is pretty much over. I want to go on record and say how much I haaaaaate Kubiaks offense. It is terrible! We are basically the Texans recreated but he is lucky enough to have Wade Phillips, our defense and Elway running the show.

I liked our offense from 3 years ago. Had we kept that style with this defense this team would have scored way more points. And yes, an actual play caller is needed. Kubiak is a good HC but I don't want him involved in playcalling.

Who is an aggressive OC out there that can get this show rolling? Kyle Shanahan? Who else?

Valar Morghulis
12-26-2016, 03:56 PM
I'm kinda in love with the idea of Kyle shannahan as OC and assistant head coach.

In two years or less, kubes moves upstairs into some other job and Kyle runs the show himself.

King87
12-26-2016, 04:05 PM
Kubiak has to run his system. He's not actually innovative and very much a square peg round hole type of guy.

Val I think Kyle Shanahan is about to be someone's head coach.

Freyaka
12-26-2016, 04:09 PM
Kubiak has to run his system. He's not actually innovative and very much a square peg round hole type of guy.

Val I think Kyle Shanahan is about to be someone's head coach.

Well....I mean, couldn't be worse than what we've got? Why not see if another Shanahan can take us to the promised land? I'd take him over Kubes at this point

Cugel
12-26-2016, 04:09 PM
Kubiak isn't going anywhere unless he decides to retire. If I were he, I would. Having a stroke in your 50's is no joke. No job is worth that. But, there's no indication Kubiak is considering retirement. The only thing would be if Elway tells Kubiak, "we need to fire OL CLancy Barone, and the not-at-all-special teams coach" and Kubiak refuses because those guys are his friends.

He's hired Rick Dennison in every job he's ever had. If Elway wants Dennison gone, it could provoke a confrontation between Kubiak and Elway. More likely though, they keep Dennison, and fire Barone, because some head MUST roll after this season's fiasco. You can't blame it all on the players.

The OL actually got worse as the season progressed. Every week it was a different offender, unlike last year when we could reliably expect Michael Schofield to be the culprit everytime a defender blew past an OL to smite the QB. I don't know how you keep your job after a performance like that, but I guess cronyism maybe?

Cugel
12-26-2016, 04:14 PM
Kubiak has to run his system. He's not actually innovative and very much a square peg round hole type of guy.

Val I think Kyle Shanahan is about to be someone's head coach.

Definitely. He'll have multiple choices of teams. Really, if you're Cleveland or the Jagwads or the Jets or Bears, what do you have to lose? It's just that he's not coming to Denver.

Chances are ZERO unless Kubiak decides to retire. Remember that Elway didn't wait long to fire Fox. Just one quick meeting where they realized they were not at all on the same page, and Fox was gone.

If Kubiak decides to hang it up, we'll know pretty soon. If he did though I suspect it might trigger a mass exodus of players deciding that Denver is no longer the place to be.

spikerman
12-26-2016, 04:25 PM
Definitely. He'll have multiple choices of teams. Really, if you're Cleveland or the Jagwads or the Jets or Bears, what do you have to lose? It's just that he's not coming to Denver.

Chances are ZERO unless Kubiak decides to retire. Remember that Elway didn't wait long to fire Fox. Just one quick meeting where they realized they were not at all on the same page, and Fox was gone.

If Kubiak decides to hang it up, we'll know pretty soon. If he did though I suspect it might trigger a mass exodus of players deciding that Denver is no longer the place to be.

Kubiak is already talking about prepping for next year so unless he changes his mind it sounds like he'll be back. I do think (hope) that Elway has seen enough of this laughingstock of an offense though.

King87
12-26-2016, 04:29 PM
Definitely. He'll have multiple choices of teams. Really, if you're Cleveland or the Jagwads or the Jets or Bears, what do you have to lose? It's just that he's not coming to Denver.

Chances are ZERO unless Kubiak decides to retire. Remember that Elway didn't wait long to fire Fox. Just one quick meeting where they realized they were not at all on the same page, and Fox was gone.

If Kubiak decides to hang it up, we'll know pretty soon. If he did though I suspect it might trigger a mass exodus of players deciding that Denver is no longer the place to be.

I don't think I have ever read anything that I disagreed with more. Ever.

PFM wanted to be here because of Elway. Not Fox. He certainly didn't say for Kubiak. Ware wanted to be here for a winner. Same for Ward, Welker, etc etc etc.

Kubiak isn't the guy that makes Denver an attractive place to be. He was, however, hired by THAT guy.

Cugel
12-26-2016, 04:38 PM
Kubiak is already talking about prepping for next year so unless he changes his mind it sounds like he'll be back. I do think (hope) that Elway has seen enough of this laughingstock of an offense though.

The problem is that the assistant coaches are all Kubiak's friends. He asked for them, lured them to Denver to work with him, just as he did as OC in Baltimore. Now Elway tells him he has to fire Joe DeCamillis, the Special Teams coach whose unit failed so spectacularly once again Sunday night? DeCamillis was acting head coach when Kubiak had to go to the hospital (with stress related migranes). And Clancy Barone, Rick Dennison, et al. Those are his friends. Guys he brought with him to Denver.

He's a very loyal guy. Former players who know him well insist he would walk rather than fire Rick Dennison. We'll see. I imagine today might be the day when he and Elway sit down and talk about their future together.

Cugel
12-26-2016, 04:42 PM
I don't think I have ever read anything that I disagreed with more. Ever.

PFM wanted to be here because of Elway. Not Fox. He certainly didn't say for Kubiak. Ware wanted to be here for a winner. Same for Ward, Welker, etc etc etc.

Kubiak isn't the guy that makes Denver an attractive place to be. He was, however, hired by THAT guy.

Players like T.J. Ward and DeMarcus Ware came here because PM made Denver an elite SB contender. PM came here because of Elway. So, indirectly, Elway was what made Denver so attractive.

But, PM isn't here any more. And, so the question becomes "is Denver an elite AFC team or not in 2017?" If not, then some players are going to want to move on. And none of them will care a fig about whether Elway is the GM. They hardly interact with him at all on a daily basis.

And the head coach retiring would not be a vote of confidence in the immediate future. New coach means at least 1/3 of the roster would be playing elsewhere anyway. New Coaches always want new players to go with their new coaching philosophy and some players who were favored by the old coach wouldn't fit in and would move on.

Happens every time there's a coaching change.

Valar Morghulis
12-26-2016, 04:53 PM
Players like T.J. Ward and DeMarcus Ware came here because PM made Denver an elite SB contender. PM came here because of Elway. So, indirectly, Elway was what made Denver so attractive. But, PM isn't here any more. And, so the question becomes "is Denver an elite AFC team or not in 2017?" If not, then some players are going to want to move on. And none of them will care a fig about whether Elway is the GM. They hardly interact with him at all on a daily basis. And the head coach retiring would not be a vote of confidence in the immediate future. New coach means at least 1/3 of the roster would be playing elsewhere anyway. New Coaches always want new players to go with their new coaching philosophy and some players who were favored by the old coach wouldn't fit in and would move on. Happens every time there's a coaching change.

I don't understand who you think will move on... That we are not happy to let walk

King87
12-26-2016, 04:53 PM
Players like T.J. Ward and DeMarcus Ware came here because PM made Denver an elite SB contender. PM came here because of Elway. So, indirectly, Elway was what made Denver so attractive.

But, PM isn't here any more. And, so the question becomes "is Denver an elite AFC team or not in 2017?" If not, then some players are going to want to move on. And none of them will care a fig about whether Elway is the GM. They hardly interact with him at all on a daily basis.

And the head coach retiring would not be a vote of confidence in the immediate future. New coach means at least 1/3 of the roster would be playing elsewhere anyway. New Coaches always want new players to go with their new coaching philosophy and some players who were favored by the old coach wouldn't fit in and would move on.

Happens every time there's a coaching change.

No, not indirectly. When you sign players to good deals for both sides and you win, players want to go there. It's actually quite direct. Denver will probably be a 9-7 team this year with a reputation for paying fair market deals to free agents. Players aren't going to go 'omfg they missed the playoffs one time so they're done'. Again, players weren't coming here for John Fox or Gary Kubiak. They were coming for the money, and to win.

Denver pays, and they win. A lot. A new coach for us means the defense....is largely the same. Even if we keep the same coach, we should be seeing a vast change in personnel anyway. We have three, maybe four WR's worth keeping. We have maybe one TE worth keeping. We have maybe two RB's worth keeping.

Ya dig?

Jaded
12-26-2016, 06:24 PM
The problem is that the assistant coaches are all Kubiak's friends. He asked for them, lured them to Denver to work with him, just as he did as OC in Baltimore. Now Elway tells him he has to fire Joe DeCamillis, the Special Teams coach whose unit failed so spectacularly once again Sunday night? DeCamillis was acting head coach when Kubiak had to go to the hospital (with stress related migranes). And Clancy Barone, Rick Dennison, et al. Those are his friends. Guys he brought with him to Denver.

He's a very loyal guy. Former players who know him well insist he would walk rather than fire Rick Dennison. We'll see. I imagine today might be the day when he and Elway sit down and talk about their future together.

DeCamillis stole a game for Denver, aside from his insisting on bringing the ball out of endzone I wouldn't think he's on hot seat.

Btw, Barone isn't Kubiak's hire.

BCJ
12-26-2016, 10:30 PM
DeCamillis stole a game for Denver, aside from his insisting on bringing the ball out of endzone I wouldn't think he's on hot seat.

Btw, Barone isn't Kubiak's hire.

ST had some bad moments but they also won us the game vs Saints. Barone has to go. No one wants to claim him and Dennison can leave too. The last game they finally opened a second page of the playbook and even went with a flea flicker. Too little, too late.

NightTerror218
12-27-2016, 01:47 PM
Elway will force a coaching change if needed. He is cutthroat. However, i think he will side on lack of roster talent on OL and missing on his draft picks than coach change.

Broncoknight30
12-27-2016, 08:42 PM
Elway will force a coaching change if needed. He is cutthroat. However, i think he will side on lack of roster talent on OL and missing on his draft picks than coach change.

Do any of us really know who is in charge of calling plays? I read Knapp, I read Dennison, I read both, and I would think Kubiak must have say. What is the deal? Any other team have several OCs calling plays?

It also seems they try to hammer square pegs in round holes to me. Which, is discouraging.

Here is what I was not seeing, and what I really thought they were going to do. I thought because they had a more MOBILE QB in Siemian, or Lynch or even Sanchez for that matter that we were going to see more bootleg keepers. More of that action. I did not see any of that. None. That is NOT what we know as the stretch run Kubiak offense.

I mean this milquetoast offense was about as generic and unimaginative as it gets. Nothing. Is it because cutblocks are banned that they do not do it?

What I do know is this offense is shit. It was shit last year. Just...pure....shit. Based on their inability to even attempt to you know....TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT, leaves me most concerned about the coaching staff in charge this pure shit offense.

If this offense was even AVERAGE, I am confident Denver could have made a legit run.

Cugel
12-28-2016, 01:54 PM
No, not indirectly. When you sign players to good deals for both sides and you win, players want to go there. It's actually quite direct. Denver will probably be a 9-7 team this year with a reputation for paying fair market deals to free agents. Players aren't going to go 'omfg they missed the playoffs one time so they're done'. Again, players weren't coming here for John Fox or Gary Kubiak. They were coming for the money, and to win.

Denver pays, and they win. A lot. A new coach for us means the defense....is largely the same. Even if we keep the same coach, we should be seeing a vast change in personnel anyway. We have three, maybe four WR's worth keeping. We have maybe one TE worth keeping. We have maybe two RB's worth keeping.

Ya dig?

No. Demarcus Ware is a perfect example. He came here because of Peyton Manning. He got a 3 year $30 M deal, which was his market value. He could have gotten a generally comparable deal with other teams. But, Denver had just gone 12-4 and played in the Super Bowl. And they had a HOF QB who had just set the all-time NFL passing records. He is a Hall of Fame player nearing the end of his career, and he wanted to play for a championship team.

So, if the $ was in the general ball-park between Denver and several other teams he visited he would prefer to play here. When he was released lots of teams wanted him: "Three weeks ago, Ware had two bone chips removed from his elbow. His recovery is said to be going well. Once he was released by Dallas, at least a dozen teams expressed interest."

Those other teams might have offered similar money, but they didn't present as good a chance for a SB ring. Hence he signed with Denver.

Whey a team is trying to sign high value FAs normally they generate a LOT of interest and several teams making serious bids for them. What then decides is whether that team is generally competitive for a SB or whether they are in a rebuilding mode.

Younger players who just want more $ (like Malik Jackson) might be willing to go to Jacksonville for the big payday, even if that means never playing in another playoff game in their career. But, veterans like Ware aren't making decisions solely on who will pay the most.

Cugel
12-28-2016, 02:00 PM
Do any of us really know who is in charge of calling plays? I read Knapp, I read Dennison, I read both, and I would think Kubiak must have say. What is the deal? Any other team have several OCs calling plays?

It also seems they try to hammer square pegs in round holes to me. Which, is discouraging.


You know, I haven't been able to figure that out either. Supposedly Rick D. is the OC, but then also supposedly, Kubiak took more of a hands on approach to the offense and let Wade Phillips run the defense. It doesn't seem like Dennison did a very good job. Once Kubiak had his health problems and was rushed to the emergency room, I think after the Atlanta game, the team started to tank offensively. That would have corresponded to a period where Kubiak obviously couldn't have much imput into the offense.

Even with the bad OL they should be able to score more than 3 points without the defense handing them the ball inside the opposing 20. But now, if the defense does get a turnover, everybody in the stadium is thinking "they gotta run it back for a pick-6" because if the offense gets it at the opponent 40 odds are they are going to punt or at best a long FG.

On a normal team, all the offensive coaches would be on the hot seat and several of them (at least) would get fired, including OL coach Barone and Dennison. But, these are Kubiak's cronies. He's hired them for every head coaching job he's ever had. They're his friends, in some cases very long standing friends.

I think that's part of what happens to coaches like Shanahan who coach for a long time - they build up this network of cronies they can't just fire, cause these guys are long-standing friends. It sometimes ends up costing them their jobs.

Freyaka
12-28-2016, 02:48 PM
You know, I haven't been able to figure that out either. Supposedly Rick D. is the OC, but then also supposedly, Kubiak took more of a hands on approach to the offense and let Wade Phillips run the defense. It doesn't seem like Dennison did a very good job. Once Kubiak had his health problems and was rushed to the emergency room, I think after the Atlanta game, the team started to tank offensively. That would have corresponded to a period where Kubiak obviously couldn't have much imput into the offense.

Even with the bad OL they should be able to score more than 3 points without the defense handing them the ball inside the opposing 20. But now, if the defense does get a turnover, everybody in the stadium is thinking "they gotta run it back for a pick-6" because if the offense gets it at the opponent 40 odds are they are going to punt or at best a long FG.

On a normal team, all the offensive coaches would be on the hot seat and several of them (at least) would get fired, including OL coach Barone and Dennison. But, these are Kubiak's cronies. He's hired them for every head coaching job he's ever had. They're his friends, in some cases very long standing friends.

I think that's part of what happens to coaches like Shanahan who coach for a long time - they build up this network of cronies they can't just fire, cause these guys are long-standing friends. It sometimes ends up costing them their jobs.

The closer we get to the offseason, the more I begin to wonder if cutting ties with Kubiak is for the best. There have been rumblings that it could happen...

Broncoknight30
12-28-2016, 05:22 PM
The closer we get to the offseason, the more I begin to wonder if cutting ties with Kubiak is for the best. There have been rumblings that it could happen...

I am just wondering if anyone else noticed that they DID NOT really run ANY of the stretch run offense that consists of constant or frequent bootlegs. Did anyone else notice the lack of that?

My confusion and frustration is it seemed that they did not even attempt to try something new. The west coast offense was created by Bill Walsh to specifically make up for a lack of a running game. That was the entire goal and how he stumbled into the system.

Here is a tutorial of the "west coast offense" that Kubiak supposedly came here to run.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6mFQvZxX88

I just find it interesting. I know it is not as simple as that NOW, but there are still aspects of it that I did not see. For instance, does it seem to anyone that Siemian was not taking any sort if 3 step drops? Did it seem to us that he took way too many drop back passes behind an inept OL that did not have the ability to keep four rushers from collapsing the pocket?

Again, perhaps way too simplistic. What we do know is what they were trying, was NOT working. I did not see sort of ATTEMPT to try anything different. Nothing that makes me think they are capable of trying something different.

spikerman
12-28-2016, 05:43 PM
There have been rumblings that it could happen...

Do you mean besides on here? :lol:

Magnificent Seven
12-28-2016, 05:50 PM
I think they should fire offensive linemen coach and wide receivers coach.

*Offensive linemen played poorly.

*Too much dropped passes.

NightTerror218
12-28-2016, 06:57 PM
I think they should fire offensive linemen coach and wide receivers coach.

*Offensive linemen played poorly.

*Too much dropped passes.

Sanders has not had a registered drop all season. Saw this stat posted last week on twitter.

Shazam!
12-28-2016, 07:14 PM
I so do not want Dennison fired. He had very little to work with on the Line. It's the players on the Line not the Coach or technique imo.

They cannot block. It's that simple.

Freyaka
12-28-2016, 07:24 PM
Do you mean besides on here? :lol:

Actually yea oddly enough.

Nomad
12-28-2016, 07:26 PM
Do you mean besides on here? :lol:

This place is pretty calm compared to OM and BC. :)

Freyaka
12-28-2016, 07:57 PM
This place is pretty calm compared to OM and BC. :)

BC is a cancer these days...It's sad because the only place I post over there anymore is the smack forums because they are more reasonable.

Cugel
12-29-2016, 11:18 AM
DeCamillis stole a game for Denver, aside from his insisting on bringing the ball out of endzone I wouldn't think he's on hot seat.

Btw, Barone isn't Kubiak's hire.

It was Rick Dennison I was thinking of. Yes Barone needs to go, and I think he will. But, changing the OL coach isn't remotely enough. The entire offense has stunk bad since Kubiak came to town.

Since there is zero chance of Kubiak getting canned, and I wouldn't be in favor of it anyway at this point, given the almost total lack of really good coaching candidates out there, the question is "how can Denver regain it's offensive effectiveness?"

And Rick Dennison has just failed miserably to make good use of even the limited offensive talent he's assembled. He presumably signed off on FA hires like RT Donald Stevenson that have failed so spectacularly.

The offense falling flat on it's back reminds me of the bad defenses of Mike Shanahan's last few years - where they tried one FA loser, has-been or never-was like Sam Adams, or the Browncos DL only to see them get run over like a semi barrelling over a truck sign.

I just don't see how you can keep Dennison and pretend that the bad coaching has had nothing to do with the offensive failures. Other teams have no more if no less offensive talent than Denver and manage to do more than score 3 points in games.

Broncoknight30
12-29-2016, 11:31 AM
Just wondering if anyone knows what the relationship is between Elway and the Shanahans. I am getting the impression that it has not been good for quite a while. Only reason I am asking is I am wondering what the potential of Kyle Shanahan coming here....in the future.

I am guessing someone will be hiring him, but maybe not. However, IF he is not hired and IF this offense is as pathetic as it has been over the last two years, what about him?


Just so long as anyone that is hired knows.....Wade Philips is not going ANYWHERE.

Anyway, anyone know what that relationship is between Elway and Shanahan?

Cugel
12-29-2016, 11:47 AM
Supposedly, they're still friendly, but I doubt whether Kyle Shanahan would come here. He would constantly be competing with his father's shadow in the same city where his father coached for so many years. That's like a son going to the same team his father played for.

Having a famous father is a tough enough act to follow, but trying to compete with his legacy in the same city? I wouldn't do it and I don't think a lot of people would want that constant comparison.

But, the matter is academic because Kyle Shanahan cannot come to Denver as OC. That would be a lateral move and lateral moves are prohibited by NFL contracts - the Falcons would have to agree to let him out of the contract. They are not at all likely to want to do that and he is not at all likely to want to uproot his family, leave his team where he's had success and come here to do the exact same job.

His next job is going to be as a head coach somewhere. Nothing less.

And unless Kubiak resigns there's not going to be a head coaching vacancy in Denver.

NightTerror218
12-29-2016, 01:22 PM
http://den.247sports.com/Bolt/Report-John-Elway-expected-to-shake-up-Broncos-staff-roster-50072301

In less than 1 week time we shall see things shaken up

arapaho2
12-29-2016, 01:27 PM
The closer we get to the offseason, the more I begin to wonder if cutting ties with Kubiak is for the best. There have been rumblings that it could happen...


if we don't, then in my opinion Elway needs to step in and either mover barone back to Tes, where he was semi respectable or fire him, and get a true hard nosed oline coach, and then move or fire dennison, and hire a creative playcaller

we know that garys offense in theory still works, we see WCO around the league, but I think the issue is his inability or refusal to change up, his scripting plays has left us nowhere but in a hole, I believe we have only scored 1 or two Tds on a opening drives...and I believe both were due to INTS from the defense putting the offense in great position...whom ever is calling the plays lacks the ability to select plays based on what the defense is in, what our situation is

it seems we need 5 yards...every wr is running deep routes, we need 7 yards...the play called is a sideline out for 3 yards... we need 4 yards to keep a drive going...we throw 25 yards downfield....its discombobulated with no rhyme or reason...a week ago I looked up the passing stats and a little over 50% of our passing attempts are short sideline,...I think that's a bit predictable

NightTerror218
12-29-2016, 04:41 PM
if we don't, then in my opinion Elway needs to step in and either mover barone back to Tes, where he was semi respectable or fire him, and get a true hard nosed oline coach, and then move or fire dennison, and hire a creative playcaller

we know that garys offense in theory still works, we see WCO around the league, but I think the issue is his inability or refusal to change up, his scripting plays has left us nowhere but in a hole, I believe we have only scored 1 or two Tds on a opening drives...and I believe both were due to INTS from the defense putting the offense in great position...whom ever is calling the plays lacks the ability to select plays based on what the defense is in, what our situation is

it seems we need 5 yards...every wr is running deep routes, we need 7 yards...the play called is a sideline out for 3 yards... we need 4 yards to keep a drive going...we throw 25 yards downfield....its discombobulated with no rhyme or reason...a week ago I looked up the passing stats and a little over 50% of our passing attempts are short sideline,...I think that's a bit predictable

That has been my gripe with siemian its his to to throw rather than progressions. How many third and 5s do we get 4 yards with one of those passes that dont allow yards after catch. Great he got it out in 2.3 seconds but WR was not past the 1st down marker.

dogfish
12-29-2016, 06:00 PM
this is how it will go if dennison has to interview for his job in the off-season. . .



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4OvQIGDg4I


bobs: "Do you design the plays?"
dennison: "No."
bobs: "So, you write the gameplan."
dennison: "Well, no. Mostly Gary does that, or Knapp."
bobs: "Then you must call the plays?"
dennison: "No. I mean, sometimes!"
bobs: "What would ya say you DO here??"
dennison: "I already told you, I have coaching skills! I am good at coaching, damn it! Why can't you people understand?!"


this could be the solution, folks-- JFE needs to bring in the bobs this off-season. . .

"Good luck with that. I hope your firings go really well!"

Broncoknight30
12-29-2016, 07:52 PM
That has been my gripe with siemian its his to to throw rather than progressions. How many third and 5s do we get 4 yards with one of those passes that dont allow yards after catch. Great he got it out in 2.3 seconds but WR was not past the 1st down marker.

I am almost guaranteeing you he was pounded by the staff to TAKE WHAT THE DEFENSE gives you. Down and distance is crucial for defense and the DBs are usually covering that first down line rather tightly.

Meaning, the "soft coverage" is underneath. Admittedly, it was hard for us to watch. Especially with what we saw...for 3 seasons with Manning. No, I am not counting last year with Manning. You know what I mean.

I can almost hear them beating him over the head that trust the receiver to get the first down and trust the defensive side of the ball. That is the formula that won the championship last year.

NightTerror218
12-29-2016, 11:00 PM
I am almost guaranteeing you he was pounded by the staff to TAKE WHAT THE DEFENSE gives you. Down and distance is crucial for defense and the DBs are usually covering that first down line rather tightly.

Meaning, the "soft coverage" is underneath. Admittedly, it was hard for us to watch. Especially with what we saw...for 3 seasons with Manning. No, I am not counting last year with Manning. You know what I mean.

I can almost hear them beating him over the head that trust the receiver to get the first down and trust the defensive side of the ball. That is the formula that won the championship last year.

3rd and anything and just takingbthe underneith because its there is a poor ass play. We lead the league in 3 and outs because of this crap.

Freyaka
12-30-2016, 10:05 AM
3rd and anything and just takingbthe underneith because its there is a poor ass play. We lead the league in 3 and outs because of this crap.

I don't disagree, but that doesn't change his point that we don't know what the coaching staff is telling him and considering we've done the same crap for several years now...It's probably something from higher up.

NightTerror218
12-30-2016, 11:57 AM
I don't disagree, but that doesn't change his point that we don't know what the coaching staff is telling him and considering we've done the same crap for several years now...It's probably something from higher up.

With manning he got the 1st down when needed. We did not league in 3 and outs last year. You only thise if you are just getting closer for a field goal or getting out of your end zone. Hard to say several years now with this issue.

I dont doubt some of may be the receiver at times stopping short of first down. But not sanders or thomas doing it. And derby was good at getting past those markers.

Valar Morghulis
12-30-2016, 01:05 PM
It is kind of making me wonder just how "done" manning was and if he had a better line he could have avoided some injuries and a few fainting goats leading to him maybe not being completely inept for the last 20 games or so of his career

MOtorboat
12-30-2016, 01:27 PM
It is kind of making me wonder just how "done" manning was and if he had a better line he could have avoided some injuries and a few fainting goats leading to him maybe not being completely inept for the last 20 games or so of his career

He was done.

Hawgdriver
12-30-2016, 01:31 PM
He was done.

No question. His strength issues were personal and physiologic, independent of the line. He had enough technique and experience with defenses to compensate for many inadequacies of his line.

Freyaka
12-30-2016, 03:23 PM
It is kind of making me wonder just how "done" manning was and if he had a better line he could have avoided some injuries and a few fainting goats leading to him maybe not being completely inept for the last 20 games or so of his career

Honestly...I kinda have to wonder that too...Not that I want him back mind you, but who knows what we would have looked like last year if Kubiak hadn't come along and completely destroyed this offense trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole...

dogfish
12-30-2016, 03:31 PM
It is kind of making me wonder just how "done" manning was and if he had a better line he could have avoided some injuries and a few fainting goats leading to him maybe not being completely inept for the last 20 games or so of his career


He was done.

MO's right. . . he was way done. . . we were really lucky to get through that last stretch with him. . . i understand where the question comes from, but IMO we should be super grateful that we got as much as we did. . .

Cugel
12-30-2016, 08:48 PM
MO's right. . . he was way done. . . we were really lucky to get through that last stretch with him. . . i understand where the question comes from, but IMO we should be super grateful that we got as much as we did. . .

You forget that retiring after 2016 SB was very definitely NOT Peyton's plan going into 2015. Not at all. He reportedly reacted quite negatively to comments by Tom Brady in the previous off-season [Summer 2015] that he [Brady] intended to play another 7 years or so, but that 2015 was going to be Peyton's last year. Peyton was not fine with that at all. He, like a LOT of people expected things to go well with the offense in 2015 and succeeding years. They had fired a bunch of OL starters from the previous year and brought in FA veterans who had had some success on other teams. Like Evan Mathis.

I certainly wasn't alone in thinking that the OL could come together and be pretty good. And I predicted the team would win a minimum of 11 or 12 games, because I thought that an improved running game from an improved OL would take most of the pressure off Peyton. That was the plan but obviously that was not what happened.

Peyton tore a tendon in his foot. Yes, getting injured is part of getting older. But, not that particular injury. That was a fluke. And there's just no way to play effectively with a torn tendon. He could generate no push with his leg, so he had absolutely zero velocity on the ball. I'll never forget the KC game where Peyton set the passing record and they stopped the game after a 5 YD pass to Ronnie Hillman(?). A photo of that record throw showed his tendons and veins popping out of his arm, and a look of determination on his face like he's just heaving the ball. And it's a five yard pass.

That wasn't his arm that was shot, it was his foot.

But, such an injury wasn't inevitable. Peyton was not less healthy than Tom Brady, except in one respect - his 4 neck surgeries. But, his retirement had nothing to do with his neck.

If it hadn't been for that foot injury he would have come back for 2016. The Broncos didn't want him because of how he played (injured) in 2015 of course. But, they would certainly have wanted him back over Osweiler if he had been reasonably healthy and productive during 2015.

And he would have been that if the OL hadn't sucked so bad and he hadn't gotten hurt. (Independent variables, dependent condition).

His getting the type of injury that would make it impossible to throw the football with any force wasn't inevitable at all. His getting beat like a rented mule behind Denver's terrible 2015 OL wasn't helpful either.

I insist if Denver had an OL like Dallas' Peyton would still be playing.

Broncoknight30
12-31-2016, 08:01 AM
You forget that retiring after 2016 SB was very definitely NOT Peyton's plan going into 2015. Not at all. He reportedly reacted quite negatively to comments by Tom Brady in the previous off-season [Summer 2015] that he [Brady] intended to play another 7 years or so, but that 2015 was going to be Peyton's last year. Peyton was not fine with that at all. He, like a LOT of people expected things to go well with the offense in 2015 and succeeding years. They had fired a bunch of OL starters from the previous year and brought in FA veterans who had had some success on other teams. Like Evan Mathis.

I certainly wasn't alone in thinking that the OL could come together and be pretty good. And I predicted the team would win a minimum of 11 or 12 games, because I thought that an improved running game from an improved OL would take most of the pressure off Peyton. That was the plan but obviously that was not what happened.

Peyton tore a tendon in his foot. Yes, getting injured is part of getting older. But, not that particular injury. That was a fluke. And there's just no way to play effectively with a torn tendon. He could generate no push with his leg, so he had absolutely zero velocity on the ball. I'll never forget the KC game where Peyton set the passing record and they stopped the game after a 5 YD pass to Ronnie Hillman(?). A photo of that record throw showed his tendons and veins popping out of his arm, and a look of determination on his face like he's just heaving the ball. And it's a five yard pass.

That wasn't his arm that was shot, it was his foot.

But, such an injury wasn't inevitable. Peyton was not less healthy than Tom Brady, except in one respect - his 4 neck surgeries. But, his retirement had nothing to do with his neck.

If it hadn't been for that foot injury he would have come back for 2016. The Broncos didn't want him because of how he played (injured) in 2015 of course. But, they would certainly have wanted him back over Osweiler if he had been reasonably healthy and productive during 2015.

And he would have been that if the OL hadn't sucked so bad and he hadn't gotten hurt. (Independent variables, dependent condition).

His getting the type of injury that would make it impossible to throw the football with any force wasn't inevitable at all. His getting beat like a rented mule behind Denver's terrible 2015 OL wasn't helpful either.

I insist if Denver had an OL like Dallas' Peyton would still be playing.

Let us not forget that Peyton Manning displayed a significant decline dating back to the second half of the 2014 season. Really beginning with that Rams game if we remember. Then that play off game against the Colts, was...really hard to watch. I do not know how much an injury contributed, or he simply hit a wall.

SB 50 the offense had ONE TD drive....which was a FOUR yard drive and that needed a PI penalty to keep that FOUR yard drive alive.

He had clearly lost a lot and a blue print was really set by the Seahawks in SB 48. It really got exposed in that Chiefs game last year. He was not really under much pressure with the ints, and he was not displaying much of a limp at all.

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/gb4k29XnqtrMYUnIbWsOaZlxcTo=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4269151/0qbrating.0.gif

The offense behind Manning last year did not exactly generate a lot of points. Barely, if any more points than this year. We all pretty much knew that Kubiak would not and could not run the offense that many of us thought he would run this year. Mainly due to Manning's total inability to run bootleg play action.

Which of course leads me to my utter disappointment with what Kubiak (Dennison or Knapp) DID NOT do with what was a more athletic QB. If Siemian was not able to run it, then he should not have been the starter. Siemian imo did display SOME mobility.

Just to reiterate, I just do not know why Kubiak did not run that stretch run offense with frequent bootleg keepers. That is one of the signatures of the offense that he has run and it was weird to me that the OL was set up to run a "power offense."