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View Full Version : How do we fix this team in 2017?



Freyaka
12-24-2016, 02:40 PM
I was discussing this with some friends earlier. We all know that Kubiak's biggest flaw is that he's too loyal to screw ups. The biggest problem we have is we've got coaches operating outside their depth. Barone isn't an o-line coach, Dennison is a garbage OC. The biggest steps we could take to right the ship is this.

1. Move Barone back to TE's. He's not a bad TE coach, but he clearly can't coach o-line...
2. Move Dennison to o-line coach. Again, he's a crap OC. He has no business doing it, but he can coach the o-line. He was the o-line coach from 2001-2005 and again in 2009.
3. Take away Kubiak's control over the offense. Kubiak is a good HC, but he needs to focus on that and only that.
4. Bring in a true OC to run the offense. My dream option would be to hire Kyle Shannahan as the Assistance Head Coach/OC.
5. Drive Jordan Norwood off a cliff in a pinto.

This solves two issues. We don't upset Kube's loyalty (which is a good and a bad thing) but we also start utilizing people in areas that they are strong rather than taking a guys with little or bad experience in a position and making them in charge of that area.

What things do you think we could do to have a better year in 2017?

rjent
12-24-2016, 02:44 PM
Can you even find a Pinto that still runs?

Freyaka
12-24-2016, 02:47 PM
Can you even find a Pinto that still runs?

I mean it doesn't need to run really. We could tie him to the seat and let the defense push him over, I'm not sure that they would need a lot of incentive.

Northman
12-24-2016, 02:52 PM
1) Fix the Oline, that must be priority one. Whether you draft a couple or get them through FA its got to happen.

2) RB- I like Forsett, CJ, and Booker but im not convinced any of them are really game changers. McCaffery is projected as a first but as the 3rd ranked RB to got that round. If Denver doesnt see a Lineman they like i think Christian would be a good selection.

3) As Mike suggested, Kubes needs to relieve his play calling duties to an actual OC. We just are not creative enough in schemes and to me very predictable on offense.

4) LB- I still think we need a playmaker on the inside. Im not super impressed with our LB corp at the moment.

Freyaka
12-24-2016, 02:55 PM
1) Fix the Oline, that must be priority one. Whether you draft a couple or get them through FA its got to happen.

2) RB- I like Forsett, CJ, and Booker but im not convinced any of them are really game changers. McCaffery is projected as a first but as the 3rd ranked RB to got that round. If Denver doesnt see a Lineman they like i think Christian would be a good selection.

3) As Mike suggested, Kubes needs to relieve his play calling duties to an actual OC. We just are not creative enough in schemes and to me very predictable on offense.

4) LB- I still think we need a playmaker on the inside. Im not super impressed with our LB corp at the moment.

I think I agree on all points. I'd love to have McCaffery here, the Raiders want him, but we pick before they do :D

turftoad
12-24-2016, 02:57 PM
Problem is, is "WE" can't do shit about it. But it sure is fun to talk about!

Freyaka
12-24-2016, 03:01 PM
Problem is, is "WE" can't do shit about it. But it sure is fun to talk about!

Obviously we can't do anything, but it's the offseason. Gotta have something to talk about in the offseason (yes... I know, season "technically" isn't over, but it is...)

BORDERLINE
12-24-2016, 03:13 PM
****en sick of this shit. There are two games still to play and fixing the team in 2017 can't start until 2016 is done. Hold off until we see how we finish. I'm just pist LOL

Freyaka
12-24-2016, 03:15 PM
****en sick of this shit. There are two games still to play and fixing the team in 2017 can't start until 2016 is done. Hold off until we see how we finish. I'm just pist LOL

If you think we are anything other than out of the playoffs, that's fine. But we're done...All that's left to figure out is our final record, but the season is basically over.

Honestly I'm not even mad about it. Seasons like this have to happen every now and then, we've had years of success in a row, we'll rebuild, reload and come back hard next season.

King87
12-24-2016, 03:19 PM
The line needs to be upgraded. Some of that has to come from better personnel. Some of it has to come from better scheming. Some of it has to come from player development.

We need better playcalling. It's not cutting it. We call games in listless and tepid ways. Dogfish said it best by calling it uninspired.

Kubiak needs to decide if he's conservative or aggressive. One week he's kicking long bomb field goals and the next week he's wasting timeouts and kneeling while giving up a FG shot.

We need more than one good runningback. It's embarrassing that we don't have that. FFS, the Cleveland Browns arguably have that.

We need development on the middle of the DL. Sly Williams has become a turd. He can kick rocks and suck cocks for all I care.

A TE who is competent would be nice. Green is trash and should be given up on. Darby might be a guy, but he's had some fumbles and awful drops. I think it would be foolish to write him off OR expect him to be the real deal.

Our returnman isn't on the team.

We carry far too many shitty WR's. Lattimer is garbage. Norwood is super garbage. We need less garbage at that position. We would be so ****** if DT or ES missed a lot of games.

Ultimately, the offense needs a strong reboot.

Northman
12-24-2016, 03:20 PM
We are not done but the odds are heavily stacked against us right now. Not only do we have to win the last 2 games but we need help in other areas as well. Its not really a bad thing to start thinking about how to improve the team next year whether we are able to make the playoffs or not. The team has some very glaring needs and it was already a long shot to repeat anyway.

Freyaka
12-24-2016, 03:41 PM
We are not done but the odds are heavily stacked against us right now. Not only do we have to win the last 2 games but we need help in other areas as well. Its not really a bad thing to start thinking about how to improve the team next year whether we are able to make the playoffs or not. The team has some very glaring needs and it was already a long shot to repeat anyway.

And as was mentioned above, we as fans can't do anything. This is just a discussion of what could be done. Very little of it likely will be done.

Valar Morghulis
12-24-2016, 03:43 PM
We need more scrub wide receivers at the expense of other positions of need.

Jaded
12-24-2016, 03:59 PM
Step one; trade Trevor Siemian for a 12-pack and large pizza.

Jaded
12-24-2016, 03:59 PM
We need more scrub wide receivers at the expense of other positions of need.

Thank you!

Jaded
12-24-2016, 07:34 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000761992/article/broncos-approach-to-qb-still-smart-tom-savage-playoffbound

This is where I'm at with this team.

VonDoom
12-24-2016, 09:00 PM
Fix the O-line, obviously. How we do it is up for debate. I'd go after at least one or two FA and use a first or second rounder on one. See what sticks. I'd keep Paradis and probably Stephenson, maybe move him to G as Jaded has suggested. Not sure on Okung at his 2017 salary.

Bring in a real OC. Dennison seems to do nothing and Kubiak is stretched too thin. If the no huddle, up tempo offense we saw early last week was because of Knapp, I wouldn't even mind him being promoted. At least he showed that he can adapt to our strengths occasionally

I haven't seen a lot of people say this, but upgrading our run defense is a high priority. We can't be a great defense if we're 29th against the run. Whether this means a real NT upgrade or an early ILB pick or both, we need it. Our strength as a defense is pass rushers and corners. We need to make teams play into that trap.

Get a real three down TE who can block and catch. Some good ones in the draft, I hear. We need a third threat in the passing game and it might as well be a TE instead of trying to make something out of our no name WR.

MOtorboat
12-24-2016, 09:09 PM
Have to try again on the offensive line. Maybe this time it's time to go get a first-round tackle. Also have to do something at quarterback, as neither look like long term solutions at this point.

Jaded
12-25-2016, 12:25 AM
MO, imo, this is a bad year to be so hardup for first round T's.

MOtorboat
12-25-2016, 12:27 AM
MO, imo, this is a bad year to be so hardup for first round T's.

They've got to try something. Maybe they catch a gem late in the first round because the tackles slip. Where's that kid from Alabama who got in legal trouble expected to go?

Jaded
12-25-2016, 12:44 AM
They've got to try something. Maybe they catch a gem late in the first round because the tackles slip. Where's that kid from Alabama who got in legal trouble expected to go?

From what I'm reading he's of of the few who makes 1st round sense, but in this draft that means he'll probably go even higher than he should.

Still way early but we usually have an idea by now.

Jaded
12-25-2016, 12:46 AM
Ryan Ramcyk is making 1st rnd noise but I think he just injured himself. Plus, he's from Wisconsin, they have a lot of bust OP lately.

Garett Boles is a sleeper right now, he moves like a TE, but he's from Utah. Ugh.

Dapper Dan
12-25-2016, 01:11 AM
Let's see what happens after we win the super bowl.

Valar Morghulis
12-25-2016, 01:13 AM
Let's see what happens after we win the super bowl.

If we make the play offs - I give us a good chance, but I doubt we make it.

Dapper Dan
12-25-2016, 01:23 AM
If we make the play offs - I give us a good chance, but I doubt we make it.
This guy always reminds me of you.
9929

Valar Morghulis
12-25-2016, 02:06 AM
This guy always reminds me of you. <img src="http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9929"/>

Because he is handsome AF?

Dapper Dan
12-25-2016, 02:08 AM
Because he is handsome AF?

Something like that. Can you have a pencil-thin mustache?

Valar Morghulis
12-25-2016, 02:36 AM
Something like that. Can you have a pencil-thin mustache?
I can have whatever you want

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-25-2016, 02:51 AM
Because he is handsome AF?

It's relative to your hairline.

weazel
12-25-2016, 03:07 AM
First thing is first, the cheerleadrs need tighter outfits

VonDoom
12-25-2016, 09:23 AM
Ryan Ramcyk is making 1st rnd noise but I think he just injured himself. Plus, he's from Wisconsin, they have a lot of bust OP lately.

Garett Boles is a sleeper right now, he moves like a TE, but he's from Utah. Ugh.

What about that G from Notre Dame?

King87
12-25-2016, 12:50 PM
Guys it's not always about first round talent. Second round talent often works out, too. Jonathan Cooper was supposedly the greatest guard prospect of all-time and he could barely start for this team. There are going to be real free agents out there, and we will have the draft.

It'll be alright. I promise it'll be alright.

MOtorboat
12-25-2016, 12:54 PM
Guys it's not always about first round talent. Second round talent often works out, too. Jonathan Cooper was supposedly the greatest guard prospect of all-time and he could barely start for this team. There are going to be real free agents out there, and we will have the draft.

It'll be alright. I promise it'll be alright.

You're right, it's not, it's about the right talent. But Denver hasn't tried an offensive lineman in the first round in eight years. Seeing the needs of this team, it would be a good year to try that route as second round and free agency hasn't done much.

King87
12-25-2016, 01:07 PM
You're right, it's not, it's about the right talent. But Denver hasn't tried an offensive lineman in the first round in eight years. Seeing the needs of this team, it would be a good year to try that route as second round and free agency hasn't done much.

When that other team I used to root for turned the franchise around it did start with a ginger at QB and a stylegod at WR. At the time they had to contend with a budding Steelers offense, the longball Ravens, and a league moving towards the passing game. They signed in FA a bunch of corners. Some young, some old, some talented, others not to much. But they brought in a lot of corners and safeties. Jonathan Joseph, Leon Hall, Newton, Williams, Pacman, Iloka, Reggie Williams, and a bunch of other guys I can barely recall. The answer was found in bringing in a lot of guys and tinkering around with it.

It worked out well. That awful team with that awful owner, fans, coach, and city, did not reach. If there wasn't a top flight secondary guy -even though they jerked it to secondary players- they didn't reach. I doubt that Elway will reach. So if that means we take a guard in the first, I'm cool. If that means in the first round we draft a run stuffing nightmare, I'm cool.

There are almost always older guys who have a few years left in the tank, too. Whitworth would instantly be the best guy on the line. I'm lobbying for that. Even for depth, he's been a guard and LT. That's just an example. Honestly, a first round guard is dope, too.

Jaded
12-26-2016, 01:01 AM
What about that G from Notre Dame?

He's getting 1st rnd talk but he's a Redshirt Soph, I don't know if he comes out.

slim
12-26-2016, 01:03 AM
Guys it's not always about first round talent. Second round talent often works out, too. Jonathan Cooper was supposedly the greatest guard prospect of all-time and he could barely start for this team. There are going to be real free agents out there, and we will have the draft.

It'll be alright. I promise it'll be alright.

You are the worst nihilist ever

King87
12-26-2016, 01:28 AM
You are the worst nihilist ever

You wanna know a real secret?

slim
12-26-2016, 01:30 AM
You wanna know a real secret?

Maybe?

Dapper Dan
12-26-2016, 01:36 AM
I'm still content knowing John Elway is in charge and not any of these other ********* around the league. Every move he makes he's doing it to win a super bowl. Not to sell tickets and make money. The guy wants to win. More importantly he wants to win with the Denver Broncos. #InElwayITrust

Joel
12-26-2016, 01:42 AM
I was discussing this with some friends earlier. We all know that Kubiak's biggest flaw is that he's too loyal to screw ups. The biggest problem we have is we've got coaches operating outside their depth. Barone isn't an o-line coach, Dennison is a garbage OC. The biggest steps we could take to right the ship is this.

1. Move Barone back to TE's. He's not a bad TE coach, but he clearly can't coach o-line...
Yeah, he is; his best "TE" was a puffed up WR who "can't block the sun out of his eyes." We KNOW he can't coach TEs because (wait for it...) that's what he was doing for us the FIRST time we moved him to the offensive line (i.e. before we moved him BACK to TEs last time.)


2. Move Dennison to o-line coach. Again, he's a crap OC. He has no business doing it, but he can coach the o-line. He was the o-line coach from 2001-2005 and again in 2009.
He was also the OC when Kubiak left for Houston, and the OC there when Shanny and the rest of his staff were axed in favor of McDumbass and his. He ran quite productive offenses in both Denver AND Houston—but since Barone was one of the guys McDumbass brought to Denver, Dennison didn't have that handicap then.


3. Take away Kubiak's control over the offense. Kubiak is a good HC, but he needs to focus on that and only that.
Funny, most folks seem to feel it's the other way around, but Kubiak was a good enough OC to win back-to-back SBs in Denver, and reach a third AFCCG before his OC talents got him promoted to HC in Houston (the sole reason Dennison replaced him as our OC.)


4. Bring in a true OC to run the offense. My dream option would be to hire Kyle Shannahan as the Assistance Head Coach/OC.
Dennison's proven a fine OC in two different cities, and Kyle Shanahan's already GOT a pretty OC gig in Atlanta, running that "obsolete" ZBS system to great effect, so we can't hire him away since it would be a lateral move.


5. Drive Jordan Norwood off a cliff in a pinto.
NOW we're on the same page.


What things do you think we could do to have a better year in 2017?
Draft OTs higher than 56th overall, and Gs higher than 95th. It's better to have five quality linemen and a pair of quality OLBs (or CBs) than five quality OLBs (or CBs) and a pair of quality linemen (not that we even have THAT many.) That's not an exaggeration either: I've heard more than a few posters rave about Lorenzo Doss and Dekoda Watson, but they're BOTH #5 on a depth chart with only TWO starters. Meanwhile Schofield's battling Sambrailo for a different starting spot.

Oh, and bounce Barone: The SOLE consistency in his SEVEN tenure as TE coach, then line coach, then TE coach, then line coach is that our TEs AND line have ALWAYS sucked, under THREE head coaches AND three GMS. Insanity is doing the same thing for seven years and blaming the coaches you just hired LAST year.

King87
12-26-2016, 01:44 AM
Maybe?

You killed the moment. I was going to give you insight into the real me. But you, you did me dirtier than the vag of a Raiders fan.

slim
12-26-2016, 01:45 AM
You killed the moment. I was going to give you insight into the real me. But you, you did me dirtier than the vag of a Raiders fan.

Don't be so dramatic.

King87
12-26-2016, 01:55 AM
Don't be so dramatic.

I'm eating chips and drinking a soda. It's hard to be dramatic doing that.

Cugel
12-26-2016, 02:30 PM
Draft OTs higher than 56th overall, and Gs higher than 95th. It's better to have five quality linemen and a pair of quality OLBs (or CBs) than five quality OLBs (or CBs) and a pair of quality linemen (not that we even have THAT many.) That's not an exaggeration either: I've heard more than a few posters rave about Lorenzo Doss and Dekoda Watson, but they're BOTH #5 on a depth chart with only TWO starters. Meanwhile Schofield's battling Sambrailo for a different starting spot.

Oh, and bounce Barone: The SOLE consistency in his SEVEN tenure as TE coach, then line coach, then TE coach, then line coach is that our TEs AND line have ALWAYS sucked, under THREE head coaches AND three GMS. Insanity is doing the same thing for seven years and blaming the coaches you just hired LAST year.

Oh, I imagine about 1/2 the teams in the NFL are thinking of doing that. Meanwhile, according to Broncos Insider Cecil Lammey, the draft guru, this is a below average draft for OL and a bunch of teams desperately needing them.

I imagine college going to the spread offenses everywhere does not help the development of NFL ready OL.

I think we have to face the fact that it's going to take multiple years to rebuild the OL. It has been a cancer on the team for the entire Manning era, and it just got worse this season when there was no Peyton with a lightning release to get rid of the ball when the RT just completely whiffs on his man and lets him come running through unblocked. Or the LT, or the RG or the LG. . . .

Dapper Dan
12-27-2016, 04:45 AM
I say we get Cordarrelle Patterson to be a return man and WR depth.

Valar Morghulis
12-27-2016, 06:05 AM
I say we get Cordarrelle Patterson to be a return man and WR depth.

He will end up a patriot. But I like your idea

Freyaka
12-27-2016, 08:08 AM
http://www.livememe.com/c2t27xd.jpg

Freyaka
12-27-2016, 08:09 AM
Yeah, he is; his best "TE" was a puffed up WR who "can't block the sun out of his eyes." We KNOW he can't coach TEs because (wait for it...) that's what he was doing for us the FIRST time we moved him to the offensive line (i.e. before we moved him BACK to TEs last time.)


He was also the OC when Kubiak left for Houston, and the OC there when Shanny and the rest of his staff were axed in favor of McDumbass and his. He ran quite productive offenses in both Denver AND Houstonóbut since Barone was one of the guys McDumbass brought to Denver, Dennison didn't have that handicap then.


Funny, most folks seem to feel it's the other way around, but Kubiak was a good enough OC to win back-to-back SBs in Denver, and reach a third AFCCG before his OC talents got him promoted to HC in Houston (the sole reason Dennison replaced him as our OC.)


Dennison's proven a fine OC in two different cities, and Kyle Shanahan's already GOT a pretty OC gig in Atlanta, running that "obsolete" ZBS system to great effect, so we can't hire him away since it would be a lateral move.


NOW we're on the same page.


Draft OTs higher than 56th overall, and Gs higher than 95th. It's better to have five quality linemen and a pair of quality OLBs (or CBs) than five quality OLBs (or CBs) and a pair of quality linemen (not that we even have THAT many.) That's not an exaggeration either: I've heard more than a few posters rave about Lorenzo Doss and Dekoda Watson, but they're BOTH #5 on a depth chart with only TWO starters. Meanwhile Schofield's battling Sambrailo for a different starting spot.

Oh, and bounce Barone: The SOLE consistency in his SEVEN tenure as TE coach, then line coach, then TE coach, then line coach is that our TEs AND line have ALWAYS sucked, under THREE head coaches AND three GMS. Insanity is doing the same thing for seven years and blaming the coaches you just hired LAST year.

I really don't give a crap what dennison did with kubiak previously...he's a crap OC because he's a yes man...We need to either move him to o-line coach or can him.

Traveler
12-27-2016, 10:48 AM
Does anyone know why was Connor McGovern inactive for the season? With all the horrific play at the G spot, is he actually worse than Garcia & Schoefield?

Freyaka
12-27-2016, 11:06 AM
Does anyone know why was Connor McGovern inactive for the season? With all the horrific play at the G spot, is he actually worse than Garcia & Schoefield?

Why did this coaching staff do anything that they did? Why was Norwood out there despite proving on almost every play that he didn't deserve it? There are a lot of frustrating questions surrounding the coaching staff.

At this point, after the last two weeks, I'm ready to just say purge everyone on the offensive side of the ball including Kubiak and let Shanny Jr take over with the stipulation that you can't get rid of Wade.

Traveler
12-27-2016, 11:37 AM
Why did this coaching staff do anything that they did? Why was Norwood out there despite proving on almost every play that he didn't deserve it? There are a lot of frustrating questions surrounding the coaching staff.

At this point, after the last two weeks, I'm ready to just say purge everyone on the offensive side of the ball including Kubiak and let Shanny Jr take over with the stipulation that you can't get rid of Wade.

Jr. isn't coming here even if Kube's stepped down or is fired. Jr. and Sr. are a package deal from what I've read recently.

Dapper Dan
12-27-2016, 12:32 PM
He will end up a patriot. But I like your idea

Y u do dis? :(

Freyaka
12-27-2016, 12:41 PM
Jr. isn't coming here even if Kube's stepped down or is fired. Jr. and Sr. are a package deal from what I've read recently.

And that would be a bad thing why? Shanny is good at evaluating offensive talent, he sucks on the defensive side of the ball. Elway seems to excel on the defensive side of the ball and fail on the offensive side. Seems like an idea pairing. From my understanding Shanny Sr and Elway have buried the hatchet, besides I've read the talk and most of it's just speculation that this is what Shanny Sr is trying to do with him as GM and his son as the Coach. Regardless, I'd be all for it, it brings Shanny Sr's knowledge back in house and allows for us to get something fresh on offense with his son running the show.

Nomad
12-27-2016, 01:01 PM
Elway has a lot of respect for Shanny Sr. It would not be shocking.

arapaho2
12-27-2016, 01:08 PM
well the hope was kubiak would retire...but that aint gonna happen I hear so hopefully Elway puts his foot down

we can say that our oline is untalented, they might be....but something I read from K Mecklenburg who said...he believes the biggest oline issue is coaching, that no matter if the oline isn't super talented...by week 13 they should have developed some cohesiveness and chemistry, that they should have proper technique and foot work to at least preform adequately...his belief is terrible oline coaching is the biggest culprit

so I hope Elway tells kubiak...drop barone immediately after the oak game
and take dennison with him

then hire a OC who will have control to install his own offense, perhaps meshed with some of kubiaks...but be able to call a game based on the defense being played, strategize and install a game plan.

and if kubes don't like it...fine, he can move on too

Traveler
12-27-2016, 01:16 PM
And that would be a bad thing why? Shanny is good at evaluating offensive talent, he sucks on the defensive side of the ball. Elway seems to excel on the defensive side of the ball and fail on the offensive side. Seems like an idea pairing. From my understanding Shanny Sr and Elway have buried the hatchet, besides I've read the talk and most of it's just speculation that this is what Shanny Sr is trying to do with him as GM and his son as the Coach. Regardless, I'd be all for it, it brings Shanny Sr's knowledge back in house and allows for us to get something fresh on offense with his son running the show.

Get real! Shanny Sr. isn't going to work for Elway or Kubes, buried hatchet or not. As to your comment on judging offensive talent, Shanny Sr. doesn't have a good history there either. He is a good coordinator, but his son has established himself as well. Don't need both.

NightTerror218
12-27-2016, 01:42 PM
First off upgrade OL. Do not pick up okungs contract and Cut sombrailo. Aim to resign okung cheap or for RT. Stephenson can be swing. Sign andrew Whitworth to a decent size contract to steal from bengals.

Finally sign Ron Leary at G. Still have Garcia, Schofield, and McGovern who can co.e along slow and fight for other G position.

This is big money so signing ware cheap will need to be done. Need his leadership and move to back up role to Shane Ray.

Elway loves to spend on defense. I would like to see Poe stolen from Chiefs if not kawann short then nick Fairley. My problem is FA DE stand out so we will have value FA here.

ILB needs address too. We marshall and then ST and backup talent to fill other stop. None of these guys are good in run game allowing many RB to get extra yards on carries. Luckily there are a ton of these guys available in FA. Hightower, teo, alonso, bostic, brown, minter, ect.

Draft i still think BPA but lean towards needs even though elways is good about filling all position holes before draft. I was to see a first round tackle since we will be in the top half of draft most likely and loaded with draft picks this year.

Nomad
12-27-2016, 01:56 PM
I believe if coaching and leadership in the locker room isn't addressed, then it'll be the same ol next season, regardless of what new talent is added to the team.

Dapper Dan
12-27-2016, 02:07 PM
I believe if coaching and leadership in the locker room isn't addressed, then it'll be the same ol next season, regardless of what new talent is added to the team.

I disagree. I think talent is the problem.

King87
12-27-2016, 02:12 PM
With an OC like Kubiak the team is going to need a lot of offensive talent just to get good production.

NightTerror218
12-27-2016, 02:19 PM
I disagree. I think talent is the problem.

I think this is how elway will view it. However OL coach might be address.

Dapper Dan
12-27-2016, 02:58 PM
In Kubiak's last 23 years of coaching he's not had a top 10 scoring offense 7 times. The year after Elway retired, his first 3 years in Houston, his last year in Houston, and the last two years in Denver. I just looked up the offensive stats for the 1994 49ers, the Broncos 1995-2005 2015-2016, the Texans 2006-2013, and the 2014 Ravens. The categories are ppg, ypg, passing ypg, and rushing ypg. The guy can coach an offense.

NightTerror218
12-27-2016, 03:06 PM
In Kubiak's last 23 years of coaching he's not had a top 10 scoring offense 7 times. The year after Elway retired, his first 3 years in Houston, his last year in Houston, and the last two years in Denver. I just looked up the offensive stats for the 1994 49ers, the Broncos 1995-2005 2015-2016, the Texans 2006-2013, and the 2014 Ravens. The categories are ppg, ypg, passing ypg, and rushing ypg. The guy can coach an offense.

Yes he can. But look at the OL draft picks. None are really working out and OL is key to kubiak system. He can do a lot with out world beaters but he uas to have them ateast able to run block. Right now he does not get that.

Freyaka
12-27-2016, 03:08 PM
I disagree. I think talent is the problem.

We have a lot of talent...The attitude of the players tends to be reflective of their leadership...Kubiak's so ho-hum about everything it's no wonder the team is too....I'm sorry, but our coaching staff (at least at the coordinator and position coach levels) is terrible...

Dapper Dan
12-27-2016, 03:12 PM
We have a lot of talent...The attitude of the players tends to be reflective of their leadership...Kubiak's so ho-hum about everything it's no wonder the team is too....I'm sorry, but our coaching staff (at least at the coordinator and position coach levels) is terrible...

I think you're putting way too much into the need for a rah-rah loudmouth coach. If these guys can't get motivated to play, they wouldn't be in the NFL.

We have a lot of talent as well as a lot of holes. The OTs didn't work out and we didn't have the depth to account for injuries.

Dapper Dan
12-27-2016, 03:15 PM
Yes he can. But look at the OL draft picks. None are really working out and OL is key to kubiak system. He can do a lot with out world beaters but he uas to have them ateast able to run block. Right now he does not get that.

What do you mean he doesn't get it? What do you expect him to do right now? All he can do is work with the players on this roster until the offseason.

Every pick and acquasition isn't going to work out. Lately, those have been on the OL. Though I think we did well with Paradis. Who saw that coming? And Garcia is turning into an adequate player. We haven't heard as much bitching about Schofield at OG.

NightTerror218
12-27-2016, 03:36 PM
What do you mean he doesn't get it? What do you expect him to do right now? All he can do is work with the players on this roster until the offseason.

Every pick and acquasition isn't going to work out. Lately, those have been on the OL. Though I think we did well with Paradis. Who saw that coming? And Garcia is turning into an adequate player. We haven't heard as much bitching about Schofield at OG.

He does not get any production put of the OL. He needs them to run block to run his system.

Dapper Dan
12-27-2016, 03:45 PM
He does not get any production put of the OL. He needs them to run block to run his system.

I see what you meant and I agree with you.

NightTerror218
12-27-2016, 03:49 PM
I see what you meant and I agree with you.

Sorry for the confusion. Entire thought was not portrayed into a cohesive text for proper understanding.

Slick
12-27-2016, 03:50 PM
Garcia sucks DBake.

NightTerror218
12-27-2016, 03:51 PM
Garcia sucks DBake.

which is a shock since he played decent as a rookie.

Dapper Dan
12-27-2016, 03:53 PM
which is a shock since he played decent as a rookie.

Sophomore slump, hopefully. And I don't think the front office really likes starting rookies/young guys unless it's completely necessary.

BigDaddyBronco
12-27-2016, 05:09 PM
So what do they need to do to help rebuild this team.

Front Office - they need to get Elway some help on evaluating Offensive talent in the draft. We have not drafted well on offense other than Paradis, Trevor Siemian, Julian Thomas, and Orlando Franklin (probably okay to put Riley Dixon in the mix). Virgil Green, Osweiler, Ronnie Hillman have been okay, we'll see how Lynch and Janovich do. Most everyone else he has drafted on the offensive side has been meh or just bad. This includes 5 other OLine guys besides Franklin and Paradis, 3 RB's, 2 WR's, and 3 TE's (has done pretty well with them). They have been good on the defensive side, Von Miller, Wolfe, Danny T, Malik Jackson, Sly Williams, Kayvon Webster, Roby, Corey Nelson, Shane Ray, Simmons..... Quite a few guys who have either turned into starters or who have been decent back-ups.

Elway has also brought in great talent FA's, he just needs some help on picking the right offensive talent, especially on the OLine.

Coaching - It seems to me that we took a step back in creativity when Kubiak came back. If we need to keep Kubiak to keep Phillips then that is fine, but let's get an innovative, aggressive play caller along the likes of McCoy or Adam Gase to run the offense.

Personnel - Start with rebuilding the offensive and defensive lines. Offensive line is a bigger project. Have to find a better option at RT, absolutely mandatory. Can probably live with Okung if you can keep him from making massive money. Hopefully Paradis can come back from hip surgery, but both guards need t be upgraded. I would be good with a 1st round draft pick at RT or G, and FA's to replace the others. It hinges on if we can get Okung to rework his deal to make it better for us and Paradis coming back healthy. DLine just needs Wolfe and Vance Walker to come back healthy, Gotsis needs to improve, maybe add more depth to Winn and Crick. Have Phil Taylor on IR and Syl Williams maybe leaving. Need to do something at NT.

Finally a difference maker as a receiving TE and a great return guy (I know, but a man can dream). Another young stud ILB can be found in the weeds I pray. Danny T and B Marshall were like that.

Denver Native (Carol)
12-27-2016, 07:08 PM
19. Denver Broncos
2016 record: 8-7 (.536)
Top needs: OT, G, TE
Analysis: Russell Okung doesn't look like a long-term option at left tackle, and the guard play hasn't been much better. Both spots need to be addressed. Gary Kubiak's zone-rushing scheme is much more effective with a tight end who is an able blocker and this draft will offer those players.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000715300/article/2017-nfl-draft-order-and-needs-nos-1120

Cugel
12-28-2016, 02:33 PM
We have a lot of talent...The attitude of the players tends to be reflective of their leadership...Kubiak's so ho-hum about everything it's no wonder the team is too....I'm sorry, but our coaching staff (at least at the coordinator and position coach levels) is terrible...

This team does NOT have a "lot of talent" on Offense. Outside of Sanders and D.T. how many other Denver starters would start for any other team in the NFL? Almost none. None of them are an upgrade on even average NFL rosters.

Denver fans are much more familiar with the scrubs on this team than they are with the scrubs on other teams, so there's this idea that Denver's marginal players are better than those on other teams. That's not true though, at least on Denver's offense.

BroncoBuckeye73
12-30-2016, 09:12 PM
We need to say good bye to both our tackles. Like Kings suggestion on Whitworth is smart, and another one to look for is Wagner from Baltimore who is also a free agent. Draft a tackle in the first round if we can and let Sambrillo and the rest battle for the guards. Find a true third wide reciever/ return man since this has been a problem for years. Welker was good as a third reciever but we have been absolutely horrible wityh returners for years now. The position we should target with a high round pick is definetly a starting ILB and there are some good ones in the draft our back ups are nothing but special team players Davis and Marshall have both been injured and it showed up whenever Nelson or Zaire were in the game so we need somebody who can push one of them to the bench or give no drop off when playing as our ILBs are asked to do a lot of the run stuffing. I think we might re sign Sly and I think he needs to move to end and get a true strong fat assed NT in the middle like the idea of Poe but he will be really pricey.

Cugel
12-30-2016, 09:36 PM
That would be the plan BroncoBuckeye73 in a normal year. But, Cecil Lammey, the draft guru, has said this is a quite poor year for OL. There might be as few as 5 OL with a first round grade in this year's draft. And at least 1/2 the teams in the NFL would like one. There are a LOT of teams desperate to upgrade their OLs this year and damn little apparent talent to do it with.

Hence, top flight OL free-agents will cost a boat-load of cash. Several boat-loads in fact.

And Denver gave their boat-loads to Von Miller and other defenders. They have been getting by with cheap-ass FA and their late round draft picks. Who sucked.

But, they didn't do that because they were stupid. They knew they were running a calculated risk, but they decided to put the money into the defense, trying to keep Darien Stewart, Aquib Talib, Chris Harris, T.J. Ward, and especially Von. They got all those guys locked up for the future, but there ain't much money left for FA Ts who will command ginormous contracts.

The Oakland Raiders built their OL through FA. Know who the highest paid player on the Raiders is?


LG Kelechi Osemele signed a 5 year, $58,500,000 contract with the Oakland Raiders, including $25,400,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $11,700,000. In 2016, Osemele will earn a base salary of $6,700,000, a roster bonus of $6,000,000, a workout bonus of $500,000 and a incentive bonus of $300,000. Osemele has a cap hit of $13,200,000 while his dead money value is $25,900,000.

Know who their second highest paid player is?


C Rodney Hudson signed a 5 year, $44,500,000 contract with the Oakland Raiders, including $20,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $8,900,000. In 2016, Hudson will earn a base salary of $7,350,000, a workout bonus of $350,000 and a incentive bonus of $100,000. Hudson has a cap hit of $7,700,000 while his dead money value is $7,700,000.

Sure, you can create a monster OL through FA, just like the Raiders did. IF you are willing to devote a large chunk of your salary cap space to do it.

The Broncos don't have that luxury. They will be lucky to sign a second tier FA RT. They will have to try and re-sign LT Russell Okung, not because he was great, but because there's nobody better available that they could afford. And he might walk because he's due $11 M next year and no way in Hell will Elway give him that (its not guaranteed).

But, they will try and re-do his contract and pay him less. He's not getting $11 M he's due on the contract anywhere else either. Not after sucking this season. But, some team will probably give him some amount that you will consider totally ridiculous. And it will be totally ridiculous. Except that he'll get it.

Or you can do it like Dallas did, spending multiple first round picks, and building over several years of constant investment. Teams decide where to allocate resources. Some want their OL to be the core of their team and pay accordingly, or hit it lucky through the draft, and some put their money into defense. Denver is one of the latter.

Therefore, high priced solutions are no solutions for them.

Re-building the Ol through the draft is problematic too, as Cecil Lammey continually points out. Denver is at best drafting in the middle teens (8-8 teams historically draft between 14 and 18 and Denver's best draft position would be if they lost the Raiders game and finished 8-8).

Drafting an elite LT normally requires a top 10 pick. This year even that might not be enough to get a really good one. This is just a bad year for OL.

King87
12-30-2016, 09:43 PM
If Ware is cut -I think it's a forgone conclusion- that's ten million right there.

Cugel
12-30-2016, 09:51 PM
If Ware is cut -I think it's a forgone conclusion- that's ten million right there.

Except that they need immediate help on the DL too. Williams' contract is up and he may not be back. They also need a DE to replace Malik Jackson and stuff the run. That was a gaping void that was not filled this year. I was shocked seeing teams run up the middle on the Broncos defense for big gains. That didn't happen last year. Losing Vance Walker also hurt & they'll get him back.

But, none of these things will be cheap - keeping Sly Williams will cost a boatload. Replacing him with a veteran FA will cost a boat-load. Replacing him with a rookie presents a problem with the rookie needing time to learn the NFL. And drafting a NT or DE with the first pick (quite likely in fact) prevents the Broncos from using that high pick on an OL.

YOu can't draft by need. That's what stupid teams do, like the Detroit Lions back under Matt Millen who kept drafting WRs in the first round year after year. And losing large numbers of games because his OL & DL sucked.

The best available value when the Broncos draft in the round may very well NOT be on the OL.

King87
12-30-2016, 10:02 PM
Except that they need immediate help on the DL too. Williams' contract is up and he may not be back. They also need a DE to replace Malik Jackson and stuff the run. That was a gaping void that was not filled this year. I was shocked seeing teams run up the middle on the Broncos defense for big gains. That didn't happen last year. Losing Vance Walker also hurt & they'll get him back.

But, none of these things will be cheap - keeping Sly Williams will cost a boatload. Replacing him with a veteran FA will cost a boat-load. Replacing him with a rookie presents a problem with the rookie needing time to learn the NFL. And drafting a NT or DE with the first pick (quite likely in fact) prevents the Broncos from using that high pick on an OL.

YOu can't draft by need. That's what stupid teams do, like the Detroit Lions back under Matt Millen who kept drafting WRs in the first round year after year. And losing large numbers of games because his OL & DL sucked.

The best available value when the Broncos draft in the round may very well NOT be on the OL.

We might have to choose between which line we bolster in FA. Who knows how the draft will shake out. For all we know a surplus of d-lineman will be there, or another OL will fall because of issues.

BroncoBuckeye73
12-30-2016, 10:33 PM
Cugel i do think that this years Oline group in the draft is crap we still have a chance to grab a first rounder to help fortify the position. We will be drafting in the 20's with extra picks to move up with if necessary. Whitworth and or Wagner will cost money but Elway has shown a knack for getting free agents at his price and on his terms. This draft is deep though in defensive talent, running backs and recievers which with 10 picks gives us some flexabilty with the draft and acquire new talent and depth at those positions. Not a great draft this year in many experts minds but talent can be fpund. We are stuck though with the glaring fact that we will have 2 or 3 new tackles next year even if we have to over pay a little bit. The only other priority in free agency should be a competent return man and just resigning who we want to resign.

Jaded
12-30-2016, 11:11 PM
Cecil Lammey isn't a guru of shit.

VonDoom
12-30-2016, 11:19 PM
If Ware is cut -I think it's a forgone conclusion- that's ten million right there.

Isn't Ware a FA? Him leaving saves us no money

King87
12-30-2016, 11:28 PM
Isn't Ware a FA? Him leaving saves us no money

Well he cost ten million a year. If he leaves we we don't have to pay it, right? What am I missing?

Hawgdriver
12-31-2016, 01:28 AM
Step one; trade Trevor Siemian for a 12-pack and large pizza.

I was wondering your position on that subject.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-31-2016, 01:42 AM
Cecil Lammey isn't a guru of shit.

You're mock last year was pretty good. I'm starting to think you have a teeny weeny bit of insight into potential prospects...teeny weeny.

NightTerror218
12-31-2016, 01:47 AM
So far i have seen 3 OT listed in top 25 possible players of draft. With they highest rated around 20.

We are loaded with picks to move up if needed. Butbrlway should not fall into the hole of drafting a need if a high rated player falls. Inkeep hearing its a week OL class with robinson from bama as #1 OT.

Cugel
12-31-2016, 06:16 AM
Cugel i do think that this years Oline group in the draft is crap we still have a chance to grab a first rounder to help fortify the position. We will be drafting in the 20's with extra picks to move up with if necessary. Whitworth and or Wagner will cost money but Elway has shown a knack for getting free agents at his price and on his terms. This draft is deep though in defensive talent, running backs and recievers which with 10 picks gives us some flexabilty with the draft and acquire new talent and depth at those positions. Not a great draft this year in many experts minds but talent can be fpund. We are stuck though with the glaring fact that we will have 2 or 3 new tackles next year even if we have to over pay a little bit. The only other priority in free agency should be a competent return man and just resigning who we want to resign.

Actually, if the Broncos lose the Raiders game and finish 8-8 they would be drafting somewhere between 14 and 18. If they win and go 9-7 it would be around 20 or so. If the draft was today, the Broncos would draft #18. I looked up the draft position of 8-8 teams the last 3 years and it fell into the 14-18 range. The Broncos could even be drafting towards the high end of that range since they have very bad tie-breakers due to poor conference record and head to head losses, etc.

They might find a pretty good G or RT somewhere in the draft, but to expect this player to just jump into the starting lineup and we're off to the SB is the sort of mistake that they made the last couple of years. That was what they tried to do with Sambrailo. Well, it turns out that Sambrailo has a shoulder condition that limits his ability to get stronger through the weight room. In the NFL that equals bust. Back to the well.

As for drafting an elite LT replacement that usually requires a top 10-12 pick and a bit of luck like the drafting of Ryan Clady. It doesn't look like that kind of player will be available at any draft pick the Broncos could reach, even if they moved up a bit.

More likely they use the first round to get a NT or DE.

Cugel
12-31-2016, 06:22 AM
We might have to choose between which line we bolster in FA. Who knows how the draft will shake out. For all we know a surplus of d-lineman will be there, or another OL will fall because of issues.

It's pretty clear that they will move to strengthen the OL in FA unless they just fail to land anybody. Sure, they might find a pass-rushing DE but such guys are REALLY expensive. It's a lot easier to bring back Vance Walker and draft somebody, and re-sign NT Sly Williams.

Cugel
12-31-2016, 06:24 AM
So far i have seen 3 OT listed in top 25 possible players of draft. With they highest rated around 20.

We are loaded with picks to move up if needed. Butbrlway should not fall into the hole of drafting a need if a high rated player falls. Inkeep hearing its a week OL class with robinson from bama as #1 OT.

Cecil Lammey says he has 5 OL with a first round grade. If that grade were a 20's grade, the Broncos could trade back a bit. Also second and third round might be more reasonable if there were a lot of guys lacking in elite talent, but with a solid second round grade. RTs often fall into that category.

VonDoom
12-31-2016, 11:26 AM
Well he cost ten million a year. If he leaves we we don't have to pay it, right? What am I missing?

You used the word "cut", which isn't accurate. If we bring him back, then we have to pay him. If not, it doesn't change the money we have available. When people say we have 30 million in cap space, Ware has no bearing on that.

Also, he took a pay cut this year so he wasn't making 10 million anyway

dogfish
01-01-2017, 11:18 PM
they just announced on the team site that our first round draft slot is now locked in as #20, so that pick potentially will be a part of this puzzle. . . and we'll have extra picks next year, as well. . . will be interesting to see if any changes/additions are made to the front office or scouting staff. . . regardless of who gets hired as coach, we need to take advantage of the halfway decent position and extra picks, and hit on some selections beyond the first round, or finding special teams guys late. . . it will be nice to have free agent dollars to spend for a change, but you can't count on building that way every season. . . it's critical to have a strong draft and re-stock with some cheaper talent for future years. . . especially with our QB situation still unsettled, and all the other teams in the division gaining strength. . .

big off-season in BroncoLand. . .

weazel
01-02-2017, 02:38 AM
Lighter fluid and a match

Jaded
01-02-2017, 04:01 AM
I was wondering your position on that subject.

Meh, I like Siemian and Lynch. I just like to troll.

vettesplus
01-02-2017, 07:13 PM
qb....

Freyaka
01-03-2017, 10:58 AM
qb....

Elway says he's not concerned about the QB's on our roster. I'm not either...