Is the recent NFL rule change to chop blocking causing the Broncos Zone Scheme to fail?

[roomemp]

Was thinking about this last night. I wonder, in addition to having average to below average O lineman, the recent rule change to chop blocking is hindering the Zone Scheme from fully working.

In the past, especially under Shanny, the Broncos also had some teams with below average lineman, but the Broncos were still able to run the ball okay.

Has this rule change taken a major element out of the scheme causing it to fail itself? Will Kubes need to adopt a new scheme in the offseason to adjust?

See below article on the rule change itself:

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/3/23/11288894/nfl-rules-changes-chop-blocks-cut-blocks-legal-illegal-explanation

[elsid13]

I think it has more to do with the failure to get their feet and butts in gear to make the blocks then the rules.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think it has more to do with the failure to get their feet and butts in gear to make the blocks then the rules.

That and just flat out letting defenders get into the backfield untouched

[OrangeHoof]

The running game was still passable while Anderson was playing. Can't say it's all on the rule change.

[Jsteve01]

Yes and no. It's affected our ability to run zone as we did previously, but there are many of us that have stated for years that we can't continue to just expect to find Nalen's in the late rounds. We are in the bottom ten percent in the league in dollars dedicated to our O line and it shows on the field. We can make it about effort and scheme but I really believe that ultimately it's about talent. The one area where John has consistently missed in building a roster is O line and this goes back to the John Fox regime.

[elsid13]

Listening to Stink this morning, it pretty clear that Paradis's injury is also a big factor in the poor play.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Listening to Stink this morning, it pretty clear that Paradis's injury is also a big factor in the poor play.

Because of the lack of practice time they are not all on the same page?

[elsid13]

Because of the lack of practice time they are not all on the same page?

That and his injury is effecting his play. He can not make the blocks which causes problems for the guards on both sides.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

That and his injury is effecting his play. He can not make the blocks which causes problems for the guards on both sides.

Yeah, that can cause a problem. What really concerns me is when I see Garcia turn to his right, not block anyone and let someone run right by him on his left.

[Poet]

Yeah, that can cause a problem. What really concerns me is when I see Garcia turn to his right, not block anyone and let someone run right by him on his left.

This is bad coaching. We have an offensive guru as a HC/playcaller who was supposed to fix the running game. Yet we have Garcia remixing the play.


Lord forgive me but he tried to kill me - TS after he stabbed Garcia, AKA, the assassin.

[BroncoJoe]

It's a confusing rule, but supposidly it doesn't really affect a zone blocking scheme.


First of all, if your team runs a zone-blocking scheme, there's no immediate reason to start panicking. Just to make it clear, cut blocks in one-on-one blocking situations remain legal, but the rule change that eliminates chop blocks will certainly have an effect on line play going forward. Furthermore, the change will likely create a little more ambiguity for referees, and that gray area could be something to watch this upcoming season.

So let's lay it all out.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/3/23/11288894/nfl-rules-changes-chop-blocks-cut-blocks-legal-illegal-explanation

[Valar Morghulis]

I think we romanticize cj Anderson's production.

[Poet]

I think we romanticize cj Anderson's production.

I don't think we do. He could run decent with that line, catch, and block. He's an all around back in a league filled with two back systems. It's fair to ask how he would do it he played on a good line, or even a great one. One of the biggest issues I have on the team is that while C.J. is quite good, he's not a world beater. So why is it that he can run with the line and no one else can? It's like the only position we are allowed to have two or more good players at = WR. It's not that hard to develop running backs. Sheesh.

If you take my two statements in tandem I'm saying = CJ is an above average player. I'm just being grumpy.

[Valar Morghulis]

I don't think we do. He could run decent with that line, catch, and block. He's an all around back in a league filled with two back systems. It's fair to ask how he would do it he played on a good line, or even a great one. One of the biggest issues I have on the team is that while C.J. is quite good, he's not a world beater. So why is it that he can run with the line and no one else can? It's like the only position we are allowed to have two or more good players at = WR. It's not that hard to develop running backs. Sheesh. If you take my two statements in tandem I'm saying = CJ is an above average player. I'm just being grumpy.

Agreed, but I think we view his production this season through rose tinted glasses. If he never got hurt, people would be calling for Booker to get more carries

[Poet]

Agreed, but I think we view his production this season through rose tinted glasses. If he never got hurt, people would be calling for Booker to get more carries

Well, is it not possible that those calls could be correct for CJA to be spelled? Or, is it possible that those calls being called for wouldn't change the actual value of CJA?

I don't know these things. I'm just a dog that barks.

[Valar Morghulis]

Well, is it not possible that those calls could be correct for CJA to be spelled? Or, is it possible that those calls being called for wouldn't change the actual value of CJA? I don't know these things. I'm just a dog that barks.

Start purring bitch

[Poet]

Start purring bitch

Woof

[elsid13]

BTW I think this will be the new line coach if the decide to go in that direction. He was Kubes guy in Houston - Benton

http://www.jaguars.com/team/coaches/John-Benton/d38e5788-3c02-42d2-a781-e36f2dca2fbb

[Spiritguy]

If the chop block were the issue all teams that use zone running would have a problem. I know a lot of you guys don't like MHR but they have a great tape breakdown of our zone blocking (or lack of) and Dallas doing the same basic plays. Dallas is very successful and we? Well, as we all know, not so much. The problem is lack of execution! Perhaps a big dose of coaching too.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2016/12/13/13933410/zone-blocking-broncos-cowboys

[Joel]

Since DENVER DOESN'T CHOP BLOCK (and NEVER HAS,) no.

[GEM]

I think we romanticize cj Anderson's production.

I think this undervalues Anderson. That guy is the leader on offense that we are missing. It's been stated that he will tell the line, the qb and any other offensive player they are missing their jobs, he learned this from Manning. Siemian is REALLY missing having Anderson to help him with the blitzer and a lot of other things that Anderson was able to call out that isn't being done in his absence.

[Joel]

BTW I think this will be the new line coach if the decide to go in that direction. He was Kubes guy in Houston - Benton

http://www.jaguars.com/team/coaches/John-Benton/d38e5788-3c02-42d2-a781-e36f2dca2fbbYeah, Jaded was ruminating about that when we played Jax; frankly, I think the HEAD line coach Benton worked under in Houston (i.e. Frank Pollack) would be better, but he's currently running Dallas' line, so a lateral move from arguably the leagues best unit (though the Raiders line he ran in 2012 might dispute that) is unlikely.

The key thing is that Barone's spent SEVEN SEASONS going back and forth from coaching our lines to coaching our TEs (i.e. Julius "Can't Block the Sun out of His Eyes" Thomas) and BOTH units have been consistently AWFUL. That Barone's managed to stay employed through THREE straight Denver HCs AND three straight Denver GMs—despite his players woefully underperforming even when former All Pros—is a testament more to his political ability than his coaching ability.

[Hawgdriver]

I think this undervalues Anderson. That guy is the leader on offense that we are missing. It's been stated that he will tell the line, the qb and any other offensive player they are missing their jobs, he learned this from Manning. Siemian is REALLY missing having Anderson to help him with the blitzer and a lot of other things that Anderson was able to call out that isn't being done in his absence.

We miss his leadership badly on passing downs, but I'm with Dave on his production in the run game. He has been excellent at times, but before he was hurt Booker seemed the better back.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

This is bad coaching. We have an offensive guru as a HC/playcaller who was supposed to fix the running game. Yet we have Garcia remixing the play.


Lord forgive me but he tried to kill me - TS after he stabbed Garcia, AKA, the assassin.

Garcia, "the assassin" 😆

[Simple Jaded]

No, cut blocks are still legal.

Do people realize that the Broncos aren't the only team that runs zone?

[Simple Jaded]

Yeah, Jaded was ruminating about that when we played Jax; frankly, I think the HEAD line coach Benton worked under in Houston (i.e. Frank Pollack) would be better, but he's currently running Dallas' line, so a lateral move from arguably the leagues best unit (though the Raiders line he ran in 2012 might dispute that) is unlikely.

The key thing is that Barone's spent SEVEN SEASONS going back and forth from coaching our lines to coaching our TEs (i.e. Julius "Can't Block the Sun out of His Eyes" Thomas) and BOTH units have been consistently AWFUL. That Barone's managed to stay employed through THREE straight Denver HCs AND three straight Denver GMs—despite his players woefully underperforming even when former All Pros—is a testament more to his political ability than his coaching ability.

Quit arguing with elcid, clearly this is a very intelligent and insightful person.

[Simple Jaded]

Because of the lack of practice time they are not all on the same page?

Nalen said Paradis looks like he's playing with polio, I laughed.

[Valar Morghulis]

We miss his leadership badly on passing downs, but I'm with Dave on his production in the run game. He has been excellent at times, but before he was hurt Booker seemed the better back.

Yeah, what he said.

[Jsteve01]

BTW I think this will be the new line coach if the decide to go in that direction. He was Kubes guy in Houston - Benton

http://www.jaguars.com/team/coaches/John-Benton/d38e5788-3c02-42d2-a781-e36f2dca2fbb

I don't think they're letting Barone go. Kubes as Shanny is overly loyal

[Poet]

Yeah, what he said.

CJA was better as a receiver, and as a blocker. He also was averaging 4.0 YPC with this line. Booker has not averaged 4.0 YPC in any game with significant carries. http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/devontae-booker/1157bc00-00f8-48a8-89c9-bbeea545909e/

In fact, the more he runs, he worse he does.

As such, I must respectfully disagree.

[elsid13]

I don't think they're letting Barone go. Kubes as Shanny is overly loyal

They can always move him to other coaching position

[Rick]

I would assume Atlanta runs a similar scheme with Kyle over there, doesn't seem to be hampering them in anyway.

[dogfish]

Agreed, but I think we view his production this season through rose tinted glasses. If he never got hurt, people would be calling for Booker to get more carries


CJA was better as a receiver, and as a blocker. He also was averaging 4.0 YPC with this line. Booker has not averaged 4.0 YPC in any game with significant carries. http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/devontae-booker/1157bc00-00f8-48a8-89c9-bbeea545909e/

In fact, the more he runs, he worse he does.

As such, I must respectfully disagree.

exactly. . . CJ is a career 4.6 YPC runner, who was averaging 4.0 even behind this disaster of a line. . . booker has averaged 3.4, and looks like complete hot garbage. . . i can't imagine anyone calling for him to get ANY carries right now, let alone more-- that kid is totally lost in the woods, he doesn't know his left from his right. . . i don't know if he's hurt, overwhelmed or both, but forsett is clearly the far more competent option at the moment. . . since the bye week, booker has carried 51 times for 132 yards-- that is 2.6 YPC. . .

[Valar Morghulis]

You all seem to be missing my point.

Booker is hot garbage right now

CJ is better. Fact.

But we seem to be viewing cj and his post injury form as TD-esque. It wasn't.

[GEM]

You all seem to be missing my point.

Booker is hot garbage right now

CJ is better. Fact.

But we seem to be viewing cj and his post injury form as TD-esque. It wasn't.

I can't think of many backs that are TD-esque, much less any that are on this roster. I can't think of any posters here that would even attempt to put CJ and TD in the same sentence, other than the one I just typed. :laugh: He's the best we have on this roster and he's better than a quite a few of the rb's in the league. :shrugs:

[Jsteve01]

Booker has looked hesitant and slow to the hole. Now some of that may be getting punched in the mouth every carry and typically behind the line. CJ is used to our horrid o line play by now. But the beautiful thing about such glaring deficiencies is that it will force John's hand just like the super bowl debacle did. Even the passing fan can tell you our O line is horrid.

[Buff]

Booker has looked hesitant and slow to the hole. Now some of that may be getting punched in the mouth every carry and typically behind the line. CJ is used to our horrid o line play by now. But the beautiful thing about such glaring deficiencies is that it will force John's hand just like the super bowl debacle did. Even the passing fan can tell you our O line is horrid.

I don't think that's an accurate diagnosis. To the contrary, I think he hits the hole at 100mph but has no vision and no idea what to do if and when he gets to the 2nd level. I don't think his problem is not running hard enough - it's lacking the ability to make guys miss or the patience to let any blocks develop (to the extent that our o-line actually blocks anyone).

[Jsteve01]

When you get punched in the mouth behind the l.o.s. enough you will get jumpy, but I don't see him running like KNowshon who drove me crazy with his lack of patience early in his career.

[Simple Jaded]

This team misses CJ Anderson so much it's painful...reminds me of when Terrell Davis went down back in '99. It's uncanny.

[dogfish]

This team misses CJ Anderson so much it's painful...reminds me of when Terrell Davis went down back in '99. It's uncanny.

hah! take that, dave, ya wanker. . . no one HAD actually compared CJ to TD, but you had to go and poke the bear. . .

[elsid13]

I miss TD, OG, Anderson, droughens days

[atwater27]

Was thinking about this last night. I wonder, in addition to having average to below average O lineman, the recent rule change to chop blocking is hindering the Zone Scheme from fully working.

In the past, especially under Shanny, the Broncos also had some teams with below average lineman, but the Broncos were still able to run the ball okay.

Has this rule change taken a major element out of the scheme causing it to fail itself? Will Kubes need to adopt a new scheme in the offseason to adjust?

See below article on the rule change itself:

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/3/23/11288894/nfl-rules-changes-chop-blocks-cut-blocks-legal-illegal-explanation
This is a spot on assessment. I remember hearing about this rule change and realizing that it could dreadfully affect the Kubiak style of offense.

[Joel]

They can always move him to other coaching position
Been trying that for SEVEN YEARS:




Denver Broncos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos), Offensive Line (2015–present)
Denver Broncos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos), Tight Ends (2011–14)
Denver Broncos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos), Offensive Line (2010)
Denver Broncos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Broncos), Tight Ends (2009)




That's ever since HC/GM Josh McDaniels hired him: Throughout the EFX and into the Elway/Kubiak era, so KUBIAKS loyalty to Barone's not the issue. But at some point we must accept that flat tire's NEVER improved the ride, no matter HOW many times we've rotated it. In Barones entire Denver tenure, the ONLY lineman or TE of note has been Julius Thomas, a "puffed up" WR hardly known for elite blocking: DT's a better TE.

He's the last vestige of the failed McDumbass regime, and the sole obvious difference between the great Kubiak/Dennison lines in Denver, Houston and Baltimore versus the terrible Denver line now. A Denver line that was terrible long before Kubiak and Dennisons return, but not before Barones arrival. Do the math.

[Joel]

I would assume Atlanta runs a similar scheme with Kyle over there, doesn't seem to be hampering them in anyway.
Similar philosophy, radically different drafting/FA signings: Elway rejected the price for Joe Thomas, but the Falcons are glad to have former 1st round pick Alex Mack, and have another 1st rounder at LT, with a couple 2nd round Gs and a RT who was only an UDFA because he'd only played a single year of college ball before going pro. Contrast that with Denver taking starting OTs where Atlanta takes starting Gs, and Gs where other teams take backup RBs. THAT is NOT Barones fault, nor Kubiaks, nor Dennisons, and certainly not the Competition Committees.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

This team misses CJ Anderson so much it's painful...reminds me of when Terrell Davis went down back in '99. It's uncanny.

Uncanny is synonymous with funny. None of this makes me laugh.

[Poet]

You all seem to be missing my point.

Booker is hot garbage right now

CJ is better. Fact.

But we seem to be viewing cj and his post injury form as TD-esque. It wasn't.

No....we understand your point....it just doesn't really exist. No one views it as the guy being a top five back. We view it as a guy who can find the scant amount of holes and get through them, and who can actually break tackles. We view him as a guy who can block and catch, and who therefore puts pressure on the actual defense. He actually serves as one of the reasons the whole 'the line is bad so nothing can be done and ergo blah blah' line of bullshit is such bullshit because you CAN do things on the offense with that line. Just not with that QB and the rest of our RBs...who look to be dookie.

[Poet]

The irony: blaming Elway for building a team that won the SB with a HC who did nothing to help win the SB because of the way the team is built. Then give that HC, who was supposed to be a guru and credited with fixing lines can't do it, because he's probably overrated on that front, and somehow it's not his fault after two years, multiple players, etc. Especially since when said HC's only real rebuttal to 'you sort of stood here when Phillips did his thing was 'well he hired him' but the line coach who gets a lot of the blame then...is employed...by the...HC...

The irony strikes back: An old man with only his brain and his Omaha's could mask the line's weaknesses with his football savvy....the OC/HC can't...

The fact that the Kubiakites are now resorting to blaming Elway shows how stupid their position is.

[Simple Jaded]

Uncanny is synonymous with funny. None of this makes me laugh.

Have you tried reading it in a funny voice?

[Poet]

Have you tried reading it in a funny voice?

The stylegod is back.

+5,000 style points.

[Valar Morghulis]

No....we understand your point....it just doesn't really exist. No one views it as the guy being a top five back. We view it as a guy who can find the scant amount of holes and get through them, and who can actually break tackles. We view him as a guy who can block and catch, and who therefore puts pressure on the actual defense. He actually serves as one of the reasons the whole 'the line is bad so nothing can be done and ergo blah blah' line of bullshit is such bullshit because you CAN do things on the offense with that line. Just not with that QB and the rest of our RBs...who look to be dookie.

Ah cool. We interpret the love for cj differently then

[Poet]

Ah cool. We interpret the love for cj differently then

No. You're wrong and I hate you. Forever.

[Valar Morghulis]

No. You're wrong and I hate you. Forever.

Hate is a wasteful emotion that means nothing on your death bed

[Poet]

Hate is a wasteful emotion that means nothing on your death bed

I have a pretty good response to that, but meh. I'm just a barking dog.

[Valar Morghulis]

I have a pretty good response to that, but meh. I'm just a barking dog.

Don't be like that. ******* respond you ****.

[Poet]

Don't be like that. ******* respond you ****.

Nope. I'm a changed man.

[Valar Morghulis]

That's like a school kid saying "I know the answer but I am not telling you"

[Poet]

That's like a school kid saying "I know the answer but I am not telling you"

:spider:

[Joel]

The irony: blaming Elway for building a team that won the SB with a HC who did nothing to help win the SB because of the way the team is built. Then give that HC, who was supposed to be a guru and credited with fixing lines can't do it, because he's probably overrated on that front, and somehow it's not his fault after two years, multiple players, etc. Especially since when said HC's only real rebuttal to 'you sort of stood here when Phillips did his thing was 'well he hired him' but the line coach who gets a lot of the blame then...is employed...by the...HC...

The irony strikes back: An old man with only his brain and his Omaha's could mask the line's weaknesses with his football savvy....the OC/HC can't...

The fact that the Kubiakites are now resorting to blaming Elway shows how stupid their position is.
Except that old man COULDN'T mask that lines weaknesses, else they wouldn't have become the league-wide laughing stock Kubiak AND DENNISON were brought into fix. Too bad hiring them can't magically convince Elway to draft an OT higher than 59th or a G higher than 95th: If nothing's changed, NOTHING'S CHANGED.

Also and once again, Kubiak was NOT "brought into fix the line," because HE'S NEVER BEEN A LINE COACH. He's been an OC and HC, so the offensive line was ONE of his MANY responsibilities, but his position coach resume is limited to QBs and RBs, and THAT'S the positional experience most relevant to his hiring. Manning didn't need the help, but Oz, Ball, CJ and Hillman definitely did (which just underscores Oz' idiocy/greed, but oh, well.) DENNISON was supposed to fix the line; he just can't turn hamburger into filet mignon any more than Kubiak could with Plummer, Schaub and TJ Yates. If you want to talk about Kubiaks position coach resume:

Every starting QB Kubiak's EVER had made (at least) one Pro Bowl—THREE are first ballot HoFers (though Manning didn't need Kubiak to get there.)

[Poet]

Except that old man COULDN'T mask that lines weaknesses, else they wouldn't have become the league-wide laughing stock Kubiak AND DENNISON were brought into fix. Too bad hiring them can't magically convince Elway to draft an OT higher than 59th or a G higher than 95th: If nothing's changed, NOTHING'S CHANGED.

Also and once again, Kubiak was NOT "brought into fix the line," because HE'S NEVER BEEN A LINE COACH. He's been an OC and HC, so the offensive line was ONE of his MANY responsibilities, but his position coach resume is limited to QBs and RBs, and THAT'S the positional experience most relevant to his hiring. Manning didn't need the help, but Oz, Ball, CJ and Hillman definitely did (which just underscores Oz' idiocy/greed, but oh, well.) DENNISON was supposed to fix the line; he just can't turn hamburger into filet mignon any more than Kubiak could with Plummer, Schaub and TJ Yates. If you want to talk about Kubiaks position coach resume:

Every starting QB Kubiak's EVER had made (at least) one Pro Bowl—THREE are first ballot HoFers (though Manning didn't need Kubiak to get there.)

Except for the most part he did. He even did it in the playoffs, Joel. He did it when we lost to the Ravens. He did it the entire season when we lost to the Colts. He did it when we beat the Panthers. When we knew we had a shit line. PFM, a QUARTERBACK, is a better OC and line fixer than our HEAD COACH! That's not good, Joel.

Okung was a first round draft pick. Stephenson was decent for the Chiefs. Yet they both regressed with Kubiak. As far as draft picks go, if all it takes is just high round draft picks, then if we did that how would Kubiak be deserving of credit? I mean if you just draft them at high rounds they'll pan out, right? No, that's not the case. And the way Elway has drafted has made us a strong team for a long time. That defense has carried the team. The rest of the team, i.e. Kubiak's domain, has done shit. It's contributed almost nothing. That's not acceptable.

Schaub was a fine QB under Kubiak. You want to give Kubiak all of the credit for him and then take no one the blame for that implosion, which is always enjoyable to rehash. He certainly gets no credit for Manning.

The people who heralded Kubiak as an offensive guru and offensive line guy are now struggling to figure out how to give him no blame for the shitty line. But just remember, if Elway drafts a bunch of offensive lineman, Kubiak doesn't get any credit for an improved line. That's literally your logic at work.

[Joel]

Except for the most part he did. He even did it in the playoffs, Joel. He did it when we lost to the Ravens.
No, he didn't: He PUBLICLY SAID he AUDIBLED TO THE RUNS AT THE END OF REGULATION to run out the clock, but since our "best" G was a guy who'd been playing on a jagged piece of shredded metal in his foot for a solid MONTH because we had NO ONE ELSE, we couldn't run out the clock. And how'd that game end? Oh, yeah: Manning was pressured into an easy Int deep in our own territory to set up an easy Ravens FG. "Mask" or "expose"?


He did it the entire season when we lost to the Colts.
The entire season we lost to the Colts, no national media coverage of the Broncos was complete without an in depth opening discussion of how our offensive line was SO awful a team that SHATTERED every passing record the previous season would be lucky to win ANY playoff games with its hobbling QB. Which, of course, we didn't, hence Fox and Co. were out and Kubiak and Co. were in. Unless you were deaf, blind and living in a cave under a rock, EVEN Manning couldn't "mask" jack.


He did it when we beat the Panthers. When we knew we had a shit line.
No, he didn't: The WHOLE LEAGUE knew we had a shit line and had for TWO SOLID YEARS (that's not exactly "masking.") Just as everyone knew how to easily and very successfully exploit it; Hell, he threw an Int to a DEFENSIVE LINEMAN.


PFM, a QUARTERBACK, is a better OC and line fixer than our HEAD COACH! That's not good, Joel.
It's not good, but also not TRUE, so no biggy. ;)


Okung was a first round draft pick.
"Was" is a big word. Clady WAS an All Pro, as was Evan Mathis, but by the time Kubiak got them they were broken down has beens; evidently Okung's just the latter. Vasquez was a Pro Bowler IN Denver—but SOMEONE decided we didn't need a Pro Bowl lineman badly enough to spend $6M on him, so cut him and replaced him with Schofield/Sambrailo. Think about that: Someone decided THIS line could afford to save money by replacing a PRO BOWLER with Schofield/Sambrailo.

Someone who's NOT Gary Kubiak (nor Rick Dennison.)


Stephenson was decent for the Chiefs.

No, he wasn't. Stephenson was KCs #4 OT until they lost two better ones to FA and made him RT; one thought that struck me midway through tonights game was Hmm, the #71 they picked up as a starting RT in FA is WAY better than the #71 we picked up FROM them to be our starting RT; guess that's why he was available.


Yet they both regressed with Kubiak.
No, Okung regressed BEFORE Kubiak (else Seattle wouldn't have released him) and Stephenson was never great to begin (else he wouldn't have been behind Geoff Schwartz and Jon Asomoah on the depth chart, nor released and replaced by Geoffs brother Mitchell Schwartz.)


As far as draft picks go, if all it takes is just high round draft picks, then if we did that how would Kubiak be deserving of credit? I mean if you just draft them at high rounds they'll pan out, right? No, that's not the case.
Never said it was: It's NECESSARY but not SUFFICIENT. As all positions: WHEREVER drafted, a player must have talent, brains, work ethic and coaching to be great. But NFL scouts make their living identifying who does/n't have what it takes, there are 32 groups of them, and demand far exceeds supply at premium positions: You can't wait for leftover OTs 31 other scouting teams rejected TWO OR THREE TIMES yet expect to find many diamonds in the rough. It's panning for gold in a slag heap: You may find an occasional nugget, but not nearly often enough to break even, much less come out ahead of the competition.


And the way Elway has drafted has made us a strong team for a long time. That defense has carried the team. The rest of the team, i.e. Kubiak's domain, has done shit. It's contributed almost nothing. That's not acceptable.
So Elway made us great by IGNORING THE OFFENSIVE LINE FOR FIVE YEARS, but guy we hired LAST year is the reason it STILL sucks. That's contradictory "logic": If Elways priorities and decisions were so flawlessly perfect we would've won a SB without Kubiak, Dennison and Wade, so they wouldn't be here to take undeserved blame for its failures now.


Schaub was a fine QB under Kubiak. You want to give Kubiak all of the credit for him and then take no one the blame for that implosion, which is always enjoyable to rehash. He certainly gets no credit for Manning.
Schaub was a GARBAGE QB his WHOLE CAREER: He just had his BEST YEARS under Kubiak—just like Steve Young, Jake Plummer, TJ Yates, Case Keenum and now Trevor Siemian. Elway likely would've too if he'd been as young when Kubiak was OC as when Kubiak was his backup, but even HE had his most SUCCESSFUL seasons and ONLY SB MVP under Kubiak. EVERY STARTING QB KUBIAK'S HAD MADE AT LEAST ONE PRO BOWL. No, I don't give Kubiak any credit for Manning, obviously; I outright said so just a few minutes ago in another thread.

Yet if Schaub had been anything but a bum before Kubiak got him Kubiak never WOULD'VE gotten him: Schaub would've stayed in Atlanta and led them to glory when Vicks dogfighting was discovered. Instead he went to Houston and, as early as 2011, I predicted he'd get Kubiak fired unless replaced; when O'Brien made that impossible by restricting Kubiak to a 7th round alternative (i.e. Yates) one year and a UDFA (i.e. Keenum) the next, the inevitable unfolded.

Matt Schaub was so "great" under Kubiak that he accomplished as much as a rookie 7th round TJ Yates BUT NEEDED AN EXTRA YEAR TO DO IT!


The people who heralded Kubiak as an offensive guru and offensive line guy are now struggling to figure out how to give him no blame for the shitty line. But just remember, if Elway drafts a bunch of offensive lineman, Kubiak doesn't get any credit for an improved line. That's literally your logic at work.
No, it's not, because coaching's still required just as much as TALENT. By YOUR logic Kubiak's a stylegod for making a 7th round sophomore QB who'd NEVER PLAYED A SNAP into a QB with a respectable 88 passer rating. You're grossly oversimplifying, just as when you say the people who wanted Kubiak because of his record as HC, OC and RB/QB coach said he'd fix the LINE, even though he's NEVER BEEN A LINE COACH. DENNISON is the line coach who gave us Pro Bowlers like Duane Brown and Chris Myers (who also STARTED under Kubiak and Dennison in Denver; pity we couldn't keep him.)

[Poet]

I think Joel is actually Kubiak. Joel, you're a real bright guy. There's a reason why your normal strong arguments aren't actually appearing here. You can't duck accountability if you're the HC -especially when the area is the expertise- on an entire side of the ball.

I'm never going to change your mind. You will never change my mind. I will gladly ignore you about Kubiak and in return you can ignore me about Kubiak.

[Valar Morghulis]

I'm never going to change your mind. You will never change my mind. I will gladly ignore you about Kubiak and in return you can ignore me about Kubiak.

This is a thing of beauty.

[Poet]

This is a thing of beauty.

I am now going to live up to it, regardless of Joel's response.

[Valar Morghulis]

I am now going to live up to it, regardless of Joel's response.

I'm proud of you.

[Joel]

I think Joel is actually Kubiak. Joel, you're a real bright guy. There's a reason why your normal strong arguments aren't actually appearing here. You can't duck accountability if you're the HC -especially when the area is the expertise- on an entire side of the ball.

I'm never going to change your mind. You will never change my mind. I will gladly ignore you about Kubiak and in return you can ignore me about Kubiak.
GARY KUBIAK HAS NEVER BEEN AN OFFENSIVE LINE COACH IN HIS ENTIRE LIFE: So how is it an "area of expertise"? QBs and RBs, sure; he's coached both those positions, and both his resume and those of his MANY Pro Bowl QBs and RBs (especially the many who didn't belong anywhere near a Pro Bowl) speak for themselves. But offensive line? Only as a SINGLE one of the MANY aspects of an OC and HCs job.

It's not (solely) that I strongly disagree with you, it's that you're not making a logical argument nor presenting any hard evidence. You're debating what you WANT people to have said instead of what they actually DID say. That's a far easier argument to win, but an even less useful one.

[Valar Morghulis]

Don't do it king. It is a pointless venture that will not end in your happiness

[Cugel]

I think it has more to do with the failure to get their feet and butts in gear to make the blocks then the rules.

Basically, this system works in other cities where they have decent OL, like Atlanta, where Kyle Shanahan has the Falcons offense the #2 offense in football.

It doesn't work in Denver because they don't even have mediocre OL and now that Peyton Manning has retired they don't have a veteran QB who can cover up the talent shortcomings around him.

For this system to work, Elway would have to be able to pick talented OL in later rounds, or players released that other teams have overlooked. And he has failed spectacularly at that.

The problem is that the defense now needs work, while the offense is a hot mess.

[Simple Jaded]

The defense is fine, there's answers to the run defense in free agency, right now there's been good run defenders sitting/waiting out there while Denver has been humping the legs of their scrub WR's and schuffling through every whitebread TE on the open market. I think y'all are getting carried away with defensive "issues", they are the backbone of the entire team.

Even Todd Davis is playing better.

The Broncos are down to 4 "healthy" defensive lineman, gee, I wonder if that's a contributing factor.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The defense is fine, there's answers to the run defense in free agency, right now there's been good run defenders sitting/waiting out there while Denver has been humping the legs of their scrub WR's and schuffling through every whitebread TE on the open market. I think y'all are getting carried away with defensive "issues", they are the backbone of the entire team.
The defense will improve next year with the return of Walker and further development of Gotsis. We still need help at LB and depth at DE. We need a NT too because Sly is a FA.

[Cugel]

The defense is fine, there's answers to the run defense in free agency, right now there's been good run defenders sitting/waiting out there while Denver has been humping the legs of their scrub WR's and schuffling through every whitebread TE on the open market. I think y'all are getting carried away with defensive "issues", they are the backbone of the entire team.

Even Todd Davis is playing better.

The Broncos are down to 4 "healthy" defensive lineman, gee, I wonder if that's a contributing factor.

The defense is basically sound. They have some weaknesses in that their DL is weak against the run. Well, presumably Vance Walker will be returning next season so that's a help. They could possibly draft a DE/DT in the draft. Other than that they are OK.

The offense has 3 starters in D.T. and Sanders and C.J. Anderson. The rest are total scrubs who are either replacement level or worse.

[Simple Jaded]

The defense will improve next year with the return of Walker and further development of Gotsis. We still need help at LB and depth at DE. We need a NT too because Sly is a FA.

Completely agreed. There's some nice NT options in FA, Poe may be a pipe dream but Chris Baker from Washington is a fine player. Keeping Williams at a lower salary was always an option, but I think it's fair to wonder if he's got motivation issue. Walker, Wolfe, Gotsis, Crick and Calais Campbell would be tits if they didn't want to use draft picks on improving there.

Unfortunately I don't think they do much, if anything, at ILB but OLB is always an option with this regime imo.

But I think some are making too much of defensive issues, they're completely and totally fixable.

This team has one issue and it runs deep.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Completely agreed. There's some nice NT options in FA, Poe may be a pipe dream but Chris Baker from Washington is a fine player. Keeping Williams at a lower salary was always an option, but I think it's fair to wonder if he's got motivation issue. Walker, Wolfe, Gotsis, Crick and Calais Campbell would be tits if they didn't want to use draft picks on improving there.

Unfortunately I don't think they do much, if anything, at ILB but OLB is always an option with this regime imo.

But I think some are making too much of defensive issues, they're completely and totally fixable.

This team has one issue and it runs deep.

I believe Baker would love to come back to Denver. Didn't he come to a Broncos game wearing a jersey after he had been picked up by Washington?

[Simple Jaded]

I believe Baker would love to come back to Denver. Didn't he come to a Broncos game wearing a jersey after he had been picked up by Washington?

Yeah but iirc it was a Potroast jersey and they're childhood buddies, but still there's something there.

[Simple Jaded]

I'm not kidding; sign Williams, Potroast and Baker, probably get all three for what Poe is going to get.

They keep insisting on bringing back shit WR's (Norwood and Caldwell) that have contributed far less than Terrence Knighton has.

[Valar Morghulis]

I'm not kidding; sign Williams, Potroast and Baker, probably get all three for what Poe is going to get. They keep insisting on bringing back shit WR's (Norwood and Caldwell) that have contributed far less than Terrence Knighton has.

Put roast will be a fat ******* these days. Couldn't stay in shape when he was paid to, no chance he looked after himself whilst unemployed.

[Simple Jaded]

Put roast will be a fat ******* these days. Couldn't stay in shape when he was paid to, no chance he looked after himself whilst unemployed.

I need 10 snaps a game from him with Baker and Williams there, he's Sam Adams toward the end of his career. He's still good in waves.

Btw, what'cho got against fat ********?

[Poet]

I need 10 snaps a game from him with Baker and Williams there, he's Sam Adams toward the end of his career. He's still good in waves.

Where are your hashtags?

Sam Adams...man....that guy was a strange player.

[Simple Jaded]

Where are your hashtags?

Sam Adams...man....that guy was a strange player.

#fatassholelivesmatter.

[Poet]

#fatassholelivesmatter.

That was actually....pretty good.

Now keep stylin'.

[dogfish]

potroast, still? keep hope alive, boys. . .

[Simple Jaded]

potroast, still? keep hope alive, boys. . .

Maybe he just needs a little support and encouragement.

[dogfish]

Maybe he just needs a little support and encouragement.

with all the safe spaces they've had to create for O-linemen, i'm afraid dove valley is out of room for that type of facility. . .

[sneakers]

It is a stupid ass rule change.

How often did you see defensive linemen carted off the field with knee injuries?

All you are going to see now is the two lines smash their helmets into each other even more

[sneakers]

I need 10 snaps a game from him with Baker and Williams there, he's Sam Adams toward the end of his career. He's still good in waves.

Btw, what'cho got against fat ********?

my solution to broncos interior defensive line woes were to put a walrus in there and spray paint a uniform on him