The Good and the Bad: Week 13

[BroncoWave]

I missed some chunks of this game and wasn't paying the closest of attention to what I did see, so I won't be able to add much this week, but here goes:

Good:

The defense, specifically CHJ, Roby, and Von for their forced turnovers. They are back to saving games for us, which is nice.

Booker. It didn't look like he had the best of stats, but that TD run was awesome. That was one of the toughest runs I have seen a Broncos RB make in a long time.

Bad:

The rest of the offense. I'm rooting for Lynch, but the guy ain't ready yet. And the line is still trash.

Again, short thread, so please fill in anything I missed.

[Davii]

Doesn't look like you missed much.

Good: win. Defense looked good.

Bad: Oline is just weak. Lynch looked better than the ATL game but remains a project with a long way to go.

[underrated29]

Let me help you out with another good:

Kapri Bibbs!

[Lynch12]

The good.

Defense

Lynch.

The bad.

Not too much bad other than the o line still struggling but what's new?

I think this was a perfect Broncos style game on the road,, tough, gritty, not alot of excitement but a W, the key was no turnovers though, if we protect he ball were going to be in good shape most the time.

[Lynch12]

Let me help you out with another good:

Kapri Bibbs!

Agreed, dude ran very well today.

[Joel]

Booker. It didn't look like he had the best of stats, but that TD run was awesome. That was one of the toughest runs I have seen a Broncos RB make in a long time.
That's just the only way to get a 3-4 yd gain in Denver: In a month we'll be talking about Bookers "glass vaj," just like CJ, Ball, Moreno and McGahee. And probably criticizing him for "indecisiveness" and "dancing around." Just like Ball and Moreno. The problem's clear:

Our QB coach just isn't getting our 5th round linemen up to speed (I mean, OBVIOUSLY.)

[I Eat Staples]

The good.

Defense

Lynch.

The bad.

Not too much bad other than the o line still struggling but what's new?

I think this was a perfect Broncos style game on the road,, tough, gritty, not alot of excitement but a W, the key was no turnovers though, if we protect he ball were going to be in good shape most the time.

The fact you consider Lynch's performance good and criticize Siemian when he plays far better than Lynch did proves that you are a completely blind fanboy.

[DenBronx]

Lynch is not ready. I like the guy but Trevor is the better QB right now. I have a feeling this will go on even until the end of next year unless we sign a veteran FA QB or trade for one. Right now, I am not sure Elway is sold on what he is seeing from our offense, and I mean the WHOLE offense.

Just sucks seeing KC and Oak at the top of the division. It's very depressing.

[Mike]

Maybe I am stuck in a malaise after last week, but I didn't have much to be positive about this game. Defense is still solid, liked seeing the turnovers, Von is the man, I liked Kalif Raymond.

Lynch was disappointing. The guy needs to sit the bench for at least a season and probably the second. I am not saying he is a bust yet, but he clearly isn't ready. Siemian is head and shoulders better and should be the starter going into next season.

Where I am mostly down on the team is Kubiak's offense. It is awful. Three years into it, four different QBs, and it keeps looking worse. His inability to be flexible and play to players strength is a detriment to the offense. Expecting players to adapt to his way just isn't working.

I like Kubiak as a HC, hate him as an OC. I think Elway has to step in and do something. Starting with removing Dennison and Barone. Then hiring a real OC who can bring a better offense to the table. But I doubt Kubiak will go for any of that. Which leaves Elway in a tough situation this off-season.

[VonDoom]

I'm baffled as to why we have no quick pass plays on third and two or three. Screen, slant, RB in the flat. Lynch threw so many slow developing deep (and inaccurate) passes in those spots.

[BroncoJoe]

Maybe I am stuck in a malaise after last week, but I didn't have much to be positive about this game. Defense is still solid, liked seeing the turnovers, Von is the man, I liked Kalif Raymond.

Lynch was disappointing. The guy needs to sit the bench for at least a season and probably the second. I am not saying he is a bust yet, but he clearly isn't ready. Siemian is head and shoulders better and should be the starter going into next season.

Where I am mostly down on the team is Kubiak's offense. It is awful. Three years into it, four different QBs, and it keeps looking worse. His inability to be flexible and play to players strength is a detriment to the offense. Expecting players to adapt to his way just isn't working.

I like Kubiak as a HC, hate him as an OC. I think Elway has to step in and do something. Starting with removing Dennison and Barone. Then hiring a real OC who can bring a better offense to the table. But I doubt Kubiak will go for any of that. Which leaves Elway in a tough situation this off-season.

Comeon man! Maybe it has to do with the players he has been dealt. OC during our SB years, made a new franchise relevant (Texans) and gave a SB winning QB his best season ever (Flacco). Also got a SB win with one of the GOAT's ever, who only had one ring before. We don't exactly have stellar performers at critical positions right now on offense.

[BroncoJoe]

I'm baffled as to why we have no quick pass plays on third and two or three. Screen, slant, RB in the flat. Lynch threw so many slow developing deep (and inaccurate) passes in those spots.

I can agree with this. I think a bit more creativity is warranted, but the Kubiak bashing is getting annoying.

[Joel]

Comeon man! Maybe it has to do with the players he has been dealt. OC during our SB years, made a new franchise relevant (Texans) and gave a SB winning QB his best season ever (Flacco). Also got a SB win with one of the GOAT's ever, who only had one ring before. We don't exactly have stellar performers at critical positions right now on offense.
The sad thing is, we DO have a lot of great players at the so-called "skill" positions, but none of them MATTER as long as the defense is camped out in our backfield.

I do agree with axing Barone: While Kubiak and Dennison were making the expansion Texans into title contenders and rebuilding the Ravens line from rubble, Barone was in Denver running an offensive line every bit as bad then as now. I've really tried not to point fingers, but no less than FOUR former Pro Bowlers have regressed to nothing under his tutelage. The X factor seems pretty clear: When he was in Denver but Kubiak and Dennison weren't, his lines sucked and theirs were great, on two different teams; when they returned to Denver his lines went right on sucking.

And for the love of all that's holy, PLEASE DRAFT AN OFFENSIVE LINEMAN HIGHER THAN 59TH OVERALL. Preferably a G higher than 90-something, too.

[Bronco4ever]

Good:

DT and Sanders got open against a pretty solid secondary.

Bad:

Lynch couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Pretty hard to watch at times.

[VonDoom]

The good - the defense did it's usual work. It helped that we played a bad team and a bad QB, but they were solid against the run (except the QB scramble - shocker) and made plays when they needed to. The Roby pick was a gift, but the Harris pick was just a great job.

Bibbs - probably would have gotten more time, but now he has a high ankle sprain. Looked good in limited time out there.

Riley Dixon - I believe he punted 11 times for 506 yards in this game. Dropped a bunch inside the ten. Ice up that leg, son.

Khalif Raymond - I was worried after that first "return" but he looks shifty and fluid out there. Might actually be a return threat, which we could use.

The bad - Lynch was terrible. The Jags are a good pass defense but we had plenty of opportunities to make plays and just couldn't do it. One big overthrow to Sanders, the underthrown lollipop to a formerly wide open Sanders and the underthrow to DT down the sidelines were the biggest ones I remember. Missing receivers by miles on simple out routes. Get well, Trevor!

Run game in general / run blocking - Booker was bad statistically. Bibbs was good (as I said above) but most other times, we'd run on first down for a yard or two. No rhythm for this offense at all and it starts up front. Pass protection seemed better, at least that's how I remember it.

Injuries - Ray seems fine but Bibbs is hurt, and who knows about Winn or even Marshall. Can't afford to lose depth (I mean, in Winn's case, we only have four other d-linemen on the whole team!) when we're hitting the stretch.

[Simple Jaded]

Let me help you out with another good:

Kapri Bibbs!

I love sore winners.

[Simple Jaded]

I still can't believe that people think this is actually what Kubiak wants his offense to look like and that different plays will make a damn bit of difference.

[spikerman]

I still can't believe that people think this is actually what Kubiak wants his offense to look like and that different plays will make a damn bit of difference.
Of course this isn't what he wants his offense to look like. A Pop Warner coach wouldn't want his offense to look like this. The frustrating thing is that he apparently has no idea how to fix it. A little imagination might help compensate for the lack of talent up front. Continuing to run, and fail, at the same stuff for two years clearly hasn't made the offense effective, so try something else.

[Hawgdriver]

That's just the only way to get a 3-4 yd gain in Denver: In a month we'll be talking about Bookers "glass vaj," just like CJ, Ball, Moreno and McGahee. And probably criticizing him for "indecisiveness" and "dancing around." Just like Ball and Moreno. The problem's clear:

Our QB coach just isn't getting our 5th round linemen up to speed (I mean, OBVIOUSLY.)

I admire your passion about the deficiency of Denver's O-line. But tis what tis.

[Nomad]

The win was good. :)

[Hawgdriver]

I can agree with this. I think a bit more creativity is warranted, but the Kubiak bashing is getting annoying.

Fairly agree. Kubiak singled out "ball placement" as Paxton's issue tonight, and had Paxton been accurate, the game has far different timber. Lynch was off tonight.

[Simple Jaded]

Of course this isn't what he wants his offense to look like. A Pop Warner coach wouldn't want his offense to look like this. The frustrating thing is that he apparently has no idea how to fix it. A little imagination might help compensate for the lack of talent up front. Continuing to run, and fail, at the same stuff for two years clearly hasn't made the offense effective, so try somrthing else.

There's no play imaginable that doesn't require the OL to do their job, though, they try to pass to set up the run and run to set up the pass. The Broncos have also been limited by their QB for three straight seasons.

[Hawgdriver]

Good: Von, Talib, CH Jr., Roby, J Stew.
Bad: Pax (and O-line, ofc, duh)

[Nomad]

Nature of the beast. When things go good the HC is praised, and when things go bad the HC is criticized.

[spikerman]

There's no play imaginable that doesn't require the OL to do their job, though, they try to pass to set up the run and run to set up the pass. The Broncos have also been limited by their QB for three straight seasons.

I mentioned earlier that I was excited to see the play action mis-direction make a comeback today, but the Broncos never seem to run it when it would be most effective. They also don't seem to run it with Siemian. They are supremely predictable. Since Denver can't just line up and beat people offensively they have to do it creatively. It just frustrates me that they don't seem to understand that.

[Joel]

I admire your passion about the deficiency of Denver's O-line. But tis what tis.
Frustrating as Hell's wha' 'tis. :( As are the constant suggestions it's Kubiaks fault because he "has no idea how" to fix it and should "try something else." He's trying what gives a mortally wounded offense its best—ONLY—chance, and the proof of his judgement's that it was good enough to beat ALL of last years top AFC teams (TWICE, in NE*s case) and the SB favorite IN the SB to win a championship of our own.

All he's done after that is start a second-year final-round QB who got his first real action on Opening Day, and still post an 8-4 record in arguably the toughest division in the league. Yes, the D's a huge part of Kubiaks strategy, but that's hardly an indictment of his coaching. Regardless, avoiding screw ups long enough for a great D to win the game isn't as easy as it sounds (ask Camolina how well that worked in the SB.)

I hope Elway's finally seen the light on our linemen, but have hoped that for several years and am fully prepared to remain a voice crying in the wilderness.

[Hawgdriver]

They are supremely predictable.

My complaint.

[I Eat Staples]

The one thing I would get mad at Kubiak for was how we'd always line up under center and run the ball for no gain in short yardage, but the past 2 games he's tried running from the shotgun, play action pass under center, and passing from the shotgun on multiple plays and none of it worked. Our short yardage offense (and our entire offense in general today) is just completely incapable of doing anything.

[silkamilkamonico]

Kubiak was brought in to fix the offense. The offense is worse than it's been since the Tim Tebow days, and even then at least Denver could run the ball. IMHO The worst part about Kubiak is he doesn't know how to adjust throughout the flow of the game. He doesn't help out the struggling oline, and you can see as struggles go the playbook becomes diminished and there's no creativity in a different type of attack. I think there should be a real question on if the guy can still coach/teach offense.

I still think he wasn't a bad option to pick for Head Coach, he lets Wade Phillips do his thing on defense. I think he's very good at managing the ebb and flow of the organization especially through some questionable times with positions. He certainly hasn't helped those positions. Denver still has games where you wonder wtf is going on and why aren't we prepared to play. I would love to see some new direction hired to handle more of the offensive side, I do believe we're going to see this continued dumpster fire next year too.

P.S. Fire Rick Dennison already. That guy does f'n nothing and is a waste of space within the organization.

[silkamilkamonico]

Our short yardage offense (and our entire offense in general today) is just completely incapable of doing anything.

There's no creativity with it. This how illogical our short yard offense is - Kubiak builds an oline built to maneuver and move, and he lines them up in short yardage and plays a power game running the same play every time. It's f'n stupid and illogical. You don't have a power built line. Figure out how to do something else.

[gregbroncs]

The good.

Defense

Lynch.

The bad.

Not too much bad other than the o line still struggling but what's new?

I think this was a perfect Broncos style game on the road,, tough, gritty, not alot of excitement but a W, the key was no turnovers though, if we protect he ball were going to be in good shape most the time.Lynch cannot be classified as good. He missed three wide open receivers down the field. Could have had 2 easy TD's if he doesn't under throw 2 balls by 10 yards each.

[Tned]

Maybe I am stuck in a malaise after last week, but I didn't have much to be positive about this game. Defense is still solid, liked seeing the turnovers, Von is the man, I liked Kalif Raymond.

Lynch was disappointing. The guy needs to sit the bench for at least a season and probably the second. I am not saying he is a bust yet, but he clearly isn't ready. Siemian is head and shoulders better and should be the starter going into next season.

Most scouts/scouting reports said that Lynch was likely a 2-3 year project to become a NFL starter. If the Broncos were Cleveland, then you could maybe let him learn on the field, but it would be ugly.

Lynch under threw every long throw, except for the one where he overthrew Sanders on the right side. He was off target on most throws and but for a couple great catches, like the low one to DT, Lynch would have been down around 50-60 yards. As has been pointed out after DT failed to pull in several low throws far less off target than that, it isn't what DT normally does well.

Can't write Lynch off, because I think you can make an argument he is playing far better as a rookie than many experts would have expected. He had and has VERY steep learning curve due to the offense he played in in Memphis.

[Tned]

The punt team, kicking and receiving was a bright spot and the defense but for a couple drives was very good.

[Simple Jaded]

Kubiak will come out with a jet-sweep-counter-double-reverse-triple-Lindy with an underground jackhammer on 3rd and one...the OL will give up penetration at every gap and the play will go for zero yards...fans will complain about how predictable it was.

All teams have to do is sit in base defense, there isn't a ******* thing they have to worry about because the LOS scrimmage is theirs.

[Hawgdriver]

Kubiak will come out with a jet-sweep-counter-double-reverse-triple-Lindy with an underground jackhammer on 3rd and one...the OL will give up penetration at every gap and the play will go for zero yards...fans will complain about how predictable it was.

All teams have to do is sit in base defense, there isn't a ******* thing they have to worry about because the LOS scrimmage is theirs.

dude has a good ******* point

[Joel]

Kubiak was brought in to fix the offense. The offense is worse than it's been since the Tim Tebow days, and even then at least Denver could run the ball. IMHO The worst part about Kubiak is he doesn't know how to adjust throughout the flow of the game. He doesn't help out the struggling oline, and you can see as struggles go the playbook becomes diminished and there's no creativity in a different type of attack. I think there should be a real question on if the guy can still coach/teach offense.

I still think he wasn't a bad option to pick for Head Coach, he lets Wade Phillips do his thing on defense. I think he's very good at managing the ebb and flow of the organization especially through some questionable times with positions. He certainly hasn't helped those positions. Denver still has games where you wonder wtf is going on and why aren't we prepared to play. I would love to see some new direction hired to handle more of the offensive side, I do believe we're going to see this continued dumpster fire next year too.

P.S. Fire Rick Dennison already. That guy does f'n nothing and is a waste of space within the organization.
Hot take is our coach doesn't put enough thought into the offense; classic internet right there. Let's fire all the coaches who JUST WON A SUPER BOWL THEIR VERY FIRST SEASON. The bums. Not the offensive line and tight ends coach who's been here SEVEN YEARS while his players impossibly managed to get WORSE every year: The new guys who haven't undone his seven years worth of damage in a single season.

I mean, Hell, Elway gave them the 59th overall pick and a bunch of guys picked in the 90s: What kind of idiots could fail to build rubble into a fortress with that?

[Joel]

dude has a good ******* point
Well, he kinda does: Our line imploding at the snap on ANY play call has gotten depressingly predicable. :( Since long before Kubiak and Dennisons return.

[Simple Jaded]

Ever since the Raiders game the biggest lament was "why doesn't Kubiak come out with six OL?", well...they did...and the six OLman promptly gave up a sack to a four man rush.

What do people expect them to do? Six ******* offensive lineman, four man pass rush, four receivers in route, seven defenders in coverage...you'd think Lynch would have all day to scan the field and find that needle in a haystack. Nope, sacked in under 3 seconds. If that doesn't paint a plain enough picture of how we have no idea what we're talking about then I don't know what will.

Every time we complain that they're not using their imagination and doing what other teams do, the Broncos do what we complain that they're not doing and it fails too.

[Poet]

That's just the only way to get a 3-4 yd gain in Denver: In a month we'll be talking about Bookers "glass vaj," just like CJ, Ball, Moreno and McGahee. And probably criticizing him for "indecisiveness" and "dancing around." Just like Ball and Moreno. The problem's clear:

Our QB coach just isn't getting our 5th round linemen up to speed (I mean, OBVIOUSLY.)

No one called McGahee soft. That's fiction. No one was calling CJ soft this year, either. When Manning was here no one had an issue with Moreno's godly season. Stop trying to lay the blame that a HC was supposed to fix elsewhere. Ball was just flagrantly bad, and that's why he's out of the league. He's a bad example to use.

[Poet]

Kubiak will come out with a jet-sweep-counter-double-reverse-triple-Lindy with an underground jackhammer on 3rd and one...the OL will give up penetration at every gap and the play will go for zero yards...fans will complain about how predictable it was.

All teams have to do is sit in base defense, there isn't a ******* thing they have to worry about because the LOS scrimmage is theirs.

He would have to do something creative first before we can agree with this. He could, I don't know, use different short passing plays. Check it out man, there was once this short passing offense called the WCO, and it had all kinds of different route combinations and plays it could use. Even though the premise on just about every play was the same, it was still hard to stop. Check it out even further, sometimes they used this thing called playaction passing. Which, when you run the ball a lot, even if you suck at it, the defense typically has to respect. But it gets even deeper, bro, because sometimes you can call a pitch or run outside the tackles!!!!!!!!111111

Which we did twice in this game, and they worked. Almost as if they should be used a little but more because if they are effective the defense would have to res....p...ect....whoa......

[Joel]

No one called McGahee soft. That's fiction. No one was calling CJ soft this year, either. When Manning was here no one had an issue with Moreno's godly season. Stop trying to lay the blame that a HC was supposed to fix elsewhere. Ball was just flagrantly bad, and that's why he's out of the league. He's a bad example to use.
People have been calling CJ fragile since 2014, and I think silkamilkamonico was actually the one who liked to talk about Morenos "glass vag" all the time; people were so down on Moreno that he probably never would've gotten back into the rotation—if McGahee hadn't GONE ON IR. The year after he led the NFL in yards AFTER CONTACT, in fact, while everyone said, "how can you say our line sucks: We led the NFL in rushing!"

Look a little deeper. Or a lot. Or at least past the personal animus. ;)

[Simple Jaded]

He would have to do something creative first before we can agree with this. He could, I don't know, use different short passing plays. Check it out man, there was once this short passing offense called the WCO, and it had all kinds of different route combinations and plays it could use. Even though the premise on just about every play was the same, it was still hard to stop. Check it out even further, sometimes they used this thing called playaction passing. Which, when you run the ball a lot, even if you suck at it, the defense typically has to respect. But it gets even deeper, bro, because sometimes you can call a pitch or run outside the tackles!!!!!!!!111111

Which we did twice in this game, and they worked. Almost as if they should be used a little but more because if they are effective the defense would have to res....p...ect....whoa......

The Broncos run a WCO and that's been shit on around here too. I'm sorry, teams have zero reason to respect playaction...the defenses are stopping the run with basic 7 man fronts, most times even with just the front four. The Broncos trap on the OL and they block no one...the defenders either stack and shed with the greatest of ease or the lineman don't have any idea who to block. The run zone and the backside defender slams the cutback lanes, that's if the front side defenders don't blow the play up before the RB can find a cutback lane. They run gaps and the DL just uses the OL as human shields until the RB runs up his linemen's asses. They can't reach block, they can't cut block and they can't figure out who to block when they finally do get to the second level.

And because of this the back seven can squat on the quick passes, proof of this can be seen in the first three games when WR screens turned 3 Ints, one of which turned into a Pick 6. The dink and dunk doesn't even work, and even if it did that'd would still drive fans nuts. They're basically left with low percentage/low risk outside bucket throws, which should leave TE's down the seem but there's no Broncos TE's that threaten the seem and no QB with the balls to challenge that part of the defense. They rarely get enough time to run crossing routes.

They literally suck at everything, up to and including playaction.

[spikerman]

People have been calling CJ fragile since 2014, and I think silkamilkamonico was actually the one who liked to talk about Morenos "glass vag" all the time; people were so down on Moreno that he probably never would've gotten back into the rotation—if McGahee hadn't GONE ON IR. The year after he led the NFL in yards AFTER CONTACT, in fact, while everyone said, "how can you say our line sucks: We led the NFL in rushing!"

Look a little deeper. Or a lot. Or at least past the personal animus. ;)
Are you suggesting that the fans' opinion of Moreno would have kept him out? If we have that much power then get Kubes in here asap because a few of us would like to help him with his play calling.

[Poet]

People have been calling CJ fragile since 2014, and I think silkamilkamonico was actually the one who liked to talk about Morenos "glass vag" all the time; people were so down on Moreno that he probably never would've gotten back into the rotation—if McGahee hadn't GONE ON IR. The year after he led the NFL in yards AFTER CONTACT, in fact, while everyone said, "how can you say our line sucks: We led the NFL in rushing!"

Look a little deeper. Or a lot. Or at least past the personal animus. ;)

Which is why I said no one was calling him soft THIS year. No one cares about Silka....I'm not going to take a shot on a guy who isn't here to defend himself but I will say not too many people flock to his posts for insight. Oh, there were some years where you claimed that the line was total trash when it wasn't.... Also, many years Emmitt Smith led or was up at the front of the line for YAC....and the Cowboys had a great line in those days. That's not the best argument to make, especially when the RB in question is a powerback...

So, I honestly think you should get past your man crush on your OC/HC and get better conclusions.

[Poet]

The Broncos run a WCO and that's been shit on around here too. I'm sorry, teams have zero reason to respect playaction...the defenses are stopping the run with basic 7 man fronts, most times even with just the front four. The Broncos trap on the OL and they block no one...the defenders either stack and shed with the greatest of ease or the lineman don't have any idea who to block. The run zone and the backside defender slams the cutback lanes, that's if the front side defenders don't blow the play up before the RB can find a cutback lane. They run gaps and the DL just uses the OL as human shields until the RB runs up his linemen's asses.

And because of this the back seven can squat on the quick passes, proof of this can be seen in the first three games when WR screens turned 3 Ints, one of which turned into a Pick 6. The dink and dunk doesn't even work, and even if it did that'd would still drive fans nuts. They're basically left with low percentage/low risk outside bucket throws, which should leave TE's down the seem but there's no Broncos TE's that threaten the seem and no QB with the balls to challenge that part of the defense.

They literally suck at everything, up to and including playaction.

I'm sorry, but if you're always running the ball, they have to respect it because if you don't it opens someting else up. It might not open up the game and make it all roses and sunshine, but that's the power of the PA. Oddly enough, in the third game TS went nutso on the Bengals. Because the playcalling exploited the Bengals gameplan....which was to stack the box and dare TS to beat them. That same team with Atkins and Dunlap (two very strong pass rushers) and decent corners. That game showed good playcalling. And we ran decently with CJ early on in the year....

So guys...I hate to break it to you, but it is possible to produce with this offense. And we have a HC who is supposed to be an offensive guru....who is calling the plays....

[chazoe60]

I just posted this in the HD thread but I'll post this here too.

Just watched the quick DVR version of the game and I didn't think Lynch was terrible. He wasn't good but I also saw some positives. TS is markedly better at this point however.

The next observation I made was that Derek Wolfe is an absolute beast and if he doesn't make the probowl this year it's a damn crime.

[Simple Jaded]

The Bengals game was an example of those low percentage/low risk throws paying dividends, but defenses are going to give the
Broncos that all day long knowing they're going to get to the QB more times than not.

[Magnificent Seven]

CJ Anderson is on IR and Bibbs is probably out for the rest of season. RB Justin Forsett is still available. What do you think?

http://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2016/12/04/denver-broncos-need-to-sign-free-agent-rb-justin-forsett/

[Poet]

The Bengals game was an example of those low percentage/low risk throws paying dividends, but defenses are going to give the
Broncos that all day long knowing they're going to get to the QB more times than not.

Low risk? The risk would be high because they have pass rushers and we have an awful line that stops us from doing anything at all.

[Simple Jaded]

Low risk? The risk would be high because they have pass rushers and we have an awful line that stops us from doing anything at all.

Deep outside the numbers passes, back shoulder throws are low percentage and low risk for turnovers. Agreed that every play is high risk for sacks, though.

[Poet]

Deep outside the numbers passes, back shoulder throws are low percentage and low risk for turnovers. Agreed that every play is high risk for sacks, though.

Back shoulder throws can be horribly risky if the timing is off, fwiw. But it sounds like we can dial up some plays that are 'low risk' in one sense and force the defense to account for it....

But we pretty much don't....

Glad that you agree with me now.

[NightTerror218]

Little frustrated i was not abke to get this game. But can i get a non biased opinion of lynch because lynch12 has made everyone jaded like a Tebow fan.

How was his pocket presense? See ghosts again? Or give up on plays and try to scramble too soon?

I see he had some bad passes? Any off them due to timing issue with WR? Or did were they just way off target? Hold onto ball too long? He flat feet and throw correctly on his drops or look funky passing?

I just want to know if he is progressing.

[Simple Jaded]

Little frustrated i was not abke to get this game. But can i get a non biased opinion of lynch because lynch12 has made everyone jaded like a Tebow fan.

How was his pocket presense? See ghosts again? Or give up on plays and try to scramble too soon?

I see he had some bad passes? Any off them due to timing issue with WR? Or did were they just way off target? Hold onto ball too long? He flat feet and throw correctly on his drops or look funky passing?

I just want to know if he is progressing.

I think he looked better in the face of the rush, he didn't play as well as the Bucs game but he improved. His delivery was very inconsistent though, he had a throw before the end of the half that might've scored if he hits DT in stride, have to wait for All-22 to see that. He didn't hold on to the ball too much at all, iirc, and didn't seem to put the ball in danger that I can remember.

Mostly his accuracy that led to the poor grade he'll get.

[Simple Jaded]

Back shoulder throws can be horribly risky if the timing is off, fwiw. But it sounds like we can dial up some plays that are 'low risk' in one sense and force the defense to account for it....

But we pretty much don't....

Glad that you agree with me now.

The defense has to account for everything, the problem is everything is so easy to account for.

[NightTerror218]

I think he looked better in the face of the rush, he didn't play as well as the Bucs game but he improved. His delivery was very inconsistent though, he had a throw before the end of the half that might've scored if he hits DT in stride, have to wait for All-22 to see that. He didn't hold on to the ball too much at all, iirc, and didn't seem to put the ball in danger that I can remember.

Mostly his accuracy that led to the poor grade he'll get.

I watched highlights and they looked good but only showed 2 incompletes and a couple bad choices to run. Saw a deep pass to DT that would have been a touchdown if throw a little further but damn the was was in the air for 55 yards (seemed like he did not put everything into it) and defender made a good play on ball last second.

[Poet]

The defense has to account for everything, the problem is everything is so easy to account for.

I'll take it to an extreme to make the point -- you don't have to account for a running play on third and twenty.

[Simple Jaded]

I watched highlights and they looked good but only showed 2 incompletes and a couple bad choices to run. Saw a deep pass to DT that would have been a touchdown if throw a little further but damn the was was in the air for 55 yards (seemed like he did not put everything into it) and defender made a good play on ball last second.
There was also one to Sanders that he had Sanders open by a mile but under threw it to the point that the defense should have intercepted it twice. Forgot about that one. Horrible throw.

[Joel]

Deep outside the numbers passes, back shoulder throws are low percentage and low risk for turnovers. Agreed that every play is high risk for sacks, though.
And even if you do get a turnover it's essentially the same as a punt, which is what our offense usually does anyway. It's one of the many MANY reasons I hate the West Coast Offense: If you're gonna gamble, don't blow money on scratch offs when you can't quit your job even on the off chance you DO win, play the Powerball so you only need to win ONCE to live like a king for life.

The problem, as always, is that even a WR who runs a 4 flat 40 can't run that distance in HALF that time, wearing full pads. There's just not a whole lot you can do, run or pass, in one-thousand-and-one, one-thousand-and-TACKLE.

[Simple Jaded]

I'll take it to an extreme to make the point -- you don't have to account for a running play on third and twenty.

You don't have to account for the run period, that's my point, and I'm not even taking it to the extreme.

[Poet]

You don't have to account for the run period, that's my point, and I'm not even taking it to the extreme.

At certain points in the season we could run the ball, and the remaining RB's on the roster have talent...

[Joel]

Which is why I said no one was calling him soft THIS year.
He just went on IR AGAIN; people right here on these boards are still calling him soft, whether or not you've seen it.


Oh, there were some years where you claimed that the line was total trash when it wasn't.
No, there were a LOT of years it was total trash but Mannings quick reads and releases made it look better than it was; when I said that in 2013 people said I was crazy and pointed to our low sack totals as "proof" the same way they pointed to our league-best rushing totals in 2011, but by the end of 2014 suddenly EVERYONE was talking about how "our line's been bad for a while but Mannings quick reads and releases masked it." And I'm sitting here thinking, Ya don't say....

I concede someone else told me McGahee led the NFL in yards after contact in 2011, but otherwise it's the same deal.


Also, many years Emmitt Smith led or was up at the front of the line for YAC....and the Cowboys had a great line in those days. That's not the best argument to make, especially when the RB in question is a powerback...
How many of those years did Emmitt RETIRE JUST ONE SEASON LATER? I'm a Texas native, that was my dads team, and he died the year before their 5th SB; I don't need to be told how good their line was—but how many of those great Dallas lines went through FIVE "starting" RBs in as many seasons because "[RB du jour] just isn't getting it done"? Few of our RBs produce; those who do spend half the year on IR.

People like to accuse me of not watching games, but I've watched enough to see ALL our RBs regularly forced to break MULTIPLE tackles just to reach the line, or, in Hillman and Balls case, go down in a heap for a big loss after the first tackle. Moreno started out in the latter mold before it pissed him off enough to army crawl into the second, but it's the same old trend. It sure as HELL didn't start with Kubiak, else talk of he and Dennison being brought into fix what "wasn't broken" would be... I believe the word was "absurd"?


So, I honestly think you should get past your man crush on your OC/HC and get better conclusions.
My conclusions are based on concrete, documented and factual events; yours are based on "Kubiak's just not a good coach—he couldn't even turn a 4-12 expansion team into a SB champ, and only ONE of his FOUR SB championships was as a HC!" In his first year running the team no less. Guy's been in charge 18 months, already won a SB, is 8-4 with a second-year final-round QB who'd never taken a pro snap till this year, but you want MORE? What "more" is there?

Get over YOUR Kubiak hatred; he ain't leaving any time soon.

[Joel]

You don't have to account for the run period, that's my point, and I'm not even taking it to the extreme.
Precisely: You don't have to "account" for jack on PA if you know even if it IS a legit run it'll only get 1-2 yds. Defenses will let you have that all day long, especially when the alternative is pulling guys out of the secondary at the risk of a deep bomb. Defensive coaches lose far more sleep over 70 yd TD bombs than 2 yd runs. That's why you must "run to establish the pass:" Because they'll guard the end zone all day unless you gash them on the ground often enough to MAKE them defend it.

[Valar Morghulis]

The good. We won.

The bad. Having to watch that many three and outs.

That is the type of game that if I tried to get someone from the UK into the sport, they would never watch another game.

Paxton the pirate and his stupid facial hair seemed to play like who I thought he was
........ Which pleased me as I hope that now ceases the calls for a change at qb until next season showing everyone to get behind Trevor.


Oh, another good....latimer sighting lol

[Simple Jaded]

Personally, if Denver can't get Sunshines production out of Latimer they need to find new jobs. The Jordan's need to go.

[silkamilkamonico]

Hot take is our coach doesn't put enough thought into the offense; classic internet right there. Let's fire all the coaches who JUST WON A SUPER BOWL THEIR VERY FIRST SEASON. The bums. Not the offensive line and tight ends coach who's been here SEVEN YEARS while his players impossibly managed to get WORSE every year: The new guys who haven't undone his seven years worth of damage in a single season.

I mean, Hell, Elway gave them the 59th overall pick and a bunch of guys picked in the 90s: What kind of idiots could fail to build rubble into a fortress with that?

Those coaches not doing their job are working under Kubiak. The Head Coach. This is ultimately his vision. And who said anything about firing? Reading comprehension some?

[CrazyHorse]

CJ Anderson is on IR and Bibbs is probably out for the rest of season. RB Justin Forsett is still available. What do you think?

http://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2016/12/04/denver-broncos-need-to-sign-free-agent-rb-justin-forsett/

I'd rather just bring back Ronnie Hillman, younger and faster. Knows the system.

[Joel]

Those coaches not doing their job are working under Kubiak. The Head Coach. This is ultimately his vision. And who said anything about firing? Reading comprehension some?
Vision's great, but GMs hire (and fire) coaches. I'm still hoping against hope we fire the offensive line/TEs coach who's been running our awful linemen and TEs since 2009, not the second-year HC and OC who've run successful offenses everywhere they DIDN'T have Clancy Barone. Hell, there's even a precedent for Kubiak cleaning up his messes: From 2000-2002 he was the Texans line coach, where his blockers performed so well he spent 2003 running Texas States offense.

Regardless, saying Kubiak was brought in to fix an offense that's still worse than it was with Tebow (seriously?) certainly implies firings, but

P.S. Fire Rick Dennison already. That guy does f'n nothing and is a waste of space within the organization.
says it explicitly. Writing comprehension much?

[Joel]

I'd rather just bring back Ronnie Hillman, younger and faster. Knows the system.
This has been discussed though: Forsett has the notable advantage of not currently being on the Chargers roster. :tongue:

[Simple Jaded]

Forsett also has the advantage of not being utterly forgettable in every way.

[Valar Morghulis]

Cj runs hard but his body is glass imo, and in two years that will make him unemployed

Our line in 2013 was no where near this abortion Joel. You were crying about the statistically greatest offense ever at the time, now they are as bad as you thought then.... That doesn't make you right, any more than if Latimer tears it up next season I would be right about him based on this season's evaluation.

[MasterShake]

The Good:

Defense and Special Teams looked solid again. Run defense is still a concern but the turnover machine was nice to see back in action.

We are playing relevant football in December. Can't beat that!

The Bad:

Lynch had the offense catered to him and he was off target all day. He looked better than he did against Atlanta, and at least he didn't turn it over.

Rush defense had 100+ yards on them.

We won a game we should have won so I guess I can't complain. I remember losing to the Raiders and Steeler late last year and thinking we were toast, so I will take a win like this any day. Back in the playoffs and I doubt anybody wants to see us play them if they can get things going just a little on offense. Our Defense can still be special.

[tripp]

The good:

Defense back to it's normal self.

Kapri Bibbs basically won us the game with a 30+ yard carry.

The Bad:

Trying to find 1 positive our of Lynch's performance, and I can't find one. Rookie or not, was expecting him to complete most 5 yard crossing routes. Both of his career starts have been forgettable. Hopefully we won't need his services again for this season.

Does Demaryius Thomas look 100% to anyone? Loos like he's hurt still, as he looks a bit sluggish.

[Buff]

The Good:

Blake Bortles was the opposing QB and our defense is our defense... Thank goodness we had that going for us.

Between their QB play, combined with Ivory, Thomas and Hurns being out - they didn't really stand much of a chance. If you think our offense is unimaginative - be glad you're not a Jags fan.

The Bad:

Our offense remains a huge liability.

The part that discouraged me most about Lynch's start was that he is supposed to be the one with the big arm and he under threw two key deep balls where a good throw would have easily resulted in TDs... Right now Trevor is the better decision maker - so if Lynch isn't going to flash his upside with his big arm then he just doesn't offer enough. There were just too many plays left on the field - but in general he did a good enough job of managing the ball and letting the defense win the game. Not disastrous, but not overly encouraging either.

[Freyaka]

No one called McGahee soft. That's fiction. No one was calling CJ soft this year, either. When Manning was here no one had an issue with Moreno's godly season. Stop trying to lay the blame that a HC was supposed to fix elsewhere. Ball was just flagrantly bad, and that's why he's out of the league. He's a bad example to use.

Kinger...what are you on about man...People have been calling CJ soft for awhile...He had one good year and has been super inconsistent outside of that, not to mention incredibly fragile.

[Joel]

Cj runs hard but his body is glass imo, and in two years that will make him unemployed

Our line in 2013 was no where near this abortion Joel. You were crying about the statistically greatest offense ever at the time, now they are as bad as you thought then.... That doesn't make you right, any more than if Latimer tears it up next season I would be right about him based on this season's evaluation.
It's amazing how they instantly turned to crap once we didn't have Moreno to army crawl through tacklers and Manning to see blitzers and coverage pre-snap, then throw a hot read to the open man in <2 seconds. Yes, they were this bad; remember, most of our current starters only got the job as an attempt to IMPROVE on their predecessors. The difference is our skill players aren't nearly as capable of compensating for the lines flaws as they were then.

On that note: Your RB choices are "runs hard but his body is glass" vs. "stays healthy because he goes down at the first hit." That can't change until the line does.

[tripp]

It's amazing how they instantly turned to crap once we didn't have Moreno to army crawl through tacklers and Manning to see blitzers and coverage pre-snap, then throw a hot read to the open man in <2 seconds. Yes, they were this bad; remember, most of our current starters only got the job as an attempt to IMPROVE on their predecessors. The difference is our skill players aren't nearly as capable of compensating for the lines flaws as they were then.

On that note: Your RB choices are "runs hard but his body is glass" vs. "stays healthy because he goes down at the first hit." That can't change until the line does.

What happened to Moreno? I know he went to Miami, but I believe he's currently not in the NFL. Injury? Or no one wanted to pick him up? I'm not sure his last season with us was a product of Peyton Manning reading the defense, but he played with a chip on his shoulder, and a style of running we miss in Denver.

[Freyaka]

What happened to Moreno? I know he went to Miami, but I believe he's currently not in the NFL. Injury? Or no one wanted to pick him up? I'm not sure his last season with us was a product of Peyton Manning reading the defense, but he played with a chip on his shoulder, and a style of running we miss in Denver.

Dudes knees disintegrated on him...

[BroncoJoe]

What happened to Moreno? I know he went to Miami, but I believe he's currently not in the NFL. Injury? Or no one wanted to pick him up? I'm not sure his last season with us was a product of Peyton Manning reading the defense, but he played with a chip on his shoulder, and a style of running we miss in Denver.

I think he basically retired after his latest injury with Miami, but then stated he'd like to play again.

I still think Booker can be "that" back, just needs some carries and experience.

I'm also warming up to Bibbs, which I hate to admit because of UR... ;)

[underrated29]

I think he basically retired after his latest injury with Miami, but then stated he'd like to play again.

I still think Booker can be "that" back, just needs some carries and experience.

I'm also warming up to Bibbs, which I hate to admit because of UR... ;)



I cant help it if my football takes are always right

[BroncoJoe]

I cant help it if my football takes are always right

Well, I definitely wouldn't go that far...

You MIGHT be right about Bibbs. Nothing else you've claimed has been accurate though.

;)

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The bad:

The jaguards have the worst passing offense in the NFL. The jags will have a top 5 pick.

What does this mean to me? It might be the last game we win all year.

[Freyaka]

The bad:

The jaguards have the worst passing offense in the NFL. The jags will have a top 5 pick.

What does this mean to me? It might be the last game we win all year.

That's a bit overdramatic...We've won 8 games this season... We'll likely beat the Titans next week because they honestly are not a very good team either. Trevor should be back after that and who knows what happens. We could lose out, we could win out, but I highly doubt this is our final win of the year.

[Northman]

Titans can run the ball though so if Murray goes off on us it could be a long day.

[Poet]

Titans can run the ball though so if Murray goes off on us it could be a long day.

That guy brought his career back on track.

[Tned]

Titans can run the ball though so if Murray goes off on us it could be a long day.

This has been my biggest concern about the Titans' game for weeks now.

[Nomad]

Titans can run the ball though so if Murray goes off on us it could be a long day.

BRONCOS seem to have a hard time with running QBs too. Mariota is pretty good at that.

I can't remember the last time I watched a Titans game.

[underrated29]

Well, I definitely wouldn't go that far...

You MIGHT be right about Bibbs. Nothing else you've claimed has been accurate though.

;)



Its all been accurate. The last one i remember being wrong on was Montee Ball. Before him......Javon Walker i guess??? The whole dwill thing though messed him up so much

[Traveler]

This is the game most Broncos fans will hate after all is said and done. TEN will gut the middle of the DL in this game and this loss will essentially kill our playoff chances. Will gladly eat crow if they pull this one out.

[Nomad]

This is the game most Broncos fans will hate after all is said and done. TEN will gut the middle of the DL in this game and this loss will essentially kill our playoff chances. Will gladly eat crow if they pull this one out.

How do you like it cooked? :D

[Tned]

This is the game most Broncos fans will hate after all is said and done. TEN will gut the middle of the DL in this game and this loss will essentially kill our playoff chances. Will gladly eat crow if they pull this one out.

Their running game has had me worried for some time. The Broncos might have to put some points on the board, which is something they have been very inconsistent doing. Not ready to chalk it up as a loss, but it has me worried.

[Lynch12]

The Broncos led by lynch in back to back weeks will put pointron the board no question, the kid just needs to get his feet up under him, catch a back to back rhythm. I was more worried about the jags than I am the titans.

[Freyaka]

The Broncos led by lynch in back to back weeks will put pointron the board no question, the kid just needs to get his feet up under him, catch a back to back rhythm. I was more worried about the jags than I am the titans.

Hate to break it to you, but no it won't. Trevor's out of the boot. It's a pretty good chance he starts and thank god your boy won't get to start back to back... Per today's notes, he's out of the boot and his ankle looks good so that puts an end to that line of thinking.

[NightTerror218]

Hate to break it to you, but no it won't. Trevor's out of the boot. It's a pretty good chance he starts and thank god your boy won't get to start back to back... Per today's notes, he's out of the boot and his ankle looks good so that puts an end to that line of thinking.

Yah but he needs to be 100% healed.... not just feeling better. We saw how last injury hampered him. He does get a bye week to heal up again.

[LawDog]

The Broncos led by lynch in back to back weeks will put pointron the board no question, the kid just needs to get his feet up under him, catch a back to back rhythm. I was more worried about the jags than I am the titans.

you've had maybe 10 reasonable posts out of 352, this ain't one of them.

[Tned]

you've had maybe 10 reasonable posts out of 352, this ain't one of them.

Did you miss his post last Wednesday? I think it was pretty good and would bump him up to 11.

[Freyaka]

you've had maybe 10 reasonable posts out of 352, this ain't one of them.

You give him far too much credit...i'm yet to see a reasonable post out of him.

[NightTerror218]

I dont doubt that more time with 1s would help and multiple starts to settle him down a bit. But if he is not ready he is not ready.

Is it just ne or does kubiak call more plays that have deep routes with lynch? Just thinking i dont see Siemian throw deep 5 times in a game, 2-3 maybe.

[Freyaka]

I dont doubt that more time with 1s would help and multiple starts to settle him down a bit. But if he is not ready he is not ready.

Is it just ne or does kubiak call more plays that have deep routes with lynch? Just thinking i dont see Siemian throw deep 5 times in a game, 2-3 maybe.

He did vs KC and Trevor was gold on each of them. I think Trevor is reaching the end of his "settling in" period. If he can stay healthy I think we see more shots down field as he's gaining confidence and trust. I don't know if Kubes hadn't trusted his arm previously, but I've seen more shots down field in the last two weeks that trevor played than most of the rest of the season.

[NightTerror218]

He did vs KC and Trevor was gold on each of them. I think Trevor is reaching the end of his "settling in" period. If he can stay healthy I think we see more shots down field as he's gaining confidence and trust. I don't know if Kubes hadn't trusted his arm previously, but I've seen more shots down field in the last two weeks that trevor played than most of the rest of the season.

I dont think he had thrown 5 of them though. I think hit everyone he threw but only a few passes.

[Freyaka]

In the KC game he had
14 to E Sanders
20 to E Sanders
14 to E Sanders (plus roughness penalty)
24 to D Thomas
64 to E Sanders
35 to E Sanders (TD)
76 to Fowler (TD)
22 to Booker

Now admittedly, I have zero idea how many yards those passes flew via the area, a lot of that is YAC, but it's clear we took a lot of downfield looks and we had a lot of very productive plays vs KC.

I think the key is, maybe he didn't take 5 deep shots (I don't know the exact number) but we had a lot of big plays in that game against a good defense.

[Hawgdriver]

Good: No Fly Zone + Von & Co.

Saw this on PFF:


Broncos cornerbacks Bradley Roby, Chris Harris Jr., and Aqib Talib allowed just six catches for 57 yards and zero touchdowns on 20 total targets in Denver’s win over the Jaguars.

The trio also recorded a combined two interceptions (Roby had one, Harris the other). Their respective passer ratings allowed were 0.0 for Roby (best in the NFL this week so far), 2.8 for Harris (second), and 43.8 for Talib (17th). Jacksonville quarterback Blake Bortles ranked at or near the bottom of most statistical categories this week, as he had zero success against the Broncos’ talented secondary.

[NightTerror218]

In the KC game he had
14 to E Sanders
20 to E Sanders
14 to E Sanders (plus roughness penalty)
24 to D Thomas
64 to E Sanders
35 to E Sanders (TD)
76 to Fowler (TD)
22 to Booker

Now admittedly, I have zero idea how many yards those passes flew via the area, a lot of that is YAC, but it's clear we took a lot of downfield looks and we had a lot of very productive plays vs KC.

I think the key is, maybe he didn't take 5 deep shots (I don't know the exact number) but we had a lot of big plays in that game against a good defense.

I think only the 2 to sanders and DT were mostly long passes...15 plus yards. Fowler one was mostly after the catch. I am all for deeper and more frequent passing. That was one of my biggest knocks on siemian was hit lack if deep passing. I want those safeties deep and LB to play coverage rather than crowd the LOS.

[Tned]

I dont think he had thrown 5 of them though. I think hit everyone he threw but only a few passes.

Here's the only two recent ones I can find that Lammey put out. Both of these were 9 attempts 15+ yards. I know the last game, there were at least three, and I think more than that. I would guess 5-7 attempts greater than 15

https://twitter.com/CecilLammey/status/793224830837334016


https://twitter.com/CecilLammey/status/796158347431002113

[Lynch12]

Good: No Fly Zone + Von & Co.

Saw this on PFF:

And morons were bashing roby for having a mental lapse late in the game, started wishing he was never drafted and etc. The dude has all prp potential.

[Tned]

Ok, here's week 12 (KC), doesn't look like Lammey posted one for week 10. 11 passes 15+ yards in the air past LOS.

https://twitter.com/CecilLammey/status/803272023661105152

[Hawgdriver]

And morons were bashing roby for having a mental lapse late in the game, started wishing he was never drafted and etc. The dude has all prp potential.

Don't you mean all-prj potential?

[Lynch12]

No.