Paxton starts again

[Freyaka]

Lynchbis nithing like tebow. Our boards were flooded with his fans when he was here. He had a ridiculous following.

He's about as raw and not NFL ready as Tebow was. Who cares if it's not the same type of fans following him

[NightTerror218]

He's about as raw and not NFL ready as Tebow was. Who cares if it's not the same type of fans following him

Lynch is more nfl ready based on the offense he ran. Tebiw was all zone read offense. All he could do with a deep ball here and there.

Lynch can make all throws but has work from under center and with huddle. Lynch also had to work on footwork. Tebow had to do footwork and learn how to pass. He had worst throwing motion and extremely long throwing motion.

Tebow was way more raw.

[Valar Morghulis]

That is an option. I've never owned a mostly orange jersey before. It is enticing.



9932

It's a thing of beauty

[Poet]

I can't wait to stain it with buffalo sauce.

[Cugel]

Lynchbis nithing like tebow. Our boards were flooded with his fans when he was here. He had a ridiculous following.

The problem was they were Tebow fans, not Broncos fans. Good riddance to bad trash! :wave:

[dogfish]

I can't wait to stain it with buffalo sauce.

nacho cheese is recommended 'round these parts. . .

[MOtorboat]

I wish Siemian's performance last night was as good as some of Tebow's worst. Siemian was downright awful last night. And has been mostly bad throughout the season.

Glimpses of servicable is not good enough.

[Poet]

I wish Siemian's performance last night was as good as some of Tebow's worst. Siemian was downright awful last night. And has been mostly bad throughout the season.

Glimpses of servicable is not good enough.

He cannot hit basic deep ball throws. He cannot throw to the sidelines. Belichick saw this. Most of his big deep passes have either been completely wide open OR an incredible catch by our WR's.

[Simple Jaded]

He's about as raw and not NFL ready as Tebow was. Who cares if it's not the same type of fans following him

Oooooook, your bias just went full retard.

[Simple Jaded]

Gregory is going to be out of the NFL in 3 years. You'd have to be a damn fool to trade anything for that bum.

I mentioned "sober" twice...twice I mentioned the word "sober".

[spikerman]

He cannot hit basic deep ball throws. He cannot throw to the sidelines. Belichick saw this. Most of his big deep passes have either been completely wide open OR an incredible catch by our WR's.

He really has trouble with sideline throws. I wonder what it is that the coaches are seeing that has them so enamored. I'm not anti-Siemian at all but I'm not seeing the "wow" factor.

[Simple Jaded]

That trade isn't going to happen, so it's a pointless exercise to shoot it down, but you did successfully shoot it down.

The problem with FA LTs is that they normally command a BIG signing bonus and salary. For instance Russell Okung is due $11M in 2017 and he's not remotely an elite LT. The Broncos could try and re-negotiate that contract since it's not guaranteed, but he's going to be over-paid somewhere in 2017 cause $6-7 million is about the going rate for a mediocre FA LT.

No, Elway screwed the pooch hard when he turned down the Browns offer of Joe Thomas in exchange for a 1st round draft pick (Paxton Lynch it turned out). They could have drafted Dak Prescott in the 3rd and had Joe Thomas, in which case Denver would have crushed the Chiefs twice, backhanded the Titans, and would be preparing to defend their SB title right now with a first round bye, instead of making travel plans for Aruba in January.

**** Dak Prescott.

[Poet]

He really has trouble with sideline throws. I wonder what it is that the coaches are seeing that has them so enamored. I'm not anti-Siemian at all but I'm not seeing the "wow" factor.

It's got to be the fact that he's a hard working young man killing himself out on the field. He's basically Alex Smith...without the talent.

[capt. Jack]

Why not start him, I think we have already seen what Trevor brings to the table.

[Simple Jaded]

Why not start him, I think we have already seen what Trevor brings to the table.

We have mo idea how much Siemian brings to the table.

[Poet]

We have mo idea how much Siemian brings to the table.

:shocked:

[FanInAZ]

We have mo idea how much Siemian brings to the table.

Typo or Freudian slip?

[Traveler]

Once the offseason begins and the players take a little time off to heal, I'd very much like to see both the QB's and all the receivers work with one another as often as possible to establish some type of timing with each other. Especially Lynch, DT, and Sanders.

This team is in full rebuild mode on offense now and it's time to fully commit to Lynch being the QBOTF. Let's them deal with the growing pains this upcoming season. Only way he gets better is by playing. Maybe he can hire/work with Peyton to help school him in the firm room on looking for keys to what a defense is doing. Anything to help speed his development.

[Freyaka]

Once the offseason begins and the players take a little time off to heal, I'd very much like to see both the QB's and all the receivers work with one another as often as possible to establish some type of timing with each other. Especially Lynch, DT, and Sanders.

This team is in full rebuild mode on offense now and it's time to fully commit to Lynch being the QBOTF. Let's them deal with the growing pains this upcoming season. Only way he gets better is by playing. Maybe he can hire/work with Peyton to help school him in the firm room on looking for keys to what a defense is doing. Anything to help speed his development.

IMO, Lynch needs to earn the starting gig...Simply being drafted as the QB of the future, shouldn't be enough to just hand him the keys and hope he doesn't screw it up too badly.

I want to see an open competition between him, Trevor and whatever veteran we bring in and whoever wins it, wins it. I don't want this team handing anyone the job, get out there, earn it and prove you deserve it.

[Freyaka]

Typo or Freudian slip?

We already know MO's ideas on the matter so it had to be a typo :D

[Nomad]

Let Paxton play, let the bench warmers play, let Paxton and Siemian play together.....a little college trickery. It could be like at preseason game.

[Freyaka]

Let Paxton play, let the bench warmers play, let Paxton and Siemian play together.....a little college trickery. It could be like at preseason game.

Judging from how Kubiak talked in post game, I have a suspicion we are going to treat this game as a pre-season game (and why not, we haven't cared enough to show up all year, what's one more meaningless game for us) I'm betting Trevor starts for a half and then Paxton plays the second half...It'll be a pretty dang pointless game.

[Northman]

Judging from how Kubiak talked in post game, I have a suspicion we are going to treat this game as a pre-season game (and why not, we haven't cared enough to show up all year, what's one more meaningless game for us) I'm betting Trevor starts for a half and then Paxton plays the second half...It'll be a pretty dang pointless game.

Trevor shouldnt start at all in this game honestly. This game means nothing to Denver.

[Freyaka]

Trevor shouldnt start at all in this game honestly. This game means nothing to Denver.

Well, nothing this season seems to have meant anything to anyone other than the defense to be quite honest. I've never seen such an apathetic bunch as the offensive side of this ball. Outside of maybe Manny, the entire offense just seems to not give a crap.

[Nomad]

Trevor shouldnt start at all in this game honestly. This game means nothing to Denver.

It means something to Kansas City. :D :lol:

[Traveler]

IMO, Lynch needs to earn the starting gig...Simply being drafted as the QB of the future, shouldn't be enough to just hand him the keys and hope he doesn't screw it up too badly.

I want to see an open competition between him, Trevor and whatever veteran we bring in and whoever wins it, wins it. I don't want this team handing anyone the job, get out there, earn it and prove you deserve it.

Been there, done that! We know what TS. Lets find out about Lynch.

[NightTerror218]

The problem with open competition is siemian has had a whole season to get timing down with DT and sanders which can lead to a lot of off target passes. Lynch will have to show he can make all the throws and start to learn toming before willing an open competition.

Offseason will be interesting for elway. I would like both qbs to do some offseason work woth all WR.

[Freyaka]

Been there, done that! We know what TS. Lets find out about Lynch.

No we really don't...He's played about par for the course for his first year as a starter... You can't tell what you have with a QB in his first year of starting. If he comes out and Lynch beats him for the starting job, great, but don't just hand Lynch the job because you want to see what you've got. Make him freaking earn it... If Trevor grows in the offseason, why shouldn't he have a shot to keep his job?

[Freyaka]

The problem with open competition is siemian has had a whole season to get timing down with DT and sanders which can lead to a lot of off target passes. Lynch will have to show he can make all the throws and start to learn toming before willing an open competition.

Offseason will be interesting for elway. I would like both qbs to do some offseason work woth all WR.

Yea, heaven forbid he has to work hard and prove he deserves the job first. I have zero problems with Lynch taking over as starter, but I am very much against just handing the job to him without him working to show he's deserving of starting.

[NightTerror218]

Yea, heaven forbid he has to work hard and prove he deserves the job first. I have zero problems with Lynch taking over as starter, but I am very much against just handing the job to him without him working to show he's deserving of starting.

That is why I said it cant just be a straight up QB competition because there arw aspects that need time to develope like chemistry with WR.

But i never said give lynch the job. If anything if the competition is even remotely close default has to go to lynch.

What it will come down too is understanding the play book. Control in huddle. Able to make all the throws. Finally running the offense.

Lynch should know the playbook. The rest is a question mark. Siemian knows playbook, control huddle. With the putrid offense i do not say he can run it. Running it to me means he can audible at the line. I dont think siemian was given that option. Manning did audibles all the time last year. This is part of reason i think siemian was limited in playbook.

[Freyaka]

That is why I said it cant just be a straight up QB competition because there arw aspects that need time to develope like chemistry with WR.

But i never said give lynch the job. If anything if the competition is even remotely close default has to go to lynch.

What it will come down too is understanding the play book. Control in huddle. Able to make all the throws. Finally running the offense.

Lynch should know the playbook. The rest is a question mark. Siemian knows playbook, control huddle. With the putrid offense i do not say he can run it. Running it to me means he can audible at the line. I dont think siemian was given that option. Manning did audibles all the time last year. This is part of reason i think siemian was limited in playbook.

But your assumption (at least my assumption of your assumption anyway) is that Trevor isn't going to be better next season. Where we will likely differ is in assigning blame for the putrid offense this season. He played poorly at times no doubt, but top to bottom this offense was terrible this year. There wasn't any one person on the offense (well, maybe the o-line) that deserves more blame than the other.

My belief is if we can resolve the rest of the offensive issues, the QB play will improve as well.

[Poet]

The line doesn't make TS throw a bad deep ball. Nor does it make him struggle with sideline throws. Can he get better there? I hope. I will say that it's starting to feel like we're giving Lynch development time to TS.

[Freyaka]

The line doesn't make TS throw a bad deep ball. Nor does it make him struggle with sideline throws. Can he get better there? I hope. I will say that it's starting to feel like we're giving Lynch development time to TS.

You make it sound as if no first year starter every struggled to make deep throws...

[Poet]

You make it sound as if no first year starter every struggled to make deep throws...

No, no I don't. But I do make it sound like the whole 'the line is bad so everything else is out the window' is a heap of bunk. Because it is.

He has large flaws in his game. Flaws that go beyond the offensive line. We have a good idea of what he is at this stage in his career.

[BigDaddyBronco]

No, no I don't. But I do make it sound like the whole 'the line is bad so everything else is out the window' is a heap of bunk. Because it is.

He has large flaws in his game. Flaws that go beyond the offensive line. We have a good idea of what he is at this stage in his career.

I wonder how Dak would have done thrown in behind our OLine? He can make some nice throws when he has that running game and all day to throw the ball.

Siemian or Lynch for that matter can be good if they get some help. You can see how gun shy Trevor got as the RT couldn't block anyone, he was turning into Orton, Osweiler, etc. as the fainting goat. Maybe Lynch doesn't have that in him and will fight more (and get hurt more). Who knows?

[Mike]

No, no I don't. But I do make it sound like the whole 'the line is bad so everything else is out the window' is a heap of bunk. Because it is.

He has large flaws in his game. Flaws that go beyond the offensive line. We have a good idea of what he is at this stage in his career.

Yeah, no. The line is the second biggest problem behind coaching. Siemian has flaws...how large they are can't be determined due to the bigger problems on the offense.

[MOtorboat]

I don't want a quarterback who absolutely needs perfect conditions to be serviceable. But, hey, that's just me.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I don't want a quarterback who absolutely needs perfect conditions to be serviceable. But, hey, that's just me.

Well, yea, you could have a HOFer like Rodgers or Elway. They grow on trees. Why not spend the picks and money on an OLine and then see if either Siemian or Lynch pans out. If not, at least your Oline isn't killing your next crop of young QB's.

[MOtorboat]

Well, yea, you could have a HOFer like Rodgers or Elway. They grow on trees. Why not spend the picks and money on an OLine and then see if either Siemian or Lynch pans out. If not, at least your Oline isn't killing your next crop of young QB's.

He doesn't have to be a Hall of Fame quarterback to be good even under imperfect settings. That's utter crap. It's also complete bullshit that you can't evaluate a quarterback unless the line is good.

That said. The position Denver is in is to probably build the line and deal with mediocre to bad quarterback play and hope they can score just enough to let the defense win games. That's the position Denver is in.

[underrated29]

I wonder how Dak would have done thrown in behind our OLine? He can make some nice throws when he has that running game and all day to throw the ball.

Siemian or Lynch for that matter can be good if they get some help. You can see how gun shy Trevor got as the RT couldn't block anyone, he was turning into Orton, Osweiler, etc. as the fainting goat. Maybe Lynch doesn't have that in him and will fight more (and get hurt more). Who knows?


I was thinking about that all night last night while watching the lions cowboys game. Dak would be run out of town here. He would be so so bad. Youre totally right.


What changed from last year? QB...Thats it. We won it all last year with a gimpy ass manning. RT may even be better this year, lol. God that is so pathetic to say. But it is probably true. So a QB with perfect conditions no. Thats just a dumb remark. We won it all last year without perfect conditions. The QB play declined drastically though. As we have proof this year and all prior years- what is a New QBs best friend???? A run game and a good OL.

Dak proves this.
David Carr proves this.
Any Rams Qb proves this.
Tom Brady proves this.

When the QB has a good oline to keep him up and or a good run game to keep the pressure off of him they perform Markedly better. We need to get a better QB and we need to get a better OL. I would start with RT. That is the biggest weakness. Fix that first and foremost. Then work on Guard. We have 2 qbs and will sign another- maybe Tyrod, maybe romo...another will come in.

And I call bullshit to anyone who thinks we would not be in the playoffs and likely a top 1-2 seed if we had romo this year. We absolutely would

[Poet]

I wonder how Dak would have done thrown in behind our OLine? He can make some nice throws when he has that running game and all day to throw the ball.

Siemian or Lynch for that matter can be good if they get some help. You can see how gun shy Trevor got as the RT couldn't block anyone, he was turning into Orton, Osweiler, etc. as the fainting goat. Maybe Lynch doesn't have that in him and will fight more (and get hurt more). Who knows?

Last night Dak, a rookie, made audibles that paid off. He identified blitzers and packages. He's a rookie. Our Qb from Northwestern and second year player identifies very little. It's not an apt comparison for numerous reasons. Dak can make sideline throws. Dak can hit deep passes. TS fails to hit deep passes when the protection holds up. He's probably worse on the sideline passes, too.

This goes back to the whole 'we don't know what we have in TS.' Yeah, we sort of do. And while TS can obviously improve, the people who are optimistic about the guy are tricking themselves. I'm not saying you can't look at TS and logically be optimistic, but there's this notion that the offensive line play negates the issues that he has, and that those issues don't exist.

It's not a good sign when your young QB has a year's worth of studying, a season's worth of playtime, and he has bad pocket presence, holds onto the ball too long, can't hit the aforementioned throws, and is making little to no progress in those areas.

And to be honest, if it gets time to name a starter, and TS isn't leaps and miles ahead of Lynch, Kubiak would be an idiot to start TS. Because TS' overall play has been less than average.

In a pass friendly rules setting, you need to complete around 62% of your passes.

http://www.nfl.com/player/trevorsiemian/2553457/profile

That is bad. And there's a certain point where if we just go 'buuuuuuuuuuuuut the offensive liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine' we're turning a blind eye to poor play from everyone. Against the Chiefs he was literally Tebowesque. I pointed out numerous instances where the protection held up and he killed the play. By either missing wide open guys by a mile, underthrowing it, or not seeing a target over the middle of the field. For the love of god he's missed so many people over the middle of the field that I don't know if I should be mad at him or his coaches. He took a sack off of a clean pocket because he stood there forever and a day, everyone was targeted, he choose not to bounce outside when there was no one around him, and he got clobbered. We got bailed out with a penalty on KC.

I watched Carson Palmer develop. I watched Andy Dalton develop. I watched Jay Cutler develop here and in Chicago (I live in Springfield, Il). I ws in high school when Brady and Manning were developing. Those guys run the spectrum from all-time great to subpar. I've even seen so many shitty QB's develop in Cleveland that it's hilarious. Point being is that I've seen a lot of young QB's develop. TS is behind a lot of them on issues that don't involve the line. They were all rookies, btw. Sans Palmer, he sat behind Kitna for a year. That's actually the most apt comparison I could make. The Bengals had a shitty line then, too. The Steelers and the Ravens' D was ferocious.


And I don't care if TS is the starter, but again, he needs to be waaaaaaaaaaay ahead of Lynch. Because again, if it's close, you go with the guy who has talent.

[Poet]

I don't want a quarterback who absolutely needs perfect conditions to be serviceable. But, hey, that's just me.

Yep.

[Timmy!]

And I call bullshit to anyone who thinks we would not be in the playoffs and likely a top 1-2 seed if we had romo this year. We absolutely would

Is this before or after Romo wakes up from the coma he would have been in since October?

[Poet]

Yeah, no. The line is the second biggest problem behind coaching. Siemian has flaws...how large they are can't be determined due to the bigger problems on the offense.

A great offensive line does not improve his arm strength. A great offensive line doesn't help him improve on his deep sideline passes when he can't do it when the line holds up. A great line doesn't help his pocket presence.

Look at his first game against KC. Then look at his game against Cincinnati. That makes up almost half of his passing TD's. He's been fine because the expectations were that he would not turn the ball over a lot and run or lead a pedestrian offense. He doesn't have a lot of turnovers. He also doesn't have a lot of impressive plays, either. That's not all on the line.

[Freyaka]

I don't want a quarterback who absolutely needs perfect conditions to be serviceable. But, hey, that's just me.

Such a stupid arguement...Most QB's don't do well when surrounded by ineptitude like we see here... Like was already said in this thread, we won't really know what we have until those conditions improve. They by no means need to be perfect, but come on...This is probably THE WORST situation you could throw a first year QB into.

[Freyaka]

A great offensive line does not improve his arm strength. A great offensive line doesn't help him improve on his deep sideline passes when he can't do it when the line holds up. A great line doesn't help his pocket presence.

Look at his first game against KC. Then look at his game against Cincinnati. That makes up almost half of his passing TD's. He's been fine because the expectations were that he would not turn the ball over a lot and run or lead a pedestrian offense. He doesn't have a lot of turnovers. He also doesn't have a lot of impressive plays, either. That's not all on the line.

Aside from arm strength (Manning didn't need arm strength...) All of the things you mentioned are not uncommon to see young QB's struggle with...

[Freyaka]

I was thinking about that all night last night while watching the lions cowboys game. Dak would be run out of town here. He would be so so bad. Youre totally right.


What changed from last year? QB...Thats it. We won it all last year with a gimpy ass manning. RT may even be better this year, lol. God that is so pathetic to say. But it is probably true. So a QB with perfect conditions no. Thats just a dumb remark. We won it all last year without perfect conditions. The QB play declined drastically though. As we have proof this year and all prior years- what is a New QBs best friend???? A run game and a good OL.

Dak proves this.
David Carr proves this.
Any Rams Qb proves this.
Tom Brady proves this.

When the QB has a good oline to keep him up and or a good run game to keep the pressure off of him they perform Markedly better. We need to get a better QB and we need to get a better OL. I would start with RT. That is the biggest weakness. Fix that first and foremost. Then work on Guard. We have 2 qbs and will sign another- maybe Tyrod, maybe romo...another will come in.

And I call bullshit to anyone who thinks we would not be in the playoffs and likely a top 1-2 seed if we had romo this year. We absolutely would

I call bullshit on your call of bullshit. Romo wouldn't have made it 3 games prior to injury. Unlike TS he is in no way shape or form a tough player, he bends like a leaf.

[underrated29]

Is this before or after Romo wakes up from the coma he would have been in since October?


Peyton sort of survived this line and he is far less durable then romo. It is impossible to project injuries and I hate when people try to use that excuse that romo would die behind this ol. He quite possibly would but we dont know and its been stated by some that it is not the OL that is at fault. If not, Romo would be fine. Hes a lot more mobile then peyton

[Poet]

Such a stupid arguement...Most QB's don't do well when surrounded by ineptitude like we see here... Like was already said in this thread, we won't really know what we have until those conditions improve. They by no means need to be perfect, but come on...This is probably THE WORST situation you could throw a first year QB into.

I saw a young Matt Stafford making plays with a bad line, one WR, and no RB's.

I saw a young Palmer making play with a bad line, one RB, and one WR.

I saw a young Brady make plays with no real number one RB, and no WR of worth.

I saw a young Derek Carr make plays with one WR, a RB, and an okay line -it has developed into a beastly line- in a tough defensive division.

I've heard John Elway even flashed glimpses of greatness on bad teams. Aikman had horrible stats, but people saw something in him, too.

[Poet]

Aside from arm strength (Manning didn't need arm strength...) All of the things you mentioned are not uncommon to see young QB's struggle with...

Young QB's who turn into great players also tend to demonstrate or flash greatness, too. TS hasn't done that.

[MOtorboat]

Such a stupid arguement...Most QB's don't do well when surrounded by ineptitude like we see here... Like was already said in this thread, we won't really know what we have until those conditions improve. They by no means need to be perfect, but come on...This is probably THE WORST situation you could throw a first year QB into.

No. There is nothing stupid about wanting a quarterback who is good.

[Poet]

No. There is nothing stupid about wanting a quarterback who is good.

All of the flaws and none of the upsides: A Trevor Siemian story.


Relax guys, I'm mostly kidding. He gets a C on the year.

[MOtorboat]

Peyton sort of survived this line and he is far less durable then romo. It is impossible to project injuries and I hate when people try to use that excuse that romo would die behind this ol. He quite possibly would but we dont know and its been stated by some that it is not the OL that is at fault. If not, Romo would be fine. Hes a lot more mobile then peyton

Romo would have won the Titans game.

[Freyaka]

I saw a young Matt Stafford making plays with a bad line, one WR, and no RB's.

I saw a young Palmer making play with a bad line, one RB, and one WR.

I saw a young Brady make plays with no real number one RB, and no WR of worth.

I saw a young Derek Carr make plays with one WR, a RB, and an okay line -it has developed into a beastly line- in a tough defensive division.

I've heard John Elway even flashed glimpses of greatness on bad teams. Aikman had horrible stats, but people saw something in him, too.

So what a few select players do we should expect of everyone...That's the problem with Broncos fans. They all expect their young QB's to be Elway out of the gate. And you know what, if we compare stats on each of the players you named in their first year we'd see little to no distinguishable difference...

[Freyaka]

No. There is nothing stupid about wanting a quarterback who is good.

There is something stupid about it to develop overnight...

[Freyaka]

Lets say Paxton does start next year. You all going to turn on him on a dime too and start clamoring for the next backup of note?

[MOtorboat]

There is something stupid about it to develop overnight...

It hasn't been overnight.

[underrated29]

I call bullshit on your call of bullshit. Romo wouldn't have made it 3 games prior to injury. Unlike TS he is in no way shape or form a tough player, he bends like a leaf.


You cant project injuries. No one thought peyton would last here after his 4 neck surgeries. He made it 5 years! He is not tough. Neither is Kyle Orton nor Peyton. When romo got hurt he was scrambling out of the pocket anyway. No one can say he would be hurt after 1,2,3,4+ games. We have not had a QB go on IR here since.......I do not even know and I do not think that anyone is arguing we do not have at least top 3 worst line in all of the NFL.


Romo would have won the Titans game.

Probably. Chiefs game, pats game, and likely a few others.



Romo vs Siemian is not even close. Now his pricetag- thats a whole other story.

[underrated29]

So what a few select players do we should expect of everyone...That's the problem with Broncos fans. They all expect their young QB's to be Elway out of the gate. And you know what, if we compare stats on each of the players you named in their first year we'd see little to no distinguishable difference...


I would hope we start Lynch next week just to get his feet wet a bit more (and secretly hope for a better draft position)


As for next year- I expect we sign a vet QB. Tyrod, Kaep, Romo, someone. I expect all three will compete and I expect Lynch to require another year of seasoning imo (depending on what I see from him this sunday- if he even plays). I expect that Simmy will compete for the starter job with the vet. If its Romo- I bet romo wins. If its Tyrod or someone else itll be an interesting battle....If for some reason we actually do get a RT and OL- Its possible Lynch could win the job too. I still think he needs more practice and polishing.

[Poet]

So what a few select players do we should expect of everyone...That's the problem with Broncos fans. They all expect their young QB's to be Elway out of the gate. And you know what, if we compare stats on each of the players you named in their first year we'd see little to no distinguishable difference...

I was literally pulling names off the top of my head.

Look, you think that it's mostly on the line and his youth. I think he's behind the curve -we will note that no one here seems to take issue with his poor pocket presence, reads, blitz identification, sideline throws, or deepballs- and it's too simplistic to just go 'he's young and the line is bad'.

We've had a wonderful discussion.

[Freyaka]

It hasn't been overnight.

One season in football terms is absolutely "overnight"

[Poet]

There is something stupid about it to develop overnight...

Most NFL careers last three years. Most highly drafted QB's get about three years. Because of the investment.

[Poet]

Lets say Paxton does start next year. You all going to turn on him on a dime too and start clamoring for the next backup of note?

No one turned on anyone. I'll have a little more patience with him because he was much rawer a prospect. But if he's not better at the end of the season I'm going to be very dubious about his prospects.

Are you going to go from 'he's a raw guy' to 'he should be an all-pro right now'?

[MOtorboat]

One season in football terms is absolutely "overnight"

We're not watching the same league.

[Slick]

There is something stupid about it to develop overnight...

This coming from a guy who called Lynch a bust after 2 and a half games, or am I mistaking you for someone else?

[Poet]

This coming from a guy who called Lynch a bust after 2 and a half games, or am I mistaking you for someone else?

#pointstrong
#debate
#rebuttal
#slickerthanbill
#whyyoudohimlikethat?
#hashtag

Freyaka, I like you a lot, and I'm glad you're here. Please know my hashtags are just goofy.

[Freyaka]

This coming from a guy who called Lynch a bust after 2 and a half games, or am I mistaking you for someone else?

I have never once called him a bust. I have said he's not far enough along in his development to earn the starting job. That's a pretty big distinction. He will eventually develop (be it for us, or another team) but right now at this stage in his development he reminds me of Tebow. He's raw and needs to sit another season. He can make the strides in the offseason, but I don't anticipate it based on what I've seen.

In no way shape or form have I said he's a bust, so you are either mistaking me for someone else, or putting words in my mouth.

[Freyaka]

To add to my point, it takes more than one year for any QB to develop (even those who are much closer to NFL ready than others) Most QB's don't get even close to their full potential until about their third year, but in their second year you see vast leaps forward. If we don't see those leaps forward, we move on from trevor and that's fine, but that's why I want to see a competition, I personally believe we'll see a leap forward in the offseason and start to get a better idea of what Trevor is or is not capable of.

It's equally possible we see the same leap from Paxton and he wins the starting job. If he does win the starting jobs, don't expect a superbowl, he's going to have a rough time of development as well unless we fix the oline and run game immediately. I'll give him the same time to develop as a starter that I'm willing to give Trevor (or any Broncos QB)

[Poet]

Freyaka, I am officially counting you as a message board friend.

Prepare for dick pics.

[Mike]

I saw a young Matt Stafford making plays with a bad line, one WR, and no RB's.

I saw a young Palmer making play with a bad line, one RB, and one WR.

I saw a young Brady make plays with no real number one RB, and no WR of worth.

I saw a young Derek Carr make plays with one WR, a RB, and an okay line -it has developed into a beastly line- in a tough defensive division.

I've heard John Elway even flashed glimpses of greatness on bad teams. Aikman had horrible stats, but people saw something in him, too.

Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int

201 377 53.3 2267 13 20

272 459 59.3 3195 16 9

348 599 58.1 3270 21 12

339 627 54.1 4374 23 18

263 432 60.9 2897 18 18

300 516 58.1 3398 20 13

Which one is TS? Do you know who the others are?

[Poet]

I actually do know those numbers. I also know that TS got just about half his passing TD's in two games. Which should tell you how poor the production has been.


I also know that TS' numbers are going to be inflated via the era he plays in. And when you account for that, it's bad, Mike.

[Mike]

I actually do know those numbers. I also know that TS got just about half his passing TD's in two games. Which should tell you how poor the production has been.


I also know that TS' numbers are going to be inflated via the era he plays in. And when you account for that, it's bad, Mike.

Lol...goal posts are a moving. What he is is still unknown. What he can be with a better line and better offense is unknown. But if he can put up similar numbers as a rookie as Derek Carr, Andrew Luck, Andy Dalton, Tom Brady, and Carson Palmer then saying he has no chance to get better is laughable. I don't know what he can be, but he isn't as bad as you guys make him seem.

[Poet]

Lol...goal posts are a moving. What he is is still unknown. What he can be with a better line and better offense is unknown. But if he can put up similar numbers as a rookie as Derek Carr, Andrew Luck, Andy Dalton, Tom Brady, and Carson Palmer then saying he has no chance to get better is laughable. I don't know what he can be, but he isn't as bad as you guys make him seem.

No. The goal posts aren't moving. How is saying 'Hey, look, there's a differences in eras that is well documented by fans, analysts, talking heads, coaches, and the coaching committee' moving the goalposts? If we take that logic to heart then there weren't too many good QB's in the 70's because their numbers were drastically lower than what guys do now.

I'm not saying he's horrible. I don't understand why people thing strong criticism is an indictment of hatred. The board seems to have taken the notion of line play is important and turned it from a principle to a shibboleth.

[Slick]

I have never once called him a bust. I have said he's not far enough along in his development to earn the starting job. That's a pretty big distinction. He will eventually develop (be it for us, or another team) but right now at this stage in his development he reminds me of Tebow. He's raw and needs to sit another season. He can make the strides in the offseason, but I don't anticipate it based on what I've seen.

In no way shape or form have I said he's a bust, so you are either mistaking me for someone else, or putting words in my mouth.

I couldn't find the word bust in your post history but I see some pretty hypocritical stances when you talk about Siemian and Lynch.

I think I might have mistaken you with someone over on Orange Mane. My apologies.

[underrated29]

I couldn't find the word bust in your post history but I see some pretty hypocritical stances when you talk about Siemian and Lynch.

I think I might have mistaken you with someone over on Orange Mane. My apologies.


yash?

[Valar Morghulis]

I couldn't find the word bust in your post history but I see some pretty hypocritical stances when you talk about Siemian and Lynch. I think I might have mistaken you with someone over on Orange Mane. My apologies.

It was probably me, i went full retard on lynch for a while when lynch12 was here, now he is gone I mostly mock his pirate appearance. But I don't believe he will ever be out starter and I think TS holds his job next year.

That's just gut feeling though, I am aware he can not yet be classed as a bust.

[Timmy!]

Peyton sort of survived this line and he is far less durable then romo. It is impossible to project injuries and I hate when people try to use that excuse that romo would die behind this ol. He quite possibly would but we dont know and its been stated by some that it is not the OL that is at fault. If not, Romo would be fine. Hes a lot more mobile then peyton

That's adorable. "We don't know" etc. Let me tell you what we do know. Romo didn't survive behind the Dallas line. This is a fact....but by all means please proceed with the conjecture that Romo would behind ours, because, you know, logic!

[Freyaka]

I couldn't find the word bust in your post history but I see some pretty hypocritical stances when you talk about Siemian and Lynch.

I think I might have mistaken you with someone over on Orange Mane. My apologies.

Bear in mind that my worst posts regarding Lynch were for Lynch12's benefits to troll the troll. I'm more level headed for the most part. I'm just not sold on Lynch's abilities and I think he needs more time to develop before we give over the offense to him.

[Freyaka]

It was probably me, i went full retard on lynch for a while when lynch12 was here, now he is gone I mostly mock his pirate appearance.

But I don't believe he will ever be out starter and I think TS holds his job next year. That's just gut feeling though, I am aware he can not yet be classed as a busy.

I think that's most of us...Most of us went into sarcastic ass mode for awhile until Lynch12 got banned and then we calmed down and said what we really meant rather than what we wanted Lynch12 to hear so that his head would explode.

[underrated29]

That's adorable. "We don't know" etc. Let me tell you what we do know. Romo didn't survive behind the Dallas line. This is a fact....but by all means please proceed with the conjecture that Romo would behind ours, because, you know, logic!


Well 10 seasons or however many he started for in Dallas say logic....but feel free to tell me how he has put up insane numbers while always being in a coma. Before Dallas had a good line too

[BigDaddyBronco]

Romo would have won the Titans game.

Romo wouldn't have been in the Titans game because he would have been on IR after our line had let him get hit so many times.

[Freyaka]

Romo wouldn't have been in the Titans game because he would have been on IR after our line had let him get hit so many times.

How dare you bring logic to an irrational discussion! All hail Romo! Our new and future savior....

[Cugel]

No. The goal posts aren't moving. How is saying 'Hey, look, there's a differences in eras that is well documented by fans, analysts, talking heads, coaches, and the coaching committee' moving the goalposts? If we take that logic to heart then there weren't too many good QB's in the 70's because their numbers were drastically lower than what guys do now.

I'm not saying he's horrible. I don't understand why people thing strong criticism is an indictment of hatred. The board seems to have taken the notion of line play is important and turned it from a principle to a shibboleth.

It's not just a "principle". In today's Denver Post they point out that the Broncos season tanked when C.J. tore up his knee. "When the Broncos lost the ability to gain rushing yards, their season fell apart. Devontae Booker is averaging 37.0 yards per game." (http://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/27/when-the-broncos-lost-the-ability-to-gain-rushing-yards-their-season-fell-apart/)

In the previous Raiders game, the Raiders ran the ball 43 times for 218 yards and 3 TDs. Trevor Siemian had a reasonably good game, throwing for 283 yards, 2 TDs and 1 Int, while Derek Carr threw for 184 total yards and 0 TDs. It didn't matter. In every key series they ran the ball down the Broncos throats.

"It looked like all the men were on the Raiders" - Troy Renk, Broncos Insider describing the last Raiders game where they ran the ball.

Take a look at which teams are in the AFC Playoffs:


Team rushing … Yds/att … Yds/game … NFL rank
Broncos … 3.6 … 89.4 … 28th
New England … 3.9 … 116.8 … 8th
Oakland … 4.5 … 124.3 … 5th
Pittsburgh … 4.4 … 112.7 … 11th
Houston … 4.2 … 120.9 … 6th
Kansas City … 4.3 … 109.7 … 16th
Miami … 4.6 … 116.6 … 9th

This is not an accident. The Dallas Cowboys have the best OL in football. Oakland is probably #2. Those two teams have combined for 25 wins and 5 losses this year. That isn't an accident either.

Sure, Siemian could have played better. He's thrown some incomprehensible picks. But, this is his first year as a starter. He's got a lot to learn and Lynch has a lot more.

Throwing a rookie QB out there with the worst OL in football and no running game.What did anybody expect to happen? That he would suddenly become Aaron Rogers? Fans have unrealistic expectations.

Next season there's going to be a QB controversy because Lynch isn't close to being even as good as Siemian right now, but Siemian isn't going to make the Pro-Bowl any time soon either. This is what happens when a team loses a Hall of Fame QB to retirement. I distinctly remember 1999 and all the talk about the Broncos "three-peat" as SB champion. But, no John Elway, no T.D. 4 games later and the team went 6-10.

Until they fix the OL nothing good is going to happen for this team because there isn't another Hall of Fame QB just waiting to come to Denver as a FA this off-season who can make the OL look much better than they are, by always reading the defense and getting them in the right play, and forcing teams to play the pass. Trevor Siemian or a woefully inexperienced Paxton Lynch is as good as it's going to get for Denver next year.

[Poet]

Hold on, so your principle is that line play matters, and you're supporting that by pointing out a RB who gained yards with that line hurt his knee? While I could talk at length about how sad it is that Denver only had one true running back on its roster, that doesn't actually help the point. Especially when it's used as a counter-argument to 'hey guys, the QB, when he has time struggles with deep passes and throws to the sideline. He also has little pocket presence and doesn't seem to identify blitzers, and gets lost if a team drops back in coverage'.

[Hawgdriver]

No. The goal posts aren't moving. How is saying 'Hey, look, there's a differences in eras that is well documented by fans, analysts, talking heads, coaches, and the coaching committee' moving the goalposts? If we take that logic to heart then there weren't too many good QB's in the 70's because their numbers were drastically lower than what guys do now.

I'm not saying he's horrible. I don't understand why people thing strong criticism is an indictment of hatred. The board seems to have taken the notion of line play is important and turned it from a principle to a shibboleth.

Line play was a shibboleth from the start. It's the pork of the NFL. Don't eat it. Unless it's cooked right. This line was way undercooked.

[Poet]

Line play was a shibboleth from the start. It's the pork of the NFL. Don't eat it. Unless it's cooked right. This line was way undercooked.

Never tell people to not eat pork.

[Hawgdriver]

Never tell people to not eat pork.

Unless it's the right thing to do.

[Poet]

Unless it's the right thing to do.

Eating pork is the right thing to do. It's delicious.

[Hawgdriver]

Eating pork is the right thing to do. It's delicious.

Like Trevor Siemian.

Full circle.

[Poet]

Like Trevor Siemian.

Full circle.

There is a thread filled with false equivalences, poor logic, dismissal of valuable context, and you're giving me this?

You're my damn nemesis again.

[Hawgdriver]

There is a thread filled with false equivalences, poor logic, dismissal of valuable context, and you're giving me this?

You're my damn nemesis again.

I heard Siemian is a McRib connoisseur. Does this bring him into C+ territory?

[Poet]

I heard he's vegan. There's only one vegan in my world.

[Poet]

Val, that hi-five makes me think that you think that you are the vegan in my life. In reality, you're just the vegan that I'm in.

[Freyaka]

Hold on, so your principle is that line play matters, and you're supporting that by pointing out a RB who gained yards with that line hurt his knee? While I could talk at length about how sad it is that Denver only had one true running back on its roster, that doesn't actually help the point. Especially when it's used as a counter-argument to 'hey guys, the QB, when he has time struggles with deep passes and throws to the sideline. He also has little pocket presence and doesn't seem to identify blitzers, and gets lost if a team drops back in coverage'.

Have you seen how well our WR's have been covered in the last month? Teams have absolutely sold out to defend the pass...Corners are sticking to our WR's and TE's like absolute glue. He could have 20 minutes in the pocket and struggle to find an open man thanks to how good coverage has been against us. This all stems from the fact that our o-line struggles across the board at blocking for passes and for runs.

If you know that a team cannot run and sending 3-4 players will oftentimes result in heavy pressure or sacks, what are you going to do in most situations? If it were me as the DC I'd drop my backers in coverage or even swap one or more of them out for corners and just blanket the receivers daring them to run the ball on us...and we, being inept like we are just say "hey...maybe we can throw the ball....perhaps a flea flicker will fool them"

But yet you are over here clinging to deep passes and sideline throws... There are so many things wrong with this offense it's disgusting, most importantly the terrible line play and we're worried about deep passes and sideline passes when Trevor has time...

Try watching the all-22 sometime, it's a great camera angle that coaches actually use to evaluate play. So many times there is absolutely nothing there for him to do because everyone is covered. Granted, I'd rather he throw the ball away rather than take the sack, but that's something that QB's begin to recognize over time.

Everything, no matter who the QB is starts and ends with the line. It did last year with Manning/Oz, it's still the primary issue this year.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Hold on, so your principle is that line play matters, and you're supporting that by pointing out a RB who gained yards with that line hurt his knee? While I could talk at length about how sad it is that Denver only had one true running back on its roster, that doesn't actually help the point. Especially when it's used as a counter-argument to 'hey guys, the QB, when he has time struggles with deep passes and throws to the sideline. He also has little pocket presence and doesn't seem to identify blitzers, and gets lost if a team drops back in coverage'.

My point is that it is really hard to judge a QB when he has 1.5 seconds or less to make a pass. Peyton could do it and masked many bad OLines with quick decision making and a quick release. Tom Brady can do it as well. Yea those guys are HOFers. Siemian might be serviceable if the right side of the line isn't a sieve (they left side isn't much better). Our RT made Vic Beasley look like Von Miller.

[Poet]

Have you seen how well our WR's have been covered in the last month? Teams have absolutely sold out to defend the pass...Corners are sticking to our WR's and TE's like absolute glue. He could have 20 minutes in the pocket and struggle to find an open man thanks to how good coverage has been against us. This all stems from the fact that our o-line struggles across the board at blocking for passes and for runs.

If you know that a team cannot run and sending 3-4 players will oftentimes result in heavy pressure or sacks, what are you going to do in most situations? If it were me as the DC I'd drop my backers in coverage or even swap one or more of them out for corners and just blanket the receivers daring them to run the ball on us...and we, being inept like we are just say "hey...maybe we can throw the ball....perhaps a flea flicker will fool them"

But yet you are over here clinging to deep passes and sideline throws... There are so many things wrong with this offense it's disgusting, most importantly the terrible line play and we're worried about deep passes and sideline passes when Trevor has time...

Try watching the all-22 sometime, it's a great camera angle that coaches actually use to evaluate play. So many times there is absolutely nothing there for him to do because everyone is covered. Granted, I'd rather he throw the ball away rather than take the sack, but that's something that QB's begin to recognize over time.

Everything, no matter who the QB is starts and ends with the line. It did last year with Manning/Oz, it's still the primary issue this year.

Teams are going into coverage against us. This is a thing that happens. How do other QB's beat coverage? How do QB's play against zone schemes? Is that an impossibility? Or is it something that shouldn't result in the acceptance of no points by our offense? Most good QB's find the gaps in zone coverage. You can't just drop back into zone coverage and win. What a lot of QB's do is if everyone is falling into coverage, and the line holds -in many of THESE instances it has- you tuck the ball and run. Just saying my friend, just saying. If I were to be specious -although it would be fitting in this instance - I'd just say 'well hold on, the line is holding up, I thought you said that was key to production, so show it to me- but I argue in actual good faith.

I'm not clinging to anything. The assertion made time and time again is that the line prevents TS from doing anything, and as such he's not fault for the production. Yet we've all seen him literally overthrow and underthrow wide open players. You know, when the line has held up. We've seen him miss guys on the sidelines, and even through that atrocious unforced error INT against NE. You know, when the line held up. So when someone puts forth the assertion in question, and someone goes 'wait, here are these very obvious and well known failures that fly directly in the face of this' that should make someone pause. Because at that point since we're often not giving up a lot to the opposition TS isn't exactly being asked to do a whole lot. Hit wide open players deep, find the guys wide open on the middle of the field (he's missed a ton of those guys both in throws and in seeing them) and hit the sideline pass...it's bad.

[Poet]

My point is that it is really hard to judge a QB when he has 1.5 seconds or less to make a pass. Peyton could do it and masked many bad OLines with quick decision making and a quick release. Tom Brady can do it as well. Yea those guys are HOFers. Siemian might be serviceable if the right side of the line isn't a sieve (they left side isn't much better). Our RT made Vic Beasley look like Von Miller.

He might be serviceable. If everything is right and he has no adversity to overcome, he might be an okay game manager. It's really hard to put faith in a guy when I read that. It's even harder after watching him legitimately play awful football the past several weeks.

[Freyaka]

Teams are going into coverage against us. This is a thing that happens. How do other QB's beat coverage? How do QB's play against zone schemes? Is that an impossibility? Or is it something that shouldn't result in the acceptance of no points by our offense? Most good QB's find the gaps in zone coverage. You can't just drop back into zone coverage and win. What a lot of QB's do is if everyone is falling into coverage, and the line holds -in many of THESE instances it has- you tuck the ball and run. Just saying my friend, just saying. If I were to be specious -although it would be fitting in this instance - I'd just say 'well hold on, the line is holding up, I thought you said that was key to production, so show it to me- but I argue in actual good faith.

I'm not clinging to anything. The assertion made time and time again is that the line prevents TS from doing anything, and as such he's not fault for the production. Yet we've all seen him literally overthrow and underthrow wide open players. You know, when the line has held up. We've seen him miss guys on the sidelines, and even through that atrocious unforced error INT against NE. You know, when the line held up. So when someone puts forth the assertion in question, and someone goes 'wait, here are these very obvious and well known failures that fly directly in the face of this' that should make someone pause. Because at that point since we're often not giving up a lot to the opposition TS isn't exactly being asked to do a whole lot. Hit wide open players deep, find the guys wide open on the middle of the field (he's missed a ton of those guys both in throws and in seeing them) and hit the sideline pass...it's bad.

Other QB's aren't crippled by a one sided offense with zero ability to run the ball. We are the most one-dimensional team I've ever seen. It's absurd to point to other QB's and say "hey, they do it, why can't our first year starter figure it out like they do" Our situation is different than most QB's ever have to face because we are pretty much putrid from top to bottom on offense. On top of that we have some of the worst playcalling I've ever seen as a fan...

Lots of changes need made and they start with the coaching staff. Possibly even Kubiak.

[BigDaddyBronco]

He might be serviceable. If everything is right and he has no adversity to overcome, he might be an okay game manager. It's really hard to put faith in a guy when I read that. It's even harder after watching him legitimately play awful football the past several weeks.

He has been shit the last few weeks, but I haven't given up on him or Lynch. At their price it just makes more sense to try and win with them and build a good line and running game. That with our D would make us the Ravens with Dilfer, or us last year. That shouldn't be that hard to achieve.

[Poet]

Other QB's aren't crippled by a one sided offense with zero ability to run the ball. We are the most one-dimensional team I've ever seen. It's absurd to point to other QB's and say "hey, they do it, why can't our first year starter figure it out like they do" Our situation is different than most QB's ever have to face because we are pretty much putrid from top to bottom on offense. On top of that we have some of the worst playcalling I've ever seen as a fan...

Lots of changes need made and they start with the coaching staff. Possibly even Kubiak.

It's absurd to point to other QB's in similar situations and go 'why can't our second year player do something similar? It's absurd to go 'why can't he hit these wide open players? It's absurd to ask 'why can't our second year player diagnose defenses better than a lot of pure rookies'?

It is absurd to expect anything from TS. Well, next year if the line is decent, we can run the ball, etc, I will be sure to take your stance to its logical conclusion and note that any QB could do well there and that whats the point of drafting a high round QB in that case.

We do agree on the coaching staff. Giving up on the run against KC was criminally stupid. Being unable to coach up more than one RB is absurd. The playcalling is also shit. Kubiak either was never an actual offensive guru, or is such a one trick pony that he no longer is.

[Poet]

He has been shit the last few weeks, but I haven't given up on him or Lynch. At their price it just makes more sense to try and win with them and build a good line and running game. That with our D would make us the Ravens with Dilfer, or us last year. That shouldn't be that hard to achieve.

I haven't given up on TS. I knew what he was, I know what he probably will become, and I know what he is now.

[Freyaka]

It's absurd to point to other QB's in similar situations and go 'why can't our second year player do something similar? It's absurd to go 'why can't he hit these wide open players? It's absurd to ask 'why can't our second year player diagnose defenses better than a lot of pure rookies'?

It is absurd to expect anything from TS. Well, next year if the line is decent, we can run the ball, etc, I will be sure to take your stance to its logical conclusion and note that any QB could do well there and that whats the point of drafting a high round QB in that case.

We do agree on the coaching staff. Giving up on the run against KC was criminally stupid. Being unable to coach up more than one RB is absurd. The playcalling is also shit. Kubiak either was never an actual offensive guru, or is such a one trick pony that he no longer is.

The problem is you expect him to play like a vet...he's not. It's one thing to have expectations of TS, it's another to set your expectations so high that few first year starters would meet them.

Rather than dogging him at every corner, the seasons over, lets just wait and see what the preseason brings. Either he grows and I was right to temper my expectations and give him more time or he looks no different than how he finished the season and you were right. It's a pointless debate. Personally I think you expect far too much out of him, but regardless, he's either going to grow into a quality starter or he'll not grow and we'll have to either hope for Paxton to pan out or someone else...Regardless we aren't going to agree this season on Trevor.

[MOtorboat]

It's absurd to point to other QB's in similar situations and go 'why can't our second year player do something similar? It's absurd to go 'why can't he hit these wide open players? It's absurd to ask 'why can't our second year player diagnose defenses better than a lot of pure rookies'?

It is absurd to expect anything from TS. Well, next year if the line is decent, we can run the ball, etc, I will be sure to take your stance to its logical conclusion and note that any QB could do well there and that whats the point of drafting a high round QB in that case.

We do agree on the coaching staff. Giving up on the run against KC was criminally stupid. Being unable to coach up more than one RB is absurd. The playcalling is also shit. Kubiak either was never an actual offensive guru, or is such a one trick pony that he no longer is.

No. It's not absurd at all to ask the quarterback to be the quarterback.

[Poet]

The problem is you expect him to play like a vet...he's not. It's one thing to have expectations of TS, it's another to set your expectations so high that few first year starters would meet them.

Rather than dogging him at every corner, the seasons over, lets just wait and see what the preseason brings. Either he grows and I was right to temper my expectations and give him more time or he looks no different than how he finished the season and you were right. It's a pointless debate. Personally I think you expect far too much out of him, but regardless, he's either going to grow into a quality starter or he'll not grow and we'll have to either hope for Paxton to pan out or someone else...Regardless we aren't going to agree this season on Trevor.

I expect him to put up some production. I don't expect 45 TD's, 4.8K yards, and an MVP award. It's not binary. Even if he gets better, I'm still right to look at some of the awfulness of this offense and go 'some of that is on him' and if it doesn't get better I'm still right but no more right than I am now.

[weazel]

My point is that it is really hard to judge a QB when he has 1.5 seconds or less to make a pass. Peyton could do it and masked many bad OLines with quick decision making and a quick release. Tom Brady can do it as well. Yea those guys are HOFers. Siemian might be serviceable if the right side of the line isn't a sieve (they left side isn't much better). Our RT made Vic Beasley look like Von Miller.

if you're going to throw out numbers... tned timed it, he has been getting 2+ seconds per attempt. There were times in the last game I watched (KC - Nov) near the end of the game he was getting well over 4 seconds and flinging the ball into the line. You're right, the O-Line sucks but lets not exaggerate facts. The line being bad doesnt make the QB good, why can't they both suck?

[Poet]

if you're going to throw out numbers... tned timed it, he has been getting 2+ seconds per attempt. There were times in the last game I watched (KC - Nov) near the end of the game he was getting well over 4 seconds and flinging the ball into the line. You're right, the O-Line sucks but lets not exaggerate facts. The line being bad doesnt make the QB good, why can't they both suck?

When they hit you with the 'well they were playing zone' don't forget to mention that zone coverages get gashed all the time and if you can't beat it you can't play. When they hit you with the 'well he's a first year starter' don't forget he had an entire year to study.

It's not so simple as 'bad line means no production/QB can't play badly' and 'zone coverage means QB losses'.


Stay strong.

[underrated29]

why can't they both suck?


They do!

RT right now is our biggest weakness. Followed very closely by QB. Followed closely by LT and G. Then we finally make our way down to ILB and DE and DT.


I have no doubt that we will keep Walker and sign 1 or 2 DT/DEs. I am praying, hoping, and doing anything else I can for us to sign a few good OL. Specifially T- or trade as in this draft, none are worth a first rd grade within our reach.

[MOtorboat]

if you're going to throw out numbers... tned timed it, he has been getting 2+ seconds per attempt. There were times in the last game I watched (KC - Nov) near the end of the game he was getting well over 4 seconds and flinging the ball into the line. You're right, the O-Line sucks but lets not exaggerate facts. The line being bad doesnt make the QB good, why can't they both suck?

He did the same thing this past Sunday. Plenty of time. Wings it into the line or well wide of the target.

[Poet]

he did the same thing this past sunday. Plenty of time. Wings it into the line or well wide of the target.

gg gg

[I Eat Staples]

Player for player trades almost never happen in the NFL, but I would not trade Shane Ray. He's a phenomenal talent that is going to be something special when he replaces Ware as a full-time player, probably early as next season.

[Mike]

Guy has similar rookie numbers to some pretty good QBs despite playing in a bad offense with a bad oline and no run game...but he just ain't got it. Gotta love developing QBs.

[NightTrainLayne]

He doesn't have to be a Hall of Fame quarterback to be good even under imperfect settings. That's utter crap. It's also complete bullshit that you can't evaluate a quarterback unless the line is good.

That said. The position Denver is in is to probably build the line and deal with mediocre to bad quarterback play and hope they can score just enough to let the defense win games. That's the position Denver is in.


Why doesn't anyone pushing Lynch vs. Siemien think that the coaching staff has evaluated the QB outside of the O-Line?

I have a hunch that they have.

Does that mean that Siemien is good? No. It doesn't.

What does it mean? It means that Siemien is ahead of Lynch in development.

Will he continue to stay ahead? That remains to be seen.

[NightTrainLayne]

No. The goal posts aren't moving. How is saying 'Hey, look, there's a differences in eras that is well documented by fans, analysts, talking heads, coaches, and the coaching committee' moving the goalposts? If we take that logic to heart then there weren't too many good QB's in the 70's because their numbers were drastically lower than what guys do now.

I'm not saying he's horrible. I don't understand why people thing strong criticism is an indictment of hatred. The board seems to have taken the notion of line play is important and turned it from a principle to a shibboleth.

Carr, Luck, Dalton, Brady & Palmer are a different era?

What's an era? Two seasons?

[MOtorboat]

Why doesn't anyone pushing Lynch vs. Siemien think that the coaching staff has evaluated the QB outside of the O-Line?

I have a hunch that they have.

Does that mean that Siemien is good? No. It doesn't.

What does it mean? It means that Siemien is ahead of Lynch in development.

Will he continue to stay ahead? That remains to be seen.

I'm not really pushing for Lynch, FYI. Although, I think he should be starting this week.

[I Eat Staples]

Lynch should definitely start. We have more to gain by losing the game than winning it anyway, so there's no reason to not use it as an evaluation game for a lot of young guys, especially our 1st round pick.

[NightTrainLayne]

I'm not really pushing for Lynch, FYI. Although, I think he should be starting this week.

Thanks for the clarification.

It seems many are pushing for Lynch, and it pushes others to point out the O-line problems etc., and the argument morphs into a false dichotomy.

I trust Kubiak (with Elway in the shadows as a plus) to put the best QB we have out there.

Siemien is better than Lynch at this point. There can really be no doubt of that fact, unless you don't trust Kubiak.

Siemien and/or Lynch (or anyone) would look worse behind this line than they would behind a serviceable line. There can really be no doubt of this fact either. Is there an O-line worse than ours in the league? I'd argue not, but I'm open to hearing who it might be.

Does good O-line play help, hurt or have no effect on QB play?



The team needs to fix the O-line first. Then, behind an improved O-line, we have two decent QB prospects to continue to evaluate. The best one will win out. They may or may not be the QBOTF. In that case, we have to go hunting again.

[Freyaka]

Lynch should definitely start. We have more to gain by losing the game than winning it anyway, so there's no reason to not use it as an evaluation game for a lot of young guys, especially our 1st round pick.

They have already said Trevor is starting against the raiders, but Paxton will play.

[MOtorboat]

Thanks for the clarification.

It seems many are pushing for Lynch, and it pushes others to point out the O-line problems etc., and the argument morphs into a false dichotomy.

I trust Kubiak (with Elway in the shadows as a plus) to put the best QB we have out there.

Siemien is better than Lynch at this point. There can really be no doubt of that fact, unless you don't trust Kubiak.

Siemien and/or Lynch (or anyone) would look worse behind this line than they would behind a serviceable line. There can really be no doubt of this fact either. Is there an O-line worse than ours in the league? I'd argue not, but I'm open to hearing who it might be.

Does good O-line play help, hurt or have no effect on QB play?



The team needs to fix the O-line first. Then, behind an improved O-line, we have two decent QB prospects to continue to evaluate. The best one will win out. They may or may not be the QBOTF. In that case, we have to go hunting again.

I trust Kubiak. A lot more than most people here, as it seems the consensus is that the offensive coaching extending up to Kubiak needs to be revisited. I think the talent needs to be revisited, and not just on the offensive line.

[NightTerror218]

Thanks for the clarification.

It seems many are pushing for Lynch, and it pushes others to point out the O-line problems etc., and the argument morphs into a false dichotomy.

I trust Kubiak (with Elway in the shadows as a plus) to put the best QB we have out there.

Siemien is better than Lynch at this point. There can really be no doubt of that fact, unless you don't trust Kubiak.

Siemien and/or Lynch (or anyone) would look worse behind this line than they would behind a serviceable line. There can really be no doubt of this fact either. Is there an O-line worse than ours in the league? I'd argue not, but I'm open to hearing who it might be.

Does good O-line play help, hurt or have no effect on QB play?



The team needs to fix the O-line first. Then, behind an improved O-line, we have two decent QB prospects to continue to evaluate. The best one will win out. They may or may not be the QBOTF. In that case, we have to go hunting again.

Seattle has a worse line but their QB is good enough to make up the diff and still lead team to post season.

[Freyaka]

I trust Kubiak. A lot more than most people here, as it seems the consensus is that the offensive coaching extending up to Kubiak needs to be revisited. I think the talent needs to be revisited, and not just on the offensive line.

I think it needs revisited from top to bottom. You don't get to be this bad without there being a bit of problems in column and and a bit in column b.... I was well on board with Kubiak until this month. The further we get into December, the more I'm ok with him being shown the door.

[Freyaka]

Seattle has a worse line but their QB is good enough to make up the diff and still lead team to post season.

They also have a better defense, better running game and WR's who can actually catch passes thrown their way and play in a far weaker division overall. They have one and 1/2 more wins than us...If we were an NFC team, we would still be in the playoff hunt potentially... Let's not act like they were head and sholders above us, they just have an easier road to the playoffs than we do. They are 9-5-1 and division leaders, we are 8-7 and third in our division behind a 12-3 team and 11-4 team. That makes a huge difference considering their closest competitor in division is 6-8-1

If we swap places with them in our division and us in theirs, they would be out of the playoffs and we would be going. So please, lets look at it honestly rather than acting like the QB made up the difference.

[underrated29]

Seattle has a worse line but their QB is good enough to make up the diff and still lead team to post season.


I disagree that their oline is worse then ours. Infact I think ours is probably the worst in the entire NFL.

I do agree that russel is good enough to scramble and make up a big difference. Their line is also very good at Run Blocking which is speaking latin in german to our guys.

[Freyaka]

I disagree that their oline is worse then ours. Infact I think ours is probably the worst in the entire NFL.

I do agree that russel is good enough to scramble and make up a big difference. Their line is also very good at Run Blocking which is speaking latin in german to our guys.

It's pretty dang close. They have more QB hits, the same number of sacks, but they have about 17 YPG more on rushing than we do for a difference of 4.0 YPC to our 3.6.

Their line is ass, just like ours is ass, but the difference isn't all on the QB's shoulders, like I pointed out above if you swapped divisions between us and them, we'd have made the playoffs too. They are the product of a crappy, crappy division and they are likely one and done in the playoffs, just like we would very likely be.

[MOtorboat]

They also have a better defense, better running game and WR's who can actually catch passes thrown their way and play in a far weaker division overall. They have one and 1/2 more wins than us...If we were an NFC team, we would still be in the playoff hunt potentially... Let's not act like they were head and sholders above us, they just have an easier road to the playoffs than we do. They are 9-5-1 and division leaders, we are 8-7 and third in our division behind a 12-3 team and 11-4 team. That makes a huge difference considering their closest competitor in division is 6-8-1

If we swap places with them in our division and us in theirs, they would be out of the playoffs and we would be going. So please, lets look at it honestly rather than acting like the QB made up the difference.

We have all-pros at wide receiver. There is zero issue at wide receiver.

[Freyaka]

We have all-pros at wide receiver. There is zero issue at wide receiver.

All pro's sure, but inconsistent all pros that catch when they feel like catching one game and then completely disappear from existence the next. Where did those all pros go this week? They would have been hugely helpful to have around.

[MOtorboat]

All pro's sure, but inconsistent all pros that catch when they feel like catching one game and then completely disappear from existence the next. Where did those all pros go this week? They would have been hugely helpful to have around.

I don't have a response to this that isn't rude because blaming the wide receivers in the Kansas City game is absurd. Have a nice day.

[Poet]

They also have a better defense, better running game and WR's who can actually catch passes thrown their way and play in a far weaker division overall. They have one and 1/2 more wins than us...If we were an NFC team, we would still be in the playoff hunt potentially... Let's not act like they were head and sholders above us, they just have an easier road to the playoffs than we do. They are 9-5-1 and division leaders, we are 8-7 and third in our division behind a 12-3 team and 11-4 team. That makes a huge difference considering their closest competitor in division is 6-8-1

If we swap places with them in our division and us in theirs, they would be out of the playoffs and we would be going. So please, lets look at it honestly rather than acting like the QB made up the difference.

Our defenses are comparable. They have worse WR's, that's absurd. They are shopping for RB's right now, too.

[underrated29]

It's pretty dang close. They have more QB hits, the same number of sacks, but they have about 17 YPG more on rushing than we do for a difference of 4.0 YPC to our 3.6.

Their line is ass, just like ours is ass, but the difference isn't all on the QB's shoulders, like I pointed out above if you swapped divisions between us and them, we'd have made the playoffs too. They are the product of a crappy, crappy division and they are likely one and done in the playoffs, just like we would very likely be.


I have no doubt that if we played in theirs we would be in the playoffs with a better record too. Of course they have a better QB which also helps. I still dont like seattle for beating us and losing to the pats.

[Freyaka]

I don't have a response to this that isn't rude because blaming the wide receivers in the Kansas City game is absurd. Have a nice day.

I agree that the WR's were blanketed, I agree that KC basically took them out of the game. That happens a lot here lately (it really shouldn't happen to all pro receivers) But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say "oh we have all pro receivers" and then not acknowledge that those receivers are pretty meaningless if they are completely covered and it's their job to get open.

The issue with our all pro receivers is even when they aren't completely shut down they pick and choose what they want to catch, again, rendering them less effective than what Seattle has to work with.

[Freyaka]

Our defenses are comparable. They have worse WR's, that's absurd. They are shopping for RB's right now, too.

And yet their running backs get better production than ours do. I'll agree that talent wise they have better WR's, but the issue is that ours are wildly inconsistent with that talent.

[Poet]

And yet their running backs get better production than ours do. I'll agree that talent wise they have better WR's, but the issue is that ours are wildly inconsistent with that talent.

You know how I feel about our RB's production. But their line is shitty. Our line is shitty. Their RB's aren't bastions of talent.

[Freyaka]

You know how I feel about our RB's production. But their line is shitty. Our line is shitty. Their RB's aren't bastions of talent.

No they aren't, I didn't say they were, but if we are to look at all things equal, they are getting slightly more out of their RB's.

Their turd may be more polished than ours, but it's still a turd. I get that, I'm just saying, even that slight uptick in RB production is huge to the overall balance of the offense.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate for me to say "they have better production out of their RB's than we do"

[Poet]

No they aren't, I didn't say they were, but if we are to look at all things equal, they are getting slightly more out of their RB's.

Their turd may be more polished than ours, but it's still a turd. I get that, I'm just saying, even that slight uptick in RB production is huge to the overall balance of the offense.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate for me to say "they have better production out of their RB's than we do"

I'm in agreement with you to an extent. I promise you, this posting thing isn't adversarial. Just relax.

[Freyaka]

I'm in agreement with you to an extent. I promise you, this posting thing isn't adversarial. Just relax.

I think you mistake my aggressive sarcasm as being worked up, we're good lol.

[Poet]

I think you mistake my aggressive sarcasm as being worked up, we're good lol.

I just want you to hold me.

[Freyaka]

I think we can all agree, reading emotions via text is a pain in the ass. I'm chill over here.

[Freyaka]

I just want you to hold me.

I can only hold so many people at once and Dave takes up a lot of holding space.

[Poet]

I can only hold so many people at once and Dave takes up a lot of holding space.

He's tiny. I weight 350. DSithc him and embrace you me youbeautiful bitch.

[Freyaka]

He's tiny. I weight 350. DSithc him and embrace you me youbeautiful bitch.

#GroupHug

[dogfish]

I'm not really pushing for Lynch, FYI.

so, you just like bitching about siemian?

:D

[MOtorboat]

so, you just like bitching about siemian?

:D

What else do we all do here? Bitch and complain and debate about the Broncos. I'm no different than anyone else.

Nothing we do or say has any bearing on anything.

[Hawgdriver]

What else do we all do here? Bitch and complain and debate about the Broncos. I'm no different than anyone else.

Nothing we do or say has any bearing on anything.

Why aren't you a lawyer, MO?

[NightTerror218]

Why aren't you a lawyer, MO?

Height requirement

[dogfish]

What else do we all do here? Bitch and complain and debate about the Broncos. I'm no different than anyone else.

Nothing we do or say has any bearing on anything.

i know, and you know i love you. . . that doesn't mean i can't troll you once in a while, you uppity midget!

:D

[MOtorboat]

i know, and you know i love you. . . that doesn't mean i can't troll you once in a while, you uppity midget!

:D

I know what you're doing.

:cool:

[Timmy!]

It's obvious that losing our FB tanked the season......and im only being 3/4 sarcastic.

[Hawgdriver]

It's obvious that losing our FB tanked the season......and im only being 3/4 sarcastic.

I'm fine with Kubiak, I guess. But I compare him to other elite coaches, and I feel he falls short of that ability to remain flexible to personnel limitations. But sometimes you can't win with a pair of deuces, no matter how good you bluff and play the bets.

[dogfish]

I'm fine with Kubiak, I guess. But I compare him to other elite coaches, and I feel he falls short of that ability to remain flexible to personnel limitations. But sometimes you can't win with a pair of deuces, no matter how good you bluff and play the bets.

agreed on both counts. . . i would argue that losing CJ hurt a lot more than janovich, but it certainly didn't help either. . . ya know, especially when all we got at tight end is a cold shit sandwich. . . when your offense sucks as thoroughly as ours did this year, i think you're nuts if you can't find some blame to spread around everywhere. . . no one did a good enough job on that side of the ball, from elway and russell down to the equipment dudes. . . kubes did a crap job of making adjustments, or doing basically anything schematically to hide weaknesses, or get get the O going. . . but yea, sometimes no play call is going to work when you can't block, throw, run OR catch well enough. . .

still, it'd be nice to see a fleaflicker or something like that BEFORE it's desperation time (in the game, as well as the season), and teams are looking for it. . .

[Valar Morghulis]

Val, that hi-five makes me think that you think that you are the vegan in my life. In reality, you're just the vegan that I'm in.

That's the only meat I eat

[MOtorboat]

agreed on both counts. . . i would argue that losing CJ hurt a lot more than janovich, but it certainly didn't help either. . . ya know, especially when all we got at tight end is a cold shit sandwich. . . when your offense sucks as thoroughly as ours did this year, i think you're nuts if you can't find some blame to spread around everywhere. . . no one did a good enough job on that side of the ball, from elway and russell down to the equipment dudes. . . kubes did a crap job of making adjustments, or doing basically anything schematically to hide weaknesses, or get get the O going. . . but yea, sometimes no play call is going to work when you can't block, throw, run OR catch well enough. . .

still, it'd be nice to see a fleaflicker or something like that BEFORE it's desperation time (in the game, as well as the season), and teams are looking for it. . .

I was just hoping for completions on something other than a screen...

[NightTerror218]

Losing CJ def killed the offense. Cj said himself he learned how to read defenses because of his time with manning. He was able to help read wherw a blitz was coming from.

Janovich was a beast of a lead blocker making great key blocks to spring some long runs early on.

I think the loss of these 2 crippled an already bad offense. Javo is an amazing blocker and cj is a good blocker but also able to help young QBs out as well. Jano was injured in the houston game with anderson.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Losing CJ def killed the offense. Cj said himself he learned how to read defenses because of his time with manning. He was able to help read wherw a blitz was coming from.

Janovich was a beast of a lead blocker making great key blocks to spring some long runs early on.

I think the loss of these 2 crippled an already bad offense. Javo is an amazing blocker and cj is a good blocker but also able to help young QBs out as well. Jano was injured in the houston game with anderson.

It's safe to say our blocking woes went beyond just the line, as you pointed out here. Having Green on a limited basis didn't help much either.

Our QB was just too green to make up for all of those deficiencies. Siemian has a long way to go before he can be the driving force behind an offense.

[Valar Morghulis]

What was Booker averaging per carry before janovich got injured?

[dogfish]

What was Booker averaging per carry before janovich got injured?

come on, dave! don't curse booker like you did cody. . . :laugh:

[Valar Morghulis]

come on, dave! don't curse booker like you did cody. . . :laugh:

And Montee ball

[Hawgdriver]

What was Booker averaging per carry before janovich got injured?

Janovich was taking 40% snaps during the first four games, then basically none after (except ST). Over these 4 games, Booker ran 23 times for 92 yards, 4.0 ypc. CJ was 73 carries, 245 yards, 3.5 ypc. After Janovich quit taking offensive snaps, games 5-7, Booker took 28 snaps for 152 yards, 5.4 ypc, and CJ took 37 snaps for 185 yards, 5.0 ypc.

[dogfish]

And Montee ball

lol! nah, i think he was probably doomed from the start. . .

[NightTerror218]

Janovich was taking 40% snaps during the first four games, then basically none after (except ST). Over these 4 games, Booker ran 23 times for 92 yards, 4.0 ypc. CJ was 73 carries, 245 yards, 3.5 ypc. After Janovich quit taking offensive snaps, games 5-7, Booker took 28 snaps for 152 yards, 5.4 ypc, and CJ took 37 snaps for 185 yards, 5.0 ypc.

He played 11 games. 7 of those games he played 40% or more of those snaps. Games 5 and 6 he played less then went back up thw following games.

[MOtorboat]

Janovich was taking 40% snaps during the first four games, then basically none after (except ST). Over these 4 games, Booker ran 23 times for 92 yards, 4.0 ypc. CJ was 73 carries, 245 yards, 3.5 ypc. After Janovich quit taking offensive snaps, games 5-7, Booker took 28 snaps for 152 yards, 5.4 ypc, and CJ took 37 snaps for 185 yards, 5.0 ypc.

Must...not...comment...

[dogfish]

Must...not...comment...

9941

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

9941

😂😂😂

[MOtorboat]

9941

...the fullback will fix everything, they said...

[Poet]

He was useful at times, though?

[Hawgdriver]

Must...not...comment...

Go for it. I didn't draw anything out of those numbers except that the run game appeared to improve when Janovich took fewer offensive snaps.

[MOtorboat]

Go for it. I didn't draw anything out of those numbers except that the run game appeared to improve when Janovich took fewer offensive snaps.

I'm just messing with people. We all know fullbacks aren't as valuable as people imagine. :D

[dogfish]

I'm just messing with people. We all know fullbacks aren't as valuable as people imagine. :D

you're going to regret this stance when mastershake gets your "I <3 Fullbacks" sig completed!

[MOtorboat]

you're going to regret this stance when mastershake gets your "I <3 Fullbacks" sig completed!

#wastedrosterspot

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

#wastedrosterspot

#he'splayingpossum

[Hawgdriver]

I'm just messing with people. We all know fullbacks aren't as valuable as people imagine. :D

I figure he's an athlete, regardless of position title, he should be on the roster if he helps the team win more than the 54th guy.

[MOtorboat]

I figure he's an athlete, regardless of position title, he should be on the roster if he helps the team win more than the 54th guy.

I would argue Denver could use an extra defensive tackle over fullback, and could be more creative offensively, both in schematic design and player evaluation (i.e., an H-back, capable of playing tight end on the line, fullback and running every pass route in the playbook).

[Hawgdriver]

I would argue Denver could use an extra defensive tackle over fullback, and could be more creative offensively, both in schematic design and player evaluation (i.e., an H-back, capable of playing tight end on the line, fullback and running every pass route in the playbook).

Perhaps. The title FB suggests a pigeonhole that constrains playcalling and scheme. That is my main concern with 2016 offense, that is, template-based inflexibility. But strip the FB label, let it be a 60+% snap skill player that contributes above average expected points without hogtying range of possible playcalls, I see no problem.

[Hawgdriver]

You clarified after I started my reply and it sounds like we are singing the same tune in different keys.

[MOtorboat]

You clarified after I started my reply and it sounds like we are singing the same tune in different keys.

My original post, without the addition is there. It only took me about 30 seconds to be more specific, not sure why it only shows up in your quote.

[Hawgdriver]

My original post, without the addition is there. It only took me about 30 seconds to be more specific, not sure why it only shows up in your quote.

Black Mirror, here we come.

[NightTerror218]

There are 27bteams that use FB. Of those 27 8 appear to have FB on rookie contracts. 4 of the top 5 rushers in the league have a FB with exception to AZ.

[Simple Jaded]

I would argue Denver could use an extra defensive tackle over fullback, and could be more creative offensively, both in schematic design and player evaluation (i.e., an H-back, capable of playing tight end on the line, fullback and running every pass route in the playbook).

How bout some DL's instead of some of the 10 useless WR's?

[Poet]

How bout some DL's instead of some of the 10 useless WR's?

I think Mo would say you can cut the worthless WR's and the (in his opinion) worthless FB.

I don't know if the FB is worthless. I've not been persuaded either way.

[dogfish]

Perhaps. The title FB suggests a pigeonhole that constrains playcalling and scheme. That is my main concern with 2016 offense, that is, template-based inflexibility. But strip the FB label, let it be a 60+% snap skill player that contributes above average expected points without hogtying range of possible playcalls, I see no problem.

we'll refer to andy as a three-quatersback from now on. . . solved!

[Simple Jaded]

I think Mo would say you can cut the worthless WR's and the (in his opinion) worthless FB.

I don't know if the FB is worthless. I've not been persuaded either way.

America loves FB's, does that persuade you?