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Tned
10-10-2016, 08:40 AM
Ok, multiple people have been claiming the loss can at least in part be attributed to play calling. Spikerman made the statement in the sick Kubes thread that they should have at least tried to pass on first and second down. I quickly, from my tablet while in bad, tallied up the number of passes on first and second down, and posted it in response.

Gem, rightfully so, suggested that we take the discussion about Kube's play calling out of the Kubes taken to hospital thread.

So, I'm curious about the specific criticism people had about the play calling, and what they would have liked to see done differently.

To get the ball rolling, here's Spikerman's post and my response from the other thread.


How about throwing more often on first and second down? The run game was going nowhere. Play calling is just not that difficult and doesn't require an advanced degree.

I think 33 times is about as often as you can ask for.

They had 44 or so passing plays (including sacks and penalties) and 33 of those pass plays were attempted on first or second down.

They passed a ton on first and second down, they just weren't effective.

iLands
10-10-2016, 08:49 AM
They should have called more completions.

Damn play callers, calling those sacks.

Slick
10-10-2016, 09:31 AM
I don't watch the games as closely as I have in the past. One eye on the TV and one on the baby.

The o line and the inaccurate passes doomed the day from what I can tell.

Did they go shotgun much? Any screens or easy passes for the rookie? I felt like Gary might have made some second half adjustments to help his rookie in his first start but it didn't seem that way.
I don't think we can blame the playcalling as much as the simple lack of execution on the offense as a whole.

Paxton stunk it up yesterday. Maybe he was nervous in front of the home crowd because he didn't look nervous in Tampa.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2016, 09:34 AM
I don't watch the games as closely as I have in the past. One eye on the TV and one on the baby.

The o line and the inaccurate passes doomed the day from what I can tell.

Did they go shotgun much? Any screens or easy passes for the rookie? I felt like Gary might have made some second half adjustments to help his rookie in his first start but it didn't seem that way.
I don't think we can blame the playcalling as much as the simple lack of execution on the offense as a whole.

Paxton stunk it up yesterday. Maybe he was nervous in front of the home crowd because he didn't look nervous in Tampa.

Paxton's inconsistency was only part of it. The other issue was the RT got abused....all.day.long.

Slick
10-10-2016, 09:39 AM
The RT wasn't the only o lineman getting abused. They failed miserably on 3rd and 1 twice. The guards and the center didn't have good days either.

wayninja
10-10-2016, 09:41 AM
I think it's pretty simple. If they win, then they did what I want.

If they lose, they should have done something different.

Sorry folks, I'm not for hire.

CoachChaz
10-10-2016, 09:41 AM
Paxton's inconsistency was only part of it. The other issue was the RT got abused....all.day.long.

I listened to a good portion of the game on the radio (travelling) with the Atlanta broadcast team. Even they were wondering how the hell Schofield has an NFL job. They eventually got to the point where they started feeling bad for him more than being happy about another sack or negative penalty yardage.

broncofaninfla
10-10-2016, 10:00 AM
It didn't look like Lynch made any protection adjustments at the line of scrimmage which didn't help the putrid play of the oline. I wasn't impressed with the play calling either, very predictable play calling and too stubborn about trying to force the run when it was obvious it wasn't going to happen with the oline we fielded Sunday. With that said, Sambialo is awful at RT. Hopefully he can play better at guard because he's awful at RT.

GEM
10-10-2016, 10:09 AM
The play calling means shit if the players can't do anything. The oline couldn't run block, couldn't pass protect and you have a rookie QB in his first start looking like, well, a rookie. They targeted the right side of the line and it worked, emphatically well. The biggest thing I put on the coaches is having Sambraillo on the field. How do you put a guy with one arm on the field as the starter? I get it, no depth, well that's on the upper management.

spikerman
10-10-2016, 10:10 AM
So, here is my issue. It's not so much throwing more on first down, it's consistently putting a rookie QB in long yardage situations by trying to run on second and 10 (for example). Denver's offensive line stinks out loud. Early on it became obvious that Atlanta's terrible defensive line was still superior to the Broncos up front, but they still tried to force the issue and put an obviously unprepared Lynch in bad situations. But, I get it; I'll be the bad guy for criticizing the play calling. Denver was beaten in many phases of the game, but I don't think the coaches helped them out.

Tned
10-10-2016, 10:13 AM
It didn't look like Lynch made any protection adjustments at the line of scrimmage which didn't help the putrid play of the oline. I wasn't impressed with the play calling either, very predictable play calling and too stubborn about trying to force the run when it was obvious it wasn't going to happen with the oline we fielded Sunday. With that said, Sambialo is awful at RT. Hopefully he can play better at guard because he's awful at RT.

Without having the time to fully chart it, it looks like they passed on first and second down about 60-70% of the time, that's not exactly forcing the run.

On third and one, they were betting on a bad run game vs. Inaccurate QB.

NightTrainLayne
10-10-2016, 10:14 AM
Does anyone consider that the players on the field, and their capabilities impact what plays the play-caller calls?

No?

I think it has a huge effect. With the right side of our line playing with their hands tied behind their back (by their own inability), and a rookie QB making his first start. .. . The entire playbook was not available.

This is something that speaks to Siemian's intelligence and abilities. Most of the playbook has been open with Siemian in, and even more in our first two games before Stephenson's injury undid the whole right side of the line.

When we get Stephenson back, and Siemian, our play-calling will improve dramatically. All of a sudden Kubiak et al will be great play-callers again, remembering all kinds of things that they "forgot" yesterday.

spikerman
10-10-2016, 10:18 AM
Does anyone consider that the players on the field, and their capabilities impact what plays the play-caller calls?

No?

I think it has a huge effect. With the right side of our line playing with their hands tied behind their back (by their own inability), and a rookie QB making his first start. .. . The entire playbook was not available.

This is something that speaks to Siemian's intelligence and abilities. Most of the playbook has been open with Siemian in, and even more in our first two games before Stephenson's injury undid the whole right side of the line.

When we get Stephenson back, and Siemian, our play-calling will improve dramatically. All of a sudden Kubiak et al will be great play-callers again, remembering all kinds of things that they "forgot" yesterday.

I don't know man. It looked pretty available last week after Siemian got hurt.

CoachChaz
10-10-2016, 10:25 AM
So, here is my issue. It's not so much throwing more on first down, it's consistently putting a rookie QB in long yardage situations by trying to run on second and 10 (for example). Denver's offensive line stinks out loud. Early on it became obvious that Atlanta's terrible defensive line was still superior to the Broncos up front, but they still tried to force the issue and put an obviously unprepared Lynch in bad situations. But, I get it; I'll be the bad guy for criticizing the play calling. Denver was beaten in many phases of the game, but I don't think the coaches helped them out.

The Broncos just dont have the right personnel...IMO. Relying on journeymen, swing players. low round picks to protect young QB's is not the best way to run an effective offense. That can't always be on the coaches as they most likely have to work with the talent they are handed. The OL has either been injured and lacking depth or simply devoid of talent during Elway's tenure. That's either on him or on the scouts he employs, but something has to change.

The OL talent in the draft isnt extremely deep this year, so hopefully the Boss can find some help in a talented FA pool. Paradis is serviceable and Okung looks like a candidate to extend (so far), but the other 3 spots are up for grabs in my opinion.

NightTrainLayne
10-10-2016, 10:40 AM
I don't know man. It looked pretty available last week after Siemian got hurt.

When we had a >10 point lead most of the time, and the defense was pitching a shut-out? It makes a difference.

Northman
10-10-2016, 10:44 AM
Paxton stunk it up yesterday. Maybe he was nervous in front of the home crowd because he didn't look nervous in Tampa.

Yea, there were a lot of different problems but it was clear he was not ready in that game. So many rookie mistakes on his part but he will eventually grow out of it i hope. At least we dont have to hear about how bad Siemien is anymore after that debacle.

Slick
10-10-2016, 10:47 AM
No one has said that Siemian was bad, North.

Valar Morghulis
10-10-2016, 10:47 AM
They should have called more completions. Damn play callers, calling those sacks.

iLands is fast becoming my favorite poster. Genius

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 10:49 AM
Yea, there were a lot of different problems but it was clear he was not ready in that game. So many rookie mistakes on his part but he will eventually grow out of it i hope. At least we dont have to hear about how bad Siemien is anymore after that debacle.

North you have reached troll level on this debate. Not one ****ing person has once said that Siemian is bad. Is he your cousin or something?

Northman
10-10-2016, 10:51 AM
North you have reached troll level on this debate. Not one ****ing person has once said that Siemian is bad. Is he your cousin or something?

You seem pretty defensive.

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 10:54 AM
You seem pretty defensive.

Not half as defensive as you have been about this non-existent criticism of Siemian.

Northman
10-10-2016, 10:56 AM
Not half as defensive as you have been about this non-existent criticism of Siemian.

Uh huh. If it doesnt apply to you than you are good right?

Slick
10-10-2016, 10:56 AM
North you have reached troll level on this debate. Not one ****ing person has once said that Siemian is bad. Is he your cousin or something?

Tned and North are making me wish for a game where Siemian starts and his RT is on roller skates and the rest of the o line not to run block for shit.

WARHORSE
10-10-2016, 10:56 AM
If we end up starting the kid more this year for whatever reason, more shotgun with the kid please. Its his comfort zone at this point whether Kubes likes it or not.

By the end of the game he looked ready to cry.

Im not fired up about what I saw on his face after getting beat up a little.

Lets hope he didnt get much sleep due to nerves....yes, agreed. Lets blame lack of sleep.

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 10:57 AM
Uh huh. If it doesnt apply to you than you are good right?

I don't even know what the hell you are talking about right now.

Northman
10-10-2016, 10:57 AM
Tned and North are making me wish for a game where Siemian starts and his RT is on roller skates and the rest of the o line not to run block for shit.

Siemien hasnt had perfect blocking in the games he has played in. But as pointed out he is the better of the two at this point in time.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2016, 11:09 AM
Tned and North are making me wish for a game where Siemian starts and his RT is on roller skates and the rest of the o line not to run block for shit.

Slick, have you forgotten how Siemian got hurt?


Siemien hasnt had perfect blocking in the games he has played in. But as pointed out he is the better of the two at this point in time.



Siemian has a much faster release and is much better at understanding the play while trying to diagnose what the defense is doing. Conversely, Lynch has a nice release, but he takes much deeper drops and isn't as fast at getting the ball out. He's got immense potential, but right now he's just no where near as productive Siemian is, not even close. There's little to no chance we would have won the Carolina game if he was starting.

Northman
10-10-2016, 11:12 AM
Slick, have you forgotten how Siemian got hurt?





Siemian has a much faster release and is much better at understanding the play while trying to diagnose what the defense is doing. Conversely, Lynch has a nice release, but he takes much deeper drops and isn't as fast at getting the ball out. He's got immense potential, but right now he's just no where near as productive Siemian is, not even close. There's little to no chance we would have won the Carolina game if he was starting.

Agree 100%.

Canmore
10-10-2016, 11:21 AM
If we end up starting the kid more this year for whatever reason, more shotgun with the kid please. Its his comfort zone at this point whether Kubes likes it or not.

By the end of the game he looked ready to cry.

Im not fired up about what I saw on his face after getting beat up a little.

Lets hope he didnt get much sleep due to nerves....yes, agreed. Lets blame lack of sleep.

Agreed. I had this discussion with my son last night.

wayninja
10-10-2016, 11:25 AM
We are going to have to redesign the offense for 1 guy????

THE HUMANITY! THE CIRCUS!!!

Valar Morghulis
10-10-2016, 12:11 PM
North pissed all over waves chips in this thread lol

Northman
10-10-2016, 12:13 PM
North pissed all over waves chips in this thread lol

#Northstyling

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 12:25 PM
North pissed all over waves chips in this thread lol

**** you Dave! Why don't you go eat one of your soggy biscuits?

Valar Morghulis
10-10-2016, 12:34 PM
**** you Dave! Why don't you go eat one of your soggy biscuits?

You wanna play?

Northman
10-10-2016, 12:35 PM
**** you Dave! Why don't you go eat one of your soggy biscuits?

Got to give it to Wave, that shit was funny there ^

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 12:36 PM
You wanna play?

Maybe you and North can play, you two might as well be giving each other a wank as it is. :D

Valar Morghulis
10-10-2016, 12:38 PM
Maybe you and North can play, you two might as well be giving each other a wank as it is. :D

Jealous?

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 12:39 PM
Jealous?

A little. :(

Tned
10-10-2016, 12:39 PM
No one has said that Siemian was bad, North.

No, just implied what he's doing is average, dink and dunk, team would have done just as good with Lynch, etc.

spikerman
10-10-2016, 12:42 PM
No, just implied what he's doing is average, dink and dunk, team would have done just as good with Lynch, etc.
Tom Brady lives on dink and dunk.

Tned
10-10-2016, 12:42 PM
Uh huh. If it doesnt apply to you than you are good right?

Then why is he so defensive? Wasn't it him that said Dak is proof that Lynch could succeed and do as well as Siemian?

Tned
10-10-2016, 12:46 PM
Tom Brady lives on dink and dunk.

Not too mention, when you aren't getting good pass protection, taking the short or hot route is critical to slow down the rush and get first downs.

wayninja
10-10-2016, 12:47 PM
tom brady lives on neil and bob.

fify

spikerman
10-10-2016, 12:51 PM
fify

Zing!!!!!! :nixon:

OrangeHoof
10-10-2016, 01:41 PM
I just want to see the Broncos win and if we had to sacrifice a non-conference game to get our rookie some experience, I'm not too upset by it. He began rallying at the end (yes, that was partly prevent defense), but it probably helped him gain experience.

I hope Siemian is ready for Thursday.

Slick
10-10-2016, 02:45 PM
Lets just discount that the team had 280 yards rushing in the first two games. That's fair.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2016, 02:46 PM
Lets just discount that the team had 280 yards rushing in the first two games. That's fair.

Stephenson and Green make a big difference.

Slick
10-10-2016, 02:54 PM
Stephenson and Green make a big difference.

Absolutely.

broncofaninfla
10-10-2016, 02:56 PM
I think what frustrates me the most is we almost always try to run the ball up the gut on a third and 1 and rarely seem to convert. It's predictable play calling, as if they are going to keep calling the same play until they execute and get it right.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-10-2016, 04:39 PM
Something that irked me a little yesterday besides the pass protection was the run blocking. Not so much that it stunk but it seemed that we kept going to the wrong side. For some reason we tried to run behind Sambrailo and Schofield more than Okung and Garcia. It was almost insane. They are struggling at pass blocking, so let's run behind them the majority of the time? Didn't make a lot of sense to me. Also, we could see how badly Sam and Scho were getting beaten, yet we never kept a TE in to even chip or had a RB stay home to aid in pass protection.

Lynch also must do a better job at a) stepping up in the pocket and b) keeping his eyes downfield. You could see him going through progressions, which was good, but he couldn't "feel" pressure from his right that he could've just stepped up to avoid. When he did break contain, he always looked to run vice just buying a second or two for a guy to uncover. Most of the sacks he took could've and should've been avoided had he stepped up into the gap that Beasley created going wide on Sam and then just rolling to his right where he could've delivered the pass. Hopefully he'll get coached up on this.

OrangeHoof
10-10-2016, 04:40 PM
I think what frustrates me the most is we almost always try to run the ball up the gut on a third and 1 and rarely seem to convert. It's predictable play calling, as if they are going to keep calling the same play until they execute and get it right.

It was the same way in Houston. 3rd-and-1 and the PA might as well have announced "We're running behind left tackle with Arian Foster." because it never failed to be true.

EastCoastBronco
10-10-2016, 05:04 PM
I know this is a bit off topic but one of the major reasons for the loss was that our D got abused.
With a rookie starting the D needed to stand on its head...again.
And they didn't.

Northman
10-10-2016, 05:16 PM
Got to love it when one QB plays its everyone else around him as to why he succeeds. When another QB plays its everyone else's fault that he doesnt. lmao

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 05:17 PM
I know this is a bit off topic but one of the major reasons for the loss was that our D got abused.
With a rookie starting the D needed to stand on its head...again.
And they didn't.

Abused? Other than our typically early-game shitty drive, they only scored 1 TD the rest of the game, and that was off the short field from Paxton's pick. Considering they were on the field almost all day, they didn't do half bad.

Their RBs did torch us in the passing game, but we buckled down when it counted for the most part.

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 05:18 PM
Got to love it when one QB plays its everyone else around him as to why he succeeds. When another QB plays its everyone else's fault that he doesnt. lmao

Wouldn't that be a consistent viewpoint though? In both cases one would be saying that the success or failure of a QB depends on those around him.

Northman
10-10-2016, 05:19 PM
Wouldn't that be a consistent viewpoint though? In both cases one would be saying that the success or failure of a QB depends on those around him.

Are you implying that all QB's are the same caliber of player and only succeed because of those around him?

EastCoastBronco
10-10-2016, 05:22 PM
Abused? Other than our typically early-game shitty drive, they only scored 1 TD the rest of the game, and that was off the short field from Paxton's pick. Considering they were on the field almost all day, they didn't do half bad.

Their RBs did torch us in the passing game, but we buckled down when it counted for the most part.

Maybe abused was a bit harsh.
They definitely had a sub par day compared to their normal level of destruction...

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 05:23 PM
Are you implying that all QB's are the same caliber of player and only succeed because of those around him?

No, but it is a team game and QBs typically do get an excessive amount of the blame for losses and credit for wins. You post seemed to imply that those two different viewpoints are contradictory. But they are in fact consistent if nothing else.

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 05:24 PM
Maybe abused was a bit harsh.
They definitely had a sub par day compared to their normal level of destruction...

Fair enough, but the other guys get paid too, and the D can't be perfect every week. Atlanta might be the most talented offensive team we play all season and we still held them to 23. That was well below their average. The D will be fine.

Northman
10-10-2016, 05:25 PM
You post seemed to imply that those two different viewpoints are contradictory. But they are in fact consistent if nothing else.

I think they are contradictory when you try to use it as a way to discount one QB while excusing another. I agree with you that what happens around them is important but at the same time one shouldnt be discrediting one player just to try and prop up another using that format.

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 05:28 PM
I think they are contradictory when you try to use it as a way to discount one QB while excusing another. I agree with you that what happens around them is important but at the same time one shouldnt be discrediting one player just to try and prop up another using that format.

Yeah, but in both cases they are saying the surrounding team is responsible for the QB play, so that isn't contradictory. What would be contradictory is if they gave all the credit to the QB who did well, but blamed the surrounding cast for the one who did poorly.

MOtorboat
10-10-2016, 06:21 PM
Got to love it when one QB plays its everyone else around him as to why he succeeds. When another QB plays its everyone else's fault that he doesnt. lmao

Who wasn't giving credit for Siemian for playing well, especially after the Cincinnati game?

You and Tned continue to try and make this Siemian against Broncos fan argument that simply doesn't exist.

The whole offense was shit yesterday. The quarterback, the offensive line, the running backs, the wide receivers, the play callers. The whole thing was a disaster, so I mean, I guess we could pin that on the quarterback, but that'd be kind of lazy and not very consistent with what happened.

BroncoWave
10-10-2016, 06:27 PM
Who wasn't giving credit for Siemian for playing well, especially after the Cincinnati game?

You and Tned continue to try and make this Siemian against Broncos fan argument that simply doesn't exist.

The whole offense was shit yesterday. The quarterback, the offensive line, the running backs, the wide receivers, the play callers. The whole thing was a disaster, so I mean, I guess we could pin that on the quarterback, but that'd be kind of lazy and not very consistent with what happened.

Northman has this convoluted idea that people saying Lynch should be the starter if he came in and just lit it up is akin to saying you hate Siemian and think he should be benched. It's incredible, really.

Tned
10-10-2016, 06:35 PM
I think they are contradictory when you try to use it as a way to discount one QB while excusing another. I agree with you that what happens around them is important but at the same time one shouldnt be discrediting one player just to try and prop up another using that format.

That's the key. It's the excuse for Lynch's failure, and a way to diminish the fact Siemian is doing things unprecedented by a first time Broncos starter (and for some things, any first time starter.

Tned
10-10-2016, 06:46 PM
Who wasn't giving credit for Siemian for playing well, especially after the Cincinnati game?

You and Tned continue to try and make this Siemian against Broncos fan argument that simply doesn't exist.

The whole offense was shit yesterday. The quarterback, the offensive line, the running backs, the wide receivers, the play callers. The whole thing was a disaster, so I mean, I guess we could pin that on the quarterback, but that'd be kind of lazy and not very consistent with what happened.

When people look at what Siemian did in his first three career starts and then start talking about how we should be starting Lynch or criticizing him as an Orton dink and dunker, then yes it's an unrealistic (and out of touch) criticism.

tripp
10-10-2016, 06:51 PM
As dodgy as the play calling was yesterday, my only concern now is, who will be doing the play calling against SD? I've been under the impression Kubes has been doing the play calling, so now is it down to the OC? Am I supposed to feel confident he will call a good game considering he hasn't before with Siemian?


Also, I think we're lying to ourselves if we think the game on Thursday will be night and day compared to yesterdays game. SD will try to further expose our flaws, thank god they don't have Danny Woodhead, he would've torched us. I have faith Wade Phillips will correct these issues, but the concern is that this has been an issue long before Atlanta came to town, and it appears nothing has changed yet...

tripp
10-10-2016, 06:55 PM
I know this is a bit off topic but one of the major reasons for the loss was that our D got abused.
With a rookie starting the D needed to stand on its head...again.
And they didn't.

Kept Atlanta to 23 pts, the best offensive team in the NFL this year. Our offense went up against one of the worst defenses in the NFL this year, that's the glaring issue, I think the defense did a good enough job to win in the NFL.

spikerman
10-10-2016, 07:22 PM
As dodgy as the play calling was yesterday, my only concern now is, who will be doing the play calling against SD? I've been under the impression Kubes has been doing the play calling, so now is it down to the OC? Am I supposed to feel confident he will call a good game considering he hasn't before with Siemian?


Also, I think we're lying to ourselves if we think the game on Thursday will be night and day compared to yesterdays game. SD will try to further expose our flaws, thank god they don't have Danny Woodhead, he would've torched us. I have faith Wade Phillips will correct these issues, but the concern is that this has been an issue long before Atlanta came to town, and it appears nothing has changed yet...
I'm hoping that with somebody else calling the plays for one week it will serve as a "trend buster." You know that SD has been studying Coach K's tendencies. They can throw that tape out the window. This is the optimist in me coming out. Hopefully he's ready and fired up to take back over next week.

tripp
10-10-2016, 07:34 PM
I'm hoping that with somebody else calling the plays for one week it will serve as a "trend buster." You know that SD has been studying Coach K's tendencies. They can throw that tape out the window. This is the optimist in me coming out. Hopefully he's ready and fired up to take back over next week.

I will be optimistic about this as well, because I don't think the play calling has been a masterful performance by any stretch and I think a different look will help.

spikerman
10-10-2016, 07:40 PM
I will be optimistic about this as well, because I don't think the play calling has been a masterful performance by any stretch and I think a different look will help.

Troublemaker. :D

MOtorboat
10-10-2016, 09:04 PM
When people look at what Siemian did in his first three career starts and then start talking about how we should be starting Lynch or criticizing him as an Orton dink and dunker, then yes it's an unrealistic (and out of touch) criticism.

Well, for the most part, I think you're turning the collective want to see a first round quarterback in action as a referendum on Siemian's play when I don't think that's the case. After two games, where he threw one pass over 15 yards (I'm going on memory, so it may be two, maybe three, either way it wasn't many), the question was posed and I don't think it was out of touch in any way. They went deep with him in game three and that perception changed dramatically I would say. Does he have the arm strength of Lynch? Absolutely not, but he appears to be better right now. Lynch looked composed against Tampa and not at all composed against Atlanta and his passes were poorly thrown and panicked. Because of that, there's no doubt Siemian will start the rest the way if healthy.

Tned
10-10-2016, 09:57 PM
Well, for the most part, I think you're turning the collective want to see a first round quarterback in action as a referendum on Siemian's play when I don't think that's the case. After two games, where he threw one pass over 15 yards (I'm going on memory, so it may be two, maybe three, either way it wasn't many), the question was posed and I don't think it was out of touch in any way. They went deep with him in game three and that perception changed dramatically I would say. Does he have the arm strength of Lynch? Absolutely not, but he appears to be better right now. Lynch looked composed against Tampa and not at all composed against Atlanta and his passes were poorly thrown and panicked. Because of that, there's no doubt Siemian will start the rest the way if healthy.

Lynch was the 6th most inaccurate passer in his debut against TB, so while I agree he looked more composed, he was no more accurate. I also am eager to see the QBOTF in waiting, but at the same time I'm a realist and realize what Siemian is doing would be nearly unprecedented if not for what Wentz and Prescott are doing at nearly the same time.

I won't regurg the stats I posted several other times, but they are pretty staggering for any player making his first 3 (now four) starts, and the fact he's a seventh rounder, is even more so.

I still say that if you ripped his name and number off his jersey and put the name/number of a 1st or 2nd round pick on there, you guys would be doing back flips. There are simply not many QBs that have started their NFL careers as well as he has. We don't really know what his ceiling really is, because he was bitten by the injury bug in college (early returns are the same in the pros, so that might be his true ceiling).

Does he have the cannon that Lynch has? No. Does he have what is clearly more than adequate, and probably above average, arm strength? Yes. His mechanics and ball are beautiful. He has a VERY quick release (Thursday night football said among the fastest they had ever recorded), and as Kubiak said, they were calling and hew as taking, what the defense gave them.

The difference between fans and coaches is that the coaches don't want him to hang on to the ball and hope someone comes open deep or throw it into double or triple coverage like Lynch is doing, but instead take the play that is there. Against Cincy that included some deep throws. Against Indy, they kept players deep to prevent any open receivers and when a receiver did get by their DBs, they tackled them and got PIs, which is why Kubiak said that but for the PIs, he would have had over 300 yards passing.

It's work noting that Siemian went deeper against Indy than Stafford did, who isn't exactly known as a dink and dunker.

I have to shake my head at the fact I've read multiple times that his success against Cincy has to be taken with a grain of salt, because he was able to throw against single coverage on those deep passes. It's like our fans think that what Lynch is doing and throwing into double and triple coverage is a "good" thing.

What a good QB does is finds those times when a good receiver is matched up one on one and exposes it, he doesn't chuck and pray.

MOtorboat
10-10-2016, 10:02 PM
There is no one here against Trevor Siemian.

And that first round thing you keep spouting is just laughable. People roast first round draft picks.

Tned
10-10-2016, 10:07 PM
There is no one here against Trevor Siemian.

And that first round thing you keep spouting is just laughable. People roast first round draft picks.

I didn't say they don't roast them, I'm saying that anyone that has watched a few decades worth of football knows that when first/second round pick plays as good as Siemian did his first four games, they are VERY happy, because most of them start off like we just saw with Lynch.

You, like many sports reporters and many on this forum, are so invested in your early belief (I had it as well) that there was no way that a QB with that horrible a college history was going to be quality NFL starter, that you couldn't see what was happening in front of your eyes.

Hey, he may come crashing back to earth and start playing like shit (or like Lynch if you will), or what we are seeing may be his absolute peak, which he hit at four games, instead of say 2-4 years like many QBs. It's too early to tell, but I for one am not looking the gift horse in the mouth and am just ******* tickled pink that our seventh round pick is playing better than the $72 million man in Houston and about 75% of the quarterbacks in the league this year.

Hawgdriver
10-10-2016, 10:09 PM
Paxton's inconsistency was only part of it. The other issue was the RT got abused....all.day.long.

My issue with playcalling is it never accounted for Lynch's dropback and inability to pass pro at RT. Why not have QB roll left or call draw toward RT?

Hawgdriver
10-10-2016, 10:12 PM
Lynch looked composed against Tampa and not at all composed against Atlanta and his passes were poorly thrown and panicked.

That's my litmus for NFL readiness. Does the dude shit the bed when bullets are flying and the enemy is overrunning your position? Lynch didn't pass it.

tripp
10-10-2016, 10:14 PM
Does he have the cannon that Lynch has? No. Does he have what is clearly more than adequate, and probably above average, arm strength? Yes. His mechanics and ball are beautiful. He has a VERY quick release (Thursday night football said among the fastest they had ever recorded), and as Kubiak said, they were calling and hew as taking, what the defense gave them.

The one thing we should all know after watching Peyton Manning QB the Broncos for 4 years is that you don't need velocity to win you ball games, you just need to be accurate.

Tned
10-10-2016, 10:17 PM
The one thing we should all know after watching Peyton Manning QB the Broncos for 4 years is that you don't need velocity to win you ball games, you just need to be accurate.

Exactly.

MOtorboat
10-10-2016, 10:21 PM
I didn't say they don't roast them, I'm saying that anyone that has watched a few decades worth of football knows that when first/second round pick plays as good as Siemian did his first four games, they are VERY happy, because most of them start off like we just saw with Lynch.

You, like many sports reporters and many on this forum, are so invested in your early belief (I had it as well) that there was no way that a QB with that horrible a college history was going to be quality NFL starter, that you couldn't see what was happening in front of your eyes.

Hey, he may come crashing back to earth and start playing like shit (or like Lynch if you will), or what we are seeing may be his absolute peak, which he hit at four games, instead of say 2-4 years like many QBs. It's too early to tell, but I for one am not looking the gift horse in the mouth and am just ******* tickled pink that our seventh round pick is playing better than the $72 million man in Houston and about 75% of the quarterbacks in the league this year.

I changed my opinion immediately. I did a complete 180 the minute I saw him in week one, so we can dismiss that stupid ass notion immediately.

I had nothing but glowing reviews for him after week one and was explaining away his interceptions myself, so I really don't know what the hell you're talking about. After week three, I was 100 percent sold. I said he would start if both would healthy after the Tampa game, because he should. Said that immediately after the Tampa Bay game and never changed that opinion. Was optimistic about Lynch heading into this week and immediately knew I shouldn't have been. I have done nothing but say he was awful since the game ended, hell since halftime. So again, quit putting words in my mouth and trying to say everyone is against Trevor Siemian. They're not.

spikerman
10-10-2016, 10:22 PM
I think Siemian has a VERY strong arm fwiw.

MOtorboat
10-10-2016, 10:23 PM
That's my litmus for NFL readiness. Does the dude shit the bed when bullets are flying and the enemy is overrunning your position? Lynch didn't pass it.

I'm just trying to figure out why he looked composed in the Tampa game and so lost in the Atlanta game. Because he looked awful. He looked scared and jumpy, a week after looking composed and steady, even if his stat line was just OK.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-10-2016, 10:52 PM
My issue with playcalling is it never accounted for Lynch's dropback and inability to pass pro at RT. Why not have QB roll left or call draw toward RT?
I have no idea why they didn't chip with a rb or cover him with a TE. It reminded me of when Shanny and Kubes refused to give our LT (can't remember his name) against Joey Porter who ended up with a boat of pressures and sacks in the afc championship gsme

Hawgdriver
10-10-2016, 10:55 PM
I'm just trying to figure out why he looked composed in the Tampa game and so lost in the Atlanta game. Because he looked awful. He looked scared and jumpy, a week after looking composed and steady, even if his stat line was just OK.

He took a lot of hits and was constantly under duress. What the Broncos called wasn't working, so he improvised and looked like an amateur.

Tned
10-10-2016, 10:58 PM
I'm just trying to figure out why he looked composed in the Tampa game and so lost in the Atlanta game. Because he looked awful. He looked scared and jumpy, a week after looking composed and steady, even if his stat line was just OK.

Having a week to think about it vs a few minutes and getting thrown into the fire?

Let's not kid ourselves, he was equally inaccurate both weeks, but didn't look as rattled and lost last week.

Canmore
10-11-2016, 12:05 AM
I'm just trying to figure out why he looked composed in the Tampa game and so lost in the Atlanta game. Because he looked awful. He looked scared and jumpy, a week after looking composed and steady, even if his stat line was just OK.

Playing from behind is different than playing with a lead; additionally, it was against the team leading the league in scoring. That equates to pressure. Lynch simply did not handle that very well.

MOtorboat
10-11-2016, 12:19 AM
Playing from behind is different than playing with a lead; additionally, it was against the team leading the league in scoring. That equates to pressure. Lynch simply did not handle that very well.

It is. But it was a complete 180. It's just weird to me, honestly.

BroncoWave
10-11-2016, 12:21 AM
It is. But it was a complete 180. It's just weird to me, honestly.

I guess you could also consider the fact that the Falcons gameplanned for Lynch and the Bucs didn't. But yeah, it is still weird how much worse he looked.

MOtorboat
10-11-2016, 12:36 AM
I guess you could also consider the fact that the Falcons gameplanned for Lynch and the Bucs didn't. But yeah, it is still weird how much worse he looked.

It just doesn't explain composure. And this is the most concerning thing to me. The inaccuracy is bad, but the command of the offense and the composure is worse.

Northman
10-11-2016, 03:31 AM
Playing from behind is different than playing with a lead; additionally, it was against the team leading the league in scoring. That equates to pressure. Lynch simply did not handle that very well.

Yep.

Northman
10-11-2016, 03:41 AM
It just doesn't explain composure. And this is the most concerning thing to me. The inaccuracy is bad, but the command of the offense and the composure is worse.

He's a rookie. No matter how raw Trevor is Paxton is even rawer. He had the luxury with playing with a lead vs Tampa where the pressure was already off. He was in his first start at home so the pressure was on. They say playing at home can often benefit a young player but thats not always the case when the fanbase that is fickle and can turn on you in a heartbeat for a bad performance. To me Lynch looked exactly the way i thought he would for a guy starting his first game. And as Tned pointed out even in the Tampa game he was at times inaccurate and throwing into double coverage so there was some signs there to. I think eventually Paxton will be a good QB but it shouldnt be right now when the other guy is doing a good enough job even if its not throwing 5 TD's every game. What Wentz and Prescott are doing only impacts their teams, not the Broncos so people should not be kidding themselves that every young QB is going to light it up coming out of the box.

Joel
10-11-2016, 04:01 AM
How much razzle-dazzle flying circus do you expect with a raw rookie QB in his first career start, behind a Swiss cheese line with run "support" that isn't? A D averaging a SINGLE SACK PER GAME got HALF A DOZEN Sunday. Our underpowered C, RG, and RT got NO push and repeatedly failed to pick up 3rd and 1; anyone think a one-armed Sambrailo and slow-footed Schofield do better with tosses and sweeps? Those are Kubiak staples: He'd run them if we COULD.

We should've called Red Slot Bring Schlereth and Jones out of Retirement and Make Them Twenty Years Younger.

Hawgdriver
10-11-2016, 09:40 AM
It just doesn't explain composure. And this is the most concerning thing to me. The inaccuracy is bad, but the command of the offense and the composure is worse.

Too much pressure for him to handle. Another data point, not even a chapter. A lot of learning happened.

Was Elway more composed as a rookie in his most blunderific game?

Canmore
10-11-2016, 12:04 PM
It is. But it was a complete 180. It's just weird to me, honestly.

True, and nobody was helping him out. It seemed to me that he had the whole weight of the team on his shoulders and it felt to me like he was pressing. That is not a good scenario for any quarterback, especially a rookie.