Vikings sign former Broncos RB Ronnie Hillman

[Denver Native (Carol)]

CENTENNIAL, Colo. -- Ronnie Hillman admitted his last two preseason games were audition tapes. He faced a difficult challenge to beat out Kapri Bibbs given Hillman's lacking special teams resume. Hillman sees himself as a starting running back.

As of Wednesday, he might receive that opportunity again. Following a knee injury to Adrian Peterson, the Vikings signed Hillman.

Peterson told ESPN he suffered a torn meniscus in his knee in last Sunday's loss. He will undergo surgery which could sideline him for the bulk of the season. The Vikings moved quickly to sign Hillman, who had previously worked out for the San Diego Chargers after Danny Woodhead suffered a season-ending knee injury.

rest - http://www.thedenverchannel.com/sports/broncos/vikings-sign-former-broncos-rb-ronnie-hillman

[chazoe60]

I'm glad he found another gig, I'm glad it's not with the Broncos but I am happy he's still working.

[slim]

That is great. I miss watching all those broken tackles!

[BroncoWave]

Hopefully Vikings fans appreciate him more than Broncos fans did. And I hope he does well there. It's a great opportunity for him.

[BroncoJoe]

http://kingofwallpapers.com/bulldozer/bulldozer-009.jpg

[slim]

Hopefully Vikings fans appreciate him more than Broncos fans did. And I hope he does well there. It's a great opportunity for him.

Yes. He will be able to run the scout team until AP returns!

[BroncoWave]

Broncos fans have been absolutely spoiled by great running back play. As evidenced by the absolute disdain shown for guys like Moreno and Hillman, who were both productive in their time here, yet absolutely hated by the majority of our fan base. It's like if you don't make a pro bowl here as a running back you're trash.

[slim]

Broncos fans have been absolutely spoiled by great running back play. As evidenced by the absolute disdain shown for guys like Moreno and Hillman, who were both productive in their time here, yet absolutely hated by the majority of our fan base. It's like if you don't make a pro bowl here as a running back you're trash.

His lack of effort/intelligence on the lateral in the playoff game ruined him for me.

That was inexcusable.

[BroncoWave]

His lack of effort/intelligence on the lateral in the playoff game ruined him for me.

That was inexcusable.

I get it was a terrible play, but it shouldn't define a career. He improved as a player after that, and was more than serviceable last year. We probably don't get the 1 seed last year without his production, most notably his 70 yard touchdown in the Vikings game that we won by 3.

[Valar Morghulis]

I get it was a terrible play, but it shouldn't define a career. He improved as a player after that, and was more than serviceable last year. We probably don't get the 1 seed last year without his production, most notably his 70 yard touchdown in the Vikings game that we won by 3.

I wish I saw that td but I didn't. Thanks Spiker

[Pudge]

I wish I saw that td but I didn't. Thanks Spiker

Were you on your knees when it happened?

[Valar Morghulis]

Were you on your knees when it happened?

Yes

[slim]

I get it was a terrible play, but it shouldn't define a career. He improved as a player after that, and was more than serviceable last year. We probably don't get the 1 seed last year without his production, most notably his 70 yard touchdown in the Vikings game that we won by 3.

He improved after that play?

Uh, he basically never played again.

[Buff]

Broncos fans have been absolutely spoiled by great running back play. As evidenced by the absolute disdain shown for guys like Moreno and Hillman, who were both productive in their time here, yet absolutely hated by the majority of our fan base. It's like if you don't make a pro bowl here as a running back you're trash.

For the record - neither guy did a great job of ingratiating themselves to the fanbase. Moreno with his "Sauced" plates and DUI. Ronnie calling out "fake" fans. I think it goes beyond just their abilities on the field why fans never warmed up to them. It didn't help that they were both mediocre backs either.

[underrated29]

The worst part is his two most memorable plays are the 72 yard run and the pats debacle....Of course all of his other fumbles too. Maybe a run of his against San Fran a couple years ago but thats it. Otherwise everyone knows him from those 2 plays.....That is not a good player.

[Dapper Dan]

Any word on what number he will pick?

[weazel]

good luck to him.

[Valar Morghulis]

Any word on what number he will pick?

I think they are giving him 28

[slim]

Any word on what number he will pick?

0??

[Dapper Dan]

I think they are giving him 28

That's a gay number.

[Valar Morghulis]

That's a gay number.

Homophobe

[slim]

That's a gay number.

Because there are 28 colors in the rainbow?

[The Glue Factory]

Because there are 28 colors in the rainbow?

28 letters in the alphabet soup of alternate sexuality.

[Dapper Dan]

Homophobe

I didn't say it was a bad thing. Stop assuming.

[The Glue Factory]

Broncos fans have been absolutely spoiled by great running back play. As evidenced by the absolute disdain shown for guys like Moreno and Hillman, who were both productive in their time here, yet absolutely hated by the majority of our fan base. It's like if you don't make a pro bowl here as a running back you're trash.

Not exactly. Hillman earned his way into the doghouse with Fox after two fumbles on goal to go from <2 situations. He followed up that stellar performance with an inability to break arm tackles. At one point he had half the production as CJ as noted by the similar yardage gained but needing nearly twice as many carries to get there. As noted elsewhere, his lack of situational awareness on the lateral was the final straw for many. The recurring theme is that his production wasn't the results of a 3rd round pick.

[Valar Morghulis]

I didn't say it was a bad thing. Stop assuming.

To assume makes an ass out of u and me

[Dapper Dan]

To assume makes an ass out of u and me

Hey now. I don't need any help making an ass out of myself.

[The Glue Factory]

Hey now. I don't need any help making an ass out of myself.


Seems like this is drifting back to the gay side of the conversation.

[Dapper Dan]

Seems like this is drifting back to the gay side of the conversation.

Does that make you uncomfortable? Or aroused? Or both?

[Northman]

Missy did a jig when Hillman was released from Denver. She never forgave him for the fumble in Indy and cringed every time he touched the ball. I wish Hillman the best but can honestly say im glad he's gone. I always find it hysterical when fans complain about other fans who may or may not have liked certain players on this team over the years. Especially when those same fans complain about other players who have played for Denver now or in the past. lol

[The Glue Factory]

Does that make you uncomfortable? Or aroused? Or both?

D. None of the above.

Just pointing something out. Pardon the pun.

[Dapper Dan]

He wants the D.

[Mike]

The D. The D. The D. Give him the D.

[tubby]

Bulldozer

[Buff]

Bulldozer

http://imgix.scout.com/36/366875.jpg

[turftoad]

Broncos fans have been absolutely spoiled by great running back play. As evidenced by the absolute disdain shown for guys like Moreno and Hillman, who were both productive in their time here, yet absolutely hated by the majority of our fan base. It's like if you don't make a pro bowl here as a running back you're trash.

Man, you sure put a lot of words in peoples mouths. Disdain, hated. Oh boy. Maybe a few but not a generalization of most Bronco fans.

I'm glad he played here and was serviceable. He was never the fast, elusive back that we thought we drafted. He was serviceable and that's about it.
I'm also glad that he got a gig with the Vikes. Good landing spot for him. He will see some playing time there.

[aberdien]

I didn't know there was Knowshon hate.

[BroncoWave]

I didn't know there was Knowshon hate.

Oh there was a bunch. He was slaughtered on here his first few years here. People came around on him his last year here when he had the really good year that got him a nice contract in Miami, but he was not well-liked before then.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Oh there was a bunch. He was slaughtered on here his first few years here. People came around on him his last year here when he had the really good year that got him a nice contract in Miami, but he was not well-liked before then.

I loved Knowshon. He always played with heart. He fought for yards and had excellent lateral agility. He was also one of the best 3rd down backs in the league because he was a good receiver, good blocker, and a high football iq.

The only knock on Moreno was a lack of a second gear.

Hillman is not the same type of back Moreno was. Hillman was not a good receiver or nearly as valuable as a 3rd down back, which is where his best chance to provide value is.

[Dapper Dan]

I didn't know there was Knowshon hate.

I remember it because I got sick of it. I stayed away from the forum for a bit.

[Dapper Dan]

Man, you sure put a lot of words in peoples mouths. Disdain, hated. Oh boy. Maybe a few but not a generalization of most Bronco fans.

I'm glad he played here and was serviceable. He was never the fast, elusive back that we thought we drafted. He was serviceable and that's about it.
I'm also glad that he got a gig with the Vikes. Good landing spot for him. He will see some playing time there.

I guess many people bashing him all the time gave off that kind of impression. I'm sorry if that was misread.

[Buff]

Oh there was a bunch. He was slaughtered on here his first few years here. People came around on him his last year here when he had the really good year that got him a nice contract in Miami, but he was not well-liked before then.

In fairness, you are severely massively overstating the hate there was for Knowshon. I remember - because I was the #1 hater and was mostly met with resistance.

[BroncoJoe]

In fairness, you are severely massively overstating the hate there was for Knowshon. I remember - because I was the #1 hater and was mostly met with resistance.

I think at one point, a few of us bombarded your FB account with pictures of him.

[MOtorboat]

I think at one point, a few of us bombarded your FB account with pictures of him.

Worth it.

[BroncoWave]

In fairness, you are severely massively overstating the hate there was for Knowshon. I remember - because I was the #1 hater and was mostly met with resistance.

I remember arguing with a bunch of people who I felt irrationally disliked him. I don't remember him becoming popular among our fans until his last season here.

[weazel]

there was hate

[The Glue Factory]

I seem to recall Moreno had injury problems his first few (three?) years that caused much of the hate/dislike/call it what you want.

[BroncoWave]

I seem to recall Moreno had injury problems his first few (three?) years that caused much of the hate/dislike/call it what you want.

The two biggest things he was criticized for was injuries and the fact that he didn't live up to his high draft pick, two things which are almost totally out of a player's control. Injuries just happen, and a player can't control where he was drafted. When he was on the field, he was productive.

[Valar Morghulis]

Then he cried during the anthem and you all creamed your pants over him

[weazel]

Then he cried during the anthem and you all creamed your pants over him

that was one freaky cry though... you were aroused, don't deny it. You wanted to lubricate with those tears

[Davii]

Then he cried during the anthem and you all creamed your pants over him

He didn't cry. He expelled liquid freedom from his tear ducts.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

He didn't cry. He expelled liquid freedom from his tear ducts.
Ah yes, that moment ranks up there with the scene from Braveheart where he screams "Freedom!"....ignoring the castration part of course.

[TXBRONC]

Broncos fans have been absolutely spoiled by great running back play. As evidenced by the absolute disdain shown for guys like Moreno and Hillman, who were both productive in their time here, yet absolutely hated by the majority of our fan base. It's like if you don't make a pro bowl here as a running back you're trash.

Saying there was disdain for Moreno is an overstatement. I always gave credit when he played well, but I never thought was all that good. I liked Hillman but like Moreno he's replaceable as is Kapri Bibbs.

[BroncoJoe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW8IipJsR6c

[BroncoJoe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxsjhocQ8WQ

Maybe we should have a Knowshon appreciation thread?

[weazel]

I think you just did.

[turftoad]

Better to cry during the National Anthem than sit or kneel during it. :tsk:

[BroncoWave]

Better to cry during the National Anthem than sit or kneel during it. :tsk:

Turf coming in hot with this take! :D

[Tangerine]

The dislike for Moreno mostly came from where and when he was drafted. In 2009, with one of the leagues worst defenses and McDaniels trading away the QB, the last thing the team needed was a runningback, but of course that's what McDaniels picked with the 12th overall pick.

Its never a good idea to draft a runningback that early (unless his name is Adrian Perterson), they just simply don't last long enough to justify the pick. Look at Moreno, he played in the NFL just 6 years, and by 6th year his knees were shot, evidenced by the fact he only played one full game with Miami and has never been heard from since.

[BroncoWave]

The dislike for Moreno mostly came from where and when he was drafted. In 2009, with one of the leagues worst defenses and McDaniels trading away the QB, the last thing the team needed was a runningback, but of course that's what McDaniels picked with the 12th overall pick.

Its never a good idea to draft a runningback that early (unless his name is Adrian Perterson), they just simply don't last long enough to justify the pick. Look at Moreno, he played in the NFL just 6 years, and by 6th year his knees were shot, evidenced by the fact he only played one full game with Miami and has never been heard from since.

Pretty much this. Most of his hate was due to the fact that McDaniels picked him in the first round. Kinda like how Hillis became a martyr after mcd traded him.

[BroncoJoe]

The dislike for Moreno mostly came from where and when he was drafted. In 2009, with one of the leagues worst defenses and McDaniels trading away the QB, the last thing the team needed was a runningback, but of course that's what McDaniels picked with the 12th overall pick.

Its never a good idea to draft a runningback that early (unless his name is Adrian Perterson), they just simply don't last long enough to justify the pick. Look at Moreno, he played in the NFL just 6 years, and by 6th year his knees were shot, evidenced by the fact he only played one full game with Miami and has never been heard from since.

I love Mike Hawk. I wish I could visit with him more often.

[I Eat Staples]

The two biggest things he was criticized for was injuries and the fact that he didn't live up to his high draft pick, two things which are almost totally out of a player's control. Injuries just happen, and a player can't control where he was drafted. When he was on the field, he was productive.

It's out of a player's control, but it's perfectly reasonable to judge a player more harshly based on their draft position. It's nothing personal against them, but from a value standpoint, Moreno and Hillman were pretty lousy.

Using a 1st round pick on a running back is dumb anyway. If you're going to do that, they had better be DAMN good.

[BroncoWave]

It's out of a player's control, but it's perfectly reasonable to judge a player more harshly based on their draft position. It's nothing personal against them, but from a value standpoint, Moreno and Hillman were pretty lousy.

Using a 1st round pick on a running back is dumb anyway. If you're going to do that, they had better be DAMN good.

The criticism is reasonable, but misplaced. It should be directed at the GM/coach who made the pick, not the player who had no control over being picked there. What should Moreno have done? Should he have said "thanks, but I don't deserve to get picked this high, you guys should take someone else"?

[Davii]

The criticism is reasonable, but misplaced. It should be directed at the GM/coach who made the pick, not the player who had no control over being picked there. What should Moreno have done? Should he have said "thanks, but I don't deserve to get picked this high, you guys should take someone else"?

Yeah, because nobody has ever hated on Josh McDickbag. :rolleyes:

[BroncoWave]

Yeah, because nobody has ever hated on Josh McDickbag. :rolleyes:

Not what I said at all, but cool post.

[Simple Jaded]

The criticism is reasonable, but misplaced. It should be directed at the GM/coach who made the pick, not the player who had no control over being picked there. What should Moreno have done? Should he have said "thanks, but I don't deserve to get picked this high, you guys should take someone else"?

He does deserve criticism for not showing any redeeming qualities until after he was a certified bust.

[BroncoWave]

He does deserve criticism for not showing any redeeming qualities until after he was a certified bust.

Criticizing his play is completely fair. That's different than criticizing him for where he was drafted.

[Simple Jaded]

Criticizing his play is completely fair. That's different than criticizing him for where he was drafted.

Not even referring to his play, the only thing that ever endeared me to him was how hard he played towards the end, he was the only offensive player that was even remotely salty that year.

[Davii]

Criticizing his play is completely fair. That's different than criticizing him for where he was drafted.

I disagree. If you go on somewhere with high expectations and don't deliver you deserve the criticism. Expectations aren't necessarily your fault, it's how others perceive you/your talent, etc, but not meeting them still reflects on you. It's true in all walks of life really.

I was a KnoMo supporter fyi, but you will be judged by what the expectations for you are.

[Dapper Dan]

I think we've reached a Mexican standoff. Whatever that means.

[Simple Jaded]

Montee Ball was twice the bust Slowshon was but I don't care as much since he wasn't the 12th pick in the draft.

[Dapper Dan]

I can't believe we took Knowshon when we could have had Josh Freeman or Beanie Wells.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think we've reached a Mexican standoff. Whatever that means.

I don't know what it means either, but I like it.

[dogfish]

I think we've reached a Mexican standoff. Whatever that means.

i think it means you drink tequila to settle it. . .

[Northman]

Not even referring to his play, the only thing that ever endeared me to him was how hard he played towards the end, he was the only offensive player that was even remotely salty that year.

Yep.

His play at the end won me over but i was highly critical of him early on because he wasnt living up to his draft position. People call it unfair but thats how it goes when you are expected to be a difference maker. You are rated, chosen, and drafted that high to be a difference maker. It has nothing to do with who is at fault, it has to do with expectations. When you fail those as a high draft pick than yes, you become a bust. Despite Moreno's hard play down the stretch he still became a bust as far as his draft position goes. He was an adequate/average back who had some good moments but thats it. Hillman was a later draft pick so the expectations were not the same but he too ended up being an adequate/average back. In the end neither one was anything to write home about.

[Valar Morghulis]

Yep. His play at the end won me over but i was highly critical of him early on because he wasnt living up to his draft position. People call it unfair but thats how it goes when you are expected to be a difference maker. You are rated, chosen, and drafted that high to be a difference maker. It has nothing to do with who is at fault, it has to do with expectations. When you fail those as a high draft pick than yes, you become a bust. Despite Moreno's hard play down the stretch he still became a bust as far as his draft position goes. He was an adequate/average back who had some good moments but thats it. Hillman was a later draft pick so the expectations were not the same but he too ended up being an adequate/average back. In the end neither one was anything to write home about.

His only good year was in a really effective offense with world beating qb play that made defenses respect the pass so much

[MOtorboat]

Oh unreasonable draft expectations. You will always be entertaining.

[Joel]

Telling how this Hillman thread became a Moreno thread. Moreno, like many Denver RBs before and all since, was a victim of his "blockers." People criticized him for being tentative, dancing too much, getting hurt: All things that happen to RBs forced to break MULTIPLE tackles just to escape the backfield. Again, that was my chief argument against inflicting our line on post-op Manning, which people countered by noting we were #1 in rushing in 2001. The problem was:

1) We had the most yards because we had the most ATTEMPTS; we ranked 6th in rushing AVERAGE, and even that was because
2) Many "runs" were busted PASSES where Tebow squirted out of a pile for a gain and
3) McGahee was #1 in yards after CONTACT, which was great, except he was DONE after barely half a season more like that.

Moreno made the leap in 2013 because he learned from McGahee and accepted the reality that he HAD to army crawl for every inch behind our Swiss cheese line.

Like McGahee, his body was pretty much ruined after a full season of that, especially on top of the sidelining injuries it inflicted in previous seasons. Remember when Manning audible to runs three straight downs to burn all Baltimores time outs in the 2012 playoffs, but we had to punt it back because McGahee AND Moreno were out hurt, and Hillman couldn't convert? Same reason CJ led the NFL in rushing the last HALF of 2014 and the first HALF of 2015, but has yet to stay on the field MORE than half a season. There are signs Kubiak, Dennison and Barone are changing that, which itself compensates for lingering pass protection inconsistency.

I'm unconvinced any of that could help Hillman be a starter though. He is and always was a scatback; a "change of pace" guy relying on shiftiness and offering some receiving ability, but NOT an every down back who can do the shifty stuff AND move the pile in goal line/short yardage AND pick up blitzers on 3rd and 15. As someone with a soft spot for Minnesota, I'm not exactly thrilled about him being a placeholder for an injured AP; the difference is All Day and night.

[Northman]

Oh unreasonable draft expectations. You will always be entertaining.

I agree. Why have a draft board and ranking at all.

[TXBRONC]

i think it means you drink tequila to settle it. . .

A Mexican standoff is the argument of who gets the worm at the bottom of the bottle.

[TXBRONC]

Oh unreasonable draft expectations. You will always be entertaining.

Yeah I suppose if wanting a high draft pick to preform at a high level is unreasonable then so be it.

[Dapper Dan]

Is there any other sport in the world that obsesses about draft pick status the way football fans do?

[The Glue Factory]

Is there any other sport in the world that obsesses about draft pick status the way football fans do?

The short answer is: no.

for a longer answer, ask Joel for his thesis. :D

[Davii]

Is there any other sport in the world that obsesses about draft pick status the way football fans do?

Is there any other sport in the world that places so much emphasis on their draft, makes it a television spectacle, and selects only ~224 people on the planet each year?

[BroncoWave]

Is there any other sport in the world that places so much emphasis on their draft, makes it a television spectacle, and selects only ~224 people on the planet each year?

The NBA, and they only pick 60 people.

[Dapper Dan]

Is there any other sport in the world that places so much emphasis on their draft, makes it a television spectacle, and selects only ~224 people on the planet each year?

You're implying draft status is important because the NFL makes a show out of it.

[Dapper Dan]

The NFL should put a lot of money into the preseason. Then fans will worry about preseason records.

[I Eat Staples]

Is there any other sport in the world that obsesses about draft pick status the way football fans do?

It's a big deal to NBA fans too. But you can build championship teams in free agency there, so for a select few teams, missing on draft picks isn't as crippling.

In the NFL, you build champions through the draft, with almost no exceptions. The top teams are the teams that draft well every year. The bottom teams are the teams that constantly reach, make bad trades up, or just get unlucky that high picks don't work out.

The draft is incredibly important in the NFL. The two teams that played in the superbowl last year built around a 1st and 2nd overall pick that became superstars. Downplaying the importance of getting value for your draft picks is just silly.

[BroncoWave]

It's a big deal to NBA fans too. But you can build championship teams in free agency there, so for a select few teams, missing on draft picks isn't as crippling.

In the NFL, you build champions through the draft, with almost no exceptions. The top teams are the teams that draft well every year. The bottom teams are the teams that constantly reach, make bad trades up, or just get unlucky that high picks don't work out.

The draft is incredibly important in the NFL. The two teams that played in the superbowl last year built around a 1st and 2nd overall pick that became superstars. Downplaying the importance of getting value for your draft picks is just silly.

No one is downplaying the importance of drafting well. That is a completely different discussion. What we are talking about is evaluating two different players differently because of where they were drafted. CJ shouldn't get more credit as a player because he was undrafted, just like Hillman shouldn't be judged more harshly because he was picked highly.

The GMs who make those bad picks should absolutely be criticized and held accountable, but players should only be judged based on what they actually do on the field. If a first round pick has the exact same production as a 7th round pick and is an identical player, they should be evaluated the same as players.

[I Eat Staples]

No one is downplaying the importance of drafting well. That is a completely different discussion. What we are talking about is evaluating two different players differently because of where they were drafted. CJ shouldn't get more credit as a player because he was undrafted, just like Hillman shouldn't be judged more harshly because he was picked highly.

The GMs who make those bad picks should absolutely be criticized and held accountable, but players should only be judged based on what they actually do on the field. If a first round pick has the exact same production as a 7th round pick and is an identical player, they should be evaluated the same as players.

I guess I see what you're saying, but wouldn't you evaluate a car that you bought for $10,000 differently than one you bought for $100,000?

That's basically what we're dealing with when we judge players based on draft position and/or contract.

[Dapper Dan]

Paxton Lynch is a bust. 1st round pick riding the bench while the 7th round pick starts.

[Dapper Dan]

I guess I see what you're saying, but wouldn't you evaluate a car that you bought for $10,000 differently than one you bought for $100,000?

That's basically what we're dealing with when we judge players based on draft position and/or contract.

I can see why an owner might think that way. As a fan, I don't pay for any player. I just hope that every player on the team steps up and does well. Draft position and salary isn't my problem unless I'm playing Madden.

[I Eat Staples]

I can see why an owner might think that way. As a fan, I don't pay for any player. I just hope that every player on the team steps up and does well. Draft position and salary isn't my problem unless I'm playing Madden.

Well then by that logic why do we care about anything that happens to the team? If you're a fan of a team, of course you care whether or not they're getting value out of their draft picks. Wasting 1st round picks can set a team back for years.

[Dapper Dan]

Mexican Standoff.

[Dapper Dan]

Well then by that logic why do we care about anything that happens to the team? If you're a fan of a team, of course you care whether or not they're getting value out of their draft picks. Wasting 1st round picks can set a team back for years.

If the GM sucks at making picks then I care. Then we need a new GM. But when I'm comparing players I don't care if we start the 7th round QB or the 1st round QB as long as the starter does well. Booker won't be a bust if he can never outplay the starting UDFA.

[dogfish]

Mexican Standoff.

pass the tequila!

we'll drink a toast to ronnie hillman no longer being here. . .

:shots:

[Slick]

I get it was a terrible play, but it shouldn't define a career. He improved as a player after that, and was more than serviceable last year. We probably don't get the 1 seed last year without his production, most notably his 70 yard touchdown in the Vikings game that we won by 3.

It does though. Just like Rahim the Dream. That's just the way sports is. Fans are emotional and logic doesn't always apply. Rahim sucked and was a waste of a pick and Hillman pretty much was too. Thanks for the touchdown against Minnesota and one against New England in the snow but hit the road when you make huge mistakes in big games. Fans don't forget that stuff.

[dogfish]

It does though. Just like Rahim the Dream. That's just the way sports is. Fans are emotional and logic doesn't always apply. Rahim sucked and was a waste of a pick and Hillman pretty much was too. Thanks for the touchdown against Minnesota and one against New England in the snow but hit the road when you make huge mistakes in big games. Fans don't forget that stuff.

and wave is here to fan police the shit out of them. . . they're only supposed to invest their money in sports, not any emotion. . .

[BroncoWave]

and wave is here to fan police the shit out of them. . . they're only supposed to invest their money in sports, not any emotion. . .

Sorry for trying to bring logic and reason into the the discussion. I will only post emotional stances going forward. I'll start now. Paxton Lynch is a bust! He's a first round pick and can't even start over a seventh rounder? Child please! What a waste of oxygen he is! He was a bad first round pick and he should feel bad for being picked there!

How did I do?

[Northman]

Is there any other sport in the world that places so much emphasis on their draft, makes it a television spectacle, and selects only ~224 people on the planet each year?

Shhhhh, dont bring out the logic man.

[Northman]

I just hope that every player on the team steps up and does well.

Well duh.....

[Northman]

It does though. Just like Rahim the Dream. That's just the way sports is. Fans are emotional and logic doesn't always apply. Rahim sucked and was a waste of a pick and Hillman pretty much was too. Thanks for the touchdown against Minnesota and one against New England in the snow but hit the road when you make huge mistakes in big games. Fans don't forget that stuff.

But your are not allowed to feel like that Slick. Leave Hillman alone!!!

[GEM]

Peyton Hillis...:tape:

[Slick]

Sorry for trying to bring logic and reason into the the discussion. I will only post emotional stances going forward. I'll start now. Paxton Lynch is a bust! He's a first round pick and can't even start over a seventh rounder? Child please! What a waste of oxygen he is! He was a bad first round pick and he should feel bad for being picked there!

How did I do?

Terrible.

[Davii]

No one is downplaying the importance of drafting well. That is a completely different discussion. What we are talking about is evaluating two different players differently because of where they were drafted. CJ shouldn't get more credit as a player because he was undrafted, just like Hillman shouldn't be judged more harshly because he was picked highly.

The GMs who make those bad picks should absolutely be criticized and held accountable, but players should only be judged based on what they actually do on the field. If a first round pick has the exact same production as a 7th round pick and is an identical player, they should be evaluated the same as players.

Bullshit. You're hired to do a specific job, your pay is commensurate with expectations. If you're making ten times what that 7th round pick makes you are expected to achieve or produce at the level to which you are paid. There is no difference between that and a job anywhere.

It's not as though these guys are drafted based on a dart thrown at a wall (maybe if they're in Cleveland they are), they're drafted based on past performance, accolades, physical prowess, and ultimately their expected production. If they don't meet expectations they should be judged based on their shortcomings and their inability to reach the goals, expectations, etc. that they should have.

Hell, this is a regular occurrence everywhere I've ever worked. You are judged off of your results vs expectations. I've seen people moved out of a job that they were successful in because they weren't successful enough! If 1,000 yard season is the expectation and you make 750 you failed even if the guy making half as much as you had a goal of 500 and made 700. He did less but he surpassed expectations.

I mean, your argument, TO ME, seems kind of like an "everyone gets a trophy" type mentality. I know that's not what you're saying, but it seems rooted there to me. Expectations and results.

[Northman]

Peyton Hillis...:tape:

Yea, Wave has dodged that mention before. :lol:

[Buff]

Bullshit. You're hired to do a specific job, your pay is commensurate with expectations. If you're making ten times what that 7th round pick makes you are expected to achieve or produce at the level to which you are paid. There is no difference between that and a job anywhere.

It's not as though these guys are drafted based on a dart thrown at a wall (maybe if they're in Cleveland they are), they're drafted based on past performance, accolades, physical prowess, and ultimately their expected production. If they don't meet expectations they should be judged based on their shortcomings and their inability to reach the goals, expectations, etc. that they should have.

Hell, this is a regular occurrence everywhere I've ever worked. You are judged off of your results vs expectations. I've seen people moved out of a job that they were successful in because they weren't successful enough! If 1,000 yard season is the expectation and you make 750 you failed even if the guy making half as much as you had a goal of 500 and made 700. He did less but he surpassed expectations.

I mean, your argument, TO ME, seems kind of like an "everyone gets a trophy" type mentality. I know that's not what you're saying, but it seems rooted there to me. Expectations and results.

I think this is the key distinction where Danny and Wave's position falls apart. Yes, on some level - production is production and that is independent from draft slot. On the other hand - in the professional world you are hired with a specific set of expectations in mind. We don't hold the janitor to the same standard that we hold the CEO because they were hired with different expectations.

[MOtorboat]

I think this is the key distinction where Danny and Wave's position falls apart. Yes, on some level - production is production and that is independent from draft slot. On the other hand - in the professional world you are hired with a specific set of expectations in mind. We don't hold the janitor to the same standard that we hold the CEO because they were hired with different expectations.

The CEO and the janitor don't play the same position, it's not a very valid comparison. The minute a coach gets four running backs in his training camp huddle, the good ones don't look at draft pick status. And the good GMs don't base second contracts on draft pick status, either. That first year, second year, maybe we can look at draft status, but past that it really just doesn't matter.

[Buff]

The CEO and the janitor don't play the same position, it's not a very valid comparison. The minute a coach gets four running backs in his training camp huddle, the good ones don't look at draft pick status. And the good GMs don't base second contracts on draft pick status, either. That first year, second year, maybe we can look at draft status, but past that it really just doesn't matter.

I don't disagree with any of that. A coach/GM should evaluate based on absolute production - not on a relative basis. But my position is that it's unrealistic for fans/coaches/GMs to not carry a certain set of expectations with each player.

To revise my analogy - if you have 4 reporters working for you - you still have different expectations of all of them commiserate with experience, pay, past performance, etc. Certainly you can always revise your evaluation of any of them - but that doesn't change the fact that you came in with expectations of them.

[MOtorboat]

I don't disagree with any of that. A coach/GM should evaluate based on absolute production - not on a relative basis. But my position is that it's unrealistic for fans/coaches/GMs to not carry a certain set of expectations with each player.

To revise my analogy - if you have 4 reporters working for you - you still have different expectations of all of them commiserate with experience, pay, past performance, etc. Certainly you can always revise your evaluation of any of them - but that doesn't change the fact that you came in with expectations of them.

But you should be constantly re-evaluating, and I don't think your expectations at hiring date is a realistic or effective evaluation. Hillman was drafted four years ago. But if we ARE going to look at his draft status and his performance, according to pro-football-reference, he's well above average for a third round back.

[TXBRONC]

Sorry for trying to bring logic and reason into the the discussion. I will only post emotional stances going forward. I'll start now. Paxton Lynch is a bust! He's a first round pick and can't even start over a seventh rounder? Child please! What a waste of oxygen he is! He was a bad first round pick and he should feel bad for being picked there!

How did I do?

Turrible.

[Krugan]

This thread, is really long.

Congrats you guys!

[BroncoWave]

But if we ARE going to look at his draft status and his performance, according to pro-football-reference, he's well above average for a third round back.

orly? So the "Hillman didn't live up to his draft pick" crowd doesn't even have THAT to lean on now? Interesting.

How do you search by that on PFR? That is about to become my new favorite toy. :D

[Dapper Dan]

I honestly don't see where this is going. Some of us care about a player's draft status and some of us don't.

[BroncoWave]

Terrible.


Turrible.

Sorry, I will try to sharpen my hot take game!

[MOtorboat]

orly? So the "Hillman didn't live up to his draft pick" crowd doesn't even have THAT to lean on now? Interesting.

How do you search by that on PFR? That is about to become my new favorite toy. :D

Searched for every running back drafted in the third round from 1994 to 2014. Pulled it into a spreadsheet, figured out all purpose yards per year. He's 17th of 70 and averages more than 200 yards more than the average third round back.

[BroncoWave]

Searched for every running back drafted in the third round from 1994 to 2014. Pulled it into a spreadsheet, figured out all purpose yards per year. He's 17th of 70 and averages more than 200 yards more than the average third round back.

That sound like a lot of work, but I am glad you did it! And to add onto that, how many 3rd round running backs ever lead an NFL team in rushing? Probably not very many. But I digress, as Hillman is a guy who people already more than have their minds made up on.

[Buff]

I honestly don't see where this is going. Some of us care about a player's draft status and some of us don't.

Oh no you don't MF'er... You led us down this rabbit hole and now you have to stay until this discussion has culminated!

Now, let us hear your thoughts on comparing compensatory draft pick performance to that of supplemental draft pick performance.

[Northman]

Oh no you don't MF'er... You led us down this rabbit hole and now you have to stay until this discussion has culminated!

Now, let us hear your thoughts on comparing compensatory draft pick performance to that of supplemental draft pick performance.

Dapper does that a lot. He pokes the bear and then allows it to eat his buddies.

[TXBRONC]

The CEO and the janitor don't play the same position, it's not a very valid comparison. The minute a coach gets four running backs in his training camp huddle, the good ones don't look at draft pick status. And the good GMs don't base second contracts on draft pick status, either. That first year, second year, maybe we can look at draft status, but past that it really just doesn't matter.

That's not accurate. Good coaches and GMs do have expectations all their players and if those don't meet or exceed those expecations they will eventually be gone.

[I Eat Staples]

Searched for every running back drafted in the third round from 1994 to 2014. Pulled it into a spreadsheet, figured out all purpose yards per year. He's 17th of 70 and averages more than 200 yards more than the average third round back.

Assuming this is accurate I will concede that Hillman is better than I perceived him to be. But, I think more than anything this information just solidifies my opinion that unless they're a world class talent, running backs are third day prospects. If the average running back taken in the 3rd round will never be as good as Hillman, I'd rather use that pick on something else.

[TXBRONC]

Searched for every running back drafted in the third round from 1994 to 2014. Pulled it into a spreadsheet, figured out all purpose yards per year. He's 17th of 70 and averages more than 200 yards more than the average third round back.


That sound like a lot of work, but I am glad you did it! And to add onto that, how many 3rd round running backs ever lead an NFL team in rushing? Probably not very many. But I digress, as Hillman is a guy who people already more than have their minds made up on.

Then why did Denver let him go?

[MOtorboat]

That sound like a lot of work, but I am glad you did it! And to add onto that, how many 3rd round running backs ever lead an NFL team in rushing? Probably not very many. But I digress, as Hillman is a guy who people already more than have their minds made up on.

Took about 5 minutes.

[TXBRONC]

Sorry, I will try to sharpen my hot take game!

That would be appreciated. tia :D

[MOtorboat]

That's not accurate. Good coaches and GMs do have expectations all their players and if those don't meet or exceed those expecations they will eventually be gone.

You think Belichick sits down before last nights game and evaluates what he expects out of a third round quarterback, or do you think he just looked at him as his quarterback for that week?

[TXBRONC]

You think Belichick sits down before last nights game and evaluates what he expects out of a third round quarterback, or do you think he just looked at him as his quarterback for that week?

Are trying say he expected that quarterback to preform at the same level that Tom Brady does? I think not.

[MOtorboat]

Are trying say he expected that quarterback to preform at the same level that Tom Brady does? I think not.

No. Not even close to what I'm saying.

[BroncoJoe]

There is too much put into where someone is drafted, but it's not without merit.

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

[BroncoWave]

There is too much put into where someone is drafted, but it's not without merit.

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

Nice 77 year old reference. Is that what you took your first ever date to see?

[BroncoJoe]

Nice 77 year old reference. Is that what you took your first ever date to see?

Wave, I grow tired of the constant references to my age.

It was my third ever date, but I will not make age an issue of this forum. I am not going to exploit, for sporting purposes, other poster's youth and inexperience.

[weazel]

I am outraged at this whole draft position / performance debate.

[dogfish]

How do you search by that on PFR? That is about to become my new favorite toy. :D

you can search your boy hillis first. . . :heh:

[Valar Morghulis]

Wave, I grow tired of the constant references to my age.

I suppose when you've been around as long as you, you must have hear it a lot

[BroncoWave]

you can search your boy hillis first. . . :heh:

Hillis proves my point though. I could suck his dick because he overperformed as a 7th rounder, but instead, I simply compare him equally to every other running back, and using that basis he was mediocre at best.

[Timmy!]

9 pages. really??

[MOtorboat]

Peyton Hillis. All of 394 yards as a Bronco. Yay!

[Valar Morghulis]

Peyton Hillis. All of 394 yards as a Bronco. Yay!

No way!!! No wonder his wife cheated on him.

[The Glue Factory]

9 pages. really??

And now it's 10. Hopefully everyone will just leave it at that.





But I doubt it. :tsk:

[Davii]

Hillis proves my point though. I could suck his dick because he overperformed as a 7th rounder, but instead, I simply compare him equally to every other running back, and using that basis he was mediocre at best.

So we're he drafted in the first round he would've deserved harsh criticism for not living up to expectations.

Your point is extremely far from proven.

[BroncoWave]

So we're he drafted in the first round he would've deserved harsh criticism for not living up to expectations.

Your point is extremely far from proven.

I mean he proved my point in terms of how I evaluate players. Not that he proved it as a concept.

[Simple Jaded]

Should've never traded Hillis, Soncho!

[TXBRONC]

Should've never traded Hillis, Soncho!

What he said.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Should've never traded Hillis, Soncho!
He's available

[Dapper Dan]

He's available

I'm available.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'm available.

I saw your name and number in the bathroom stall.

[Dapper Dan]

I saw your name and number in the bathroom stall.

I sat here, patiently waiting for your call.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I sat here, patiently waiting for your call.

I had a thing to go to

[Dapper Dan]

I had a thing to go to

I had a thing for you to come do.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I had a thing for you to come do.

I'm happily married, I won't sleep with your wife.

[Dapper Dan]

I'm happily married, I won't sleep with your wife.

I don't have a wife anymore. I was talking about my penis. #nohomo

[Davii]

I'm happily married, I won't sleep with your wife.

Peyton Hillis you are not. :yo:

[Dapper Dan]

Peyton Hillis you are not. :yo:

Hey, how did you know about that?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I don't have a wife anymore. I was talking about my penis. #nohomo

Sorry dude, I didn't know.

[Davii]

Hey, how did you know about that?

Josh McDaniels' wife said something

[Dapper Dan]

Sorry dude, I didn't know.

She sorry. She ain't hype.

[BroncoTech]

They have crappy rushing attack, he'll play and look good.
Adrian was averaging 1.6 yards per carry (ouch) and their backup Asiata is at 2.7 yards per carry.

[Simple Jaded]

They have crappy rushing attack, he'll play and look good.
Adrian was averaging 1.6 yards per carry (ouch) and their backup Asiata is at 2.7 yards per carry.

What am I missing?

Hillman > Peterson?

[MOtorboat]

What am I missing?

Hillman > Peterson?

Their playcalling when Peterson is on the field is as unimaginative as any in the league. When they don't have Peterson, they restrict themselves to the 1960s and shit football.

[Simple Jaded]

Their playcalling when Peterson is on the field is as unimaginative as any in the league. When they don't have Peterson, they restrict themselves to the 1960s and shit football.

They ran a lot from shotgun last week and Turner runs Air Coryell, what more progressive do you need?

Besides, that's got nothing to do with Hillman > Peterson?

[MOtorboat]

They ran a lot from shotgun last week and Turner runs Air Coryell, what more progressive do you need?

Besides, that's got nothing to do with Hillman > Peterson?

It doesn't mean Hillman is better than Peterson, it means their playcalling restricts their offense when Peterson is in the lineup.

[Simple Jaded]

It doesn't mean Hillman is better than Peterson, it means their playcalling restricts their offense when Peterson is in the lineup.

How? And are we arguing the Hillman makes them a better team?

[MOtorboat]

How? And are we arguing the Hillman makes them a better team?

How what? How is their playcalling bad?

When Adrian Peterson was in the lineup last year they had the worst average YPP on first and second down in the league. Why? Because they were running on every down and not countering eight and nine man boxes or keeping the defense honest in any way.

Hillman doesn't in any way make them better, but not having Peterson might at least make their OC think.

[Simple Jaded]

Peterson can and does everything Hillman does at an elite level, he's Also far better in pass pro, he doesn't restrict anything they do. They run the ball because he is far and away their best weapon/player, maybe the Vkings just don't like what you like.

I get it, you don't like their philosophy, but this whole argument is like saying the Foo Fighters are "unimaginative" because there's not enough dubstep in their music.

AP offense = All-Time Great, Foo Fighters comp doesn't do him justice.

Hillman offense = DJ Flashy Fag with Two Turn Tables and a Microphone.

[MOtorboat]

Peterson can and does everything Hillman does at an elite level, he's Also far better in pass pro, he doesn't restrict anything they do. They run the ball because he is far and away their best weapon/player, maybe the Vkings just don't like what you like.

I get it, you don't like their philosophy, but this whole argument is like saying the Foo Fighters are "unimaginative" because there's not enough dubstep in their music.

AP offense = All-Time Great, Foo Fighters comp doesn't do him justice.

Hillman offense = DJ Flashy Fag with Two Turn Tables and a Microphone.

Then why was that offense the worst in the league last year on first and second down? That's a fact, it's not a debateable item.

[Simple Jaded]

Then why was that offense the worst in the league last year on first and second down? That's a fact, it's not a debateable item.

Im not analyzing their production, I don't even watch the Vikings, I'm just saying Peterson can do anything you need a RB to do. He doesn't restrict what they do, he's complained about running from shotgun but they still run from shotgun.

[MOtorboat]

Im not analyzing their production, I don't even watch the Vikings, I'm just saying Peterson can do anything you need a RB to do. He doesn't restrict what they do, he's complained about running from shotgun but they still run from shotgun.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I didn't say they're restricted because of him. I'm saying their restricted because of what their offensive coordinator does when he's in the lineup.

[Simple Jaded]

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I didn't say they're restricted because of him. I'm saying their restricted because of what their offensive coordinator does when he's in the lineup.

I do understand that, and my response was he's doing how/what he wants. Play calling is said to be such a chess match that it's counterintuitive to me to suggest any of these guys lack imagination, some just have no interest in progressive tactics.

And when it comes to those stats I say we take them for what they're worth, they're not as nuanced as stats are in baseball.

[Simple Jaded]

In the past five years the Broncos have tried both philosophical approaches and proved that both work, especially with a defense like the Vikings have.

Vikings don't have anything remotely close to PFM, though.

[Northman]

I saw your name and number in the bathroom stall.


I sat here, patiently waiting for your call.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8V3N6M0toQ

[Northman]

It doesn't mean Hillman is better than Peterson, it means their playcalling restricts their offense when Peterson is in the lineup.

I would venture to guess defenses probably stack up the box as well when he is in the lineup. I mean he is one of the best backs in the league for a reason so any defense who doesnt try to stop him would be pretty damn moronic at this point.

[MOtorboat]

I would venture to guess defenses probably stack up the box as well when he is in the lineup. I mean he is one of the best backs in the league for a reason so any defense who doesnt try to stop him would be pretty damn moronic at this point.

That post said that too.

[Simple Jaded]

Maybe the Vikings should stop running from shotgun so much, kinda like Peterson has said. That'd make too much sense though.

Like I've said many times, if Peyton Manning/Barry Sanders/Adrian Peterson/etc doesn't fit your system then the problem is your system.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/broncos-can-thank-vikings-for-picking-up-hillman-tab/324790042

[MOtorboat]

Maybe the Vikings should stop running from shotgun so much, kinda like Peterson has said. That'd make too much sense though.

Like I've said many times, if Peyton Manning/Barry Sanders/Adrian Peterson/etc doesn't fit your system then the problem is your system.

Adrian Peterson from under center, 26 carries, 39 yards, 1.5 YPC
Adrian Peterson from shotgun, 5 carries, 11 yards, 2.2 YPC

Obviously, shotgun not the problem.

[Simple Jaded]

Adrian Peterson from under center, 26 carries, 39 yards, 1.5 YPC
Adrian Peterson from shotgun, 5 carries, 11 yards, 2.2 YPC

Obviously, shotgun not the problem.

Take it up with him, he doesn't feel as comfortable.

[MOtorboat]

Take it up with him, he doesn't feel as comfortable.

It's OK, Dave will hold you when it hurts.

[Simple Jaded]

It's OK, Dave will hold you when it hurts.

Worth it!

[dogfish]

lol, MOseph. . . a few months back, al and dbag had clinton portis on. . . they asked him about running from shotgun, and he said he hated it. . . i had to think of you and laugh. . . don't shoot the messenger!

[MOtorboat]

lol, MOseph. . . a few months back, al and dbag had clinton portis on. . . they asked him about running from shotgun, and he said he hated it. . . i had to think of you and laugh. . . don't shoot the messenger!

I just think it's funny, all the hatred for the shotgun and running out of the shotgun when there's really no statistical difference. Either you can block or you can't, it's not the formations fault.

[dogfish]

I just think it's funny, all the hatred for the shotgun and running out of the shotgun when there's really no statistical difference. Either you can block or you can't, it's not the formations fault.

i wish i could remember exactly what he said, because he did go into detail about why he didn't like it. . . it was something about taking the handoff at that angle didn't let him get his shoulders square as quickly, and it slowed down his burst, or something along those lines. . . i believe he also made a comment about it affecting his vision in some way. . .

[MOtorboat]

i wish i could remember exactly what he said, because he did go into detail about why he didn't like it. . . it was something about taking the handoff at that angle didn't let him get his shoulders square as quickly, and it slowed down his burst, or something along those lines. . . i believe he also made a comment about it affecting his vision in some way. . .

Ok.

[Simple Jaded]

The timing and mesh point basically make every play a draw, forces OL to hold blocks even longer, cuts half the running plays out of playbook. Hard to be imaginative when the defense knows you're not running this play to this side or that. Where's the counter when you don't have a threat to run QB? Even then it's not a real counter, it's basically just Wildcat.

The stats don't break it down, they says everything is hunky dory but what they don't tell you is only certain plays work and there's usually zero context. I.e. a shotgun draw play on 1st/2nd/3rd and 20 that gets you 15 against man-to-man is different than 1st and goal from the one-yard-line.

[MOtorboat]

The timing and mesh point basically make every play a draw.

Nope.

Stopped reading.

[Simple Jaded]

Nope.

Stopped reading.

Would it help if I wrote a blog? This is literally things I'm regurgitating from professional football players and coaches.

[Simple Jaded]

I don't know of a single play you can't run from under C, you can even cheat get your audibles from your fatass Madden HC's on the sideline.

Under C doesn't make football, it makes football better.

[MOtorboat]

I don't know of a single play you can't run from under C, you can even cheat get your audibles from your fatass Madden HC's on the sideline.

Under C doesn't make football, it makes football better.

You can run every play you run from center in the shotgun and in the pistol. Literally every single one.

[Simple Jaded]

You can run every play you run from center in the shotgun and in the pistol. Literally every single one.

Lies!

But even if you can (we weren't talking about Pistol, which stil ruins the mesh point, timing and amount of time your OL has to hold blocks) why bother when you can run everything from under C?

[TXBRONC]

Lies!

But even if you can (we weren't talking about Pistol, which stil ruins the mesh point, timing and amount of time your OL has to hold blocks) why bother when you can run everything from under C?

Coaches have their reasons for not wanting run everything from the shotgun.

[Simple Jaded]

Coaches have their reasons for not wanting run everything the shotgun.

Yes, and by my unofficial count it's something like a 1 Trillion to 1 ratio of people that hate it to people that don't.

[TXBRONC]

Yes, and by my unofficial count it's something like a 1 Trillion to 1 ratio of people that hate it to people that don't.

I shutter to think what the official ratio would be. :shocked:

[Slick]

I like when Jaded and Mo argue about the merits of running out of the shotgun. The only thing missing from the last couple of pages is Jaded calling it the shit gun.

[dogfish]

Ok.

curb your enthusiasm, you effing midget!

[Simple Jaded]

I like when Jaded and Mo argue about the merits of running out of the shotgun. The only thing missing from the last couple of pages is Jaded calling it the shit gun.

I'm trying to be respectful of people's feelings.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'm trying to be respectful of people's feelings.

Who is this impostor?

[Simple Jaded]

Who is this impostor?

If I were going to impersonate someone it wouldn't be me.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

If I were going to impersonate someone it wouldn't be me.

:lol:

[TXBRONC]

I'm trying to be respectful of people's feelings.

I don't know you anymore!

[I Eat Staples]

The timing and mesh point basically make every play a draw, forces OL to hold blocks even longer, cuts half the running plays out of playbook. Hard to be imaginative when the defense knows you're not running this play to this side or that. Where's the counter when you don't have a threat to run QB? Even then it's not a real counter, it's basically just Wildcat.

The stats don't break it down, they says everything is hunky dory but what they don't tell you is only certain plays work and there's usually zero context. I.e. a shotgun draw play on 1st/2nd/3rd and 20 that gets you 15 against man-to-man is different than 1st and goal from the one-yard-line.

But they do break it down. The shotgun is more efficient than under center when adjusted for every single situation. Running and passing plays, every down, every time in the game. Every time you argue this you just sound like the people who defend MLB managers who still refuse to use sabermetrics. There is no reason for it other than stubbornness.

[sneakers]

I am glad he didn't show up in a Dane County Court room like a certain other former bronco back

[TXBRONC]

But they do break it down. The shotgun is more efficient than under center when adjusted for every single situation. Running and passing plays, every down, every time in the game. Every time you argue this you just sound like the people who defend MLB managers who still refuse to use sabermetrics. There is no reason for it other than stubbornness.

In other words there has to be a manipulation of the numbers inorder to make the use of the shotgun come out ahead.

[MOtorboat]

In other words there has to be a manipulation of the numbers inorder to make the use of the shotgun come out ahead.

No. That is not what that says.

[I Eat Staples]

In other words there has to be a manipulation of the numbers inorder to make the use of the shotgun come out ahead.

That is an impressive level of reading comprehension, or lack thereof.

[Simple Jaded]

But they do break it down. The shotgun is more efficient than under center when adjusted for every single situation. Running and passing plays, every down, every time in the game. Every time you argue this you just sound like the people who defend MLB managers who still refuse to use sabermetrics. There is no reason for it other than stubbornness.

Like I said, they don't break it down, they don't show what play was called in what formation, in what down/distance against what kind of defense. What you and MO are trying to do is use Shotgun and Pistol stats as one, but they invented Pistol so they could run a full complement of run plays with the QB in a shotgun-ish formation.

When you ignore when I literally regurgitate why professional OL, RB's and HC's hate shotgun you come off as a Madden geek defending his own "playbook".

Btw, if all plays work in both shotgun and under Center why bother going to shotgun? they go to shotgun for a reason and I'm just tying to fish it out of you. And it's not because "it's more efficient ".

[MOtorboat]

Like I said, they don't break it down, they don't show what play was called in what formation, in what down/distance against what kind of defense. What you and MO are trying to do is use Shotgun and Pistol stats as one, but they invented Pistol so they could run a full complement of run plays with the QB in a shotgun-ish formation.

When you ignore when I literally regurgitate why professional OL, RB's and HC's hate shotgun you come off as a Madden geek defending his own "playbook".

Btw, if all plays work in both shotgun and under Center why bother going to shotgun? they go to shotgun for a reason and I'm just tying to fish it out of you. And it's not because "it's more efficient ".

C.J. Anderson weighs in:

"We just did our job better up front," Anderson told Mile High Report. "It doesn't matter if Brock was under center. It was the same game we played [vs.] Green Bay when Peyton was in the pistol. We just executed our job up front, and if we execute we can do in the backfield, up front, at receiver, at tight end. If everybody does their job and not worry about nobody else's, we'll be a tough team to beat.
"It's not like, just because Brock is under center, our offense automatically opens up."

http://den.247sports.com/Bolt/CJ-Anderson-credits-Broncos-O-line-for-improved-running-game-41370248

Anderson has said he likes running out of the shotgun. Does he not count, or does he not count because it doesn't support your argument?

If Adrian Peterson is whining about the shotgun, or coaches are too stubborn not to utilize running and passing out of ALL formations, then that's probably why their offense sucks. What was that? 1.5 YPC?

[Simple Jaded]

Seriously, if you have to put the RB even further from the LOS in a league where DT's run 4.6's just to complete a running playbook what's the ******* point?

[Simple Jaded]

Ok, CJ Anderson vote counted.

Unfortunately that's still a 1 Trillion to 1 ratio. Barely moved the needle.

[MOtorboat]

Ok, CJ Anderson vote counted.

Unfortunately that's still a 1 Trillion to 1 ratio. Barely moved the needle.

Hardly.

DeMarco Murray likes the shotgun. Actually prefers it, but I'll let you read his words:

“We didn’t do much of it in Dallas, but I’ve done it in the past,” Murray said. “Hopefully we’ll get more downhill runs and get in the home position, but I think just the way we run and the plays, it’s hard for teams to set on one guy, set on one formation. We have a lot of things.”

There are advantages and disadvantages. LeSean McCoy preferred taking handoffs when the quarterback was under center because he was 7 ½ yards deep and he said it helped with his vision. He had the running start in that scenario as opposed to in the shotgun, when McCoy said he started running sideways.

Murray said he actually gets to “see more of the field” when it’s a shotgun formation.

“I get to see a lot of the things the offensive line are doing, and hear their calls and really know where the ball should go in different fronts,” Murray said.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/eagles/Early-Birds-DeMarco-Murray-running-out-of-the-shotgun-Eric-Rowe-at-nickel-DBs-vs-Aaron-Rodgers.html

It's not formation. It's not blogs. It's not Madden. It's whether or not you can block.

[Simple Jaded]

Hold me Dave!

[Simple Jaded]

Then move the QB under C and make it easier for the OL to block.

[Valar Morghulis]

Hold me Dave!

Gladly

[Poet]

Hillman is a good player and better than a lot of the starting RB's out there right now.

Running the ball is about blocking and Mo is right. Indy used to abuse people from the shotgun with runs.

[Simple Jaded]

Worth it!

[Simple Jaded]

Hillman is a good player and better than a lot of the starting RB's out there right now.

Running the ball is about blocking and Mo is right. Indy used to abuse people from the shotgun with runs.

And when we had PFM I tried to keep my outspokenness on shotgun to a minimum, this doesn't prove a rule though.

[Poet]

And when we had PFM I tried to keep my outspokenness on shotgun to a minimum, this doesn't prove a rule though.

It doesn't have to prove a rule. All kinds of teams run out of it. The point isn't whether it's good or bad, it's doable, and the intrinsic worth to it is going to be governed by individual contexts.

[Simple Jaded]

I enjoyed every last minute of PFM in Denver, just like I do having a real mans running game back in Denver.

[Simple Jaded]

It doesn't have to prove a rule. All kinds of teams run out of it. The point isn't whether it's good or bad, it's doable, and the intrinsic worth to it is going to be governed by individual contexts.

I wont argue if it's merely doable, the Broncos have done (and still do) both and proved that both work.

[MOtorboat]

#theshotgunisaformationtoo
#shotgunhasfeelings
#dontlefformationholdyouback
#youcanhasshotgun

[Simple Jaded]

#shotgunisaformationjustnotanentireoffense
#ilikeshotgunitsoneofmyfavoritewrinckles
#thepistolisagiantwasteoftimethough

[underrated29]

I cant believe this thread is still going....








Hillman is a good player and better than a lot of the starting RB's out there right now.

Running the ball is about blocking and Mo is right. Indy used to abuse people from the shotgun with runs.




Please name 5 teams that hillman is better than their starting RB...And starting RB not by injury. Miami and Kenya Drake for ex is not applicable.

[Simple Jaded]

I cant believe this thread is still going

I know, MO and Staples can be so stubborn.

[dogfish]

I enjoyed every last minute of PFM in Denver, just like I do having a real mans running game back in Denver.


#shotgunisaformationjustnotanentireoffense
#ilikeshotgunitsoneofmyfavoritewrinckles
#thepistolisagiantwasteoftimethough

forget formations, look at that egregious and offensive use of hashtags! way to go topscribe on us, old man! three words per tag or less, please!



on to more important things, how would you grade sombrero?

[dogfish]

I know, MO and Staples can be so stubborn.

especially staples. . .


ya know, not surprising, given the disposition it takes to consume staples on a regular basis. . .

#NoDigestZone

[Simple Jaded]

especially staples. . .


ya know, not surprising, given the disposition it takes to consume staples on a regular basis. . .

#NoDigestZone

Must go through a lot of underwear.

[Simple Jaded]

forget formations, look at that egregious and offensive use of hashtags! way to go topscribe on us, old man! three words per tag or less, please!



on to more important things, how would you grade sombrero?

Wait? There's rules for hashtags. Can you imagine Joel's hashtags?

Sampro gets a solid C-

[Poet]

I cant believe this thread is still going....












Please name 5 teams that hillman is better than their starting RB...And starting RB not by injury. Miami and Kenya Drake for ex is not applicable.

Indy, he's better than anyone on the Miami roster, Baltimore, Detroit, Cleveland, Oakland, Seattle.

[Joel]

Indy, he's better than anyone on the Miami roster, Baltimore, Detroit, Cleveland, Oakland, Seattle.
Hillman's better than Arian Foster and Thomas Rawls? Former All Pro Arian Foster? The Thomas Rawls who forced Beast Mode into retirement? I'm unsure he's even better than Forsett.

[TXBRONC]

That is an impressive level of reading comprehension, or lack thereof.

No, you just have a very weak argument.

[BroncoWave]

When you have use the lame excuse "when adjust every situation" that means you have weak argument.

You literally have no idea what you are talking about right now. "Adjusting for every situation" means taking out things like 3rd and 20 draws that skew the stats in favor of shotgun running. His point was that even if you take out runs that beef up the stats of running from the shotgun, running from the shotgun STILL comes out ahead.

He's not taking about adjusting stats to make shotgun running look better. He's talking about taking away some of the longest runs from shotgun (which should hurt his argument).

[TXBRONC]

You literally have no idea what you are talking about right now. "Adjusting for every situation" means taking out things like 3rd and 20 draws that skew the stats in favor of shotgun running. His point was that even if you take out runs that beef up the stats of running from the shotgun, running from the shotgun STILL comes out ahead.

He's not taking about adjusting stats to make shotgun running look better. He's talking about taking away some of the longest runs from shotgun (which should hurt his argument).

Taking cetain things out of equation is manipulation and it's done to make something else look better.

[BroncoWave]

Taking cetain things out of equation is manipulation and it's done to make something else look better.

TX, slow down for a second and read what I'm saying.

Staples' argument is that running from the shotgun is better than running from under center.

Jaded counters that the stats saying running from shotgun are skewed because of draws on 3rd and 20 that usually go for 5-10 yards.

Staples then says that even if you take out those runs, running from the shotgun still comes out ahead.

Staples is adjusting the stats in the way that Jaded wants, which makes Staples' argument even stronger since his argument still holds up.

Do you understand now?

[underrated29]

Indy, he's better than anyone on the Miami roster, Baltimore, Detroit, Cleveland, Oakland, Seattle.



Indy- He is not better than frank gore, not even old and busted frank gore. NO
Miami- He is not anywhere close to Arian Foster. NO
Balt-Kenneth Dixon has more skill in his testicles than Hillman. Forsett too- and hes just meh. NO
Det- Youre kidding right? Ameer Abdullah is WHAT Hillman was supposed to be. Theo Riddick owns hillman in every imaginable way... BIG NO
CLE- Duke JOhnson and Isiah Crowell- NOt even close. NOPE
Raiders- Latavius is way overrated imo, but hillman is not better. Its close, but not close enough. NO one would take hillman over Murray.
Seattle- Ralws and Michael eat pieces of shit like hillman for breakfast.


This was a big fail, just like Ronnies career in the NFL

[Slick]

El oh el. Get some King.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Indy, he's better than anyone on the Miami roster, Baltimore, Detroit, Cleveland, Oakland, Seattle.
Negative

[Joel]

You literally have no idea what you are talking about right now. "Adjusting for every situation" means taking out things like 3rd and 20 draws that skew the stats in favor of shotgun running. His point was that even if you take out runs that beef up the stats of running from the shotgun, running from the shotgun STILL comes out ahead.

He's not taking about adjusting stats to make shotgun running look better. He's talking about taking away some of the longest runs from shotgun (which should hurt his argument).
My experience has been that most people struggle with comprehending that kind of argument: "Oh, sure, if you cook the books to make your case BETTER." Even though you're actually pulling your punches to avoid overstating the argument. When all you have is a bias, everything looks personal.

For what it's worth, I share the bias against shotgun running, because, logically, it shouldn't work: The RB has farther to go, the D has an unobstructed view of the backfield, the RB's taking the ball flatfooted, etc. etc. Except, while I've not studied the RECORD extensively, it STRONGLY suggests runs average more yardage out of the shotgun than from under center. Maybe it's just because the D expects a pass out of shotgun; that was certainly the case when we went shotgun empty on our 2PAT, and it had sprung Siemian for an easy conversion until Sambrailo downfield whiffed a guy and let him make the tackle.

Whatever the reason, however unnatural and counterintuitive it feels, it's hard to argue with results.

[Poet]

Indy- He is not better than frank gore, not even old and busted frank gore. NO
Miami- He is not anywhere close to Arian Foster. NO
Balt-Kenneth Dixon has more skill in his testicles than Hillman. Forsett too- and hes just meh. NO
Det- Youre kidding right? Ameer Abdullah is WHAT Hillman was supposed to be. Theo Riddick owns hillman in every imaginable way... BIG NO
CLE- Duke JOhnson and Isiah Crowell- NOt even close. NOPE
Raiders- Latavius is way overrated imo, but hillman is not better. Its close, but not close enough. NO one would take hillman over Murray.
Seattle- Ralws and Michael eat pieces of shit like hillman for breakfast.


This was a big fail, just like Ronnies career in the NFL

Arian Foster is an incredibly injured prone product of the system. Good lord.
Baltimore - You just listed someone with less accomplishments than Hillman, and to a point that's fine, but he's literally done next to nothing in the pros.
Abdullah is definitely awesome. I mean....he's...like a younger Arian Foster and I don't mean in terms of production.
Duke Johnson has done nothing and Crowell has been incredibly inconsistent. You can do better.
Rawls lost his job to a guy who has bounced around from various teams. Neither of them have outproduced Hillman.

I know that you're actually not an idiot, which is why your football posts make me sad.

[I Eat Staples]

Like I said, they don't break it down, they don't show what play was called in what formation, in what down/distance against what kind of defense. What you and MO are trying to do is use Shotgun and Pistol stats as one, but they invented Pistol so they could run a full complement of run plays with the QB in a shotgun-ish formation.

When you ignore when I literally regurgitate why professional OL, RB's and HC's hate shotgun you come off as a Madden geek defending his own "playbook".

Btw, if all plays work in both shotgun and under Center why bother going to shotgun? they go to shotgun for a reason and I'm just tying to fish it out of you. And it's not because "it's more efficient ".

The stats do break it down. Wave explained it pretty well. If you simply think I'm lying or something, I don't know what else to tell you. The information is out there for anyone to view, and it has nothing to do with Madden or blogs. I'm not saying anything crazy or revolutionary here. I'm literally just telling you what the stats say. If people ignore stats and data in favor of personal feeling/preference/status quo, then I sure would love to play poker with those people. I could probably make enough money to quit my job.

Teams use the shotgun because the QB (and RB, believe it or not) can scan the whole field better, and the QB doesn't have to drop back several steps just for shits and giggles. The bigger threat of passing the ball from the shotgun makes running it that much more effective. When you have a QB who is a threat to run (which you're going to have to get used to because the game will evolve like the college game has) that makes the shotgun even BETTER because it opens up the zone reads and RPOs. Running the ball from a spread formation is much better because, as the name implies, the defense has to actually spread out to defend it. The running lanes are open.

Oregon is always one of the best running teams, entirely from the shotgun. Baylor ran all over teams even without a healthy viable QB to play, all from the shotgun. Teams are even running the triple option entirely out of the shotgun now because even THAT is better.

[Poet]

Guys, I realize that I'm really ******* smart and awesome, but you can do better. UR just argued that old and washed up guys who are always injured, super young guys who have done nothing, and dudes who can't even stay on a roster are better than Hillman. I'm willing to open up a book loaning program for you all. ;)

[dogfish]

Guys, I realize that I'm really ******* smart and awesome, but you can do better. UR just argued that old and washed up guys who are always injured, super young guys who have done nothing, and dudes who can't even stay on a roster are better than Hillman. I'm willing to open up a book loaning program for you all. ;)

U29 is one thing. . . and i haven't read this past page. . .


but if hillman had value, why did elway fail to realize it?




:noidea:

[underrated29]

Arian Foster is an incredibly injured prone product of the system. Good lord.
Baltimore - You just listed someone with less accomplishments than Hillman, and to a point that's fine, but he's literally done next to nothing in the pros.
Abdullah is definitely awesome. I mean....he's...like a younger Arian Foster and I don't mean in terms of production.
Duke Johnson has done nothing and Crowell has been incredibly inconsistent. You can do better.
Rawls lost his job to a guy who has bounced around from various teams. Neither of them have outproduced Hillman.

I know that you're actually not an idiot, which is why your football posts make me sad.


Injured and better. Injured fostr stills shirts on hillmans face. Product of system or not, foster has in 1 year outperformed ronnies nearly entire career. It's not even close. It never will be. Ronnie will never ever be mentioned in the same league as foster. Ever.

He's done nothing and he's still better. What does that say?
Yes, like the rest of your argument, you failed and agree that Abdullah and theo are superior in every facet possible.
Duke has done quite a bit, and inconsistent Crowell still is a better rb. He's broken a tackle before and he can speak with an English accent! Ronnie- nope nope nope.
Rawls owns Hillman, Michael does too.

But we already know this as all of these rbs are starters and Hillman is not. All of these teams had TWO opportunities and a 3rd, if you believe Elway was trying to trade him, and on THREE separate occasions Every team passed....which is good because Ronnie would have dropped it and then let the other team take it back to score a touchdown.

You sadness stems from taking the wrong side. Ronnie Hillman never told you who your father really was.......King.......I am your father...which is why you're good looking

[Poet]

You're not better if you're always injured. Right now who are you taking between AP or Hillman. One dude can barely walk and the other one can outgain most RB's in the league.

Oh, you say? AP when healthy is better? Well that does matter! But it doesn't ******* matter if the guy in question is ALWAYS ******* HURT!

The rest of this is just absurd drivel. To put this in logic terms: Your stance presupposes what it seeks to prove. You have to have an actual SUBSTANCE to SUBSTANTIATE the claims.

Go to bed!

[Poet]

U29 is one thing. . . and i haven't read this past page. . .


but if hillman had value, why did elway fail to realize it?




:noidea:

Because no one is perfect and Elway did utilize it. Hillman had some good production here. There's this phantom notion that he's bad, and it's not actually based on much.

[Poet]

Hillman's better than Arian Foster and Thomas Rawls? Former All Pro Arian Foster? The Thomas Rawls who forced Beast Mode into retirement? I'm unsure he's even better than Forsett.

Rawls isn't even a starter and Lynch would have had that job if he kept playing. Arian Foster rides bench constantly because he's hurt. He's a walking injury list.

[dogfish]

Because no one is perfect and Elway did utilize it. Hillman had some good production here. There's this phantom notion that he's bad, and it's not actually based on much.

if hillman had value, why wasn't elway able to capitalize on it by trading him?

[BroncoWave]

if hillman had value, why wasn't elway able to capitalize on it by trading him?

Because teams knew he was on the chopping block. It's really hard to trade a player that teams know you're going to cut.

[Slick]

Anyone in the league could have signed Hillman in free agency yet none of them did. He wasn't as bad as some make him out to be either.

It took a week 2 injury for him to get picked up. That says a lot. He's on a good team now and I'm happy for him.

[underrated29]

These are the most memorable plays hillman has had in his career

1. 72 yard td run vs vikes last year
2. dropped pass vs NE resulting in pats td
3. goaline fumble vs indy
4. another goal line fumble- indy again?
5. Pretty sweet td run against the 9ers two years ago
6. dropped wide open pass on 4th down
7. being tackled, knocked backwards, by vince wilforks fart.


I made one of those up, although I bet it happened. Yes, hurt AD wont hurt my team like hillman will. And in 5 weeks when AD is back.....How did I get into this? No, hillman blows and is not capable nor better than other starting RBs in the nfl. Substance is in the pudding. You like pudding, this should appeal to you.

[Poet]

Arbitrary lists mean very little. It serves nothing in regards to a rebuttal. UR, I love you. I really do. You're a good man. You're talented. You're also, when it comes to football evaluation, as dumb as a brickhouse built with bricks made out of stupid.

[Joel]

Rawls isn't even a starter and Lynch would have had that job if he kept playing. Arian Foster rides bench constantly because he's hurt. He's a walking injury list.
Lynch retired because Rawls TOOK his job. Lynch got greedy, then sour, then hurt and finally replaced. Foster's hurt a lot because he's been a starting NFL RB longer than Hillman could ever dream of, but if Hillman's lucky to even be on a ROSTER at 25, where do you think he'll be at Fosters age? Constantly bouncing off defenders and into the GROUND takes a big toll of its own.


Anyone in the league could have signed Hillman in free agency yet none of them did. He wasn't as bad as some make him out to be either.

It took a week 2 injury for him to get picked up. That says a lot. He's on a good team now and I'm happy for him.
Yeah, but now he's on a team I LIKE, so I'm sad for it.

[Slick]

I want to hear more about running out of the shitgun.

[MOtorboat]

I want to hear more about running out of the shitgun.

I want to hear more about how Marshawn Lynch only retired because Thomas Rawls was better.