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VonDoom
06-15-2016, 06:16 PM
Eric Goodman ‏@EricGoodman 1h1 hour ago

Reliable source close to the #Broncos Emanuel Sanders negotiations.

Sanders seeking a 4 year deal for roughly $12M/season.

Eric Goodman ‏@EricGoodman 51m51 minutes ago

Update on #Broncos Sanders negotiations...Sides have exchanged 1 proposal...Sanders seeking $24M guaranteed (not fully) w/settle for $21M..

-----------------------------

I don't know how reliable Goodman is, but I can see that from Sanders' perspective. We probably want him at $10 million a year or so, I would think.

Poet
06-15-2016, 06:18 PM
That is palatable.

Slick
06-15-2016, 06:28 PM
How old is he?

VonDoom
06-15-2016, 06:29 PM
How old is he?

He's 29, so he'd be 30 by the time any extension kicked in.

Poet
06-15-2016, 06:32 PM
He has enough speed and route running ability to 'age well' in the NFL if that makes sense.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-15-2016, 07:16 PM
As the Broncos continue to do off-field business in preparation for their Super Bowl title defense, a contract extension for wide receiver Emmanuel Sanders probably doesn’t rank as high as on the priority list as resolving the Von Miller situation does, but it could be something the team and Sanders get done in the near future.

Mike Klis of News 9 in Denver reported Wednesday that the sides have “exchanged proposals.” Troy Renck of the Denver Post tweeted that Sanders offered no update on the situation but said he was hopeful a deal can be reached.

Sanders, 29, has been a bargain for the Broncos on the three-year, $15 million deal he signed with the team prior to the 2014 season. Sanders has caught 177 passes and 15 touchdowns over his two seasons in Denver and has missed just one game in that time.

Now that linebacker Brandon Marshall got his new deal, it makes sense that Sanders would be next in line. The price of keeping a Super Bowl contender together is a heavy one.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/06/15/emmanuel-sanders-hopeful-hell-get-new-deal-from-broncos/

MOtorboat
06-15-2016, 07:46 PM
$12 million would make him the seventh-highest paid wide receiver in the league.

Tned
06-15-2016, 07:52 PM
$12 million would make him the seventh-highest paid wide receiver in the league.

What did DT and Dez get?

MOtorboat
06-15-2016, 07:54 PM
What did DT and Dez get?

$14.

tomjonesrocks
06-15-2016, 07:56 PM
$12 million would make him the seventh-highest paid wide receiver in the league.

Yeah I think that's probably too steep for us, but maybe the Broncos will surprise me. He takes a ton of punishment though so I'm not sure he's a long-career receiver, much as he's become one of my favorite players in the league.

aberdien
06-15-2016, 08:01 PM
http://i.imgur.com/nlBV1P5.gif

http://giant.gfycat.com/RigidRareArcticduck.gif

http://i.imgur.com/J7fUdmP.gif

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7ggcdgFTt74/VEm0ctKSoNI/AAAAAAAAsvw/lmxiiz5qBFI/s1600/SandersTD.gif

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/KiyS_NtZCHH33I0ej1QKn0aJT90=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2370274/Refpick.0.gif

https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/3FzV3StTQ1iq-CVyykH0fNfDxBg=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2465934/sanders.0.0.0.gif

He is one hard working dude.

Slick
06-15-2016, 08:05 PM
I don't see how you can pay him that and pay DT what he makes. I doubt he gets 12 from Denver.

MOtorboat
06-15-2016, 08:13 PM
I don't see how you can pay him that and pay DT what he makes. I doubt he gets 12 from Denver.

I'd be surprised if anyone paid him $12. He's had one year where his production equaled that value.

Northman
06-15-2016, 08:19 PM
So now Sanders may be gone? lol

Slick
06-15-2016, 08:29 PM
He's a fan favorite and a tough sob but you can't pay everybody.

Joel
06-15-2016, 10:13 PM
So now Sanders may be gone? lol
"Now"? He's pretty much at the top of the list of people I've been ranting for a while about us losing next year because we do every deal at the last minute, when inflation's driven the cost to its highest point and we have NO leverage over guys who can take offers from EVERY team because they're no longer under contract.

There's been lots of talk for years about Elway "winning" free agency, but that equation has two sides: Luring away OTHER teams' FAs for bargain prices AND retaining your OWN. Elway's been nearly as bad at the second part, and as consistently, as he's been good at the first. But now he doesn't have the GoAT under center to convince aging All Pros their best shot at retiring with a Ring's worth a pay cut.

All that said, as much as I love Sanders (which is a lot) $12M/yr does sound a bit steep. If doable, $9-10M/yr with $5-10M more guaranteed sounds far better. More money for him, smaller cap hits for us: That's a win-win.

Northman
06-16-2016, 06:30 AM
"Now"? He's pretty much at the top of the list of people I've been ranting for a while about us losing next year because we do every deal at the last minute, when inflation's driven the cost to its highest point and we have NO leverage over guys who can take offers from EVERY team because they're no longer under contract.

There's been lots of talk for years about Elway "winning" free agency, but that equation has two sides: Luring away OTHER teams' FAs for bargain prices AND retaining your OWN. Elway's been nearly as bad at the second part, and as consistently, as he's been good at the first. But now he doesn't have the GoAT under center to convince aging All Pros their best shot at retiring with a Ring's worth a pay cut.

All that said, as much as I love Sanders (which is a lot) $12M/yr does sound a bit steep. If doable, $9-10M/yr with $5-10M more guaranteed sounds far better. More money for him, smaller cap hits for us: That's a win-win.

I hope DT is ready to step up this year more than usual. If Sanders goes there wont be any other receiver on the squad to alleviate the double teams, etc.

Mike
06-16-2016, 07:51 AM
I'd gladly give Sanders the money we gave DT. I'd take him any day over Thomas.

Northman
06-16-2016, 08:05 AM
I'd gladly give Sanders the money we gave DT. I'd take him any day over Thomas.

Uh oh, now you have done it. lol

BroncoJoe
06-16-2016, 08:18 AM
I hope DT is ready to step up this year more than usual. If Sanders goes there wont be any other receiver on the squad to alleviate the double teams, etc.

Cody Latimer!

Northman
06-16-2016, 08:26 AM
Cody Latimer!

Who?

Davii
06-16-2016, 08:35 AM
Who?

Next year is his breakout year. Just like last year.

dogfish
06-16-2016, 09:42 AM
when does DT re-work his contract and give us some of that money back?

Valar Morghulis
06-16-2016, 09:43 AM
Trust in latimer

underrated29
06-16-2016, 10:33 AM
Who?


Kapri Bibbs!

underrated29
06-16-2016, 10:38 AM
Trust in latimer


I like Latimer.
I was watching the few of our old games I could get on DVR after I lost all of my games. On quite a few of the big runs CJ had latimer was out in front blocking like a boss! The kid has hands too, hes just stuck behind Heman. I think he shows some good this year and sticks around or makes dt....i mean sanders more expendable.

---------------------------------------

Ideally Manny sanders is a 9 mil a year guy. I think he could get more and hes my fav WR we have, but I would not pay him 12+.
I like DT, but manny does something DT has not ever done in his life as a bronco. He will dive for a catch. DT could be an absolute top 2 wr in the game if he would just dive for a ball or go up in traffic or fight for the ball. He is soft though. which is weird since he is such a big strong monster.

Northman
06-16-2016, 10:43 AM
If Sanders leaves than just throw Taylor in.

Buff
06-16-2016, 11:34 AM
What an incredible acquisition Sanders has been... It's even better when you think that the Chiefs had a verbal agreement in place with him during free agency, then Elway called and he left them hanging.

Pay him whatever he wants.

VonDoom
06-16-2016, 11:54 AM
What an incredible acquisition Sanders has been... It's even better when you think that the Chiefs had a verbal agreement in place with him during free agency, then Elway called and he left them hanging.

Pay him whatever he wants.

Stealing him from the Chiefs is one of my favorite recent Bronco stories.

Rick
06-16-2016, 12:16 PM
I would pay him the 12. Not sure how it could be squeezed in but I think he has the talent to match the deal.

If not us then he will get that contract and be a #1 on some other team, he is one that I would make sure I keep even if I am paying 2 WRs #1 money.

NightTerror218
06-16-2016, 12:30 PM
Everyone wanting to be paid now. On open market would sanders get top 10 money? I doubt it.

Northman
06-16-2016, 12:42 PM
Everyone wanting to be paid now. On open market would sanders get top 10 money? I doubt it.

Decker got paid so i dont doubt that Sanders would get paid.

MOtorboat
06-16-2016, 12:45 PM
Decker got paid so i dont doubt that Sanders would get paid.

Decker got $7.25 per year.

Northman
06-16-2016, 12:51 PM
Decker got $7.25 per year.

Yea, but a lot of people felt he wasnt worth that.

MOtorboat
06-16-2016, 12:54 PM
Yea, but a lot of people felt he wasnt worth that.

$7.25 is just a whole lot different than $12 for a No. 2 receiver.

slim
06-16-2016, 01:02 PM
$7.25 is just a whole lot different than $12 for a No. 2 receiver.

How many years ago did Decker sign his deal?

Inflation in NFL dollars is pretty steep

MOtorboat
06-16-2016, 01:05 PM
How many years ago did Decker sign his deal?

Inflation in NFL dollars is pretty steep

Not that steep. But, a lot of it depends on demand. I don't know what next year's wide receiver free agent pool looks like off the top of my head. I do know $12 million per year is the seventh highest paid person at the position currently. He's a nice player, but he's just not that good.

slim
06-16-2016, 01:07 PM
Not that steep. But, a lot of it depends on demand. I don't know what next year's wide receiver free agent pool looks like off the top of my head. I do know $12 million per year is the seventh highest paid person at the position currently. He's a nice player, but he's just not that good.

IDK, he is pretty good.

But they can't pay 2 WRs like that, so it's not gonna happen....unless they are planning to get rid of DT.

Northman
06-16-2016, 01:11 PM
IDK, he is pretty good.

But they can't pay 2 WRs like that, so it's not gonna happen....unless they are planning to get rid of DT.

Doubt they would pay DT the money they did and then ship him off in a trade.

slim
06-16-2016, 01:13 PM
Doubt they would pay DT the money they did and then ship him off in a trade.

Oh, me too.

I hope he has his mind right this year.

dogfish
06-16-2016, 01:23 PM
Not that steep. But, a lot of it depends on demand. I don't know what next year's wide receiver free agent pool looks like off the top of my head. I do know $12 million per year is the seventh highest paid person at the position currently. He's a nice player, but he's just not that good.

he's sure not far off. . . his stats were down this year due to atrocious quarterback play, but last year he was top five in receiving yards. . . who's better? obviously AB and julio, AJ green, dez, deandre hopkins, DT when his head's right, and probably ODB. . . maybe jordy nelson if he returns all the way to form. . . allen robinson? sanders is every bit as good as guys like TY hilton, golden tate, doug baldwin or randall cobb. . . sanders may be smaller, but he's proven that he can thrive as a boundary receiver. . . he would be the one on most teams. . . not saying he'd be as dynamic in that role, but he's absolutely the best wide receiver on a lot of teams. . . dude has major grit and guts-- he's a leader who plays with serious fire, and has a real knack for coming up with big time plays in big moments. . . he's my favorite denver wideout since we were running #80 and #87 out there. . . probably because he plays the position the same way those guys played it. . .

:defense:

MOtorboat
06-16-2016, 01:24 PM
he's sure not far off. . . his stats were down this year due to atrocious quarterback play, but last year he was top five in receiving yards. . . who's better? obviously AB and julio, AJ green, dez, deandre hopkins, andprobably ODB. . . maybe jordy nelson if he returns all the way to form. . . allen robinson? sanders is every bit as good as guys like TY hilton, golden tate, doug baldwin or randall cobb. . . sanders may be smaller, but he's proven that he can thrive as a boundary receiver. . . he would be the one on most teams. . . not saying he'd be as dynamic in that role, but he's absolutely the best wide receiver on a lot of teams. . . dude has major grit and guts-- he's a leader who plays with serious fire, and has a real knack for coming up with big time plays in big moments. . . he's my favorite denver wideout since we were running #80 and #87 out there. . . probably because he plays the position the same way those guys played it. . .

:defense:

He's had 1 year of his 6 that was top ten.

dogfish
06-16-2016, 01:33 PM
He's had 1 year of his 6 that was top ten.

he was capable in pittsburgh, but he was behind mike wallace (beast at the time), and antonio "the best receiver in the league" brown. . . in a scheme that wasn't wide-open at that time, on an offense that also featured heath miller, and later leveon bell as well. . . he didn't get the opportunities. . . he's proven what he can do when he does, including producing despite putrid QB play last year. . . his early years stats don't define his capability, and i'm pretty sure you know that. . .

but even if you think he's more like a top-twelve to top-fifteen type of guy, it's not unreasonable to expect that his new-money contract would be closer to top ten at the time he signs it. . . for an important member of a team that just won a title. . . hell, we have to have more in our receiving corps than just demaryious with a bunch of draft picks, UDFAs, and vet minimum guys. . . i mean, i do like jordan taylor and benny fowler quite a bit, but you don't wanna be a DT ankle sprain away from those kids having to carry your passing game-- especially with no reliable TE on the roster unless heurmann really emerges. . . maybe if worst comes to worst it means signing a lower-priced vet, but even a run-heavy kubes scheme has to have some consistent receiving threats these days. . .

weazel
06-16-2016, 02:03 PM
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/KiyS_NtZCHH33I0ej1QKn0aJT90=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2370274/Refpick.0.gif

He is one hard working dude.

That is one hell of a pick! :lol:

Rick
06-16-2016, 05:35 PM
I absolutely believe Sanders is top 10 talent. Now whether we can spend on 2 guys in the same position like that we will see...

We have no proven pass catching TE and no proven guy behind Sanders that could step in and be a high output player. There may be a guy who will, but no one that is proven.

I personally would give him at-least close to the money. As another poster said, maybe 10 mil with high guarantees.

NightTerror218
06-16-2016, 06:12 PM
Dexker was paid to be the #1 WR for jets

Jsteve01
06-16-2016, 07:46 PM
Well I'm completely conflicted on this one. Because I've always said that you don't let good players and he's a very good player who are also fantastic leaders walk. That said I don't know how you can have 26 million dollars invested in the wide receiver position, and expect to pay guys that would be coming up for contract, and oh by the way we still have to pay Von Miller. I don't know that there's an easy answer to this one there's no way they can pay him 12 million dollars a year though plain and simple. I will say that although people seem to think it would serve the Broncos to pay him now they might be better off to wait until the end of the season given the fact that I'm not expecting fantastic quarterback play and consecutive seasons of around 75 catches shouldn't Garner him 12 million a year.

Hawgdriver
06-16-2016, 07:53 PM
Cody Latimer!

Is that a character in a Louis L'lamour book? Not following you here.

Poet
06-16-2016, 07:53 PM
Is that a character in a Louis L'lamour book? Not following you here.

:lol:

dogfish
06-16-2016, 08:11 PM
Well I'm completely conflicted on this one. Because I've always said that you don't let good players and he's a very good player who are also fantastic leaders walk. That said I don't know how you can have 26 million dollars invested in the wide receiver position, and expect to pay guys that would be coming up for contract, and oh by the way we still have to pay Von Miller. I don't know that there's an easy answer to this one there's no way they can pay him 12 million dollars a year though plain and simple. I will say that although people seem to think it would serve the Broncos to pay him now they might be better off to wait until the end of the season given the fact that I'm not expecting fantastic quarterback play and consecutive seasons of around 75 catches shouldn't Garner him 12 million a year.

maybe we shouldn't have our entire receiving corps budget all invested in one guy who can't keep his head in the game. . . just puttin' that out there. . .

but really, it freaking slays me that we're paying DT's soft ass absolute top dollar, while trying to squeeze von miller, who's about five times the football player DT is. . . .

dogfish
06-16-2016, 08:12 PM
Is that a character in a Louis L'lamour book? Not following you here.

aw man, lookit hawg just bustin' out the l'lamour references like the boss he is. . .

Hawgdriver
06-16-2016, 08:14 PM
aw man, lookit hawg just bustin' out the l'lamour references like the boss he is. . .

The stuff you pick up at the Kinger School of Stylin, right?

dogfish
06-16-2016, 08:39 PM
The stuff you pick up at the Kinger School of Stylin, right?

my man the kinger is an exceptionally promising young fella. . . but he can still learn somethin' from you. . .



totally random off-topic, but have you read anything by christopher moore?

Poet
06-16-2016, 08:43 PM
Hawg taught me how to style.

dogfish
06-16-2016, 09:31 PM
Hawg taught me how to style.

he is a wise sage. . .

VonDoom
06-16-2016, 09:35 PM
maybe we shouldn't have our entire receiving corps budget all invested in one guy who can't keep his head in the game. . . just puttin' that out there. . .

but really, it freaking slays me that we're paying DT's soft ass absolute top dollar, while trying to squeeze von miller, who's about five times the football player DT is. . . .

Weren't we all happy when DT signed his deal last year around this time? He had one "down" year, where he was still sixth in the league in receiving yards. I love Sanders, but having DT around takes a lot of pressure off of him.

VonDoom
06-16-2016, 09:38 PM
Well I'm completely conflicted on this one. Because I've always said that you don't let good players and he's a very good player who are also fantastic leaders walk. That said I don't know how you can have 26 million dollars invested in the wide receiver position, and expect to pay guys that would be coming up for contract, and oh by the way we still have to pay Von Miller. I don't know that there's an easy answer to this one there's no way they can pay him 12 million dollars a year though plain and simple. I will say that although people seem to think it would serve the Broncos to pay him now they might be better off to wait until the end of the season given the fact that I'm not expecting fantastic quarterback play and consecutive seasons of around 75 catches shouldn't Garner him 12 million a year.

I don't think he would get $12 million a year from us anyway. Based on the guaranteed numbers that are out there ($21-24 million over a four year deal), he could probably be had for around $10 million if we were so inclined. Consider - we could give him an $8-10 million signing bonus, spread over the four years. At $21 guaranteed, he could have a base salary of, say $6.5-7 million in the first two years, meaning a cap hit of $8.5-9 or so. His cap hit this year is $6.6, so it's not that much of a difference. After that, he could be cut with only like a $5 million dead money hit after two years, or a possible restructure, etc.

I'm just saying it could be done if they really want him to stick around.

Joel
06-17-2016, 04:00 AM
How many years ago did Decker sign his deal?

Inflation in NFL dollars is pretty steep


Not that steep. But, a lot of it depends on demand. I don't know what next year's wide receiver free agent pool looks like off the top of my head. I do know $12 million per year is the seventh highest paid person at the position currently. He's a nice player, but he's just not that good.
For what it's worth, I agree with both of ya'll: But waiting till a contract's about to expire—or HAS—tends to push the next one well above market value if the guy's worth re-signing. We're not the only ones who've spent the last two seasons watching Sanders unflinchingly climb the ladder on 3rd and long, get crushed, and still hold onto the completion. History suggests Elway'll offer him "fair market value" of $6-7M/yr with $10M guaranteed, go up to his ACTUAL market value as a last resort, then talk about how "we want guys who want to be Broncos" when he leaves for an offer we couldn't match even if we wanted.

Thank God Shanny never pulled that when Elway was PLAYING, huh? ;)

nevcraw
06-17-2016, 10:10 PM
You over pay a little for this guy... A true leader and the best WR on the team without question. He's the reason DT gets any 1:1 situations and is super clutch. The Broncos need to be careful with how many very good players they play their version of chicken with. You screw with Von with BS tactics and stretch sanders out - this will not be the place players are dieing to come to or stay.
SF Was one catch from winning the super bowl and going back and then they all ran like hell / retired etc. - could happen here. Hope Elway is not so stuck in ways he can't figure this all out before it's too late.

Joel
06-18-2016, 01:30 AM
You over pay a little for this guy... A true leader and the best WR on the team without question. He's the reason DT gets any 1:1 situations and is super clutch. The Broncos need to be careful with how many very good players they play their version of chicken with. You screw with Von with BS tactics and stretch sanders out - this will not be the place players are dieing to come to or stay.
It's already happening, because it's not just Von and Sanders: They're only the latest in our perpetual dramas rotating cast. Oz, Jackson, Clady, CJ and Marshall, and that's just in the last few MONTHS. Before that it was DT, then Clady again, and Faxgate's notorious. Many people noted the FA "intangibles" Manning brought in the form of All Pro vets like Ware willing to give discounts for the chance to retire with a Ring: Manning's gone now, so that's off the table.

Thing is, we STILL have another "bigger than his role" player like that to lure other stars with the hopes of SB glory: Von Miller.

For what it's worth, I don't buy all this talk about him skipping 2016 if we refuse his big payday. Right NOW, he's in the best POSSIBLE position for a big contract: At the top of his game and in the prime of his life as the reigning SB MVP who dominated the whole postseason. NONE of that will remain true if he takes a year off; he'll just be the FORMER SB MVP who's a year older, put his salary ahead of his team and leaves people wondering whether he's still in game shape.

Skipping 2016 wouldn't just cost Von a lot of money NOW (though it'd certainly do that: The $14+M tag is for 2016 ALONE is 2/3 of what Von's $21M rookie contract's paid for his CAREER to date.) It'd cost him TENS OF MILLIONS from his prime earning years. I just don't think our Dumb Aggie's THAT dumb.

Simple Jaded
06-18-2016, 03:18 PM
I love Sanders' attitude and I hope he gets Top Dollar, I just can't see sinking that much into WR's. If they do extend him, though, won't bother me at all.

Northman
06-18-2016, 03:21 PM
I love Sanders' attitude and I hope he gets Top Dollar, I just can't see sinking that much into WR's. If they do extend him, though, won't bother me at all.

I would feel much better if we sunk the money into Sanders and not DT because i feel that Sanders has proven to be more valuable. But like you i dont see them paying two receiver top money either.

Simple Jaded
06-18-2016, 03:36 PM
I would feel much better if we sunk the money into Sanders and not DT because i feel that Sanders has proven to be more valuable. But like you i dont see them paying two receiver top money either.

If only DT had Sanders' attitude.

Ravage!!!
06-18-2016, 03:39 PM
If only DT had Sanders' attitude.

DT would be a beast if he had the fire and drive that Sanders has.

Simple Jaded
06-18-2016, 04:33 PM
DT would be a beast if he had the fire and drive that Sanders has.

DT plays like he's 5-11/188 and Sanders plays like he's 6-3/230.

Poet
06-18-2016, 05:21 PM
It's as if one 'bad season' -where DT only has 100 catches and 1300 yards- eliminates his dominance.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
06-18-2016, 05:32 PM
It's as if one 'bad season' -where DT only has 100 catches and 1300 yards- eliminates his dominance.

It's almost like Sanders had better production against #2 corners in single coverage.

Poet
06-18-2016, 06:04 PM
It's almost like Sanders had better production against #2 corners in single coverage.

I award this post twenty style points.

Northman
06-18-2016, 06:21 PM
It's as if one 'bad season' -where DT only has 100 catches and 1300 yards- eliminates his dominance.

Its subjective really. Seeing how each plays on the field just translates different to me honestly. Of course, saying that Sanders has more fire and motivation isnt saying that DT sucks as a receiver even though some people take it that way.

Poet
06-18-2016, 06:48 PM
Its subjective really. Seeing how each plays on the field just translates different to me honestly. Of course, saying that Sanders has more fire and motivation isnt saying that DT sucks as a receiver even though some people take it that way.

It's just the "he'd be a beast part." There's another post talking about how DT plays like he's small, and that's just absurd to me. DT's been one of the better YAC WR's for quite some time. Unless we're to say that his YAC comes from making guys miss like a younger Wes Welker -DT has some moves but come on- then that's clearly a dig.

Northman
06-18-2016, 07:00 PM
It's just the "he'd be a beast part." There's another post talking about how DT plays like he's small, and that's just absurd to me. DT's been one of the better YAC WR's for quite some time. Unless we're to say that his YAC comes from making guys miss like a younger Wes Welker -DT has some moves but come on- then that's clearly a dig.

I think its out of frustration really. Last year was basically a boiling point because every offensive drive was do or die for the offense. While he wasnt the only one to have issues at times he is the one guy we pay to make the plays. For me, i would gladly turn in some of his fancy stats for making other plays when the team really needs them. Last year might be an abberration but he picked the wrong year to struggle.

Poet
06-18-2016, 07:03 PM
I think its out of frustration really.

I understand this. There are times when you're just looking at a player and you're like 'you have made a career out of dominating people, you're in your prime, you're going up against competition you can clearly beat, and we need you. Why on earth is it different this time?"

NightTerror218
06-18-2016, 07:21 PM
I the years together DT i believe is better is every stat. Last year with all the drops DT still had more yards and catches.

Valar Morghulis
06-18-2016, 07:51 PM
I the years together DT i believe is better is every stat. Last year with all the drops DT still had more yards and catches.

I would be interested in a head to head of target vs commission percentage stat , because Sanders just seemed to always step up when the lights were brightest, dt seemed to go missing

dogfish
06-18-2016, 09:50 PM
I the years together DT i believe is better is every stat. Last year with all the drops DT still had more yards and catches.

DT is better. . . pound for pound, though, sanders gets more out of his talent. . .

Northman
06-18-2016, 09:58 PM
DT is better. . . pound for pound, though, sanders gets more out of his talent. . .

Agreed. Last year both players had 6 TD passes each and although DT had more yds receiving he also had 30 more receptions to reach that total. As you said Sanders seems to maximize more with less.

Jsteve01
06-19-2016, 12:31 AM
Lost in all of this well not my son but by many as the fact that even in a down year DT had 30 more catches while facing the other team's better cornerback and double coverage

dogfish
06-19-2016, 01:07 AM
Lost in all of this well not my son but by many as the fact that even in a down year DT had 30 more catches while facing the other team's better cornerback and double coverage

he's the number one receiver-- he gets more targets, he's supposed to have more catches. . . his catch radius is like a foot bigger, easily. . .

no one is saying he sucks. . . i'd love to see him rip a ball away from a DB on sheer determination when we need a big first the way sanders is prone to, though. . .

Simple Jaded
06-19-2016, 03:27 AM
I've said DT is a Top 5 WR, I just like Sanders more.

TXBRONC
06-19-2016, 07:50 AM
It's as if one 'bad season' -where DT only has 100 catches and 1300 yards- eliminates his dominance.

It comes across as though the other years have never happened.

Joel
06-20-2016, 03:14 AM
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2015.htm#rushing_and_receiving::13

Bottom line: In 2015, DT led ALL Broncos in receptions, yards, TDs and (perhaps most significantly for those panning him) catch percentage. That last part speaks to the "but the #1WR gets more targets:" Thrown the same number of balls, DT catches more against the #1CB than Sanders does against the #2CB—even in 2015.

The difference, from my subjective observation, is that DT runs hot and cold, but Sanders is very (though not perfectly) consistent.

The statistical difference is Sanders led ALL Broncos in yards/catch, and by a fair margin (DT was second, but Daniels wasn't far behind.) Last year DT had nearly the same number of targets AND catches as in 2014, but barely HALF the TDs and 2 yds less per catch. He dropped no more balls, but did less with those he caught (and, FWIW, his 2015 AND 2014 catch percentage was ~5% lower than his nearly identical 2012 and 2013 numbers.) Sanders' yds/catch looked like DTs USED to look.

When it's 3rd and "pack a lunch" and we NEED a guy to climb the ladder KNOWING he'll get hammered, Sanders is that guy. That's worth a decent bandaid fund.

VonDoom
06-20-2016, 08:31 AM
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2015.htm#rushing_and_receiving::13

Bottom line: In 2015, DT led ALL Broncos in receptions, yards, TDs and (perhaps most significantly for those panning him) catch percentage. That last part speaks to the "but the #1WR gets more targets:" Thrown the same number of balls, DT catches more against the #1CB than Sanders does against the #2CB—even in 2015.

I was going to bring this up at some point - the cool thing to do seems to be to crap on DT for all the drops last year, but he actually caught a higher percentage of balls than Sanders. Maybe it's perception becoming reality, or maybe he missed a lot of easy ones while Sanders was usually contested. But there's no reason to knock DT at this point. His "down" year put him 6th in the league in receiving yards, with little QB play to speak of.

Simple Jaded
06-20-2016, 10:15 AM
Dude dropped 5.2% of catchable passes, that sounds like a lot.

Northman
06-20-2016, 10:20 AM
Dude dropped 5.2% of catchable passes, that sounds like a lot, I thought I read somewhere that it led the league.

I dont know if it lead the league (I havent seen the "catchable" stats anywhere) but i do remember him dropping a lot of wide open passes last year.

Simple Jaded
06-20-2016, 10:40 AM
I dont know if it lead the league (I havent seen the "catchable" stats anywhere) but i do remember him dropping a lot of wide open passes last year.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/206169/antonio-brown-julio-jones-among-most-featured-receivers

Not sure where these guys get that from, not sure where I read that it led the league. I'll edit post as to not crap on DT.

CrazyHorse
06-20-2016, 10:56 PM
Sanders is good but this would leave us with a bunch of money tied up at the receiver position.

Joel
06-21-2016, 02:27 AM
Dude dropped 5.2% of catchable passes, that sounds like a lot.
It does? 1 in 20? No one but third party presidential candidates thinks 5% is "a lot." :tongue:

Traveler
06-21-2016, 03:54 AM
Sanders has more than earned this type of salary. Sells out his body constantly trying to make plays. Has more heart and toughness than most of his offensive teammates. Keep him, especially since there is a pretty big drop off at the position after he and DT. PAY THE MAN!

sneakers
06-21-2016, 04:53 AM
12$ million per year? no thanks

EastCoastBronco
06-21-2016, 07:57 AM
What little fire the offence had last season was provided in a big way by Sanders.
Pay the bill.

Tned
06-21-2016, 08:09 AM
It does? 1 in 20? No one but third party presidential candidates thinks 5% is "a lot." :tongue:

I guess DT is running for President and I didn't realize it.

In his own words:


"I had a lot of drops I could have made plays on," Thomas said. "I could have had a totally different year [if not for] that."


...


"I was probably thinking too much," Thomas said. "I wasn't looking the ball in. I was trying to run too fast. It was just simple things where I should have made plays."


...
"I don't have to worry about my mom; she's good. Contract is over with. I'm here now, trying to learn what I need to learn, so I won't be rushing it.


"So it's all football."


...


"I think it'll be a big difference," Thomas said. "Coming into training camp, with trying to learn stuff so fast, it wasn't so easy with the new offense," Thomas said.


http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/In-2016-Its-all-football-for-Broncos-Demaryius-Thomas/dfc3706e-9c73-4c13-bf92-e684f14b2723

Simple Jaded
06-22-2016, 01:45 AM
It does? 1 in 20? No one but third party presidential candidates thinks 5% is "a lot." :tongue:

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5700/demaryius-thomas

Good for 3rd in the NFL, so yes, it's a lot. Even still, going by your inconsistent standards, let's say it's not a lot...the timing of his drops were brutal.

Poet
06-22-2016, 01:53 AM
DT > Jaded.

FanInAZ
06-22-2016, 04:00 AM
A 49ers' friend of mine just posted this on FB:


BREAKING: Denver Broncos Ship Von Miller To 49ers For Colin Kaepernick

http://dailysnark.com/breaking-broncos-ship-von-miller-49ers-colin-kaepernick-2/

Northman
06-22-2016, 10:06 AM
The minute i saw that this morning i knew it was fake. They have to try and troll harder. The trade itself isnt even logical so how anyone would fall for it is beyond me.

Ravage!!!
06-22-2016, 10:07 AM
It's just the "he'd be a beast part." There's another post talking about how DT plays like he's small, and that's just absurd to me. DT's been one of the better YAC WR's for quite some time. Unless we're to say that his YAC comes from making guys miss like a younger Wes Welker -DT has some moves but come on- then that's clearly a dig.

He would be a beast. Instead, he goes through the motions. Some have incredible athletic ability, and can use that superior ability for success. While other have that ability, and DRIVE to be great. I don't see that "Drive" in DT. He's good, but he's not great. He has incredible athletic ability that makes him a tough WR to cover, but if he played like he did in the first (losing) Super Bowl more often......then he would be considered a great. He's not beast right now. He's not 'dominant' right now. But he COULD be.

FanInAZ
06-22-2016, 10:13 AM
The minute i saw that this morning i knew it was fake. They have to try and troll harder. The trade itself isnt even logical so how anyone would fall for it is beyond me.

Of course its fake. A website called "dailysnark" is 1 that no one should ever take seriously.

EastCoastBronco
06-22-2016, 11:50 AM
He would be a beast. Instead, he goes through the motions. Some have incredible athletic ability, and can use that superior ability for success. While other have that ability, and DRIVE to be great. I don't see that "Drive" in DT. He's good, but he's not great. He has incredible athletic ability that makes him a tough WR to cover, but if he played like he did in the first (losing) Super Bowl more often......then he would be considered a great. He's not beast right now. He's not 'dominant' right now. But he COULD be.

Well said.
***Looks around waiting for someone to swoop in with the "1300 yards last season" one liner on stats when stats are not at all what is being discussed...***

Poet
06-22-2016, 02:08 PM
I have seen DT go over the middle and get popped. I have seen him run directly into Kam Chancellor and the legion of boom. I've seen that guy catch a screen and run up the field play after play when he knew the other team had it sniffed out and he was going to be punished. I've seen him end a playoff game with a stiffarm, play his ass off with a dislocated shoulder and take a lot of abuse on that field.

That guy has fire, and focus, and drive, and heart. In regards to dominance, if DT had the same type of season he had this past year for the rest of his career, and his career spanned another 7 or eight seasons, he would be a surefire HoFer. If that's not dominant than I don't know what you want.

Ravage!!!
06-22-2016, 04:31 PM
I have seen DT go over the middle and get popped. I have seen him run directly into Kam Chancellor and the legion of boom. I've seen that guy catch a screen and run up the field play after play when he knew the other team had it sniffed out and he was going to be punished. I've seen him end a playoff game with a stiffarm, play his ass off with a dislocated shoulder and take a lot of abuse on that field.

That guy has fire, and focus, and drive, and heart. In regards to dominance, if DT had the same type of season he had this past year for the rest of his career, and his career spanned another 7 or eight seasons, he would be a surefire HoFer. If that's not dominant than I don't know what you want.

I didn't SEE a HoF'er playing on the field. Like I said, he has incredible athletic ability, but doesn't have the DRIVE to FIGHT for the ball. He did in the Super Bowl 2014 against the Seahawks. But I haven't seen that kind of game from him since.

MOtorboat
06-22-2016, 06:11 PM
I have seen DT go over the middle and get popped. I have seen him run directly into Kam Chancellor and the legion of boom. I've seen that guy catch a screen and run up the field play after play when he knew the other team had it sniffed out and he was going to be punished. I've seen him end a playoff game with a stiffarm, play his ass off with a dislocated shoulder and take a lot of abuse on that field.

That guy has fire, and focus, and drive, and heart. In regards to dominance, if DT had the same type of season he had this past year for the rest of his career, and his career spanned another 7 or eight seasons, he would be a surefire HoFer. If that's not dominant than I don't know what you want.

He's the best player on the Broncos offense, and it's not really even that close.

silkamilkamonico
06-22-2016, 07:10 PM
Well said.
***Looks around waiting for someone to swoop in with the "1300 yards last season" one liner on stats when stats are not at all what is being discussed...***

1300 yards at 12.2 yards per catch, 6TD's on 105 catches, and a complete black hole throughout the entire playoffs, nobody should be swooping in with stats in that argument. The playoffs were a clownish performance for a guy of DThomas's ability - 7 catches on 21 targets for a paltry 8.6 ypc in the 3 biggest games of the year? Was he even trying? Somebody of his ability could give 50% effort and top those numbers.

To say DThomas had a bad year is just as ignorant as saying he actually had a good year, and he needs to rebound in a big way this year or people are going to continue to question him and rightfully so.

FanInAZ
06-22-2016, 08:44 PM
1300 yards at 12.2 yards per catch, 6TD's on 105 catches, and a complete black hole throughout the entire playoffs, nobody should be swooping in with stats in that argument. The playoffs were a clownish performance for a guy of DThomas's ability - 7 catches on 21 targets for a paltry 8.6 ypc in the 3 biggest games of the year? Was he even trying? Somebody of his ability could give 50% effort and top those numbers.

To say DThomas had a bad year is just as ignorant as saying he actually had a good year, and he needs to rebound in a big way this year or people are going to continue to question him and rightfully so.

105 Catches (7th in the league) was great

12.4 YPC (Tied 62nd in the league among "qualified receivers" [To qualify, a player must have at least 1.875 receptions per team's games played]) was horrible http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/yardsPerReception/count/41

6 TDs (Tied for 29th in the league) is unacceptable, especially for someone who was 7th in receptions with 105.

Simple Jaded
06-23-2016, 01:08 AM
Top 5 WR.

Poet
06-23-2016, 01:11 AM
Top 5 WR.

He runs around styling on people.

Joel
06-23-2016, 02:16 AM
I have seen DT go over the middle and get popped. I have seen him run directly into Kam Chancellor and the legion of boom. I've seen that guy catch a screen and run up the field play after play when he knew the other team had it sniffed out and he was going to be punished. I've seen him end a playoff game with a stiffarm, play his ass off with a dislocated shoulder and take a lot of abuse on that field.

That guy has fire, and focus, and drive, and heart. In regards to dominance, if DT had the same type of season he had this past year for the rest of his career, and his career spanned another 7 or eight seasons, he would be a surefire HoFer. If that's not dominant than I don't know what you want.
Set a SUPER BOWL RECEPTIONS RECORD with that dislocated shoulder. While we were getting thumped 43-8, not even getting a FIRST DOWN till halfway through the SECOND quarter. And whose lone score, on the third quarters FINAL play, prevented HISTORYS FIRST SUPER BOWL SHUTOUT?


3
0:03
1
10
SEA 14
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass complete short left to Demaryius Thomas (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomDe03.htm) for 14 yards, touchdown
6
36
4.65
7
0.0



Dislocated shoulder and all. For those curious, our Win Probability hit 0.00% six minutes earlier (when the clock passed the last time in the 1993 Divisional Playoffs that Buffalo trailed by 29+ pts.) From then on, the game was statistically unwinnable. Yet there was DT, still giving it his all with 1½ shoulders, until he set a SB record for catches.


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5700/demaryius-thomas

Good for 3rd in the NFL, so yes, it's a lot. Even still, going by your inconsistent standards, let's say it's not a lot...the timing of his drops were brutal.
I think that last part's EXACTLY it: They look a lot worse and more frequent than they are because of WHEN they happen.

Like, which hurt NE* more, the Int on their 2 PAT on their final TD, or the shanked PAT on their initial TD? EITHER would've forced OT, so they were EQUALLY critical, but one's a lot more memorable because 1) one of them ended the game and sent us to the SB, 2) Brady's a much higher profile player than Gostkowski and 3) there were far more chances to compensate for the shank (i.e. the 2 PAT itself.)

Was one truly "worse" than the other though? BOTH lost the game; EITHER would've forced OT. But sliced placekicks make less highlight reels than end zone passes (except for that Bills team....)

Ravage!!!
06-23-2016, 09:45 AM
Top 5 WR.

I don't think he is, even after Calvin Johnson retired. If Calvin came back, he'd be above DT right now.

NightTerror218
06-23-2016, 10:58 AM
DT still had a good year if you look at stats alone. He set a franchise record for most consecutive years with 1300+ yards and 100+ catches to knock off rod smith.

Most teams would die to have DT unless they have a pro bowl #1.

I think he is top 5.

Green
Jones
Brown
Beckman
Thomas
Bryant
Hopkins

Valar Morghulis
06-23-2016, 11:16 AM
DT still had a good year if you look at stats alone. He set a franchise record for most consecutive years with 1300+ yards and 100+ catches to knock off rod smith. Most teams would die to have DT unless they have a pro bowl #1. I think he is top 5. Green Jones Brown Beckman Thomas Bryant Hopkins

If he is not on the top five, he is certainly knocking on the door.

But top five players make clutch plays, DT went missing too much last year, that said, I think he comes back big this season

Ravage!!!
06-23-2016, 11:30 AM
DT still had a good year if you look at stats alone. He set a franchise record for most consecutive years with 1300+ yards and 100+ catches to knock off rod smith.

Most teams would die to have DT unless they have a pro bowl #1.

I think he is top 5.

Green
Jones
Brown
Beckman
Thomas
Bryant
Hopkins

I'd still put Brandon Marshall over him, and probably Hopkins.. along with Brown, Jones, Beckham, and Green. But as you said... just because he's not in my top 5 doesn't mean I think he's outside 8.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
06-23-2016, 11:32 AM
If he is not on the top five, he is certainly knocking on the door.

But top five players make clutch plays, DT went missing too much last year, that said, I think he comes back big this season

I agree he wasn't as productive as in days past. IMO, his drops were only part of the equation. The poor play from the offensive line and qb position were all huge contributing factors.

What I definitively believe is misguided is the notion he lacks heart. His heart is evident in his reputation as a hard worker, and is visible in the effort he puts forth blocking for he running game. We shouldn't confuse a lack of concentration (looking the ball in) with a lack of heart.

Ravage!!!
06-23-2016, 11:39 AM
I agree he wasn't as productive as in days past. IMO, his drops were only part of the equation. The poor play from the offensive line and qb position were all huge contributing factors.

What I definitively believe is misguided is the notion he lacks heart. His heart is evident in his reputation as a hard worker, and is visible in the effort he puts forth blocking for he running game. We shouldn't confuse a lack of concentration (looking the ball in) with a lack of heart.

Hmm... lack of heart is harsh, you are right.

But I definitely would like to see more "fight" in him. I don't think anyone is trying to say that he's a bad football player or a bad athlete, and CERTAINLY not saying a bad guy. The guy is a great guy. I think that sometimes team fans look at their own player and see the GUY that they love (off the field) and transfer that to the field. He works hard in practice, is a GREAT guy, and puts up solid numbers.....but then on the other side of the field is a guy that isn't blessed with his skills, yet is THE guy I WANT the ball to go to in 'meaningful' moments. An important 1st down, PLEASE throw it to Sanders.

Poet
06-23-2016, 01:23 PM
Hmm... lack of heart is harsh, you are right.

But I definitely would like to see more "fight" in him. I don't think anyone is trying to say that he's a bad football player or a bad athlete, and CERTAINLY not saying a bad guy. The guy is a great guy. I think that sometimes team fans look at their own player and see the GUY that they love (off the field) and transfer that to the field. He works hard in practice, is a GREAT guy, and puts up solid numbers.....but then on the other side of the field is a guy that isn't blessed with his skills, yet is THE guy I WANT the ball to go to in 'meaningful' moments. An important 1st down, PLEASE throw it to Sanders.

I can find this take to be more palatable. I'm sure that matters a lot to you.

Poet
06-23-2016, 01:24 PM
I don't think he is, even after Calvin Johnson retired. If Calvin came back, he'd be above DT right now.

You're a monster.

NightTerror218
06-23-2016, 03:27 PM
He had an off year and still got 1300 yards and 100 receptions. You guys are too picky ffs. I am not sure how there is much if a debate.

He did better then Sanders and also look who was throwing him the ball. Sanders made some big catches and put himself out there. I cant remember which game but DT caught a 13 yard or so pass on 3rd down. If not for the 1st down we might have lost the game. I can not think of a single game that was compromised by DT.

DT stated he did not complete some catches because he took his eyes off the ball and did not follow it all the way to his hands. When you have to wait 20 seconds because peyton has no zip on the ball i can see that. So has a 5% drop rate that is 1 every 20 or like 1 every 2 games.

NightTerror218
06-23-2016, 03:29 PM
I'd still put Brandon Marshall over him, and probably Hopkins.. along with Brown, Jones, Beckham, and Green. But as you said... just because he's not in my top 5 doesn't mean I think he's outside 8.

Brandon marshall in prime but not marshall now. Hopkins i did not because he had 1 good season. See how he does over a couple seasons. I am picking top 5 in nfl not top 5 in a single season. DT has been fairly consistent.

Ravage!!!
06-23-2016, 05:16 PM
Brandon marshall in prime but not marshall now. Hopkins i did not because he had 1 good season. See how he does over a couple seasons. I am picking top 5 in nfl not top 5 in a single season. DT has been fairly consistent.

No.. I'd still put Marshall over him now.

silkamilkamonico
06-23-2016, 06:48 PM
Could certainly make a case for Marshall over DThomas, especially if you want to include stats, and obviously last year which Marshall had a significantly better year that DThomas.

Simple Jaded
06-24-2016, 12:28 AM
Just think how good Marshall's stats would be if he didn't run sideways and backwards half the time.

Northman
06-24-2016, 10:09 AM
Brandon marshall in prime but not marshall now. Hopkins i did not because he had 1 good season. See how he does over a couple seasons. I am picking top 5 in nfl not top 5 in a single season. DT has been fairly consistent.

Uh, Marshall has had 1,000 yd receiving seasons 8 of his 10 seasons in the NFL. Last year he had 109 recs for 1502 yds and 14 TD's which is more than DT last year. What exactly is not consistent about that?

Ravage!!!
06-24-2016, 10:27 AM
Uh, Marshall has had 1,000 yd receiving seasons 8 of his 10 seasons in the NFL. Last year he had 109 recs for 1502 yds and 14 TD's which is more than DT last year. What exactly is not consistent about that?

You are dead right, Marshall has been highly more consistant and dominant over the years than DT. Even as soon as last year, he was better, when supposedly 'out of his prime.' But in Night's defense, I think his consistent comment was in reference to Hopkins.

silkamilkamonico
06-24-2016, 04:21 PM
Just think how good Marshall's stats would be if he didn't run sideways and backwards half the time.

It would probably be similar to DThomas if DThoms could actually catch passes 8 yards past the LOS.

NightTerror218
06-24-2016, 05:38 PM
Uh, Marshall has had 1,000 yd receiving seasons 8 of his 10 seasons in the NFL. Last year he had 109 recs for 1502 yds and 14 TD's which is more than DT last year. What exactly is not consistent about that?

I never said marshall was not consistent i said DT has been. And Hopkins has had 1 great year. Marshall had a great year no doubt but i think he is not in prime and has had some injury issues in 2014.

If you average the last 4 years, DT has been better than marshall. 1300 yards was his worst year in 4 years. 1600 yards last year and normally around 1450 yards the previous 2 yrs.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
06-24-2016, 05:49 PM
Manning was the worst qb in the NFL last year and people are citing 1300 yards as evidence DT isn't very good.

Some people's kids....

Ravage!!!
06-24-2016, 05:51 PM
Manning was the worst qb in the NFL last year and people are citing 1300 yards as evidence DT isn't very good.

Some people's kids....

are they? I havent' seen that.

Valar Morghulis
06-24-2016, 06:01 PM
No one is saying he is no good and everyone acknowledges he is at worst a top 8 receiver.

People are saying that they prefer the heart sanders plays with and that if DT truly wants to earn his huge salary he needs to step up in big games and at big moments. At least that is what i think people are saying lol

Maybe he got that hurt in superbowl 48 - he lost his bottle, as since that game i have no seen the same level of fight. If thats the case, i get it - trauma is trauma.

Ravage!!!
06-24-2016, 06:11 PM
I never said marshall was not consistent i said DT has been. And Hopkins has had 1 great year. Marshall had a great year no doubt but i think he is not in prime and has had some injury issues in 2014.

If you average the last 4 years, DT has been better than marshall. 1300 yards was his worst year in 4 years. 1600 yards last year and normally around 1450 yards the previous 2 yrs.

Interesting that we are using stats and QB play to justify DT's numbers last year, yet don't want to point out that DT had the best QB 3 years prior to last, while Marshall absolutely did not..... since we are speaking of "averaging over the last 4 years."

I mean, is it a coincidence on who was the QB the lat 4 years? So if we are going to give DT props for 1300 yrds while having the "worst QB last year"...then shouldn't we also point out that his numbers were probably boosted by having the 'best QB for the first 3' (of those 4 you mentioned)?

NightTerror218
06-24-2016, 06:30 PM
Interesting that we are using stats and QB play to justify DT's numbers last year, yet don't want to point out that DT had the best QB 3 years prior to last, while Marshall absolutely did not..... since we are speaking of "averaging over the last 4 years."

I mean, is it a coincidence on who was the QB the lat 4 years? So if we are going to give DT props for 1300 yrds while having the "worst QB last year"...then shouldn't we also point out that his numbers were probably boosted by having the 'best QB for the first 3' (of those 4 you mentioned)?

Well are you going to mention the Fitz had his best career year and now things he is top 5 money QB? Marshall had Cutler before him. So he has not had bottom of the barrel QBs throwi g at him. I would sayvthe last 2 years he has had better QB performance.

And are you going to mention that the last 2 years manning was not the best QB and DT still had 1600 yards 2 seasons ago.

Keep cheery picking arguments. But since DT had a real passing QB he has done pretty damn well.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
06-24-2016, 07:03 PM
are they? I havent' seen that.

Not you, silk can be a blow hard at times.

silkamilkamonico
06-25-2016, 12:14 AM
Ain't nobody saying DThomas is bad. He's a legit top talent and we need him to be successful. He just didn't have a very good year last year and really needs a rebound year in a Not For Long league.

The discussion point here has been Marshall vs Thomas. Marshall has been pretty remarkable throughout his career, has had all types of different QB's throwing him the ball, and is always really productive, whether it's catches, and/or yards, and/pr TD's. He isn't showing any signs of slowing down either.

I don't worry so much about the drops with DThomas, he needs to improve on that but I think it works itself out. I won't even bother going into the poor playoff performance, but my deal with his season regardless of all the catches, is a 12.4 average along with a 4.7 average YAC. It's like he caught everything within 8 yards of the LOS. He's an explosive player and we need him to make plays down the field. He has the opportunity to rebound this year, and he certainly has the ability. Denver just absolutely needs that from him this year. Last year was not a good year for a guy of his talent. Ain't no shame in speaking the truth. 1 season of a down year doesn't mean he still isn't legitimately talented, but he just needs to be better this year.

MOtorboat
06-25-2016, 12:26 AM
Thomas was eighth in the league in first downs. He's fine.

Simple Jaded
06-25-2016, 01:54 AM
DT is a Champion.

#Scoreboard.

Poet
06-25-2016, 02:27 AM
http://www.nfl.com/player/brandonmarshall/2495893/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/demaryiusthomas/497328/careerstats

They're fairly comparable players. In recent years both had have huge seasons while being 'the guy' on teams with a good amount of weapons. The Bears have had him, Bennett, Forte, and Jeffry. Last year the Jets had Marshall, Ivory, and Decker. While Cutler is erratic, he's certainly a QB good enough to help a WR put up some big numbers. DT had Manning, and other than last year that was a huge boon, so he does have an edge in that department. With that being said, before you kill DT for not having double digit TDs and applaud Marshall for having a bunch of scores, half of Marshall's career he's failed to get ten or more TD's.

To me, I think DT puts up close if not damn near the same numbers as Marshall did in New York, while Marshall would be closer to what DT did in Denver. If drops are a huge deal, it would be strange to champion Marshall over DT as Marshall's biggest career weakness are the drops. I would take DT over Marshall, but I can understand why Ravage feels the way he does about the guy.

Poet
06-25-2016, 02:30 AM
It would probably be similar to DThomas if DThoms could actually catch passes 8 yards past the LOS.

In case people were taking issue with Al's statement about how people are saying DT's not very good, what would you call a WR who can't catch a pass eight yards past the LOS?

Had DT not come off that gigantic payday two seasons ago, I doubt ost fans would have been as hard on him. It's also easier to fall in love with Sander's heart when the expectations are lower and you're not looking for him to put up huge numbers. Give Sanders DT's role and then tell me how much you love his heart when his statistics drop. Then it'll go from 'we love his heart' to 'he needs to produce more'.

Ravage!!!
06-25-2016, 10:38 AM
Not you, silk can be a blow hard at times.

silk is just probably the most negative poster we've seen behind Joel.

Poet
06-25-2016, 02:29 PM
silk is just probably the most negative poster we've seen behind Joel.

You show me no respect.

Ravage!!!
06-25-2016, 02:35 PM
You show me no respect.

hah... I put you on a level that just isn't compared to others.

Poet
06-25-2016, 02:36 PM
hah... I put you on a level that just isn't compared to others.

I love you, man. You still down in Missouri?

Ravage!!!
06-25-2016, 02:47 PM
Had DT not come off that gigantic payday two seasons ago, I doubt ost fans would have been as hard on him. It's also easier to fall in love with Sander's heart when the expectations are lower and you're not looking for him to put up huge numbers. Give Sanders DT's role and then tell me how much you love his heart when his statistics drop. Then it'll go from 'we love his heart' to 'he needs to produce more'.

Yes. Of course. Higher expectations are in direct relation to their pay. Just watch the boards every time someone gets a raise. Look at all the 'hurt feelings' of Brock leaving? Brock isn't the one holding a grudge, we are, because he got paid.

So if Sanders got the high pay that DT did, yeah.. we'd be looking at him as the #1 WR on the team. But that still doesn't mean we can't watch the games and see the effort that Sanders puts into going after the ball compared to DT does. If Sanders was the #1, we might be saying "he's good, he gives it all on the field, but he just doesn't deserve #1 money."

So I think we would be criticizing his production vs the pay, but it wouldn't be the same criticisms. We aren't criticizing DT's talent. We are criticizing the fact that it seems very obvious that he doesn't have the fight, the drive, nor the effort on the field that our #2 WR does. The reason that bothers us (other than the obvious), is because we KNOW that we've seen it before from him. We know that if he had the SAME effort, drive, and fight of our #2 WR, he very well could be a top 2 WR in the NFL.

It's not really an insult to DT's talent to comment that he doesn't seem to have the same fight as Sanders does. We know DT is talented. We know he's a great guy. We just want to see that same determination we saw in the Super Bowl 2014. THAT guy... whomever that was that showed up THAT day...was a BEAST. He has all the physical skills to be good without it, and THAT is what we've see from him. Good. But if we could mesh the attitude, fight, and Sander's effort with DT's physical gifts... then we would have a GREAT WR.

Ravage!!!
06-25-2016, 02:49 PM
I love you, man. You still down in Missouri?

YEah.. still in southern MO. I need to move somewhere that has temps about 70-76 all year round.

Poet
06-25-2016, 02:52 PM
He's a great WR right now. My point in the criticisms of DT and Sanders is that if Sanders got that money the fans wouldn't care about the heart, just as the fans don't seem to really care about the production of DT this past year, especially in the harsh context he played in. I don't see him as not playing with the same fire and heart. I see him as playing through a slump, a mental wall. I suppose that's the main difference.

If you are still down in Missouri, one of us should make the trip so we can watch a game together. So we don't kill one another, we could refrain from referencing Eli Manning, DT, and Tom Brady.

Ravage!!!
06-25-2016, 03:01 PM
He's a great WR right now. My point in the criticisms of DT and Sanders is that if Sanders got that money the fans wouldn't care about the heart, just as the fans don't seem to really care about the production of DT this past year, especially in the harsh context he played in. I don't see him as not playing with the same fire and heart. I see him as playing through a slump, a mental wall. I suppose that's the main difference.

If you are still down in Missouri, one of us should make the trip so we can watch a game together. So we don't kill one another, we could refrain from referencing Eli Manning, DT, and Tom Brady.

He's good now, not great. Can't have so many WRs be debatably better, and be 'great.' There is no questions to great. If it's a 'mental wall'... that mental wall could be the mental block that is keeping him from having the same heart that Sander's has :D

Eli, DT, and Brady...better add Talib to that list. I would absolutely drive to watch a game with you..... but we better refine our list, I'm sure there are more we should add.

Northman
06-25-2016, 03:03 PM
Brock isn't the one holding a grudge,

Thats not really true. Brock certainly held a grudge after getting benched and was part of his reason for leaving.

Poet
06-25-2016, 03:04 PM
The only WR's better than DT right now are Brown and Julio Jones. Hopkins is a two year career; same thing for ODB. Green isn't better. DT! DT! DT! DT!

We better add Talib to that list or we're both sorry. We can talk about Brandon Marshall though.

Simple Jaded
06-25-2016, 03:07 PM
I think the only one not holding a grudge in the Brent/Broncos drama is the Broncos. They got a passive aggressive shot in and moved on once they got their guy.

Northman
06-25-2016, 03:08 PM
I think the only one not holding a grudge in the Brent/Broncos drama is the Broncos. They got a passive aggressive shot in and moved on once they got their guy.

Had Brent still been a Bronco and Denver drafted Lynch i could easily see Brent playing handball the following year.

Lmao

Poet
06-25-2016, 03:09 PM
Who wins between Brock and Paxton in a fist fight?

Northman
06-25-2016, 03:09 PM
Who wins between Brock and Paxton in a fist fight?

Brocks wife.

Ravage!!!
06-25-2016, 03:14 PM
The only WR's better than DT right now are Brown and Julio Jones. Hopkins is a two year career; same thing for ODB. Green isn't better. DT! DT! DT! DT!

We better add Talib to that list or we're both sorry. We can talk about Brandon Marshall though.

Uhmmm... ok. (since we can talk about Brandon, Marshall is still better than DT.)

Ravage!!!
06-25-2016, 03:15 PM
I think the only one not holding a grudge in the Brent/Broncos drama is the Broncos. They got a passive aggressive shot in and moved on once they got their guy.

Didn't say Broncos, it's the fans. It's the Bronco fans that keep a watch on everything he (Brock) does. If we didn't 'care'.... we certainly do a lot of caring.

dogfish
06-25-2016, 04:08 PM
He's a great WR right now. My point in the criticisms of DT and Sanders is that if Sanders got that money the fans wouldn't care about the heart, just as the fans don't seem to really care about the production of DT this past year, especially in the harsh context he played in. I don't see him as not playing with the same fire and heart. I see him as playing through a slump, a mental wall. I suppose that's the main difference.


oh, harsh context, my ass! his mom got out of jail, she didn't get killed in a car crash, FFS. . . at some point, it's just an excuse. . . every year, guys play through tougher circumstances and don't let it bother them on the field. . . DT couldn't do that-- he looked out of it all season. . . he knows as well as anyone that he had a down year and it's not really acceptable at his pay rate. . . we'll see if he can bounce back with a more consistent season. . .

Poet
06-25-2016, 04:15 PM
Well I was more going with having an noodle armed QB and a young doucher be his QB on a team with a bad offensive line and a hit or miss running game...but, thanks for that Dogfish. :shocked:

dogfish
06-25-2016, 04:37 PM
Well I was more going with having an noodle armed QB and a young doucher be his QB on a team with a bad offensive line and a hit or miss running game...but, thanks for that Dogfish. :shocked:

oh. . . i don't know about all that-- he did okay with freakin' tebow chuckin' him the ball down the stretch of that year. . . my problem with DT last year certainly wasn't the numbers he posted-- it was the number of drops, and the frequency of them that occurred in big situations like third downs, or big play opportunities down the field. . . he's admitted himself that he wasn't as focused as he needed to be, and that his mom's situation was part of that, so it's not like it's some big secret. . . besides, how can it be the QB's fault when he hits a guy dead-on square on the hands, and he drops it?

Poet
06-25-2016, 04:44 PM
oh. . . i don't know about all that-- he did okay with freakin' tebow chuckin' him the ball down the stretch of that year. . . my problem with DT last year certainly wasn't the numbers he posted-- it was the number of drops, and the frequency of them that occurred in big situations like third downs, or big play opportunitiesw down the field. . . he's admitted himself that he wasn't as focused as he needed to be, and that his mom's situation was part of that, so it's not like it's some big secret. . . besides, how c an it be the QB's fault when he hits a guy dead-on square on the hands, and he drops it?

When you're QB can't throw the ball down the field, and a big part of your game is the deep ball, your numbers suffer. That makes your ability to abuse people on screens and shorter passes suffer, too. So I think his numbers last year were actually on part with his best seasons. In regards to his drops, yeah he had a bad year. But I also remember a couple of times in the postseason he would make a nice catch on third down and I'd point that out and his detractors would stay silent...then a few series go by and DT hasn't had more than a catch or two and suddenly the 'omfg DT is blah blah blah' would appear.

Guys who try hard can try so hard they lose focus. You can psych yourself out. In regards to his mom coming out of prison, well, that can be a huge deal. She was in prison for what, two decades or so? He essentially grew up without a mother. Before you push that aside too much, I would ask you to think about what that might mean for you in your life. Then take that and and it upon the life of a NFL star.

I ride with DT.

Simple Jaded
06-25-2016, 05:42 PM
Didn't say Broncos, it's the fans. It's the Bronco fans that keep a watch on everything he (Brock) does. If we didn't 'care'.... we certainly do a lot of caring.

Vic Lombardi talked about that the other day, Brent posted a harmless pic of him golfing and the comments he got from Broncos' were embarrassing.

TXBRONC
06-26-2016, 07:36 AM
Dude dropped 5.2% of catchable passes, that sounds like a lot.

It is a lot drops but he still had over 100 catches and over 1,200 yards receiving.

NightTerror218
06-26-2016, 09:54 PM
It is a lot drops but he still had over 100 catches and over 1,200 yards receiving.

It is not a lot of drops. 100 catches, 5% is 5 drops. That is nothing!!!!!

MOtorboat
06-26-2016, 10:03 PM
It is not a lot of drops. 100 catches, 5% is 5 drops. That is nothing!!!!!

Drop percentage is on targets. 170 targets, I believe, so officially 8 or 9 drops.

I still find the criticisms to be a tad silly.

Poet
06-26-2016, 10:06 PM
Drop percentage is on targets. 170 targets, I believe, so officially 8 or 9 drops.

I still find the criticisms to be a tad silly.


+12 style points.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 12:57 AM
DT has never and will never lay out or dive for a ball. He will never be elite until he does. It also makes him soft. DTs panzy play and his weak mind being intimidated by the patriots makes him earn a spot on my shit list.

Poet
06-27-2016, 01:05 AM
That is the dumbest post I have ever read. I am truly embarrassed for you.

MOtorboat
06-27-2016, 01:07 AM
He doesn't catch passes further than eight yards. He doesn't lay out. He doesn't run for yards after the catch. He drops every pass. He doesn't give a shit.

What a bunch of complete and absolute bullshit.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t0U3FiI_QZc&feature=youtu.be

MOtorboat
06-27-2016, 01:09 AM
He did something last year that only three receivers in the history of the game have accomplished.

Think about that when you read these idiotic criticisms.

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 07:08 AM
It is not a lot of drops. 100 catches, 5% is 5 drops. That is nothing!!!!!

5% isn't equal to five drops.

slim
06-27-2016, 09:13 AM
I was disappointed in some of the drops last year too, but some of you are taking it too far

Davii
06-27-2016, 09:17 AM
He doesn't catch passes further than eight yards. He doesn't lay out. He doesn't run for yards after the catch. He drops every pass. He doesn't give a shit.

What a bunch of complete and absolute bullshit.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t0U3FiI_QZc&feature=youtu.be

Your use of video proof of point is welcomed. DT is a beast. He had, by his own personal standards, a down year. That "down year" still had him recognized by his peers as the #62 player in the NFL. Glad he's a Bronco.

Davii
06-27-2016, 09:18 AM
He did something last year that only three receivers in the history of the game have accomplished.

Think about that when you read these idiotic criticisms.

Three including him, correct? It was only Rice and Harrison before?

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 10:20 AM
DT has never and will never lay out or dive for a ball. He will never be elite until he does. It also makes him soft. DTs panzy play and his weak mind being intimidated by the patriots makes him earn a spot on my shit list.

He considered one of the best in League.

Northman
06-27-2016, 11:06 AM
DT is Elite, just like Owens was Elite despite some of his wide open drops. But it doesnt make it any less frustrating to watch.

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 11:26 AM
DT is Elite, just like Owens was Elite despite some of his wide open drops. But it doesnt make it any less frustrating to watch.

It is frustrating but it's just as frustrating when other receivers drop the ball.

Northman
06-27-2016, 11:38 AM
It is frustrating but it's just as frustrating when other receivers drop the ball.

To an extent i would agree, except those guys dont get paid the big bucks so the expectations for them to catch passes isnt really there as it is for a guy like DT.

MOtorboat
06-27-2016, 11:43 AM
Three including him, correct? It was only Rice and Harrison before?

Yes.

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 11:48 AM
To an extent i would agree, except those guys dont get paid the big bucks so the expectations for them to catch passes isnt really there as it is for a guy like DT.

True, but the other also do not draw same attention that Thomas does. That said, the number drops in relation to the number of targets is small.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 01:16 PM
He doesn't catch passes further than eight yards. He doesn't lay out. He doesn't run for yards after the catch. He drops every pass. He doesn't give a shit.

What a bunch of complete and absolute bullshit.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t0U3FiI_QZc&feature=youtu.be



Ya, if you want to make shit up its bullshit, but if you want to actually go by what was said, DT doesnt dive, then you are back to your thumb up your ass. Now please go ahead and find me 5 plays of him diving for the ball. I will wait while you stir up some more bullshit, the ground here is getting a little soggy though.


That is the dumbest post I have ever read. I am truly embarrassed for you.

You are so so wrong, but because you are a new broncos fan you get a miniature pass.



He considered one of the best in League.

I never said he was not one of the best.

Northman
06-27-2016, 01:30 PM
Have you been drinking UR? You are pretty salty today brother. lol

underrated29
06-27-2016, 01:32 PM
Have you been drinking UR? You are pretty salty today brother. lol

nada. Mo just needs a good reset from time to time and he is the best to give it too.
(I think he likes it)

MOtorboat
06-27-2016, 01:34 PM
Ya, if you want to make shit up its bullshit, but if you want to actually go by what was said, DT doesnt dive, then you are back to your thumb up your ass. Now please go ahead and find me 5 plays of him diving for the ball. I will wait while you stir up some more bullshit, the ground here is getting a little soggy though.



You are so so wrong, but because you are a new broncos fan you get a miniature pass.




I never said he was not one of the best.

I didn't make anything up.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 01:43 PM
I didn't make anything up.

No?
Let me refresh you...



WHAT I SAID:


DT has never and will never lay out or dive for a ball. He will never be elite until he does. It also makes him soft. DTs panzy play and his weak mind being intimidated by the patriots makes him earn a spot on my shit list.


WHAT YOU SAID I SAID:


He doesn't catch passes further than eight yards. He doesn't lay out. He doesn't run for yards after the catch. He drops every pass. He doesn't give a shit.

What a bunch of complete and absolute bullshit.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t0U3FiI_QZc&feature=youtu.be





See the discrepancy?
Btw- where are those dive plays? I only asked for 3

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 01:43 PM
Ya, if you want to make shit up its bullshit, but if you want to actually go by what was said, DT doesnt dive, then you are back to your thumb up your ass. Now please go ahead and find me 5 plays of him diving for the ball. I will wait while you stir up some more bullshit, the ground here is getting a little soggy though.



You are so so wrong, but because you are a new broncos fan you get a miniature pass.




I never said he was not one of the best.

Wait, he won't dive for balls, basically doesn't go all out and plays like a panzy, and yet you're not saying he's not one of the best? Sorry Under, that doesn't fly.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 01:48 PM
Wait, he won't dive for balls, basically doesn't go all out and plays like a panzy, and yet you're not saying he's not one of the best? Sorry Under, that doesn't fly.



He wont and doesn't dive for balls. Fact.
He played like a panzy against NE. Fact.
I never said he wasnt one of the best. I said wasnt elite.

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 01:58 PM
He wont and doesn't dive for balls. Fact.
He played like a panzy against NE. Fact.
I never said he wasnt one of the best. I said wasnt elite.

Right, being one of best means he's elite and yes he is elite.

MOtorboat
06-27-2016, 02:09 PM
No?
Let me refresh you...



WHAT I SAID:




WHAT YOU SAID I SAID:







See the discrepancy?
Btw- where are those dive plays? I only asked for 3

I'm not playing stupid ass semantics with you. Lay out = lay out and dive. It's the same ******* thing. And he does it all the time. Shit, half the time he doesn't have to dive because he high points the ball. Manning didn't throw it out to him to dive at like Sanders because he didn't have to. He's 6 foot 4, so Manning put it up so he could go get it.

Stupid semantic arguments are stupid semantic arguments.

slim
06-27-2016, 02:17 PM
I thought "lay out" meant to lay in a lounge chair by the pool and soak up rays?

MOtorboat
06-27-2016, 02:18 PM
I thought "lay out" meant to lay in a lounge chair by the pool and soak up rays?

I'd do that if I had an offseason too.

dogfish
06-27-2016, 02:57 PM
I thought "lay out" meant to lay in a lounge chair by the pool and soak up rays?

just remember, when DT asks you to pass him the sunscreen, you should hand it to him rather than tossing it. . . :heh:


#couldn'tresist
#MOisgonnakillme

MOtorboat
06-27-2016, 03:01 PM
just remember, when DT asks you to pass him the sunscreen, you should hand it to him rather than tossing it. . . :heh:


#couldn'tresist
#MOisgonnakillme

You'd drop the sunscreen on purpose, wouldn't you?

underrated29
06-27-2016, 03:13 PM
Right, being one of best means he's elite and yes he is elite.



Elite are the best of the best.

Antonio Brown is Elite.
Calvin JOhnson was Elite.
ODB is Elite.
Julio is Elite.

Dt is below them. He is amongst the best, but he is not. Id put Dez over him, maybe Deandre Hopkins too, but he has to prove more.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 03:19 PM
I'm not playing stupid ass semantics with you. Lay out = lay out and dive. It's the same ******* thing. And he does it all the time. Shit, half the time he doesn't have to dive because he high points the ball. Manning didn't throw it out to him to dive at like Sanders because he didn't have to. He's 6 foot 4, so Manning put it up so he could go get it.

Stupid semantic arguments are stupid semantic arguments.


No, youre just playing stupid ass.
I said nothing about catching a pass 8 yards, going deep, drops or any of the other bullshit You Made Up. You made it all up, its all right there in your quote.


And no, you cannot even point out one single time he has diven? Dove? Dived? (slick, help) for a ball.


Once again we are not talking about High Pointing a ball. He is good at that. No one has ever complained about that. In fact it is completely irrelevant to my post and the topic.


So maybe, just maybe, you can enlighten us all. Find one play, tell us a story about one play- especially since "he does it all the time" that DT has EVER made a diving catch or diving catch/drop....NOT a jump up for a ball. A DIVE.

TEBOW
ORTON
MANNING
BROCK

You dont think those qbs throw balls that wr have to dive for? Remember the colts game, the pats game or the bengals game or the steelers game where DT was just a tad tad tad overthrown down the sidelines. Had he ever tried to dive he would have made the catch or at least touched the ball. Dude wont. he is soft.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 03:21 PM
You'd drop the sunscreen on purpose, wouldn't you?

Dogfish doesnt lay out.

MOtorboat
06-27-2016, 03:21 PM
No, youre just playing stupid ass.
I said nothing about catching a pass 8 yards, going deep, drops or any of the other bullshit You Made Up. You made it all up, its all right there in your quote.


And no, you cannot even point out one single time he has diven? Dove? Dived? (slick, help) for a ball.


Once again we are not talking about High Pointing a ball. He is good at that. No one has ever complained about that. In fact it is completely irrelevant to my post and the topic.


So maybe, just maybe, you can enlighten us all. Find one play, tell us a story about one play- especially since "he does it all the time" that DT has EVER made a diving catch or diving catch/drop....NOT a jump up for a ball. A DIVE.

TEBOW
ORTON
MANNING
BROCK

You dont think those qbs throw balls that wr have to dive for? Remember the colts game, the pats game or the bengals game or the steelers game where DT was just a tad tad tad overthrown down the sidelines. Had he ever tried to dive he would have made the catch or at least touched the ball. Dude wont. he is soft.

There's a reason I didn't quote your post, you idiot. I read and responded to the entire thread, not just you.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 03:26 PM
There's a reason I didn't quote your post, you idiot. I read and responded to the entire thread, not just you.


You used my exact words. Words no one else had used. That is to my post.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 03:27 PM
And you still say DT does it all the time.


We are waiting for you to show us any 1 single time he has done it. Ever.

MOtorboat
06-27-2016, 03:32 PM
You used my exact words. Words no one else had used. That is to my post.

I used one of your phrases, and then phrases from others. It's why I didn't quote your post.

MOtorboat
06-27-2016, 03:33 PM
And you still say DT does it all the time.


We are waiting for you to show us any 1 single time he has done it. Ever.

I did. Go watch that video. Watch him jump and twist his body backward to catch a pass. That's laying out in my book. I'm not wasting any more of my time on your little petty crusade against Thomas.

BroncoJoe
06-27-2016, 03:42 PM
DT doesn't have to "lay out" for a ball because he's always in the right spot, and can catch the ball over, under, across and between most defenders.

"he's not elite because he doesn't lay out for the ball" is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. Sorry, UR. You're whole premise is stupid.

jw6Q6l2iR1k

You want one?? Check out 5:18 of this video. Even though I think your argument is dumb, there is your "one".

BroncoJoe
06-27-2016, 03:52 PM
I mean, that video shows how much punishment the kid takes, and how if you throw to a spot, he'll get it. One way or another, he'll go get it.

DenBronx
06-27-2016, 03:58 PM
Right, being one of best means he's elite and yes he is elite.



Elite are the best of the best.

Antonio Brown is Elite.
Calvin JOhnson was Elite.
ODB is Elite.
Julio is Elite.

Dt is below them. He is amongst the best, but he is not. Id put Dez over him, maybe Deandre Hopkins too, but he has to prove more.


Just bring up the stats and ring comparison.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 04:32 PM
I did. Go watch that video. Watch him jump and twist his body backward to catch a pass. That's laying out in my book. I'm not wasting any more of my time on your little petty crusade against Thomas.

No, im not talking about jumping up. Im talking about diving for a ball. How many times deep down the sidelines has he just missed a catch off his fingers because he did not dive? The elite ones dive for it. The elite ones get it and make the catch. I have no crusade against DT, but I alsot am not going to suck him off and say he is the best WR either. He is not elite. Those little extra plays, like diving for ball, for instance, are what separate him from being Elite and just really good.


DT doesn't have to "lay out" for a ball because he's always in the right spot, and can catch the ball over, under, across and between most defenders.

"he's not elite because he doesn't lay out for the ball" is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. Sorry, UR. You're whole premise is stupid.

jw6Q6l2iR1k

You want one?? Check out 5:18 of this video. Even though I think your argument is dumb, there is your "one".



He is not Elite. And not diving is one of the reasons why.

I will accept that play. For a guy who "DOES IT ALL THE TIME" a little 2 yard falling down play sure seems weak. But he did actually dive. First ive sever seen. But it is acceptable. Once again, for an Elite WR that does this on the regular youd think someone would have a more then 1- 2 yard td route.


So where are we just for curiosity? 100+ catches 4 years in a row and 1 diving catch, from Tebow. So 400+ catches and 1 of them is a play where he actually dove. Screams like he does it all the time to me. Elite fa sho!

BroncoJoe
06-27-2016, 04:35 PM
Elite players don't have to dive for the ball, UR. I don't recall Jerry Rice ever diving for a ball, yet he's widely considered to be the best ever.

You do understand that diving for the ball means you're on the ground, right? Maybe, just maybe, it's better to keep your feet and actually catch the ball so you can get some additional yards?

Just a thought.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 04:38 PM
Elite players don't have to dive for the ball, UR. I don't recall Jerry Rice ever diving for a ball, yet he's widely considered to be the best ever.

I didnt get to see him play all that much since he was a 9er, but i am sure if we looked we could find more than 1. Jerry Rice also Owns and Broke like every receiving record there was. NO one was on his level at all. If DT was blowing out the other WR like Jerry Rice did then no one would question the lack of diving. He however, is not doing that. He is being outproduced by other WRs each year. He is still amongst the top 5-10 no doubt, but he is not blowing them out like Jerry Rice was either.

BroncoJoe
06-27-2016, 04:45 PM
Only three people - IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL - have accomplished what DT has done over the past three years.

I mean, I think you're just arguing to argue at this point. Or, you're just too stubborn to admit you are wrong. Dreadfully wrong.


Thomas joined Marvin Harrison and Jerry Rice as the only receivers in NFL history to have four consecutive seasons with at least 90 receptions and 1,300 yards. He also surpassed Broncos Ring of Fame receiver Rod Smith for the most 100-yard receiving games in Broncos’ history with his 32nd such performance Sunday against San Diego.

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/01/04/demaryius-thomas-among-broncos-setting-franchise-records/

slim
06-27-2016, 05:01 PM
Only three people - IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL - have accomplished what DT has done over the past three years.

I mean, I think you're just arguing to argue at this point. Or, you're just too stubborn to admit you are wrong. Dreadfully wrong.



http://www.denverpost.com/2016/01/04/demaryius-thomas-among-broncos-setting-franchise-records/

It's interesting that two of the three had #18 throwing them the ball.

underrated29
06-27-2016, 05:25 PM
Only three people - IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL - have accomplished what DT has done over the past three years.

I mean, I think you're just arguing to argue at this point. Or, you're just too stubborn to admit you are wrong. Dreadfully wrong.


http://www.denverpost.com/2016/01/04/demaryius-thomas-among-broncos-setting-franchise-records/




There is nothing wrong about DT not being Elite. Nor with him not diving for catches.

Would you trade him for ODB, Antonio brown, Dez, Julio, Deandre hopkins? (yes)
Would you trade him for AJ, Jordy, watkins, cooper, Evans, benjamin? (no)

Next time DT almost makes the catch but doesnt because he didnt dive think about the Dead Wrong take.

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 07:15 PM
Elite are the best of the best.

Antonio Brown is Elite.
Calvin JOhnson was Elite.
ODB is Elite.
Julio is Elite.

Dt is below them. He is amongst the best, but he is not. Id put Dez over him, maybe Deandre Hopkins too, but he has to prove more.

I know he's considered elite.

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 07:17 PM
There is nothing wrong about DT not being Elite. Nor with him not diving for catches.

Would you trade him for ODB, Antonio brown, Dez, Julio, Deandre hopkins? (yes)
Would you trade him for AJ, Jordy, watkins, cooper, Evans, benjamin? (no)

Next time DT almost makes the catch but doesnt because he didnt dive think about the Dead Wrong take.

No I would not trade him and yes, you are dead wrong about him.

Slick
06-27-2016, 07:22 PM
No, youre just playing stupid ass.
I said nothing about catching a pass 8 yards, going deep, drops or any of the other bullshit You Made Up. You made it all up, its all right there in your quote.


And no, you cannot even point out one single time he has diven? Dove? Dived? (slick, help) for a ball.


Once again we are not talking about High Pointing a ball. He is good at that. No one has ever complained about that. In fact it is completely irrelevant to my post and the topic.


So maybe, just maybe, you can enlighten us all. Find one play, tell us a story about one play- especially since "he does it all the time" that DT has EVER made a diving catch or diving catch/drop....NOT a jump up for a ball. A DIVE.

TEBOW
ORTON
MANNING
BROCK

You dont think those qbs throw balls that wr have to dive for? Remember the colts game, the pats game or the bengals game or the steelers game where DT was just a tad tad tad overthrown down the sidelines. Had he ever tried to dive he would have made the catch or at least touched the ball. Dude wont. he is soft.

Dived.

Mike
06-27-2016, 09:11 PM
I mean, that video shows how much punishment the kid takes, and how if you throw to a spot, he'll get it. One way or another, he'll go get it.

Except when it hits him in the hands....

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 09:34 PM
Except when it hits him in the hands....

Mike, he had seven freaking drops out over 150 plus targets.

Poet
06-27-2016, 09:37 PM
Mike, he had seven freaking drops out over 150 plus targets.

Fans think that anything that is remotely catchable should be a drop if it is not completed. Holding those other stars (many of which have had less great or elite years than DT) I think they would be upset, too.

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 10:50 PM
No, im not talking about jumping up. Im talking about diving for a ball. How many times deep down the sidelines has he just missed a catch off his fingers because he did not dive? The elite ones dive for it. The elite ones get it and make the catch. I have no crusade against DT, but I alsot am not going to suck him off and say he is the best WR either. He is not elite. Those little extra plays, like diving for ball, for instance, are what separate him from being Elite and just really good.





He is not Elite. And not diving is one of the reasons why.

I will accept that play. For a guy who "DOES IT ALL THE TIME" a little 2 yard falling down play sure seems weak. But he did actually dive. First ive sever seen. But it is acceptable. Once again, for an Elite WR that does this on the regular youd think someone would have a more then 1- 2 yard td route.


So where are we just for curiosity? 100+ catches 4 years in a row and 1 diving catch, from Tebow. So 400+ catches and 1 of them is a play where he actually dove. Screams like he does it all the time to me. Elite fa sho!

Good freaking grief. Jerry Rice didn't lay out for passes I guess he wasn't elite either. :rolleyes:

Poet
06-27-2016, 10:53 PM
Randy Moss didn't layout for passes, but Steve Largent did...Largent is superior to Moss I guess.

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 11:16 PM
Randy Moss didn't layout for passes, but Steve Largent did...Largent is superior to Moss I guess.

Hey, Barry Sanders never leaped over pile at the goal line to score touchdown, so guess he wasn't elite either.

Poet
06-27-2016, 11:19 PM
Hey Barry Sanders never leaped over pile at the goal line to score touchdown, so guess he wasn't elite either.

I don't recall Brown doing so sans one or two times, tops. He might not be elite.

TXBRONC
06-27-2016, 11:26 PM
I don't recall Brown doing so sans one or two times, tops. He might not be elite.

I watched an interview with Sanders and he said henever leaped at the goal line during his career. In college I know in college he because I've seen a highlight of him do so. As far as Brown is concerned, he was good but not elite.

Poet
06-27-2016, 11:29 PM
I watched an interview with Sanders and he said henever leaped at the goal line during his career. In college I know in college he because I've seen a highlight of him do so. As far as Brown is concerned, he was good but not elite.

Dorsey Levens was a boss at jumping over the goal line though #FirstballotHoFer #GOAT

Northman
06-27-2016, 11:33 PM
All i know is none of you are as Elite as me.

dogfish
06-28-2016, 12:10 AM
Dived.

thanks, babypops. . .


also, she's beautiful. . . looks like her mom, thank god!

dogfish
06-28-2016, 12:11 AM
All i know is none of you are as Elite as me.

you sorry! we ain't look at nothin' you do. . .

Northman
06-28-2016, 12:42 AM
you sorry! we ain't look at nothin' you do. . .

Liar

MOtorboat
06-28-2016, 12:51 AM
Randy Moss didn't layout for passes, but Steve Largent did...Largent is superior to Moss I guess.

The argument is so stupid.

Poet
06-28-2016, 02:07 AM
DT is my third favorite current Bronco.

underrated29
06-28-2016, 03:03 AM
Good freaking grief. Jerry Rice didn't lay out for passes I guess he wasn't elite either. :rolleyes:


Randy Moss didn't layout for passes, but Steve Largent did...Largent is superior to Moss I guess.


You act as If DT was the undisputed league leading WR. He never has been. However both HOF were. If you are hands down best in the league you don't have to dive for passes.

DT is not hands dOwn best in league
DT is not elite
Kyle orton is as good as Brady cuz he threw a 60 yard touchdown #elite #bflogic

Poet
06-28-2016, 03:19 AM
You act as If DT was the undisputed league leading WR. He never has been. However both HOF were. If you are hands down best in the league you don't have to dive for passes.

DT is not hands dOwn best in league
DT is not elite
Kyle orton is as good as Brady cuz he threw a 60 yard touchdown #elite #bflogic

Hold on, a second ago you said he wasn't elite because he didn't dive for passes. So you can be elite and not dive for passes? But only if you're the best WR in the game? Yeah...that doesn't make any sense.

Here is Dez Bryant. http://www.nfl.com/player/dezbryant/497278/careerstats DT has been more consistent than Dez, and DT's best season crushes Dez's best season.

Here's Odell Beckham Jr.'s career http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/16733/odell-beckham-jr He's off to a great start, but DT's best two seasons trump his.

Here's AJ Green's career http://www.nfl.com/player/a.j.green/2495450/careerstats Green is very consistent, but his best years don't add up to DT's, and DT's been more productive overall.

These are all guys who have been named 'better than DT' in recent months. Those don't really add up. So who is left?

Hopkins? http://www.nfl.com/player/deandrehopkins/2540165/careerstats He's had two notable years: the first of which falls below DT's average big time year, and his second big year, the one that everyone raved about, is not as good as DT's best year. FWIW, this past year, DT's down year, still trumps Hopkin's second best season. If you want to argue that Hopkins is improving and still very young, then that cuts both ways because 1. DT is still young and 2. It seems absurd to take a player who is demonstratively less talented and less productive than the other.

Antonio Brown? Sure. He's clearly the best WR in the game. Yet he doesn't lay out for passes now, and while he was becoming the best, he didn't either. Which is another hole in your absurd argument. If you follow your own logic, you'll find that you HAVE to lay out for balls to be elite, which Brown never did, and you can't become the best without being elite.

Who else is on the list? Julio? http://www.nfl.com/player/juliojones/2495454/careerstats

He's incredible...when he's on the field...But if we're going to crucify DT for only having six scores this year, then the fact that Jones has only ever broken double digit TD's ONCE in his career better be a huge issue.

Whose left? Brandon Marshall? Sure. We can talk about how DT is a better blocker than the aforementioned WR's sans Marshall and maybe Dez Bryant. We can talk about how he's the most consistent WR in the game right now. We can talk about how he's the most well rounded WR on that list sans maybe Green. So DT is quite clearly top five. That makes him elite by common NFL definition. And even if he doesn't lay out for the ball, that prong of your argument is dead in the water.

In regards to being owned by the Patriots, you mean like most star players on most teams across the league? The main Belichickian mantra on defense is to take away the other team's best weapon. So, that also means that Marvin Harrison, Chad Johnson, Hines Ward, and all the other top AFC WR's from years ago weren't elite either? Right? No. That's absurd, makes no sense, and I'm mad I'm even responding to it.

I'm mad at you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

Also, the Kyle Orton example doesn't work. At all. It's antithetical to what you're trying to argue.

underrated29
06-28-2016, 03:46 AM
Hold on, a second ago you said he wasn't elite because he didn't dive for passes. So you can be elite and not dive for passes? But only if you're the best WR in the game? Yeah...that doesn't make any sense.

Here is Dez Bryant. http://www.nfl.com/player/dezbryant/497278/careerstats DT has been more consistent than Dez, and DT's best season crushes Dez's best season.

Here's Odell Beckham Jr.'s career http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/16733/odell-beckham-jr He's off to a great start, but DT's best two seasons trump his.

Here's AJ Green's career http://www.nfl.com/player/a.j.green/2495450/careerstats Green is very consistent, but his best years don't add up to DT's, and DT's been more productive overall.

These are all guys who have been named 'better than DT' in recent months. Those don't really add up. So who is left?

Hopkins? http://www.nfl.com/player/deandrehopkins/2540165/careerstats He's had two notable years: the first of which falls below DT's average big time year, and his second big year, the one that everyone raved about, is not as good as DT's best year. FWIW, this past year, DT's down year, still trumps Hopkin's second best season. If you want to argue that Hopkins is improving and still very young, then that cuts both ways because 1. DT is still young and 2. It seems absurd to take a player who is demonstratively less talented and less productive than the other.

Antonio Brown? Sure. He's clearly the best WR in the game. Yet he doesn't lay out for passes now, and while he was becoming the best, he didn't either. Which is another hole in your absurd argument. If you follow your own logic, you'll find that you HAVE to lay out for balls to be elite, which Brown never did, and you can't become the best without being elite.

Who else is on the list? Julio? http://www.nfl.com/player/juliojones/2495454/careerstats

He's incredible...when he's on the field...But if we're going to crucify DT for only having six scores this year, then the fact that Jones has only ever broken double digit TD's ONCE in his career better be a huge issue.

Whose left? Brandon Marshall? Sure. We can talk about how DT is a better blocker than the aforementioned WR's sans Marshall and maybe Dez Bryant. We can talk about how he's the most consistent WR in the game right now. We can talk about how he's the most well rounded WR on that list sans maybe Green. So DT is quite clearly top five. That makes him elite by common NFL definition. And even if he doesn't lay out for the ball, that prong of your argument is dead in the water.

In regards to being owned by the Patriots, you mean like most star players on most teams across the league? The main Belichickian mantra on defense is to take away the other team's best weapon. So, that also means that Marvin Harrison, Chad Johnson, Hines Ward, and all the other top AFC WR's from years ago weren't elite either? Right? No. That's absurd, makes no sense, and I'm mad I'm even responding to it.

I'm mad at you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

Also, the Kyle Orton example doesn't work. At all. It's antithetical to what you're trying to argue.


It makes pretty good sense. DT is not the best wr in the game. Why? He is not perfect. Among the imperfections are his lack of diving for passes. Pretty obvious.

I appreciate your post, but I've never named green above DT. And while your research is nice, none of those guys had 18 in a 3 year record breaking extravaganza throwing the passes. Who was throwing to DT before Peyton? Ko and TT......they must be factored in.
Who said brown doesn't lay out for passes?
The pats did not make DT and his 11 targets only come down with 1 or was it 2 in the game??? If belicheck is that good that he can make the open we drop balls left and right, make him lazy on blocks, then the pats should win every game ever.......or DT is soft.

Once again you cannot compare watermelons to cherries. It makes no sense which is why I posted the KO is as good as Brady line. Because obviously if Marvin Harrison didn't finish the game against the pats with 209 yards and 3 TDs then he is not elite either. It's not a valid comparison.

Be mad, very mad. DT does not dive and only has 1 singular time. DT is not the best wr in the game. Even Peyton's record setting year I don't believe he was. For a guy who makes as much money as he does he is soft. I think kam got in his head and not sure if he'll get back in the saddle again.

TXBRONC
06-28-2016, 07:33 AM
All i know is none of you are as Elite as me.

#legendinyourownmind :D

TXBRONC
06-28-2016, 07:36 AM
You act as If DT was the undisputed league leading WR. He never has been. However both HOF were. If you are hands down best in the league you don't have to dive for passes.

DT is not hands dOwn best in league
DT is not elite
Kyle orton is as good as Brady cuz he threw a 60 yard touchdown #elite #bflogic

No, I've said he's considered one of the best in League. I have yet to say he's arguably the best in the League.

#it'syouropinionnottheNFL'sopinion

Ravage!!!
06-28-2016, 09:49 AM
Randy Moss didn't layout for passes, but Steve Largent did...Largent is superior to Moss I guess.

In heart? Absolutely.

I mean, you have to admit that Largent had more heart than Moss, and certainly more "fight"...right? Does that take away from Moss' ability and skills? No... just as it's not an insult to DT to admit that Sander's has more heart and fight.

Great example, thank you for bringing it to the table.

Valar Morghulis
06-28-2016, 11:46 AM
I think kam got in his head and not sure if he'll get back in the saddle again.

I really think there is something to this.

I am hopeful he will get over it, but I absolutely think it is feasible as a potential cause in his (perceived) lack of heart.

Poet
06-28-2016, 12:02 PM
In heart? Absolutely.

I mean, you have to admit that Largent had more heart than Moss, and certainly more "fight"...right? Does that take away from Moss' ability and skills? No... just as it's not an insult to DT to admit that Sander's has more heart and fight.

Great example, thank you for bringing it to the table.

The thing about it is that when I watched Sanders first come up in Pittsburgh he was labeled as skinny, soft, and not mentally tough. Over time he played some ball and those fans came to like him. When DT came up he was called Mr. Glass because of his early injuries, but when he got on the field fans started to fall in love with him. Then he became the tough ******* running over the middle of the field getting shots put on him.

He didn't lose heart. You don't lose heart. You have it or you don't. He lost focus. Heart is intrinsic. I'm a stubborn and arrogant ***** -also intrinsic- but I work to squash it down; those characteristics aren't lost, though. Did Largeant have more heart than Moss? I'd say so. But when Moss went to NE he tore it up because he regained focus. When he got styled on in the draft and fell down the board, he gained focus and ****** the league.

Now is it insulting to say that Sanders has more heart than DT? Not necessarily, but right now it's being used as a slight to his name.

Northman
06-28-2016, 12:22 PM
but right now it's being used as a slight to his name.

To be fair some have also slighted Sanders for not being worth $12 mil. While i dont think Denver should pay two receivers top money the argument (or debate) was that some feel that Sanders has more heart/fire/motivation/focus, whatever you want to call it than DT. Unfortunately i think some fans take guys like Largent, McCaffery, Sanders, etc for granted because they are not naturally athletic but will work the hardest to make plays when you need them. While guys like Moss, Ocho, Owens, etc have all the talent in the world and will be HOF'rs because of that talent they also tend to be the guys who wont normally lay out for a play, have poor attitudes, take plays off and on and on. People can pimp DT all day long but the guy does have some problems that i would like to see him improve upon. But it shouldnt be a problem with you, MO, or whoever else that people seem to like the kind of player that Sanders is more than DT at this moment. Its like people are not allowed to criticize a player on the Broncos without people getting overly dramatic and calling it hate. I think UR is a bit overboard with his perception but most of the people in this thread have not been taking it that far when discussing both players.

Poet
06-28-2016, 12:36 PM
To be fair some have also slighted Sanders for not being worth $12 mil. While i dont think Denver should pay two receivers top money the argument (or debate) was that some feel that Sanders has more heart/fire/motivation/focus, whatever you want to call it than DT. Unfortunately i think some fans take guys like Largent, McCaffery, Sanders, etc for granted because they are not naturally athletic but will work the hardest to make plays when you need them. While guys like Moss, Ocho, Owens, etc have all the talent in the world and will be HOF'rs because of that talent they also tend to be the guys who wont normally lay out for a play, have poor attitudes, take plays off and on and on. People can pimp DT all day long but the guy does have some problems that i would like to see him improve upon. But it shouldnt be a problem with you, MO, or whoever else that people seem to like the kind of player that Sanders is more than DT at this moment. Its like people are not allowed to criticize a player on the Broncos without people getting overly dramatic and calling it hate. I think UR is a bit overboard with his perception but most of the people in this thread have not been taking it that far when discussing both players.

I'm not in disagreement with any of this. I'm really not in disagreement with how good Sanders is; I think he's worth 12 million a year, factoring in the going price for the first tier of WR's being so high and the inflation of contracts that FA's tend to get. In regards to the old stars of WR's, it seems to come and go. Now corners are the mouthy douches in the league and WR's are...normal people. The DT 'hate' int his thread isn't too strong, but during the season that guy got slaughtered on given weeks. Then you have the UR comments, which...man...

MAN!

Ravage!!!
06-28-2016, 12:41 PM
The thing about it is that when I watched Sanders first come up in Pittsburgh he was labeled as skinny, soft, and not mentally tough. Over time he played some ball and those fans came to like him. When DT came up he was called Mr. Glass because of his early injuries, but when he got on the field fans started to fall in love with him. Then he became the tough ******* running over the middle of the field getting shots put on him.

He didn't lose heart. You don't lose heart. You have it or you don't. He lost focus. Heart is intrinsic. I'm a stubborn and arrogant ***** -also intrinsic- but I work to squash it down; those characteristics aren't lost, though. Did Largeant have more heart than Moss? I'd say so. But when Moss went to NE he tore it up because he regained focus. When he got styled on in the draft and fell down the board, he gained focus and ****** the league.

Now is it insulting to say that Sanders has more heart than DT? Not necessarily, but right now it's being used as a slight to his name.

Hmmm... we are really splitting hairs here.

But I think you ABSOLUTELY can lose heart. You can lose focus, and you can lose motivation, and with that, you lose heart. Moss didn't just lose "focus" when playing for other teams, he lost heart. He lost his motivation and his desire. Some guys just have more "fight" after the ball than others do. Some have the internal FIGHT in them. Largent absolutely had that 'fight' in him at all times, and despite playing for a losing team, he never lost that heart. Moss 100% DID, which is why fans will acknowledge his natural skills, but will ALWAYS question his insides.

Considering the size difference between Sanders and Thomas, I would say that has a lot to do with it.

I would say it's used to slight DT's PLAY more than his name. No one is denying his skills, but we have to be realistic in acknowledging the fact that DT doesn't have the 'fight' for the ball that Sanders seems to have. Perhaps we see Sanders and just being more "scrappy." Don't know. Maybe Thomas never really had to "fight" for the ball his life considering his natural skills, size, and speed. His demeanor is just more "laid back" internally.

Doesn't mean we see DT as being 'weak' or bad.

Poet
06-28-2016, 12:46 PM
Hmmm... we are really splitting hairs here.

But I think you ABSOLUTELY can lose heart. You can lose focus, and you can lose motivation, and with that, you lose heart. Moss didn't just lose "focus" when playing for other teams, he lost heart. He lost his motivation and his desire. Some guys just have more "fight" after the ball than others do. Some have the internal FIGHT in them. Largent absolutely had that 'fight' in him at all times, and despite playing for a losing team, he never lost that heart. Moss 100% DID, which is why fans will acknowledge his natural skills, but will ALWAYS question his insides.

Considering the size difference between Sanders and Thomas, I would say that has a lot to do with it.

I would say it's used to slight DT's PLAY more than his name. No one is denying his skills, but we have to be realistic in acknowledging the fact that DT doesn't have the 'fight' for the ball that Sanders seems to have. Perhaps we see Sanders and just being more "scrappy." Don't know. Maybe Thomas never really had to "fight" for the ball his life considering his natural skills, size, and speed. His demeanor is just more "laid back" internally.

Doesn't mean we see DT as being 'weak' or bad.

I honestly don't think we're splitting hairs. I don't think Moss ever had heart so much as he had a huge ego he had to satisfy from time to time. I don't begrudge you your take, though.

underrated29
06-28-2016, 01:11 PM
What?

My comments that DT is not elite is really that over the top? He is not elite. He could be, but he is not. He does not dive for the ball. He does not block consistently. He drops balls. The last couple games and playoffs he had 95 or 99 targets and only came up with 44 of them, I just read. Elite players are better than that. Cry all you guys want. The man is soft.
And nothing ive said is outlandish.

TXBRONC
06-28-2016, 02:38 PM
What?

My comments that DT is not elite is really that over the top? He is not elite. He could be, but he is not. He does not dive for the ball. He does not block consistently. He drops balls. The last couple games and playoffs he had 95 or 99 targets and only came up with 44 of them, I just read. Elite players are better than that. Cry all you guys want. The man is soft.
And nothing ive said is outlandish.

I don't think you opinion is over the top, but I think you're wrong and reasonably sure the NFL doesn't agree with you either. Btw who died and left you in charge of what is and and is not elite? Using your lining of thinking Manning was never an elite quarterback.

Joel
06-28-2016, 02:40 PM
I really think there is something to this.

I am hopeful he will get over it, but I absolutely think it is feasible as a potential cause in his (perceived) lack of heart.
Yeah: Kam got in DTs head so badly DT set a SB receptions record despite the rest of the Broncos offense imploding nonstop for 3 solid hours.

Demaryius Thomas is the SOLE reason we weren't the first team EVER shutout in a SB.

If that's "Kam getting in his head" I wish he'd get back in there, fast.

As for the argument that
DT is not the best wr in the game. Why? He is not perfect. Among the imperfections are his lack of diving for passes.

I guess the one and ONLY best in the game "retired" ~1975 years ago. I don't believe anyone's calling DT the NFLs best WR though, only ONE of its ELITE WRs. His record speaks for itself, or should; name three non-elite WRs who'd consider a 100-catch season a "down year."

As to whether Largent was better than Moss: Dunno; Largent NEVER had ANYTHING like the '07 Pats or late '90s Vikings #1 offenses, yet still managed to make the Hall on the first ballot. Was Walter Payton better than Emmitt Smith?

underrated29
06-28-2016, 02:46 PM
I don't think you opinion is over the top, but I think you're wrong and reasonably sure the NFL doesn't agree with either. Btw who died and left you in charge of what is and and is not elite? Using your lining of thinking Manning was never an elite quarterback.




Well its hard to say since no one here can reasonably agree what Elite is. To me elite is the best of the best. While DT is amongst the best wideouts in the league he is not the best of the best. I think Brown, ODB, Dez, and probably Julio (this is close for me) are all better WR than DT. Deandre Hopkins could be but he is too young yet. IF so, that right there puts DT outside of the top 5. Josh Gordon is ahead of him but he is also a moron so I did not ever include him. At what point do you draw the line for the best of the best? Top 5. Top 10?

How by anything have I said can you conclude that manning is not Elite? He only owns like every record there is. He was MVP like 6 times and had the best season a QB has ever had (hence the best of the best).

TXBRONC
06-28-2016, 03:02 PM
Well its hard to say since no one here can reasonably agree what Elite is. To me elite is the best of the best. While DT is amongst the best wideouts in the league he is not the best of the best. I think Brown, ODB, Dez, and probably Julio (this is close for me) are all better WR than DT. Deandre Hopkins could be but he is too young yet. IF so, that right there puts DT outside of the top 5. Josh Gordon is ahead of him but he is also a moron so I did not ever include him. At what point do you draw the line for the best of the best? Top 5. Top 10?

How by anything have I said can you conclude that manning is not Elite? He only owns like every record there is. He was MVP like 6 times and had the best season a QB has ever had (hence the best of the best).

You have beating the drum about how poorly Thomas preformed in this set of playoffs as a way saying he not elite by that measure Manning should be considered elite. Yep, Manning had statistically the best season any quarterback has ever had. Thomas just did something that only two other receivers in history of game have done. You can't have it both ways Under.

Timmy!
06-28-2016, 03:04 PM
Josh Gordon? Ok, this thread is officially a dumpster fire.

Ravage!!!
06-28-2016, 03:10 PM
Well its hard to say since no one here can reasonably agree what Elite is. To me elite is the best of the best. While DT is amongst the best wideouts in the league he is not the best of the best. I think Brown, ODB, Dez, and probably Julio (this is close for me) are all better WR than DT. Deandre Hopkins could be but he is too young yet. IF so, that right there puts DT outside of the top 5. Josh Gordon is ahead of him but he is also a moron so I did not ever include him. At what point do you draw the line for the best of the best? Top 5. Top 10?

How by anything have I said can you conclude that manning is not Elite? He only owns like every record there is. He was MVP like 6 times and had the best season a QB has ever had (hence the best of the best).

well.. you are showing your weak hand if you are putting Julio "on the line" when already behind ODB and Dez.

underrated29
06-28-2016, 03:13 PM
You have beating the drum about how poorly Thomas preformed in this set of playoffs as a way saying he not elite by that measure Manning should be considered elite. Yep, Manning had statistically the best season any quarterback has ever had. Thomas just did something that only two other receivers in history of game have done. You can't have it both ways Under.


Are you sure that was me? Ive only brought up the playoffs twice. once in each post. One just a bit ago where I mentioned I read that DTs last few games he had 90 something targets and only hauled in 44 of them. The other time I mentioned playoffs (was actually both pats games but fine) was DTs drop rate/intimidation. Manning is Elite. Hes too old and busted now but when he was in his prime he was unbeatable.

dogfish
06-28-2016, 03:28 PM
okay, this is just getting comical. . . we need to find out if DT gave blood at some point during the season. . .

Ravage!!!
06-28-2016, 03:30 PM
okay, this is just getting comical. . . we need to find out if DT gave blood at some point during the season. . .

he tried, but he didn't have enough heart to pump the blood through the tubing! :fight: :D

Valar Morghulis
06-28-2016, 03:31 PM
Yeah: Kam got in DTs head so badly DT set a SB receptions record despite the rest of the Broncos offense imploding nonstop for 3 solid hours. Demaryius Thomas is the SOLE reason we weren't the first team EVER shutout in a SB. If that's "Kam getting in his head" I wish he'd get back in there, fast.

This is so stupid it actually annoyed me.

It is called post not pre or during traumatic stress disorder for a reason.

Poet
06-28-2016, 06:00 PM
This is so stupid it actually annoyed me.

It is called post not pre or during traumatic stress disorder for a reason.

It's more logical than 'he doesn't dive so he's not elite'.

Slick
06-28-2016, 06:21 PM
He's had some bad games but he's still a stud WR. Denver is lucky to have DT.

MOtorboat
06-28-2016, 06:22 PM
It's more logical than 'he doesn't dive so he's not elite'.

But if he was elite, he wouldn't have to dive...

Poet
06-28-2016, 06:25 PM
But if he was elite, he wouldn't have to dive...

It is literally the worst argument ever. In defense of Joel, at least he ties the concepts of Kam, DT's head, and trauma together.

underrated29
06-28-2016, 06:56 PM
It's more logical than 'he doesn't dive so he's not elite'.
But he is not elite. Maybe if he tried it once in a while he would be. Or maybe blocked or maybe didn't drop so many balls. You know, the things that an elite wr does.


But if he was elite, he wouldn't have to dive...
And he does it all the time right MO? All the time...

MOtorboat
06-28-2016, 06:58 PM
It is literally the worst argument ever. In defense of Joel, at least he ties the concepts of Kam, DT's head, and trauma together.

It's pretty bad. Worst ever? I don't know. It didn't dive, so I don't think it can be the worst ever.