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View Full Version : Random thoughts from game 1 at cincy - with screen shots



Tned
09-19-2009, 03:05 PM
Ok, I finally got around to watching the game again, and here are some random thoughts. These are from the first half. Will post more (and more pics) from the second half soon.

Random thoughts watching the game again:

First series offense.

Marshall's drop, on the screen throw. Bad drop, but it likely would have resulted in a loss if he had caught it, as it didn't fool anyone.

On the 3rd down incompletion to Stokely. There should have been a PI or illegal contact penalty. That aside, Orton seemed to lock on to Stokely.

Stokely and Royal started in the slot, and Royal went to the sideline. His defender broke off and covered Stokely (double covered when Orton threw

to him), either because he saw Orton locked on to Stokely, or he was dropping off to let a safety cover Royal.

Either way, Royal was wide open down the sideline while Stokely was double covered when thrown to (technically, well covered by one defender and another defender heading towards him).

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/1stSeriesStokely.JPG

Buckhalter ran very well -- looked explosive.

First series defense.

Initially, very good run defense, then they were hit with several first downs (passing and rushing) in a row. After Cincy lost a first down on a

holding penalty, the defense seemed to regroup and forced a punt.

Second series offense

Moreno looks tentative, too much east/west running, not enough north/south.

Orton has ball tipped at line of scrimmage in failure to convert 3rd down. This might have been a good thing, as Orton again attempted to throw to a double covered Stokely on 3rd down. As you can see in the pic, Royal was wide open past the first down mark, and another receiver was running up the sideline wide open. I chose the screen shot I did (with the ball still well away from Stokely), because I believe that if it wasn't tipped, it would have reached Stokely around that time, thereby giving the best feel for the defenders in relation to Stokely.

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/2ndSeries_stokley.JPG

Second series defense

Dumervile seems to be well adapted to LB both in the run stopping and pass rushing game.

Smith running as the nickel back.

Bengals offensive line is huge.

But for the Bengals fake punt/run for first down, the defense would have completely shut the Bengals down in the second series.

Third series offense

Except for short pass to Marshall, nothing good here.

Orton sacked on first down, and sacked on third down (line let three rushers get to Orton, while still being called for illegal chop block)

Third series defense

Ocho Cinco got the best of Champ on a sideline throw for a 34 yard gain.

Andre Davis splits the RG/RT and powers past the RT for a sack. Nice effort.

Defense seems to make a couple good plays in a row, then gives up a big play or two.

Nice pass breakup by Goodman, breaking up a big gain, possibly TD -- forces punt.

Fourth series offense

Screen pass to Gaffney, one yard gain. Preseason and this game shows that McDaniels loves the screen pass.

Orton underthrows Marshall, allowing the defender a chance to catch up and wrap arms around Marsahll (who had a couple steps on defender), but Marshall should have caught the ball that went between his hands. The underthrow appeared to be more an accuracy than arm strength thing, as the ball had plenty of zip and wasn't a rainbow.

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/4thseriesmarshall.JPG

Deflection at LOS, but ball still goes to intended receiver Gaffney, who had no running room - punt.

Fourth defensive series

Davis makes another nice play on a 2nd down run stop.

After nice first and 2nd down stops, defense allows a 15 yard pickup on a screen pass.

Another nice play by Davis. When Benson swings wide and Bailey can't catch him and someone misses a tackle, Davis comes all the way across the field to stop Benson for minimal gain.

Davis again, turning into the defensive star of the first half, sniffs out a screen pass and tackles RB for a six yard loss.

Again, a couple good play, and then give up big play. D gives up a 3rd and long completion.

Fifth Offensive series

Orton's tendency to throw to the double covered receiver (and appear to lock on to receivers, often 'causing' the double team) continues.

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/5thseriesroyal.JPG
http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/5thseriesroyal_2.JPG
http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/5thseriesroyal_3.JPG

Final offensive series of first half.

Buckhalter clearly the best runner of the half. Some nice runs and screen passes in the half and final series.

Without actually counting them, it seems most of the pass completions have been on RB or WR screens.

Nice pickup to Gaffney to put them in FG range.

Scheffler should have picked up a nice gain, but had the ball stripped -- ruled incomplete.

shank
09-19-2009, 03:33 PM
a lot of your screens are taken when the ball is but a few feet from the intended receiver... meaning the defense already had the time that it took orton to make the recognition, wind up, throw, and the flight of the ball to react. i'm not saying the receiver he chose was open, i'm saying that by the time your screen was taken, of course the 'other' receiver would be 'open.'

the first and last plays, i don't think that he necessarily had a better option open. the more important screen cap would be how open was the other guy right before the throw was even made...

on the second play (with royal open) it was clearly a terrible decision.

Reidman
09-19-2009, 03:34 PM
Maybe Orton doesn't know how to read defenses...:coffee:

Tned
09-19-2009, 03:52 PM
a lot of your screens are taken when the ball is but a few feet from the intended receiver... meaning the defense already had the time that it took orton to make the recognition, wind up, throw, and the flight of the ball to react. i'm not saying the receiver he chose was open, i'm saying that by the time your screen was taken, of course the 'other' receiver would be 'open.'

the first and last plays, i don't think that he necessarily had a better option open. the more important screen cap would be how open was the other guy right before the throw was even made...

on the second play (with royal open) it was clearly a terrible decision.

In the first one, there is no high shot that shows when the defender breaks off Royal, but based on the way the defenders acts, it appears that Orton was locked on to Stokely the whole time and as soon as the defender turns his head towards the QB, he breaks for Stokely and off of Royal (it's impossible to tell if the ball had been released or not).

On the last one, Royal was open, at the time it was released, but unfortunately, it shows the lack of zip on Orton's ball, that on a 13 yard pass, that while in the air, not only did the defender behind royal managed to get into the play, and one just visible on the left side of the screen shot was able to come in and get a hand on the ball.

So, your point about point of release is a good one and shows it was a good decision to throw to Royal, but that Orton didn't have enough arm strength (or didn't throw it hard enough) to comlete a 13 yard pass.

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/5thseriesroyal_4.JPG

shank
09-19-2009, 03:54 PM
from that picture, it looks like a pump fake to royal, followed by a throw to marshall on the out would have been a successful play (if he could get the deep out there in time... ?)

Tned
09-19-2009, 04:00 PM
from that picture, it looks like a pump fake to royal, followed by a throw to marshall on the out would have been a successful play (if he could get the deep out there in time... ?)

Yes, but after looking at it again to get the different angle (after your comment to the first series of pics), there is also no reason it wasn't completed to Royal. It was a good defensive play by the LB, but on the other hand Orton should have been able to complete that 13 yard pass before he got a hand on it.

One thing that appears obvious, is that Orton doesn't move his head off the primary target. I say his 'head', because we can't see his eyes. His eyes could be darting all over that quadrant of the field, but the direction of his helmet on nearly every pass is locked on the receiver he ultimately throws to.

shank
09-19-2009, 04:02 PM
Yes, but after looking at it again to get the different angle (after your comment to the first series of pics), there is also no reason it wasn't completed to Royal. It was a good defensive play by the LB, but on the other hand Orton should have been able to complete that 13 yard pass before he got a hand on it.

One thing that appears obvious, is that Orton doesn't move his head off the primary target. I say his 'head', because we can't see his eyes. His eyes could be darting all over that quadrant of the field, but the direction of his helmet on nearly every pass is locked on the receiver he ultimately throws to.

that's one of the things i expect to see him improve with as he gets more games under his belt.

Tned
09-19-2009, 04:13 PM
that's one of the things i expect to see him improve with as he gets more games under his belt.

I hope so, defenders are too good in this league for a QB to lock on to a receiver like that. Some RBs, like LT, wear colored visors so the defenders can't even see what hole they are looking at, when a QB locks on to a receiver, the defender is much more likely to jump a route.

NameUsedBefore
09-19-2009, 04:14 PM
Back, and to the left.

Tned
09-19-2009, 04:27 PM
Back, and to the left.

:confused:

honz
09-19-2009, 04:31 PM
Front, and to the right.

Tned
09-19-2009, 05:06 PM
==================================================
Second Half
==================================================

Davis makes a nice open field tackle on a little flare pass. Davis still one of the stars on defense, seemingly always around the ball carrier.

On first series, Broncos backed up near goal line. On third down, Orton throws to Marshall who is about 5 yards short of the first down and

covered to the point of not being able to turn up field, while Stokely (who had been bunched with Marshall) is runing wide open down the field, and

another receiver cutting int towards the numbers open and beyond the first down marker (I highlighted the first down line).

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/2ndhalf_1.JPG

A couple big sacks in the Bengals 2nd offensive series, pushing them out of FG range and forcing a punt. The preseason and week 1 has shown us

that this front seven is much more capable of getting pressure than last years front seven.

When the Broncos were backed up to their endzone, Orton made a nice throw out of the endzone to convert a third down to Graham.

Buckhalter continues to run hard. Whether it is reading holes or running harder, Buckhalter looks much better than Moreno in this game.

Completion to Marshall, who got hammered when led into a receiver. It appears that Orton throws to Marshall almost every time he is in the game,

and to Stokely on most third downs. I assume they are the primary receivers in those situations.

Even on passes that were broken up by defenders, most of Orton's throws appear to uncatchable by the defender. Meaning, even the ones where the

defender got a hand on it to break it up, it was not 'nearly' intercepted.

Just threw behind HIllis. He has done that on a few throws, where he has thrown to the wrong side of a receiver. However, considering he is

wearing a glove, coving stitches in his right index finger, his accuracy has been pretty impressive.


It might take a few weeks to know how good Cincy's offense is, but with the exception of a few plays, our defense has really shut down the Cincy offense.

Big 29 yard pickup to Scheffler. O-line giving Orton loads of time, but eventually good pocket awareness by Orton to move up. Orton threw behind Scheffler -- great play by scheffler to turn around in stride and snag ball.

First time Stokely was throw to while open, and he drops it -- would have been first down. Orton fired it in to him.

Same thing I saw in preseason. I think comments about Orton having a noodle arm are wrong, but what he has is an inconsistant arm. He seems to not always have the right 'pace' for the situation. IMO, this is better than not having the ability to throw the ball hard, as it is something that can be coached.

Smith making some tackles in the second half. He had a GREAT pass breakup on Cincy's first series of the 4th quarter. Still has a LOT to prove to justify that first round pick traded for him, but he has had a good game.

Royal takes massive hit and drops ball that would have been a first down pickup. Good throw, but can't blame Royal, as it was a vicious hit right after catching ball.

Throw low and behind Marshall, who makes a good play. Not sure if it was a poor throw, or Orton keeping it away from the defender. Again, Orton has put very few balls in places where a defender could catch them.

Moreno still doesn't look good.

McDaniels ripping into Orton when he took the sack that pushed them out of FG range. I watched three times now, and multiple times on Sunday and Monday, and still can't decide if I find fault in Orton. He only had one brief moment when throwing it away was an option, as the pocket collapsed so quick. His choice was rather than trying to step up in the pocket, to immediately throw it away.

Was it a prevent D? Why were the Bengals able to march down the field (running and passing) in that last drive, when held in check all game prior to that point?

Accouncers say that in this last drive, Denver stopped blitzing and started playing a zone defense, which Palmer is picking apart.

Really bad choice by Royal to take the ball out. He was 4 yards deep in the endzone, and would have had trouble reaching the 20, even if he didn't slip and burned 4 seconds by taking it out.

First sideline throw by Orton was nearly picked. In fact the defender did pick it, but his second foot was just out of bounds (his back heel came down out of bounds).

On the final play, I agree with those that have said that but for the great defensive play, it likely would have been complete to Marshall. Granted, for a short gain and Marshall would have come down in bounds, but I think it would have been complete.

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/2ndhalf_2.JPG

BroncoJoe
09-19-2009, 05:21 PM
Have to agree with shank. With the ball in the air, defenders have some time to react. Nearly all your screen shots show the ball as it's approaching the receiver, not when it leaves Orton's hand.

Tned
09-19-2009, 06:14 PM
Have to agree with shank. With the ball in the air, defenders have some time to react. Nearly all your screen shots show the ball as it's approaching the receiver, not when it leaves Orton's hand.

Often the broadcast doesn't play a shot that shows the receiver and QB both in the shot at time of release. This one there was a high endzone shot. The safety or LB that was back in coverage was sitting flatfooted just beyond the first down marker, and could not have turned and run with Stokely, but was in perfect position to make sure Marshall could not pick up the first down.

While we cannot see the receiver on the left at release, based on what we see later, it looks like he was completely uncovered and beyond the first down marker.


http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/2ndhalf_1_2.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/2ndhalf_1_3.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/2ndhalf_1_4.JPG

http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/2ndhalf_1.JPG

Lonestar
09-20-2009, 01:25 PM
Thanks for the film study.

I got from it while viewing, it on my blackberry that if you want to see good you will if you want to see bad you will.

I suspect the coaches, QBs will study it also with a dispassionate eye. While making decicsion based on what the actual called play was, whether routes were run correctly, reads by Recivers and QBs were correct.

Without knowing this things it is hard to know for sure what happened good or bad.

But thanks for giving us your views and time on it.

shank
09-20-2009, 01:32 PM
http://www.broncosforums.com/downloads/games/2009week1/2ndhalf_1_4.JPG



the receiver on the left (royal?) isn't open. he is cutting in towards the numbers with a linebacker between him and orton.

you're right about stokely though. he would have run past that backer either way.

Northman
09-20-2009, 01:36 PM
Orton is learning a new system and scheme. Its one game people, come on.

Tned
09-20-2009, 01:37 PM
Orton is learning a new system and scheme. Its one game people, come on.

Cone on what? He made some good plays and made some bad throws, as other players did as well.

Did you read the posts in this thread, or just assume it was a bunch of bashing? :confused:

Dean
09-20-2009, 01:37 PM
Thanks for the film study.

I got from it while viewing, it on my blackberry that if you want to see good you will if you want to see bad you will.

I suspect the coaches, QBs will study it also with a dispassionate eye. While making decicsion based on what the actual called play was, whether routes were run correctly, reads by Recivers and QBs were correct.

Without knowing this things it is hard to know for sure what happened good or bad.

But thanks for giving us your views and time on it.

If a man in the QBs field of vision is open and the choice is made to throw to one who is double covered, it's a mistake irregardless of the playcall or the accuratcy of route running. JMO but I have never heard otherwise at any coaching clinic, article, or book.

claymore
09-20-2009, 01:47 PM
Cincy's Def. is bad ass this year. Thats why We only got one luck TD.

frenchfan
09-21-2009, 02:32 AM
Hey Tned... I don't have the luck to watch the game (we often have the MNF here only - at least in my case)... So a great THANK YOU for this analysis... That was very very very interesting :salute:
:beer: