Schefter: Broncos offer to Von Miller- 6 years, $114.5 million

[VonDoom]

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/740592066623856641

[VonDoom]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 11m11 minutes ago

NFL source confirms ESPN report on Von's offer: 6yr $114.5M with 39.8M guaranteed over first 2 years Shows progress, work still to be done

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 8m8 minutes ago

Not to say it can't get done, but it will be very difficult for Denver and Von Miller to reach long-term agreement by July 15 deadline.

[MOtorboat]

$40 guaranteed doesn't sound like near enough to me.

[Davii]

I don't think those numbers will get it done.

Like Mo said, 40 million guaranteed is too low.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

It concerns me that Denver's front office felt it necessary to release this. Why are they using the media?

[Tned]

$40 guaranteed doesn't sound like near enough to me.

Yea, what did Malik get, $42 million? The total "should" be in the ball park, unless Von really does push for elite QB money, but I can't see them going for that guarantee. I would think they would be looking for more like $55-60 minimum, possibly higher.

[MOtorboat]

It concerns me that Denver's front office felt it necessary to release this. Why are they using the media?

You don't think it was Miller's agent who leaked it?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

$40 guaranteed doesn't sound like near enough to me.


I don't think those numbers will get it done.

Like Mo said, 40 million guaranteed is too low.

Agreed, North of 50 sounds right

[Davii]

It concerns me that Denver's front office felt it necessary to release this. Why are they using the media?

It's not necessarily the Broncos. In fact, I think it's more likely that Von's agent released this tidbit to make it seem as though Von is getting lowballed, which he honestly more or less is.

[Northman]

A note to the Denver Broncos, the backup kicker you guys have had for a few years now would gladly take that money. :)

[MOtorboat]

Justin Houston got $52.5 guaranteed two years ago. It will take more than that.

[Poet]

He's going to get 60 guaranteed is my guess.

[G_Money]

Justin Houston got $52.5 guaranteed two years ago. It will take more than that.

It said 39.5 guaranteed in the first two years, right? That doesn't meant that's all that he's guaranteed. Hard to get exact contract details through the Twitter rumor mill, I guess.

If that's all that was guaranteed I agree, the opening bid is too low so with 5 weeks to go we'd better find some more common ground.

[Timmy!]

It said 39.5 guaranteed in the first two years, right? That doesn't meant that's all that he's guaranteed. Hard to get exact contract details through the Twitter rumor mill, I guess.

If that's all that was guaranteed I agree, the opening bid is too low so with 5 weeks to go we'd better find some more common ground.

I was just about to say, the way that's worded implies that's not all the guaranteed money.

[VonDoom]

It said 39.5 guaranteed in the first two years, right? That doesn't meant that's all that he's guaranteed. Hard to get exact contract details through the Twitter rumor mill, I guess.

If that's all that was guaranteed I agree, the opening bid is too low so with 5 weeks to go we'd better find some more common ground.

This. Right now, it's just a report from Schefter - I don't think all the finer points are being let out. As Renck says:

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 13m13 minutes ago

#Broncos made strong offer to Von. While not knowing all details, 3rd yr being guaranteed at signing can be sticking point in these deals

... so if they guarantee a third year, that would probably put it in the $57-58 million guaranteed range.

[Davii]

I was just about to say, the way that's worded implies that's not all the guaranteed money.

I agree it could be read that way but I just don't think it would make sense not to say what the guarantee is rather than just the first two years.

[EastCoastBronco]

When the time comes for the rubber to meet the road...I hope the Fax machine is plugged in...;-)

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Let's hope it is a case of typical negotiation strategy - you have a starting figure, to see how the other side responds, and then you go back and forth from there.

[Northman]

When the time comes for the rubber to meet the road...I hope the Fax machine is plugged in...;-)

If not, the Ravens would improve quickly. lol

[VonDoom]

Klis says the Broncos have "withdrawn" their offer, since a random deadline passed last night.


The Broncos set a deadline of 10 p.m. Tuesday to reach an agreement on a long-term contract with Miller, who was the MVP of the team’s Super Bowl 50 win in February.

Absent an agreement, the Broncos said they would withdraw their multiyear contract proposal, leaving Miller to play the 2016 season on his $14.129 million "exclusive" franchise tag. However, a Broncos source said Wednesday that talks have not "broken off.''

and



The Broncos have the right under the CBA to slap the franchise tag on Miller each year for three consecutive years at $14.129 million this year, $16.955 million in 2017 and $24.4 million for 2018. That’s a three-year total of $55.48 million.

The Broncos believe they have been more than fair with Miller because their offer significantly exceeded the first, second and third-year franchise tag amounts.

http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/broncos-contract-talks-with-von-miller-snag/237274687

[VonDoom]

Bill Barnwell ‏@billbarnwell 19m19 minutes ago

Interesting: Broncos have made an offer in excess of three consecutive franchise tags ($55.6m) and Miller’s said no

[VonDoom]

If Miller chooses not to take the best deal the Broncos will do before the deadline for doing a multi-year deal, Miller has two other choices: (1) take the $14.1 million for 2016 and do it again next year; or (2) sit out all or part of the year, giving up more than $829,000 per week.

The problem for Miller is that, after July 15, staying away won’t help him get a better long-term deal from the Broncos, because they can’t give him one. At best, he could persuade the team to agree not to use the tag on him again in 2017. Also, the Broncos could pay him more than the franchise tender in 2016.

If Miller takes the tag and carries the injury risk for 2016, he can make $16.92 million in 2017 and then, in 2018, a 44-percent raise ($24.36 million) or the quarterback franchise tender, whichever is higher. That’s a three-year payout, one year at a time, of at least $55.38 million.

Maybe that’s what Miller wants — $55.38 million fully guaranteed at signing over three years. We don’t know what he wants because his camp hasn’t leaked the details of his demand.

Yet.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/06/08/for-von-miller-the-options-are-simple/

[VonDoom]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 6m6 minutes ago

Regarding Von contract talks breaking off. That is not what I have been told.There's 5 wks until deadline.No reason to draw line in sand yet

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 4m4 minutes ago

#NFL source says that talks w Von have not broken off.. Just on pause, so to speak. There are 5 weeks left. Can stall and restart

[Northman]

So, playing devil's advocate here. If Denver cant come to terms with Von on a contract do you guys think there is any slight chance that Von leaves Denver? Any chance at all?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 7m

A deadline team set expired on Von talks. Offer has not been pulled. Team reassessing next step. #Broncos

[VonDoom]

So, playing devil's advocate here. If Denver cant come to terms with Von on a contract do you guys think there is any slight chance that Von leaves Denver? Any chance at all?

I think we would certainly franchise him next year again and maybe even the year after. By then, the relationship will have gone south, and he would leave.

I don't think there's much chance of that happening, but until we lock him up for real, it's always a possibility.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think we would certainly franchise him next year again and maybe even the year after. By then, the relationship will have gone south, and he would leave.

I don't think there's much chance of that happening, but until we lock him up for real, it's always a possibility.

He'll be 30 in two years, so I don't know how much bargaining power he'll have after playing under the tag for 2 years.

[Magnificent Seven]

Broncos will find a new monster if Von Miller decides to leave.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

The Broncos made a contract offer to outside linebacker Von Miller worth $114.5 million over six years that would make Miller the highest-paid nonquarterback in overall value, a source confirmed.

But the deal is essentially a two-year deal, with $38.5 million fully guaranteed over that time. The third year is guaranteed only for injury once Miller gets to that year, meaning the Broncos could cut him after only two seasons.

A deadline on the Broncos’ recent offer to Von Miller expired, but the offer has not been pulled. The team is reassessing its next step, but a large gap must be bridged before the July 15 deadline.

Typically, these deals are measured on how much is guaranteed — specifically how much is guaranteed over the first three years at signing.

rest - plus video - http://www.denverpost.com/2016/06/08/broncos-offer-von-miller-contract-that-would-make-him-highest-paid-non-qb/

[NightTerror218]

I think a portion of yr 3 should be guarenteed. He will be atound a lot longer than 3 yrs elway. This is a guy groomed by you and now you are offering him a 2 yr guarenteed contract just like a FA rental? I know elway is start with cap. But this does not bode for future extensions well if its only a 2 yr contract basically.

[NightTerror218]

So, playing devil's advocate here. If Denver cant come to terms with Von on a contract do you guys think there is any slight chance that Von leaves Denver? Any chance at all?

After 2 years maybe.

[OrangeHoof]

The first two cap figures are viable for the Broncos. The first one might even help to pay some rookie contracts. The third one would be tough but they could offer a deal higher than the 3-yr average (all guaranteed) but with more weighted to 2017 where they at least have time to adjust to it.

[NightTerror218]

The first two cap figures are viable for the Broncos. The first one might even help to pay some rookie contracts. The third one would be tough but they could offer a deal higher than the 3-yr average (all guaranteed) but with more weighted to 2017 where they at least have time to adjust to it.

And no signing bonus either. So essentually they can walk away from von after 2 yeara. That does not sound like long term security for a player.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

The Broncos have a history of spreading the guaranteed money, so a chunk of it isn’t received until the start of the third year. For example, Aqib Talib signed a six-year, $57 million contract in 2014 with $25 million in guarantees, but his $8.5 million base salary for 2016 wasn’t guaranteed until March 11, the third day of the 2016 league year.


Last week Broncos general manager John Elway offered a similar sentiment, saying that talks were ongoing with his representatives and that he was hopeful he could work out a new contract not only for Miller, but also receiver Emmanuel Sanders and inside linebacker Brandon Marshall. Sanders is on the final year of his contract and Marshall is a restricted free agent.

“We’re still in the process, and we’re hopeful we can get something done,” Elway said of Miller. We’re in negotiations with him. “We’re working on (Sanders and Marshall), too. I’ve gone back and forth with their agents. The ideal thing would be to get all three of them done (by mid-July). That’s kind of the goal.”

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/06/08/broncos-offer-von-miller-contract-that-would-make-him-highest-paid-non-qb/

I don't know enough about all this, but is it a possibility they are holding back on Von a little right now, to have money left to get a contract done with Emmanuel and Brandon also?

[BroncoJoe]

So, playing devil's advocate here. If Denver cant come to terms with Von on a contract do you guys think there is any slight chance that Von leaves Denver? Any chance at all?

Anything is possible.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Andrew Mason Retweeted
James Palmer ‏@JamesPalmerTV 53m

League source: Von Miller turned down Broncos offer of 114.5m. Biggest non QB contract ever. Offer hasn’t been pulled. Team now reassessing

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think a portion of yr 3 should be guarenteed. He will be atound a lot longer than 3 yrs elway. This is a guy groomed by you and now you are offering him a 2 yr guarenteed contract just like a FA rental? I know elway is start with cap. But this does not bode for future extensions well if its only a 2 yr contract basically.

He'll be 30 in two years. This looks like Elway is being shrewd, IMO.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Andrew Mason Retweeted
James Palmer ‏@JamesPalmerTV 53m

League source: Von Miller turned down Broncos offer of 114.5m. Biggest non QB contract ever. Offer hasn’t been pulled. Team now reassessing

It's not even close to what Houston or Suh got in gauranteed money, which is what most players care about.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

James Palmer ‏@JamesPalmerTV 4h

According to a team source, talks between Von Miller and the Broncos are still ongoing and have not broken off.

[OrangeHoof]

And no signing bonus either. So essentually they can walk away from von after 2 yeara. That does not sound like long term security for a player.

Shoot, pay me $14 mil and $17 mil over two years and watch how secure I feel.

[tomjonesrocks]

Shoot, pay me $14 mil and $17 mil over two years and watch how secure I feel.

Are you top 3 in the world at a particular thing?

[foco]

Charlie Robinson just posted an article to yahoo saying talks have completely broken off now. The actual offer would have given Von the 13th largest guaranteed defensive contract currently in the NFL. Von's leverage is to sit out this season (which would screw us out of that 14mil on our cap this year) then sign on the market next year because he can't be tagged with an exclusive franchise tag twice. He can only be tagged with the regular franchise tag next year. The team that signs him would have to give up a 1st and 3rd for him. What the **** is Elway doing with this negotiation?!!!

edited: Kiszla and Robinson said that the leak was from the organization.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Are you top 3 in the world at a particular thing?

I can belch the alphabet.

[NightTrainLayne]

Charlie Robinson just posted an article to yahoo saying talks have completely broken off now. The actual offer would have given Von the 13th largest guaranteed defensive contract currently in the NFL. Von's leverage is to sit out this season (which would screw us out of that 14mil on our cap this year) then sign on the market next year because he can't be tagged with an exclusive franchise tag twice. He can only be tagged with the regular franchise tag next year. The team that signs him would have to give up a 1st and 3rd for him. What the **** is Elway doing with this negotiation?!!!

edited: Kiszla and Robinson said that the leak was from the organization.

He's not going to sit out a season and give up $14+ million.

[Simple Jaded]

The Broncos have lost their ******* minds with that offer.

[foco]

He's not going to sit out a season and give up $14+ million.
His market value is AT LEAST $20mil guaranteed over this offer. If the broncos don't up the ante, he'll be able to make up that $14mil and more. Who knows how much the market is gonna go up next year? And this isn't Chris Harris (or to a lesser degree Derek Wolfe) who never made much money in his rookie contract. Von was the #2 overall pick and played this last year on the fifth year tender. He's made over $25mil already. He's got the money to sit out a year.

[MOtorboat]

His market value is AT LEAST $20mil guaranteed over this offer. If the broncos don't up the ante, he'll be able to make up that $14mil and more. Who knows how much the market is gonna go up next year? And this isn't Chris Harris (or to a lesser degree Derek Wolfe) who never made much money in his rookie contract. Von was the #2 overall pick and played this last year on the fifth year tender. He's made over $25mil already. He's got the money to sit out a year.

He's not going to sit out a year.

[Valar Morghulis]

120 mil, 60 guaranteed. 6 years.

After three years 20 guaranteed each year upon still being on the roster.

That would be my adjustment to the current offer.

[broncofaninfla]

I love me some Von but I'm against any offer that will prevent the team from being competitive under the salary cap. The thing that sucks most in this is the market value is inflated. If that's going to determine his value and Denver opts to sign him at that rate then get ready to lose some of your favorite players just to keep Von.

[Tned]

Charlie Robinson just posted an article to yahoo saying talks have completely broken off now. The actual offer would have given Von the 13th largest guaranteed defensive contract currently in the NFL. Von's leverage is to sit out this season (which would screw us out of that 14mil on our cap this year) then sign on the market next year because he can't be tagged with an exclusive franchise tag twice. He can only be tagged with the regular franchise tag next year. The team that signs him would have to give up a 1st and 3rd for him. What the **** is Elway doing with this negotiation?!!!

edited: Kiszla and Robinson said that the leak was from the organization.

Do you have a link to that article?

First, I've not seen anything that says that in the second year it has to be a non exclusive tag, but even if that's the case, the team has the right to match any contract extended to Von and if they don't match, the team signing Von would have to give the Broncos two first rounds picks. Think of it like the tender we see for restricted free agents.

[Tned]

120 mil, 60 guaranteed. 6 years.

After three years 20 guaranteed each year upon still being on the roster.

That would be my adjustment to the current offer.

Kind of crazy when you realize that's more than Manning got his first three years in Denver. I agree, that's probably where they need to land, but that is insane for a non QB.

[Davii]

Kind of crazy when you realize that's more than Manning got his first three years in Denver. I agree, that's probably where they need to land, but that is insane for a non QB.

I personally would keep the offer exactly where it is with the total money but fully guarantee that third year as well. I'd be willing to bet with the first three years fully guaranteed for more than three years of franchise tags he would be willing to sign.

[The Glue Factory]

His market value is AT LEAST $20mil guaranteed over this offer. If the broncos don't up the ante, he'll be able to make up that $14mil and more. Who knows how much the market is gonna go up next year? And this isn't Chris Harris (or to a lesser degree Derek Wolfe) who never made much money in his rookie contract. Von was the #2 overall pick and played this last year on the fifth year tender. He's made over $25mil already. He's got the money to sit out a year.

Uhh... You do realize that there's a salary CAP that the Broncos cannot exceed? Have you followed the Broncos in negotiating player contracts this year regarding how close they are to the cap? There are limitations completely independent of Miller's "worth" that factor into what the Broncos can offer. Then there's the business concerns that conflict with Miller's objectives.

Bottom line: It isn't as easy as you portray it.

[Ravage!!!]

His market value is AT LEAST $20mil guaranteed over this offer. If the broncos don't up the ante, he'll be able to make up that $14mil and more. Who knows how much the market is gonna go up next year? And this isn't Chris Harris (or to a lesser degree Derek Wolfe) who never made much money in his rookie contract. Von was the #2 overall pick and played this last year on the fifth year tender. He's made over $25mil already. He's got the money to sit out a year.

He sits out a year, the Broncos still own his rights. The Broncos would have to AGREE to accept the 2 First round picks. Is he going to sit out again? Think his value is going to go up after sitting 2 years and forfeiting nearly 30 million in salary? Sitting out is legally an 'option'..but it would be the absolute dumbest thing on earth to actually sit out. That's not going to happen. Cool your jets and relax.

[VonDoom]

Do you have a link to that article?

First, I've not seen anything that says that in the second year it has to be a non exclusive tag, but even if that's the case, the team has the right to match any contract extended to Von and if they don't match, the team signing Von would have to give the Broncos two first rounds picks. Think of it like the tender we see for restricted free agents.

This is the first I've heard of that as well, but apparently if someone sits out the whole year, the compensation changes the next year and the exclusive tag can't be used. I've seen two articles mention this today, but this is the Yahoo one he was referring to:


Miller could report and play (likely unhappily) under the franchise tag, facing as many as three straight seasons of tags before forcing his way to free agency. Or he could take the current impasse as something that can't be overcome and ask for the tag to be rescinded, resolving the situation in a fashion similar to Norman and the Panthers. He could also sit out the upcoming season, forcing the Broncos to apply a non-exclusive franchise tag next offseason. In that latter route, Miller could then negotiate and sign with other NFL teams, with the Broncos being awarded a first- and third-round pick if they choose not to match the offer.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/this-is-how-ugly-it-s-gotten-between-von-miller-and-broncos-014029461.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma

Edit: Here's another article that mentions this detail:



If Miller is willing to sit out the season, per a union source, the Broncos can’t exclusive tag him again. They can put the non-exclusive tag on him, at the normal tag rate, but the comp for another team to sign him then drops from two first-round picks to a first and a third, which some team may well being willing to pay. Now, I’m not saying Miller would be willing to sit out the year. What I am saying is there is some motivation to do so tucked in the rules

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/06/08/robert-griffin-rg3-cleveland-browns-starter-nfl-notes

I'm still of the opinion that this entire thing is overblown and that guys like this will look foolish for their inflammatory articles, but I guess nothing would surprise me at this point.

[VonDoom]

He sits out a year, the Broncos still own his rights.

Yes, and he can be unhappy the whole time and want to get out. And apparently we can only use the non-exclusive tag next year with compensation different than expected (a first and third rounder, not two firsts). I'm not worried, but it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

[Ravage!!!]

Yes, and he can be unhappy the whole time and want to get out. And apparently we can only use the non-exclusive tag next year with compensation different than expected (a first and third rounder, not two firsts). I'm not worried, but it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

Like I said...if it's an "option" then by definition it's a possibility. But it's "possible" that I win the lottery. The chances of Miller sitting out are as likely as me winning the lottery. Sitting out gains him absolutely nothing, and loses him a great deal. It would be the dumbest move, in the history of football, for Miller to sit out a year at this time.

[VonDoom]

Like I said...if it's an "option" then by definition it's a possibility. But it's "possible" that I win the lottery. The chances of Miller sitting out are as likely as me winning the lottery. Sitting out gains him absolutely nothing, and loses him a great deal. It would be the dumbest move, in the history of football, for Miller to sit out a year at this time.

Oh, I agree with you. I think there's a lot of people trying to drum up the idea that this could happen, but I see very little chance of that. Though I guess I would be okay with him holding out as long as I also win the lottery.

[Ravage!!!]

Oh, I agree with you. I think there's a lot of people trying to drum up the idea that this could happen, but I see very little chance of that. Though I guess I would be okay with him holding out as long as I also win the lottery.

Damn Straight!! :beer:

[Davii]

I don't think there is any chance in hell Von sits out, that would be crazy for him to do so. Also, both Von's camp and the Broncos have stated that talks have NOT been broken off, they are continuing regardless of what you read.

[Poet]

If Von Miller does a holdout or a sitout something would have to go terribly, terribly, terribly wrong; that kind of climate doesn't seem to exist right now in the talks.

[artie_dale]

So, me thinks all the attention to the idea that he could sit out a season is just the MSM bringing a possibility to the forefront, NOT because Von & his agent have suggested it. We've GOTTA just give him the guaranteed money that he deserves (at least Vernon or Watt guaranteed money). I can see why $38.5M vs $52M may feel like a slap in the face, especially with all the parading Von has done since the SB (ego has likely grown big time).

I just don't think you let a player like Von walk. Talib, we can live without him. Carolina's DB (forgot his name already), he's not Von Miller caliber and they knew it. You just don't let guys like Von, Khalil Mack, or JJ Watt, walk.

[ChairmanBron]

Like I said...if it's an "option" then by definition it's a possibility. But it's "possible" that I win the lottery. The chances of Miller sitting out are as likely as me winning the lottery. Sitting out gains him absolutely nothing, and loses him a great deal. It would be the dumbest move, in the history of football, for Miller to sit out a year at this time.

If he does sit out, I hate to say this, then I am all for trading him. Trade him for all we can get. No player is bigger than the organization. A huge contract is not going to help the other great players on this team in the long term.



.

[Poet]

Trading generational dominant prospects doesn't seem like a great way to stay on top...

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Mike Klis ‏@MikeKlis 38m

Von Miller is planning to attend Broncos' Super Bowl ring ceremony Sunday. Fitting if he got the first ring. #AWKWARD! #9news #9sports

[VonDoom]

So, me thinks all the attention to the idea that he could sit out a season is just the MSM bringing a possibility to the forefront, NOT because Von & his agent have suggested it. We've GOTTA just give him the guaranteed money that he deserves (at least Vernon or Watt guaranteed money). I can see why $38.5M vs $52M may feel like a slap in the face, especially with all the parading Von has done since the SB (ego has likely grown big time).

I just don't think you let a player like Von walk. Talib, we can live without him. Carolina's DB (forgot his name already), he's not Von Miller caliber and they knew it. You just don't let guys like Von, Khalil Mack, or JJ Watt, walk.

Klis reported yesterday that the total value and AAV of the contract was agreed upon by both sides. It is the guarantee that's the issue. The Broncos offer essentially guarantees two years, with the third year guaranteed for injury only. Von wants the three years fully guaranteed. This doesn't seem like the insurmountable rift that the media is portraying it as.

[Davii]

Klis reported yesterday that the total value and AAV of the contract was agreed upon by both sides. It is the guarantee that's the issue. The Broncos offer essentially guarantees two years, with the third year guaranteed for injury only. Von wants the three years fully guaranteed. This doesn't seem like the insurmountable rift that the media is portraying it as.

It seems like nothing to me. I mean, if that's the disagreement then this deal should be done today, why the holdup on the third year? Guarantee it.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

ENGLEWOOD—There is evil in the aborted Von Miller contract negotiations and it doesn’t lie within John Elway, Miller or Miller’s agent Joby Branion.

The sinister component is the franchise tag.

The NFL employs a compensation system where you’re better off being Malik Jackson than Von Miller.

To the spoils go a team’s second-best free agent player. To the very best player goes the franchise tag that invites hostility.

Here’s why: Miller, as a first-round draft pick in 2011, didn’t become a free agent until after his fifth season. Jackson, as a fifth-round draft pick in 2012, became an unrestricted free agent after his fourth season.

AND


Given his franchise tag weapon, Elway as the Broncos’ general manager was fair with his offer. The franchise tag market obligates the Broncos to pay Miller no more than $14.129 million in in 2016, a combined $31.084 million after two years and a combined $55.5 million after three years.

Elway offered Miller roughly $19 million in year one; $39.8 million combined through year two; and somewhere between $57 million and $59 million combined through year three.

The rest of the contract, it can be argued, is little more than numbers on paper, but still it averaged out to $19.083 million a year, a smidge more than Ndamukong Suh’s $19.063 million per year deal that currently sits as the record among NFL defensive players.

But given what Miller’s value would be on the open market, the standout linebacker and his agent were extremely conciliatory in accepting a deal worth $19.083 million a year.

full article - http://www.9news.com/sports/the-reason-why-broncos-contract-situation-with-von-miler-got-ugly/237997579

[broncofaninfla]

Super Bowls can be both the best thing and the worst thing to happen to a team. Super Bowl wins always result in greed and inflated egos which tears the team apart.

[Hawgdriver]

It concerns me that Denver's front office felt it necessary to release this. Why are they using the media?

Because hamfists?

[Joel]

I think a portion of yr 3 should be guarenteed. He will be atound a lot longer than 3 yrs elway. This is a guy groomed by you and now you are offering him a 2 yr guarenteed contract just like a FA rental? I know elway is start with cap. But this does not bode for future extensions well if its only a 2 yr contract basically.
I regretfully agree. With Manning gone, Von's undeniably the most important single player on the team, especially after earning SB MVP honors (and if the NFL had a Playoff MVP award, he'd have that, too: He was not just dominant but DECISIVE each and every game.) So if we're effectively offering only a 2-year $40M contract, what will we offer our less critical re-signees (which is ALL OF THEM)? Hopefully it's just an opening negotiation tactic, but even as that it's a bad one, IMHO.

After all, Elway's been on the other end of this, and the Broncos did all they could to get him what he wanted and was worth without breaking our cap (even at the cost of inadvertently violating the CBA with a practice now standard, and being penalized draft picks because of it.) I don't know what Elway would've said if we'd instead said, "Yeah, we'll lock you in for $15M the next two years, and everything after that's discretionary," but I bet HE does.
I am pretty sure Elway wouldn't have eagerly responded with, "Great, thanks; just happy to be on the team! :salute:"


I personally would keep the offer exactly where it is with the total money but fully guarantee that third year as well. I'd be willing to bet with the first three years fully guaranteed for more than three years of franchise tags he would be willing to sign.
This seems like a no-brainer; hope Elway's not outsmarting himself.



Given his franchise tag weapon, Elway as the Broncos’ general manager was fair with his offer. The franchise tag market obligates the Broncos to pay Miller no more than $14.129 million in in 2016, a combined $31.084 million after two years and a combined $55.5 million after three years.

Elway offered Miller roughly $19 million in year one; $39.8 million combined through year two; and somewhere between $57 million and $59 million combined through year three.

The rest of the contract, it can be argued, is little more than numbers on paper, but still it averaged out to $19.083 million a year, a smidge more than Ndamukong Suh’s $19.063 million per year deal that currently sits as the record among NFL defensive players.
Except that's not so, because the "somewhere between $17M and $19M" for year three isn't guaranteed UNTIL year three: It's ALSO "little more than numbers on paper" until 2018. This is a former #2 overall pick, DRoY and reigning SB MVP we're basically telling we'll pay as he goes once his odometer rolls over in two years.

It's not happening in a vacuum either. Last year we made the GoAT convert $4M of his salary into incentives, and Von Miller's the biggest reason he regained half of it by reaching and the other by winning the SB. Ware was a huge part of it, too—but we just made him restructure ANYWAY because, y'know, he's old and gimpy now. Former All Pro Ryan Clady VOLUNTEERED to do the same, but when we said, "how's a 50% pay cut sound?" he left.

You can't get a guy to play on club options when he's arguably the greatest defensive player in the game (yes, I'm aware of Watt: Von's as good a run stuffer and pass rusher, but how many times has Watt covered a WR in the corner of the end zone during a SB?) When he's old and gimpy is precisely when he'll need the massive bank roll he has the leverage to earn NOW but won't THEN, and even a Dumb Aggie realizes that.

[TXBRONC]

It seems like nothing to me. I mean, if that's the disagreement then this deal should be done today, why the holdup on the third year? Guarantee it.

If that's the only sticking point it will resolved and Miller will be a Bronco for years to come.

[Ravage!!!]

Super Bowls can be both the best thing and the worst thing to happen to a team. Super Bowl wins always result in greed and inflated egos which tears the team apart.

I see what you are saying, but why keep a team together if it's unable to win the Super Bowl?

[BroncoWave]

I see what you are saying, but why keep a team together if it's unable to win the Super Bowl?

I could think of several reasons. Maybe you are a young, up and coming team and want to keep it together because the team is improving. Maybe you got to the Super Bowl and lost it on a blown call or something. Just because you didn't win a Super Bowl doesn't mean you shouldn't try to keep as much of your team as possible together.

[OrangeHoof]

I would be shocked if this couldn't get done. But both sides will probably "chicken" with the other.

[Joel]

I would be shocked if this couldn't get done. But both sides will probably "chicken" with the other.
Well, you never take THEIR first offer or open with YOUR best one (although there's a few people in Washington who don't seem to grasp that simple logic) so maybe.

[Poet]

I am getting cranky.

[GEM]

Trouble in paradise? :(

9088

[Davii]

Trouble in paradise? :(

9088

I sure as hell hope not.

[ShaneFalco]

man sounds like von is actually mad.

[Poet]

Crankiness rising.

[Tned]

At least he's not pissed at Kubiak, that's something.

[The Glue Factory]

At least he's not pissed at Kubiak, that's something.

Seems like he's smart enough to know contract troubles have nothing to do with the coach. Then again, maybe he couldn't manipulate the image to exclude coach. :confused:

[BORDERLINE]

This sucks .....that is all.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Trouble in paradise? :(

9088

IMO, that is nothing but stupid

[tomjonesrocks]

Trouble in paradise? :( <img src="http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9088"/>

Elway says he can't make friends with players. Guess he takes that mantra seriously.

Hopefully they get it banged out. DT was as good as gone for awhile also.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

It already was known that the expired (for now) offer made by the Broncos to linebacker Von Miller includes $39.5 million in cash payments over the first two years. It’s also known that Miller asked for more than $70 million to be paid out over three years.

Here’s something that wasn’t previously known (as far as I know) about the team’s offer. The lapsed deal, which surely would be un-lapsed if Miller wanted to accept it, has a total injury guarantee of $58 million at signing, with the remainder of the $58 million becoming fully guaranteed on the fifth day of the 2018 league year.

Delaying the vesting of the guaranteed money until future years is a common device, with very few players (e.g., Ndamukong Suh) ever getting three years of fully guaranteed money at signing. Teams do it because of the funding rule, which requires fully-guaranteed future payments to be placed into escrow, under the outdated assumption that the team may not be able to make ends meet at a later date.

rest - http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/06/10/broncos-offer-to-miller-contained-58-million-injury-guarantee/

[Nomad]

If he does sit out, I hate to say this, then I am all for trading him. Trade him for all we can get. No player is bigger than the organization. A huge contract is not going to help the other great players on this team in the long term.



.

What happened to Von saying "I want to be a BRONCO for life"? I agree, in the end, it's about the Denver BRONCOS.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Is the decision to not accept the Broncos' offer, all Von's decision? I would assume not. I would assume the agent is also fueling the fire - telling Von he deserves more. After all, the more Von gets, the more the agent gets.

[Ravage!!!]

Is the decision to not accept the Broncos' offer, all Von's decision? I would assume not. I would assume the agent is also fueling the fire - telling Von he deserves more. After all, the more Von gets, the more the agent gets.

The players know their money and what they are being paid to everyone else (at his position) in the NFL. It's not like John isn't known for low offers.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Miller’s camp, led by agent Joby Branion, has previously pointed out his dominance -- Miller all but single-handedly won Super Bowl 50 with his two strip sacks that led to two touchdowns in a two touchdown victory against Carolina – and the fact nearly every other first-round standout from the 2011 draft received contract extensions before they became eligible for free agency -- and the franchise tag.

Miller’s reps have referred not only to Suh’s contract, but the recent $17 million a year deal the New York Giants gave defensive lineman Olivier Dean that included $29 million in year one cash. Vernon has 29.0 career sacks and no playoff appearances. Miller has 60.0 career sacks and 6.5 more in the postseason.

http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/broncos-break-off-contract-talks-with-von-miller/237274687

[NightTrainLayne]

Good grief guys. A high-stakes multi-million dollar negotiation is taking place. Both sides are going to use as much leverage as possible.

John is not friends with the players. This is a good thing for the team overall. I promise you Elway is a good enough manager that if Von intentionally cut him out of the picture (which is likely), that it will not effect Elway one iota. And it shouldn't.

A deal will be made eventually. Everyone will be happy, and Von will be photographed a thousand times with Elway during signing, and at the press conference afterwards. There is still plenty of time. Both sides are doing their due diligence, nothing more, nothing less.

[BroncoWave]

Good grief guys. A high-stakes multi-million dollar negotiation is taking place. Both sides are going to use as much leverage as possible.

John is not friends with the players. This is a good thing for the team overall. I promise you Elway is a good enough manager that if Von intentionally cut him out of the picture (which is likely), that it will not effect Elway one iota. And it shouldn't.

A deal will be made eventually. Everyone will be happy, and Von will be photographed a thousand times with Elway during signing, and at the press conference afterwards. There is still plenty of time. Both sides are doing their due diligence, nothing more, nothing less.

But with this viewpoint we can't make a big dramatic ordeal over everything!

[Joel]

Is the decision to not accept the Broncos' offer, all Von's decision? I would assume not. I would assume the agent is also fueling the fire - telling Von he deserves more. After all, the more Von gets, the more the agent gets.
True, but Von DOES deserve more: That offer to a SB (and really PLAYOFF) MVP is practically insulting.


Miller’s camp, led by agent Joby Branion, has previously pointed out his dominance -- Miller all but single-handedly won Super Bowl 50 with his two strip sacks that led to two touchdowns in a two touchdown victory against Carolina – and the fact nearly every other first-round standout from the 2011 draft received contract extensions before they became eligible for free agency -- and the franchise tag.

Miller’s reps have referred not only to Suh’s contract, but the recent $17 million a year deal the New York Giants gave defensive lineman Olivier Dean that included $29 million in year one cash. Vernon has 29.0 career sacks and no playoff appearances. Miller has 60.0 career sacks and 6.5 more in the postseason.
That, IMHO, is a HUGE part of the problem. Elway always talks a great game about working with guys all season to re-sign them before their contracts end, but if that's anything more than talk he's REALLY bad at it, because the only times I recall it happening were with Harris and Wolfe. Remember Cladys tag? DTs? Faxgate? Why's SANCHEZ our starter? I'm dreading the same thing happening with Sanders, Webster and a host of other 2017 FAs.

Inflation pushes the price of EVERY player higher EVERY year, so re-signing a guy after his contract ends rather than extending him in the final or penultimate year doesn't save a dime: It COSTS a lot of cap space. Now, Elway's a brilliant guy who got us back to the Promised Land, and all the FAs signed to do so are a big factor in restricting his re-signing options, but there's no shame in admitting he's not PERFECT at EVERYTHING.

More to the point, it's no slight nor heresy to admit John Elway doesn't walk on water. He's probably the best at spotting top FAs on OTHER teams and getting them for bargain prices, but his record of spotting draft talent is TBD, and his record of RETAINING talent is pretty bad; he kinda HAS to be good in free agency.

[Davii]

5 years, 5 Division Championships, 2 Conference Championships, 1 NFL Championship.

I think John knows exactly what he's doing.

[Nomad]

5 years, 5 Division Championships, 2 Conference Championships, 1 NFL Championship.

I think John knows exactly what he's doing.

In Elway I trust!

[NightTrainLayne]

But with this viewpoint we can't make a big dramatic ordeal over everything!

Yeah. Drama is more fun I guess.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Huge contracts for non-QBs still scare me. The Broncos have been burned so many times by big payouts and lack of production. If Von is still the animal he is after the big contract, great. If he falls off, even a little, it's just too much. Von was great for us last year, especially in the post season, but was it because it was a contract year? How much was because of Wade's system? How much was because of the talent around him?

I will be devastated if he gets the huge deal and falls off a cliff next year.

[NightTrainLayne]

True, but Von DOES deserve more: That offer to a SB (and really PLAYOFF) MVP is practically insulting.


That, IMHO, is a HUGE part of the problem. Elway always talks a great game about working with guys all season to re-sign them before their contracts end, but if that's anything more than talk he's REALLY bad at it, because the only times I recall it happening were with Harris and Wolfe. Remember Cladys tag? DTs? Faxgate? Why's SANCHEZ our starter? I'm dreading the same thing happening with Sanders, Webster and a host of other 2017 FAs.

Inflation pushes the price of EVERY player higher EVERY year, so re-signing a guy after his contract ends rather than extending him in the final or penultimate year doesn't save a dime: It COSTS a lot of cap space. Now, Elway's a brilliant guy who got us back to the Promised Land, and all the FAs signed to do so are a big factor in restricting his re-signing options, but there's no shame in admitting he's not PERFECT at EVERYTHING.

More to the point, it's no slight nor heresy to admit John Elway doesn't walk on water. He's probably the best at spotting top FAs on OTHER teams and getting them for bargain prices, but his record of spotting draft talent is TBD, and his record of RETAINING talent is pretty bad; he kinda HAS to be good in free agency.

How many of those other standouts from the 2011 draft who were also extended before the end of their contract battled 1) being in the drug program, 2) Suspension for a significant portion of a season for violating the same & 3) major injury?

There are rational, and good reasons that Miller perhaps wasn't extended earlier.

[BroncoWave]

Huge contracts for non-QBs still scare me. The Broncos have been burned so many times by big payouts and lack of production. If Von is still the animal he is after the big contract, great. If he falls off, even a little, it's just too much. Von was great for us last year, especially in the post season, but was it because it was a contract year? How much was because of Wade's system? How much was because of the talent around him?

I will be devastated if he gets the huge deal and falls off a cliff next year.

Wut? He's been great his whole career. It's not like he was an average player who suddenly had a huge uptick in production in a contract year. This was actually, in terms of sacks and tackles, his least productive season of his career not counting the year he got hurt.

[Nomad]

Huge contracts for non-QBs still scare me. The Broncos have been burned so many times by big payouts and lack of production. If Von is still the animal he is after the big contract, great. If he falls off, even a little, it's just too much. Von was great for us last year, especially in the post season, but was it because it was a contract year? How much was because of Wade's system? How much was because of the talent around him?

I will be devastated if he gets the huge deal and falls off a cliff next year.

Teams see it all too often after big contracts, perhaps this is on Elway's mind as well.

[Poet]

Wut? He's been great his whole career. It's not like he was an average player who suddenly had a huge uptick in production in a contract year. This was actually, in terms of sacks and tackles, his least productive season of his career not counting the year he got hurt.

Von Miller has arguably never not been a top ten defensive player (since the conclusion of his rookie year) and has shown he can produce in a 4-3, a 3-4, and even procured sacks as a DE in the 4-3 and OLB. He's one of the most versatile players in the game and can stuff the run and drop into coverage. I agree with you here; Von Miller is a style god and was a style god before Wade Phillips rolled into town.

[Northman]

Huge contracts for non-QBs still scare me. The Broncos have been burned so many times by big payouts and lack of production. If Von is still the animal he is after the big contract, great. If he falls off, even a little, it's just too much. Von was great for us last year, especially in the post season, but was it because it was a contract year? How much was because of Wade's system? How much was because of the talent around him?

I will be devastated if he gets the huge deal and falls off a cliff next year.

If he does it wont be because he is overrated. Von has more than proven he is talented enough to be one of the best defenders in the league. If he gets paid and has a downfall it will be because he mentally packed it in which would still be a shame but in my mind he has done enough to be paid the best possible by the Broncos. In some respects, he did what Manning couldnt when push comes to shove.

[Poet]

Let the record state my mancrush on Von Miller is second only to my love of artery-clogging food.

[Northman]

Of course, i didnt see this coming.

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/denver-broncos-von-miller-john-elway-white-house-photo-cropped-out-061016


Von Miller (http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/von-miller-player) and the Denver Broncos (http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/denver-broncos-team) are currently in a standoff over the Super Bowl MVP's contract situation. After being slapped with the franchise tag (http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/von-miller-sit-out-season-franchise-tag-denver-broncos-contract-talks-2016-nfl-salary-060916)back in March, the two sides have been working towards a lucrative, long-term extension that would keep Miller in Denver for years to come. Only, they can't agree on a contract, despite the Broncos offering him a reported (http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/von-miller-denver-broncos-contract-offer-negotiations-060816) $114.5 million. According to reports, Miller is supposedly threatening to sit out the entire 2016 season if a deal can't be reached. And now, he's seemingly taking subtle jabs at Broncos general manager John Elway. The team visited the White House on Monday to celebrate their Super Bowl victory with President Barack Obama. DeMarcus Ware shared a group photo on Friday, as did Miller. There was just one key difference.

[MOtorboat]

I would prefer if they would just pay him. I understand why it's not that easy.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Broncos turn their attention to Brandon Marshall, Emmanuel Sanders


ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- Unable to close a deal for linebacker Von Miller before the end of the team's mandatory minicamp this past week, the Denver Broncos have started to consider some of the other items on their offseason to-do list.

rest - http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/20687/new-deals-for-brandon-marshall-emmanuel-sanders-and-von-miller-would-be-tight-squeeze

[Joel]

How many of those other standouts from the 2011 draft who were also extended before the end of their contract battled 1) being in the drug program, 2) Suspension for a significant portion of a season for violating the same & 3) major injury?

There are rational, and good reasons that Miller perhaps wasn't extended earlier.
NONE of those reasons applied after 2013, so why are we still waiting on the re-signing in 2016? He's not even in the drug program anymore, and hasn't been since 2014. How many of those other 2011 draft standouts were SB MVP?


Wut? He's been great his whole career. It's not like he was an average player who suddenly had a huge uptick in production in a contract year. This was actually, in terms of sacks and tackles, his least productive season of his career not counting the year he got hurt.
Yeah, really don't get this argument; he's been elite his whole career, so why would he suddenly and inexplicably "fall off a cliff" now?


Von Miller has arguably never not been a top ten defensive player (since the conclusion of his rookie year) and has shown he can produce in a 4-3, a 3-4, and even procured sacks as a DE in the 4-3 and OLB. He's one of the most versatile players in the game and can stuff the run and drop into coverage. I agree with you here; Von Miller is a style god and was a style god before Wade Phillips rolled into town.
Even the qualifier's superfluous: It's a safe bet the DRoY is a top ten defensive player. As you say, he does EVERYTHING well: Stuffs the run, racks up double digit sacks, even rips completions away from SB WRs in the end zone. It's why I think he's better than Watt: Sure, Watt's devastating against runners and QBs, but what brain dead DC would drop him in deep sideline coverage of a WR in the SB? Short of posting 60+% completions and rushing for 5+ yds/att, what more COULD Von do?

Pay the man what he's EARNED. Ask the Jags how many SBs are won with a roster of bargain basement players comfortably under the cap every year.

[aberdien]

Pay the man.

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/99Rz44aqZNl0wmYN2OFC6x7Ihls=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6008411/camfumble.0.gif

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/OV77KKXcmWYsox5LCTrD8_vtzmo=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/5930203/crotch.0.gif

[Joel]

Or how 'bout this, in the AFCCG, on THE VERY NEXT PLAY after he was robbed of a sack: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000627533/Von-Miller-picks-off-Tom-Brady

[Poet]

Von Miller is the stylegod. Stylegods get paid.

[sneakers]

Von Miller is the stylegod. Stylegods get paid.

did you just make up a word?

[sneakers]

Signing anyone to a $120 million dollar contract is just Joe Flaccoing your team and you won't do shit for 5 years after the contract is signed

[Poet]

did you just make up a word?

The word stylegod has existed throughout mankind's history.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

5 years, 5 Division Championships, 2 Conference Championships, 1 NFL Championship.

I think John knows exactly what he's doing.

Yes he does, and during one of those conference championships Von was on IR.

[Simple Jaded]

I'm probably a stylegod too, I bet.

[Poet]

I'm probably a stylegod too, I bet.

No.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'm probably a stylegod too, I bet.

I like Boulder.

[Simple Jaded]

I like Boulder.

AL you're a stylegod if I've ever seen one.

[Simple Jaded]

No.

Yes way!

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

AL you're a stylegod if I've ever seen one.

Your jedI mind tricks won't work on me bro. I know 2 or 3 posts into this conversation you'll compare Paradis to a breach in a dam.

[Poet]

Yes way!

There are only a few style gods on this board. You are close, but you have not passed the true test. Al will never be a style god because he disrespects my Kingisms and is rude to me. Regardless, what is most important is that we retain Von Miller for his is a true style god.

[Simple Jaded]

Your jedI mind tricks won't work on me bro. I know 2 or 3 posts into this conversation you'll compare Paradis to a breach in a dam.

In my defense I can resist a lot longer than 2 or 3 posts

[Valar Morghulis]

Jaded is my favorite Tim Tebow analyst.

[Poet]

Jaded is my favorite Tim Tebow analyst.

He just runs the truth out there with a sort of incredulous frankness. I fear him.

[BroncoJoe]

NFL franchise tag players: Who gets signed?

Verdict: Signs six-year, $120 million deal with $65 million guaranteed

http://fansided.com/2016/05/30/nfl-franchise-tag-players-who-gets-signed/8/

[Davii]

http://fansided.com/2016/05/30/nfl-franchise-tag-players-who-gets-signed/8/

That sounds about right. I didn't know the part about having 66 million under the cap next year

[Cugel]

I would prefer if they would just pay him. I understand why it's not that easy.

What freaks me out is how easy to do this would have been last season - in July 2015. At that time Miller was worth Justin Houston money - "6 year, $101,000,000 contract with the Kansas City Chiefs, including a $20,500,000 signing bonus, $52,500,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $16,833,333. The deal includes $32.5 million in upfront guarantees, consisting of his signing bonus, 2015 salary, and $11 million of his 2016 salary."

For some infuriating and insane reason the Broncos just refuse to lock up their key players a year early like the Seahawks do. The Seahawks had the same problem the Broncos have now.

In 2013, they won the SB with an historically great defense, then went back again the next year. EVERY team in the NFL was just panting for the chance to steal their players. The Atlanta Falcons hired their defensive coordinator Dan Quinn. The NFL is a copy cat league and the easiest way to destroy a rival SB champion and get there yourself is to try and steal their players. SB winning players and coaches get a premium in this league.

But the Seahawks had a plan: they were paying Russell Wilson less than $1M a year so they went out and locked up their key players A YEAR BEFORE THEIR CONTRACTS EXPIRED!

They did this with Kam Chancellor, Bobby Wagner, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas, Cliff Avril and K.J. Wright. NONE of their core defensive players of the "Legion of Boom" got anywhere near FA.

You can see the impact of this by just imagining what a team like the Raiders that had $70 M under the cap earlier this year would have done if Richard Sherman were a FA. They would have offered him the moon. In order to keep him the Seahawks would have had to franchise him and then they'd be involved in lengthy and contentious contract negotiations about whether Sherman was worth $18 or $19 M a year - because that's exactly what some crazy team would offer him, which establishes the market. (He's getting $14M/yr. instead).

But, they avoided all that by not waiting until the player played out his entire contract or was well into his final year (October, November, January) before they would extend and negotiate him.

The Broncos could have avoided all the drama and angst by locking up Von Miller LAST year for a LOT less money than he's going to get this year. It just annoys the hell out of me that they refused to do it.

Oh, and before you bother arguing that they couldn't do that because of salary cap reasons: wrong. Because of the signing bonus and the way the deal was structured, Justin Houston's contract had a $5.1M cap hit in 2015 (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/justin-houston/). $5.1 M! The Broncos could have done something similar with Miller.

[Davii]

What freaks me out is how easy to do this would have been last season - in July 2015. At that time Miller was worth Justin Houston money - "6 year, $101,000,000 contract with the Kansas City Chiefs, including a $20,500,000 signing bonus, $52,500,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $16,833,333. The deal includes $32.5 million in upfront guarantees, consisting of his signing bonus, 2015 salary, and $11 million of his 2016 salary."

For some infuriating and insane reason the Broncos just refuse to lock up their key players a year early like the Seahawks do. The Seahawks had the same problem the Broncos have now.

In 2013, they won the SB with an historically great defense, then went back again the next year. EVERY team in the NFL was just panting for the chance to steal their players. The Atlanta Falcons hired their defensive coordinator Dan Quinn. The NFL is a copy cat league and the easiest way to destroy a rival SB champion and get there yourself is to try and steal their players. SB winning players and coaches get a premium in this league.

But the Seahawks had a plan: they were paying Russell Wilson less than $1M a year so they went out and locked up their key players A YEAR BEFORE THEIR CONTRACTS EXPIRED!

They did this with Kam Chancellor, Bobby Wagner, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas, Cliff Avril and K.J. Wright. NONE of their core defensive players of the "Legion of Boom" got anywhere near FA.

You can see the impact of this by just imagining what a team like the Raiders that had $70 M under the cap earlier this year would have done if Richard Sherman were a FA. They would have offered him the moon. In order to keep him the Seahawks would have had to franchise him and then they'd be involved in lengthy and contentious contract negotiations about whether Sherman was worth $18 or $19 M a year - because that's exactly what some crazy team would offer him, which establishes the market. (He's getting $14M/yr. instead).

But, they avoided all that by not waiting until the player played out his entire contract or was well into his final year (October, November, January) before they would extend and negotiate him.

The Broncos could have avoided all the drama and angst by locking up Von Miller LAST year for a LOT less money than he's going to get this year. It just annoys the hell out of me that they refused to do it.

Oh, and before you bother arguing that they couldn't do that because of salary cap reasons: wrong. Because of the signing bonus and the way the deal was structured, Justin Houston's contract had a $5.1M cap hit in 2015 (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/justin-houston/). $5.1 M! The Broncos could have done something similar with Miller.

And you're convinced Von would have signed that contract how? I mean, surely his agent would have told him all he could get is 101 million dollars even though three years of the franchise tag is more than that, right? When you can go back in time and show me any reason why Von would've shorted himself 6 months or a year ago i'll entertain this ridiculous notion, until then this is no different than the whole Brock Osweiler ridiculous BS that you were pushing.

Neither one of them would have signed the contracts you are proposing and their agents would have been kicked in the nuts, fired, and never work as an agent again for suggesting they do so.

[MOtorboat]

What freaks me out is how easy to do this would have been last season - in July 2015. At that time Miller was worth Justin Houston money - "6 year, $101,000,000 contract with the Kansas City Chiefs, including a $20,500,000 signing bonus, $52,500,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $16,833,333. The deal includes $32.5 million in upfront guarantees, consisting of his signing bonus, 2015 salary, and $11 million of his 2016 salary."

For some infuriating and insane reason the Broncos just refuse to lock up their key players a year early like the Seahawks do. The Seahawks had the same problem the Broncos have now.

In 2013, they won the SB with an historically great defense, then went back again the next year. EVERY team in the NFL was just panting for the chance to steal their players. The Atlanta Falcons hired their defensive coordinator Dan Quinn. The NFL is a copy cat league and the easiest way to destroy a rival SB champion and get there yourself is to try and steal their players. SB winning players and coaches get a premium in this league.

But the Seahawks had a plan: they were paying Russell Wilson less than $1M a year so they went out and locked up their key players A YEAR BEFORE THEIR CONTRACTS EXPIRED!

They did this with Kam Chancellor, Bobby Wagner, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas, Cliff Avril and K.J. Wright. NONE of their core defensive players of the "Legion of Boom" got anywhere near FA.

You can see the impact of this by just imagining what a team like the Raiders that had $70 M under the cap earlier this year would have done if Richard Sherman were a FA. They would have offered him the moon. In order to keep him the Seahawks would have had to franchise him and then they'd be involved in lengthy and contentious contract negotiations about whether Sherman was worth $18 or $19 M a year - because that's exactly what some crazy team would offer him, which establishes the market. (He's getting $14M/yr. instead).

But, they avoided all that by not waiting until the player played out his entire contract or was well into his final year (October, November, January) before they would extend and negotiate him.

The Broncos could have avoided all the drama and angst by locking up Von Miller LAST year for a LOT less money than he's going to get this year. It just annoys the hell out of me that they refused to do it.

Oh, and before you bother arguing that they couldn't do that because of salary cap reasons: wrong. Because of the signing bonus and the way the deal was structured, Justin Houston's contract had a $5.1M cap hit in 2015 (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/justin-houston/). $5.1 M! The Broncos could have done something similar with Miller.

Why do you assume players would sign those lesser deals? Wishful thinking?

[Cugel]

And you're convinced Von would have signed that contract how? I mean, surely his agent would have told him all he could get is 101 million dollars even though three years of the franchise tag is more than that, right? When you can go back in time and show me any reason why Von would've shorted himself 6 months or a year ago i'll entertain this ridiculous notion, until then this is no different than the whole Brock Osweiler ridiculous BS that you were pushing.

Neither one of them would have signed the contracts you are proposing and their agents would have been kicked in the nuts, fired, and never work as an agent again for suggesting they do so.

You're just flat wrong of course. Your ridiculous post just shows you know NOTHING about contract negotiations. Nothing whatever.

Playing out your contract in hopes of a big FA reward at the end of it is dangerous. The player may be hurt, he may underperform the contract. In that case his FA value might very well be zero $. Players suffer devastating injury all the time. One second you're Bo Jackson running for a TD on Monday night football and one of the biggest stars in the NFL with huge endorsement deals. Next second you have an artificial hip and your career is over. Done.

And the team can always franchise the player in any case, as in Von's case, which means he won't reach FA anyway.

Ryan Clady suffered a lis franc injury and then tore up his knee. He missed 2 seasons and was limited in one other. The minute the Broncos no longer owed him a bunch of guaranteed money they cut him loose. Zero loyalty.

Playing without guaranteed money is like playing with a hand-grenade that can go off at any minute. So, yes any player can be signed a year before his deal expires. And for less money. I gave you six examples from the Seahawks, but it's the normal practice in the NFL for EVERY Team.

The player gives up some money he could win in FA for some security of having a long term guaranteed contract. The team runs some risk the player could be injured or underperform the contract, but gets cap relief and gets the player at a lower contract price.

If you don't understand the most elemental points about NFL contract negotiations I give up.

As JFK said "10% never get the word." And you are definitely one of that 10%.

[MOtorboat]

You're just flat wrong of course. Your ridiculous post just shows you know NOTHING about contract negotiations. Nothing whatever.

Playing out your contract in hopes of a big FA reward at the end of it is dangerous. The player may be hurt, he may underperform the contract. In that case his FA value might very well be zero $. Players suffer devastating injury all the time. One second you're Bo Jackson running for a TD on Monday night football and one of the biggest stars in the NFL with huge endorsement deals. Next second you have an artificial hip and your career is over. Done.

And the team can always franchise the player in any case, as in Von's case, which means he won't reach FA anyway.

Ryan Clady suffered a lis franc injury and then tore up his knee. He missed 2 seasons and was limited in one other. The minute the Broncos no longer owed him a bunch of guaranteed money they cut him loose. Zero loyalty.

Playing without guaranteed money is like playing with a hand-grenade that can go off at any minute. So, yes any player can be signed a year before his deal expires. And for less money. I gave you six examples from the Seahawks, but it's the normal practice in the NFL for EVERY Team.

The player gives up some money he could win in FA for some security of having a long term guaranteed contract. The team runs some risk the player could be injured or underperform the contract, but gets cap relief and gets the player at a lower contract price.

If you don't understand the most elemental points about NFL contract negotiations I give up.

As JFK said "10% never get the word." And you are definitely one of that 10%.

Lol. What a load of tripe.

Both Miller and Osweiler weren't going to sign last year because neither were in a position to have any sort of bargaining power in the negotiations. Osweiler hadn't played more than a few snaps in his career and Miller hadn't even gone a full year without being in the drug program. Is it a gamble for any player to wait and negotiate? Sure is, but don't tell someone they don't know how negotiations work when you are only depicting one side of the negotiation and you're not even considering the other.

[Cugel]

Why do you assume players would sign those lesser deals? Wishful thinking?

Because if they don't and then get hurt they can wind up with nothing. Or if they underperform the contract they can wind up with much less than they could have signed for. If you are an accountant, that might not be as great a risk. But if a 320 lbs lineman can fall on your knee on any given play and end your career (like what happened accidentally to Terrell Davis when Matt Lepsis fell on his knee), playing without a long term guaranteed contract is too great a risk.

All commentators about the NFL agree - the only real money is GUARANTEED money.

[MOtorboat]

Because if they don't and then get hurt they can wind up with nothing. Or if they underperform the contract they can wind up with much less than they could have signed for. If you are an accountant, that might not be as great a risk. But if a 320 lbs lineman can fall on your knee on any given play and end your career (like what happened accidentally to Terrell Davis when Matt Lepsis fell on his knee), playing without a long term guaranteed contract is too great a risk.

All commentators about the NFL agree - the only real money is GUARANTEED money.

So you expected Von Miller to take less money last year when there was the potential for him to get the largest contract in NFL history for a defensive player and everyone knew it? This is laugh out loud funny. I don't know what to say if you don't understand why Miller and his agent played it out.

BTW, every player you're listing with an injury got at least one big pay day before injury.

[Cugel]

Lol. What a load of tripe.

Both Miller and Osweiler weren't going to sign last year because neither were in a position to have any sort of bargaining power in the negotiations. Osweiler hadn't played more than a few snaps in his career and Miller hadn't even gone a full year without being in the drug program. Is it a gamble for any player to wait and negotiate? Sure is, but don't tell someone they don't know how negotiations work when you are only depicting one side of the negotiation and you're not even considering the other.

What you seem not to grasp is that this is industry standard in the NFL. I gave you six examples from the Seahawks. Every one of those players could have made millions more if they played out their contracts. They eagerly re signed with the team because it gave them security.

Neither player signed last off-season because the Broncos didn't make them any kind of offer last off-season. There were no serious negotiations.

Osweiler couldn't have expected anything like the contract he got because he hadn't played. So, unless he could have predicted he would play and then some stupid team like the Texans would offer him $18M a year - then YES he would have re-signed last August for a lot less than he was offered this year.

As for Miller, Justin Houston's contract provided the bench-mark. He had 22 sacks the previous year and got $16M a year. Von's agent was asking for more than that amount. The Broncos preferred to wait. Now they have to pay more.

[Poet]

Because if they don't and then get hurt they can wind up with nothing. Or if they underperform the contract they can wind up with much less than they could have signed for. If you are an accountant, that might not be as great a risk. But if a 320 lbs lineman can fall on your knee on any given play and end your career (like what happened accidentally to Terrell Davis when Matt Lepsis fell on his knee), playing without a long term guaranteed contract is too great a risk.

All commentators about the NFL agree - the only real money is GUARANTEED money.

We routinely see young players try to maximize their earnings. Your presumption is based on faulty notions, Cugel.

[BroncoJoe]

You're just flat wrong of course. Your ridiculous post just shows you know NOTHING about contract negotiations. Nothing whatever.

Playing out your contract in hopes of a big FA reward at the end of it is dangerous. The player may be hurt, he may underperform the contract. In that case his FA value might very well be zero $. Players suffer devastating injury all the time. One second you're Bo Jackson running for a TD on Monday night football and one of the biggest stars in the NFL with huge endorsement deals. Next second you have an artificial hip and your career is over. Done.

And the team can always franchise the player in any case, as in Von's case, which means he won't reach FA anyway.

Ryan Clady suffered a lis franc injury and then tore up his knee. He missed 2 seasons and was limited in one other. The minute the Broncos no longer owed him a bunch of guaranteed money they cut him loose. Zero loyalty.

Playing without guaranteed money is like playing with a hand-grenade that can go off at any minute. So, yes any player can be signed a year before his deal expires. And for less money. I gave you six examples from the Seahawks, but it's the normal practice in the NFL for EVERY Team.

The player gives up some money he could win in FA for some security of having a long term guaranteed contract. The team runs some risk the player could be injured or underperform the contract, but gets cap relief and gets the player at a lower contract price.

If you don't understand the most elemental points about NFL contract negotiations I give up.

As JFK said "10% never get the word." And you are definitely one of that 10%.

Your responses to contract negotiations absolutely PROVE to me that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Smash your computer screen, shove your keyboard where the sun doesn't shine and delete your account here.

TIA.

[Cugel]

So you expected Von Miller to take less money last year when there was the potential for him to get the largest contract in NFL history for a defensive player and everyone knew it? This is laugh out loud funny. I don't know what to say if you don't understand why Miller and his agent played it out.

BTW, every player you're listing with an injury got at least one big pay day before injury.

Most NFL players whose careers end early due to injury do NOT ever get a huge payday. But, such players are obscure because nobody remembers them.

Von Miller and his agent did NOT "play it out." The Broncos did not offer them a deal in July 2015. The team was not required to re-negotiate. Miller was under contract for 2015 and they had the franchise tag ready for 2016.

The team, not Miller preferred to wait. You continue to be dead wrong about everything.

[GEM]

You're just flat wrong of course. Your ridiculous post just shows you know NOTHING about contract negotiations. Nothing whatever.

Playing out your contract in hopes of a big FA reward at the end of it is dangerous. The player may be hurt, he may underperform the contract. In that case his FA value might very well be zero $. Players suffer devastating injury all the time. One second you're Bo Jackson running for a TD on Monday night football and one of the biggest stars in the NFL with huge endorsement deals. Next second you have an artificial hip and your career is over. Done.

And the team can always franchise the player in any case, as in Von's case, which means he won't reach FA anyway.

Ryan Clady suffered a lis franc injury and then tore up his knee. He missed 2 seasons and was limited in one other. The minute the Broncos no longer owed him a bunch of guaranteed money they cut him loose. Zero loyalty.

Playing without guaranteed money is like playing with a hand-grenade that can go off at any minute. So, yes any player can be signed a year before his deal expires. And for less money. I gave you six examples from the Seahawks, but it's the normal practice in the NFL for EVERY Team.

The player gives up some money he could win in FA for some security of having a long term guaranteed contract. The team runs some risk the player could be injured or underperform the contract, but gets cap relief and gets the player at a lower contract price.

If you don't understand the most elemental points about NFL contract negotiations I give up.

As JFK said "10% never get the word." And you are definitely one of that 10%.

Is it just in your makeup to be so damn condescending? Why do you post on a message board if you don't really want to have conversations with people? Take out the first line and the last two lines and that is how adults have a conversation. Those lines just make you look like a pompous ass that no one really wants to interact with.

[Cugel]

We routinely see young players try to maximize their earnings. Your presumption is based on faulty notions, Cugel.

Everyone tries to maximize their earnings. But, they don't voluntarily play out their contracts.

Do you really not know this? Most times the team, not the player will refuse to re-do deals until they expire. That's because the team often thinks it can up grade a certain position. And even if not, there are lots of players who want NFL jobs and not many openings. The players are insecure. They normally can't get more money by holding out.

IF a team offers them guaranteed money they will normally jump at the chance because it gives them security.

The only players who can even think about playing out their deal would be super-stars with established value. And even they are running a huge risk if they play without a long-term deal.

IF Von Miller had torn up his knee in the SB what would his contract demand be right now? Sure as hell not $20M a year. One knee injury at the wrong time could cost him everything.

[Poet]

Everyone has known that von Miller is a top flight defensive player. He's arguably the most talented player in the league and I'd say he is the most talented defender in the league. His production is absurdly high, especially when you consider his ability to cover and stuff the run, as well as his ability to do all of these things in multiple defensive fronts and positions. Or, in other words, he's been on the first ballot HoF trajectory for a long, long time now. It's dubious to just claim -with little backing- that he would have just signed a contract. What NFL history tells us is that the elite players demand elite contracts. And with respect to Houston, he's probably a worse pass rusher than VM, and easily a weaker player in every other aspect of defense. It's like comparing a 15 dollar hamburger to an eighty dollar steak. They're not the same.

Everyone, for years, has known that Von Miller was going to command a contract that was the highest in the league for a defensive player. Everyone. That includes Von Miller and his agent.

[MOtorboat]

Most NFL players whose careers end early due to injury do NOT ever get a huge payday. But, such players are obscure because nobody remembers them.

Von Miller and his agent did NOT "play it out." The Broncos did not offer them a deal in July 2015. The team was not required to re-negotiate. Miller was under contract for 2015 and they had the franchise tag ready for 2016.

The team, not Miller preferred to wait. You continue to be dead wrong about everything.

Everyone knew what was coming, except apparently you. Too bad.

http://www.denverpost.com/2015/07/24/market-set-in-von-millers-upcoming-contract-talks-with-broncos/

[Cugel]

Is it just in your makeup to be so damn condescending? Why do you post on a message board if you don't really want to have conversations with people? Take out the first line and the last two lines and that is how adults have a conversation. Those lines just make you look like a pompous ass that no one really wants to interact with.

I'm sorry GEM but I get infuriated when people insult me constantly for pointing out obvious points that are widely known and commented on by NFL experts. And because I've been an attorney doing contract negotiations for 25 years and somebody tells me I know nothing about my field. I've been dragged through the wringer on this by people who flat don't know what they are talking about and never do any research to find out, yet blindly insist they are right.

I make an innocent comment and get flamed for it. So, yes, that makes me mad sometimes. But don't worry. You can all tell me how wrong I am. I'm signing off.

[Cugel]

Everyone knew what was coming, except apparently you. Too bad.

http://www.denverpost.com/2015/07/24/market-set-in-von-millers-upcoming-contract-talks-with-broncos/

Amazing. You just proved my point and don't even know it.


Von Miller’s future became clearer — and much brighter — July 15. He didn’t sign a new contract. He wasn’t offered a new contract.

Miller didn't sign last year because he wasn't offered a deal last year. JUST LIKE I SAID. It wasn't some brilliant strategy by Miller's agent. IT was a decision by the team.


“The reason players don’t want that is they’re not executives working in an office,” said longtime agent Leigh Steinberg. “A player who is franchised could suffer a career-ending injury and be out of luck.”

What have I just been saying? Jesus.

[BroncoJoe]

An attorney. Makes sense now.

PS - no offense intended to Von Kinger.

[Poet]

Everyone tries to maximize their earnings. But, they don't voluntarily play out their contracts.

Do you really not know this? Most times the team, not the player will refuse to re-do deals until they expire. That's because the team often thinks it can up grade a certain position. And even if not, there are lots of players who want NFL jobs and not many openings. The players are insecure. They normally can't get more money by holding out.

IF a team offers them guaranteed money they will normally jump at the chance because it gives them security.

The only players who can even think about playing out their deal would be super-stars with established value. And even they are running a huge risk if they play without a long-term deal.

IF Von Miller had torn up his knee in the SB what would his contract demand be right now? Sure as hell not $20M a year. One knee injury at the wrong time could cost him everything.

Maximizing your earnings often goes hand in hand with playing out your contract because it lets you get tagged for maximum dollars for a year and then seek the free market. Often times the tag amount is so high that a team cannot really afford the player, even for a year.

The second paragraph does not apply to Von Miller because there's no one who fulfills his role better. The next step would be to find a decent replacement...there ain't one right now available.

This isn't a normal circumstance. Even if we are to accept your premise, it's not applicable to THIS case because this isn't a normal situation because Von Miller isn't in a normal situation, nor is he a normal player.

These players often run that risk because teams will often give them big money even if the player is injured. Geno Atkins comes to mind. Furthermore, it's a risk they take, regardless of it is is logical or not.

[MOtorboat]

Amazing. You just proved my point and don't even know it.


Miller didn't sign last year because he wasn't offered a deal last year. JUST LIKE I SAID. It wasn't some brilliant strategy by Miller's agent. IT was a decision by the team.


What have I just been saying? Jesus.

You've been saying they could have signed him for cheaper and everyone knows you're full of shit.

[GEM]

I'm sorry GEM but I get infuriated when people insult me constantly for pointing out obvious points that are widely known and commented on by NFL experts. And because I've been an attorney doing contract negotiations for 25 years and somebody tells me I know nothing about my field. I've been dragged through the wringer on this by people who flat don't know what they are talking about and never do any research to find out, yet blindly insist they are right.

I make an innocent comment and get flamed for it. So, yes, that makes me mad sometimes. But don't worry. You can all tell me how wrong I am. I'm signing off.

You could easily post your opinions without the condescending comments. That's what message boards are for. Posting back and forth, having conversations. You feel you are right, others feel they are...it's all opinions. No reason to talk so negatively to each other. Perhaps the reason you get people talking to you in such a manner is it's just expected that you are going to be condescending, because you are most of the time. Makes it hard to read your posts a lot of the time. I think you have valuable points for the conversations, but it often gets lost in the negative snipes. Just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

[MOtorboat]

You know who also played out their contract and got big contracts out of it? Demaryius Thomas and Justin Houston. The latter of whom is who Cugel wanted the Broncos to base their contract offer to Miller on.

[Poet]

So the team doesn't offer Von Miller a contract - that doesn't mean that Von Miller would have signed it. As NTL pointed out, maybe there are reasons why they didn't offer it to him -injury, drug use, coaches wanting to see one more year out of him, all kinds of factors - but that doesn't mean Von Miller is going to sign it. In fact, maybe they didn't offer him a deal because they knew he wouldn't play ball. Cugel, your position seems to rest on very rigid assumptions that HAVE to be linear in order for you to be right.

In regards to your comment about "do you really not know this," sure brother. You got me. You got the Kinger. ;)

[NightTrainLayne]

So the team doesn't offer Von Miller a contract - that doesn't mean that Von Miller would have signed it. As NTL pointed out, maybe there are reasons why they didn't offer it to him -injury, drug use, coaches wanting to see one more year out of him, all kinds of factors - but that doesn't mean Von Miller is going to sign it. In fact, maybe they didn't offer him a deal because they knew he wouldn't play ball. Cugel, your position seems to rest on very rigid assumptions that HAVE to be linear in order for you to be right.

In regards to your comment about "do you really not know this," sure brother. You got me. You got the Kinger. ;)

Exactly. There are lots of conversations, including back-channel conversations that take place before an actual offer is made. It's certainly conceivable, if not likely, that the Broncos made informal offers, or "opened negotiations", and realized that a deal could not be had on terms that would have been better than playing out the contract.

To think that didn't happen at all is inconceivable.

[Poet]

Exactly. There are lots of conversations, including back-channel conversations that take place before an actual offer is made. It's certainly conceivable, if not likely, that the Broncos made informal offers, or "opened negotiations", and realized that a deal could not be had on terms that would have been better than playing out the contract.

To think that didn't happen at all is inconceivable.

The entire situation of a contract appears at least to me -and I am not as versed in these things as several other posters- to be situational. I can make a long list of stars who got mega-deals in a lot of different ways. Suh got his after not being tagged and hitting free agency. Norman got his from being tagged and then untagged and hitting free agency. A lot of QB's get theirs via extensions that essentially give them a bunch of guaranteed dollars through not just the guarantee, but in signing bonuses -these extensions often come as the last deal's string of guaranteed dollars is about to expire- and we can point to Brady and Rodgers for that. But Flacco got a huge deal after playing out his final year. Watt got a huge extension that really was just a mega-deal, Revis fought his entire career to make 18-20 million a year.

One of several constants, though, is that we see guys like Von Miller go to get the biggest bucks they can. That often means not taking an extension that would pay a lot, even in guaranteed dollars, because they can and will get more. That means the assumption that Von Miller would just take it is simply unfounded. And it is.

[Valar Morghulis]

I do agree that we should try to lock lynchpin players up early though. Sanders is a good example of someone I hope we reward with some security earlier than next season. 3 years, 45 mil with 25 mil guaranteed. Boom

[Rick]

Is it just in your makeup to be so damn condescending? Why do you post on a message board if you don't really want to have conversations with people? Take out the first line and the last two lines and that is how adults have a conversation. Those lines just make you look like a pompous ass that no one really wants to interact with.

I would high five you more than one but can only do it one per post :(

[Joel]

I do agree that we should try to lock lynchpin players up early though. Sanders is a good example of someone I hope we reward with some security earlier than next season. 3 years, 45 mil with 25 mil guaranteed. Boom
I fear it may be too late. Granted, I tend to be a "glass half empty" kind of guy so unexpected stuff doesn't bite me in the butt. But Cugel has a valid point (however expressed) that we have a history of waiting till the last minute to re-sign guys, then either franchising them (Clady, DT, Von) or losing them altogether (though Doom was something of a special case because he WAS under contract, albeit an idiotic one we couldn't honor even if inclined.)

Waiting till the FINAL year of a contract is too late, because by then players know they can reject all offers and either get franchised or leave in FA at the end of the season: Either way, it's a HUGE payday—probably the ONLY one they'll EVER get, because they're coming off a compulsory draft deal now and will be at or near 30 when the next one ends. Re-signing in THOSE conditions financially screws their WHOLE CAREER.

Since many players and ALL agents are college graduates, none are stupid or suicidal enough to do that.

Also recall that (excepting unique events like the un-capped season and subsequent CBAs new rookie cap) EVERY positions market value significantly rises EVERY year. Waiting even a SINGLE year to re-sign a player pushes his cap hit correspondingly higher. Wait MULTIPLE seasons while a guy's playing out his final contract year as his agent refuses to return your calls then you franchise him for AT LEAST one year, and he'll eventually cost tens of millions more.

Our ABSURDLY impractical contract with Doom? $61½M for 6 years: Roughly HALF the offer Von just rejected out of hand. We can say Doom was no SB MVP, but he got that after a 17-sack All Pro season; the big difference is that was 2010, not 2016.

Extend contracts the PENULTIMATE season, when a guy still has incentive to re-sign rather than "play for a big payday" his FINAL contract year and GET it, at the expense of either your cap or roster. Especially since most such players are young stars on capped rookie deals: Delaying extensions reduces the risk of a big cap hit for a bust, but each year they learn, grow and prove themselves on the national stage inflates demand for them, and thus their price.

Let's be real, too: Von was never one of those mid-1st round reaches as likely to bust as boom, so we've always pretty much known we'd want to retain him for SOME price. Again, IF we know that, what's gained by delaying a new contract? -$20-30M over that contracts life? Neither starting 2013 with a pot suspension nor ending it with an ACL tear were career-ending, only value-reducing.

ALL of 2013 was filled with talk about how much lifetime cash Von cost himself (check the BF archives.) So imagine if we HAD re-signed him some time in 2014, instead of waiting for 2015, when he 1) exited the league drug protocol, 2) OWNED the postseason and 3) won SB MVP. He might be holding out for more money now ala Doom, but would be under contract until 2018-19, at a VERY affordable price for the peak years of his career.

Contract negotiations are all about leverage, and FA SB MVPs have ALL of it; their team, NONE. Worst case scenario, a 27-year-old in the best shape of his life takes the average of the BIGGEST 5 contracts for his position, then waits for 31 other teams to call. I mean, there's a reason contracts exist. ;) Cugel's right about one thing: Seattle re-signed Wilson during his final contract TC because they knew they ALWAYS would eventually, so waiting could change NOTHING but the final cap hit.

[Joel]

Just to be clear, Von's not a one-off: He simply succeeds Clady and DT as the most flagrant example. Next year it'll probably be Sanders (who similarly has ZERO incentive to do an extension this year, especially if we can't re-sign Von: Can't tag 'em both!) People are STILL laughing at us for paying CJ $4M/yr because we "tendered" him for basically nothing but matching rights, just so we could ALSO do a cheap tender on Marshall—who STILL hasn't signed it.

Elway clearly expects even the best player on the team to take a hometown discount. Even though his own refusal to do so cost us a draft pick his final year.

[Magnificent Seven]

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter Jun 11
Upset with contract negotiations, Von Miller cropped out John Elway from Friday's Instagram post:

9104

[Magnificent Seven]

It is getting ugly between Elway and Miller.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

KUSA - Consider the Super Bowl 50 ring ceremony a free-agent recruiting visit between Von Miller and the Denver Broncos.

Miller’s free-agent status was taken away by the “exclusive” franchise designation. But a contract is still up for negotiation. Bargaining became contentious last week when the Broncos’ offer and a minicamp deadline placed on negotiations became public.

Perhaps, some icy feelings have thawed. According to sources, Broncos general manager John Elway pulled Miller aside during the team party Sunday night at (soon-to-be-renamed) Sports Authority Field at Mile High. The contents of their conversation are not known, but the fact they didn’t turn away from each other with cold shoulders has to be a positive sign.

Broncos Ring of Famer and Pro Football Hall of Famer Shannon Sharpe stayed true to his personality that believes every tense situation can be bludgeoned with humor. Sharpe passed around a plate asking for money to help pay Miller’s contract. The biggest contribution was made by former Broncos receiver great Rod Smith. Peyton Manning and DeMarcus Ware also pitched in big dollars.

There was another moment during the ring ceremony when the Broncos ran out of keys to unlock their Super Bowl ring boxes.

“No need to be alarmed,’’ Sharpe told the crowd. “What happened everybody was we ran out of money because we’ve got to pay Von.’’

rest - http://www.9news.com/sports/john-elway-von-miller-chat-during-ring-ceremony/242523203

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from same article:


In an interview with 9NEWS following the ring ceremony Sunday night, Miller talked about the Broncos in the present tense. A good sign.

There has been stress while missing the team’s offseason workout and practice program in light of his contract situation because football is the basis of his life’s routine. As he was during the team’s White House visit Monday, Miller’s spirits were buoyed by hanging around his teammates again Sunday evening at the stadium.

“That’s when I feel normal,’’ Miller said. “When I’m with T.J. (Ward), Aqib (Talib) and Bradley (Roby) and Kayvon (Webster) and Shane Ray and all these guys that’s when I feel normal. Coming back here at the locker room at the facility, it’s an incredible feeling. You just want to get back to work and do it over and over and over again. We all know how tough it is to get here. But we all know what it feels like. We all know what it looks like. And I feel like we can duplicate that.’’

http://www.9news.com/sports/john-elway-von-miller-chat-during-ring-ceremony/242523203

[GEM]

It is getting ugly between Elway and Miller.

That was prior to the ring ceremony. 9News has an article today that states that Elway and Miller spoke to each other at the ring ceremony. Hoping that means there are still chances to get the deal done. Posturing on Miller's part, one I don't particularly like.

[VonDoom]

Eagles just signed Fletcher Cox to an extension - 6 years, $103 million. $63 million guaranteed being reported but there's no way that's fully guaranteed.

Anyway, this will affect the Von negotiations

[Poet]

Fletcher Cox from the Eagles just got 63 million dollars guaranteed. That's the new standard that must be met.

[ShaneFalco]

seriously.

[aberdien]

Von is about to be a very happy man.

[Northman]

Von is about to be a very happy man.

Maybe from another team. lol

[Northman]

Fletcher Cox from the Eagles just got 63 million dollars guaranteed. That's the new standard that must be met.

Von is probably going to be looking now around $120 mil with $70 mil guaranteed.

[Poet]

**** the Iggles.

[pnbronco]

Eagles just signed Fletcher Cox to an extension - 6 years, $103 million. $63 million guaranteed being reported but there's no way that's fully guaranteed.

Anyway, this will affect the Von negotiations

When I heard that I wondered the same thing. They need to just get it done....waiting seems to only be driving the amount up, IMO.

[atwater27]

I am almost getting to the point where I am questioning whether it is a sound move to pay an outside linebacker like Aaron Rodgers. Thinking of the big picture here, we are loaded with good young passrushers at his position. I can see Elway's logic here. Von better realize he is not going to take us to the cleaners.

[Poet]

I am almost getting to the point where I am questioning whether it is a sound move to pay an outside linebacker like Aaron Rodgers. Thinking of the big picture here, we are loaded with good young passrushers at his position. I can see Elway's logic here. Von better realize he is not going to take us to the cleaners.

But the OLB plays the run at a high level, can cover, and can rush the passer from the 4-3 as an OLB and a DE, and is a god at 3-4 OLB.

[Northman]

I actually dont want to lose Von, technically speaking Ray Lewis was the franchise player for the Ravens for a very long time and he wasnt the QB. Outside of Von i really dont think we have "that" franchise guy on here. Manning is gone so the only logical step is Von. However, Denver doesnt have the luxury of a lot of extra money so how much do they sacrifice in terms of other team needs to get Von locked in? Denver is in a very bad situation right now with money and it sucks.

[Poet]

I actually dont want to lose Von, technically speaking Ray Lewis was the franchise player for the Ravens for a very long time and he wasnt the QB. Outside of Von i really dont think we have "that" franchise guy on here. Manning is gone so the only logical step is Von. However, Denver doesnt have the luxury of a lot of extra money so how much do they sacrifice in terms of other team needs to get Von locked in? Denver is in a very bad situation right now with money and it sucks.

Von Miller is what Champ was for the franchise so I see what you're saying.

[aberdien]

New Von Miller instagram post:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGnUqCim0FK/

[atwater27]

But the OLB plays the run at a high level, can cover, and can rush the passer from the 4-3 as an OLB and a DE, and is a god at 3-4 OLB.

Im not saying its not a tough situation, but if I was calling the shots, sinking that much money and cap into one non QB when I have some promising young depth at that position would give me serious pause. If not menopause.

[Poet]

New Von Miller instagram post:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGnUqCim0FK/

Put some respek on my contract.

[BroncoBuckeye73]

I don't think this will change the parameters of the deal we offered Von overall much but it will effect the amount of first 3 year guaranteed money which seems to be the main sticking point. We will have to go over that 60 million guarantee for sure but will the overall money jump up I don't think so.

[atwater27]

New Von Miller instagram post:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGnUqCim0FK/

not good

[NightTrainLayne]

New Von Miller instagram post:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGnUqCim0FK/

I need closed captioning for the chronically unhip. What does it mean? Who is it?

[Poet]

Im not saying its not a tough situation, but if I was calling the shots, sinking that much money and cap into one non QB when I have some promising young depth at that position would give me serious pause. If not menopause.

Make it rain.

[aberdien]

I need closed captioning for the chronically unhip. What does it mean? Who is it?

Trigger Warning: It is rap music.


QJQtXeUEH6s

[aberdien]

I need closed captioning for the chronically unhip. What does it mean? Who is it?

Also:

Birdman Walked Out of His Breakfast Club Interview Because He Didn’t Get Enough ‘Respek’
http://www.vulture.com/2016/04/birdman-walked-out-of-breakfast-club-interview.html

[NightTrainLayne]

So Von posted a music video on an online media-based social network?

Do I have to watch to whole video to get it? Don't people post videos on Instagram all the time? Could we possibly we reading too much into a social media post?

[Poet]

So Von posted a music video on an online media-based social network?

Do I have to watch to whole video to get it? Don't people post videos on Instagram all the time? Could we possibly we reading too much into a social media post?

It's a message, NTL. I hate to be the guy to tell you that, because I tend to be patient over deals and what not, but you just gotta hope that he's having some fun and trolling us.

[aberdien]

So Von posted a music video on an online media-based social network?

Do I have to watch to whole video to get it? Don't people post videos on Instagram all the time? Could we possibly we reading too much into a social media post?

The picture is a popular meme, and by posting it he's essentially saying that he is not getting any respect. That's all you need to know. It is not a coincidence.

[Poet]

The picture is a popular meme, and by posting it he's essentially saying that he is not getting any respect. That's all you need to know. It is not a coincidence.

Hold me.

[Northman]

Its not a coincidence, just like him editing out John from the other picture wasnt coincidence.

[pnbronco]

I need closed captioning for the chronically unhip. What does it mean? Who is it?

I'm so glad I'm not the only one thinking WTH....I don't understand...

[pnbronco]

The picture is a popular meme, and by posting it he's essentially saying that he is not getting any respect. That's all you need to know. It is not a coincidence.

Thanks aberdien and well dang it!

[VonDoom]

Okay, the Cox contract details are out:


Per a source with knowledge of the contract, a whopping $55.549 million will be fully guaranteed by March of 2017. At signing, $36.299 million in fully guaranteed.

The deal breaks down like this:

1. $26 million signing bonus;

2. $1.299 million fully-guaranteed base salary in 2016;

3. $6 million option bonus due in 2017, fully guaranteed;

4. $3 million fully-guaranteed base salary in 2017;

5. $11.5 million base salary for 2018, guaranteed for injury only at signing but fully guaranteed in March 2017;

6. $15.6 million base salary for 2019, $15.5 million of which is guaranteed for injury only at signing but $7.75 million becomes fully guaranteed in March 2017 and the other $7.75 million becomes fully guaranteed in March 2018;

7. $12.9 million base salary in 2020, plus a $1 million roster bonus due in March;

8. $15 million base salary in 2021, plus a $1 million roster bonus due in March;

9 $16.1 million base salary in 2022, plus a $1 million roster bonus due in March.

In all, it’s a six-year, $102.6 million extension, with a value at signing of $110.379 over seven years. $63.299 million is guaranteed for injury.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/06/13/fletcher-cox-will-have-55-549-million-fully-guaranteed-by-march-2017/

As always, $63 million guaranteed isn't really fully guaranteed - $36.3 million is. But given that the injury guarantee converts very early, it muddies the waters a bit. PFT is treating it like $55.55 million "fully" guaranteed nine months from now, so being conservative, let's just consider that fully guaranteed.

Honestly, that probably doesn't change the Von potential contract that much. We kind of figured we'd need to fully guarantee his third year, putting it at about $57 million guaranteed. Might need to go up a bit now, since Philly beat us to the punch, but again, I don't see it as a deal breaker. The total money and AAV are still higher in Von's hypothetical deal than Cox's, so it's not like this reset the market.

Also, we were probably using Justin Houston's deal as a baseline before this, which I believe had $52.5 million fully guaranteed. So again, I think this just slightly bumps it up. It shouldn't ruin the negotiations, but I'd like to see them really get to work and get this done so it's not hanging over us all season.

[Tned]

That was prior to the ring ceremony. 9News has an article today that states that Elway and Miller spoke to each other at the ring ceremony. Hoping that means there are still chances to get the deal done. Posturing on Miller's part, one I don't particularly like.

Yep, " According to sources, Broncos general manager John Elway pulled Miller aside during the team party Sunday night" and an alert reporter with bat like hearing said he heard Elway said, "Von, come on, cropping me out of a photo? If you had trashed me in the press, I get it. If you had told the President I'm a jerk, I get it. If you had egged my Kia, I get it. But dude, to cut me out and post it on Instagram? Ya killin me dog!"

[Simple Jaded]

Oh! Elway and Miller talked at ceremony alright. Yes they did.

Elway can't win this, he needs to choke on his pride before he Jsoh McDaniels this ******* thing.

[Joel]

When I heard that I wondered the same thing. They need to just get it done....waiting seems to only be driving the amount up, IMO.
Always does, and can hardly do otherwise; dunno why we insist on doing it over and over again with all our best players.

[atwater27]

Oh! Elway and Miller talked at ceremony alright. Yes they did.

Elway can't win this, he needs to choke on his pride before he Jsoh McDaniels this ******* thing.

Did you just compare Elway with McDaniels? That is grounds for a permaban.

[GEM]

It seems Von and Elway are now in a pissing match, neither side wanting to give up much cause it just might hurt their pride. Get the **** over yourselves, both of you. Come to some agreement that works for both sides and get his ass into camp. Enough pissing matches. Von out performed the #1 pick and every other pick of that draft, he brought us what he was brought here to do. Guarantee some more funds, pay the man what he's EARNED and be done with this shit. You don't nickle and dime your best talent. Not if you expect to have longevity.

[BroncoWave]

How is Elway involved in any sort of pissing match? This is how he handles every single contract negotiation. It's worked out pretty well for him so far. What has he done that's worthy of criticism? If it gets to the point where we lose Von then, sure, criticize him then. But we are still a LONG way away from that.

[Northman]

As Wave says that Von is packing his bags in a surprise trade garnered by Elway. lol

[BroncoWave]

As Wave says that Von is packing his bags in a surprise trade garnered by Elway. lol

Hey if the price is right, no player is untradeable. It would suck to lose Von, but if some shitty team wanted to give us like 3 first rounders for him, it would be hard to say no, especially if getting a deal done with him looked bleak.

[GEM]

How is Elway involved in any sort of pissing match? This is how he handles every single contract negotiation. It's worked out pretty well for him so far. What has he done that's worthy of criticism? If it gets to the point where we lose Von then, sure, criticize him then. But we are still a LONG way away from that.

I guess you missed the part where I said both of them. The stage is set on what his guaranteed money needs to look like to make the deal. Offering less than what others have gotten who aren't as good as Von is a pissing match. Just seeing if he'd be dumb enough to take less. Von isn't taking less, that's obvious. So stop the games, come to terms and get him into camp.

It has worked out well for him, but he needs to be practical as to what is reality. Reality is Von isn't going to take a hometown discount. Reality is Von has earned his contract. Reality is he's the face of your franchise. Raise your stakes and get it done.

[BroncoWave]

I guess you missed the part where I said both of them. The stage is set on what his guaranteed money needs to look like to make the deal. Offering less than what others have gotten who aren't as good as Von is a pissing match. Just seeing if he'd be dumb enough to take less. Von isn't taking less, that's obvious. So stop the games, come to terms and get him into camp.

It has worked out well for him, but he needs to be practical as to what is reality. Reality is Von isn't going to take a hometown discount. Reality is Von has earned his contract. Reality is he's the face of your franchise. Raise your stakes and get it done.

Yes, I saw where you said both of them. And I was questioning why you think Elway is involved in the pissing match. We can already see Von is doing it, which is why I did not question you on that part.

I guess I don't see where Elway has done anything that could constitute a pissing match. He's simply handling this negotiation like he handles all of them. And I can't really say I fault him for it.

[GEM]

Yes, I saw where you said both of them. And I was questioning why you think Elway is involved in the pissing match. We can already see Von is doing it, which is why I did not question you on that part.

I guess I don't see where Elway has done anything that could constitute a pissing match. He's simply handling this negotiation like he handles all of them. And I can't really say I fault him for it.

I appreciate that he doesn't let emotion get in there and tries to do right by the Broncos and for the team, but Von is the face of the Broncos, he brought us the Super Bowl. He's turned himself around and earned his contract.

The pissing match, for me, is he's stuck his feet in the sand and appears to not be moving. It won't get the deal done, after all the posturing, Von isn't going to come down to Elways' deal. Elway is going to have to come up to get the deal done and it appears, he isn't willing to do so.

[BroncoWave]

I appreciate that he doesn't let emotion get in there and tries to do right by the Broncos and for the team, but Von is the face of the Broncos, he brought us the Super Bowl. He's turned himself around and earned his contract.

The pissing match, for me, is he's stuck his feet in the sand and appears to not be moving. It won't get the deal done, after all the posturing, Von isn't going to come down to Elways' deal. Elway is going to have to come up to get the deal done and it appears, he isn't willing to do so.

I think he will get the deal done. But the criticism of Elway will certainly become more fair if it doesn't happen.

[GEM]

I think he will get the deal done. But the criticism of Elway will certainly become more fair if it doesn't happen.

I'm starting to get pissy about the whole thing. If we lose Von, I'm going to punch some puppies or something. :mad:

[Davii]

I'm starting to get pissy about the whole thing. If we lose Von, I'm going to punch some puppies or something. :mad:

Leave the puppies out of this!

[NightTrainLayne]

We're not going to lose Von.

Both sides are simply using the leverage they have to get the best deal. Elway has some very powerful negotiating leverage with the franchise tag.

I expect at this point that a deal won't get done until we get to late August. Von will hold out of training camp etc., in order to maximize his leverage.

However, Von will either play under the tag, or sign a deal before sitting out a significant portion of the season. The near $1 million/week he loses in sitting out can never be recouped.

[VonDoom]

We're not going to lose Von.

Both sides are simply using the leverage they have to get the best deal. Elway has some very powerful negotiating leverage with the franchise tag.

I expect at this point that a deal won't get done until we get to late August. Von will hold out of training camp etc., in order to maximize his leverage.

However, Von will either play under the tag, or sign a deal before sitting out a significant portion of the season. The near $1 million/week he loses in sitting out can never be recouped.

July 15 is the deadline to sign tagged players to long term deals. If no deal is reached, they literally can't negotiate until next offseason (which is yet another reason why I think Von won't sit out - they can't give him a better deal once the season starts, so sitting out only loses him money).

[MOtorboat]

The guaranteed money in the deal has to reach or exceed $63 million. The Broncos have no real choice on this matter at this point.

[Poet]

Offer him 65 million gtd and be done with it. Neither party benefits from the other's departure.

[Valar Morghulis]

Offer him 65 million gtd and be done with it. Neither party benefits from the other's departure.

I agree but i also think if he will not sign for less than 70 - we should seriously look at moving on.

Controversial, i know, but when we are talking that much money for one player - why would he get pissy over a few mil, when that few mil is the difference between a franchise being able to sign other players where that extra couple of mill will really make a differnce (im talking about sanders and marshall for example)

125 mil. 6 years. 65 guarenteed. Job done.

The difference between offering Sanders 9 or 13 million a year is huge, same with marshall. But if Von handcuffs us to a huge 70 mil plus contract, we can good bye to all of those second tier players

[Poet]

I think Sanders is gone because someone's going to pay him like he's Julio Jones or Dez Bryant.

[Davii]

I think Sanders is gone because someone's going to pay him like he's Julio Jones or Dez Bryant.

I don't know. He truly seems like one of those guys who MEANS it when he says he wants to retire a Bronco. I could be wrong, but he seems genuine to me. If the money is close I think he stays. I think this is why John wants to deal with him and Marshall now, he knows if they make it to free agency someone out there will throw silly money around.

[Northman]

I agree but i also think if he will not sign for less than 70 - we should seriously look at moving on.

Controversial, i know, but when we are talking that much money for one player - why would he get pissy over a few mil, when that few mil is the difference between a franchise being able to sign other players where that extra couple of mill will really make a differnce (im talking about sanders and marshall for example)

125 mil. 6 years. 65 guarenteed. Job done.

The difference between offering Sanders 9 or 13 million a year is huge, same with marshall. But if Von handcuffs us to a huge 70 mil plus contract, we can good bye to all of those second tier players

Definitely depends on how far he wants to push it. Im ok around the $60-65 range but if he wants more than that we should definitely shop him around.

[NightTrainLayne]

July 15 is the deadline to sign tagged players to long term deals. If no deal is reached, they literally can't negotiate until next offseason (which is yet another reason why I think Von won't sit out - they can't give him a better deal once the season starts, so sitting out only loses him money).

You're right. My memory isn't what it used to be.

Clady was signed to his deal July 14th. I think I'll just see where we're at July 15th.

[BroncoJoe]

Demaryius Thomas signed on the 15th after being franchised, and 45 minutes after Dez Bryant signed his contract.

[The Glue Factory]

I'm starting to get pissy about the whole thing. If we lose Von, I'm going to punch some puppies or something. :mad:


How about seal clubbing?

[Northman]

How about seal clubbing?

Leave that to Cugel.

[Simple Jaded]

Did you just compare Elway with McDaniels? That is grounds for a permaban.

You think I'm happy about it?

All I can say is, wait, just wait. Don't be shocked if Miller has played his last game in a Broncos uniform.

[Davii]

You think I'm happy about it?

All I can say is, wait, just wait. Don't be shocked if Miller has played his last game in a Broncos uniform.

Not happening. He'll play on the tag if they can't agree.

[atwater27]

You think I'm happy about it?

All I can say is, wait, just wait. Don't be shocked if Miller has played his last game in a Broncos uniform.

If it is it will be his fault for thinking an outside linebacker is the end all be all building block for a franchise.

[Simple Jaded]

If it is it will be his fault for thinking an outside linebacker is the end all be all building block for a franchise.

Clearly youve put a lot of thought into this. I guess if we were talking about an aging/way past his prime FS it might be Elways fault.

[Simple Jaded]

Not happening. He'll play on the tag if they can't agree.

Most likely.

[OrangeHoof]

I want Miller signed but I will remind you we didn't invest a first-round draft choice last year just to give him a megaphone and pom poms. I know he's Ware's eventual replacement but he's also Plan B if we can't get Miller under contract. In fact, if we can't sign him, I'd like to know how many 1st round picks somebody will offer to get him. Cleveland and Tennessee have a stockpile of draft picks. Ray had his get-acquainted year. Now we can find out what we really drafted.

Still, I want us to get a deal done because Von is a special player but moving on without him won't be as painful as some folks think.

[Simple Jaded]

Nobody thinks Ray is Miller's replacement, he's not that guy.

[Simple Jaded]

Talib and Miller, two guys the Broncos can just "replace" without much pain, that doesn't even make sense on paper but when you consider that lockerroom you're even further from the truth.

Let's not waste brain cells on arguing two players at the top of their position, Miller has HoF talent ffs.

5 months ago the prevailing narrative was keeping this defense together, now it seems we're content with the kind of defense they had in the Fox era.

Not me, **** that noise.

[Poet]

Shane Ray isn't going to be the same type of defender against the run or in coverage. Honestly he could pan out to be an elite pass rusher and still be a worse pass rusher than Von Miller. Von Miller is the jack of all trades on the defense and arguably the team's most important player. He's just one guy, but he's the guy.

[Northman]

Talib and Miller, two guys the Broncos can just "replace" without much pain, that doesn't even make sense on paper but when you consider that lockerroom you're even further from the truth.

Let's not waste brain cells on arguing two players at the top of their position, Miller has HoF talent ffs.

5 months ago the prevailing narrative was keeping this defense together, now it seems we're content with the kind of defense they had in the Fox era.

Not me, **** that noise.

I wouldnt be quite that dramatic. I think the general concern is how much Denver pays to Miller and how it affects the rest of the team. Miller is the franchise player but Denver doesnt have the kind of cap luxury many other teams have to dedicate to him so they do have to be careful on how much the put into him. No one has said that he is a scrub and that they dont want him, but this team will be pretty useless if all the money is wrapped up in one guy surrounded by support players and scrubs. They will need to get some other playmakers on this team whether its this year or the next couple.

[The Glue Factory]

Leave that to Cugel.


Maybe a chainsaw watch is in order? :scared:

[Simple Jaded]

I wouldnt be quite that dramatic. I think the general concern is how much Denver pays to Miller and how it affects the rest of the team. Miller is the franchise player but Denver doesnt have the kind of cap luxury many other teams have to dedicate to him so they do have to be careful on how much the put into him. No one has said that he is a scrub and that they dont want him, but this team will be pretty useless if all the money is wrapped up in one guy surrounded by support players and scrubs. They will need to get some other playmakers on this team whether its this year or the next couple.

I'm getting the opposite impression, that Miller is legit but "**** it, we got Shane Ray". Which is complete bullshit.

As for cap space, they are very healthy moving forward and any contract with Miller could actually lower his 2016 cap number.

The problem I'm beginning to see with the cap is the salary floor, not the salary cap, cause if you're not going to pony up for Miller you're not going to have much left to spend it on. Kreckman and Nalen had a guest that quoted an anonymous FO exec as saying perception around that league is that "basically the Broncos approach to contract negotiations is to serve up shit sandwiches".

From what I'm hearing this is getting ugly.

[JPPT1974]

Really Miller has his own reasons we do not know yet on turning all of that money down. It just ain't money. It is about getting a promise is a promise from Elway it seems.

[Simple Jaded]

oydv8lFPeIY

[NightTrainLayne]

I'm getting the opposite impression, that Miller is legit but "**** it, we got Shane Ray". Which is complete bullshit.

As for cap space, they are very healthy moving forward and any contract with Miller could actually lower his 2016 cap number.

The problem I'm beginning to see with the cap is the salary floor, not the salary cap, cause if you're not going to pony up for Miller you're not going to have much left to spend it on. Kreckman and Nalen had a guest that quoted an anonymous FO exec as saying perception around that league is that "basically the Broncos approach to contract negotiations is to serve up shit sandwiches".

From what I'm hearing this is getting ugly.

LOL. An "anonymous FO Exec", who is part of the league that loves to poach top-notch talent from successful teams is running down the Broncos as serving up "shit sandwiches"

He couldn't possibly have an ulterior motive.

[Poet]

The shit sandwich thing seems strange when 1. Denver got an influx of talent from free agency in regards to Ware, Talib, Ward, et al. and 2. It takes a massive contract like the one Jax took to get a star from us 3. If other teams want to give away the sun and the moon on the first go then that's fine by me. :lol:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 22m

Talked briefly to #Broncos Emmanuel Sanders. He said no update on contract talks but remains hopeful a deal can be reached

[Tned]

Von Miller talking his contract, sitting out, wanting to be Bronco forever, but wanting the Broncos to feel the same way, etc.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quJK9MfuBjQ

[VonDoom]

Von Miller talking his contract, sitting out, wanting to be Bronco forever, but wanting the Broncos to feel the same way, etc.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quJK9MfuBjQ


In an interview with Chelsea Handler, Miller said he can’t see himself sitting out the 2016 season, nor can he see himself ending up on another team.

Asked if he might sit out this year, Miller answered, “No.”

Miller continued by noting that the deadline to come to terms on a long-term contract isn’t until July 15, which means there’s still time to get a deal done. And Miller can’t see himself leaving Denver.

“We still have a month. I just can’t see myself with another team,” Miller said.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/06/15/von-miller-i-cant-see-myself-sitting-out-or-leaving-denver/

[GEM]

I honestly believe what he is saying. I just want this deal to get done, I love, love, LOVE Von! He came to us at our lowest point and with the help of great teammates took us to one of our highest points. He's instrumental.

[Northman]

And we dont want Von with another team. Hopefully both sides can find an agreement that they can be happy with.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I don't understand all of this, but it has been stated that the Broncos do not have a whole bunch of money left. Does guaranteed money come out of another pot? If not, where will they get the kind of money that it sounds like they will need to sign Von?

[Tned]

I don't understand all of this, but it has been stated that the Broncos do not have a whole bunch of money left. Does guaranteed money come out of another pot? If not, where will they get the kind of money that it sounds like they will need to sign Von?

The guaranteed money in terms of cap will count in the given year. If it winds up being 60 million over the first three years, let's say 20 million is a signing bonus, then you would have the 20 spread over six years of the contract (for cap) and the remaining $40 counting this year and next, maybe 20 each year.

However, in addition to that, a silly rule that the CBA requires is that the team put ALL fully guaranteed money into escrow. So, it's both a cap issue and cash issue. If the Broncos guarantee $60 million of the contract, then the day they sign the contract (or shortly after that) they will have to write a check for $60 million and deposit it in an escrow account, even if it will be paid out to Von over three years.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

The guaranteed money in terms of cap will count in the given year. If it winds up being 60 million over the first three years, let's say 20 million is a signing bonus, then you would have the 20 spread over six years of the contract (for cap) and the remaining $40 counting this year and next, maybe 20 each year.

However, in addition to that, a silly rule that the CBA requires is that the team put ALL fully guaranteed money into escrow. So, it's both a cap issue and cash issue. If the Broncos guarantee $60 million of the contract, then the day they sign the contract (or shortly after that) they will have to write a check for $60 million and deposit it in an escrow account, even if it will be paid out to Von over three years.

OK - so then it looks like someone needs to start a Go Fund Me for the Broncos.

Seriously, with everything you stated, where will the Broncos get the money from to pay Von what it appears he wants? I read a few months ago that DT said he would be willing to restructure, but if he did, would that be enough to cover Von's contract?

[VonDoom]

OK - so then it looks like someone needs to start a Go Fund Me for the Broncos.

Seriously, with everything you stated, where will the Broncos get the money from to pay Von what it appears he wants? I read a few months ago that DT said he would be willing to restructure, but if he did, would that be enough to cover Von's contract?

Von is on the books right now for the $14+ million the tag costs. If he gets a deal in the $19+ range, a) they can do strange cap math to actually make his hit lower this year, if they really wanted and b) even if they balanced it out evenly, the difference isn't that great. We have $4.6 million in cap space currently, and let's say they cut Colquitt to save $3.25 million worth of space (which I believe is what it would be - can't look it up right now), we would be okay. Very tight, but okay. There's more room next year and too many variables before then to really start worrying about what it would look like in the future.

[Tned]

Von is on the books right now for the $14+ million the tag costs. If he gets a deal in the $19+ range, a) they can do strange cap math to actually make his hit lower this year, if they really wanted and b) even if they balanced it out evenly, the difference isn't that great. We have $4.6 million in cap space currently, and let's say they cut Colquitt to save $3.25 million worth of space (which I believe is what it would be - can't look it up right now), we would be okay. Very tight, but okay. There's more room next year and too many variables before then to really start worrying about what it would look like in the future.

There are two separate issues. One is the cap room, and I agree, they can make that work. The second is cash. The fact that 100% of fully guaranteed portions of contracts have to be put into Escrow. So, for instance, the Broncos have to put $15 million in Escrow to cover the Marshall contract they just signed, even though he's only getting $10 million right now. If Von Gets $65 million guaranteed over three years, the Broncos have to pay out all $65 million in cash immediately, some to Von directly and the rest in Escrow to protect the player in case the team goes bankrupt.

Now, that also means that some of their players 2016 salaries will be money that they put in escrow last year or the year before, but it is a fact that can't be overlooked. The Broncos aren't a big market, cash rich team, and they are a team that's owned by a trust (with Mr. Bowlen incapacitated) and we don't know what limits are on Joe Ellis in terms of his ability to borrow cash, etc.

This has been raised by local media as an issue the Broncos are facing.

[BroncoJoe]

Elway can front the Broncos the $60 million.

:D

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Elway can front the Broncos the $60 million.

:D

Or Peyton

[VonDoom]

There are two separate issues. One is the cap room, and I agree, they can make that work. The second is cash. The fact that 100% of fully guaranteed portions of contracts have to be put into Escrow. So, for instance, the Broncos have to put $15 million in Escrow to cover the Marshall contract they just signed, even though he's only getting $10 million right now. If Von Gets $65 million guaranteed over three years, the Broncos have to pay out all $65 million in cash immediately, some to Von directly and the rest in Escrow to protect the player in case the team goes bankrupt.

Now, that also means that some of their players 2016 salaries will be money that they put in escrow last year or the year before, but it is a fact that can't be overlooked. The Broncos aren't a big market, cash rich team, and they are a team that's owned by a trust (with Mr. Bowlen incapacitated) and we don't know what limits are on Joe Ellis in terms of his ability to borrow cash, etc.

This has been raised by local media as an issue the Broncos are facing.

This is all true, and I apologize if I misunderstood Carol's question. I assumed she was talking about cap space, since she brought up DT possibly restructuring. That would help us from a cap perspective but hurt us from a cash one, as I understand it, since we'd be converting salary to a bonus which would have to be paid right away.

From a cash perspective, you are correct. But we as fans are not privy to how much cash the Bowlens have available, so it's all just guesswork. I have to assume they know what they're doing, and that the money would be there for Von if they can agree on it. I wonder if they could actually use the Cox contract to their benefit - he has an injury only guarantee for 2018 that converts to fully guaranteed in 2017, but I imagine they wouldn't have to put that money in escrow yet. It's basically guaranteed as is, since there would be no easy way to get out of that deal before it converted. I wonder if Von would be willing to do the same.

[BroncoJoe]

I'm guessing the cash-strapped status of the Broncos is highly exaggerated. It's not just the Bowlen family trust - it's the Broncos organization as a whole.

Note the "I'm guessing" part. I'm also guessing that if the Broncos needed a $60 million loan, banks would be lining up. The NFL has been in the business of printing money for quite some time now.

[Tned]

This is all true, and I apologize if I misunderstood Carol's question. I assumed she was talking about cap space, since she brought up DT possibly restructuring. That would help us from a cap perspective but hurt us from a cash one, as I understand it, since we'd be converting salary to a bonus which would have to be paid right away.

From a cash perspective, you are correct. But we as fans are not privy to how much cash the Bowlens have available, so it's all just guesswork. I have to assume they know what they're doing, and that the money would be there for Von if they can agree on it. I wonder if they could actually use the Cox contract to their benefit - he has an injury only guarantee for 2018 that converts to fully guaranteed in 2017, but I imagine they wouldn't have to put that money in escrow yet. It's basically guaranteed as is, since there would be no easy way to get out of that deal before it converted. I wonder if Von would be willing to do the same.

Based on some of the articles I read, you are correct, that one of the reasons teams often make $X guaranteed if they are on the roster at the start of the league the following league year or after that, it's not only so they can possibly cut the player, but the money doesn't have to be escrowed until it becomes guaranteed.

So, if you have 2016-2017 guaranteed, then that money is paid into escrow now. Then, if you have year 2018 become guaranteed if Von is on the Roster June 1st of 2017, then it would be at that point that the 2018 guaranteed salary would have to be put in escrow.

[ShaneFalco]

Von Miller talking his contract, sitting out, wanting to be Bronco forever, but wanting the Broncos to feel the same way, etc.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quJK9MfuBjQ

love that guy, thanks for posting

[Slick]

I'm guessing the cash-strapped status of the Broncos is highly exaggerated. It's not just the Bowlen family trust - it's the Broncos organization as a whole.

Note the "I'm guessing" part. I'm also guessing that if the Broncos needed a $60 million loan, banks would be lining up. The NFL has been in the business of printing money for quite some time now.

I think there's some truth to the Bowlen's cash struggles. That's been talked about since Pat first bought the team. I remember my Mom talking about it when I was a kid. That he had to borrow a shitload of money to do it. He had the contacts to do so since he was in real estate.

That said, I'm sure just about any bank would approve a loan if Denver needed it.

[Poet]

I read an article about four years ago that talked about how the best investment in American money over the past thirty years -barring the internet- it was a NFL franchise. There's no way he could be broke. None.