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View Full Version : Apparently Denver wants to run the ball or something



G_Money
05-02-2016, 10:03 AM
Denver was 17th in rushing attempts and 17th in yards last year, with 1718 total. That doesn't sound bad until you realize that Denver was TRYING to run the ball, in fact built their offense around rushing, and still couldn't be consistent enough to be a chain-moving offense. They had 85 rushing first downs. The 1997 Broncos had 138, and 135 in 1998 as well. The Houston Texans in Kubiak's playoff years had 114 and 131.

For better or worse, Kubiak wants to run other teams to death. For this team, that's going to be better - nobody wants Sanchez or Lynch having to carry the offense around. The team still threw for almost 4000 yards and ranked higher in passing yards and attempts than in rushing. The passing game is going to have to be there, but the rushing attack in a Kubiak offense needs to carry the water as a top-5 unit, and Denver was nowhere close last year.

Injuries were part of the problem, but shoddy play was definitely another. Denver was 17th in adjusted line yards (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol), and 23rd when it came to getting stuffed in short yardage or tackled behind the line of scrimmage. Some of that was running into a stacked box because Manning couldn't take the top off the defense any more and teams wanted to make Oz feel the pressure as a player with almost no playing time before this year.

Well we're still going to be running into a stacked box this year with Sanchez, and Lynch - whenever he sees the field - is still going to be green as pistachio ice cream. That problem won't change for a minute, so the Broncos need to be able to move people and make holes anyway.

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Hello free agency! I see we had seen enough of our woeful tackle situation that we replaced both tackles (even though we have one coming back from injury in Sambrailo). Sambrailo is supposed to fight for the right tackle spot but slide in at guard if he can't beat out Stephenson. Regardless, that's a vast improvement on Schofield, and if something happens to either tackle Sambrailo is available to move out to the position and our new draftpick McGovern can step up inside.

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Hello draft! I see we decided to take a top-4 running back in this draft in Devontae Booker who runs like he was born for the one-cut, zone read system that we use. He can pass protect, get YAC, make decisive cuts, has great hands out of the backfield, and his weakness (lack of top-end speed) is one we don't really care about as a grind-em up offense. He's an older back, but we had Mike Anderson - we don't care as much about that. He'll keep his QB clean and get his own jersey dirty, and we need both of those things.

We added an incredibly strong tackle-turned-guard (Mcgovern, who was second at the combine in the bench press and one of the strongest men in college football) who can also get to the second level and has good footwork for an interior lineman. He needs some work on pass protection, especially since he's changing positions, but as a combination of Man-Ram's strength and something close to Beadles's movement skills it has the potential to be as good for us as Chris Kuper was.

And then we took a fullback who throws weight around like a lineman (he was out-bench-pressed by just 2 DL, 3 OL and zero LBs) and likes cracking heads in the hole - but can also run well and catch the ball when asked. Tyler Polumbus was on the radio explaining that Kubiak NEEDS a fullback to make the running game work the way he wants. He has that package now.

And most-impressively to me, Elway did it all on day 3, getting more potential impact players on Days 1 and 2 in other areas. If we can rebuild our running attack with good players without having to use prime picks to do it that's an incredible shift of leverage with those picks.

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Two real tackles, stronger interior players, more depth and a true fullback to help a strengthened running back core? Yeah, we're definitely waist-deep into the the Post-Manning Broncos plan now.

It's not going to be a splashy aerial attack, but we know that when Kubes was hired. After getting pounded by Seattle's physical play, Elway has set out to one-up them in that department. He has a Super Bowl trophy to show how well he learned that lesson, and is looking for another while he replaces a Hall of Famer at QB.

That's a high degree of difficulty maneuver - but I don't put anything past Elway at this point. He's building for the long-term while we win right now. Let's see if we can pound the rock like we mean it this year. Made TD and Griffith proud. :salute:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-02-2016, 10:12 AM
We will have a lot of success running to the left with Okung there.

BroncoWave
05-02-2016, 10:59 AM
You're going to make Mo all sad.

MOtorboat
05-02-2016, 11:08 AM
You're going to make Mo all sad.

Are they going to run the ball like they did against Indianapolis, or are they going to run the ball like they did against San Diego?

As long as they're getting first downs it doesn't matter, but if they're running it at 2.8 yards per pop, it's useless.

G_Money
05-02-2016, 11:12 AM
Are they going to run the ball like they did against Indianapolis, or are they going to run the ball like they did against San Diego?

As long as they're getting first downs it doesn't matter, but if they're running it at 2.8 yards per pop, it's useless.

Yup. I don't mind being committed to the run - I do mind being committed to running the ball in a shitty way over and over and over again. I don't need the Sammy Winder days back, because we don't have Elway to bail us out.

If we can chunk yardage with it and convert short third downs, great! Run the ball then. Hopefully this draft and free agency helps with that.

Hoshdude7
05-02-2016, 11:40 AM
Im pretty worried about our run game still. I love the signing of Booker as i think he will be our best back by week 8 or so, but what concerns me is us only drafting one OL. With OL being our largest weakness for most of the year I would have liked us to draft more than one OL, who also does not play as strong as he is in the weight room. To me, i dont see Okung lasting all year, so who will move to LT? I dont see enough depth on the current roster to feel comfortable or confident about us having a top 12 rushing attack

Ziggy
05-02-2016, 11:41 AM
Once CJ came out for a breather last season, our running game became pure finesse. Booker is a faster version of CJ. They're going to have these two and a fullback pounding the front 7 of the defense all day long. Add in bigger, more physical linemen and an even bigger commitment to the run and what does that spell? Breaking teams' will in the fourth quarter.

Oh to go back to the days of pounding the ball relentlessly when the other team knew it was coming and having success. Add that to this defense and this team is vastly improved overall.

Ziggy
05-02-2016, 11:41 AM
Im pretty worried about our run game still. I love the signing of Booker as i think he will be our best back by week 8 or so, but what concerns me is us only drafting one OL. With OL being our largest weakness for most of the year I would have liked us to draft more than one OL, who also does not play as strong as he is in the weight room. To me, i dont see Okung lasting all year, so who will move to LT? I dont see enough depth on the current roster to feel comfortable or confident about us having a top 12 rushing attack

Sambrailo and Stephenson both provide depth at LT.

Hoshdude7
05-02-2016, 11:43 AM
Sambrailo and Stephenson both provide depth at LT.

Are you comfortable with them protecting the blind side though?

MOtorboat
05-02-2016, 11:46 AM
Are you comfortable with them protecting the blind side though?

Not completely. That's why they signed Okung. You can't pay two all-pro left tackles just in case someone gets hurt. You're going to have a drop in quality from starter to backup, that's just reality.

G_Money
05-02-2016, 11:53 AM
Not completely. That's why they signed Okung. You can't pay two all-pro left tackles just in case someone gets hurt. You're going to have a drop in quality from starter to backup, that's just reality.

We also added a couple of decent TEs as UDFAs who can block too, and Heuerman will be back, and we drafted a FB (and a pass-protecting RB) if we want to max protect because Okung gets injured for the 11th year in a row. I would have liked to have drafted another OL, but with Sambrailo back along with two new tackles AND McGovern, it's not like we didn't address it.

It should be a better scenario than last year. Just tar and feather Schofield and put him on a rail out of town and we'll be fine. Alternately, move him to backup guard and NEVER let him sniff a minute at tackle again, I guess.

VonDoom
05-02-2016, 12:04 PM
Once CJ came out for a breather last season, our running game became pure finesse. Booker is a faster version of CJ. They're going to have these two and a fullback pounding the front 7 of the defense all day long. Add in bigger, more physical linemen and an even bigger commitment to the run and what does that spell? Breaking teams' will in the fourth quarter.

Oh to go back to the days of pounding the ball relentlessly when the other team knew it was coming and having success. Add that to this defense and this team is vastly improved overall.

I believe the Titans' GM was talking about an advantage that "run first" teams might have, which was the idea that with offenses being so pass heavy, teams had a lot of smaller, faster defenders to counteract that. But if a team is going to run it down the opponent's throat, those smaller guys will just get run over. I think that's what we're looking at here.

I think we'll take a big step forward in the run game this year, which in turn will help take pressure off of Sanchez. And honestly, if Lynch is ready to go by 2017 and our run game is already clicking, we could be a force, given Lynch's ability to make things happen with his legs.

Ziggy
05-02-2016, 01:27 PM
The good news is if Sanchez plays the season and Lynch redshirts, it means he played well and we walk away with a comp pick when he signs somewhere next year. If he plays poorly, Lynch gets a trial by fire. I'm not find of the latter option unless it comes after mid season.

G_Money
05-02-2016, 01:53 PM
The good news is if Sanchez plays the season and Lynch redshirts, it means he played well and we walk away with a comp pick when he signs somewhere next year. If he plays poorly, Lynch gets a trial by fire. I'm not find of the latter option unless it comes after mid season.

Same. I want a full year of Decent Sanchez, then let him go for a pick and give Lynch the reins next year. Get him a vet to back him up and call it good. Those Lynch naked boots after stretch-pounding the defense with our running game are gonna be a thing of beauty, too.

BroncoJoe
05-02-2016, 02:08 PM
Why is it that seem to high five every post G makes?

G_Money
05-02-2016, 02:09 PM
Why is it that seem to high five every post G makes?

Bribes. Maybe blackmail.

BroncoJoe
05-02-2016, 02:12 PM
Bribes. Maybe blackmail.

I refuse to high five this post on principle.

NightTrainLayne
05-02-2016, 02:50 PM
Why is it that seem to high five every post G makes?

When I see a G_Money post, I High-Five it first, and then I read it.

If it's average, I remove my High-Five.

Timmy!
05-02-2016, 04:46 PM
Mo hates this thread.

#moarshotgun

MOtorboat
05-02-2016, 05:07 PM
Mo hates this thread.

#moarshotgun

I hope they don't stop running from the shotgun.

Joel
05-02-2016, 05:59 PM
Once CJ came out for a breather last season, our running game became pure finesse. Booker is a faster version of CJ. They're going to have these two and a fullback pounding the front 7 of the defense all day long. Add in bigger, more physical linemen and an even bigger commitment to the run and what does that spell? Breaking teams' will in the fourth quarter.

That can't be overemphasized; Hillmans fans need to re-watch the SB, especially the opening drive. We began the game by gouging a very good Camolina D again and again, and after Daniels and Caldwell got us across midfield, CJ got us into scoring position and then the redzone with consecutive runs of 8 and 12 yds—but then he needed a rest, Hillman came in, and that IMMEDIATELY ended the drive.


1
14:56
1
10
DEN 20
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass complete short middle to Owen Daniels (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaniOw00.htm) for 18 yards (tackle by Roman Harper (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarpRo21.htm) and Kurt Coleman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ColeKu99.htm))
0
0


1
14:19
1
10
DEN 38
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass complete short left to Emmanuel Sanders (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SandEm00.htm) for 6 yards
0
0


1
13:50
2
4
DEN 44
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass incomplete short left intended for Owen Daniels (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaniOw00.htm)
0
0


1
13:46
3
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DEN 44
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass complete deep right to Andre Caldwell (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CaldAn00.htm) for 22 yards (tackle by Tre Boston (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BostTr00.htm)). Penalty on Josh Norman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NormJo01.htm): Defensive Holding (Declined)
0
0


1
13:22
1
10
CAR 34
C.J. Anderson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeC.00.htm) middle for 8 yards (tackle by Luke Kuechly (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KuecLu00.htm) and Roman Harper (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarpRo21.htm))
0
0


1
12:47
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2
CAR 26
C.J. Anderson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeC.00.htm) left tackle for 12 yards (tackle by Shaq Thompson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomSh01.htm) and Josh Norman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NormJo01.htm))
0
0


1
12:07
1
10
CAR 14
Ronnie Hillman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillRo00.htm) right guard for -3 yards (tackle by Shaq Thompson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomSh01.htm))
0
0


1
11:26
2
13
CAR 17
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass incomplete short right intended for Ronnie Hillman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillRo00.htm) (defended by Robert McClain (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McClRo98.htm))
0
0


1
11:22
3
13
CAR 17
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass complete short right to C.J. Anderson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeC.00.htm) for 1 yard (tackle by Thomas Davis (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaviTh20.htm))
0
0


1
10:47
4
12
CAR 16
Brandon McManus (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McMaBr01.htm) 34 yard field goal good
3
0



Or how 'bout this gem near the end of the half:



2
6:32
1
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DEN 40
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass incomplete short right intended for Demaryius Thomas (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomDe03.htm)
13
7


2
6:28
2
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DEN 40
C.J. Anderson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeC.00.htm) right guard for 34 yards (tackle by Cortland Finnegan (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FinnCo20.htm))
13
7


2
6:01
1
10
CAR 26
Ronnie Hillman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillRo00.htm) left end for 3 yards (tackle by Luke Kuechly (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KuecLu00.htm))
13
7


2
5:18
2
7
CAR 23
Ronnie Hillman (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillRo00.htm) middle for -1 yards (tackle by Star Lotulelei (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LotuSt00.htm))
13
7


2
4:35
3
8
CAR 24
Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm) pass incomplete short left intended for Emmanuel Sanders (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SandEm00.htm) is intercepted byKony Ealy (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/EalyKo00.htm) at CAR (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/car/2015.htm)-20 and returned for 19 yards
13
7



CJs 34 yd run was the SBs longest (by EITHER team) and took us from our side of the field to just outside their red zone in one fell swoop. But he broke multiple tackles to get those 34 yds, so needed another breather: Hillman for 3, Hillman for -1, setting up a 3rd and long Int just outside the red zone.

That's not to say CJ's weak or lacks endurance, just human: He finished the game with 23 carries for 90 yds, while Hillman had just 5 carries for NOTHING. Hillman's JaG; scatback, H-back, call it what you will, but with good blocking and the occasional flat pass he can do just enough in many ways to keep his job. CJ had two successful seasons DESPITE our porous blocking, but got the Hell beat out of him doing it.

They'll both be far better with the kind of consistently solid blocking our original championship teams had. Booker and CJ will be our mainstays and Hillman our flexback, and Lynch will have the kind of run support and protection he needs to develop into a legit NFL starter.


Oh to go back to the days of pounding the ball relentlessly when the other team knew it was coming and having success. Add that to this defense and this team is vastly improved overall.
Agreed; it's good to be home.

Joel
05-02-2016, 06:17 PM
I believe the Titans' GM was talking about an advantage that "run first" teams might have, which was the idea that with offenses being so pass heavy, teams had a lot of smaller, faster defenders to counteract that. But if a team is going to run it down the opponent's throat, those smaller guys will just get run over. I think that's what we're looking at here.
Hadn't heard that, but have been expecting it as the passing obsession reduces more and more Ds to playing a BASE nickel. Mannings Broncos were hardly the only ones facing that, and traditionally nickel and dime packages INVITE offenses to run: Ours just COULDN'T.

Football's always had a pendular ebb and flow, and the Competition Committee works hard to ensure it never swings too far/long any one way. Teams that anticipate and ride a given waves leading edge are VERY successful, but that takes a visionary GM willing to take risks, and repeatedly adapt (hence Davis and Jones had great success when the NFL changed to their style, but have floundered since it changed to another.) Teams that are the last to get the memo just play catchup.


I think we'll take a big step forward in the run game this year, which in turn will help take pressure off of Sanchez. And honestly, if Lynch is ready to go by 2017 and our run game is already clicking, we could be a force, given Lynch's ability to make things happen with his legs.
If we can maintain this D, we won't need elite passing OR running as long as we consistently have the blocking to do BOTH well enough opponents can't sell out on stopping EITHER. But the best way to stay out of predictable 3rd and long remains reliably running for 3-4+ on 1st and 2nd down.

Tned
05-02-2016, 08:56 PM
Are they going to run the ball like they did against Indianapolis, or are they going to run the ball like they did against San Diego?

As long as they're getting first downs it doesn't matter, but if they're running it at 2.8 yards per pop, it's useless.

The only thing I don't like about Kubiak led offenses is that when his offense can't do what he wants it to do, he keeps trying the same thing over and over, regardless.

The most telling example of that, was the '05/06 AFCCG. The Broncos were completely unable to run the ball against the Steeler defense, but even in the second half, when the run was abandoned, he was still running play action passes, putting his QBs back to the rushers, and forcing his blockers to fake the run, before getting back to block the pass rush.

We've seen many other examples of the same over the years, but that one example I'll never forget.

So, not only does Kubiak want to run the ball, he needs to run the ball. In many ways, to coin a phrase of a poster of the past, Kubiak is a bit of a one trick pony. What I will say, when that one trick is working, then his offense can look like a thoroughbred, but when that trick isn't, it's like a broken down mule.

Tned
05-02-2016, 08:57 PM
When I see a G_Money post, I High-Five it first, and then I read it.

If it's average, I remove my High-Five.

Quoted, just because it's worth having everyone read this post a second time.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-02-2016, 10:18 PM
Quoted, just because it's worth having everyone read this post a second time.

That post was definitely rich. It's stuff like this legacies are made from.

Simple Jaded
05-02-2016, 10:59 PM
Sambrailo and Stephenson both provide depth at LT.

And McGovern, it's an ideal way of building an OL, imo. Their 4th string LT may not be perfect but he has experience playing there.

I might even try to sign Will Beatty once he's healthy, ala, Jake Long/Atlanta Falcons a year ago.

Joel
05-03-2016, 03:50 AM
The only thing I don't like about Kubiak led offenses is that when his offense can't do what he wants it to do, he keeps trying the same thing over and over, regardless.

The most telling example of that, was the '05/06 AFCCG. The Broncos were completely unable to run the ball against the Steeler defense, but even in the second half, when the run was abandoned, he was still running play action passes, putting his QBs back to the rushers, and forcing his blockers to fake the run, before getting back to block the pass rush.

We've seen many other examples of the same over the years, but that one example I'll never forget.

So, not only does Kubiak want to run the ball, he needs to run the ball. In many ways, to coin a phrase of a poster of the past, Kubiak is a bit of a one trick pony. What I will say, when that one trick is working, then his offense can look like a thoroughbred, but when that trick isn't, it's like a broken down mule.
The problem is EVERYONE needs to run the ball; it just doesn't seem like every coach realizes that. But if you think 2nd and 8 or 3rd and 7 is predictable, try 2nd/3rd and 10 on every single series. Add to that that much of the running game's about the patience to call enough plunges to get that rare walkoff TD and wear down the D for big gains at the end of each half, and it makes sense that Kubiak keeps going back to it even when it's not working: Sticking with it's the only way it CAN work.

We still need the personnel to do the job, but I think he, Elway and Dennison get that. At least that's the impression I got from going after a legit QB prospect in the 1st round and later taking a G who's both strong enough to can DTs and nimble enough to pull and lead block downfield. No more grabbing Grieses and Schaubs hoping Kubiak can make the decent, or drafting subpar line talent that "fits the system" and hoping Dennison can work magic with them.

It's still all about passing AND running well enough to burn the bad guys if they sell out on stopping one or the other. If/when we can do that, I expect a lot more versatility and unpredictability from Kubiak and Dennisons playcalls, but unless/until we have the personnel to execute whatever we do will look awful. Last years calls were about not letting a bad offense screw up so badly it made game irretrievable for an elite D, but I doubt that's our long term plan.

Tned
05-03-2016, 06:24 AM
The problem is EVERYONE needs to run the ball; it just doesn't seem like every coach realizes that. But if you think 2nd and 8 or 3rd and 7 is predictable, try 2nd/3rd and 10 on every single series. Add to that that much of the running game's about the patience to call enough plunges to get that rare walkoff TD and wear down the D for big gains at the end of each half, and it makes sense that Kubiak keeps going back to it even when it's not working: Sticking with it's the only way it CAN work.

We still need the personnel to do the job, but I think he, Elway and Dennison get that. At least that's the impression I got from going after a legit QB prospect in the 1st round and later taking a G who's both strong enough to can DTs and nimble enough to pull and lead block downfield. No more grabbing Grieses and Schaubs hoping Kubiak can make the decent, or drafting subpar line talent that "fits the system" and hoping Dennison can work magic with them.

It's still all about passing AND running well enough to burn the bad guys if they sell out on stopping one or the other. If/when we can do that, I expect a lot more versatility and unpredictability from Kubiak and Dennisons playcalls, but unless/until we have the personnel to execute whatever we do will look awful. Last years calls were about not letting a bad offense screw up so badly it made game irretrievable for an elite D, but I doubt that's our long term plan.

I think you missed my point. The reason I said he not only wants to, but needs to, run the ball, was not for what you described. Yes, every team needs to run the ball so they aren't one dimensional. That goes without saying.

What I was describing was Kubiak's intractable philosophy, which has an offense built around running the ball and play action. Except for his hard fought compromise with Manning, Kubiak is a run, run, play action -- run, play action, run, play action, play action, run, run, guy. He does not give his QBs much flexibility to change the play at the line of scrimmage. In his ideal world, the QB would never change the play at the line of scrimmage.

It's due to his commitment, or some might ever go as far as calling it an obsession, with run/play action, that his teams MUST run the ball to be successful.

Other teams, like New England for instance, don't have to run the ball to be successful. Their coach might use short screen passes to RBs or WRs to take the place of the run game. Kubiak isn't built that way. He's a "we will do it the way I drew it up or go down in flames trying" kind of coach.

Broncoknight30
05-03-2016, 06:39 AM
Make no mistake. The Broncos will be committed to balance. Not being a RUN FIRST team, but a balanced team. The days of throwing the ball all over the field are done. At least as long as Kubiak and Elway are in charge.

To date, a QB still has not had over 600 pass attempts in a season and won the SB in that year. Top 10 most prolific passing offenses, only one won the QB (1999 Rams.)

Every single pass heavy offense gets figured out at some point. Dates back to the air-Coryel Fouts and Marino days. Dan Marino has a horrible play off record.

Brady, in his first 4 seasons was 10-0 in the play offs with 3 SB wins. None of those seasons when he won those 3 did pass for 4000 yards or 30TDs. In his top 10 "statistical seasons he is 10-8 in the play offs and 1-2 in super bowls.

That is not lost on Elway and the tale of the two Broncos teams says everything. The 2013 Broncos and 2015 Broncos. Now, the Broncos did not run the ball great, but they were committed to running a BALANCED offense. That is what Elway wanted. Hence the coaching change from Fox and Gase to Kubiak.

I, along with other Broncos fans were a little shocked they were able to get it done with such an inept offense last year. They did. No, not because of the offense, but there was a commitment to balance as I said.

This offense will be better this year. The OL has been improved already. The running game will be more effective. Count on it. Just say goodbye to the pass heavy offense that many of you fell in love with. Not with Elway here.

Thank God.

G_Money
05-03-2016, 09:26 AM
This offense will be better this year. The OL has been improved already. The running game will be more effective. Count on it. Just say goodbye to the pass heavy offense that many of you fell in love with. Not with Elway here.

Thank God.

I think I'm most impressed that Denver was able to improve their offense as much as I think they did without allocating a ton of resources to the overhaul.

Stephenson: 3 years, 14 million (6 million guaranteed)
Okung: 1 year, 5 million, with a 4/48 extension if we want it (nothing guaranteed up front, 4 year extension structured with roster bonuses)

And then the draft was all third-day guys for the running game. The Ravens probably had a better day than we did on Day 3, but few other teams did IMO. When you can get:

1) a quality RB who is scheme-perfect and could get tandem-starter carries immediately
2) a guard who can slide out to tackle if needed and might be your starting G by the end of the preseason
3) the FB you need to make your offense work correctly who can also catch and run

and not spend any of your first or second day picks to do it, your draft is going all right. When you can add a pair of starting tackles, one of them a quality left tackle, for a smaller cap hit than your last left tackle made by himself while sitting on a beach 2 of the last 3 years, your free agency is going well. We paid more than I wanted to for CJ Anderson, but Hillman is around for a song and can still be cut for almost no cap hit. Anderson's contract is really a two-year deal because there is zero cap hit for cutting him after 2017, so there is little risk there either.

And by having Lynch instead of Oz, we should be able to get the Von deal and the Marshall extension done as well. Elway's good at this allocation-of-resources thing. Restocking the best defense in the league after the poachers have come through while also improving the offense is a neat little trick.

The AFC West is getting better step by step - let's have some fun in our division this year, see if the rivals want to live up to that moniker. I don't expect another Super Bowl trip, but stranger things have happened. Like winning one with last year's offense, for instance...

Joel
05-03-2016, 09:51 AM
I think you missed my point. The reason I said he not only wants to, but needs to, run the ball, was not for what you described. Yes, every team needs to run the ball so they aren't one dimensional. That goes without saying.

What I was describing was Kubiak's intractable philosophy, which has an offense built around running the ball and play action. Except for his hard fought compromise with Manning, Kubiak is a run, run, play action -- run, play action, run, play action, play action, run, run, guy. He does not give his QBs much flexibility to change the play at the line of scrimmage. In his ideal world, the QB would never change the play at the line of scrimmage.

It's due to his commitment, or some might ever go as far as calling it an obsession, with run/play action, that his teams MUST run the ball to be successful.

Other teams, like New England for instance, don't have to run the ball to be successful. Their coach might use short screen passes to RBs or WRs to take the place of the run game. Kubiak isn't built that way. He's a "we will do it the way I drew it up or go down in flames trying" kind of coach.
I'm not seeing the distinction, unless you mean he needs to vary the TYPE of runs more. If so, I agree, but still believe the limiting factor has been our blocking, not our playbook: As long as plunges are hit at the handoff, our RBs surely won't have time to do more with a pitch outside. We've tried (e.g. it's how we lost Sambrailo for the year running Hillman for -2) but with no more success. Those limited choices may explain Kubiaks preference for desultory inside runs that gain little, but rarely lose as much as a busted run outside (which can be as bad as a sack.)

Rightly or not, I feel much better about our blocking now, so expect to see a thicker playbook this year and next. If that happens but we STILL get nothing more than runs up the gut and off tackle, I'll concede the point. I must say this though:

Short passes over the middle/in the flat to RBs are great to draw safeties and ILBs away from WRs, but WRs can't distract anyone from THEMSELVES with short passes impersonating a run game. We can't "run to establish the pass" if 90% of the time the ball carrier's either DT, Sanders or Daniels: Running or catching, short or deep, the whole D will always go where they are as long as they're all we've got. Drawing safeties into the box is a good thing, but only if there are WRs free to beat one-on-one coverage deep, not playing dink-and-dunk right in the laps of safeties.

G_Money
05-03-2016, 10:58 AM
Other teams, like New England for instance, don't have to run the ball to be successful. Their coach might use short screen passes to RBs or WRs to take the place of the run game. Kubiak isn't built that way. He's a "we will do it the way I drew it up or go down in flames trying" kind of coach.

I agree with everything you said, but I think Kubiak would argue that Andy Reed has never won a Super Bowl by substituting the short pass for the run, that the Broncos got destroyed trying to do that against the Seahawks, and that NE can dominate the regular season with the Tom Brady Show but titles have eluded them when they try to do that in the playoffs.

I agree with you that Kubiak has no plan B. His hybrid offense with Manning was one of the ugliest things I've ever seen from as mismatched a duo as I can imagine. When Kubes has the right parts (Elway, TD) his offense can be one of the most frustrating things to play against. He is thrilled that you know what is coming and can't stop it, because the second you sell out to stop the run he goes back to the pass and throws daggers in your soul.

Of course, when he doesn't have the OL and RB and QB and TE and WR to do that, it just turns into boring and predictable nonsense that can easily be overwhelmed. He doesn't scheme his players better (although he has gotten some VERY iffy QBs to some unexpected heights before it all burned down). The only positions Kubes can protect with his offense are QB and OL, which leads to him thinking he can win with scheme-fits there instead of talent.

John seems to have identified what Kubiak needs for his offense rather than what he will try to survive with, and is busy getting those things. Heuerman should be really good for us at TE. Booker and McGovern both fit the scheme AND have quite a bit of talent. And Lynch is a rollout demon with a huge arm, much better than Oz would have been for throwing on the move or getting first downs with his legs. Lynch needs work in the pocket, but every single QB in this draft does. Paxton has the other stuff that can make him good - and "Good" is all Kubiak needs. I'd love him to be great, but we'll be in the playoffs every year and make some championship games with "good" QB play, a consistent running attack and a lock-down defense.

Our head coach thinks his one trick works better than the pass-happy one trick does when both are working - and he's right. John signed us up for this, so it's his job to make that pony the best damn pony Mr. Bowlen's money can buy. I think we're back on track for that after a shaky first season (that still won a title somehow). And I agree with Joel as well that there should be more wrinkles with an actual fullback than can do a variety of things, better TE play for the full season, and multiple RBs that fit the scheme instead of just Anderson.

Not everything has to be dive plays, and if the OL can stay healthy (or we can keep better backups, which we look like we are getting) then the consistency of the blocking should be better too and allow for more effective misdirection.

God, I hope so anyway. I almost gouged my eyes out last year watching our O.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-03-2016, 12:00 PM
Not everyone has a Brady or Manning where you can run 5 times in a game and still win.
That formula probably won't work when Brady retires.

Dreadnought
05-03-2016, 12:03 PM
I agree with everything you said, but I think Kubiak would argue that Andy Reed has never won a Super Bowl by substituting the short pass for the run, that the Broncos got destroyed trying to do that against the Seahawks, and that NE can dominate the regular season with the Tom Brady Show but titles have eluded them when they try to do that in the playoffs.

I agree with you that Kubiak has no plan B. His hybrid offense with Manning was one of the ugliest things I've ever seen from as mismatched a duo as I can imagine. When Kubes has the right parts (Elway, TD) his offense can be one of the most frustrating things to play against. He is thrilled that you know what is coming and can't stop it, because the second you sell out to stop the run he goes back to the pass and throws daggers in your soul.

Of course, when he doesn't have the OL and RB and QB and TE and WR to do that, it just turns into boring and predictable nonsense that can easily be overwhelmed. He doesn't scheme his players better (although he has gotten some VERY iffy QBs to some unexpected heights before it all burned down). The only positions Kubes can protect with his offense are QB and OL, which leads to him thinking he can win with scheme-fits there instead of talent.

John seems to have identified what Kubiak needs for his offense rather than what he will try to survive with, and is busy getting those things. Heuerman should be really good for us at TE. Booker and McGovern both fit the scheme AND have quite a bit of talent. And Lynch is a rollout demon with a huge arm, much better than Oz would have been for throwing on the move or getting first downs with his legs. Lynch needs work in the pocket, but every single QB in this draft does. Paxton has the other stuff that can make him good - and "Good" is all Kubiak needs. I'd love him to be great, but we'll be in the playoffs every year and make some championship games with "good" QB play, a consistent running attack and a lock-down defense.

Our head coach thinks his one trick works better than the pass-happy one trick does when both are working - and he's right. John signed us up for this, so it's his job to make that pony the best damn pony Mr. Bowlen's money can buy. I think we're back on track for that after a shaky first season (that still won a title somehow). And I agree with Joel as well that there should be more wrinkles with an actual fullback than can do a variety of things, better TE play for the full season, and multiple RBs that fit the scheme instead of just Anderson.

Not everything has to be dive plays, and if the OL can stay healthy (or we can keep better backups, which we look like we are getting) then the consistency of the blocking should be better too and allow for more effective misdirection.

God, I hope so anyway. I almost gouged my eyes out last year watching our O.

I will say, our running attack in the second half of 2015 bore no resemblance to the running attack in the first half of the year. I think its mostly because CJ Anderson woke up and reverted to being brilliant, but other factors played in. It gives me hope.

Joel
05-04-2016, 12:16 AM
I agree with everything you said, but I think Kubiak would argue that Andy Reed has never won a Super Bowl by substituting the short pass for the run, that the Broncos got destroyed trying to do that against the Seahawks, and that NE can dominate the regular season with the Tom Brady Show but titles have eluded them when they try to do that in the playoffs.

I agree with you that Kubiak has no plan B. His hybrid offense with Manning was one of the ugliest things I've ever seen from as mismatched a duo as I can imagine. When Kubes has the right parts (Elway, TD) his offense can be one of the most frustrating things to play against. He is thrilled that you know what is coming and can't stop it, because the second you sell out to stop the run he goes back to the pass and throws daggers in your soul.
Well, that's just football; one of its few fundamental constants. NO ONE would EVER defend the run unless FORCED: Those flying daggers do far more damage far too quickly, so everyone will always sell out on stopping THAT if allowed a choice.

I realize the enduringly popular conceit says all coaches are Depression era dinosaurs who think about footballs are like people: If God meant either to fly He'd have given them wings. The reality is pro passing went from sideshow to big top at the same time TV did, but that means coaches (at least) since the 1950s have been as focused on stopping opponents passes as on completing their own. So any team that can't run lives in 3rd and long, throwing into the teeth of a D expecting it.


Of course, when he doesn't have the OL and RB and QB and TE and WR to do that, it just turns into boring and predictable nonsense that can easily be overwhelmed.. ;) He doesn't scheme his players better (although he has gotten some VERY iffy QBs to some unexpected heights before it all burned down). The only positions Kubes can protect with his offense are QB and OL, which leads to him thinking he can win with scheme-fits there instead of talent.
Unfortunately THAT is also among footballs few fundamental constants. Schemes can only compensate for so much lack of talent for so long before there's enough game tape opponents pinpoint weaknesses and paint a team into a corner, taking away the few things it does well so it's forced to do what it does badly. That's Belicheat in a nutshell, but also why Plummer, Schaub and even Griese had a good year or two, then spectacularly and irretrievably imploded.


John seems to have identified what Kubiak needs for his offense rather than what he will try to survive with, and is busy getting those things.
I think (and certainly HOPE) Shannys last days and their Houston tenure's taught Kubiak and Dennison the same lesson about QBs and OL respectively: Scheme can (briefly) turn hamburger into round, but never prime rib. We're no longer taking mediocre talents no one else wanted, just to scheme them into one-year wonders because they're limited abilities happen to fit our system, but pursuing TOP talents who ALSO fit our system: Because that's how dynasties are built.


Heuerman should be really good for us at TE. Booker and McGovern both fit the scheme AND have quite a bit of talent. And Lynch is a rollout demon with a huge arm, much better than Oz would have been for throwing on the move or getting first downs with his legs. Lynch needs work in the pocket, but every single QB in this draft does. Paxton has the other stuff that can make him good - and "Good" is all Kubiak needs. I'd love him to be great, but we'll be in the playoffs every year and make some championship games with "good" QB play, a consistent running attack and a lock-down defense.
Even so.


Our head coach thinks his one trick works better than the pass-happy one trick does when both are working - and he's right. John signed us up for this, so it's his job to make that pony the best damn pony Mr. Bowlen's money can buy. I think we're back on track for that after a shaky first season (that still won a title somehow). And I agree with Joel as well that there should be more wrinkles with an actual fullback than can do a variety of things, better TE play for the full season, and multiple RBs that fit the scheme instead of just Anderson.

Not everything has to be dive plays, and if the OL can stay healthy (or we can keep better backups, which we look like we are getting) then the consistency of the blocking should be better too and allow for more effective misdirection.
That's the real "trick," because one-trick ponies are doomed in the NFL no matter what the trick or how good it is. Offense has the advantage because it has the initiative: It starts every play at a time of its own choosing and the D doesn't know the play, so must prepare for anything and everything. But lack of talent concedes all that initiative to the D, no matter how good the scheme, and I think Kubiak and Dennison learned that one the hard way.

None of that's to take anything away from Elways scouting and dealing, but I'm confident they're all on the same page, not working at cross purposes (as I think Elway and Fox often were) and the immediate results speak for themselves.


God, I hope so anyway. I almost gouged my eyes out last year watching our O.
Yeah, but I took consolation in the knowledge that Kubiak and Dennison would fix it given time: It was just ALREADY so bad before their return that they couldn't do it overnight. Their scheme still managed to maximize our few strengths and minimize our few weaknesses well enough to win a championship largely on our D. But that's not (or at least not JUST) who we'll be long term.

I've long felt only Schaub prevented Kubiak, Dennison and Wades otherwise STACKED roster winning SBs; said back in 2011 Schaub would get them ALL fired unless replaced. Robert McNair and Rick Smith never allowed Kubiak to spend top draft picks on that solution, so he got stuck with a late round TJ Yates and UDFA Case Keenum: Kubiak still had those guys punching above their weight, because that's what he do. Elway's giving him a LOT more to work with though, and I'm really psyched about that and what Elway's enabling Dennison to do with our blocking. I'm more excited about the Broncos without Manning than I ever was with him. :)

Joel
05-04-2016, 12:18 AM
I will say, our running attack in the second half of 2015 bore no resemblance to the running attack in the first half of the year. I think its mostly because CJ Anderson woke up and reverted to being brilliant, but other factors played in. It gives me hope.
Healed up is more like it; yet another reason I'm excited to see what he does with a line worthy of the name. Remember: Willis McGahee helped us lead the NFL in rushing in 2011, but only because he himself led the NFL in yards after CONTACT; he spent much of the next year on the bench hurt, then retired a year later. The starting RBs job is punishing enough when linemen DON'T let him regularly get hit multiple times in the backfield.

Simple Jaded
05-04-2016, 12:20 AM
Kubiak will dink and dunk to supplement the running game too, I bet he does a lot next season, and I bet half the fans will complain that he does it too much while the other half complains that he doesn't do it at all.......even though he does.

We're screwed.

Joel
05-04-2016, 12:33 AM
Kubiak will dink and dunk to supplement the running game too, I bet he does a lot next season, and I bet half the fans will complain that he does it too much while the other half complains that he doesn't do it at all.......even though he does.

We're screwed.
I'll always complain about dink and dunk, for innumerable reasons (seriously: Every time I try to list all of them, I always forget at least one or two; there's just THAT many.) I hate pick-sixes, can't see how 2nd and 8<2nd and 10 (or 17) and don't understand how we misdirect safeties and ILBs from WRs by throwing TO WRs. You can't divert peoples attention from something by drawing a bright big flashing circle and arrows around it, nor burn people deep with WRs who AREN'T deep.


--->IGNORE THIS; IT'S NOT IMPORTANT<---


See what I mean? Dink and dunk just enough to keep the D honest, just as screen's were invented to deter blitzes, not score TDs outright. When we hired Kubiak, Dennison and Wade, I expected a solid line and consequently versatile offense sooner than later: That's why I wanted to do it a year earlier. Their first year (especially tearing down and rebuilding our line) only encourages that expectation.

Simple Jaded
05-04-2016, 12:37 AM
No more bubble screens, let's start a petition, who's with me?

Valar Morghulis
05-04-2016, 12:46 AM
No more bubble screens, let's start a petition, who's with me?

Could we get a billboard?

Joel
05-04-2016, 01:40 AM
No more bubble screens, let's start a petition, who's with me?
Given that we've run that play religiously since 2012—through 2 HCs and 3 OCs—I'm 99.44% sure it was the brainchild of the ONE guy who called ALL our offensive plays until last year. I mean, I doubt we'll rip that page out of the playbook completely, but the guy who kept calling it's no longer on the team, so....

G_Money
05-04-2016, 08:28 AM
Healed up is more like it; yet another reason I'm excited to see what he does with a line worthy of the name. Remember: Willis McGahee helped us lead the NFL in rushing in 2011, but only because he himself led the NFL in yards after CONTACT; he spent much of the next year on the bench hurt, then retired a year later. The starting RBs job is punishing enough when linemen DON'T let him regularly get hit multiple times in the backfield.

Another reason the FB is there - to reduce some of the immediate punishment that the running backs receive.