Replacing Malik Jackson?

[Broncoknight30]

He was far more valuable imo to the defense than many think. To me the key was the push from the middle that made the pocket uncomfortable for every QB they faced. Especially in the play off run. I know I am not Einstein with that observation, but I do think Malik along with Wolfe were far more valuable than many think. Especially Jackson. Without a pocket to step into, the outside guys do not just run by. Meaning, their pursuit becomes that much more effective.

Here is an example of that.

https://usatbroncoswire.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/miller-and-ware-sack.gif?w=1000


I know in this hard cap era, it is literally impossible to sign EVERYONE. I guess I am a little concerned over losing that effectiveness that Jackson provided.

[Northman]

We will be fine.

[TXBRONC]

I don't think it's that people do not realize Jackson's value to the defense but it's a matter of reality. It was going to be difficult for Elway to re-sign him.

[Joel]

He was far more valuable imo to the defense than many think.
We'll see. I concede not being defensively minded, but think of the 3-4 as built like a V and the 4-3 as inverted V: That makes the NT and OLBs the 3-4s core and the DEs and ILBs complementary players. Very few dominating 3-4 DEs come to mind; basically Watt. Don't get me wrong, I love Wolfe to death, and Jackson also played both run and pass well, but they don't take over games as Von and Ware do, mainly because that's not their role.

4-3s need star DEs to do what 3-4 OLBs do; 3-4s not so much.


To me the key was the push from the middle that made the pocket uncomfortable for every QB they faced.
I agree, but believe that was primarily Sly, who really impressed me by stepping fully and firmly into a role I really didn't think he had the mass to play (remember, this is a guy who'd spent his first three years playing UT next to the kind of beefy forces of nature I like for 3-4 NTs.) This clip's a prime example: Sly didn't make the play, nor even get penetration, but DID draw a double team up the gut so OTHER people could on the edge.

That's not to take anything away from Jackson, who's a good player and still had to bull rush a starting G one-on-one to set up the play (though the way Ware beat the OT, and Von the other one, they might've made the play anyway.) But 3-4 DEs don't have to be elite at anything, only reliable against both pass and run. Guys like that aren't that hard to find, and we've already got an elite one on the other side.

Maybe the physicality and athleticism of Wolfe AND Jackson made Sly look better than he is; again, we'll see. But we've got a guy who started in Wolfes spot the whole first month of the season, then spent the rest of it rotating with Sly, and did both well. We've also got a 2nd round and UDFA rookie who each look like they could do the same. And we've still got Wolfe. I wish Jackson well, but doubt we'll miss him much.


I know in this hard cap era, it is literally impossible to sign EVERYONE. I guess I am a little concerned over losing that effectiveness that Jackson provided.
Understandable and justified, but the key thing is to keep the core guys, then fill in the complementary ones around them with versatile athletic players hungry to establish themselves with a champion. I think we're doing that; at this point I'm more concerned about who starts in Trevathans place than which of our good options replaces Jackson. My two cents; take 'em for what they're worth.

[Broncoknight30]

We'll see. I concede not being defensively minded, but think of the 3-4 as built like a V and the 4-3 as inverted V: That makes the NT and OLBs the 3-4s core and the DEs and ILBs complementary players. Very few dominating 3-4 DEs come to mind; basically Watt. Don't get me wrong, I love Wolfe to death, and Jackson also played both run and pass well, but they don't take over games as Von and Ware do, mainly because that's not their role.

4-3s need star DEs to do what 3-4 OLBs do; 3-4s not so much.


I agree, but believe that was primarily Sly, who really impressed me by stepping fully and firmly into a role I really didn't think he had the mass to play (remember, this is a guy who'd spent his first three years playing UT next to the kind of beefy forces of nature I like for 3-4 NTs.) This clip's a prime example: Sly didn't make the play, nor even get penetration, but DID draw a double team up the gut so OTHER people could on the edge.

That's not to take anything away from Jackson, who's a good player and still had to bull rush a starting G one-on-one to set up the play (though the way Ware beat the OT, and Von the other one, they might've made the play anyway.) But 3-4 DEs don't have to be elite at anything, only reliable against both pass and run. Guys like that aren't that hard to find, and we've already got an elite one on the other side.

Maybe the physicality and athleticism of Wolfe AND Jackson made Sly look better than he is; again, we'll see. But we've got a guy who started in Wolfes spot the whole first month of the season, then spent the rest of it rotating with Sly, and did both well. We've also got a 2nd round and UDFA rookie who each look like they could do the same. And we've still got Wolfe. I wish Jackson well, but doubt we'll miss him much.


Understandable and justified, but the key thing is to keep the core guys, then fill in the complementary ones around them with versatile athletic players hungry to establish themselves with a champion. I think we're doing that; at this point I'm more concerned about who starts in Trevathans place than which of our good options replaces Jackson. My two cents; take 'em for what they're worth.

Some of the most impactful defenders are the 3-4 DEs. Many times they do not get the notoriety that they deserve and some do.

JJ Watt is a 3-4 DE for example. Yes, traditionally the NT did get most of the rep and they are still valuable no doubt. However, in the growing pass happy league and the emphasis being placed on "pocket passers" it is as much about pushing the pocket.

That btw has always been Brady's great kryptonite. If you notice he becomes very ordinary when he doesn't have a sterilized pocket to step into. Typically, a 3-4 defense offers the best chance since a DC can dial up different looks as far as blitz packages. Zones etc.

Anyway, Malik Jackson provided definite push and made teams adjust to it during games. I just saw a lot more effectiveness with the edge rushing since many times the pocket was pushed back. Wolfe was also a big contributor.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

He was far more valuable imo to the defense than many think. To me the key was the push from the middle that made the pocket uncomfortable for every QB they faced. Especially in the play off run. I know I am not Einstein with that observation, but I do think Malik along with Wolfe were far more valuable than many think. Especially Jackson. Without a pocket to step into, the outside guys do not just run by. Meaning, their pursuit becomes that much more effective.

Here is an example of that.

https://usatbroncoswire.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/miller-and-ware-sack.gif?w=1000


I know in this hard cap era, it is literally impossible to sign EVERYONE. I guess I am a little concerned over losing that effectiveness that Jackson provided.

Fortunately the guy who was doubled is still on the team, and so is the guy who was doubled more than any other defensive lineman we have.
I'm not saying Malik isn't a good player, because he is, but he isn't even the 3rd best player from last year's front 7.
I think our d may be half a step slower this year, but our offense should be 2 steps faster.

[OrangeHoof]

When you're surrounded by good players (Denver's d-line), everyone looks good.

When you're surrounded by poor players (Denver's o-line), everyone looks bad.

Pot Roast was great but we won a Super Bowl without him. Just sayin'.

[Broncoknight30]

When you're surrounded by good players (Denver's d-line), everyone looks good.

When you're surrounded by poor players (Denver's o-line), everyone looks bad.

Pot Roast was great but we won a Super Bowl without him. Just sayin'.

Not for nothing, but the Broncos were missing rather key pieces in that game.

Von Miller
Derek Wolfe
Chris Harris
Ryan Clady
Vickerson

Along with a few others. Personally, I thought the defense was greatly mismanaged. Even if they were all healthy, JDR's 4-3 scheme did not put players in their natural positions.

The point is Malik Jackson was a very effective rusher from what can be seen as the interior.

I think his presence will be missed.

[OrangeHoof]

I guess you meant the SB loss to Seattle as "that game"? Read again. I said we *won* a Super Bowl (that would be last season) without Pot Roast. A lot of folks wanted to keep Pot Roast and predicted we'd suffer without him. Result? He got his millions elsewhere and we got the Lombardi Trophy.

I liked Malik and Travathan both. But you have to prioritize. The defense priority in the NFL is edge rushers and cornerbacks. Elway made sure he's covered in both departments with a bonus (Roby and Ray) to account for injury. ILBs, DTs and safeties aren't as difficult to replace so he can forgo paying top dollar for those players and simply find someone else in the draft or free agency to develop that meets our price.

That's the reality of the situation. We kept Wolfe but let Malik leave. We kept Marshall but let Travathan leave. We have replacements for both.

That's simply the economics of pro football in the salary cap era. You pay to keep your "skill position" guys and selectively allow the others to leave when they become easier to replace than to pay.

[Jsteve01]

Crick and Gotsis will do a fine job. Wolfe was the better player by year's end and i expect huge things with a other year under Kollar. I dont want to minimize Malik but to a certain degree much of his performance was system and playing for Kollar. 15mill for 5 sacks is a ridiculous number

[Broncoknight30]

Crick and Gotsis will do a fine job. Wolfe was the better player by year's end and i expect huge things with a other year under Kollar. I dont want to minimize Malik but to a certain degree much of his performance was system and playing for Kollar. 15mill for 5 sacks is a ridiculous number

Sacks is one thing, pressure is another. That play I have on the gif is typical.

I thought this Broncos defense was their best even though they did not break the team record for sacks which is 57 in 1984.

Yes, I understand the economics of the game makes it impossible to sign everyone. That is just the way it is. Like when the Pats had to part with many of their key cogs over the years.

I trust Elway's judgement. His general manager skills are actually eclipsing what he accomplished as a QB at this rate.


Personally, I sort of wish they did not give DT all of that money so they could have had enough to sign Malik.

[Broncoknight30]

Crick and Gotsis will do a fine job. Wolfe was the better player by year's end and i expect huge things with a other year under Kollar. I dont want to minimize Malik but to a certain degree much of his performance was system and playing for Kollar. 15mill for 5 sacks is a ridiculous number

Sacks is one thing, pressure is another. That play I have on the gif is typical.

I thought this Broncos defense was their best (as far as pass rush) even though they did not break the team record for sacks which is 57 in 1984.

Yes, I understand the economics of the game makes it impossible to sign everyone. That is just the way it is. Like when the Pats had to part with many of their key cogs over the years.

I trust Elway's judgement. His general manager skills are actually eclipsing what he accomplished as a QB at this rate.


Personally, I sort of wish they did not give DT all of that money so they could have had enough to sign Malik.

[G_Money]

I guess you meant the SB loss to Seattle as "that game"? Read again. I said we *won* a Super Bowl (that would be last season) without Pot Roast. A lot of folks wanted to keep Pot Roast and predicted we'd suffer without him. Result? He got his millions elsewhere and we got the Lombardi Trophy.

I liked Malik and Travathan both. But you have to prioritize. The defense priority in the NFL is edge rushers and cornerbacks. Elway made sure he's covered in both departments with a bonus (Roby and Ray) to account for injury. ILBs, DTs and safeties aren't as difficult to replace so he can forgo paying top dollar for those players and simply find someone else in the draft or free agency to develop that meets our price.

That's the reality of the situation. We kept Wolfe but let Malik leave. We kept Marshall but let Travathan leave. We have replacements for both.

That's simply the economics of pro football in the salary cap era. You pay to keep your "skill position" guys and selectively allow the others to leave when they become easier to replace than to pay.

This. We had two options to pick from at each position, paid one and let the other go, and are now in the process of replacing the production from those spots for cheap. The goal is for Gotsis to turn into Wolfe, and for Gotsis to get the contract 4 years from now when we let Wolfe go. The Patriots have been doing this for more than a decade. We're now at that point. If we've actually addressed the QB position (even if at Flacco-level rather than Brady-level) then we can spend the rest of our time getting the team to compete for another 10 years.

Can't pay everybody and do that. We're doing it the right way.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'd rather have our best WR compared to our 4th best front 7 player.

[G_Money]

Personally, I sort of wish they did not give DT all of that money so they could have had enough to sign Malik.

Elway wouldn't have done that anyway. He's been very vocal about not dedicating too many resources to one position on the team because it hurts too much in other areas. Malik was not getting paid by us.

Whether we should have kept Wolfe or Jackson is up for debate, but I thought the rumor was that they made the same offer to both dudes, first one to take it gets it, and Wolfe took it.

Wolfe: 4/36 million with 17+ guaranteed
Malik: 6/85.5 million with 30 million guaranteed and another 5 million in bonuses.

Malik was absolutely right not to sign the deal. His guarantees are almost as much as Wolfe's entire deal. And in return, he can't play here. Wolfe made the same decision Chris Harris made: to take "enough" money and stick around Denver longer to enjoy winning and not have to endure a craptastic environment.

It's great when players choose that. If they're happy, and they get to stay, then I'm happy. It works best when there are multiple options. DRC chose differently a couple of years ago, and missed out on the Super Bowl. Now that Malik HAS his Super Bowl, he can prioritize the cash and make sure he's set for life. I don't blame him in any way.

That's a reason it's hard to keep Super-Bowl-caliber teams together. Elway seems to be doing a pretty good job of keeping the train rolling, though, despite some guys needing to get off.

[G_Money]

I'd rather have our best WR compared to our 4th best front 7 player.

Now somebody teach our best receiver how to catch again and we'll be all right.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Now somebody teach our best receiver how to catch again and we'll be all right.

It was definitely an issue last year. He was good, but not great last year in the receiving game.
His blocking ability is pretty undervalued.

[Hoshdude7]

A penetrating interior pass rush is extremely valuable and often the most over looked part of the defense. Malik should get most of the praise for the production that our OLB's got as he made them slide out

[G_Money]

A penetrating interior pass rush is extremely valuable and often the most over looked part of the defense. Malik should get most of the praise for the production that our OLB's got as he made them slide out

True. Gotsis is an interior rusher too, though. He's as raw as Malik was so I doubt he will do this year what Malik did last year - growth will need to happen. But we got a guy who should help with that and is about 15 million dollars a year cheaper.

[MOtorboat]

Jared Crick. Plug and play, and I don't expect Denver to miss a beat.

[G_Money]

Jared Crick. Plug and play, and I don't expect Denver to miss a beat.

Crick isn't gonna be as productive as Jackson, but he doesn't have to learn anything about the scheme since he played in it for 2 years under Wade in Houston. He should be absolutely serviceable, and then we'll see whether he can find some growth back under Wade now.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

A penetrating interior pass rush is extremely valuable and often the most over looked part of the defense. Malik should get most of the praise for the production that our OLB's got as he made them slide out

Wolfe played less snaps, due to the suspension, and was double teamed more and got more pressures than Malik.
I firmly believe Malik was our 4th or 5 best front 7 player.

[MOtorboat]

Crick isn't gonna be as productive as Jackson, but he doesn't have to learn anything about the scheme since he played in it for 2 years under Wade in Houston. He should be absolutely serviceable, and then we'll see whether he can find some growth back under Wade now.

He'll old the edge with Williams well and let Miller, Wolfe and Ware to do their thing. He has been solid opposite Watt for four years. I believe he started immediately.

[G_Money]

He'll old the edge with Williams well and let Miller, Wolfe and Ware to do their thing. He has been solid opposite Watt for four years. I believe he started immediately.

He didn't start for 2 years in Texas, but that doesn't mean he can't handle his business now. I think Crick will be pretty good for us too, but I do expect some dropoff from Jackson. If not, then Wade Phillips really is a damn genius and we need to stick his head in one of those Futurama bottles and keep him around forever.

[silkamilkamonico]

I'd rather have our best WR compared to our 4th best front 7 player.

Our best WR is Sanders and we might lose him I but don't think we will.

Jackson is going to be really hard to replace and I don't think we will. But we couldn't really re-sign him either. They'll find ways to plug in play different guys t find something that works. Lot of good players in a very good system. The best thing Denver has going for itself on the Denver side is a great system. System trumps players any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[OrangeHoof]

We moved on without Decker.
We moved on without Moreno.
We moved on without Julius Thomas.
We moved on without DRC
We moved on without Pot Roast
We moved on without Welker

I would have loved to have kept most of them but we let them walk and we have a Lombardi without them. That's the way this works. It's a mature franchise that has to manage their cap carefully. In all honesty, the best teams stay on top by getting and keeping the best coaches as well as the best players.

Another part of the churn is the compensation for unsigned free agents. New England can lose draft picks because they get extra bonus picks each year for letting a certain number of FAs walk. It's how the game is played.

[Poet]

Elway wouldn't have done that anyway. He's been very vocal about not dedicating too many resources to one position on the team because it hurts too much in other areas. Malik was not getting paid by us.

Whether we should have kept Wolfe or Jackson is up for debate, but I thought the rumor was that they made the same offer to both dudes, first one to take it gets it, and Wolfe took it.

Wolfe: 4/36 million with 17+ guaranteed
Malik: 6/85.5 million with 30 million guaranteed and another 5 million in bonuses.

Malik was absolutely right not to sign the deal. His guarantees are almost as much as Wolfe's entire deal. And in return, he can't play here. Wolfe made the same decision Chris Harris made: to take "enough" money and stick around Denver longer to enjoy winning and not have to endure a craptastic environment.

It's great when players choose that. If they're happy, and they get to stay, then I'm happy. It works best when there are multiple options. DRC chose differently a couple of years ago, and missed out on the Super Bowl. Now that Malik HAS his Super Bowl, he can prioritize the cash and make sure he's set for life. I don't blame him in any way.

That's a reason it's hard to keep Super-Bowl-caliber teams together. Elway seems to be doing a pretty good job of keeping the train rolling, though, despite some guys needing to get off.

I really like this a lot. The salary cap era pushes a lot of very linear and binary decisions on teams and players. You mentioned in another post that New England has the habit of letting an expensive guy walk while simultaneously signing a slightly less productive player and his replacement. That is very astute; I would like to add that when a team does this, they can sometimes sign multiple 'lesser but still good players' to reasonable deals. Green Bay won't pay its WR's megabucks, but they will dole out solid contracts to keep a strong corp together. I think it possible that Denver might take that same approach with the defensive line. This gets easier to do when you take the aforementioned 'New England' approach.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Our best WR is Sanders, lol. Uh-huh...

[silkamilkamonico]

Our best WR is Sanders, lol. Uh-huh...

Sanders is the Broncos best WR right now. He's been for the last year. He's not only the Broncos most consistent WR, but he's the most dynamic. Not a knock at all on Thomas, or any other WR on the roster. It's a testament to just how good Sanders is.

[Northman]

Elway wouldn't have done that anyway. He's been very vocal about not dedicating too many resources to one position on the team because it hurts too much in other areas. Malik was not getting paid by us.

Whether we should have kept Wolfe or Jackson is up for debate, but I thought the rumor was that they made the same offer to both dudes, first one to take it gets it, and Wolfe took it.

Wolfe: 4/36 million with 17+ guaranteed
Malik: 6/85.5 million with 30 million guaranteed and another 5 million in bonuses.

Malik was absolutely right not to sign the deal. His guarantees are almost as much as Wolfe's entire deal. And in return, he can't play here. Wolfe made the same decision Chris Harris made: to take "enough" money and stick around Denver longer to enjoy winning and not have to endure a craptastic environment.

It's great when players choose that. If they're happy, and they get to stay, then I'm happy. It works best when there are multiple options. DRC chose differently a couple of years ago, and missed out on the Super Bowl. Now that Malik HAS his Super Bowl, he can prioritize the cash and make sure he's set for life. I don't blame him in any way.

That's a reason it's hard to keep Super-Bowl-caliber teams together. Elway seems to be doing a pretty good job of keeping the train rolling, though, despite some guys needing to get off.

I also thought it was very telling just how much Wolfe wanted to remain a Bronco. Malik seemed pretty indifferent when all was said and done.

[G_Money]

I also thought it was very telling just how much Wolfe wanted to remain a Bronco. Malik seemed pretty indifferent when all was said and done.

Good call. We've talked a bunch about building a team that is like the Patriots in managing the cap and making sure nobody's bigger than the team, but it's also looking like a melding of that idea with the Steelers, who want players who identify with Steelers Football and treat it much like college affiliation rather than a 9-to-5 job. John keeps saying "we want players who want to be Broncos" and he seems pretty serious about that. Our identity for the foreseeable future is going to be defined by Kubiak's offense, and hopefully Wade's simply-brutal D (or a Wade disciple who can carry that on if/when he retires).

We tried to get a Wade disciple to run it the first time (Vance Joseph) but when the Bengals turned us down we got the real thing instead. Thanks Cincy!

Joseph is now cutting his teeth with the Dolphins, but hopefully there is someone around who understands defense and can step up when Wade retires. Kubes didn't have a lot of luck getting a decent DC before Wade took the job, and I'd hate to be in that position again.

There's a lot to be said for having an identifiable philosophy on both sides of the ball and adding players who want to be in that kind of situation - and win while they're there.

[Joel]

Some of the most impactful defenders are the 3-4 DEs. Many times they do not get the notoriety that they deserve and some do.

JJ Watt is a 3-4 DE for example. Yes, traditionally the NT did get most of the rep and they are still valuable no doubt. However, in the growing pass happy league and the emphasis being placed on "pocket passers" it is as much about pushing the pocket.
Watt's the exception because he's a force of nature, but pushing the pocket is one of the primary reason 350 lb. Kong NTs are "huge" in every sense of the word. 3-4 DEs complement them in both the run and pass game; they can't be scrubs, but Watt's among the few who does so much defenses can be built around him.


That btw has always been Brady's great kryptonite. If you notice he becomes very ordinary when he doesn't have a sterilized pocket to step into. Typically, a 3-4 defense offers the best chance since a DC can dial up different looks as far as blitz packages. Zones etc.

Anyway, Malik Jackson provided definite push and made teams adjust to it during games. I just saw a lot more effectiveness with the edge rushing since many times the pocket was pushed back. Wolfe was also a big contributor.
Wolfe AND Sly were each BIGGER contributors than Jackson, IMHO, and why it worked. That, and having Ware/Ray opposite Von/Shaq.

As long as [your Jackson successor here] can keep his mans attention and Sly can consistently draw double teams to prevent HIM collapsing the pocket, the other two blockers can't keep VonWareWolfe out of their backfield long. Few teams have bookend blockers good enough to stonewall a pair of potential HoF pass rushers, and even if one does: Who takes Wolfe? "Chip him with the RB" is not a viable solution.

Now, opponents might keep a TE or two at the line to shore up their blocking, but if they're blocking 4 guys with 7 we've already won. There are also few teams with 3 WRs good enough to get open when the NFLs best CB trio AND Marshall AND Stewart have them outnumbered almost 2:1 even if Ward hangs deep to play robber.

Again, Malik Jackson's a good versatile player and I would've liked to keep him: But we can find someone to do his job as good or better for WAY less than $10M/yr. And will; we may have ALREADY done it with Vance Walker, Adam Gotsis and/or Kyle Peko.


He'll old the edge with Williams well and let Miller, Wolfe and Ware to do their thing. He has been solid opposite Watt for four years. I believe he started immediately.
I completely forgot about Crick, but yeah, that's a 3-4 DEs job description, and we've got FOUR guys (plus Wolfe) who can do it: So why pay >$10M/yr for a sixth?

[Simple Jaded]

You can't pay your 5th-6th best player on defense $15/per, that throws everything outta whack, if the Broncos miss him they miss but the one they could not do was keep him.

DT is a far, far better player anyway, one of the best at his position.

[Simple Jaded]

I also thought it was very telling just how much Wolfe wanted to remain a Bronco. Malik seemed pretty indifferent when all was said and done.

Indifferent is a good word until after he signed with Jagoffs, from then on I think Butthurt is a better word.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

You can't pay your 5th-6th best player on defense $15/per, that throws everything outta whack, if the Broncos miss him they miss but the one they could not do was keep him.

DT is a far, far better player anyway, one of the best at his position.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

[Broncoknight30]

Broncos fans, after what we just all witnessed, puts such a high value on DT over Malik? Strange.

One, in my OP I made it rather clear that I know Malik could not be signed due to the economic realities. Really no need to tell me about it since I said it in the original post.

Two, my concern is how that level of production is going to be replaced. Not that I wanted the Broncos to give him ALL of that money that he got.

Three, how many Broncos fans actually saw the production (or lack there of) from DT in the play off run?

I noticed it, since it was so apparent. He had what 1 catch for 8 yards against in the SB. He had what, 2 catches for 12 yards against the Pats. How many drops did he have? I stopped counting at 10. Pretty sure he led the league and all of that is AFTER he signed the monster contract.

Little surprised by Broncos fans not seeing how valuable an inside interior rush is to a team. Especially this team.

Little surprised. Actually quite shocked.

Do not need to tell me again about the economic reality. Just to reiterate I acknowledged it in the OP. Just that I know how hard it is to find someone that can penetrate like that. 5th or 6th best on the front 7 last year?

Wow

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Broncos fans, after what we just all witnessed, puts such a high value on DT over Malik? Strange.

One, in my OP I made it rather clear that I know Malik could not be signed due to the economic realities. Really no need to tell me about it since I said it in the original post.

Two, my concern is how that level of production is going to be replaced. Not that I wanted the Broncos to give him ALL of that money that he got.

Three, how many Broncos fans actually saw the production (or lack there of) from DT in the play off run?

I noticed it, since it was so apparent. He had what 1 catch for 8 yards against in the SB. He had what, 2 catches for 12 yards against the Pats. How many drops did he have? I stopped counting at 10. Pretty sure he led the league and all of that is AFTER he signed the monster contract.

Little surprised by Broncos fans not seeing how valuable an inside interior rush is to a team. Especially this team.

Little surprised. Actually quite shocked.

Do not need to tell me again about the economic reality. Just to reiterate I acknowledged it in the OP. Just that I know how hard it is to find someone that can penetrate like that. 5th or 6th best on the front 7 last year?

Wow
I said he was 4th or 5the best in the front seven (after Miller, Ware, and Wolfe).
Jaded said he was 5th or 6th best on the defense, and he might be right. Talib, Harris, and Ward are all pretty valuable as well.

[Broncoknight30]

I said he was 4th or 5the best in the front seven (after Miller, Ware, and Wolfe).
Jaded said he was 5th or 6th best on the defense, and he might be right. Talib, Harris, and Ward are all pretty valuable as well.

My point is I am hoping we have a guy on the roster that will be able to adequately replace him. I get the impression that many Broncos fans underestimated that sort of player. The interior push causes real havoc, especially on QBs like Brady.

I do think Malik Jackson is unique talent in that regard and will not be so easy to replace imo. Therefore, the pressure that we all saw in the play off run and all year may not be as dynamic as a result of his loss.

Yes, they had no choice, but I value that skill more than I do of DT. DT has all of the potential and he has big moments, but we should know as fans what is better to have.

Let me put it this way. In SB48, DT I think broke Jerry Rice's record for receptions. Had 13 receptions for 118yards and a TD. Great for fantasy football, but really meant very little. IN SB50 he had 1 catch for 8 yards. That pretty much illustrates that point in a nutshell.

I guess I was very frustrated all year by DTs drops after they committed so many dollars to him. Combine that with knowing how hard it is to find a penetrating interior D lineman.

I trust Elway no doubt. I am hoping they find a way to replace that production.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'm honestly not sure they will be able to replace him.

[Broncoknight30]

I'm honestly not sure they will be able to replace him.

Yeah, unfortunately I think you are right. There is always hope. :beer:

[Northman]

It was said before in this thread that many people said we could not replace Pot Roast, but we did. As to DT, the whole offense this past year was anemic at best so the offense in its entirety was not that explosive and personally i didnt expect it to be any different going into the playoffs or even the SB. I guess i just dont understand the issue here, Elway has done a great job of finding replacements when he has needed to and while Malik was good he wasnt going to get paid by Denver when the team had other needs to fulfill. You keep saying you understand that Denver couldnt give Malik the money yet it just doesnt seem to be sinking in because that is why he is gone to begin with. So either you can accept that he couldnt be kept or you are saying that Denver should of thrown the money at him. Im just confused why this is even an issue at this point in time. Denver even drafted a DT this year so the whole freaking out about the position is weird to me.

[Broncoknight30]

It was said before in this thread that many people said we could not replace Pot Roast, but we did. As to DT, the whole offense this past year was anemic at best so the offense in its entirety was not that explosive and personally i didnt expect it to be any different going into the playoffs or even the SB. I guess i just dont understand the issue here, Elway has done a great job of finding replacements when he has needed to and while Malik was good he wasnt going to get paid by Denver when the team had other needs to fulfill. You keep saying you understand that Denver couldnt give Malik the money yet it just doesnt seem to be sinking in because that is why he is gone to begin with. So either you can accept that he couldnt be kept or you are saying that Denver should of thrown the money at him. Im just confused why this is even an issue at this point in time. Denver even drafted a DT this year so the whole freaking out about the position is weird to me.

Pot Roast was a totally different type of player than Jackson. He was a run stopping player and ironically would have been a real good NT in a 3-4 scheme. I have mentioned SEVERAL TIMES including in the OP that the economics makes it such that they could not keep him.

You are confused by the issue? I am just wondering how his production is going to replaced. I also mentioned and it really seems to be true that many Broncos fans underestimate the value of a penetrating pass rushing interior lineman, which POT ROAST WAS NOT. You keep bringing him up as though they are the same types of players. They really are not the same types.

So, the reason DT dropped so many passes was because the offense was so anemic? Is that logical? I think he led the league in drops. He also seemed to be lethargic in many of his routes. It was not just me who saw it. As I said, his production or lack there of meant little. Since, you know the Broncos actually won it. However, they won it almost ENTIRELY due to their dynamic pass rush, which Malik jackson played a major role in.

I am wondering if anyone has any theories as to how his production will be replaced. What, does that question offend you? Apparently it does.

Hilarious.

[Northman]

Pot Roast was a totally different type of player than Jackson. He was a run stopping player and ironically would have been a real good NT in a 3-4 scheme. I have mentioned SEVERAL TIMES including in the OP that the economics makes it such that they could not keep him.

So you are claiming that Pot Roast was ineffective? Thats cute. Yes, Jackson is better but the overall point being made is that people whined (like you are now) that he couldnt be replaced and that Denver should throw all the money at him. Welp, they were wrong.


So, the reason DT dropped so many passes was because the offense was so anemic? Is that logical? I think he led the league in drops.

No, he didnt lead the league although it may have seemed like it the way the season had gone on. He was high on the list this year but not the leader.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2015/


I am wondering if anyone has any theories as to how his production will be replaced.

LMAO

What theory does anyone really need? OMG, who will replace Peyton Manning!!!??!?!?!!

Fact is, you draft or sign a FA and plug them in. Either they dont work or they do but you dont overpay for a guy when you are cap strapped the way Denver is. Its not rocket science here.

[BroncoJoe]

How do you know we don't have a comparable player to Jackson?

As to DT, I think there were a couple things going on. 1) Manning's decline. Passes getting there a lot slower than normal. 2) a bunch of personal stuff - his Mom being released from prison, missing camp because of the contract issue, etc.

I think a lot of what you're trying to say is based on hysteria. Can we just wait and see what and/or who actually gets on the field and their production before going all apeshit? There is no answer to your question until we see his replacement play.

Hilarious.

[Broncoknight30]

So you are claiming that Pot Roast was ineffective? Thats cute. Yes, Jackson is better but the overall point being made is that people whined (like you are now) that he couldnt be replaced and that Denver should throw all the money at him. Welp, they were wrong.



No, he didnt lead the league although it may have seemed like it the way the season had gone on. He was high on the list this year but not the leader.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2015/



LMAO

What theory does anyone really need? OMG, who will replace Peyton Manning!!!??!?!?!!

Fact is, you draft or sign a FA and plug them in. Either they dont work or they do but you dont overpay for a guy when you are cap strapped the way Denver is. Its not rocket science here.

on ignore. Did I say Pot Roast was ineffective? No, I didn't. I said he was a different type of player than Malik. Me asking how the production of Malik was going to be replaced confused you and offended you?



Oh, ok so DT was not the "leader" but was high on the list. Glad you cleared that up.

[Northman]

Bwhahahahahahaaahaha. Yep, as i figured.

[Broncoknight30]

How do you know we don't have a comparable player to Jackson?

As to DT, I think there were a couple things going on. 1) Manning's decline. Passes getting there a lot slower than normal. 2) a bunch of personal stuff - his Mom being released from prison, missing camp because of the contract issue, etc.

I think a lot of what you're trying to say is based on hysteria. Can we just wait and see what and/or who actually gets on the field and their production before going all apeshit? There is no answer to your question until we see his replacement play.

Hilarious.

I don't know if the Broncos have a player that can replace Jackson. That was the point of the thread.

Hilarious.

Wow, let me know what threads I am allowed to start on this site so it does not offend the delicate sensibilities of Broncos fans. Oh, and the decline of Manning is no excuse for DT's lack of production and his lethargic attempts and the number of drops. He is being paid top dollar.

Either way, a penetrating interior lineman is more valuable to a team imo than DT. The tale of the 2015 and 2013 Broncos teams proves that.

Hilarious.

[Northman]

The Butthurt with this one is strong.

[BroncoJoe]

You might get better responses if you didn't come across as such a condescending ass.

Or, you can just simply tell us how we should respond.

Hilarious.

[Northman]

You might get better responses if you didn't come across as such a condescending ass.

Or, you can just simply tell us how we should respond.

Hilarious.

Kind of weird.

Guy posts topic, people respond and explain their points of view and said guy gets defensive about it.

[G_Money]

The question is whether it's the player, the scheme, or both. How do we expect Malik to do in Jax facing constant double teams on a defensive line as he plays more tackle than end? Jackson is an aggressive, athletic guy who fit what we want to do perfectly.

But Wade has done pretty well in his life with table scraps (see: taking the Texans from the 29th-best scoring defense to 4th the year he arrived). I agree that push up the middle is important, especially collapsing the interior of the pocket on passing downs. And I expect to miss Malik's ability to do that consistently. But Wade knows what the defense needs to, and he's gotten it from far less talented teams than the one he's got now.

Can Crick and Gotsis do what Malik did? I dunno. Will Malik do in Jacksonville what he did here? I doubt it (although the Titans are also going old-school with fellow AARP coordinator-overseer Dick Lebeau helping Horton out again). Do I think Wade can make the defense function correctly without Malik, even if he has to add a few wrinkles to get that middle pressure? Absolutely. Malik was a good player executing the scheme, but not a top-10 defensive player in the league (which is what he's getting paid as). He got paid for his production in the scheme that won the Super Bowl, but the team that would best know whether he can be replaced is the one that had him in the scheme and designs the scheme in the first place.

We can find someone else to do what Malik did - and may have already.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=szrof4WJsKw

[Northman]

The question is whether it's the player, the scheme, or both. How do we expect Malik to do in Jax facing constant double teams on a defensive line as he plays more tackle than end? Jackson is an aggressive, athletic guy who fit what we want to do perfectly.

But Wade has done pretty well in his life with table scraps (see: taking the Texans from the 29th-best scoring defense to 4th the year he arrived). I agree that push up the middle is important, especially collapsing the interior of the pocket on passing downs. And I expect to miss Malik's ability to do that consistently. But Wade knows what the defense needs to, and he's gotten it from far less talented teams than the one he's got now.

Can Crick and Gotsis do what Malik did? I dunno. Will Malik do in Jacksonville what he did here? I doubt it (although the Titans are also going old-school with fellow AARP coordinator-overseer Dick Lebeau helping Horton out again). Do I think Wade can make the defense function correctly without Malik, even if he has to add a few wrinkles to get that middle pressure? Absolutely. Malik was a good player executing the scheme, but not a top-10 defensive player in the league (which is what he's getting paid as). He got paid for his production in the scheme that won the Super Bowl, but the team that would best know whether he can be replaced is the one that had him in the scheme and designs the scheme in the first place.

We can find someone else to do what Malik did - and may have already.

Exactly.

[Joel]

Wow, let me know what threads I am allowed to start on this site so it does not offend the delicate sensibilities of Broncos fans.
And if you can make it a sticky that would really help a LOT of people; TIA. :tongue:

[BroncoJoe]

Kind of weird.

Guy posts topic, people respond and explain their points of view and said guy gets defensive about it.

I'm still a bit confused as to the "DT's lack of production" comment. 7th in receptions and yards.

Hilarious.

[Northman]

I'm still a bit confused as to the "DT's lack of production" comment.

Hilarious.

Yea, i was going to go there but i went on the assumption he just started watching the Broncos last year.

[Broncoknight30]

You might get better responses if you didn't come across as such a condescending ass.

Or, you can just simply tell us how we should respond.

Hilarious.

I responded in kind. The moron said I said pot roast was ineffective. He then makes claims that this is a stupid thread cause I had the unmitigated gall to ask how Jackson's production might be replaced and that it is harder than we may think to replace it

You then say I am condescending?

Hilarious.


I hope he continues to say the reason DT had so many drops was because Manning was in decline.

Sanders did not have as many.

Hilarious.

[Broncoknight30]

I'm still a bit confused as to the "DT's lack of production" comment. 7th in receptions and yards.

Hilarious.

Oh, so you did not notice his great production in the play offs?

Hilarious

[NightTrainLayne]

Hey guys, this thread is starting to move into the realm of personal attacks. If everyone could dial it back a bit it would be appreciated.

Thanks, :salute:

[Timmy!]

Hey guys, this thread is starting to move into the realm of personal attacks. If everyone could dial it back a bit it would be appreciated.

Thanks, :salute:

Hilarious. :heh:

[MOtorboat]

The Broncos have about four candidates who could replace Jackson. There are none who could replace Thomas.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The Broncos have about four candidates who could replace Jackson. There are none who could replace Thomas.

There's probably only 4 or 5 Guys in the league who can do what Thomas does.

[MOtorboat]

There's probably only 4 or 5 Guys in the league who can do what Thomas does.

Yep.

[Timmy!]

The Broncos have about four candidates who could replace Jackson. There are none who could replace Thomas.

Cody Latimer!

Sincerely,
Dave

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Yep.

Maybe since he had a lot of drops last year we should trade him for a conditional 4th?

[MOtorboat]

Maybe since he had a lot of drops last year we should trade him for a conditional 4th?

Sounds like a great idea.

Signed, all 31 other teams.

[Broncoknight30]

I thought Thomas was a very good draft pick and he has produced. He provides significant size and speed that is rarely seen.

He should be an asset for years to come. I hope. His production lacked at the end of the season. His play off production was dreadful.

I suspect he will have good production still as Kubiak's vision of the stretch run balanced offense is implemented. Last year, it was virtually impossible to have that offense since Manning was totally incapable of running the stretch zone system that relies on QBs ability to run the bootleg keeper action.

DT should do well in it. However, I think many are underestimating how hard it is to find that interior pentatrating rusher. Hopefully Elway and Wade have a plan to compensate for his loss. I am Sure they will.

[Valar Morghulis]

Cody Latimer! Sincerely, Dave

Wait until he lights it up this season. #nostradave

[Poet]

Obviously Jackson is going to a guy who is missed. If nothing else, he certainly turned into a monster during the postseason and you always find an appreciation for guys like that. However, he's not a once in a generation type of guy. There will probably be a dropoff, but Crick is a guy who fill in as a stopgap.

[BroncoJoe]

Did someone hack Cugel's account?

[BroncoBuckeye73]

To me Malik was a beneficiary of our strong pass rushing olbs than being a truley dominating force of nature. In fact Wolfe does everything he did and does it better in many ways. If I am right if we get 10 sacks out of a rotation that fills his place then we have equalled that production at a fraction of his price. As far as DT goes you do realize he has for the last 5 seasons averaged 1400 yds, 100 catches and 10 touchdowns which seems to me to be more valuable than 7 to 8 sacks and atleast 2 personal fouls a game.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Sounds like a great idea.

Signed, all 31 other teams.

:laugh:

[Jsteve01]

Okay I need to establish some things here Bronco night do you think wolfe or Jackson was the better player last year? Also how in the world anyone could think that Jackson at 15 million / when he's a guy that only generated five sacks last year in his first year as a starter is a better value than Thomas who is a perennial pro bowler and still in any conversation would be among the top 5 receivers in the league.

And I'm sorry but the assertion that Sanders is a better receiver than Thomas is just ridiculous he's fantastic but there's a reason that he gets so many good looks and it's because DT demands double teams

[Broncoknight30]

Okay I need to establish some things here Bronco night do you think wolfe or Jackson was the better player last year? Also how in the world anyone could think that Jackson at 15 million / when he's a guy that only generated five sacks last year in his first year as a starter is a better value than Thomas who is a perennial pro bowler and still in any conversation would be among the top 5 receivers in the league.

And I'm sorry but the assertion that Sanders is a better receiver than Thomas is just ridiculous he's fantastic but there's a reason that he gets so many good looks and it's because DT demands double teams

Fans thinking sacks and QB pressures as the same thing are ignorant about the game. His ability to apply pressure and push the pocket is a unique and underrated skill that is OBVIOUSLY lost on many fans.

You also OBVIOUSLY missed how the Broncos just WON THE SB. The entire play off run, culminating in a SB win had nothing to do whatsoever with DT. I showed one example of the types of middle pressure put on Brady where he had no place to step into. Yes, that is one example and if you want watch the copy of SB that you probably have on DVR or the championship game against the Pats. Watch the penetration from Wolfe AND Jackson. Watch them yourself.

I also said the Broncos could not afford him. I know many must have missed that aspect of my ORIGINAL POST. I asked if we think the Broncos would be able adequately replace the production that most of the fans on this site underrate.

It is almost as though most fans every single play off game and missed the entire SB.

[G_Money]

I'm not really sure why you are on a message board at this point, BK30. If you don't want to talk about Malik but just want everyone to agree with you (and call everybody who disagrees with you in any way an idiot who doesn't understand football) then it seems pointless to have conversations.

Hot takes are for sports radio where you can hang up on people who disagree with you and get some ratings. Step it back a notch so we can have a conversation, would ya? We have 4 months until the season starts, and until then it's all opinion, preference and debate.

I'd rather talk football rather than get into a pissing contest about which side has more football smarts. And I'd rather be talking to you about it as well - I like passionate dialogue.

Just drink a little less caffeine or something...

[Broncoknight30]

I'm not really sure why you are on a message board at this point, BK30. If you don't want to talk about Malik but just want everyone to agree with you (and call everybody who disagrees with you in any way an idiot who doesn't understand football) then it seems pointless to have conversations.

Hot takes are for sports radio where you can hang up on people who disagree with you and get some ratings. Step it back a notch so we can have a conversation, would ya? We have 4 months until the season starts, and until then it's all opinion, preference and debate.

I'd rather talk football rather than get into a pissing contest about which side has more football smarts. And I'd rather be talking to you about it as well - I like passionate dialogue.

Just drink a little less caffeine or something...

This is a pissing contest? Please explain. Me pointing out the lack of production of DT and the fact that QB pressures and sacks are different are not facts to you? This is me needing to drink less caffeine?

Yet, you say you like "passionate dialogue?"

What does a passionate dialogue mean to you? Again, explain the pissing contest Trust me, I have been treated very disrespectfully. All I did was point out the loss of Malik and how it may hurt and what his production meant in the play off run.
.
I am talked to in a condescending way in which I respond with facts. I also pointed out how DT could be great but he had little to no impact in the play off run. Which he didn't. That means I need less caffeine to you?

[Jsteve01]

Fans thinking sacks and QB pressures as the same thing are ignorant about the game. His ability to apply pressure and push the pocket is a unique and underrated skill that is OBVIOUSLY lost on many fans.

You also OBVIOUSLY missed how the Broncos just WON THE SB. The entire play off run, culminating in a SB win had nothing to do whatsoever with DT. I showed one example of the types of middle pressure put on Brady where he had no place to step into. Yes, that is one example and if you want watch the copy of SB that you probably have on DVR or the championship game against the Pats. Watch the penetration from Wolfe AND Jackson. Watch them yourself.

I also said the Broncos could not afford him. I know many must have missed that aspect of my ORIGINAL POST. I asked if we think the Broncos would be able adequately replace the production that most of the fans on this site underrate.

It is almost as though most fans every single play off game and missed the entire SB.

Dude you can shelve the condescending bs. The analogy between Jackson and Dt is mularkey. And I asked a simple question do you think wolfe or Jackson was the better player? Yes I think that Jackson will be missed, but not nearly as much as you're representing. He had a fantastic year last year in part because of the system and because of the staff wade's penetrating 3-4, combined with Kollar's coaching ( he is the best 3-4 line coach in the league) contributed mightily to Jackson growing from a rotational player to an impact starter but as has been said. Von ware wolfe talib Marshall Harris and Ward are all more important to this defense.

[Poet]

I don't think the fans on this site undervalue what Jackson did for the team this year. Let's be honest, this was Jackson's best year, and there is a very real way in which Jacksonville is banking on Jackson's outlier season being the norm.

[Joel]

Okay I need to establish some things here Bronco night do you think wolfe or Jackson was the better player last year? Also how in the world anyone could think that Jackson at 15 million / when he's a guy that only generated five sacks last year in his first year as a starter is a better value than Thomas who is a perennial pro bowler and still in any conversation would be among the top 5 receivers in the league.

And I'm sorry but the assertion that Sanders is a better receiver than Thomas is just ridiculous he's fantastic but there's a reason that he gets so many good looks and it's because DT demands double teams
Well, he's got a very valid point that (contrary to popular belief) sacks aren't the sole measure of defensive linemen. But Jackson was neither our only nor best guy at collapsing pockets, swallowing up double teams and smothering runs. That's not (just) my opinion, but that of the NFL playoff coaches we faced: Ask Rivera, Belicheat or Tomlin why they double teamed Sly at the expense of leaving Jackson one-on-one instead of the reverse.

I'm not calling him JaGson; he's been a key player his whole career, from Wolfes scary season-ending injury temporarily promoted him to starter, through our championship run. But he's about our 3rd best guy at the very thing that supposedly makes him so indispensable: That doesn't compute. Just a year ago he was Wolfes BACKUP until Knightons departure and our new DC created a need for a second starting 3-4 DE.

He had roleplaying duties, and we've got TWO better pocket-pushers PLUS two more impatiently waiting in the wings: We'll get by alright.

[Simple Jaded]

Sign Dominique Easley, might help.

Imma problem solver, you are welcome.

[Jsteve01]

Well, he's got a very valid point that (contrary to popular belief) sacks aren't the sole measure of defensive linemen. But Jackson was neither our only nor best guy at collapsing pockets, swallowing up double teams and smothering runs. That's not (just) my opinion, but that of the NFL playoff coaches we faced: Ask Rivera, Belicheat or Tomlin why they double teamed Sly at the expense of leaving Jackson one-on-one instead of the reverse.

I'm not calling him JaGson; he's been a key player his whole career, from Wolfes scary season-ending injury temporarily promoted him to starter, through our championship run. But he's about our 3rd best guy at the very thing that supposedly makes him so indispensable: That doesn't compute. Just a year ago he was Wolfes BACKUP until Knightons departure and our new DC created a need for a second starting 3-4 DE.

He had roleplaying duties, and we've got TWO better pocket-pushers PLUS two more impatiently waiting in the wings: We'll get by alright.

Never said that collapsing the pocket isnt a huge asset. What I did say comma was that Derek Wolfe was the better player. He has been since his rookie year. I also firmly believe that Wade Phillips style of penetrating 3-4 contributed greatly to Malik Jackson success last year

[Northman]

I'm not really sure why you are on a message board at this point, BK30. If you don't want to talk about Malik but just want everyone to agree with you (and call everybody who disagrees with you in any way an idiot who doesn't understand football) then it seems pointless to have conversations.

Hot takes are for sports radio where you can hang up on people who disagree with you and get some ratings. Step it back a notch so we can have a conversation, would ya? We have 4 months until the season starts, and until then it's all opinion, preference and debate.

I'd rather talk football rather than get into a pissing contest about which side has more football smarts. And I'd rather be talking to you about it as well - I like passionate dialogue.

Just drink a little less caffeine or something...


Ding Ding Ding.

Up until post #36 nobody was being disrespectful or condescending. It all began with Knight's inability to accept another point of view.

[Jsteve01]

Yeah the old...average fans just dont get it argument. We all get what he did. Wolfe did it in pairs.

[chazoe60]

Malik who? Why is this even a debate? The Jags overpaid for a guy and the Broncos didn't, end of discussion. If you think the Broncos should have paid Malik the $85M or whatever he got then all I can say is I'm glad John Elway is running this team and not you.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Never said that collapsing the pocket isnt a huge asset. What I did say comma was that Derek Wolfe was the better player. He has been since his rookie year. I also firmly believe that Wade Phillips style of penetrating 3-4 contributed greatly to Malik Jackson success last year

Using speak text huh? :D

[Cugel]

Malik who? Why is this even a debate? The Jags overpaid for a guy and the Broncos didn't, end of discussion. If you think the Broncos should have paid Malik the $85M or whatever he got then all I can say is I'm glad John Elway is running this team and not you.

You're right. Malik got an insane contract:


Malik Jackson signed a 5 year, $85,500,000 contract with the Jacksonville Jaguars, including a $10,000,000 signing bonus, $42,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $17,100,000. In 2016, Jackson will earn a base salary of $8,000,000 and a signing bonus of $10,000,000. (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/malik-jackson/) Jackson has a cap hit of $10,000,000 while his dead money value is $31,500,000.

Sweet baby-Jesus, $18,000,000 for 2016?! $42,000,000 guaranteed? :eek:

The Broncos offered him around $11,000,000 a year. They weren't even close to the Jacksonville offer.

Jacksonville is run by very stupid people, which is why they always lose. They signed Zane Beadles and paid him around $6M a year (5-year, $30M contract) because he started for the 2013 SB Broncos. After 2 years they released him this off-season.

"Gee, maybe he wasn't worth that kind of money after all."

[Northman]

Jaguars better hope he can deliver because they dont have a D-Ware or Von Miller on their team.

[Cugel]

Jaguars better hope he can deliver because they dont have a D-Ware or Von Miller on their team.

That's why he's not going to be worth the money to Jacksonville. Suddenly HE's going to be the one getting double-teamed on every play. Nobody ever could double-team Malik because that would leave Von Miller, DeMarcus Ware, Sylvester Williams, in single coverage.

I think the Broncos anticipate that Derek Wolfe will continue to develop as a pass-rusher. When he came in, he had zero pass rush skills, but last year he had 5.5 sacks and developed into an adequate, if not good, pass-rusher.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Wow, they're giving Malik QB money, or at least franchise defensive player type of money.

[TXBRONC]

I don't know if the Broncos have a player that can replace Jackson. That was the point of the thread.

Hilarious.

Wow, let me know what threads I am allowed to start on this site so it does not offend the delicate sensibilities of Broncos fans. Oh, and the decline of Manning is no excuse for DT's lack of production and his lethargic attempts and the number of drops. He is being paid top dollar.

Either way, a penetrating interior lineman is more valuable to a team imo than DT. The tale of the 2015 and 2013 Broncos teams proves that.

Hilarious.

Wade Phillips is one of the best defensive coordinator in the League, so whomever he puts out there will do a solid job.

[slim]

Wow, they're giving Malik QB money, or at least franchise defensive player type of money.

For a guy that was at best the 6th best player on the Broncos defense.

[Hawgdriver]

Fortunately the guy who was doubled is still on the team,

You read my mind!

[Joel]

Never said that collapsing the pocket isnt a huge asset.
Not as such, but the only evidence you cited that Jackson's not worth top money was his low sack total: That doesn't address BKs claim that he creates so many sacks for OTHER people that he's worth top dollar DESPITE his own low sack total.


What I did say comma was that Derek Wolfe was the better player. He has been since his rookie year. I also firmly believe that Wade Phillips style of penetrating 3-4 contributed greatly to Malik Jackson success last year
Much better arguments, IMHO, and I wholly agree. When healthy, Wolfe always pushed the pocket well enough to keep Jackson on the bench in our 4-3, and Sly's our 3-4 NT for a reason. Jackson was our 3rd best AT best when it came to collapsing pockets and denying QBs anywhere to step up and avoid Von and Ware. One could argue Walker did such a good job during Wolfes suspension and then for 15 games rotating with Sly that Jackson was only our 4th best.

That's just guys who were ALREADY on the team, but now we've signed a 3-4 starter (Crick,) spent a 2nd rounder on another potential starter (Gotsis) and added a third raw but talented guy with a high motor as an UDFA (Peko.) I'm glad Jackson helped us and himself get a Ring and is now getting financially rewarded as well, but we won't miss him (really.) Our loss is Jacksonvilles $18M one, but our GAIN (especially if it gets us a high 2017 comp; the better he plays, the happier I'll be.)

[Jsteve01]

Anunike. Has looked great during Camp each of the past two years, but not been able to stay healthy. If he is able to stay healthy this year. I think he makes some pretty serious noise.

[Joel]

Anunike. Has looked great during Camp each of the past two years, but not been able to stay healthy. If he is able to stay healthy this year. I think he makes some pretty serious noise.
Hasn't been healthy enough to play any time in TWO YEARS, and had to pack on 25 lb. last preseason just to top 270. He's a tweener picked up to rush passers in Del Rios 4-3; there's little or no evidence he could push the pocket in Wades 3-4. This time last year I figured he'd be backing Von or Ware IF healthy, but it turns out he wasn't, and we bulked him up to play DE instead. Why are Anunike fans so psyched about him? Lots of people look good in TC practices.

[TXBRONC]

For a guy that was at best the 6th best player on the Broncos defense.

What he did along with Wolfe made life much easier for Ware and Miller. Just look at the Super Bowl inside pressure he provided. Is he going to be easy to replace? Probably not but, he is replaceable.

[EastCoastBronco]

The most impressive thing I found about Malik Jackson this year was how, within the span of a couple of games, he totally cleaned up his game.
Up to a certain point last season, and the season before for that matter, he was good for at least one stupid ass 15 penalty a game.
Somewhere around mid season this past year he cleaned it up...and never looked back.
Hate to see him go but I'm glad it worked out for him.

As far as replacing him...Who Knows?
That Gotsis kid looks promising.

[chazoe60]

The most impressive thing I found about Malik Jackson this year was how, within the span of a couple of games, he totally cleaned up his game.
Up to a certain point last season, and the season before for that matter, he was good for at least one stupid ass 15 penalty a game.
Somewhere around mid season this past year he cleaned it up...and never looked back.
Hate to see him go but I'm glad it worked out for him.

As far as replacing him...Who Knows?
That Gotsis kid looks promising.

He got a 15yd penalty in the SB.

[EastCoastBronco]

Shhhhh.

[NightTerror218]

Never underestimate what philips can do with any player.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Never underestimate what philips can do with any player.

I think the rookie will do well in a rotational role.

[Ravage!!!]

What he did along with Wolfe made life much easier for Ware and Miller. Just look at the Super Bowl inside pressure he provided. Is he going to be easy to replace? Probably not but, he is replaceable.

Well... by that standard anyone is 'replaceable." But I guess that depends on your definition. Meaning, are we talking about someone just filling the same position..or someone having the same kind of production while filling that position? Because I'm pretty convinced we will have someone in that position, but not convinced at all that we will have the same production from that position.

[TXBRONC]

Well... by that standard anyone is 'replaceable." But I guess that depends on your definition. Meaning, are we talking about someone just filling the same position..or someone having the same kind of production while filling that position? Because I'm pretty convinced we will have someone in that position, but not convinced at all that we will have the same production from that position.

I'm confident that Wade Phillips will find a way.

[Joel]

Well... by that standard anyone is 'replaceable." But I guess that depends on your definition. Meaning, are we talking about someone just filling the same position..or someone having the same kind of production while filling that position? Because I'm pretty convinced we will have someone in that position, but not convinced at all that we will have the same production from that position.
I am, because a 3-4 (even Wades) doesn't demand as much of DEs as a 4-3 does. As long as Sly/Walker do their jobs inside and Von/Ray and Ware/Barrett do theirs outside, Marshall over the middle and Wolfe on the edge mean the remaining DE and ILB don't have to be great, just good enough.

[Jsteve01]

5 techniques thrive in this defense

[EastCoastBronco]

8953

[Cugel]

For a guy that was at best the 6th best player on the Broncos defense.

Maybe the 6th, maybe the 7th, behind: Von Miller, DeMarcus Ware, TJ Ward, Aquib Talib, Chris Harris Jr., and possibly either Bradley Roby or Danny Trevathan. Elway said back last season that it would be difficult to keep both Malik and Derek Wolfe, and they chose Wolfe, who is developing into a good pass-rusher.

If Jared Crick and Gotsis combined can replace what Derek Wolfe did last year, then perhaps Wolfe can get the kind of production that Malik had: 34 Tackles, 11 assists, 5 sacks, 0 FF, 7 passes defended.

Wolfe: 35 tackles, 14 assists, 5.5 sacks, 0 FF, 2 passes defended. I'd say he's statistically about there already.

[NightTerror218]

Maybe the 6th, maybe the 7th, behind: Von Miller, DeMarcus Ware, TJ Ward, Aquib Talib, Chris Harris Jr., and possibly either Bradley Roby or Danny Trevathan. Elway said back last season that it would be difficult to keep both Malik and Derek Wolfe, and they chose Wolfe, who is developing into a good pass-rusher.

If Jared Crick and Gotsis combined can replace what Derek Wolfe did last year, then perhaps Wolfe can get the kind of production that Malik had: 34 Tackles, 11 assists, 5 sacks, 0 FF, 7 passes defended.

Wolfe: 35 tackles, 14 assists, 5.5 sacks, 0 FF, 2 passes defended. I'd say he's statistically about there already.

Your stats does mention wolfe had same stats with 1/4 less games. 4 missed games.....he out produced malik and started slow when he came back and ramped up as season went along.

[TXBRONC]

It doesn't matter where we rank the guy he played a huge role in Denver's success. As I said, he can be replaced, but that doesn't mean he wasn't an important cog.

[Joel]

It doesn't matter where we rank the guy he played a huge role Denver's success. As I said, he can be replaced, but that doesn't mean he wasn't an important cog.
That's about the size of it; I'm glad for his help getting himself and the rest of the team a Ring, and that he's doing well for himself financially as a result, but not losing any sleep over whether we can find someone to do as much or more. It's not valid to compare his contributions to those of Von or Chris Harris, because they did different things, but Wolfe, Sly and Walker do the SAME things as well or better, plus now we've got Crick, Gotsis and possibly Peko to do them, too.

I'm unsure anyone's truly indispensable in a Phillips D, but am sure Malik Jackson's not.

[NightTerror218]

I think DBs and pass rush are more important to this defense.

DL is there to collapse pocket and stop the run. We got lucky they were making impact plays too.

[Jsteve01]

I don't think that's a great assessment. Wade Phillips defensive linemen have always had a big impact

[Joel]

I think DBs and pass rush are more important to this defense.

DL is there to collapse pocket and stop the run. We got lucky they were making impact plays too.
Collapsing the pocket and stopping the run's important too. The pockets whole purpose is to give good passers a sanctuary to step into when good edge rushers get by, so good OTs can just keep them right on going right out of the play; our NT and DEs remove that luxury and leave even elusive QBs nowhere to run (ask Cam, Rapistburger or Smith.) And none of that matters if we can't stop the run first, because if teams can keep the ball consistently taking 5 and 6 yd bites out of our D till they're in our end zone, they never face 3rd and longs that force them to dare the passes greater risks for its greater rewards. As John Lynch says, "you have to earn the right to rush the passer," which is just the defenses converse of "run to establish the pass."

It's a package deal, a system, and maybe the biggest difference between Del Rios supremely talented but underperforming D versus Wades elite one is that Wade gets all the parts to work in concert as well-oiled machine instead of throwing a bunch of Pro Bowls out there and expecting each to succeed individually.

Madden's the only place D is nothing but sacks and picks. It's not that smothering runs, crushing pockets and drawing double teams that create free blitzers isn't critical, it's that we already had MULTIPLE players who do those things as well as or better than Sly, and added more. So he's good, but we're as good without him.

[NightTerror218]

Collapsing the pocket and stopping the run's important too. The pockets whole purpose is to give good passers a sanctuary to step into when good edge rushers get by, so good OTs can just keep them right on going right out of the play; our NT and DEs remove that luxury and leave even elusive QBs nowhere to run (ask Cam, Rapistburger or Smith.) And none of that matters if we can't stop the run first, because if teams can keep the ball consistently taking 5 and 6 yd bites out of our D till they're in our end zone, they never face 3rd and longs that force them to dare the passes greater risks for its greater rewards. As John Lynch says, "you have to earn the right to rush the passer," which is just the defenses converse of "run to establish the pass."

It's a package deal, a system, and maybe the biggest difference between Del Rios supremely talented but underperforming D versus Wades elite one is that Wade gets all the parts to work in concert as well-oiled machine instead of throwing a bunch of Pro Bowls out there and expecting each to succeed individually.

Madden's the only place D is nothing but sacks and picks. It's not that smothering runs, crushing pockets and drawing double teams that create free blitzers isn't critical, it's that we already had MULTIPLE players who do those things as well as or better than Sly, and added more. So he's good, but we're as good without him.

I was more along the lines that wades system is about getting to the QB with pass rush and he dials up a lot of blitzes. CB have to lock down WR just long enough for pass rush to get there, eliminate quick passes. Collapsing a pocket helps this for sure. But i called that an added bonus since their job is to stuff the run.

[Joel]

I was more along the lines that wades system is about getting to the QB with pass rush and he dials up a lot of blitzes. CB have to lock down WR just long enough for pass rush to get there, eliminate quick passes. Collapsing a pocket helps this for sure. But i called that an added bonus since their job is to stuff the run.
It's everything. Unless we stop the run we'll never get the CHANCE to stop the pass. If DBs only cover long enough to get the sack, the many elusive and/or tough QBs escape the first sack and hit the open man (remember how close Ayers came to a sack at the end of regulation vs. Baltimore in 2012?) And, again, if their pocket's so big, safe and comfy they can live there, OTs will run Von and Ware past them and out of the play.

It's really nice to finally have a SYSTEM rather than a bunch of individual stars trying to do it on talent alone. And not just because it makes lesser individual stars replaceably expendable (though that's a nice bonus.)

[Cugel]

I think the Broncos really believe that Wolfe will continue to develop his pass rush skills. I find it difficult to believe he will ever be a double digit sack guy, but you never know. This could be his breakout year. He's been injured, sick with weird ailments and underweight, then suspended. He's endured every kind of possible distraction. Hopefully, this year he will be able to put all that behind him and have a monster year.

Shane Ray too should be ready to step up and they will rely on him more and more, with DeMarcus Ware entering his last season under contract.

They'd better because Gotsis is a long-term project. He's injured and won't be ready this year to make an impact. They like his potential, but it's going to be a while before he shows it.

[Joel]

I don't think Wade (nor any 3-4 coach) expects or requires double digit sacks from his DEs: If they're stopping off tackle runs and helping the NT wall of the middle well enough to force RBs outside into our OLBs waiting arms, then pushing the pocket reliably on the resulting 3rd and longs, ANY number of sacks is just a nice bonus.

[TXBRONC]

I think the Broncos really believe that Wolfe will continue to develop his pass rush skills. I find it difficult to believe he will ever be a double digit sack guy, but you never know. This could be his breakout year. He's been injured, sick with weird ailments and underweight, then suspended. He's endured every kind of possible distraction. Hopefully, this year he will be able to put all that behind him and have a monster year.

Shane Ray too should be ready to step up and they will rely on him more and more, with DeMarcus Ware entering his last season under contract.

They'd better because Gotsis is a long-term project. He's injured and won't be ready this year to make an impact. They like his potential, but it's going to be a while before he shows it.

As far as I have heard Gotsis is expected to play this year.

I think Wolfe is seen as guy who willng get you did to eight sacks a seasons.

[Joel]

As far as I have heard Gotsis is expected to play this year.

I think Wolfe is seen as guy who willng get you did to eight sacks a seasons.

Well, if Von and Ware/Barrett average a dozen sacks/yr, Sly or his successor 3 or 4 more, the combined subs as much and Jacksons successor even as much, that's ~35: If Wolfe tacks on 8 that's well over 40. Even that's a fairly conservative estimate, but I could live with it: It would've ranked somewhere between 10th and 6th last year, and within 10 of our Champs NFL-best 52 sacks.

Just for the record, the teams with last years 10th and 6th most sacks were, respectively, Cincy and Camolina, who both got pretty good results from very good Ds.

[TXBRONC]

Well, if Von and Ware/Barrett average a dozen sacks/yr, Sly or his successor 3 or 4 more, the combined subs as much and Jacksons successor even as much, that's ~35: If Wolfe tacks on 8 that's well over 40. Even that's a fairly conservative estimate, but I could live with it: It would've ranked somewhere between 10th and 6th last year, and within 10 of our Champs NFL-best 52 sacks.

Just for the record, the teams with last years 10th and 6th most sacks were, respectively, Cincy and Camolina, who both got pretty good results from very good Ds.

Getting to 50 is possible but as far what each individual will do it hard to predict. While I said that Wolfe is capable of getting into 8 sack range that's tall order given the depth of our pass rushers. Denver had five pass rushers with four or more sacks this past season. Granted, Jackson was one of those that had 4 or more sacks but we don't know what his successor will bring to the table.

[Bronco4ever]

Teddy Bruschi is such a tool. TJ Ward said the defense feels better about this season because it's their 2nd year in it and will overall be much more comfortable in it. Bruschi said something in reply to the effect of "Yeah, he has to say this. He knows that once they step on to the field without Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan that they won't be nearly as good as they were last year." MJ and DT are good players in their own right, but people are acting like they were the centerpiece of this defense. Just ridiculous.

Screw it. I love that these media folks keep doubting this team. Not to say that I expect us to repeat, but you can't tell me all this disrespect isn't motivating them. Keep it up!

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Teddy is similar to Heath Evans in that he does a horrible job of hiding his homerism.

[TXBRONC]

Teddy Bruschi is such a tool. TJ Ward said the defense feels better about this season because it's their 2nd year in it and will overall be much more comfortable in it. Bruschi said something in reply to the effect of "Yeah, he has to say this. He knows that once they step on to the field without Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan that they won't be nearly as good as they were last year." MJ and DT are good players in their own right, but people are acting like they were the centerpiece of this defense. Just ridiculous.

Screw it. I love that these media folks keep doubting this team. Not to say that I expect us to repeat, but you can't tell me all this disrespect isn't motivating them. Keep it up!

Bruschi has been and always will be a dumb ass. If it were Miller that left then yes would be significantly worse off. Jackson and Trevathan are very good players but they much easier replace than Miller is.

[Ravage!!!]

Whether it's 'because' of Trev or Jackson, I think it's safe to say that our defense will not be as good as last years. Defenses like that generally don't repeat the same performance, and it's hard to 'repeat' winning the Super Bowl. So that, alone, makes it tough to say that the defense will be as good.

[NightTerror218]

Jackson and travathan were good players but not pro bowlers. Offense was not centered around them.

How the defense is going to drop off so much in production according to thw world apparently is beyond me.

[Cugel]

Whether it's 'because' of Trev or Jackson, I think it's safe to say that our defense will not be as good as last years. Defenses like that generally don't repeat the same performance, and it's hard to 'repeat' winning the Super Bowl. So that, alone, makes it tough to say that the defense will be as good.

It won't be as good. But then again, will Broncos QBs combine for 19 TDs and 23 INTs, and 6 Fumbles on the season? Will the OL be horrible again? Will D.T. drop 400 passes again this year?

I'd say the answer to those questions will be "no". The Defense won't be spectacularly good as it was last year, but the offense should be considerably better. They should be able to run the ball effectively in a lot of situations where they flat couldn't move the ball at all last year. And the defense shouldn't be put in so many holes like they were against the Cleveland Browns in overtime when Peyton threw a pick on the 40 yard line and the defense pushed the Browns offense backwards for about 15 yards and forced them to punt and prevented the game winning FG attempt.

This is still a team that can win games if you just don't screw things up for the defense by turning the ball over.

[Cugel]

As for Danny Trevathan the Broncos didn't even make him an offer. They think they can replace him with the players on their roster like Todd Davis and Corey Nelson.

As for Malik, he's a loss, but is he worth $15M a year -- i.e. more money than Tom Brady is getting? Not even close.

[TXBRONC]

Whether it's 'because' of Trev or Jackson, I think it's safe to say that our defense will not be as good as last years. Defenses like that generally don't repeat the same performance, and it's hard to 'repeat' winning the Super Bowl. So that, alone, makes it tough to say that the defense will be as good.

Bruschi is saying Denver's defense won't be even close to as good as last year's defense. I think he's full of it. Denver's defense barring something catastrophic should in the top ten if not the top five.

[NightTerror218]

For the most part i think travathan was a product of the system. When he was out injured todd davis filled in just fine.

Malik i would like to say the same but he was able to do more. He provided extra pentration to the pocket. We can get the base DE to run stuff but making that extra push into pocket will not be as easy. But malik always had 1 on 1 with ware, Miller, wolfe, and sly also demanding attwntion amd sly getting double teams.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

For the most part i think travathan was a product of the system. When he was out injured todd davis filled in just fine.

Malik i would like to say the same but he was able to do more. He provided extra pentration to the pocket. We can get the base DE to run stuff but making that extra push into pocket will not be as easy. But malik always had 1 on 1 with ware, Miller, wolfe, and sly also demanding attwntion amd sly getting double teams.

Agreed-

Wolfe was double teamed more than a home else in the front 3.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'm not changing that typo; I like it

[TXBRONC]

For the most part i think travathan was a product of the system. When he was out injured todd davis filled in just fine.

Malik i would like to say the same but he was able to do more. He provided extra pentration to the pocket. We can get the base DE to run stuff but making that extra push into pocket will not be as easy. But malik always had 1 on 1 with ware, Miller, wolfe, and sly also demanding attwntion amd sly getting double teams.

NT, Trevathan played just well in Del-Tacos' defense. He's a very good football player.

[NightTerror218]

NT, Trevathan played just well in Del-Tacos' defense. He's a very good football player.

He did but was marshall stepped up in rhat system when travathan was injured and Davis played great when travathan missed the beginning of the season.

[TXBRONC]

He did but was marshall stepped up in rhat system when travathan was injured and Davis played great when travathan missed the beginning of the season.

Just because Marshall, Davis, and Nelson for that matter all stepped up doesn't mean Trevathan is a product of a system. Maybe Denver just has a deep bench. He and Jackson are more easily replaced than a Miller or Ware but never the less they are good players.

[NightTerror218]

Just because Marshall, Davis, and Nelson for that matter all stepped up doesn't mean Trevathan is a product of a system. Maybe Denver just has a deep bench. He and Jackson are more easily replaced than a Miller or Ware but never the less they are good players.

They played well when the team was stacked with talent and good scheme. We will see how they do on their new teams who are lacking in the talent department on defense.

[Simple Jaded]

Teddy is similar to Heath Evans in that he does a horrible job of hiding his homerism.

Evans is the single biggest ******* homer, I swear he's still on the Cheats payroll. There was a poll about who was the most fun-loving player in the NFL (or something like that), Mongo came in second in the poll and I shit you not Evans was thoroughly offended by that.

Something as meaningless as that and his homerism just jumped off the screen.

[Joel]

As for Danny Trevathan the Broncos didn't even make him an offer. They think they can replace him with the players on their roster like Todd Davis and Corey Nelson.
I hope they're right, but am dubious; I frankly think Danny a far bigger loss than Jackson, and not just because lightweight sumos are a dime a dozen. I don't question Davis or Nelsons athleticism or heart, but very much question their size and strength, which is less than that of some safeties (again, most notably, Kam Chancellor.) They may be able to keep up with and cover slotmen and receiving TEs, but guys like Gronk, Witten and most blocking TEs can and will toss them like rag dolls.

It's hard to find guys both big/strong enough to truly BACK the line AND fast/agile enough to cover middle zones and slot/TE receivers downfield. Linebacker demands arguably the most versatility of any position, and if 3-4 ILBs and 4-3 OLBs can afford to specialize a bit more, that's only relatively. Much of the 3-4s strength lies in deception in turn reliant on flexibility: OLBs who cover as well as they rush and ILBs who rush as well as they cover, so the offense never knows who's doing what.

A 6' 1" 230/227 lb. ILB forfeits much of that flexibility, because Davis or Nelson may shoot a gap on a delayed safety blitz, but can rarely shed a blocker: Even TEs and RBs outmuscle them (and if you're thinking, Hey, a lot of RBs are lighter than 227, remember that most who are are also <6', so a lot thicker and stronger than Davis/Nelson.) Ask Davis/Nelson to play a whole game like that and we'll be picking pieces of ILB out of the bleachers by half time, because they'll be pinatas.

If we want to play some kind of 3-4 Nickel base, that's fine, but that invites the run, so our big boys better be lights out on 1st and 2nd down or we'll get run OVER giving up a lot of 3rd and 3s. And when B-Marsh is hurt or winded, don't expect a 227 lb. ILB to pull that slack. It's all well to say, "I trust Wade," which I do, but ask Kubiak and Dennison how much even the best coaching schemes can compensate for a PLAYERS inabilities.


As for Malik, he's a loss, but is he worth $15M a year -- i.e. more money than Tom Brady is getting? Not even close.
With all the sleight-of-contract they've been pulling lately, I'm not sure Brady himself knows how much he's getting these days. Regardless, Jacksons role on our team wasn't HALF as critical as Bradys in NE* (or maybe it was; look how they did without him for a full season with CASSEL at QB.) You don't pay $15M/yr for supporting players, if only because it means you can't afford top shelf talent to be LEADING players.

[NightTerror218]

Travathan did get put in coverage on at tines but Ward was on them a lot. Also travathan did cover RB and i think marshal is the better all around ILB.

[TXBRONC]

I hope they're right, but am dubious; I frankly think Danny a far bigger loss than Jackson, and not just because lightweight sumos are a dime a dozen. I don't question Davis or Nelsons athleticism or heart, but very much question their size and strength, which is less than that of some safeties (again, most notably, Kam Chancellor.) They may be able to keep up with and cover slotmen and receiving TEs, but guys like Gronk, Witten and most blocking TEs can and will toss them like rag dolls.

It's hard to find guys both big/strong enough to truly BACK the line AND fast/agile enough to cover middle zones and slot/TE receivers downfield. Linebacker demands arguably the most versatility of any position, and if 3-4 ILBs and 4-3 OLBs can afford to specialize a bit more, that's only relatively. Much of the 3-4s strength lies in deception in turn reliant on flexibility: OLBs who cover as well as they rush and ILBs who rush as well as they cover, so the offense never knows who's doing what.

A 6' 1" 230/227 lb. ILB forfeits much of that flexibility, because Davis or Nelson may shoot a gap on a delayed safety blitz, but can rarely shed a blocker: Even TEs and RBs outmuscle them (and if you're thinking, Hey, a lot of RBs are lighter than 227, remember that most who are are also <6', so a lot thicker and stronger than Davis/Nelson.) Ask Davis/Nelson to play a whole game like that and we'll be picking pieces of ILB out of the bleachers by half time, because they'll be pinatas.

If we want to play some kind of 3-4 Nickel base, that's fine, but that invites the run, so our big boys better be lights out on 1st and 2nd down or we'll get run OVER giving up a lot of 3rd and 3s. And when B-Marsh is hurt or winded, don't expect a 227 lb. ILB to pull that slack. It's all well to say, "I trust Wade," which I do, but ask Kubiak and Dennison how much even the best coaching schemes can compensate for a PLAYERS inabilities.


With all the sleight-of-contract they've been pulling lately, I'm not sure Brady himself knows how much he's getting these days. Regardless, Jacksons role on our team wasn't HALF as critical as Bradys in NE* (or maybe it was; look how they did without him for a full season with CASSEL at QB.) You don't pay $15M/yr for supporting players, if only because it means you can't afford top shelf talent to be LEADING players.

Davis and Nelson were both rotated in heavily, and they both have starting experience so they are be no means unknowns.

[Simple Jaded]

I don't think it has as much to do how good Travathon and his replacement is/isn't, I wonder if ILB is a position that they value as much as others. I keep hearing/reading how good Todd Davis is but don't see Davis being the player Travathon is and Denver made zero attempt to upgrade that position.

[TXBRONC]

I don't think it has as much to do how good Travathon and his replacement is/isn't, I wonder if ILB is a position that they value as much as others. I keep hearing/reading how good Todd Davis is but don't see Davis being the player Travathon is and Denver made zero attempt to upgrade that position.

I think Davis and Nelson must be pretty close to Trevathan or they wouldn't have played as much as they did.

[NightTerror218]

I don't think it has as much to do how good Travathon and his replacement is/isn't, I wonder if ILB is a position that they value as much as others. I keep hearing/reading how good Todd Davis is but don't see Davis being the player Travathon is and Denver made zero attempt to upgrade that position.

The have 3 other ILB besides marshal they are high on. I think Elway knew travathan was going to be paid a lot. With all the talk prior to FA about bears reaching out. I hope the bears get slapped with tampering.

[TXBRONC]

The have 3 other ILB besides marshal they are high on. I think Elway knew travathan was going to be paid a lot. With all the talk prior to FA about bears reaching out. I hope the bears get slapped with tampering.

I remember at the start of preseason last year that it was mentioned that Denver felt that Davis and Nelson could be starters as well. Considering how much playing time they got during the regular season I don't think that was just talk.

[Joel]

Davis and Nelson were both rotated in heavily, and they both have starting experience so they are be no means unknowns.
Who said they were unknowns? Dick Sherman and Darrelle Revis are well and rightly known as excellent CBs: I still wouldn't ask either to blitz or stuff inside runs.

ROTATING on 3rd and long, when we're often in nickel anyway, is very different from STARTING on 1st and 10 when guys like Jamaal Charles run over guys like Davis and Nelson, if only because a G with 100 lb. on them tosses them aside with one hand. On the other "hand," we can't just throw in a 270 lb. plodding bruiser, because our ILBs must be able to cover TEs/tertiary WRs/middle zones at least as well as they stuff the run and blitz.

It's a demanding job both Marshall and Trevathan do well, which is precisely why we couldn't afford to keep both along with our many other excellent defensive starters. If anyone can find the answer, it's Wade, but, again, expecting great coaching to fully offset minimal ability is how Kubiak got stuck with Schaub, Plummer and Griese, and Dennison was forced to try and make a starter from the likes of Cooper Carlisle.

In a 3-4, ILB and DE are both complementary, even supplementary, roles, but the first is far more demanding than the second, and I personally have less faith in Davis and Nelson than in Vance Walker, Jared Crick, Adam Gotsis and Kyle Peko. Again, not questioning their commitment, only the ability of 230 and 227 lb. LBs to face down NFL Gs, blocking TEs and Beast Mode RBs. Trevathan outweighs Jonathan Stewart as much as Stewart outweighs Davis.

[TXBRONC]

Who said they were unknowns? Dick Sherman and Darrelle Revis are well and rightly known as excellent CBs: I still wouldn't ask either to blitz or stuff inside runs.

ROTATING on 3rd and long, when we're often in nickel anyway, is very different from STARTING on 1st and 10 when guys like Jamaal Charles run over guys like Davis and Nelson, if only because a G with 100 lb. on them tosses them aside with one hand. On the other "hand," we can't just throw in a 270 lb. plodding bruiser, because our ILBs must be able to cover TEs/tertiary WRs/middle zones at least as well as they stuff the run and blitz.

It's a demanding job both Marshall and Trevathan do well, which is precisely why we couldn't afford to keep both along with our many other excellent defensive starters. If anyone can find the answer, it's Wade, but, again, expecting great coaching to fully offset minimal ability is how Kubiak got stuck with Schaub, Plummer and Griese, and Dennison was forced to try and make a starter from the likes of Cooper Carlisle.

In a 3-4, ILB and DE are both complementary, even supplementary, roles, but the first is far more demanding than the second, and I personally have less faith in Davis and Nelson than in Vance Walker, Jared Crick, Adam Gotsis and Kyle Peko. Again, not questioning their commitment, only the ability of 230 and 227 lb. LBs to face down NFL Gs, blocking TEs and Beast Mode RBs. Trevathan outweighs Jonathan Stewart as much as Stewart outweighs Davis.

No they didn't rotate in on just 3rd long situations. At some point you're actually going have watch a game instead saying stupid shit.

[Joel]

No they didn't rotate in on just 3rd long situations. At some point you're actually going have watch a game instead saying stupid shit.
Fine: Out of 18 games, which ones did Davis OR Nelson START (since that's what's required without Trevathan)? Maybe when Marshall was out because of his foot; happen to recall how our #1 D dropped off midseason only to come roaring back in December and the playoffs, when everyone was healthy? Which tapes should I check for footage of Davis or Nelson flattening a RB head on, or shedding G or TEs block to sack a QB?

6' 1" 227 lb. LB; seems legit. They're great in coverage, but if that were all LBs (even ILBs) did they'd be DBs. A DB as STARTING LB is dangerous.

This whole "everyone who doesn't see the games exactly as I do isn't watching them" routine's getting pretty tired. Disagreement doesn't require condescension.

[Simple Jaded]

The have 3 other ILB besides marshal they are high on. I think Elway knew travathan was going to be paid a lot. With all the talk prior to FA about bears reaching out. I hope the bears get slapped with tampering.

Yeah, they like them, they're JAG's tho.

[Simple Jaded]

I think Davis and Nelson must be pretty close to Trevathan or they wouldn't have played as much as they did.
Nelson is small, Davis is small and slow. They 7th round and undrafted for a reason and Denver did nothing to upgrade them. They're not Patrick Willis.

[TXBRONC]

Nelson is small, Davis is small and slow. They 7th round and undrafted for a reason and Denver did nothing to upgrade them. They're not Patrick Willis.

Danny Trevathan isn't Patrick Willis either and he was a 6th round pick that was seen as small and slow. Marshall was a 5th round pick that was let go by Jacksonville.

[TXBRONC]

The Steelers who also run a 3-4 inside linebackers are not big guys. Shazier is listed at 230lbs and Timmons is listed at 234 lbs.

[NightTerror218]

They both started the first 2-3 games last season while marshall and travathan were both out from recovering injuries. Travathan was coming back from torn ACL? Marshal was his foot. And then marshall and travath came back as back ups and slowly worked in.