For those who are still hung up on Brock going elsewhere... take a gander at this.

[artie_dale]

This is a fantastic breakdown of what Brock really brings to the table from Football Outsiders. This validated my personal thoughts on him so here you go.



http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2016/film-room-brock-osweiler


Those TV shows typically don't span longer than a few months. Osweiler's time on the field during the 2015 season, and therefore his time on the field for his whole career, lasted roughly two months. During those two months, Osweiler didn't play particularly well. Using data from the Pre-Snap Reads Quarterback Catalogue, Osweiler threw an interceptable pass once every 21.2 attempts (27th among the quarterbacks in the catalogue) while throwing accurately on just 76.2 percent of his passes (22nd). But that's OK. In these TV shows you don't need to be great to be the winner. You can be benched for Peyton Manning and still be rewarded for your below-average ability.

[Lancane]

I'm over it, more worried about who will replace him at this point. No hate, I hope he succeeds, well besides when he faces us.

[artie_dale]

I'm over it, more worried about who will replace him at this point. No hate, I hope he succeeds, well besides when he faces us.

I'll keep an eye on him. Just curious as to whether he gets better or not.

I'll admit one thing though. As much as I like Kubes, I'm not sold that his offensive scheme and play calling is what it used to be. I'm hoping he gets a young buck that fits his scheme that he can mold. But, the chances of teams landing exactly the QB they needs is damn near nil.

[silkamilkamonico]

Yes I think Kubes's system is outdated myself. But Denver has a chance right now to find his next QB. The one that he wants. It might not be this year. I am not convinced that Brock was the type of QB Kubiak wanted and never bought into the theory's of how he was perfect for Kube's system.

[BroncoNut]

sounds like Brock is going to suck. good article, really broke things down

[MasterShake]

Yes I think Kubes's system is outdated myself. But Denver has a chance right now to find his next QB. The one that he wants. It might not be this year. I am not convinced that Brock was the type of QB Kubiak wanted and never bought into the theory's of how he was perfect for Kube's system.

Sometimes I think that too, then I remember how good he made Flacco look.

[artie_dale]

Sometimes I think that too, then I remember how good he made Flacco look.

Flacco has "Guts of a burglar!" - John Harbaugh

Flacco did well under Kubes, but Flacco was a talented QB before Kubes got there. Flacco is like Frankenstein though, which makes us scratch our heads when we see him.

[silkamilkamonico]

I think he could have made it work with Brock, but instead of paying a maybe that kind of money, they have the luxury of looking for his kind of QB now. I just hope they don't handcuff themselves by being so hung up on this year that they go and do something stupid for making a trade for Kapearnick. Dude's contract is worse than Brock's.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Flacco has "Guts of a burglar!" - John Harbaugh

Flacco did well under Kubes, but Flacco was a talented QB before Kubes got there. Flacco is like Frankenstein though, which makes us scratch our heads when we see him.
Flacco had the best year of his career under Kubes.

[artie_dale]

Flacco had the best year of his career under Kubes.

But he got a ring without him, so... Does that mean Kubes' coaching focused on one aspect of the offense and neglected the rest? And if so, is that a good thing (a few individual's stats vs the success of the whole team)?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

But he got a ring without him, so... Does that mean Kubes' coaching focused on one aspect of the offense and neglected the rest? And if so, is that a good thing (a few individual's stats vs the success of the whole team)?

I don't know how that applies. Kubiak didn't coach the defense. The offense as a whole had the best year in Ravens history. Do you remember how good Forsett was that year?

[BroncoJoe]

Yes I think Kubes's system is outdated myself. But Denver has a chance right now to find his next QB. The one that he wants. It might not be this year. I am not convinced that Brock was the type of QB Kubiak wanted and never bought into the theory's of how he was perfect for Kube's system.

His system isn't outdated. He was dealing with a below average, albeit future HOF, QB, and another one that had never started a game in the NFL.

He was adjusting on the fly to adjust his system to meet the abilities of those he was coaching. Oh, and in case you forgot, he lead the Broncos to a SB victory.

[Ravage!!!]

This is a fantastic breakdown of what Brock really brings to the table from Football Outsiders. This validated my personal thoughts on him so here you go.

This stuff really means so little, to be honest. I mean, we could see Kubes absolutely being sooooo conservative in the second half with every game, it got to the point I felt like we had Reeves calling the plays.

It was the first 7 games when replacing a guy after 10 games,and not just 'a' guy...but THE guy named Manning. So much was different about this season. Stats are interesting to start a discussion with, but they REALLY are not the 'tell all' in football.

But I'm with Lancane. I'm past the Brock thing, don't have any desire to try and 'tear him down'...or "if you are still upset, this is more crap about him" thing.


But now that I hear the Kaep wants to go to Cleveland, and RG3 wants to play for LA (thank goodness, the rams can have him)..... now I'm really curious as to what the "Defending Super Bowl" champions do.

[artie_dale]

I don't know how that applies. Kubiak didn't coach the defense. The offense as a whole had the best year in Ravens history. Do you remember how good Forsett was that year?

I do remember that the Ravens offense just clicked all of a sudden. You struck my curiosity though. Now I gotta go look at their team stats. The ONLY logical thing that comes to mind then, is though they were more successful than before, why didn't they go further into the playoffs and who did they lost to? Because if Kubes' offense exploits certain teams and allows his team to put up lots of points on those teams, I wonder which teams and defensive schemes negate his scheme. And now deep thoughts by Jack Handy... (sorry, couldn't help myself)

[Joel]

Sometimes I think that too, then I remember how good he made Flacco look.
Kubiak's made every QB he ever had look better (in many cases FAR better) than they actually were. The problem has been that he's tried to do that with too many scrubs; eventually defenses had enough tape to see through Kubiaks smoke and mirrors, paint his QB into a corner, and watch the guy implode. Griese and Schaub sucked without pockets; Plummer sucked WITH one. Opponents who could and did take away the comfort zone Kubiak provided beat each of those QBs badly.

If he's learned that painful lesson at last, we'll end up with a solid franchise QB sooner than later, and Kubiaks coaching, game planning and playcalling will make him a long term success. Osweiler will miss Kubiak sooner than later regardless, especially now that Houston's jettisoning all the starters Kubiak and Dennison built into an elite offensive line. Oz is leaving a team whose line they're improving for the team degrading the line they built: It's gonna get ugly for an inexperienced QB VERY fast.

[Ravage!!!]

I do remember that the Ravens offense just clicked all of a sudden. You struck my curiosity though. Now I gotta go look at their team stats. The ONLY logical thing that comes to mind then, is though they were more successful than before, why didn't they go further into the playoffs and who did they lost to? Because if Kubes' offense exploits certain teams and allows his team to put up lots of points on those teams, I wonder which teams and defensive schemes negate his scheme. And now deep thoughts by Jack Handy... (sorry, couldn't help myself)

Wow.. you think you are going to learn that from reading a stat sheet? Also, where did you get the idea tht Kubes offense 'exploits' certain teams and allows his team to put up lots of points????

[artie_dale]

This stuff really means so little, to be honest. I mean, we could see Kubes absolutely being sooooo conservative in the second half with every game, it got to the point I felt like we had Reeves calling the plays.

It was the first 7 games when replacing a guy after 10 games,and not just 'a' guy...but THE guy named Manning. So much was different about this season. Stats are interesting to start a discussion with, but they REALLY are not the 'tell all' in football.

But I'm with Lancane. I'm past the Brock thing, don't have any desire to try and 'tear him down'...or "if you are still upset, this is more crap about him" thing.


But now that I hear the Kaep wants to go to Cleveland, and RG3 wants to play for LA (thank goodness, the rams can have him)..... now I'm really curious as to what the "Defending Super Bowl" champions do.

It was either Kubes' going conservative or Kubes wasn't confident in Brock's ability to move the ball due to ill-advised decisions and inaccuracy. But yes, I'm with ya, moving on.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I do remember that the Ravens offense just clicked all of a sudden. You struck my curiosity though. Now I gotta go look at their team stats. The ONLY logical thing that comes to mind then, is though they were more successful than before, why didn't they go further into the playoffs and who did they lost to? Because if Kubes' offense exploits certain teams and allows his team to put up lots of points on those teams, I wonder which teams and defensive schemes negate his scheme. And now deep thoughts by Jack Handy... (sorry, couldn't help myself)

Their d wasn't as good in years past. I believe they hung over 30 on the Patriots in NE in the AFC championship.

[Ravage!!!]

It was either Kubes' going conservative or Kubes wasn't confident in Brock's ability to move the ball due to ill-advised decisions and inaccuracy. But yes, I'm with ya, moving on.

Well.. Brock threw how many TDs in the first half against Pitt??? Then, all of a sudden he couldn't throw the ball or Kubiak decided he THEN didn't trust Brock?? That doesn't make any sense to me.

[artie_dale]

I don't know how that applies. Kubiak didn't coach the defense. The offense as a whole had the best year in Ravens history. Do you remember how good Forsett was that year?


I do remember that the Ravens offense just clicked all of a sudden. You struck my curiosity though. Now I gotta go look at their team stats. The ONLY logical thing that comes to mind then, is though they were more successful than before, why didn't they go further into the playoffs and who did they lost to? Because if Kubes' offense exploits certain teams and allows his team to put up lots of points on those teams, I wonder which teams and defensive schemes negate his scheme. And now deep thoughts by Jack Handy... (sorry, couldn't help myself)

So, from looking at their seasonal stats before and during Kubes' stint in Baltimore, and like Ravage implied, there was nothing I could tell other than Baltimore put up quite a bit of points that season and their loses didn't stand out (typical division rivalry away loses). Flacco's stats were his best that season, but not by a landslide (slightly more pass yrds, higher pass complete %, a few more TDs). Forset certainly shined.

[BroncoJoe]

Their d wasn't as good in years past. I believe they hung over 30 on the Patriots in NE in the AFC championship.

They beat the Steelers 30-17 in Pittsburg. Wildcard game. Steelers won the division that year.
They lost to the eventual SB Champion Patriots, 31-35 in the divisional round.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

So, from looking at their seasonal stats before and during Kubes' stint in Baltimore, and like Ravage implied, there was nothing I could tell other than Baltimore put up quite a bit of points that season and their loses didn't stand out (typical division rivalry away loses). Flacco's stats were his best that season, but not by a landslide (slightly more pass yrds, higher pass complete %, a few more TDs). Forset certainly shined.

Their offensive output in the playoffs was impressive; as I said in a previous post I believe they put about 30 on the Patriots in NE in the AFC championship.

[artie_dale]

Well.. Brock threw how many TDs in the first half against Pitt??? Then, all of a sudden he couldn't throw the ball or Kubiak decided he THEN didn't trust Brock?? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes! Exactly. Pitt changed their coverage (2nd half adjustment) to more man and bump & run. That forced Brock to hesitate and that made him look really bad in the 2nd half. I also blamed Kubes for not following suite and making 2nd half adjustments himself (good coaches do).

[BroncoJoe]

Their offensive output in the playoffs was impressive; as I said in a previous post I believe they put about 30 on the Patriots in NE in the AFC championship.

They were 8th in points scored that year.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

They beat the Steelers 30-17 in Pittsburg. Wildcard game. Steelers won the division that year.
They lost to the eventual SB Champion Patriots, 31-35 in the divisional round.

Thanks for the clarification Joe. Who did NE play in the championship?

[Joel]

I do remember that the Ravens offense just clicked all of a sudden. You struck my curiosity though. Now I gotta go look at their team stats. The ONLY logical thing that comes to mind then, is though they were more successful than before, why didn't they go further into the playoffs and who did they lost to? Because if Kubes' offense exploits certain teams and allows his team to put up lots of points on those teams, I wonder which teams and defensive schemes negate his scheme. And now deep thoughts by Jack Handy... (sorry, couldn't help myself)
The lost to the eventual SB Cheats in the divisional round, after blowing 14 pt leads twice in ONE game; that says more of Harbaughs Ravens D than of his rebuilt line (a process which admittedly began pre-Kubiak/Dennison) and QB. Remember all Harbaughs Hell raising about the Cheatriots "illegally" putting eligible receivers on the line (guess he's never seen a TE before)?


Wow.. you think you are going to learn that from reading a stat sheet?
Stats are about the only objective concrete metric of performance. Sure, guys with better "intangibles" occasionally outperform those with better "measurables," but that's the exception making the opposite rule a law. Our guts may say the 2012 Broncos were better than the 2012 Ravens, but the Divisional Round scoring statistics and SB scoring statistics say otherwise.


Also, where did you get the idea tht Kubes offense 'exploits' certain teams and allows his team to put up lots of points????
Probably from their statistical record of DOING so, not only with Houston, Shannys Broncos and Seiferts '9ers, but in the very 2014 Ravens vs. NE* playoff being discussed: Kubiaks offense scored PLENTY of points IN FOXBORO, but the Ravens D blew double digit leads, not once but TWICE.

[BroncoJoe]

Thanks for the clarification Joe. Who did NE play in the championship?

Colts. Who beat us.

[artie_dale]

Their offensive output in the playoffs was impressive; as I said in a previous post I believe they put about 30 on the Patriots in NE in the AFC championship.

Yes, Baltimore put up hella points all season that year. Their loses weren't blowouts either (except @ Pitt). I think it's reasonable to guess that they averaged mid 20's in points per game that season.

[Ravage!!!]

Yes! Exactly. Pitt changed their coverage (2nd half adjustment) to more man and bump & run. That forced Brock to hesitate and that made him look really bad in the 2nd half. I also blamed Kubes for not following suite and making 2nd half adjustments himself (good coaches do).

Kubes went into a shell many times this season. I'm not buying this.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Yes, Baltimore put up hella points all season that year. Their loses weren't blowouts either (except @ Pitt). I think it's reasonable to guess that they averaged mid 20's in points per game that season.

I guess athletic qb's who can push the ball down the field excel in his system. That's why I'd really like to se Kap here.

I do realize Flacco is better at reading the field.

[dogfish]

giraffes are stupid, cowardly creatures. . .

[BroncoJoe]

Kubes went into a shell many times this season. I'm not buying this.

Maybe because his QB had more INT's than any other QB, despite missing 7 games? Or he was dealing with a first time starter?

[artie_dale]

Kubes went into a shell many times this season. I'm not buying this.

I think it could have easily been a combination of the two. I personally wasn't crazy about Brock, but Kubes' coaching made me question him often too.

[Joel]

I hate debating Kubiak with fellow Broncos fans, because it inevitably becomes a referendum on each of our original championship teams' critical components. That is, Shanahan, Kubiak and Elway were EACH indispensable, but deciding who contributed most to our offensive production is a zero-sum game: The more any ONE of the three was responsible, the less BOTH others were. So it quickly turns into addition by subtraction, tearing down two of them to build up the other.

In that kind of debate Kubiak will always get shredded. A solo 5-2 playoff record and SB Championship compared to Shannys 0-1 playoff record without Kubiak may have created some separation there, but it'll probably always be hard to convince most fans Kubiak wasn't just along for the ride with Shanahan and Elway.

[Simple Jaded]

We're screwed!

Btw, I hate when hte Broncos try to win this year, that's soooooo 2015.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

We're screwed!

This is the input that keeps this board entertaining.

[Simple Jaded]

This is the input that keeps this board entertaining.

I edited, there's more. Doesn't add much but there's more.

[Northman]

I edited, there's more. Doesn't add much but there's mOAr.

fify

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I edited, there's more. Doesn't add much but there's more.

You edited it with a spelling error.

Get yourself together man!

[Simple Jaded]

You're welcome. I gVe and I give and it's never good enough.

[TXBRONC]

I think he could have made it work with Brock, but instead of paying a maybe that kind of money, they have the luxury of looking for his kind of QB now. I just hope they don't handcuff themselves by being so hung up on this year that they go and do something stupid for making a trade for Kapearnick. Dude's contract is worse than Brock's.

Elway isn't stupid. If you think Elway would trade for Kaepernick lock, stock, and barrel then I don't know what to tell you Silk.

[CoachChaz]

I think he could have made it work with Brock, but instead of paying a maybe that kind of money, they have the luxury of looking for his kind of QB now. I just hope they don't handcuff themselves by being so hung up on this year that they go and do something stupid for making a trade for Kapearnick. Dude's contract is worse than Brock's.

Actually...Kaep's contract is about as team friendly as a contract can get.

[jlarsiii]

Elway isn't stupid. If you think Elway would trade for Kaepernick lock, stock, and barrel then I don't know what to tell you Silk.

At this point it is hard for me to figure out what they are going to do at QB. If they weren't going to overpay for Brock then they will definitely not overpay for Kaep. If the end result of that is Kaep going to the Browns to watch is career die then best of luck to him.

As a fan I want them to settle the QB situation quickly, but in reality they have time to figure out what they want to do. If they really like Siemian then maybe they bring in a fill-in for this season while they finish prepping Siemian. In that case trading for Kaep makes no sense unless they believe that they can resurrect his career to a point that they can't get to with Siemian.

Overall, our QB play was below average all of last season statistically speaking. They don't have to shoot for the moon. If they can get even a little increase in QB play to average that would help to offset the FA losses on defense. We could still be competitive. I just can't figure out who their target would be.

[artie_dale]

At this point it is hard for me to figure out what they are going to do at QB. If they weren't going to overpay for Brock then they will definitely not overpay for Kaep. If the end result of that is Kaep going to the Browns to watch is career die then best of luck to him.

As a fan I want them to settle the QB situation quickly, but in reality they have time to figure out what they want to do. If they really like Siemian then maybe they bring in a fill-in for this season while they finish prepping Siemian. In that case trading for Kaep makes no sense unless they believe that they can resurrect his career to a point that they can't get to with Siemian.

Overall, our QB play was below average all of last season statistically speaking. They don't have to shoot for the moon. If they can get even a little increase in QB play to average that would help to offset the FA losses on defense. We could still be competitive. I just can't figure out who their target would be.

I agree with this. I don't want them to "rush" (settle QB situation quickly). I agree that Elway will not over pay for any of these guys available for the reason that he didn't want to over pay for Brock. I believe if none of these players fall to us, Siemian will be handed the keys for at least one season. Elway will have the funds next season to make a splash if the type of QB he & Kubes wants is there. I'd be okay with that.

Our Defense and the depth of players we already have give me confident that it'll still be able to win a couple games for us if Siemian is our guy.

[TXBRONC]

But he got a ring without him, so... Does that mean Kubes' coaching focused on one aspect of the offense and neglected the rest? And if so, is that a good thing (a few individual's stats vs the success of the whole team)?

Ok but he was never very consistent as quarterback. Also, the following season the Ravens missed the playoffs and Flacco had one of his worst seasons as a pro.

[Dzone]

Osweiller takes some brutal hits. He wont last 16 games. That's guaranteed. Giraffes are easy prey to bring down. Osweiller will be going down early and wont be getting back up.

[Ravage!!!]

Osweiller takes some brutal hits. He wont last 16 games. That's guaranteed. Giraffes are easy prey to bring down. Osweiller will be going down early and wont be getting back up.

This is just.. .weird.

[tomjonesrocks]

Osweiller takes some brutal hits. He wont last 16 games. That's guaranteed. Giraffes are easy prey to bring down. Osweiller will be going down early and wont be getting back up.

He took enough shots to get hurt but actually he does a mean fainting goat which is pretty lame IMO for a guy pushing 6'7" and 25.

[Simple Jaded]

Actually...Kaep's contract is about as team friendly as a contract can get.

From what I hear it's basically a contract they can get out of every offseason.

[Northman]

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xal1/v/t1.0-9/1377492_10208890038477335_5727187818588194612_n.jp g?oh=27d9c5f7079a28e9cb81bd245662719c&oe=57914EAC

[artie_dale]

From what I hear it's basically a contract they can get out of every offseason.

But is that even worth the $19M for a season?

[BroncoJoe]

But is that even worth the $19M for a season?

His cap hit next hear is $16M, I think.

[artie_dale]

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2016/03/15/brock-osweilers-tattoo-grammar-problem-is-a-issue/


Houston (CBS HOUSTON) – The Houston Texans new quarterback has a big problem. On his left bicep, he has a tattoo with the phrase “Live Life to it’s Fullest.” On his right bicep, Osweiler has the phrase “Leave Your Legacy.” These are good motivational messages for the young quarterback. The problem is that “Live Life to it’s Fullest” is improper grammar. It should be “its” not “it’s” which would read “Live Life to it is Fullest.” Phil Hecken, a constant contributor to Uni Watch, pointed out the grammar mistake on twitter last night. (He, of course, spelled “catastrophe” wrong in his tweet, but we’re going to assume, much like we did in the headline, that was purposeful.)

HA HA HA. Did we REALLY want a guy so awesome that grammar laws don't apply to him????

[Cugel]

Those TV shows typically don't span longer than a few months. Osweiler's time on the field during the 2015 season, and therefore his time on the field for his whole career, lasted roughly two months. During those two months, Osweiler didn't play particularly well. Using data from the Pre-Snap Reads Quarterback Catalogue, Osweiler threw an interceptable pass once every 21.2 attempts (27th among the quarterbacks in the catalogue) while throwing accurately on just 76.2 percent of his passes (22nd). But that's OK. In these TV shows you don't need to be great to be the winner. You can be benched for Peyton Manning and still be rewarded for your below-average ability.

"ONE hot summer’s day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. “Just the things to quench my thirst,” quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: “I am sure they are sour anyway.”

Aesop's Moral of the Story: “IT IS EASY TO DESPISE WHAT YOU CANNOT GET.”

[Cugel]

There are two separate issues:

#1 - Whether Osweiler is worth $18M a year, $72M over 4 years. Answer: He was worth $16M a year, $64M over 4 years to John Elway, but not more. Whether he will ultimately prove the Texans right depends on his play over the next 2 or 3 years. If he continues to do well, he would have gotten that much anyway. If not then they made a mistake.

#2 - Whether Osweiler is better than the alternatives Denver could acquire, not taking price into account.

And the related question: if the Broncos have a narrow window of time, during which this defense will remain at an elite level, before such veterans as DeMarcus Ware retire (next year for him), then did the Broncos forfeit any reasonable chance of winning the SB this season by failing to tie up Brock before he became a FA?

We won't know these answers until after the season. But, people ripping Brock now, should stop to consider that Elway is a better judge of QBs than you, and he thought Brock was worth $16M a year and $30M guaranteed. That is an indication he thinks Osweiler will at least be a good QB over the next few years.

[Cugel]

Osweiller takes some brutal hits. He wont last 16 games. That's guaranteed. Giraffes are easy prey to bring down. Osweiller will be going down early and wont be getting back up.

That would be my opinion. But, I hesitate to argue this very strongly, since Elway vehemently disagreed. Whenever I start thinking that Brock is too tall and that he presents a big target and that his injuries this season had something to do with that, I have to say to myself: "well, Elway still wanted him."

[TXBRONC]

That would be my opinion. But, I hesitate to argue this very strongly, since Elway vehemently disagreed. Whenever I start thinking that Brock is too tall and that he presents a big target and that his injuries this season had something to do with that, I have to say to myself: "well, Elway still wanted him."

I think holding onto the ball to long coupled with bad line had more to do with Osweiler taking sacks.