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Northman
02-25-2016, 11:49 AM
http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/19031/denver-broncos-will-focus-on-offensive-linemen-at-the-combine


ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- A closer look at the positions the Denver Broncos (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/den/denver-broncos) could target at the NFL combine in Indianapolis:

Positions of need: With two left tackles coming off injured reserve (Ryan Clady (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/11246/ryan-clady) and Ty Sambrailo (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/2514397/ty-sambrailo)) to go with two starters from this past season who will be unrestricted free agents (guard Evan Mathis (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/8493/evan-mathis) and tackle Ryan Harris (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/10514/ryan-harris)), it’s clear the Broncos’ top need position, even before the sometimes choppy performance of the offense is considered, is the offensive line. The Broncos entered the offseason a year ago trying to assemble a young line that they could keep together. And while that plan was shoved off the drawing board by injuries and other circumstances, it is again their goal this time around. The Broncos will also look hard at running backs, inside linebackers and, if Malik Jackson (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15047/malik-jackson)departs in free agency, every-down defensive ends.

GEM
02-25-2016, 11:51 AM
Joel is creaming his jeans somewhere out there. :laugh:

Joel
02-25-2016, 04:04 PM
Joel is creaming his jeans somewhere out there. :laugh:
Pretty much. They keep doing what I demand a year AFTER I demand it. "Hire all the coaches Houston just fired, then win a SB" worked out pretty good, so.... :)

MOtorboat
02-25-2016, 05:42 PM
Joel is creaming his jeans somewhere out there. :laugh:

Don't worry, they'll pick all the ones he didn't want and then he'll try to claim otherwise when they turn into all-pros.

dogfish
02-25-2016, 05:46 PM
Pretty much. They keep doing what I demand a year AFTER I demand it. "Hire all the coaches Houston just fired, then win a SB" worked out pretty good, so.... :)

joel, i realize this may not have occurred to you, but i kind of suspect that elway isn't really focused on your "demands". . .

:lol: :spit: :pound:

GEM
02-25-2016, 06:00 PM
Pretty much. They keep doing what I demand a year AFTER I demand it. "Hire all the coaches Houston just fired, then win a SB" worked out pretty good, so.... :)

Maybe you're just pushy so they ignore you for a year? :D

Cugel
02-25-2016, 06:16 PM
Probably 4 of the 5 Broncos who started the SB won't return in 2016.

So, yeah, they're looking at OL. Doesn't mean they will draft one in the first round. That would depend on who's available at #31. It's not like they're getting a Joe Thomas in the first round after all.

Oh, Wait. . . . . :musicus:

dogfish
02-25-2016, 06:21 PM
8652

Joel
02-25-2016, 06:21 PM
Maybe you're just pushy so they ignore you for a year? :D
Well, I can hardly deny the first, so maybe; they get there in the end, so I can't complain (much. ;))

VonDoom
02-25-2016, 08:04 PM
Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 2h2 hours ago

Asked @johnelway where he sees the depth in this draft. He replied, "Offensive line."

Joel
02-25-2016, 08:49 PM
Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 2h2 hours ago

Asked @johnelway where he sees the depth in this draft. He replied, "Offensive line."
Hallelujah. After ignoring MULTIPLE drafts where that was the consensus and we had HUGE line needs, I hope that Elway's 1) right and 2) serious.

NightTerror218
02-25-2016, 09:04 PM
Joel Bosa falls to Denver at 31 and Elway drafts him and Joel goes on suicide watch because best player available is not how to draft.

Joel
02-25-2016, 09:30 PM
Joel Bosa falls to Denver at 31 and Elway drafts him and Joel goes on suicide watch because best player available is not how to draft.
The Best Player Available ISN'T at #31. Best Player Available is TOTALLY the way to draft IF a team missed the playoffs (especially if by a lot.) But there are only so many positions; what are the odds the Best Player LEFT at #31 is the best available? When MOST teams are chasing the "best" "available," regardless of position? Let's make this really simple: If a drafts BEST athlete, hands down, is a RB, do you take him in the 1st round? What if it's a G, or a K? BPA for Life, yo?

Teams should draft to their situation; sometimes that's the Best Player Available, others it's need. The error/wisdom lies not in WHICH a team does, but WHEN.

Joel
02-25-2016, 09:44 PM
Practical example: Assume for argument Shane Ray was by far the most skilled and talented player available at #23 last year. He barely played, even when Ware missed TWO MONTHS hurt, and probably won't play much more with Von, Ware and Shaq returning. If Ware retires in 2017 we may get all of three seasons out of Ray before forced to pay him Von Miller money or say goodbye. It's at least as likely we only get TWO starting seasons and decline a club option on a 1st round bust.

Is that a good return on a 1st round pick, last years 5th rounder PLUS this years 5th rounder and an offensive lineman Manning, Oz and CJ DESPERATELY needed?

Or would FILLING that need have gotten more out of a 1st round pick than our 4th best OLB delivered? Not a knock on Ray, just a question of how many top OLBs we can use, and if we have the luxury of being so good so many places we can afford using our bench to hoard All Pros at a few positions. A dog team wouldn't have the "problem" of so many elite OLBs even a 1st round pick can't get on the field, and dogs draft high enough to "have their pick" of the genuinely BEST players available.

That's not where the #2 seed is though: That's why we had to trade away a LOT just to move up to #23.

NightTerror218
02-25-2016, 09:59 PM
Shane Ray played a lot. He did well. He created a lot of pressure and made some plays.

He is no von miller but has huge upside as pass rusher.

Davii
02-25-2016, 10:14 PM
Well, I can hardly deny the first, so maybe; they get there in the end, so I can't complain (much. ;))

You can't complain much? God how we all wish that was a true statement

BroncoNut
02-25-2016, 10:25 PM
Comeon yall. Just admit it. Joel rules

Joel
02-26-2016, 12:56 AM
Shane Ray played a lot.

Snap Counts
Positions listed reflect those shown in the gamebook



Def.
ST






Num
Pct
Num
Pct



Shane Ray (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RayxSh00.htm)
341
31.11%
38
8.12%
Shane Ray 2015 game-by-game snap counts (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RayxSh00/fantasy/2015)




He did well. He created a lot of pressure and made some plays.

He is no von miller but has huge upside as pass rusher.
Great: Sound like a 1st round pick? A guy you trade UP for in the 1st? Expect much more this year? Because he'll only have two plus a club option left after that; is 2-3 years of solid play enough to get off a 1st rounder before either paying him $10-15M/yr? Is a guy making any less on his next contract worth a 1st round pick?

I'm not saying he sucks, I'm saying playing <1/3 of snaps at an above average level=/=1st round value we BADLY needed elsewhere. If we hadn't had Von AND Ware AND Barrett I'd have been overjoyed to get Ray—but we DID have all three, with nothing but sophomore PS guys, career journeymen, rookies and washed up vets trying to help Vasquez do the job of five men. Same as the last two seasons when Manning limped to the finish as best he could with NO protection NOR run support. Oz was starting by midseason because Manning was too hurt to play even halfway decent; by the playoffs, Manning was back and playing hurt because OZ was too hurt to play even halfway decent. But at least our 4th best OLB and 5th or 6th pass rusher had a great rookie year, despite spending most of it ON THE BENCH. :)

Just like I'm not saying Sly sucks: He's a great NT I'm VERY grateful to have—I just think THREE SEASONS is too long to wait for a 1st round pick to become our lines lynchpin rather than a roleplayer. Not because he sucks, but because he only emerged as a leader THIS year and his contract expires NEXT year. Call me crazy, but I want >1-2 good seasons out of a 1st round pick; if that's all we're looking for, there are plenty of guys like that to be had in the 3rd or 4th round.

MOtorboat
02-26-2016, 12:58 AM
Shane Ray played a lot. He did well. He created a lot of pressure and made some plays.

He is no von miller but has huge upside as pass rusher.

Remember when Joel wanted Miller moved to middle linebacker?

Me too.

Joel
02-26-2016, 01:13 AM
Remember when Joel wanted Miller moved to middle linebacker?

Me too.
Yeah: When we ran a 4-3, not a 3-4. Remember when Ware was a DE and Trevathan an OLB? Are they still?

Remember when Miller knocked down a TD pass covering a primary WR in the SB? Remember when he intercepted Brady to set up a TD in the AFCCG? Von's a freak of nature: In a 4-3, he's wasted anywhere but DE or MLB—but in a 3-4 he's wasted anywhere but OLB.

Remember when Joel wanted to fire Fox and hire Kubiak, Dennison and Wade, then RUN to a Championship? Me too; if we'd done it then we'd be ENJOYING our repeat instead of HOPING for one.

Dapper Dan
02-26-2016, 03:40 AM
Hasn't Elway gotten several OLmen while he's been here? This isn't the first time he's been focused on the OL.

Rick
02-26-2016, 07:00 AM
If Elway would just read this board instead of doing things like stack the defence, we might actually be coming off a super bowl win right now instead of the losing season we just had.

Rick
02-26-2016, 07:32 AM
As a side note, I am not hinting that people shouldn't express opinions on what should have been done differently.

There is a list a mile long of things I would have been done differently, Manning for example would not have played a single game for me last year, things this year that I would have done different than I am sure the team will do different, but at the end of the day we just won the ******* superbowl doing it NOT my way so what the hell can I say??

Ravage!!!
02-26-2016, 10:22 AM
Hallelujah. After ignoring MULTIPLE drafts where that was the consensus and we had HUGE line needs, I hope that Elway's 1) right and 2) serious.

They haven't ignored the OL in the draft, though. Not at all.

Ravage!!!
02-26-2016, 10:24 AM
Yeah: When we ran a 4-3, not a 3-4. Remember when Ware was a DE and Trevathan an OLB? Are they still?



Don't try to twist evertything to fit. Everyone knew you were wrong with this entire idea, and you are still wrong with the entire idea. It was ridiculous then, no matter what defense we were running.

NightTerror218
02-26-2016, 10:45 AM
Don't try to twist evertything to fit. Everyone knew you were wrong with this entire idea, and you are still wrong with the entire idea. It was ridiculous then, no matter what defense we were running.

He just tries to hide it in 1000 words or more.

Ware we an average DE. Ware and Miller are superior OLBs. Squares pegs don't fit in circular holes.

Travathan is a good Will 4-3 LB and ILB 3-4.

Joel
02-26-2016, 08:01 PM
They haven't ignored the OL in the draft, though. Not at all.
They didn't even spend a SECOND round pick on a lineman till LAST year: That's hardly prioritizing our LONE weak link, even though it was so glaring and crippling the whole NFL spent most of 2014 talking about it like—like I spent most of 2013 talking about it.... :ponder:


Don't try to twist evertything to fit. Everyone knew you were wrong with this entire idea, and you are still wrong with the entire idea. It was ridiculous then, no matter what defense we were running.
I twist nothing: Our 4-3 needed a master-of-all-trades MLB just as our 3-4 needs a master-of-all-trades OLB, and for the same reason. Don't try to twist a 4-3 OLB into a 3-4 OLB or I'll start calling you "Del Rio" (or worse, "Foxy.");)


He just tries to hide it in 1000 words or more.

Ware we an average DE. Ware and Miller are superior OLBs. Squares pegs don't fit in circular holes.

Travathan is a good Will 4-3 LB and ILB 3-4.
Ware wasn't an "average" 4-3 DE; he was elite just as he was and is an elite 3-4 OLB, just as Trevathan's an excellent 3-4 ILB and was an excellent 4-3 WLB.

NightTerror218
02-26-2016, 08:32 PM
They didn't even spend a SECOND round pick on a lineman till LAST year: That's hardly prioritizing our LONE weak link, even though it was so glaring and crippling the whole NFL spent most of 2014 talking about it like&mdash;like I spent most of 2013 talking about it.... :ponder:

I twist nothing: Our 4-3 needed a master-of-all-trades MLB just as our 3-4 needs a master-of-all-trades OLB, and for the same reason. Don't try to twist a 4-3 OLB into a 3-4 OLB or I'll start calling you "Del Rio" (or worse, "Foxy.");)

Ware wasn't an "average" 4-3 DE; he was elite just as he was and is an elite 3-4 OLB, just as Trevathan's an excellent 3-4 ILB and was an excellent 4-3 WLB.

If you count elite as half the number of sacks and less impact plays then as OLB. Sure......

Joel
02-26-2016, 10:17 PM
If you count elite as half the number of sacks and less impact plays then as OLB. Sure......
You realize he had 3 more sacks his final year at DE than he did THIS year at OLB, right? But let's compare a fully healthy DeMarcus Ware in his 20s to the guy in his 30s who lost several weeks to recurring back spasms in 2013 and TWO MONTHS to them in 2015. That's totally apples to apples. :rolleyes:

NightTerror218
02-26-2016, 10:45 PM
You realize he had 3 more sacks his final year at DE than he did THIS year at OLB, right? But let's compare a fully healthy DeMarcus Ware in his 20s to the guy in his 30s who lost several weeks to recurring back spasms in 2013 and TWO MONTHS to them in 2015. That's totally apples to apples. :rolleyes:

Um ok..........

Lancane
02-28-2016, 03:19 AM
Joel, while I agree with you somewhat...you may be reading far too much into this. When they say 'depth', it tends to mean throughout the draft. Denver loves Garcia, Sambrailo, Vasquez and Paradis, so they'll try and restructure Clady likely with most of what he wants in performance clauses, but if he is too stubborn then they'll cut him. Don't be surprised if they re-sign Harris as a backup to Ty and Ryan, and likely will draft some mid round guys with alot of upside, but that could change depending on what happens with Clady.

As for BPA, I believe it is in the eyes of the beholder, look at Wolfe. Bill Walsh had Joe Montana ranked above several quarterbacks but got him in the 3rd Round, BPA is not exact science because it can be just as flawed as those grading the players.

Joel
02-28-2016, 05:01 AM
Joel, while I agree with you somewhat...you may be reading far too much into this. When they say 'depth', it tends to mean throughout the draft. Denver loves Garcia, Sambrailo, Vasquez and Paradis, so they'll try and restructure Clady likely with most of what he wants in performance clauses, but if he is too stubborn then they'll cut him. Don't be surprised if they re-sign Harris as a backup to Ty and Ryan, and likely will draft some mid round guys with alot of upside, but that could change depending on what happens with Clady.
The highlighted part's what I expect, and wouldn't bother me as much as it might seem. If Clady bounces back reasonably well and Sambrailo's even close to what our scouts saw, the pair backed by a decent swing tackle in Harris would leave us in better shape for far less money than most teams.

The problem's that BOTH are coming off season-aborting injuries: Clady had yet another major injury to the same leg that will seemingly NEVER again be 100%, and Sambrailo lost the ONLY pro season we had to evaluate. Odds are at LEAST one of them's less than starting quality this year, so I'd like some early-round insurance. If nothing else, Clady turns 30 two days before Opening Day, and is (currently) under contract only through next season.

If/when Clady and Sambrailo are healthy I think we'll have better DEPTH at OT than at G. But I'm far less confident of our STARTERS on the edges than those inside. Our young QB's far more vulnerable there, and it's impossible to know the major injuries' long term effects (if any.) Coaching and conditioning can correct Paradis getting overpowered and stunts/delay blitzes fooling both him and Garcia, but if our OTs are physically incapable of pivoting and driving that's immutable.


As for BPA, I believe it is in the eyes of the beholder, look at Wolfe. Bill Walsh had Joe Montana ranked above several quarterbacks but got him in the 3rd Round, BPA is not exact science because it can be just as flawed as those grading the players.
Right, but two or three pro scout teams missing the top remaining player's far more plausible than twenty or thirty doing so. The drafts practicalities make it very difficult for playoff teams to improve with late picks: The best players are gone, and they have so many good ones so many places it's unlikely anyone left will be an improvement on any of them if the team just takes the best player regardless of position.

Yet in the cap era even SB teams have current/imminent holes to fill, and the best player even at #32 is an improvement IF he replaces a substandard starter. He's amazing, but drafting 6-7 Von Miller's quickly reaches marginal returns: That's why Shane Ray spent 2/3 of last season ON THE BENCH while we struggled to find even ONE starting quality OT to keep Manning and Oz upright >2 months at a time. Suppose the exact same thing happens this draft:

A pass rusher rated as a top five pick does something stupid right before the draft, dropping him to the end of the 1st: Should we take him? With TWO likely HoFers starting at OLB, backed by a second-year UDFA phenom and a second-year guy who DROPPED to the end of the 1st? If that happens EVERY year should we just keep drafting HoF DE/OLBs till we've got 53 of them? While our QB tries to MAKE as many sacks as he TAKES, and ends up in a cast by Halloween?

Sammy Baugh picking off more passes than he had picked off will always be impressive. But the post-war NFL is a specialists world, where players become the very best at the few things they're paid to do well by neglecting things they aren't paid to do at all. They still have diverse and excellent physical ability, but their skills in things OTHER specialists are paid to do exceptionally well will always be awful by comparison; the CBA permits only so many practice hours per week.

Teams like the Jags and Browns should take the Best Athlete Available: They can have practically ANY of them and currently have NONE, so can't afford to pass up elite talent just to focus on lesser talent that fills only ONE of their countless holes. But most playoff teams have few holes and are restricted to lesser talent, so THEY can't afford to ignore the few needs preventing a championship just to stockpile elite players who'll never see the field. One size does not fit all.

WARHORSE
02-28-2016, 01:12 PM
John is determined to get the run game to the dominant level. With a great defense, a dominant run game and Brock, we can very possibly repeat. YESSSSSSS!

Joel
02-28-2016, 01:51 PM
John is determined to get the run game to the dominant level. With a great defense, a dominant run game and Brock, we can very possibly repeat. YESSSSSSS!
Very possible, as long as we don't hemorrhage too many defenders trying to give all of them AND Oz 8-figure deals. If nothing else, dominant D and reliable running would make Oz' growing pains much easier, and keep us respectable long enough to find a replacement if Oz proves a flash in the pan (although in that scenario 6-10 might be more desirable than 10-6.)

I certainly HOPE we repeat, because we currently have a grand total of 21 guys under contract past 2016. How Elway re-signs/replaces 32 other players in a SINGLE YEAR may be the biggest test he's faced since returning to a 4-12 team that had the #2 overall pick but no QB nor coach worthy of the name. All the more reason giving Malik Jackson ALONE $10-15M/yr appeals far less than giving it to half a dozen more of those guys before they've built highlight reels to demand more.

VonDoom
02-28-2016, 02:22 PM
According to a report from CBS Sports NFL Draft Insider Tony Pauline (via WalterFootball) the Denver Broncos and Seattle Seahawks are targeting Texas A&M offensive tackle Germain Ifedi at the bottom of round one.

Back in October of 2015, I had Ifedi as my #23 rated prospect and mocked him to Denver in their first-round selection a few weeks later in my annual mid-season mock. Denver's interest in Ifedi makes sense. He is a tremendous prospect with a lot of upside who could be a starter at either guard or tackle from day one and instantly improve the teams' trench game on the offensive side of the ball.

Ifedi measured in at the NFL Combine at 6'5, 324 pounds with an 36" arms, 10 3/4" hands and a wingspan. He displayed his athleticism by running a 5.27 40 yard dash (a good number considering his size), did 24 reps of 225 pounds, posted a 9 foot 1 inch broad jump and a short shuttle time of 4.75. (For a full list of NFL Combine results at all positions, check out this link.)

In his time with the Aggies, Ifedi has seen time at numerous offensive line positions at both left and right tackle, as well as right guard. He is a three-year starter with tremendous upside and the ability to become a great NFL tackle. However, he must improve his technique and discipline as a player if he want to reach his true potential

http://www.milehighreport.com/2016/2/28/11129476/2016-nfl-draft-broncos-targeting-ot-germain-ifedi

Joel
02-28-2016, 03:48 PM
If he's got strength, speed, reflexes and size, Dennison can coach him up, but even Seattle picks well before us. It might be hard to trade up without GIVING up a lot, too, because we don't have a 4th rounder and traded away one of our 5ths (Wikipedia says it's unclear whether that was our natural pick at the end of round 5 or Baltimores #5; makes a big difference.) Definitely sounds like the kind of guy I'd want, but stuff like that's why those guys rarely last till #31.

LTC Pain
02-28-2016, 03:51 PM
Best Player Available (BPA) in the first round. Do not reach for perceived need.

Joel
02-28-2016, 04:01 PM
Best Player Available (BPA) in the first round. Do not reach for perceived need.
So Best Player LEFT in the 1st? Because 4 All Pro OLBs aren't enough: We need a FIFTH to defend our championship (from the bench.) If the BP"A" at #31 is a QB, do we take him and dump Oz? Maybe a CB: We may need him if three of ours get hurt! What if the Best Player Left at #31 is a RB; is a RB in the 1st a good investment?

NightTerror218
02-28-2016, 09:23 PM
So Best Player LEFT in the 1st? Because 4 All Pro OLBs aren't enough: We need a FIFTH to defend our championship (from the bench.) If the BP"A" at #31 is a QB, do we take him and dump Oz? Maybe a CB: We may need him if three of ours get hurt! What if the Best Player Left at #31 is a RB; is a RB in the 1st a good investment?

Depends on a teams draft board every team has different boards. You say this every year and yet we have Roby, Sly and Ray. I would not rely on what NFL or ESPN says the BPA is on their rankings during the draft.

Point is Elway will not go into draft focusing on 1 position or position group for #31. He will take BPA that can contribute the most now or who will step into starting role soon. Von and Wolfe have been only rookies to start full season. Others have taken a year or so. Roby will most likely take Talib's spot at some point and ray will most likely the wares.

Joel
02-29-2016, 05:18 AM
Depends on a teams draft board every team has different boards. You say this every year and yet we have Roby, Sly and Ray.
2015: Our 1st round pick spent 2/3 of the season on the bench; unless we cut Ware or his back sends him to IR it'll be the same this year. So we'll get TWO seasons of starts from him (maybe three if he's good enough we use our club option after that,) then pay him Von money or release him.

2014: Our 1st rounder started immediately, but at the expense of relegating Webster to STs despite camp reporters raving about his huge offseason improvement following a good rookie season; next year he'll almost certainly leave to start elsewhere unless we cut Talib (I can only hope.)

2013: The 1st rounder before THAT was on the bench till Vickerson got hurt, then played second banana to Knighton for 1˝ seasons before finally emerging as our defensive lines anchor this year: We get one more season out of him before his contract ends in 2017.

Three 1st round picks with SIX pro seasons between them, but on the field for barely HALF that time—and now their contracts are ending. 1st round picks are for impactful immediate starters; if we just want guys to develop over several seasons there are plenty in later rounds.


I would not rely on what NFL or ESPN says the BPA is on their rankings during the draft.

Point is Elway will not go into draft focusing on 1 position or position group for #31. He will take BPA that can contribute the most now or who will step into starting role soon. Von and Wolfe have been only rookies to start full season. Others have taken a year or so. Roby will most likely take Talib's spot at some point and ray will most likely the wares.
Sure: NEXT year, Robys FINAL year under contract, and Rays penultimate one. While we try to work out a deal to keep Sly on the roster. That's not 1st round value; stepping into a starting role in TWO OR THREE YEARS isn't "soon."

Last year our starting QB AND RB went down halfway through the season, and just 7 more games inflicted enough damage on Oz that our BACKUP QB went down, too; fortunately Manning had healed up just enough to stumble through a playoff run to his final championship: While our 1st round #4 OLB pick spent 2/3 of the season on the bench and guys like Michael Schofield STARTED on our Swiss cheese line. That's not 1st round value either.

That's not about our scouts disagreeing with the NFLs scouts about who genuinely is the BEST player LEFT at #31: Again, if the indisputably and unanimously agreed BEST player left at #31 is another OLB, CB, RB, QB, K or P, would that be a good use of our 1st round pick? That's roughly HALF the positions that exist, so if the answer's "no" we're already talking about prioritizing need over talent.

Bottom line: Drafting a player a team doesn't expect to use in the foreseeable future wastes picks and cap space that are both at a premium. That's not good in ANY round, and part of why we must re-sign or release 32 players within the next year. But with a 1st rounders multi-million dollar 4-5 year contracts, drafting guys to spend half their contract on the bench "seasoning" ties the cap in knots for very little return.

Don't draft players you can't use.

Why's that controversial? Because GBs '05, '06 and '08 seasons were bad enough they had high picks to use on the BPA, then won a SB? How's BPA worked out for them since they've been back in the playoffs every year? Answer: They lost the ONLY CCG they've reached in 5 tries. Mainly because of gaping holes in their secondary, offensive line and offensive backfield, each of which playoff opponents gleefully exploited.

You're right it depends on each teams board, but that's not just a matter of where it differs/agrees with the consensus on which players are most talented. And people are right when noting an ebb and flow between need and talent (after all, that's basically my whole point, and leaves .500 teams in a no mans land where they have too many holes to prioritize just a few, but no high picks to get the top talent.)

Yet, as a general rule, a teams talent is inversely proportional to the talent "available" AND the talent it "needs." Deep playoff runs already make the drafts "best" UNavailable, so why not get a roleplayer who actually and significantly improves the team, rather than "reaching" for a potential HoFer when all the LEGIT potential HoFers are already long gone and the one being considered must sit on the bench for YEARS behind a couple All Pros anyway?

If we a bunch of injuries and bad luck leave us well below .500 in 2016, spending a top five or ten pick on a guy like Von Miller might make sense. But guys like that don't drop to #31, and can't help the team much on the bench anyway, so for NOW let's get someone we can use to stay on top.

Joel
02-29-2016, 05:24 AM
Say I just bought a brand new high quality fridge, washing machine and dryer but my stove catches fire even when not being used. If I go into Sears and come out with a SECOND brand new high quality fridge because "it was on sale; I saved $200!" but still have a fire hazard in my kitchen, did I accomplish anything? Unless I can sell the old or new fridge for enough to buy a stove (i.e. trade one of two studs at a position for another somewhere I have a hole) I WASTED (a lot of) money.

Except we're talking about the SB Champs 1st rounder, so we're not going to Sears: We're going to Goodwill.

VonDoom
02-29-2016, 07:32 AM
2015: Our 1st round pick spent 2/3 of the season on the bench; unless we cut Ware or his back sends him to IR it'll be the same this year. So we'll get TWO seasons of starts from him (maybe three if he's good enough we use our club option after that,) then pay him Von money or release him.

2014: Our 1st rounder started immediately, but at the expense of relegating Webster to STs despite camp reporters raving about his huge offseason improvement following a good rookie season; next year he'll almost certainly leave to start elsewhere unless we cut Talib (I can only hope.)

2013: The 1st rounder before THAT was on the bench till Vickerson got hurt, then played second banana to Knighton for 1˝ seasons before finally emerging as our defensive lines anchor this year: We get one more season out of him before his contract ends in 2017.

Three 1st round picks with SIX pro seasons between them, but on the field for barely HALF that time—and now their contracts are ending. 1st round picks are for impactful immediate starters; if we just want guys to develop over several seasons there are plenty in later rounds.


Sure: NEXT year, Robys FINAL year under contract, and Rays penultimate one. While we try to work out a deal to keep Sly on the roster. That's not 1st round value; stepping into a starting role in TWO OR THREE YEARS isn't "soon."

Last year our starting QB AND RB went down halfway through the season, and just 7 more games inflicted enough damage on Oz that our BACKUP QB went down, too; fortunately Manning had healed up just enough to stumble through a playoff run to his final championship: While our 1st round #4 OLB pick spent 2/3 of the season on the bench and guys like Michael Schofield STARTED on our Swiss cheese line. That's not 1st round value either.

That's not about our scouts disagreeing with the NFLs scouts about who genuinely is the BEST player LEFT at #31: Again, if the indisputably and unanimously agreed BEST player left at #31 is another OLB, CB, RB, QB, K or P, would that be a good use of our 1st round pick? That's roughly HALF the positions that exist, so if the answer's "no" we're already talking about prioritizing need over talent.

Bottom line: Drafting a player a team doesn't expect to use in the foreseeable future wastes picks and cap space that are both at a premium. That's not good in ANY round, and part of why we must re-sign or release 32 players within the next year. But with a 1st rounders multi-million dollar 4-5 year contracts, drafting guys to spend half their contract on the bench "seasoning" ties the cap in knots for very little return.

Don't draft players you can't use.



I can't really agree with this. First, a good team (like the Broncos) has a lot of good players across the board. They're also drafting late every year. You say we need o-line help. Fine, we do. What makes you think that whoever is there at #31 will be better than a DE, for example, who we can also use if Jackson leaves? If we're drafting solely on need, we're forcing a pick. No one should HAVE to draft a particular position. One of the great things Elway has done is not have holes going into a draft. Meaning we could field a quality team before we even get to our draft picks. From there, we're hoping to upgrade, of course, but drafting depth, giving guys time to develop and then replacing more expensive players when they leave is the model of a smart franchise. We drafted a guy in the second round last year who would have been our starting RT in a perfect world. Should we have drafted a guy in the first? Would he have been better than Sambrailo? Who knows? There are o-linemen drafted with the first pick overall that are floundering right now. A first round lineman isn't a guarantee of anything.

You mention our recent first rounders. Sly was a starter in a 4-3, then replaced Knighton and was great this year. Roby helped our secondary become the deepest in the league and allowed Wade to leave them on islands. Ray only has a year under his belt and is learning from Miller and Ware. Before the year started, most of us assumed Ware was gone, so drafting a quality replacement early made sense. Weren't you the one who wanted Talib to be cut this year? Who do you think replaces him?

Anybody who says "BPA is the only way to draft" is also wrong. Most people know it's BPA at a position that can actually help the team. First rounders, especially late first rounders, aren't always going to be impact players the year they are drafted. Like I said, letting someone develop and then seamlessly moving them up is why great teams constantly stay great.

Rick
02-29-2016, 07:47 AM
Wonder if people will go apeshit if we take that Notre Dame kid and IR him for a year lol

Joel
02-29-2016, 08:39 AM
I can't really agree with this. First, a good team (like the Broncos) has a lot of good players across the board. They're also drafting late every year. You say we need o-line help. Fine, we do. What makes you think that whoever is there at #31 will be better than a DE, for example, who we can also use if Jackson leaves? If we're drafting solely on need, we're forcing a pick. No one should HAVE to draft a particular position. One of the great things Elway has done is not have holes going into a draft. Meaning we could field a quality team before we even get to our draft picks.
Except that's false: We've had GAPING holes at safety and on the offensive line since before ELWAY (let along Manning) came home. Holes that cost us a DOUBLE OVERTIME game against the eventual SB Champs (i.e. who stops us if we win a DOT game against a team that beat everyone else?) got us BLOWN OUT of the next SB and sent us home one-and-done against a one-man team the next year. We were STACKED everywhere else AND had the GoAT under center, but are patting ourselves on the back for "kicking and screaming" to ONE Championship when we could've had 2 or 3!

When the whole league spends the whole regular season talking about how awful your offensive line is, you didn't "go into the draft with no holes."


From there, we're hoping to upgrade, of course, but drafting depth, giving guys time to develop and then replacing more expensive players when they leave is the model of a smart franchise. We drafted a guy in the second round last year who would have been our starting RT in a perfect world. Should we have drafted a guy in the first? Would he have been better than Sambrailo? Who knows? There are o-linemen drafted with the first pick overall that are floundering right now. A first round lineman isn't a guarantee of anything.
You don't think ANY of the TEN offensive linemen (and EIGHT OTs) drafted ahead of Sambrailo are better than he is? If our scouts are THAT much better than those of ALL 31 other teams, we can pretty much draft whoever we like: The mouthbreathers running the other scout teams will consistently drop every HoFer in our lap no matter what. But they dropped a talented OLB, so we took him, kept him on the bench most of last year (and probably this year) and used up BOTH our QBs before the playoffs even started! If not for the #1 D, there's no way 2 months of convalescence would've allowed Manning to win a championship playing hurt.


You mention our recent first rounders. Sly was a starter in a 4-3, then replaced Knighton and was great this year. Roby helped our secondary become the deepest in the league and allowed Wade to leave them on islands. Ray only has a year under his belt and is learning from Miller and Ware. Before the year started, most of us assumed Ware was gone, so drafting a quality replacement early made sense. Weren't you the one who wanted Talib to be cut this year? Who do you think replaces him?
Well, I certainly didn't assume this was Ware would retire rather than play out his final year, but we'd still have the 2016 draft and FA to replace him if he had. And yes, part of why I want to cut Talib is because Roby would replace him and Webster would replace Roby: But unless we INTENDED to cut a 29-year-old CB earning $10M/yr, why use that pick on another CB? Bearing in mind that Talib wasn't even ON THE TEAM when we drafted Roby.

Sly WASN'T a starter till Vickersons dislocated hip sent him to IR halfway through 2013, and even then he was just a complement to Knighton until 2015: He only became a key player in our 2015 3-4, TWO FULL YEARS after we drafted him. We get ONE more season out of him, then he's a UFA. Two quality seasons for a 1st round pick sound like a good return?

We'll be lucky to get even THAT much out of Ray: He didn't start last year and probably won't this year unless we cut the #1 Ds captain, but maybe he'll start by his THIRD year. So we'll get TWO whole seasons out of yet another 1st rounder, then a club option if he plays well enough to justify it.

Roby's the ONLY one who's produced like a 1st rounder should, but, once again, that meant relegating a 3rd rounder to STs even though he could start on most teams: Next year he WILL start—but not for US unless we cut Talib, because Websters contract is up and he's too good to spend his career on STs.

Is there ANY doubt THREE 1st round picks on offensive linemen would've produced far more than 3-4 seasons of decent starts in 6 years? I doubt we'd have gone into December 2015 with TWO QBs AND our starting RB crippled by multiple injuries.


Anybody who says "BPA is the only way to draft" is also wrong. Most people know it's BPA at a position that can actually help the team. First rounders, especially late first rounders, aren't always going to be impact players the year they are drafted. Like I said, letting someone develop and then seamlessly moving them up is why great teams constantly stay great.
Sure, it's always a blend, but the balance is almost inevitably tilted toward one or the other. The direction it SHOULD be tilted has a lot to do with the teams overall talent and draft position, but the first usually determines the second.

Cleveland or Jacksonville can pretty much take it to the bank that the BPA in the top ten immediately and significantly improves them WHATEVER his position: They don't have many All Pros keeping guys on the bench in the first place, and the top talent available in the top five or ten 1st round picks is usually pretty amazing.

That's not us though, hasn't been for a long time, because whatever Elway does/n't in the draft he consistently OWNS free agency. Except: He's been a GM long enough now that his original rookies are hitting the end of their contracts just as his FAs are getting too old/expensive to keep on the roster: That's why we have >30 players whose contracts expire either next week or next year. Hopefully Elway hit a lot of HRs in the last two and next two drafts; he's gonna need 'em.

VonDoom
02-29-2016, 09:44 AM
Except that's false: We've had GAPING holes at safety and on the offensive line since before ELWAY (let along Manning) came home. Holes that cost us a DOUBLE OVERTIME game against the eventual SB Champs (i.e. who stops us if we win a DOT game against a team that beat everyone else?) got us BLOWN OUT of the next SB and sent us home one-and-done against a one-man team the next year. We were STACKED everywhere else AND had the GoAT under center, but are patting ourselves on the back for "kicking and screaming" to ONE Championship when we could've had 2 or 3!

When the whole league spends the whole regular season talking about how awful your offensive line is, you didn't "go into the draft with no holes."


We went into last year's draft with these guys on the roster for the o-line (if I remember correctly): Clady, Vasquez, Paradis, Gradkowski, Smith, Schofield, Clark, Cornick, Garland. I might be forgetting someone, but that's basically right. You could make a case that you could cobble together a line from those guys before we drafted anyone. We didn't draft out of desperation. But we did spend two draft picks on o-line in the first four rounds, then brought in Harris, Polumbus and Mathis when guys were hurt / ineffective. No one counted on losing our two starting tackles for the year. You might not like how the position was addressed, but as we've said before, it was addressed.

I can't remember who went ahead of Sambrailo last year, but at this point, linemen are not plug and play anymore. There were multiple articles on this just last week when the combine was happening. Guys like Tyron Smith are the exception, not the rule. How are Joeckel and Fisher doing? I'm sure if we had the top pick that year, you would have "demanded" (or whatever word you used) that we draft one of them since they were the best at their position. They've both been underwhelming at best.

The bolded part of your statement, though, is really where you lose me. Elway has spent every draft since he's been here drafting defense first and guess what? We won a Super Bowl with one of the best defenses of all time. Do you really wonder why people around here criticize you for being negative? We just won a Super Bowl a few weeks ago, but you're saying we would have won two or three if only they had followed your suggestions.

Joel
02-29-2016, 09:45 AM
The forums dislike the formatting, so I'll link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/draft.htm). 2012 was Elways best draft, and he got good mileage from 2011 players most fans wish HADN'T started. Only Von and Green are left from 2011, only Sly and Webster from 2013. The 2012-2015 classes as a whole... 29 players with a combined 60 seasons since drafted, but only 12 seasons starting for us or ANYONE. That's pretty dismal; including 2011 makes it better, but with "starters" like Moore, Franklin, Irving and Teal Julius.

So 6-7 starters and 3-4 role players out of 29 picks in 4 years: The rest are gone. Most who ARE left are UFAs, so we're sure to lose more in a matter of weeks, if not days. We'll probably lose Trevathan and Hillman, one or both of Bruton and Bolden, hopefully Jackson, too. I say, "hopefully," because that's the only way I can see us re-signing Von, Oz and everyone else who's contracts expire either next week or next year.

Within a month we'll have 3-4 starters and 1-2 role players out of 29 picks in 4 years. That can't keep champs on top.

dogfish
02-29-2016, 11:11 AM
oh, if only elway could be as smart as joel! then we could win every single year. . .


:lol: :spit: :pound: :rofl:

NightTerror218
02-29-2016, 11:28 AM
oh, if only elway could be as smart as joel! then we could win every single year. . .

:lol: :spit: :pound: :rofl:

Elway would do the same as everyone else and not read his posts. TLDR

NightTerror218
02-29-2016, 11:32 AM
Joel do you not grasp common sense because you claim to be so smart?

Elway will never go into draft saying I need OL and that is all I will draft round 1.

There are many places we need depth as well as some starters. But we just won the SB. You do not do that with crappy depth beyond starters. This roster is stacked. It is hard for a 1st rounder to crack the starting line up.

Most DL rookies, even 1st rounders start as rotational players and earn more snaps. Just like Sly.

Roby is a 1st round pick. He will get the 5th year. He has 2 more years on 4 year contract. 3 more total with broncos. Sly has 1 year left with 5th year option.

Joel
02-29-2016, 12:46 PM
Joel do you not grasp common sense because you claim to be so smart?
Not sure where I've ever claimed that. I usually get in trouble for presuming OTHERS smarter than they're willing to be; this is one of those times, IMHO.


Elway will never go into draft saying I need OL and that is all I will draft round 1.
Nor should he: That's not our only need (if only,) just the most urgent one. We're probably losing a very good starting ILB to FA, Stewart's only under contract one more year, Hillman's probably gone and an RFA tender only covers CJ for a single year, Sanders is a FA next year, a club option only covers Sly for one year etc.


There are many places we need depth as well as some starters. But we just won the SB. You do not do that with crappy depth beyond starters. This roster is stacked. It is hard for a 1st rounder to crack the starting line up.
Depends on the position: We had a 4th round rookie and a couple 2nd year PS guys start on the LINE for MOST of 2015, after a 2nd round rookie went from starting RT to starting LT to IR. An early round safety would've started most of the playoffs if we'd HAD one; instead we had to go waiver wire hunting on the fly when Ward and Stewart both got hurt after Bruton broke his leg.


Most DL rookies, even 1st rounders start as rotational players and earn more snaps. Just like Sly.
Sly started as a backup because we already HAD two stud behemoths starting; if BOTH hadn't left in FA he'd have STILL been a backup in his THIRD year. That wasn't learning curve, it was too many too good players in front of him: Same reason last year's 1st rounder's #4 on the depth chart his SECOND year.


Roby is a 1st round pick. He will get the 5th year. He has 2 more years on 4 year contract. 3 more total with broncos. Sly has 1 year left with 5th year option.
I've just relied on Spotrac there, and it only shows a club option on some of our 1st rounders (though I don't know why we'd get it for some but not all.) Either way, Roby's the only 1st rounder we'll get >1 or MAYBE 2 years out of before they're UFAs. The only good news is that may not be enough time for Sly or Ray to establish themselves as the kind of big name players who command big contracts, though the smart money says Sly will prove himself dominant just in time to get paid.

Joel
02-29-2016, 01:18 PM
Elway would do the same as everyone else and not read his posts. TLDR
Elway got into Stanford, and memorized both Reeves' and Shannys playbooks: His concentration probably exceeds twitters character limit.

Inability/unwillingness to read >2 sentences says more of the readers intellect than the authors (sorry if I "insulted" anyone by expecting more of them.)

MOtorboat
02-29-2016, 02:03 PM
The forums dislike the formatting, so I'll link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/draft.htm). 2012 was Elways best draft, and he got good mileage from 2011 players most fans wish HADN'T started. Only Von and Green are left from 2011, only Sly and Webster from 2013. The 2012-2015 classes as a whole... 29 players with a combined 60 seasons since drafted, but only 12 seasons starting for us or ANYONE. That's pretty dismal; including 2011 makes it better, but with "starters" like Moore, Franklin, Irving and Teal Julius.

So 6-7 starters and 3-4 role players out of 29 picks in 4 years: The rest are gone. Most who ARE left are UFAs, so we're sure to lose more in a matter of weeks, if not days. We'll probably lose Trevathan and Hillman, one or both of Bruton and Bolden, hopefully Jackson, too. I say, "hopefully," because that's the only way I can see us re-signing Von, Oz and everyone else who's contracts expire either next week or next year.

Within a month we'll have 3-4 starters and 1-2 role players out of 29 picks in 4 years. That can't keep champs on top.

I'll just assume that you can make those types of sweeping judgments about Elway's "dismal" draft record because you've compared it to all 32 other teams.

BroncoNut
02-29-2016, 04:19 PM
it totally cracks me up how much response Joel produces. so often the TLDR, Post too long, didn't read, then commenting on the content. it just bewilders me.

Joel
02-29-2016, 05:09 PM
it totally cracks me up how much response Joel produces. so often the TLDR, Post too long, didn't read, then commenting on the content. it just bewilders me.
Imagine how I feel: "I don't have time to read your verbose drivel—I only have time to quote it AND WRITE a complaint!" :tongue:

I'd LIKE to say needing more time to read than write is a sign of carefully considering points and measuring a response: Except these are people who outright ADMIT not reading ANY of them. The only possible conclusion that leaves is that we're dealing with the Type First, Think Later school of argument. :tsk:

Joel
02-29-2016, 05:15 PM
I'll just assume that you can make those types of sweeping judgments about Elway's "dismal" draft record because you've compared it to all 32 other teams.
You need to check other teams to know whether 4 starters and a backup in 4 drafts is bad? We could've traded them all for TWICE that, probably MORE.

MOtorboat
02-29-2016, 05:26 PM
You need to check other teams to know whether 4 starters and a backup in 4 drafts is bad? We could've traded them all for TWICE that, probably MORE.

In Week 17, the Broncos started 14 guys that were draft picks or undrafted free agents on draft night or in the following days. So where this number of 4 comes from, I don't know. The turnover in the NFL is pretty astounding. Look at the starters between teams that make the Super Bowl three or four years apart. They are almost always different. So, no, I'm not going to make that sweeping judgment call like you. Perspective.

Timmy!
02-29-2016, 05:26 PM
http://i50.tinypic.com/2v9c84p.gif

MOtorboat
02-29-2016, 05:31 PM
For a little perspective, across the ball in that game, the Chargers had 11.

Joel
02-29-2016, 07:35 PM
In Week 17, the Broncos started 14 guys that were draft picks or undrafted free agents on draft night or in the following days.
Canada called: They said they've got plenty of their own goalposts without any American moving his 2000 miles.

It's well established Elway cleans up in FA; it's bizarre that he's better in bidding wars than when he has exclusive rights, and yet: Of those 14, how many were or are FAs, and how many draft picks under contract past 2016? We've got 2 picks left from 2011 (both UFAs now,) 2 from 2013 and a whole bunch from 2012, but 12, 13, 14, 15: Oh, look FIVE of our 2012 draft picks are FAs, and we're almost guaranteed to lose AT LEAST three.

Again, 2012 was Elways best draft so far, but we got 4 seasons of starts from Wolfe, 2 from Trevathan, 1 each from Hillman and Jackson, and NONE from anyone else. Now EVERYONE but Wolfe and MAYBE Oz is leaving for huge contracts we can't afford. Good job on Wolfe, especially locking for the rest of the decade BEFORE his contract (and our leverage) ended, but I'd like >2 starting seasons out of >1 player in an ENTIRE DRAFT CLASS.

You really wanna look around to see if any other team beats that? Because if none do it's good enough, right?

BroncoNut
02-29-2016, 07:40 PM
Joel did you get a superbowl 50 tshirt or anything? One that's says the broncos won it?

MOtorboat
02-29-2016, 07:41 PM
Canada called: They said they've got plenty of their own goalposts without any Americans moving theirs 2000 miles.

Why does he not get credit for signing UDFA's?

Because you wouldn't have anything to whine about? I mean, Denver drafted 4/5 of the five players that pass rush, and two of their backups, one a draft pick and the other a UDFA are studs. It developed both of its inside linebackers and is developing a pair of stud corners, one a draft pick and one a UDFA. And, they just won a damn Super Bowl with more than half of the starters developed in-house.

Forgive me if your whining seems shallow and petty right now.

Joel
02-29-2016, 07:56 PM
Joel did you get a superbowl 50 tshirt or anything? One that's says the broncos won it?
Gonna get a new cap, but I'm waiting till finalizing a job now that I'm back Stateside. Between a Broncos SB XXXII-XXXIII cap I wear everywhere, a Broncos field jacket I wear nearly everywhere (amazingly comfy, and light yet warm,) a Broncos wallet and a Broncos mug, I think I'm sporting my team colors adequately. ;)

Another reason I'm glad we won (really:) My cap was already pretty faded, but when I threw it the washer after sweating across an ocean and back wearing it, the dryer pretty much shredded the rim liner. I really need a new one, but "2015 AFC Champs" was no more appealing than "2013 AFC Champs." This is America: Finishing 2nd just makes you the biggest LOSER.

Joel
02-29-2016, 08:03 PM
Why does he not get credit for signing UDFA's?
He gets tons of credit for signing UDFAs: Again, Elway consistently wins FA, and by a wide margin. He just doesn't get credit for DRAFTING them (because, y'know, HE DIDN'T.) Again, no idea why he does much better in an open market than when he can monopolize a player, but the record's pretty definitive.


Because you wouldn't have anything to whine about? I mean, Denver drafted 4/5 of the five players that pass rush, and two of their backups, one a draft pick and the other a UDFA are studs. It developed both of its inside linebackers and is developing a pair of stud corners, one a draft pick and one a UDFA. And, they just won a damn Super Bowl with more than half of the starters developed in-house.

Forgive me if your whining seems shallow and petty right now.
It's also well established we won that SB primarily with FAs though, not draft picks who spent half their contracts riding pine. We could've traded most or all draft picks except Von for stud starters and gotten 4 seasons ON THE FIELD out of them, and MORE of them to boot. Hell, we took a RB in the 3rd in 2012 and ANOTHER in the 2nd in 2013; result? BOTH lost the starting job to an UDFA who outperformed them; the 2nd round pick's not even in the NFL two years later.

Is there a way to trade draft picks for FA "selections"? Please...?

TXBRONC
02-29-2016, 08:20 PM
I can't really agree with this. First, a good team (like the Broncos) has a lot of good players across the board. They're also drafting late every year. You say we need o-line help. Fine, we do. What makes you think that whoever is there at #31 will be better than a DE, for example, who we can also use if Jackson leaves? If we're drafting solely on need, we're forcing a pick. No one should HAVE to draft a particular position. One of the great things Elway has done is not have holes going into a draft. Meaning we could field a quality team before we even get to our draft picks. From there, we're hoping to upgrade, of course, but drafting depth, giving guys time to develop and then replacing more expensive players when they leave is the model of a smart franchise. We drafted a guy in the second round last year who would have been our starting RT in a perfect world. Should we have drafted a guy in the first? Would he have been better than Sambrailo? Who knows? There are o-linemen drafted with the first pick overall that are floundering right now. A first round lineman isn't a guarantee of anything.

You mention our recent first rounders. Sly was a starter in a 4-3, then replaced Knighton and was great this year. Roby helped our secondary become the deepest in the league and allowed Wade to leave them on islands. Ray only has a year under his belt and is learning from Miller and Ware. Before the year started, most of us assumed Ware was gone, so drafting a quality replacement early made sense. Weren't you the one who wanted Talib to be cut this year? Who do you think replaces him?

Anybody who says "BPA is the only way to draft" is also wrong. Most people know it's BPA at a position that can actually help the team. First rounders, especially late first rounders, aren't always going to be impact players the year they are drafted. Like I said, letting someone develop and then seamlessly moving them up is why great teams constantly stay great.

Does Eric Fisher ring a bell? He was taken in the top 10 and has been a flop.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-29-2016, 08:25 PM
7 of the starters from the best defense on the planet were home grown talent. I'd say that's really freakin ' good. 4 of them are all-pro caliber players.
Von Miller
Derek Wolfe
Malik Jackson
Chris Harris

I would even venture to say Roby is on the cusp of being at that level. I believe he could start for any team in the league, and would probably be the best corner on close to half the teams. He might not be all pro, but he's quite possibly top 20 at his position.

Bronco4ever
02-29-2016, 08:38 PM
I'm with Joel. The season was a failure because not all of our starters were Elway draft picks.

MOtorboat
02-29-2016, 09:22 PM
He gets tons of credit for signing UDFAs: Again, Elway consistently wins FA, and by a wide margin. He just doesn't get credit for DRAFTING them (because, y'know, HE DIDN'T.) Again, no idea why he does much better in an open market than when he can monopolize a player, but the record's pretty definitive.


It's also well established we won that SB primarily with FAs though, not draft picks who spent half their contracts riding pine. We could've traded most or all draft picks except Von for stud starters and gotten 4 seasons ON THE FIELD out of them, and MORE of them to boot. Hell, we took a RB in the 3rd in 2012 and ANOTHER in the 2nd in 2013; result? BOTH lost the starting job to an UDFA who outperformed them; the 2nd round pick's not even in the NFL two years later.

Is there a way to trade draft picks for FA "selections"? Please...?

Lol.

GEM
02-29-2016, 09:53 PM
Snap Counts
Positions listed reflect those shown in the gamebook



Def.
ST






Num
Pct
Num
Pct



Shane Ray (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RayxSh00.htm)
341
31.11%
38
8.12%
Shane Ray 2015 game-by-game snap counts (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RayxSh00/fantasy/2015)




Great: Sound like a 1st round pick? A guy you trade UP for in the 1st? Expect much more this year? Because he'll only have two plus a club option left after that; is 2-3 years of solid play enough to get off a 1st rounder before either paying him $10-15M/yr? Is a guy making any less on his next contract worth a 1st round pick?

I'm not saying he sucks, I'm saying playing <1/3 of snaps at an above average level=/=1st round value we BADLY needed elsewhere. If we hadn't had Von AND Ware AND Barrett I'd have been overjoyed to get Ray—but we DID have all three, with nothing but sophomore PS guys, career journeymen, rookies and washed up vets trying to help Vasquez do the job of five men. Same as the last two seasons when Manning limped to the finish as best he could with NO protection NOR run support. Oz was starting by midseason because Manning was too hurt to play even halfway decent; by the playoffs, Manning was back and playing hurt because OZ was too hurt to play even halfway decent. But at least our 4th best OLB and 5th or 6th pass rusher had a great rookie year, despite spending most of it ON THE BENCH. :)

Just like I'm not saying Sly sucks: He's a great NT I'm VERY grateful to have—I just think THREE SEASONS is too long to wait for a 1st round pick to become our lines lynchpin rather than a roleplayer. Not because he sucks, but because he only emerged as a leader THIS year and his contract expires NEXT year. Call me crazy, but I want >1-2 good seasons out of a 1st round pick; if that's all we're looking for, there are plenty of guys like that to be had in the 3rd or 4th round.

He has Ware and Miller in front of him. We'll see his actual potential in the coming seasons and when he comes up for a contract the market will be fair because we've had him somewhat hidden.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-29-2016, 10:05 PM
He has Ware and Miller in front of him. We'll see his actual potential in the coming seasons and when he comes up for a contract the market will be fair because we've had him somewhat hidden.

Teams pay a premium for a pass rush specialist. Aldon Smith was drafted close to where Shane Ray was and he was also a part time player and didn't have the competition. Ray faces.
Just measuring snap counts is not an accurate to measure productivity. Shane had a huge impact on multiple games this year. I think he may have even had a game ending sack. I am thrilled they took him at #17 instead of a LG who would have played 50 snaps a game.

MOtorboat
03-01-2016, 02:15 AM
For some perspective, instead of the blanket "Elway sucks at drafting" line.

Home grown players who are "starters" - Includes no backups or special teams players:
From an amalgamation of Week 17 starters and the Starters and Rosters list from www.pro-football-reference.com
O-Offense
D-Defense
T-Total players home grown
Draft - From the draft
UDFA - Players each team signed as UDFA
Rd1 - Players selected in Round 1
Rd2 - Players selected in Round 2
Rd3-7 - Players selected in Rounds 3-7
Rd3-7 L4 - Players selected in the last four drafts from the 3rd through 7th round (2011-2015)


O D T Draft UDFA Rd1 Rd2 Rd3-7 Rd3-7 L4
Ben 11 8 19 17 2 5 5 7 4
Tex 9 8 17 15 2 7 2 6 5
Pat 8 8 16 15 1 4 3 8 5
Chi 8 7 15 13 2 6 2 5 5
Pit 5 6 15 11 4 7 2 2 0
Jag 7 6 13 12 1 4 4 4 4
Bro 6 6 12 11 1 3 1 7 5
Col 9 3 12 10 2 2 2 6 5
Cha 4 8 12 10 2 5 4 1 1
Cle 7 5 12 8 4 4 2 2 2
Rav 6 5 11 11 0 3 1 7 5
Dol 7 4 11 11 0 2 2 7 6
Tita 6 5 11 9 2 4 1 4 4
Bil 5 5 10 10 0 4 2 4 4
Jet 2 8 10 9 1 6 1 2 2
Rai 4 5 9 9 0 4 2 3 3


This is a very rough estimation, I'm sure there are errors, it was put together fairly quickly this evening. Denver isn't "dismal" at drafting.

DenBronx
03-01-2016, 03:12 AM
Elway pretty much drafts best player available.

BroncoJoe
03-01-2016, 08:31 AM
For some perspective, instead of the blanket "Elway sucks at drafting" line.

Home grown players who are "starters" - Includes no backups or special teams players:
From an amalgamation of Week 17 starters and the Starters and Rosters list from www.pro-football-reference.com
O-Offense
D-Defense
T-Total players home grown
Draft - From the draft
UDFA - Players each team signed as UDFA
Rd1 - Players selected in Round 1
Rd2 - Players selected in Round 2
Rd3-7 - Players selected in Rounds 3-7
Rd3-7 L4 - Players selected in the last four drafts from the 3rd through 7th round (2011-2015)


O D T Draft UDFA Rd1 Rd2 Rd3-7 Rd3-7 L4
Ben 11 8 19 17 2 5 5 7 4
Tex 9 8 17 15 2 7 2 6 5
Pat 8 8 16 15 1 4 3 8 5
Chi 8 7 15 13 2 6 2 5 5
Pit 5 6 15 11 4 7 2 2 0
Jag 7 6 13 12 1 4 4 4 4
Bro 6 6 12 11 1 3 1 7 5
Col 9 3 12 10 2 2 2 6 5
Cha 4 8 12 10 2 5 4 1 1
Cle 7 5 12 8 4 4 2 2 2
Rav 6 5 11 11 0 3 1 7 5
Dol 7 4 11 11 0 2 2 7 6
Tita 6 5 11 9 2 4 1 4 4
Bil 5 5 10 10 0 4 2 4 4
Jet 2 8 10 9 1 6 1 2 2
Rai 4 5 9 9 0 4 2 3 3


This is a very rough estimation, I'm sure there are errors, it was put together fairly quickly this evening. Denver isn't "dismal" at drafting.

Who is Ben?

Rick
03-01-2016, 08:37 AM
Who is Ben?

I think Bengals.

BroncoJoe
03-01-2016, 08:41 AM
I think Bengals.

Ah - thanks. I didn't see Bro (for Broncos). I thought he typed B instead of D.

Lancane
03-01-2016, 11:11 AM
Elway pretty much drafts best player available.

According to their own grading system as well. Elway's draft picks are usually met with some disdain by a good portion of the fans, even I am guilty of it. But he's gotten some steals in Ray, Williams and Roby, so he's far from inept, especially given that the draft is a crapshoot to begin with. And he's not afraid to take a risk on those they have grades high, plus BPA could play out to have three or four athletes that have the same grade to the organization and so anyone of them fits the bill.

Dapper Dan
03-01-2016, 11:29 AM
I'm trying to follow along but it's hard to do when I'm not reading any of the posts.

drewloc
03-01-2016, 11:36 AM
Snap Counts
Positions listed reflect those shown in the gamebook



Def.
ST






Num
Pct
Num
Pct



Shane Ray (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RayxSh00.htm)
341
31.11%
38
8.12%
Shane Ray 2015 game-by-game snap counts (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RayxSh00/fantasy/2015)




Great: Sound like a 1st round pick? A guy you trade UP for in the 1st? Expect much more this year? Because he'll only have two plus a club option left after that; is 2-3 years of solid play enough to get off a 1st rounder before either paying him $10-15M/yr? Is a guy making any less on his next contract worth a 1st round pick?

I'm not saying he sucks, I'm saying playing <1/3 of snaps at an above average level=/=1st round value we BADLY needed elsewhere. If we hadn't had Von AND Ware AND Barrett I'd have been overjoyed to get Ray—but we DID have all three, with nothing but sophomore PS guys, career journeymen, rookies and washed up vets trying to help Vasquez do the job of five men. Same as the last two seasons when Manning limped to the finish as best he could with NO protection NOR run support. Oz was starting by midseason because Manning was too hurt to play even halfway decent; by the playoffs, Manning was back and playing hurt because OZ was too hurt to play even halfway decent. But at least our 4th best OLB and 5th or 6th pass rusher had a great rookie year, despite spending most of it ON THE BENCH. :)

Just like I'm not saying Sly sucks: He's a great NT I'm VERY grateful to have—I just think THREE SEASONS is too long to wait for a 1st round pick to become our lines lynchpin rather than a roleplayer. Not because he sucks, but because he only emerged as a leader THIS year and his contract expires NEXT year. Call me crazy, but I want >1-2 good seasons out of a 1st round pick; if that's all we're looking for, there are plenty of guys like that to be had in the 3rd or 4th round.

I have to chime in on this, while I don't disagree we need oline help, using Ray to suggest they didn't get good value is crazy. You mention we have Miller/Ware/Barrett, and that's true, but Barrett hadn't played in an NFL game until this year. There isn't anyway that we could have known he was going to be that solid. So you were looking at Von, and Ware before the draft with not much else behind them. The fact that Barrett turned out as solid as he did is a good thing for us. Ray still had 4 sacks and 8 hurries despite only playing 30% of the snaps. That's good production for a part time player. What did you expect exactly? Him to come out and be better than Von?

Ravage!!!
03-01-2016, 11:38 AM
I have to chime in on this, while I don't disagree we need oline help, using Ray to suggest they didn't get good value is crazy. You mention we have Miller/Ware/Barrett, and that's true, but Barrett hadn't played in an NFL game until this year. There isn't anyway that we could have known he was going to be that solid. So you were looking at Von, and Ware before the draft with not much else behind them. The fact that Barrett turned out as solid as he did is a good thing for us. Ray still had 4 sacks and 8 hurries despite only playing 30% of the snaps. That's good production for a part time player. What did you expect exactly? Him to come out and be better than Von?

Joel is convinced that we didn't really win the Super Bowl..... not with the OL we had. No way.

MOtorboat
03-01-2016, 12:07 PM
Who is Ben?

Sorry. To make the code thing work, it's easiest to abbreviate the teams in some fashion, so I abbreviated the mascots.

dogfish
03-01-2016, 12:14 PM
Joel is convinced that we didn't really win the Super Bowl..... not with the OL we had. No way.

lol. . . denver winning the super bowl was a real blow to his agenda, but he's rebounded nicely with a fresh stream of bullshit and complaints. . .

NightTerror218
03-01-2016, 06:25 PM
Elway pretty much drafts best player available.

Here is an example. If jalen Ramsey falls to #31 Elway will draft him. He is the top S in the draft.

If Malik leaves DL and OL are biggest needs but top safety who has top 10 talent why would he pass on him.

Nobody thought Ray would drop so far so it could happen.