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Denver Native (Carol)
02-16-2016, 04:43 PM
It's going to be a bloody free agency for the Denver Broncos with four players in the top twenty. Five in the top 75 if you include Brock Osweiler at #72 on their list.

According to Pro Football Focus, the Denver Broncos are especially loaded with talent that could be leaving for greener pastures in a few weeks. PFF has a list of the top 75 free agents and the Broncos have four guys in the first eighteen listed. Not good.

First up is Von Miller.

rest - interesting - http://www.milehighreport.com/2016/2/16/11010516/denver-broncos-have-four-free-agents-in-the-top-twenty-according-to

Joel
02-16-2016, 05:49 PM
Well, as the post notes, Von's not going anywhere, but that may well make Jackson or Trevathan cap casualties.

If we ran a 4-3, losing a stud DE and stud ILB would be crippling, but in a 3-4, when we've still got another stud DE under contract and a stud ILB as an RFA, we ought to be fine. The core front seven (i.e. a pair of All Pros OLBs and a standout NT) is still intact, with plenty of support around it, especially if we keep Vance Walker (who filled in ably throughout Wolfes suspension, then subbed for Sly just as solidly the rest of the year.)

That just leaves Mathis and Oz in their top 75. Garcia took a larger and larger share of Mathis' snaps as the season progressed, and I sincerely doubt an injury-plagued 35-year-old coming off a bad year will be this years 18th most prized FA (we got him for just $4 mil last year.) Unless Oz demands the moon with the stars guaranteed he's not going anywhere either. Frankly, I only hope our picture's as rosy as PFF paints, but I don't trust PFF.

TXBRONC
02-16-2016, 06:12 PM
This is interesting because Elway has been criticized for the players he has drafted.

LTC Pain
02-16-2016, 07:34 PM
This is interesting because Elway been criticized for the players he has drafted.

Maybe player development is just as important as who you draft :salute:

TXBRONC
02-16-2016, 11:41 PM
Maybe player development is just as important as who you draft :salute:

Absolutely. Elway has been criticized for many of picks. Four out of the five guys mentioned that article were draft picks.

CoachChaz
02-17-2016, 11:09 AM
Absolutely. Elway has been criticized for many of picks. Four out of the five guys mentioned that article were draft picks.

And for every Trevathan or Jackson, there are a handful of Blakes, Painters, Barrows, Balls, etc. Elway has done well early and late...it's the middle rounds that tend to be a waste.

TXBRONC
02-17-2016, 11:45 AM
And for every Trevathan or Jackson, there are a handful of Blakes, Painters, Barrows, Balls, etc. Elway has done well early and late...it's the middle rounds that tend to be a waste.

I don't know of any team that has success in every round of the draft.

Julius Thomas was a mid round pick.

Ravage!!!
02-17-2016, 11:58 AM
Yeah.. show me a team that has every pick work out well. If that were the case, FA wouldn't exist...nor be needed.

CoachChaz
02-17-2016, 12:07 PM
Aaaaand I dont recall saying it should be expected that he has success with every pick. Personally, I'd like to see a few more 2nd or 3rd rounders that have more of an immediate impact, but...it is what it is.

TXBRONC
02-17-2016, 01:05 PM
Aaaaand I dont recall saying it should be expected that he has success with every pick. Personally, I'd like to see a few more 2nd or 3rd rounders that have more of an immediate impact, but...it is what it is.

I'm not trying pick a fight with you Chaz.

NightTerror218
02-17-2016, 02:36 PM
Aaaaand I dont recall saying it should be expected that he has success with every pick. Personally, I'd like to see a few more 2nd or 3rd rounders that have more of an immediate impact, but...it is what it is.

The hard part is that we pay a lot of FA guys, harder for draft picks to break lineup right away. Look at Ray.

TXBRONC
02-17-2016, 05:02 PM
The hard part is that we pay a lot of FA guys, harder for draft picks to break lineup right away. Look at Ray.

There are four starters on the defense that were free agents. The offense a lot more but some of that has to do with the circumstances at the time.

OrangeHoof
02-17-2016, 05:44 PM
I love what Trevathan has given us but I see no reason why we can't move Shaq Barrett inside and have just as outstanding an LB corps. If I have to cut, this is a place I'd begin with.

NightTerror218
02-17-2016, 05:57 PM
I love what Trevathan has given us but I see no reason why we can't move Shaq Barrett inside and have just as outstanding an LB corps. If I have to cut, this is a place I'd begin with.

You do realize just moving a player to a new position does not always work. Can barret cover a RB or TE? Is he a sure tackler in space? How are his instincts to read QB or read a play to make a play.

The Glue Factory
02-17-2016, 06:48 PM
You do realize just moving a player to a new position does not always work. Can barret cover a RB or TE? Is he a sure tackler in space? How are his instincts to read QB or read a play to make a play.

I've found the difference between theory and practice is greater in practice than in theory. On paper it looks easy. Real life? Not so much.

DenBronx
02-17-2016, 09:16 PM
I love what Trevathan has given us but I see no reason why we can't move Shaq Barrett inside and have just as outstanding an LB corps. If I have to cut, this is a place I'd begin with.

I was thinking Barret could bulk up a bit and play Maliks spot of Malik walks. DE seems to be an easier transition for Barret.

Lancane
02-17-2016, 09:29 PM
I love what Trevathan has given us but I see no reason why we can't move Shaq Barrett inside and have just as outstanding an LB corps. If I have to cut, this is a place I'd begin with.

They have Todd ready to step up inside, he and Marshall should be able to maintain the middle.

TXBRONC
02-17-2016, 09:46 PM
I love what Trevathan has given us but I see no reason why we can't move Shaq Barrett inside and have just as outstanding an LB corps. If I have to cut, this is a place I'd begin with.

Denver has two back inside linebacker that are more than capable of starting. There would be no need to move Barrett to the inside.

Joel
02-18-2016, 01:12 AM
I was thinking Barret could bulk up a bit and play Maliks spot of Malik walks. DE seems to be an easier transition for Barret.
At risk of making an argument I largely dislike: DEAR GOD, NO! Great pass rushers are FAR more valuable than run-stuffers in the modern pass-crazed NFL. And 3-4 DEs are primarily run-stuffers, not pass rushers; if they manage a sack every 3-4 games they've exceeded expectations. Hoping 20 lbs. more weight was enough to make a former 4-3 tweener like Anunike a decent 3-4 DE would be better than moving Wares heir apparent there.


They have Todd ready to step up inside, he and Marshall should be able to maintain the middle.
Still terrified of how light our backup ILBs are. People used to complain sure-tackling DJ Williams got dragged downfield at 242; what'll happen to a guy who's 230...?

Guys: It's a 3-4, not a 4-3. That is, its keys are the OLBs and NT, not the DEs and MLB—especially when we've already GOT a DE AND ILB who are BOTH elite. As others often remind me, the cap doesn't allow All Pros at all positions; that's certainly true with lower priority positions. Jackson and Trevathan aren't even our BEST players at those lower priority positions; if someone wants to pay each of them $10 mil/yr, that's their GMs problem.

Understand, I agree Jackson and Trevathan are both very big assets to our team: Just not $10 million/yr assets. Watt's about the only 3-4 DE (or ILB) worth that.

Simple Jaded
02-21-2016, 11:02 PM
I wouldn't move Barrett, he's a capable backup, but I would move Lerentee McCray.

Mathis was Denvers best OL last season, should keep him, let Garcia kick Paradis to the bench where he belongs.

Joel
02-22-2016, 10:28 AM
I wouldn't move Barrett, he's a capable backup, but I would move Lerentee McCray.

Mathis was Denvers best OL last season, should keep him, let Garcia kick Paradis to the bench where he belongs.
Unless you're moving his weight up about 40 lbs. at the same time, I wouldn't move McCray either. 3-4 DE=/=4-3 DE. In 4-3 terms, we need to be looking at an UT (like Vance Walker or Antonio Smith, who not coincidentally played DE while Wolfe was suspended.) "Tweeners" are only tweeners in 4-3s; as one of just three down linemen, they get (literally) run over in a 3-4. Think of it this way:

A 250 lb. pass rush specialist can be viable, even stand out, playing 3rd down ONLY in a 4-3: But if he can't stuff the run he can't play 1st or 2nd down.

That means he can't play 3-4 DE at all.

As for Mathis, I know he wasn't working out last offseason, but he's 34 and looked done. Paradis has room to gain weight/strength and get wise to the stunts and delayed blitzes he didn't see at an elite level on last years PS, and it's not like Garcia fared any better against them as a rookie. If we're to stay on top, we need to find long term solutions and get them under long contracts before every mothers son of them performs well enough to demand and GET $5-10 mil/yr.

TXBRONC
02-22-2016, 11:23 AM
Unless you're moving his weight up about 40 lbs. at the same time, I wouldn't move McCray either. 3-4 DE=/=4-3 DE. In 4-3 terms, we need to be looking at an UT (like Vance Walker or Antonio Smith, who not coincidentally played DE while Wolfe was suspended.) "Tweeners" are only tweeners in 4-3s; as one of just three down linemen, they get (literally) run over in a 3-4. Think of it this way:

A 250 lb. pass rush specialist can be viable, even stand out, playing 3rd down ONLY in a 4-3: But if he can't stuff the run he can't play 1st or 2nd down.

That means he can't play 3-4 DE at all.

As for Mathis, I know he wasn't working out last offseason, but he's 34 and looked done. Paradis has room to gain weight/strength and get wise to the stunts and delayed blitzes he didn't see at an elite level on last years PS, and it's not like Garcia fared any better against them as a rookie. If we're to stay on top, we need to find long term solutions and get them under long contracts before every mothers son of them performs well enough to demand and GET $5-10 mil/yr.

No Barrett would not have nearly 300 lbs. The Steelers' starting inside linebackers are actually smaller than Denver's. That said moving him would be as dumb as moving Von Miller to the inside.

Barrett started several games for the Broncos and he did quite well against the run. Being 250 lbs doesn't mean you can't play the run and therefore relegated to being a pass rush specialist. If that's the case Ware and Miller are just one trick ponies.

Joel
02-22-2016, 12:48 PM
No Barrett would not have nearly 300 lbs. The Steelers' starting inside linebackers are actually smaller than Denver's. That said moving him would be as dumb as moving Von Miller to the inside.

Barrett started several games for the Broncos and he did quite well against the run. Being 250 lbs doesn't mean you can't play the run and therefore relegated to being a pass rush specialist. If that's the case Ware and Miller are just one trick ponies.
Did you understand that the comment DenBronx made and I responded to was that
I was thinking Barret could bulk up a bit and play Maliks spot of Malik walks. DE seems to be an easier transition for Barret.

The size of Pitts 3-4 ILBs is irrelevant to our (or their) 3-4 DEs, and Anunike had to add 25 lbs. to his 250 last offseason just to be our LIGHTEST DE. Wolfe's 284 and Jackson 290; if Barrett gained 40 lbs. he'd be right at the latter—and probably ruined as a pass rusher. He might be able to play ILB, though it wouldn't be playing to his strengths: Moving him to 3-4 DE would outright WASTE them. It'd turn a great pass rusher into an awful lineman.

That's a big difference: I advocated moving Von to 4-3 MLB not just because we desperately needed one (though we did) but because I thought his coverage skills good enough he'd be a good one and STILL be able to rush the passer when needed. He vindicated that with an Int to set up a TD in the AFCCG as well as PREVENTING a TD by covering a WR down the sideline in the SB. At 249 lbs, Barrett would NOT play 3-4 DE that well.

I don't know why this is a big deal. In a 3-4, DE's not the critical part it is in a 4-3, we've already got an elite 3-4 DE in Wolfe, and both Walker and Smith were solid in that elite DEs place during his month-long suspension: We don't NEED Jackson. He'd surely be nice to have, but not for $10 mil/yr; teams don't pay that for a DE unless he's 1) a 4-3 RDE or 2) JJ Watt. We could probably re-sign Walker AND Smith for HALF what Jackson wants, and Walker can keep rotating with Sly at NT.

I'm grateful for Jacksons service, especially in helping us win our first championship in two decades, but he's not worth what he, his agent and the market claim. He's going to do for his next team what Super Mario did for Buffalo. As far as I'm concerned, him securing a comfortable retirement at the competitions expense would be a win for the Broncos and well-earned by him, so I wish him well except when playing us. :salute:

TXBRONC
02-22-2016, 01:13 PM
Did you understand that the comment DenBronx made and I responded to was that

The size of Pitts 3-4 ILBs is irrelevant to our (or their) 3-4 DEs, and Anunike had to add 25 lbs. to his 250 last offseason just to be our LIGHTEST DE. Wolfe's 284 and Jackson 290; if Barrett gained 40 lbs. he'd be right at the latter—and probably ruined as a pass rusher. He might be able to play ILB, though it wouldn't be playing to his strengths: Moving him to 3-4 DE would outright WASTE them. It'd turn a great pass rusher into an awful lineman.

That's a big difference: I advocated moving Von to 4-3 MLB not just because we desperately needed one (though we did) but because I thought his coverage skills good enough he'd be a good one and STILL be able to rush the passer when needed. He vindicated that with an Int to set up a TD in the AFCCG as well as PREVENTING a TD by covering a WR down the sideline in the SB. At 249 lbs, Barrett would NOT play 3-4 DE that well.

I don't know why this is a big deal. In a 3-4, DE's not the critical part it is in a 4-3, we've already got an elite 3-4 DE in Wolfe, and both Walker and Smith were solid in that elite DEs place during his month-long suspension: We don't NEED Jackson. He'd surely be nice to have, but not for $10 mil/yr; teams don't pay that for a DE unless he's 1) a 4-3 RDE or 2) JJ Watt. We could probably re-sign Walker AND Smith for HALF what Jackson wants, and Walker can keep rotating with Sly at NT.

I'm grateful for Jacksons service, especially in helping us win our first championship in two decades, but he's not worth what he, his agent and the market claim. He's going to do for his next team what Super Mario did for Buffalo. As far as I'm concerned, him securing a comfortable retirement at the competitions expense would be a win for the Broncos and well-earned by him, so I wish him well except when playing us. :salute:

My response came from your response to Jaded not DenBronx.

Joel
02-22-2016, 03:04 PM
My response came from your response to Jaded not DenBronx.
Okay, but since his "I wouldn't move Barrett" referred to DenBronxs suggestion he move to DE (and the horror I expressed at that) it's the same difference.