Okay, We've Had a Couple Days to Enjoy Our Championship: Now Let's Speak of Talib

[Joel]

His 2016 cap hit's just under $10 million, or $3 million dead if we cut him, but here's what $7 million got us this year (http://nesn.com/2016/02/aqib-talib-committed-facemask-on-purpose-first-personal-foul-was-b-s/):

The night didn’t start out too positively for Talib, who was charged with two personal fouls in the first 20 minutes of action.

“It was all good,” Talib assured. “It was B.S. flags. One was on our sidelines — the guy was talking on our sideline. One I just did on purpose, and I just had to show him. It’s probably going to be a fine, but hey, we’re world champs.”

Talib’s first personal foul came when he was called for taunting after pushing Panthers wideout Corey Brown out of bounds following a Broncos sack.

“We were just talking, and it was getting a little chippy, so the ref picked me to slow the game down,” Talib said. “We didn’t do anything. We were just talking noise to each other, me and (Brown), a regular conversation.”

The second was thrown when he yanked Brown out of bounds by the receiver’s facemask to prevent a touchdown. Talib downplayed the impact of the foul.

“My teammates knew what it was,” Talib said. “He was on the 3-yard line. (With) a personal foul, he was on the 1 1/2-yard line, so it is what it is.”

The Panthers scored their only touchdown on the ensuing play, when running back Jonathan Stewart leaped over the line for the score. “That was the most fun game I’ve played in by far,” Talib said. “I had about four or five catches on me, and I still think that was the most fun I’ve had in a game in my life.”

If anyone forgot, here are those plays:



1
5:10
3
8
CAR 38
Cam Newton (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00.htm) sacked by Darian Stewart (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StewDa00.htm) for -8 yds. Penalty on Aqib Talib (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaliAq99.htm): Taunting, 15 yds
10
0


We got off the field thanks to a DOUBLE safety blitz for a huge sack—until Talib GAVE AWAY the first because he couldn't shut his yap. Fortunately, Jackson, Ware and Roby made three straight GOOD plays to force a punt from midfield, but how many times has a team negating its quick stop turned into a scoring drive? Especially when its own offensive struggles wear down its D? That play let a punt pin us at our 13; three-and-out, then THIS:


2
11:52
1
10
DEN 15
Cam Newton (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00.htm) pass complete short left to Corey Brown (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowPh00.htm) for 13 yds (tackle Aqib Talib (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaliAq99.htm)). Penalty on Aqib Talib (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaliAq99.htm): Face Mask (15 yds), 1 yd



What the HELL?! Talib SCREWED UP once because Brown flat BEAT him on a deep crosser: There was NO play on the ball nor even a chance to knock it loose. But, catching up to Brown as he turned up field toward our end zone, Talib SCREWED UP AGAIN by DELIBERATELY trying to decapitate Brown in retaliation for the previous drives taunting penalty: Because he knew it would only cost him a yard (and a fine he's "fine" with.) His teammates "know."


THAT'S WHAT WORRIES ME! I don't want him turning his fine, tough and DECENT teammates into a bunch of brazenly unrepentant THUGS. 'Cause, hey, we're World Champs. I don't want the reputation that brings, because THAT brings tighter NFL scrutiny and enforcement, as Kubiak's continually reminded the team (especially after Talibs eye-poke cost us any CHANCE of coming back @Indy.) Jackson and Ward heard, heeded and produced; Talib... not so much....

Send that garbage back to Seattle, Oakland or NE* where it belongs, and spend the $7 million savings on someone who COVERS and PREVENTS TDs instead of ALLOWING them. That score kept Carolina in the game for 36:00 until Vons final strip-sack clinched the Championship. And it wasn't "tough," "mean" nor even "nasty:" It was DIRTY. I don't want to win a SB by Talib rendering someone quadriplegic because he wants to "send a message." He should've been ejected.

Think it's just me, or just whiny Camolina fans? Type "Aqib Talib" into your browser window and hit enter:


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In the news
Aqib Talib Admits He Tried To Rip Corey Brown's Head Off On Purpose (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjZ1baT2uvKAhXivYMKHaMEAaEQqQIIHTAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdeadspin.com%2Faqib-talib-admits-he-tried-to-rip-corey-browns-head-off-1758007923&usg=AFQjCNEZMh8T2MPWWTuOJ90N0eJfkTKEfQ&sig2=An_r_0yh03Jx2DazHcOa1g&bvm=bv.113943665,d.amc) Deadspin‎ - 8 hours ago

It was a sloppy Super Bowl, sure, but it wasn't a dirty one save for one play early in the ...
Talib says facemask was intentional; NFL to consider suspension? (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25478547/talib-admits-face-mask-was-intentional-nfl-to-consider-suspension) CBSSports.com‎ - 5 hours ago

Aqib Talib Reportedly Faces Potential Suspension for Super Bowl 50 Personal Foul (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2615261-aqib-talib-reportedly-faces-potential-suspension-for-super-bowl-50-personal-foul) Bleacher Report‎ - 5 hours ago

More news for aqib talib (https://www.google.com/search?q=aqib+talib&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=884&site=webhp&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjZ1baT2uvKAhXivYMKHaMEAaEQsQQIIg)



So he'll probably start next season SUSPENDED for a DELIBERATELY DIRTY play he ADMITTED to SUPER BOWL PRESS was INTENTIONAL. Gave up 4-5 catches, jumped off side on (at least) one STs play, pinned our offense deep to set up a TD he PERSONALLY allowed (the only life they EVER showed and what kept them in the game THROUGHOUT our total domination) and it was "the most fun I’ve had in a game in my life."

Give that mans $7 million salary to someone—ANYONE—else. Use it to re-sign Von, or extend Roby and Webster (who, with Harris, would remain the NFLs #1 starting CB trio, for more cheaply and less thuggishly.) Remove the cancer before it spreads until fatally untreatable. Before anyone defends Talib as "nasty" or whatever: Ware's plenty nasty, yet has few penalties—despite bans on even LOOKING at a QBs head—and most are for offside (i.e. not attempted decapitation.)

$500,000/gm (assuming no MORE suspensions) is a lot to pay a guy for blowing coverage and teaching our inexperienced CBs that cheap shotting opponents is the way to get Pro Bowls, SBs and big contracts. I strongly believe Champ teaching guys what he learned from Darrell Green is what's made Harris an elite starting CB and Bolden and Bruton solid STers even when the talent's not there. Let's THAT define our secondary, and let Talib depart it.

[BroncoWave]

Dude.

[Ravage!!!]

wtf, seriously? jeeeezus.

[Joel]

Dude.
Well, that's why I waited, but since he's facing another suspension now and costing $10 million of cap space in the looming FA period, I've waited long enough. He could've paralyzed Brown, admitted it was deliberate, and played a crappy game on top of all that: If he hadn't been (badly) beaten to start with, or negated a great sack to pin us deep on the previous drive, he never would've had the CHANCE to whiplash-toss a guy down by his facemask.

It's not like that was the first time Talib did something like that either; remember when he iced Indys win earlier this year? His historys why I wanted to keep DRC.

[DenBronx]

Ummm I'm not done celebrating

[Ravage!!!]

Black-hole, please.

[Buff]

I don't want a bunch of mentally stable people playing on our defense. Granted Talib crosses the line into outright stupid a little more than I'd like - but elite #1 DBs don't grow on trees. I'll take the baggage that goes along with the production.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Xvehu9GJhlc/maxresdefault.jpg

[weazel]

he's not off base... Talib looked like a complete clown out there in the first part of that game. I would have sat him for a while so he could settle down.

[Northman]

I have to admit, i was disappointed in Talib's facemask as it clearly looked like he was out to hurt the guy. He never even tried to let go, that could of been far more serious than it ended up being. I dont know what else Joel is writing about as i didnt make it past the topic but knew what he was getting at.

[NightTerror218]

Can someone black he joel?

[Joel]

Ummm I'm not done celebrating
Sorry; you and everyone who feels that way are (sincerely) welcomed and encouraged to come back in a few weeks, months or whatever and deal with Talib. Bet Elway wishes he had that luxury. It was so outrageous I would've posted this thread right after the game if it hadn't been the SB, so I held out as long as I could.

[NightTerror218]

If Talib did not make the face mask grab the WR might have made it into the end zone.

I took it as that face mask prevented a touchdown and cost us only a yard.

They did end up scoring but it was not a cake walk into endzone.

He also shut down many players this season. Him and Harris are season defense is so gokd. They give pass rush they extra seconds to get to QB.

[Ravage!!!]

Elway isn't reading your posts nor cares whe you want, joel. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Joel]

If Talib did not make the face mask grab the WR might have made it into the end zone.

I took it as that face mask prevented a touchdown and cost us only a yard.

They did end up scoring but it was not a cake walk into endzone.
It was totally a cakewalk, but it's a tackle at the 2 either way: Talib CHOSE to add the facemask, and we know that because he SAID SO.


He also shut down many players this season. Him and Harris are season defense is so gokd. They give pass rush they extra seconds to get to QB.
Harris is a stand up dude who doesn't pull that crap any more than his mentor Champ: And both are ELITE and TOUGH CBs, sure tacklers, impenetrable in coverage, fearless in run stopping. All while clean as a whistle. More guys like THAT, and less Talibs. Talib has more picks, but never went TWO YEARS without allowing a TD.

[SR]

What a joke of a thread.

Next Joel will be lobbying not to sign Von. Or to cut Sanders. Or trade for Mark Sanchez.

[BroncoJoe]

Joel, please move to another forum. Unless you've been banned - which I suspect.

If so, please just leave. You've created two completely stupid threads since Sunday night, and countless ridiculous posts either discounting the team, players or GM.

Just go.

[Bronco4ever]

Von Miller got suspended for drug use. We can just not re-sign him while we're at it if we're trying to disassemble one of the best defenses ever.

[I Eat Staples]

Talib's 2nd personal foul really didn't matter. There's no difference between 1st and goal at the 4 or at the 2.

And 15 yards and a first down for talking trash or removing your helmet is absolutely retarded and it's a complete travesty the NFL is allowed to enforce something so ridiculous. Potentially deciding the outcome of a game because a player wasn't nice enough? Garbage.

[DenBronx]

I personally didn't mind the facemask. It was 1st and goal from the 3 yrd line away. Talib was trying not to give up a TD and still punish the guy at the same time. Was it excessive? Probably. Was it the SB and a time to play balls out while also mentally getting into the heads of the #1 offense? Hell yeah it was. We beat them up....physically and mentally.

I am sorry but this is THE EXACT reason why Elway brought in Ware, Talib and Ward that offseason. He wanted us not to be pussies. We got beat up by Seattle last time. That is the blueprint if you want to win in this league.

Bill Romanowski approves this message.

[Joel]

Von Miller got suspended for drug use. We can just not re-sign him while we're at it if we're trying to disassemble one of the best defenses ever.
Right, because smoking pot's the same as trying to put someone in a wheelchair for life. And Von's been clean so long he's out of the substance abuse protocol; Talib's clearly "addicted" to cheap shots and "doesn't WANT to quit."

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Jeez Joel, 2 days?

Like Von said, Talib and Ward are part of the identity of this defense. You take the good with the bad. Talib is a top 5 corner who is physical and nasty. You're not going to find a replacement.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Greg Olsen thinks this thread is funny.

[Dapper Dan]

I'm torn about Talib. I think he's a punk. But damn, he's so good. He almost single handedly won a couple games. He made great plays in the playoffs. Probably wouldn't beat NE without him. But he's due a touch over 20 million of the next 2 years. And we're trying to keep guys like Malik Jackson long term. Also, Harris, Roby, Webster isn't a bad trio.

[tomjonesrocks]

I'm torn about Talib. I think he's a punk. But damn, he's so good. He almost single handedly won a couple games. He made great plays in the playoffs. Probably wouldn't beat NE without him. But he's due a touch over 20 million of the next 2 years. And we're trying to keep guys like Malik Jackson long term. Also, Harris, Roby, Webster isn't a bad trio.

I actually think he's the weakest starting corner on the team. Yes, he's good - but Roby and Harris are even better.

[Dapper Dan]

I actually think he's the weakest starting corner on the team. Yes, he's good - but Roby and Harris are even better.

I kinda fear the unknown. I don't know how they all play when he's missing.

[BroncoBuckeye73]

I agree that the face mask was egregious, cutting Talib is not the option. With him, Roby and Harris we have and will continue to have the best secondary in football, replace Talib with Webster, and I like Webster too, is a huge mistake right now.

[Joel]

Talib's 2nd personal foul really didn't matter. There's no difference between 1st and goal at the 4 or at the 2.

And 15 yards and a first down for talking trash or removing your helmet is absolutely retarded and it's a complete travesty the NFL is allowed to enforce something so ridiculous. Potentially deciding the outcome of a game because a player wasn't nice enough? Garbage.
I actually agree on the first one, but that IS the (dumb) rule and part of playing well enough to win is being aware of that.

I personally didn't mind the facemask. It was 1st and goal from the 3 yrd line away. Talib was trying not to give up a TD and still punish the guy at the same time. Was it excessive? Probably. Was it the SB and a time to play balls out while also mentally getting into the heads of the #1 offense? Hell yeah it was. We beat them up....physically and mentally.

I am sorry but this is THE EXACT reason why Elway brought in Ware, Talib and Ward that offseason. He wanted us not to be pussies. We got beat up by Seattle last time. That is the blueprint if you want to win in this league.
Talib is NOTHING like Ware; that comparison insults a HoF DE who plays tough as nails but CLEAN. Again, half his penalties are NON-CONTACT offside fouls, despite playing a position the NFL's paranoid about hurting QBs (deliberately or not.) And Ward seems (at least to me) to have cleaned things up after Kubiak followed the Indy game by reiterating that dirty plays draw unwanted ref scrutiny and strictness. Talib... remains Talib.


Bill Romanowski approves this message.
I bet he does: That's why he wound up testifying to Congress about selling BALCO 'roids to any athlete he could find, and tweets Sharpe to get over Romanowski DELIBERATELY dislocating Broncos joints during games. Guy ended a TEAMMATES career by punching him so hard in PRACTICE that he crushed the guys eye socket.

We sent Romanowski to the Raiders where he belonged; if Elway sent Talib there I'd help him pack. :)

[Joel]

I kinda fear the unknown. I don't know how they all play when he's missing.
Webster will step up and they'll remain the NFLs top starting CB trio: For $7 million less, which we NEED to re-sign guys like Von and Marshall (and we'll soon need to re-sign Roby and Webster.) Not to mention that Talib turns 30 in 4 days: How long does anyone think a physical 30-year-old player has left at a speed position?

Regardless, Talib's odd man out in a CB corps modeled on the tough CLEAN shutdown style of Champ Bailey. Let the odd and DIRTY hired gun BE out of it.

[Bronco4ever]

Right, because smoking pot's the same as trying to put someone in a wheelchair for life. And Von's been clean so long he's out of the substance abuse protocol; Talib's clearly "addicted" to cheap shots and "doesn't WANT to quit."

Yeah, because Talib tried to "put him in a wheelchair for life". My statement was ridiculous because yours is equally ridiculous. We aren't going to cut Talib just because he is an *******.

[Ravage!!!]

I thought the first personal foul was just an absolute LAME call by the refs. I know you can' take off your helmet, but he as ON the sideline. Perhaps he used one of the words you "aren't allowed to use" with the NFL's new stance on "rapper's talk" (lol).... but it was a pretty lame call for the Super Bowl. HORRIBLE timing, though. We could have held them to no points.

But, this entire defense has had many PF's throughout the year. They were mean, nasty, fast, and hard hitting. Nothing nice about them. Talib is a punk, but he's good at helping the Broncos do what we NEEDED this year....be a dominating defense. Dominating defenses, aren't filled with nice guys.

[Dapper Dan]

His birthday is Saturday. Can we wait until after then?

[I Eat Staples]

Kayvon Webster is a great special teamer, but a pretty terrible corner. I really don't want him getting meaningful minutes there, unless he's drastically improved while on the bench.

[BroncoWave]

I thought the first personal foul was just an absolute LAME call by the refs. I know you can' take off your helmet, but he as ON the sideline. Perhaps he used one of the words you "aren't allowed to use" with the NFL's new stance on "rapper's talk" (lol).... but it was a pretty lame call for the Super Bowl. HORRIBLE timing, though. We could have held them to no points.

But, this entire defense has had many PF's throughout the year. They were mean, nasty, fast, and hard hitting. Nothing nice about them. Talib is a punk, but he's good at helping the Broncos do what we NEEDED this year....be a dominating defense. Dominating defenses, aren't filled with nice guys.

FWIW, the drive with the taunting call on Talib was not the same drive where they scored. I'm rewatching the game right now and that happened a few drives before they scored.

[Joel]

His birthday is Saturday. Can we wait until after then?
Fair point, since I knew that but didn't think of it like that: My bad, and consider my comments on the matter ended till next week.

[Northman]

Talib's 2nd personal foul really didn't matter. There's no difference between 1st and goal at the 4 or at the 2.

And 15 yards and a first down for talking trash or removing your helmet is absolutely retarded and it's a complete travesty the NFL is allowed to enforce something so ridiculous. Potentially deciding the outcome of a game because a player wasn't nice enough? Garbage.

For me its not about the penalty itself, those things can happen. It was the egregiousness of it. There is playing physical and aggressive and then there is playing dirty to the point where you could seriously injure another player. The Broncos have played fantastic throughout most of the year aside from the dirty play which unfortunately now has happened twice with Talib. Do i want him off the team? No. But i also know had a Panther done that to one of our players you guys would be singing a whole different tune.

[Northman]

I'm torn about Talib. I think he's a punk. But damn, he's so good. He almost single handedly won a couple games. He made great plays in the playoffs. Probably wouldn't beat NE without him. But he's due a touch over 20 million of the next 2 years. And we're trying to keep guys like Malik Jackson long term. Also, Harris, Roby, Webster isn't a bad trio.

Ive thought about that as well, i think if we did let Talib walk that Harris and Roby would be fine as the cornerstones for the the CB units.

[TXBRONC]

I don't care Joel.

[dogfish]

It was so outrageous I would've posted this thread right after the game if it hadn't been the SB, so I held out as long as I could.

joel, i'm sorry, but this is you in a nutshell, man. . .

the team that you supposedly like/root for/whatever (maybe we should settle on "follow"?) just won the super bowl, and you're sitting at home absolutely burning to get on here and start a thread bitching about one of our players. . . life is too short, dude! why do you even want to be so miserable? if this is the most enjoyment you can derive from watching the broncos, why not find something else to do with your time? serious question, not trolling. . .

[I Eat Staples]

For me its not about the penalty itself, those things can happen. It was the egregiousness of it. There is playing physical and aggressive and then there is playing dirty to the point where you could seriously injure another player. The Broncos have played fantastic throughout most of the year aside from the dirty play which unfortunately now has happened twice with Talib. Do i want him off the team? No. But i also know had a Panther done that to one of our players you guys would be singing a whole different tune.

I agree with that. It was a dirty play, and something I don't like to see from our guys.

[dogfish]

Ive thought about that as well, i think if we did let Talib walk that Harris and Roby would be fine as the cornerstones for the the CB units.

and then one of them goes down with an ankle, and you've got taurean nixon playing 30-40% of your snaps in the AFCCG or something. . . nope-- i'll pass. . . i can see re-structuring talib, but it doesn't make any sense to me to give up our corner depth to keep somebody else on D. . . there's a lot of fat that can be pared off the roster without getting rid of one of the foundations of the D. . . besides, that swag is good for us. . . you saw what happened when seattle had it and we didn't. . . elway knew what he was getting w/ ward and talib. . .

[Northman]

and then one of them goes down with an ankle, and you've got taurean nixon playing 30-40% of your snaps in the AFCCG or something. . . nope-- i'll pass. . . i can see re-structuring talib, but it doesn't make any sense to me to give up our corner depth to keep somebody else on D. . . there's a lot of fat that can be pared off the roster without getting rid of one of the foundations of the D. . . besides, that swag is good for us. . . you saw what happened when seattle had it and we didn't. . . elway knew what he was getting w/ ward and talib. . .

Well, injuries are bound to happen anyway. If anyone really thinks we will be able to retain every defensive player this year they are sorely mistaken. Some guys will need to step up and hopefully can remain healthy going forward.

[TXBRONC]

and then one of them goes down with an ankle, and you've got taurean nixon playing 30-40% of your snaps in the AFCCG or something. . . nope-- i'll pass. . . i can see re-structuring talib, but it doesn't make any sense to me to give up our corner depth to keep somebody else on D. . . there's a lot of fat that can be pared off the roster without getting rid of one of the foundations of the D. . . besides, that swag is good for us. . . you saw what happened when seattle had it and we didn't. . . elway knew what he was getting w/ ward and talib. . .

Those flags played on part in the outcome.of the game.

[NightTerror218]

Talib's 2nd personal foul really didn't matter. There's no difference between 1st and goal at the 4 or at the 2.

And 15 yards and a first down for talking trash or removing your helmet is absolutely retarded and it's a complete travesty the NFL is allowed to enforce something so ridiculous. Potentially deciding the outcome of a game because a player wasn't nice enough? Garbage.

He was on his own sidelines when he removed helmet. That is allowed. The fact the Panther did not leave immediately makes me think it was not Talib fault.

[BroncoWave]

Well, injuries are bound to happen anyway. If anyone really thinks we will be able to retain every defensive player this year they are sorely mistaken. Some guys will need to step up and hopefully can remain healthy going forward.

I think only one of our starters from week 1 (Sambrailo) couldn't play in the Super Bowl due to injury. We had insanely good injury luck this season. That's as big of a key to a title as anything.

[Dapper Dan]

I think only one of our starters from week 1 (Sambrailo) couldn't play in the Super Bowl due to injury. We had insanely good injury luck this season. That's as big of a key to a title as anything.

We lost both OTs. Besides that, we were really lucky in the playoffs for injuries

[BroncoWave]

We lost both OTs. Besides that, we were really lucky in the playoffs for injuries

Yeah, I was referencing week 1 starters so I didn't count Clady with him being hurt before week 1 but even still, having 20 of 22 projected starters available for the Super Bowl is awesome. We won so many games by such razor thin margins we really wouldn't have been able to afford any other key players missing substantial time, so I am thanking my lucky stars that didn't happen. I would say that is also one of the major differences between this Super Bowl and the last. We were completely decimated by injuries on the defensive side of the ball in that one.

[NightTerror218]

Harris compliments Talib's style of play. They are the best CB tandem in league. Roby is good and on the field all the time. We use 3 CBS all the time. Cutting Talib makes no scense. Webster is not in the ball park of those 3. Not venting close. He is a ST ace and a good backup.

Don't try to make the back ups seem like they can step I to a key players position and defense will still be as good. The lock down corners are key to the pass rush being as effective.

[SR]

Right, because smoking pot's the same as trying to put someone in a wheelchair for life. And Von's been clean so long he's out of the substance abuse protocol; Talib's clearly "addicted" to cheap shots and "doesn't WANT to quit."

Please tell me which one of Denver's defensive players had the most personal fouls this year. Once you do that, please start another thread lobbying for that player to be cut. I'll give you a hint, it's not Talib.

[NightTerror218]

Please tell me which one of Denver's defensive players had the most personal fouls this year. Once you do that, please start another thread lobbying for that player to be cut. I'll give you a hint, it's not Talib.

Malik?

[Timmy!]

Drippin

[Dapper Dan]

Malik?

Von.

[Dapper Dan]

Von.

Nevermind. Personal fouls. I was thinking penalties in general. I posted it a few weeks ago.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Harris compliments Talib's style of play. They are the best CB tandem in league. Roby is good and on the field all the time. We use 3 CBS all the time. Cutting Talib makes no scense. Webster is not in the ball park of those 3. Not venting close. He is a ST ace and a good backup.

Don't try to make the back ups seem like they can step I to a key players position and defense will still be as good. The lock down corners are key to the pass rush being as effective.

Well said

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Von.

He really needs to stop dry humping.

[VonDoom]

I can kind of understand where you're coming from here, Joel, but I think Talib is too good to cut him over his behavior. I might have relayed this story, but when we signed Talib, I texted me Pats' fan friend to get his opinion. He said, "Great player, but he's a thug with a capital T." I think we've seen both of those points ring true.

Harris is probably better than Talib, but they do compliment each other, as NightTerror said. Roby is not better than Talib (yet?). And I'm sorry, Joel, but you have a hang up on Webster. He has not shown that he can be a top CB in this league, which is what Talib is right now. Can he get there? I have no idea, and he has been a tremendous asset on ST. But this secondary was the key to how we played defense this year and it's just not as good with Talib out of the picture.

As far as the saving money aspect, much like with Ware, I could have seen us cutting him if he hadn't been so good this year. We would save $7 million, but we would also have a $3 million dead money hit, which Elway usually tries to avoid like the plague. In 2017, his cap number rises to $12 million, and it would be a $10 million savings to cut him. THAT'S the time that this might become a reality. Until then, I'm not going to worry about it as I sit here still enjoying our Super Bowl win.

[MasterShake]

I think you can correct Talib's behavior, but you can't replace his talent. He has a pretty long leash in my book. Plus he cracks me up every time he speaks. I want him to do audio books for children.

[BroncoWave]

I think you can correct Talib's behavior, but you can't replace his talent. He has a pretty long leash in my book. Plus he cracks me up every time he speaks. I want him to do audio books for children.

I feel like at this point in his career, he is who he is. I don't think you will really see him clean up his behavior much if at all. But as long as he continues to play well, you will take the bad with the good.

[MasterShake]

I feel like at this point in his career, he is who he is. I don't think you will really see him clean up his behavior much if at all. But as long as he continues to play well, you will take the bad with the good.

I can't think of too many issues between the Indy game and the Super Bowl. He just needs reminders now and again.

[dogfish]

I think you can correct Talib's behavior, but you can't replace his talent. He has a pretty long leash in my book. Plus he cracks me up every time he speaks. I want him to do audio books for children.

have you seen these?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWZxXExlqrw

[silkamilkamonico]

Talib is salty tough. Plays with an attitude. His teammates love him for it. And most importantly hemakes our defense significantly better. Not even sure why this is a thread.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Joel, doesn't this OCD behavior get a little tiring?

[MOtorboat]

Well. I'm convinced. He needs a pay raise.

[Valar Morghulis]

Well. I'm convinced. He needs a pay raise.

I went into this season regarding talib as our most overrated and over paid player.
I was wrong, dude is a baller.

[MOtorboat]

I went into this season regarding talib as our most overrated and over paid player.
I was wrong, dude is a baller.

He's a tone setter. The attitude is for a reason. Yeah. Dumb penalties. All penalties. But he and Ward are the bad cop and Ware is the good cop, the motivator. I'll give Ziggy credit. This is the best damn defense I've ever seen in Denver. Attitude is a lot of it.

Attitude at Altitude.

[Timmy!]

Can't have all boy scouts. No elite defense, in the history of ever, hasn't had some nasty. 1 yd personel fouls I can handle.

[Jsteve01]

I went into this season regarding talib as our most overrated and over paid player.
I was wrong, dude is a baller.

I said it too. I also was begging for Wade this offseason and declared him our best signing.

[Rick]

While the timing may not quite be there yet, it does raise some points.

I like a defense that plays with some nasty to set a tone, but does that nasty have to extend drives or cost us games?

[Northman]

While the timing may not quite be there yet, it does raise some points.

I like a defense that plays with some nasty to set a tone, but does that nasty have to extend drives or cost us games?


i dont think Talib has done anything to really cost us any games (thankfully) but i also dont think Bengal fans are super cool with Burfict melting down against the Steelers like he did which actually ended up costing them that game. When you win fans can be forgiving but if you lose than its a entirely different story.

[Rick]

I think it could be argued that he, at least partly, cost us the Colts game.

He doesn't "accidently" run over and poke that dude in the eye the drive is over and we have the ball back to "maybe" go down and tie it up.

[Northman]

I think it could be argued that he, at least partly, cost us the Colts game.

He doesn't "accidently" run over and poke that dude in the eye the drive is over and we have the ball back to "maybe" go down and tie it up.

Yea, but i think Manning did have time to actually pull a game winning moment but threw a pick after that. I could be wrong but i think it happened like that. Either way, your right that Talib had a very poor moment there.

[TXBRONC]

Harris compliments Talib's style of play. They are the best CB tandem in league. Roby is good and on the field all the time. We use 3 CBS all the time. Cutting Talib makes no scense. Webster is not in the ball park of those 3. Not venting close. He is a ST ace and a good backup.

Don't try to make the back ups seem like they can step I to a key players position and defense will still be as good. The lock down corners are key to the pass rush being as effective.

Webster is good enough to start in slot if Talib was was let go. He not at the same level as Roby but he would do well if they Roby was moved to the outside. That said, it's ridiculous to whine about Talib (not you) because of a couple of penalties in Super Bowl win.

[Timmy!]

Yea, but i think Manning did have time to actually pull a game winning moment but threw a pick after that. I could be wrong but i think it happened like that. Either way, your right that Talib had a very poor moment there.

We never got the ball back after captain insano's poke. Defense actually stopped them, then committed another personnel foul (Jackson I think?) allowing Indy to take a knee.

[Northman]

We never got the ball back after captain insano's poke. Defense actually stopped them, then committed another personnel foul (Jackson I think?) allowing Indy to take a knee.

Capt Insano. Bwhahahahaa, that is good.

[TXBRONC]

Joel, doesn't this OCD behavior get a little tiring?

For him? Obviously not.

For the rest of the board? Absolutely.

[nevcraw]

you gotta have 3 quality starting cb's on the team to stop today's offenses. Talib is easy top 10 at the position. He stays.

[NightTerror218]

Webster is good enough to start in slot if Talib was was let go. He not at the same level as Roby but he would do well if they Roby was moved to the outside. That said, it's ridiculous to whine about Talib (not you) because of a couple of penalties in Super Bowl win.

As of now Harris tends to go into the slot and Roby takes the outside. Both play slot.

I have not seen Webster really step up on defense to warrant being starting nickle. Now a days you need 3 really good corners and we are evident of that.

[weazel]

I agree that the first penalty was a ******* joke. Two guys jawing at eachother on the sideline and 1 guy comes out of it with a 15 yard penalty? How did that even make sense?

[Ravage!!!]

joel, i'm sorry, but this is you in a nutshell, man. . .

the team that you supposedly like/root for/whatever (maybe we should settle on "follow"?) just won the super bowl, and you're sitting at home absolutely burning to get on here and start a thread bitching about one of our players. . . life is too short, dude! why do you even want to be so miserable? if this is the most enjoyment you can derive from watching the broncos, why not find something else to do with your time? serious question, not trolling. . .

perfectly said.

[BroncoJoe]

I love the nasty. We NEED players like Talib.

Just not in the same way Dave does.

[Ravage!!!]

I will say, though, that I absolutely HATED that second PF. Not only hated it, but I was embarrassed as a Bronco fan to see THAT kind of behavior on the field. THAT kind of face-mask penalty, is NEVER ok. Its NEVER justified, and can NOT be defended. I thought he might be ejected from the game it was SO bad, and I'm really REALLY glad that young player was able to continue playing the rest of the game, as it could have ended in an injury which would have been disgusting in so many ways.

I LIKE his "hood" attitude when it brings toughness, but HATE HATE HATE it when that same attitude brings eye-poking and THAT kind of face mask.

So I have to take the good with the bad.

[arapaho2]

Webster will step up and they'll remain the NFLs top starting CB trio: For $7 million less, which we NEED to re-sign guys like Von and Marshall (and we'll soon need to re-sign Roby and Webster.) Not to mention that Talib turns 30 in 4 days: How long does anyone think a physical 30-year-old player has left at a speed position?

Regardless, Talib's odd man out in a CB corps modeled on the tough CLEAN shutdown style of Champ Bailey. Let the odd and DIRTY hired gun BE out of it.


come on...if Webster could fill talibs shoes he would be out there....you wanna go back to pussified defensive teams that win in regular season, and surrender faster than france in the post season,

or a bunch of trash talking, smash mouth, rough ass sumbitches that's not gonna let up, and Monday morning you know you played a real defense

talib might be a dick at times, but that's his game

[Buff]

I agree that the first penalty was a ******* joke. Two guys jawing at eachother on the sideline and 1 guy comes out of it with a 15 yard penalty? How did that even make sense?

In the Super Bowl no less! I couldn't believe they would make such a ticky-tack chicken shit call on that stage. I thought the same thing of the 15 yard unsportsmanlike that Carolina got at the end of the game for slapping the ball out of Emmanuel Sanders' hand after the play. Granted - it was a bush league move, but the referees need to show more restraint there and realize it's not about them.

[chazoe60]

I have watched and been absolutely annoyed at soft Denver teams for years while watching teams like Pittsburgh and Seattle punch us in the mouth with absolutely no remorse, so I ******* love this team for its knock you the **** out attitude.

I wish there was a way to do that and not have the dirty team image. In a perfect world there's a middle ground, but this is not a perfect world. Think of all the great defenses and they've all been accused of being dirty. We hated the Ravens when they would constantly kick us in the throat. Same with Seattle 2 years ago. I even remember similar complaints about the 85' Bears when I was a kid. It's just an unfortunate side effect of the attitude it takes to play amazing defense in the NFL.

I for one hope the Broncos can keep this reputation forever, its a helluva lot better than being thought of as "finesse"

[BroncoWave]

I will say, though, that I absolutely HATED that second PF. Not only hated it, but I was embarrassed as a Bronco fan to see THAT kind of behavior on the field. THAT kind of face-mask penalty, is NEVER ok. Its NEVER justified, and can NOT be defended. I thought he might be ejected from the game it was SO bad, and I'm really REALLY glad that young player was able to continue playing the rest of the game, as it could have ended in an injury which would have been disgusting in so many ways.

I LIKE his "hood" attitude when it brings toughness, but HATE HATE HATE it when that same attitude brings eye-poking and THAT kind of face mask.

So I have to take the good with the bad.

I don't know how, but they should probably make it more punitive to commit a personal foul that close to the end zone since the half the distance to the goal penalty means nothing. Ejection in certain instances could work.

[NightTrainLayne]

I have watched and been absolutely annoyed at soft Denver teams for years while watching teams like Pittsburgh and Seattle punch us in the mouth with absolutely no remorse, so I ******* love this team for its knock you the **** out attitude.

I wish there was a way to do that and not have the dirty team image. In a perfect world there's a middle ground, but this is not a perfect world. Think of all the great defenses and they've all been accused of being dirty. We hated the Ravens when they would constantly kick us in the throat. Same with Seattle 2 years ago. I even remember similar complaints about the 85' Bears when I was a kid. It's just an unfortunate side effect of the attitude it takes to play amazing defense in the NFL.

I for one hope the Broncos can keep this reputation forever, its a helluva lot better than being thought of as "finesse"

I think of our first two Super Bowl wins and Romanowski's presence on those teams.

He made some egregious, unsportsmanlike mistakes. Spitting in the face of someone (wasn't it Terrell Owens? can't remember for sure), all kinds of dirty plays. Just the other day before the SuperBowl I saw him on a show saying that if he played against Cam, he'd seriously try to choke him in the bottom of a pile if he caught Cam scrambling/running on a play in order to discourage him from running more.

That's outrageous!

However, he was a necessary component of that defense. I don't know if I can say that ever defense needs a guy like that to be good, but I'll be damned if I don't notice that every bad-ass defense in NFL history has at least one guy like that.

I can't stand the behavior. It's wrong. Anyone from another team who complains about it is correct. But I'll live with it.

[weazel]

I will say, though, that I absolutely HATED that second PF. Not only hated it, but I was embarrassed as a Bronco fan to see THAT kind of behavior on the field. THAT kind of face-mask penalty, is NEVER ok. Its NEVER justified, and can NOT be defended. I thought he might be ejected from the game it was SO bad, and I'm really REALLY glad that young player was able to continue playing the rest of the game, as it could have ended in an injury which would have been disgusting in so many ways.

I LIKE his "hood" attitude when it brings toughness, but HATE HATE HATE it when that same attitude brings eye-poking and THAT kind of face mask.

So I have to take the good with the bad.

I didn't think he would be ejected but my buddy did. I will say that I wouldn't have been totally surprised if they did though

[TXBRONC]

As of now Harris tends to go into the slot and Roby takes the outside. Both play slot.

I have not seen Webster really step up on defense to warrant being starting nickle. Now a days you need 3 really good corners and we are evident of that.

Yes I know that Harris and Roby switch around but what I'm saying is if Talib wasn't here Denver would still be in good shape because I think Webster could step in and play well. As a rookie I thought he played well. He wasn't as polished but I think overall he held his own.

[NightTerror218]

Yes I know that Harris and Roby switch around but what I'm saying is if Talib wasn't here Denver would still be in good shape because I think Webster could step in and play well. As a rookie I thought he played well. He wasn't as polished but I think overall he held his own.

When Webster was thrown in as a rookie he was picked on so much and gave up a lot of passes. I thought great another big bust pick. He is better now. But we have not seen him in a lot of extensive coverage since then.

[Ravage!!!]

I haven't been impressed with Webster as a DB at all....not yet. I certainly don't feel that we would be "ok" without Talib purely because we have Webster. That is a losing losing trade down.

[TXBRONC]

When Webster was thrown in as a rookie he was picked on so much and gave up a lot of passes. I thought great another big bust pick. He is better now. But we have not seen him in a lot of extensive coverage since then.

I guess we just see it a little differently. I remember that he struggled at times but also remember him playing well at times during his rookie season.

[Ravage!!!]

http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/18838/broncos-defense-in-the-conversation-for-best-ever


The Broncos surrendered 16, 18 and 10 points in playoff wins over the No. 4 (Steelers), No. 3 (Patriots) and No. 1 (Panthers) scoring offenses in the league during the regular season.

The Broncos had 14 sacks in those three games, and Roethlisberger, Brady and Newton combined for one touchdown pass (Brady’s in the AFC Championship Game).

THIS is why you keep a Talib on the roster.

[Northman]

I didn't think he would be ejected but my buddy did. I will say that I wouldn't have been totally surprised if they did though

I thought he was going to be honest. Glad he wasnt though.

[BroncoJoe]

I will say, though, that I absolutely HATED that second PF. Not only hated it, but I was embarrassed as a Bronco fan to see THAT kind of behavior on the field. THAT kind of face-mask penalty, is NEVER ok. Its NEVER justified, and can NOT be defended. I thought he might be ejected from the game it was SO bad, and I'm really REALLY glad that young player was able to continue playing the rest of the game, as it could have ended in an injury which would have been disgusting in so many ways.

I LIKE his "hood" attitude when it brings toughness, but HATE HATE HATE it when that same attitude brings eye-poking and THAT kind of face mask.

So I have to take the good with the bad.

Well, I didn't "like" it, but for anyone that's played the game, it is incredibly hard to release a grab once you have it. It also saved a TD (for the time being).

I'll cut him some slack on it. I don't believe it was intentional, but Talib has proved me wrong before.

Like I said previously, I don't mind the nasty attitude one bit.

[Shazam!]

Wow.

[Jsteve01]

I didn't like the facemask nor his response but lest we forget, we wouldn't even be in the Super Bowl without Talib. He essentially had two game winning pick sixes and did it last year as well. He comes up huge in big situations. You're not just swapping Roby for Talib. You're dropping Talib and getting to webster. Huge dropoff

[BroncoJoe]

I didn't like the facemask nor his response but lest we forget, we wouldn't even be in the Super Bowl without Talib. He essentially had two game winning pick sixes and did it last year as well. He comes up huge in big situations. You're not just swapping Roby for Talib. You're dropping Talib and getting to webster. Huge dropoff

Eh. I wanted him to rip the dudes head off, then throw the helmet and head into the crowd.

[Slick]

I think of our first two Super Bowl wins and Romanowski's presence on those teams.

He made some egregious, unsportsmanlike mistakes. Spitting in the face of someone (wasn't it Terrell Owens? can't remember for sure), all kinds of dirty plays. Just the other day before the SuperBowl I saw him on a show saying that if he played against Cam, he'd seriously try to choke him in the bottom of a pile if he caught Cam scrambling/running on a play in order to discourage him from running more.

That's outrageous!

However, he was a necessary component of that defense. I don't know if I can say that ever defense needs a guy like that to be good, but I'll be damned if I don't notice that every bad-ass defense in NFL history has at least one guy like that.

I can't stand the behavior. It's wrong. Anyone from another team who complains about it is correct. But I'll live with it.

It was JJ Stokes, not TO.

[Jsteve01]

Eh. I wanted him to rip the dudes head off, then throw the helmet and head into the crowd.

perfect

[GEM]

Eh. I wanted him to rip the dudes head off, then throw the helmet and head into the crowd.

With the dripping blood word Fatality flashing on the screen. :laugh:

8579

[Poet]

You have to ask yourself if Denver would have gotten to the Sb without Talib. How many cornerbacks are as good as Talib? Now how many of them would have a similar contract as Talib were they available in that same FA class. Now, take whatever player you want to go with and ask yourself if their fiscal value, presuming that a re-work isn't necessarily off the table, but isn't looming either, is worth it to keep the team intact. If the answer is yes from a fiscal value, does it really swing to a 'no we should let him go' answer because of those hits, especially when they're part of the identity that makes Talib so good not just as a player, but for the psyche of the team?

On the flip side, if the answer is no, he's not worth it monetarily, does the same aforementioned personality really swing it that much *more* to a strong no, or an even stronger one?

[Poet]

I can't stand the behavior. It's wrong. Anyone from another team who complains about it is correct. But I'll live with it.

Necessary evil is probably the right phrasing for it.

[Valar Morghulis]

Seems crazy to think I preferred DRC to Talib at the time of his signing

[slim]

What the...

[BroncoJoe]

What the...

"Ooh, we're afraid to go hit someone hard Bluto, we might get in trouble."

[slim]

"Ooh, we're afraid to go hit someone hard Bluto, we might get in trouble."

It's not just that, it's the entire thread.

I don't know what to do with these guys anymore.

[BroncoJoe]

It's not just that, it's the entire thread.

I don't know what to do with these guys anymore.

All I hope is that you got the reference.

[slim]

All I hope is that you got the reference.

Oh yeah....Bluto kind of gives it away.

[BroncoJoe]

Eh. I wanted him to rip the dudes head off, then throw the helmet and head into the crowd.

Ware: Dead! Talib's right. Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these ********. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!
Talib: I'm just the guy to do it.
Von: [stands up] Let's do it.
Talib: [shouting] "Let's do it"!

[Slick]

The comments after the NE game where Talib's talking about Kansas City caused him to be my favorite player. Love that guy.

[Slick]

9ZksLvB8370

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

"That attitude cost the Broncos 16 yards in the Superbowl, and also helped them get there".

Dennis Mills

[SR]

Seems crazy to think I preferred DRC to Talib at the time of his signing

At that point in time we knew what Denver had in DRC and were unsure of what Talib would be. I was furious DRC walked. Even now knowing what Talib is, if I went back in time I would still wish DRC would've stayed. It's always easy to look at things with hindsight.

[NightTerror218]

At that point in time we knew what Denver had in DRC and were unsure of what Talib would be. I was furious DRC walked. Even now knowing what Talib is, if I went back in time I would still wish DRC would've stayed. It's always easy to look at things with hindsight.

DRC over valued himself and was upgraded for same contract.

This just makes me confident in Elway this offseason.

[SR]

DRC over valued himself and was upgraded for same contract. This just makes me confident in Elway this offseason.

I agree with you NOW, but then I wasn't so sure Talib was as good as DRC. Don't forget how well DRC played in Denver when he was there.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I agree with you NOW, but then I wasn't so sure Talib was as good as DRC. Don't forget how well DRC played in Denver when he was there.
He played well, aside from the physical tackling part. The dude hated contact.

[VonDoom]

He played well, aside from the physical tackling part. The dude hated contact.

Yes, and we've seen what a move to a more physical style of defense has done for us in the last couple of years. I liked DRC too, but Talib has been better here.

[Rick]

I have no issue with Talib being nasty and trying to get in the head of the other teams receiver.

I just want him to look at the moment and make a choice.

If in situations similar to the Colts game and has a choice like:

ok, it is now 4th down, there is a scrirmish. Do I A: Let them punt and my teams offense gets the ball on a potential game tying drive, or B: Run up to a player on the other team and stick my freaking finger in his eye and let them have a first down and let them run out the clock to end the game.

I want him to make the choice that gives his team a chance to win.

If he can be nasty AND still make the decision when to be smart, let's call it smart nasty, how about snasty... then great.

[SR]

Yes, and we've seen what a move to a more physical style of defense has done for us in the last couple of years. I liked DRC too, but Talib has been better here.

Looking back, yes Talib is much better than DRC.

[weazel]

Well, I didn't "like" it, but for anyone that's played the game, it is incredibly hard to release a grab once you have it. It also saved a TD (for the time being).

I'll cut him some slack on it. I don't believe it was intentional, but Talib has proved me wrong before.

Like I said previously, I don't mind the nasty attitude one bit.

He said he did it on purpose.

[TXBRONC]

It's not just that, it's the entire thread.

I don't know what to do with these guys anymore.

I know Slim. I know. I'm just glad you're here to bring sanity to all this madness.

[Northman]

I know Slim. I know. I'm just glad you're here to bring sanity to all this madness.

Who's this Slim guy? Didnt he just show up recently for the SB?




*snicker*

[swaiy]

Wow... this thread.

Cocaine is one hell of a drug.

[NightTerror218]

I agree with you NOW, but then I wasn't so sure Talib was as good as DRC. Don't forget how well DRC played in Denver when he was there.

Back then I liked. I hated playing against talib, I watched him shut down WR and TEs.

I also heard about him all the time since my coworker was a Pats fan. So I also knew he was one of league interception leaders the season before we got him.

[TXBRONC]

Who's this Slim guy? Didnt he just show up recently for the SB?




*snicker*

Hey now Slim is one of the coolest dudes on the freaking planet.

[chazoe60]

Hey now Slim is one of coolest dudes on the freaking planet.

Maybe that's true if the planet you're referencing is Uranus.

[chazoe60]

My son and I rewatched the game yesterday and we paused the game and did a frame by frame slow-mo on Talib's supposed off sides and he clearly was not in the nuetral zone when the ball started moving. Good no call by the refs.

[dogfish]

Hey now Slim is one of coolest dudes on the freaking planet.

TX, i've actually met slim. . . based on this post, i'm guessing you haven't. . . you may have exaggerated just a tiny bit. . .



My son and I rewatched the game yesterday and we paused the game and did a frame by frame slow-mo on Talib's supposed off sides and he clearly was not in the nuetral zone when the ball started moving. Good no call by the refs.

did you hold hands?

[chazoe60]

TX, i've actually met slim. . . based on this post, i'm guessing you haven't. . . you may have exaggerated just a tiny bit. . .




did you hold hands?

No.

[TXBRONC]

Maybe that's true if the planet you're referencing is Uranus.

Stop talking about my anus. :tsk:

[chazoe60]

Stop talking about my anus. :tsk:

But its your best feature.

[TXBRONC]

But its your best feature.

You've been checking out my anus? That's creepy. :shocked:

[Simple Jaded]

Broncos defense seems to feed off players like Talib and Ward and Malik, I'd be livid if they cut Talib. I love the way he plays. I wanted DRC over Talib, I was completely wrong, just like you are now.

I get a kick out of pretentious fans who believe he's not worthy of playing for their favorite team.

[TXBRONC]

Broncos defense seems to feed off players like Talib and Ward and Malik, I'd be livid if they cut Talib. I love the way he plays. I wanted DRC over Talib, I was completely wrong, just like you are now.

I get a kick out of pretentious fans who believe he's not worthy of playing for their favorite team.

Talib is one of the best corners in the game. Getting rid of him for two personal fouls that had no bearing on the outcome of the game would be foolish.

[Simple Jaded]

Talib is one of the best corners in the game. Getting rid of him for two personal fouls that had no bearing on the outcome of the game would be foolish.

Foolish is a very PC way of wording it.

[TXBRONC]

Foolish is a very PC way of wording it.

I'm just not as colorful as you my friend. :D

[Simple Jaded]

I'm just not as colorful as you my friend. :D

You should try it, let your demons run, TX.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

As long as no long term injuries were incurred, I'd be ok with Talib punching a baby .

[Hawgdriver]

Wade Phillips let dudes play instinctual. Who knew some of those instincts were so violent?