Von Miller Wants to Be Highest Paid Defensive Player

[Cugel]

According to Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2611822-insider-buzz-von-miller-wants-to-be-highest-paid-defensive-player-in-nfl) "numerous NFL sources" "Broncos LB Von Miller is looking for a HUGE payday." NFL sources report Miller would want more than the $114 M, 6 year, $60 M guaranteed contract signed by Ndamukong Suh last year with the Miami Dolphins. Average contract price

Those numerous NFL sources state that teams are hoping Von Miller becomes an UFA but expect the Broncos to franchise tag him.

Here's the details of Suh's horrible contract:


Suh signed a gargantuan six-year, $114 million contract last offseason which carries a 2016 cap hit of $28.6 million (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5593/ndamukong-suh). The Dolphins have the option to convert his $23.485 million salary into a bonus, spreading the cap hit over the rest of the contract and creating roughly $18 million in immediate space. That decision would have ramifications down the road, but the cap-strapped Dolphins may not have a choice. Miami is one of three teams currently projected to be over the cap.

That contract is killing the Dolphins, because after the first cap friendly year (his cap hit was $6 M in 2015) it jumps to $23 M next season. After receiving the big pay-day Suh took a long winter's nap:


Dolphins football czar Mike Tannenbaum admits Ndamukong Suh "hasn’t played as well as we hoped."
Suh appeared bored and/or confused in ex-DC Kevin Coyle's system, and hasn't been the one-man wrecking crew he often was in Detroit. That being said, he's still the No. 7 defensive tackle in Pro Football Focus' ratings. Interim DC Lou Anarumo's first order of business is sparking Suh's play.

He finished the season with 6 sacks and 5 passes defended.

Now it's easy to say "Franchise Von" but that only postpones the problem for a season. They have to eventually reach a deal or he'll become a FA next season. And he won't want to play multiple years under the franchise contract. He could even sit out the season in order to force them to negotiate a deal.

So, normally they would ink a new deal in the off-season. Making your star player play under the franchise amount can lead to dissension and conflict and locker room bitterness. That's not good for a team wanting to win the SB.


Under the exclusive franchise tag, a player will receive a one-year offer from his team that is the greater of 120 percent of his prior year's salary or the average of the top five salaries at his position once the restricted free agent signing period of the current year has ended (April 22 for 2016). A player cannot negotiate with other teams with the exclusive franchise tag.

For Miller that would mean around a $14.1 M contract, considerably less than he'd get as an UFA.


The three-time All-Pro probably views the six-year, $101 million contract, which included $52.5 million in guarantees, the Kansas City Chiefs gave Justin Houston over the summer as his salary floor (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25378860/agents-take-von-miller-headlines-2016-franchise-tag-candidates). Another important financial benchmark may be the $60 million in guarantees, a record for a defensive player, that Marcell Dareus received from the Buffalo Bills in a contract extension as the regular season approached. The average yearly salary of Houston's deal is 27.6 percent greater than his franchise tag. If the Broncos do the same with Miller, his multi-year deal will be in the neighborhood of $18 million per year.

This was before Miller's performance in the AFC Championship Game. IF he performs similarly in the SB, he will almost certainly want to become the highest paid defensive player in the NFL. So, $20M+ a year is not out of the question.

I previously thought that his contract would cost somewhere around $16 M a year, but now it's going to be a lot more.

[Davii]

Even before this past Sunday I thought Von would be the highest paid defensive player in the league next year. Based on his performance he should be.

[Valar Morghulis]

Pay the man!

[Cugel]

It's difficult to fit a $20 M a year contract under the cap, as the Dolphins are finding out.

And those huge contracts tend to make players complacent as the Redskins found out when they signed Albert Haynesworth to a $100 M contract in 2009 only to have him underperform for 2 seasons, and as the Dolphins found with Suh this season. Based on his 2015 performance, there's no way they would offer him anything like his contract now. But, they're stuck with it.

[Poet]

Everyone should have seen this coming.

[Davii]

It's difficult to fit a $20 M a year contract under the cap, as the Dolphins are finding out.

And those huge contracts tend to make players complacent as the Redskins found out when they signed Albert Haynesworth to a $100 M contract in 2009 only to have him underperform for 2 seasons, and as the Dolphins found with Suh this season. Based on his 2015 performance, there's no way they would offer him anything like his contract now. But, they're stuck with it.

So you think we should let him walk?

I mean, there are two alternatives, the tag or let him walk. I say pay the man, if he underperforms so be it. All indications are he will not. He sure busted his ass to come back from his suspension and has since been released from the drug program, he busted his ass coming back from injury, etc. I can only think of one other Defensive player that can change a game the way Von can, JJ Watt. We won't have Manning under contract anymore, the salary cap is going up, etc. We can afford to pay Von what it takes to keep him here. If that's making him the highest paid D player, so be it.

[tomjonesrocks]

Suh is a head case and most felt that was a mistake for the Dolphins at the outset.

Von is not a comparable situation. No one is saying the Texans made a mistake paying JJ Watt. I see that as a more apt comparison.

[artie_dale]

Ugh! Let's not worry about this until AFTER the Super Bowl.

[BroncoNut]

I think we should try to bring in Clay Matthews personally

[DenBronx]

He will get the franchise tag and we will give Brock a long term deal. If Von is unreasonable after that then we can go with Shaq, Ray and Ware. Miller was Elways first ever draft pick so I suspect he will want to give him a long term deal next year but I don't see that happening this year.

[Poet]

Suh was also pretty overrated. Look at his production and compare it Geno Atkins (I know he's my boy, but still) and then compare the price tag.

Von might not be the best pure pass rusher in the NFL. He ha shown the ability to rush the passer as not just a 3-4 OLB, but as a 4-3 LB, and occasionally a 4-3 DE. That type of versatility is very rare; DeMarcus Ware and Dumervil have had great sack seasons swapping from the 4-3 to the 3-4, but only at DE in the 4-3 and 3-4 OLB. Von literally added another facet to that style of versatility. I also can think of very few pass rushers who are as good against the run as he.

The only defensive player in the league superior to VM is Watt.

[Cugel]

So you think we should let him walk?

I mean, there are two alternatives, the tag or let him walk. I say pay the man, if he underperforms so be it. All indications are he will not. He sure busted his ass to come back from his suspension and has since been released from the drug program, he busted his ass coming back from injury, etc. I can only think of one other Defensive player that can change a game the way Von can, JJ Watt. We won't have Manning under contract anymore, the salary cap is going up, etc. We can afford to pay Von what it takes to keep him here. If that's making him the highest paid D player, so be it.

Hell no! They shouldn't let him walk!

But, paying him $20 M will mean that this defense which John Elway was committed to keeping together for future years will start to fall apart immediately. They have something like 15 other FAs many of which (like Malik Jackson) are key parts of the team.

Even if you cut Ryan Clady's $10 M, Vernon Davis' $4 M, and Peyton's $15 M that still isn't remotely enough to re-sign everybody. And if Von Miller is getting $20+ M that means they lose a couple of other players. That's not good.

And there are other problems. Ty Sambrailo was supposed to be the RT, not the LT, with Clady holding down the LT position. They will need to go out in FA and get a starting quality RT, because Ryan Harris is really a backup quality T and Tyler Polumbus isn't even that.

They might try and get by with Sambrailo, Harris & Schofield, but that's far from ideal.

I could write a whole chapter on the Broncos off-season problems, but this isn't the time.

[Ravage!!!]

Suh is a head case and most felt that was a mistake for the Dolphins at the outset.

Von is not a comparable situation. No one is saying the Texans made a mistake paying JJ Watt. I see that as a more apt comparison.

That's a great point, tom. SO FAR they haven't, but when their team can't compete because they can't afford anyone, then we might see a change in that. Right now, Watt is the face of their franchise, as he's ALL they have when it comes to star talent. Which is why they are where they are.

[Slick]

Ugh! Let's not worry about this until AFTER the Super Bowl.

My thoughts exactly.

[Poet]

That's a great point, tom. SO FAR they haven't, but when their team can't compete because they can't afford anyone, then we might see a change in that. Right now, Watt is the face of their franchise, as he's ALL they have when it comes to star talent. Which is why they are where they are.

Watt's contract isn't that big of a deal to them because they have never had to pay a QB big time money. Watt is their QB, lol.

[Slick]

I'm sure John's going to tell Von, look, we can pay you Suh money but say goodbye to your supporting cast and welcome to getting triple teamed every play.

[VonDoom]

Ugh! Let's not worry about this until AFTER the Super Bowl.


My thoughts exactly.

Thank you. We have a long off season coming up. There's still a game to win here. I believe I've stated this before, but if we win, I don't care what happens after that.

[Cugel]

Watt's contract isn't that big of a deal to them because they have never had to pay a QB big time money. Watt is their QB, lol.

Watt's average salary is only $16.667 M and his cap hit for 2016 is only $14.4 M. Von will get significantly more than that. If he wants Suh money that means a cap hit around $23 M.

Even if it's structured to be more cap-friendly, that's still a staggering total.

I am merely pointing out the problem, not suggesting they get rid of him.

[DenBronx]

So you think we should let him walk?

I mean, there are two alternatives, the tag or let him walk. I say pay the man, if he underperforms so be it. All indications are he will not. He sure busted his ass to come back from his suspension and has since been released from the drug program, he busted his ass coming back from injury, etc. I can only think of one other Defensive player that can change a game the way Von can, JJ Watt. We won't have Manning under contract anymore, the salary cap is going up, etc. We can afford to pay Von what it takes to keep him here. If that's making him the highest paid D player, so be it.

Hell no! They shouldn't let him walk!

But, paying him $20 M will mean that this defense which John Elway was committed to keeping together for future years will start to fall apart immediately. They have something like 15 other FAs many of which (like Malik Jackson) are key parts of the team.

Even if you cut Ryan Clady's $10 M, Vernon Davis' $4 M, and Peyton's $15 M that still isn't remotely enough to re-sign everybody. And if Von Miller is getting $20+ M that means they lose a couple of other players. That's not good.

And there are other problems. Ty Sambrailo was supposed to be the RT, not the LT, with Clady holding down the LT position. They will need to go out in FA and get a starting quality RT, because Ryan Harris is really a backup quality T and Tyler Polumbus isn't even that.

They might try and get by with Sambrailo, Harris & Schofield, but that's far from ideal.

I could write a whole chapter on the Broncos off-season problems, but this isn't the time.


Peyton is on the books for 20 mil not 15 next year. Basically that will go to Brock. The cap goes up and we roll over what we had last year. All we need to do is franchise Von next year. Focus on his long term deal after that.

[DenBronx]

Watt = The leagues best defensive player. That guy is a monster...a freakazoid!! Von is arguably #2.

[I Eat Staples]

It's difficult to fit a $20 M a year contract under the cap, as the Dolphins are finding out.

And those huge contracts tend to make players complacent as the Redskins found out when they signed Albert Haynesworth to a $100 M contract in 2009 only to have him underperform for 2 seasons, and as the Dolphins found with Suh this season. Based on his 2015 performance, there's no way they would offer him anything like his contract now. But, they're stuck with it.

Haynesworth was always lazy and basically scammed the Redskins. He didn't even play for them. And the Dolphins' coaching staff was dysfunctional last season which contributed more to Suh's complacency than his contract.

[Nomad]

I'm sure John's going to tell Von, look, we can pay you Suh money but say goodbye to your supporting cast and welcome to getting triple teamed every play.

That's usually what happens

[Poet]

Watt's average salary is only $16.667 M and his cap hit for 2016 is only $14.4 M. Von will get significantly more than that. If he wants Suh money that means a cap hit around $23 M.

Even if it's structured to be more cap-friendly, that's still a staggering total.

I am merely pointing out the problem, not suggesting they get rid of him.

Watt's deal was a huge one when it occurred, though. That's the thing, VM will get more money than Watt, but Watt is better. It's just the nature of escalating deals in a league that increases its salary cap.

I know you don't want to get rid of VM.

[BroncoNut]

I'm sure John's going to tell Von, look, we can pay you Suh money but say goodbye to your supporting cast and welcome to getting triple teamed every play.

why would he get triple teamed?

[Poet]

why would he get triple teamed?

God I wish this was in the lounge.

[weazel]

let's win that superbowl and let him walk! nobody is worth 1/5 the salary cap... not even a 39 year old QB.

also consider that he's another toke away from another lengthy suspension.

[underrated29]

I expected von to get 20mil.

Basically we are trading Peyton for Von. Easy and Done!


Malik will walk. Trev will walk. We will keep Bruton. Brock isnt going anywhere and will be 15 at the highest.

No demarcus Ware, Clady will restructure or be gone. We will draft a LT or trade for Joe T this offseason. Thats a given.

We have enough money to do whatever it is we choose.



Likely will draft a RB, a couple OL, a DE high (maybe first again), a Slot WR, and probably a MLB and ST players. IN FA we should bring in a player or two as well. A FB maybe.

[VonDoom]

also consider that he's another toke away from another lengthy suspension.

Not anymore. It's been talked about on here before, but Von is out of the drug program:


Thanks to clean record for the last two years and a revamped NFL drug policy, Broncos outside linebacker Von Miller has been discharged from the league's drug program and will no longer be subject to multiple tests a week.

Miller was suspended six games in 2013 for violating the league's substance-abuse policy and was placed in Stage 3 of its intervention program.

But he tested clean each time for the last two years.

With the old drug policy it wouldn't have mattered. He would have remained in the program for the rest of his career.

But last September the league and union agreed to a revised policy that allowed players in Stage 3 who have had no failed tests in 24 months to be eligible for discharge.



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_28574928/von-miller-released-from-nfls-drug-program

[Joel]

Ugh! Let's not worry about this until AFTER the Super Bowl.
No kidding. I mean, it doesn't sound like it's coming from Miller, but the timing sucks hard. I wonder how much of these sources comments are legit and how much is just trying to screw with a competitors title shot the only way any of them still can.

[chazoe60]

Suh was also pretty overrated. Look at his production and compare it Geno Atkins (I know he's my boy, but still) and then compare the price tag.

Von might not be the best pure pass rusher in the NFL. He ha shown the ability to rush the passer as not just a 3-4 OLB, but as a 4-3 LB, and occasionally a 4-3 DE. That type of versatility is very rare; DeMarcus Ware and Dumervil have had great sack seasons swapping from the 4-3 to the 3-4, but only at DE in the 4-3 and 3-4 OLB. Von literally added another facet to that style of versatility. I also can think of very few pass rushers who are as good against the run as he.

The only defensive player in the league superior to VM is Watt.

Keuchly might be superior. I think the top 3 defensive players in the NFL are Watt, Miller and Keuchly and I think the order is debatable.

[GEM]

let's win that superbowl and let him walk! nobody is worth 1/5 the salary cap... not even a 39 year old QB.

also consider that he's another toke away from another lengthy suspension.

He's not in protocol anymore.

[Davii]

also consider that he's another toke away from another lengthy suspension.

He is no longer in the league's drug program and is afforded the same chances as anyone else at this point.

[EastCoastBronco]

It's difficult to fit a $20 M a year contract under the cap, as the Dolphins are finding out.

And those huge contracts tend to make players complacent as the Redskins found out when they signed Albert Haynesworth to a $100 M contract in 2009 only to have him underperform for 2 seasons, and as the Dolphins found with Suh this season. Based on his 2015 performance, there's no way they would offer him anything like his contract now. But, they're stuck with it.

Like the Broncos found out when they signed Demaryus Thomas to a huge contract.

[underrated29]

Weazel,

I know no one answered you so here you go.

Von miller is not in protocol anymore.


Just an FYI

[NightTerror218]

I am down with that. I would try to lower his cap hit with big signing bonus. Players like to be shown the money, try to keep him around $20 mill a season. Prob a hefty chunk guaranteed.

[NightTerror218]

Like the Broncos found out when they signed Demaryus Thomas to a huge contract.

It's easier when the cap jumps every year. And you convert that cap to a big time player.

[Northman]

He will get paid. Outside of a couple bad instances with his pot fascination he has lights out for us when on the field.

[CoachChaz]

Obviously been a fan of Von for quite a while (for obvious reasons), and as much as it stings to say this...having Barrett, McCray and Ray on the roster eliminates the NEED to have a 20 mil player as that position. If we were light there and didnt have decisions to make elsewhere (ILB, QB, OL)...then it could be a consideration, but we don't have that luxury.

[MOtorboat]

Pay him.

[Ravage!!!]

If Andre Ware were young, I could see us having the ability to let him go. But without Ware, I don't think we should. It didn't help KC to get rid of the best pass rusher in the NFL when they had him, and the fans absolutely hated the GM for it.

We STILL have to find a QB. So I think it will ahve to be a Tag this year purely because of all the palyers we have to sign.

[Edmonton Bronco Fan]

The man deserves to get paid, he's right at the top of the list when it comes to most dominant players in this league. I would hope that he would take a minuscule discount though and take into consideration that he's gonna make his money either way. The question is whether or not he wants competitive players, and a competitive team around him.

He can take winning + a shit load of cash or take a shit load of cash that is marginally bigger while sacrificing the quality of talent around him. I think Von's a character guy and won't be as greedy as it is assumed he will be. Elway is a master negotiator, he'll work something out that's more than manageable.

[EastCoastBronco]

If we win the Super Bowl, John will drive the Brinks truck right out onto the field and pay him in cash.

[Slick]

I expected von to get 20mil.

Basically we are trading Peyton for Von. Easy and Done!


Malik will walk. Trev will walk. We will keep Bruton. Brock isnt going anywhere and will be 15 at the highest.

No demarcus Ware, Clady will restructure or be gone. We will draft a LT or trade for Joe T this offseason. Thats a given.

We have enough money to do whatever it is we choose.



Likely will draft a RB, a couple OL, a DE high (maybe first again), a Slot WR, and probably a MLB and ST players. IN FA we should bring in a player or two as well. A FB maybe.

If Denver can win the Superbowl I would highly consider trying to keep Malik and Trevathan and let Brock walk. Keep the defense intact and roll the dice with a rookie QB.

Brock didn't exactly blow me away when he played.

[Davii]

If Denver can win the Superbowl I would highly consider trying to keep Malik and Trevathan and let Brock walk. Keep the defense intact and roll the dice with a rookie QB.

Brock didn't exactly blow me away when he played.

Maybe see what Simian has and try to get RGIII or something

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

If Denver can win the Superbowl I would highly consider trying to keep Malik and Trevathan and let Brock walk. Keep the defense intact and roll the dice with a rookie QB.

Brock didn't exactly blow me away when he played.

You really shouldn't expect to be blown away in his first 6 starts. I thought he played really well considering his level of experience.

[NightTerror218]

If Denver can win the Superbowl I would highly consider trying to keep Malik and Trevathan and let Brock walk. Keep the defense intact and roll the dice with a rookie QB.

Brock didn't exactly blow me away when he played.

RG3 blew people away in his first season and now look at him.

You can look at 6 games and decide if a guy has a future or not in NFL. Best Bronco example look at B Marsh this is his 3rd team and now look at him. We got him off someone else practice squad.

[tomjonesrocks]

You really shouldn't expect to be blown away in his first 6 starts. I thought he played really well considering his level of experience.

One of the things that excited me most about Brock was arm strength. Unfortunately his deep ball accuracy is terrible.

He's also not elusive at all despite surprising mobility. And for some reason borrowed the fainting goat from Manning which is infuriating as he's a huge, young guy.

And he was downright atrocious down the stretch vs the Raiders and Steelers.

Anyway I'm not sure how much some of these things can be improved.

[Slick]

I like having the #1 defense in the NFL. I'm not saying Brock is a scrub, I'm saying if Denver has to choose between him or 2 very key defensive players, I'd consider choosing to spend that money on the defense.

[Poet]

I like having the #1 defense in the NFL. I'm not saying Brock is a scrub, I'm saying if Denver has to choose between him or 2 very key defensive players, I'd consider choosing to spend that money on the defense.

One could always draft another second round quarterback...

[aberdien]

It's difficult to fit a $20 M a year contract under the cap, as the Dolphins are finding out.

And those huge contracts tend to make players complacent as the Redskins found out when they signed Albert Haynesworth to a $100 M contract in 2009 only to have him underperform for 2 seasons, and as the Dolphins found with Suh this season. Based on his 2015 performance, there's no way they would offer him anything like his contract now. But, they're stuck with it.

Haven't read the thread. Did somebody already tell you how silly your comparison is because Haynesworth and Suh did not spend the majority of their career are Washington or Miami before getting their huge contracts? It's a whole different ball game. Von has been in Denver long enough that I would be shocked if he shit the bed out of nowhere.

[Poet]

Haynesworth was asked to change positions and was dealing with a jackass coach. Suh is just an overall turd. Von Miller is not a turd. It's science.

[tomjonesrocks]

Haynesworth was asked to change positions and was dealing with a jackass coach. Suh is just an overall turd. Von Miller is not a turd. It's science.

Haynesworth has a little piece where he writes to his younger self to avoid mistakes he made. It's pretty interesting, and Shanahan is referenced as well as the "stomp" moment.
http://www.theplayerstribune.com/albert-haynesworth-letter-to-my-younger-self/

[Poet]

Haynesworth has a little piece where he writes to his younger self to avoid mistakes he made. It's pretty interesting, and Shanahan is referenced as well as the "stomp" moment.
http://www.theplayerstribune.com/albert-haynesworth-letter-to-my-younger-self/

You're either going to copy and paste it for me, or paraphrase it. I'm riled up on bacon grease right now.

[Hawgdriver]

Haynesworth has a little piece where he writes to his younger self to avoid mistakes he made. It's pretty interesting, and Shanahan is referenced as well as the "stomp" moment.
http://www.theplayerstribune.com/albert-haynesworth-letter-to-my-younger-self/

That was a great read.

[Northman]

If Denver can win the Superbowl I would highly consider trying to keep Malik and Trevathan and let Brock walk. Keep the defense intact and roll the dice with a rookie QB.

Brock didn't exactly blow me away when he played.

Brock wont be going anywhere, better get used to it.

[TXBRONC]

Watt's average salary is only $16.667 M and his cap hit for 2016 is only $14.4 M. Von will get significantly more than that. If he wants Suh money that means a cap hit around $23 M.

Even if it's structured to be more cap-friendly, that's still a staggering total.

I am merely pointing out the problem, not suggesting they get rid of him.

This conversation can wait until the offseason.

[TXBRONC]

If Denver can win the Superbowl I would highly consider trying to keep Malik and Trevathan and let Brock walk. Keep the defense intact and roll the dice with a rookie QB.

Brock didn't exactly blow me away when he played.

Was he suppose to play like a HoF quarterback the first seven starts of his career?

[Northman]

Was he suppose to play like a HoF quarterback the first seven starts of his career?

The only way Brock is not a Bronco next year is if Denver goes and signs a vet of some kind. But considering that Brocks numbers are right there with even the most average vet QB's i seriously doubt that happens. And they arent going to sign a guy like Brees because that will cost them more money than signing Brock. The Simian thing makes me laugh because it reminds me so much of the people who kept clamoring that Dysert was better than Brock yet he was unable to unseat Brock even when both were playing with 2nd and 3rd stringers. Its amazing that some people dont appreciate that Brock actually helped this team keep winning after Manning sat out and yet want to start an unproven rookie who would most likely play a lot worse than Brock. Omazing.

[SR]

Brock wont be going anywhere, better get used to it.

With a full offseason where he would be going in to camp as the presumed starter, I think Brock may surprise people. Kubiak would really be able to implement the offense he wants with Brock. I don't think Brock will ever be the kind of guy to throw for 4000 yards and 45 TDs, but I think he could consistently be a 3000-3500 yard guy with 25-30 TDs. When he came in this season it was by no means in "normal" circumstances and there's no way to really mentally prepare yourself to be injected in to the starting QB role like that 2/3 of the way through the season. Brock did a lot of things really well, including opening up the run game quite a bit. I'm anxious to see what Brock can do with a full offseason of preparation to start under his belt. But we can save this conversation for a couple weeks from now after we're done basking in glory. ;)

[Northman]

With a full offseason where he would be going in to camp as the presumed starter, I think Brock may surprise people. Kubiak would really be able to implement the offense he wants with Brock. I don't think Brock will ever be the kind of guy to throw for 4000 yards and 45 TDs, but I think he could consistently be a 3000-3500 yard guy with 25-30 TDs. When he came in this season it was by no means in "normal" circumstances and there's no way to really mentally prepare yourself to be injected in to the starting QB role like that 2/3 of the way through the season. Brock did a lot of things really well, including opening up the run game quite a bit. I'm anxious to see what Brock can do with a full offseason of preparation to start under his belt. But we can save this conversation for a couple weeks from now after we're done basking in glory. ;)

Agreed.

Even if Brock manages to blow it a year or so from now you just cant dump a guy after 6 games. Especially when you have taken the time as an organization to invest in him while he learned from the bench behind one of the best ever. Its not like Manning himself has played better with this team this year than Brock has in fact Manning has played worse at times. I get that its going to be important that we keep certain players on this squad but there are also certain positions you need to have quality players in and right now Brock knows the scheme we run, he's had time to learn unlike a rookie or some other average vet so to swap them out only sets us back at that position which would be a waste. The way i see it right now Manning will have to go whether he plays another year or not but it sounds like this is his last game anyway. Chances are we will have to cut Ware because of age, i think we need to cut Talib and use Harris and Roby as our CB anchors. But that will still leave us in good shape with the remaining defensive players which we can draft or sign via FA. Then the Broncos will have to go and re-evaluate the Oline and make improvements there. But cutting some of the aging players will allow us to sign guys like Von and Brock with no problems.

[TXBRONC]

The only way Brock is not a Bronco next year is if Denver goes and signs a vet of some kind. But considering that Brocks numbers are right there with even the most average vet QB's i seriously doubt that happens. And they arent going to sign a guy like Brees because that will cost them more money than signing Brock. The Simian thing makes me laugh because it reminds me so much of the people who kept clamoring that Dysert was better than Brock yet he was unable to unseat Brock even when both were playing with 2nd and 3rd stringers. Its amazing that some people dont appreciate that Brock actually helped this team keep winning after Manning sat out and yet want to start an unproven rookie who would most likely play a lot worse than Brock. Omazing.

Elway has said he's going to get Osweiler signed. There is one other way Brock would be let go and that would be if somehow a top flight prospect in Aaron Rodgers type fashsion fell into Elway's lap. I don't if there are any quarterbacks that good in this draft and even if there is slim to no chance he falls far enough for Elway to get high to get him.


I don't get it either. Denver is where they are today because Osweiler came in midseason and went 5-2 (in actuality he went 4-2 since he didn't finish last game of the year.) I'm not sure what some people were expecting from a guy who had never started before. Two of the wins came against teams that were in AFC playoff and one of those teams was New England. Give the kid a break. Elway had horrible rookie season and his second just ok. That doesn't Osweiler will be Hall of Famer bu the time his career is over but does show that even great quarterbacks can humble beginnings.

[TXBRONC]

With a full offseason where he would be going in to camp as the presumed starter, I think Brock may surprise people. Kubiak would really be able to implement the offense he wants with Brock. I don't think Brock will ever be the kind of guy to throw for 4000 yards and 45 TDs, but I think he could consistently be a 3000-3500 yard guy with 25-30 TDs. When he came in this season it was by no means in "normal" circumstances and there's no way to really mentally prepare yourself to be injected in to the starting QB role like that 2/3 of the way through the season. Brock did a lot of things really well, including opening up the run game quite a bit. I'm anxious to see what Brock can do with a full offseason of preparation to start under his belt. But we can save this conversation for a couple weeks from now after we're done basking in glory. ;)

Denver faced six teams that made this years playoffs. Manning was 2-1 against the playoff teams as was Osweiler.

[Ravage!!!]

Elway has said he's going to get Osweiler signed...

Well...in all honesty, that doesn't really mean much. Of course Elway is going to say that, no matter what he's thinking right now. There is no time to say anything else until the season is completely over. So lets not simply believe that is 100% true purely because it was stated DURING the season.

But I bet we let Os shop the market, and find the value of what's being offered before we sign him. That's fair to Os, and fair to us. If we want to sign him, then we should be willing to give him what another team would be willing to give him.

I'm with you though. I think we absolutely sign him, and I don't see a single reason as to why we wouldn't.

[Slick]

Talk about blowing what I said out of porportion. I never said I didn't "appreciate what Brock did" for the team while Manning was out. Good Grief!

I'm saying if Brock's going to cost 15 mil per, you CONSIDER, you know, have a conversation in the war room about which is better for the team, keeping the number one defense intact or having the 10-15th ranked defense and Brock as the QB.

Wolfe, Ware, Miller and Jackson were a big reason why Denver's going to the Superbowl.

Brock had his hand in that too. That point isn't lost on me.

[Ravage!!!]

But the QB is the number 1 position for any team. What do you then do at QB? You are going to ahve to sign SOMEONE to the position, and someone good if you want to be a contender. Look at the QBs in the playoffs this year.

Rothlesburger
Smith
Brady
Manning
Newton
Ryan
Palmer
Rodgers
Wilson

Then look at the Championship games... Newton vs Wilson, Brady vs Manning. The QB position is HUGE no matter what. So if you don't sign the veteran QB you have on your roster, that knows the system already...then you will have to sign a veteran QB from teh free market, that isn't going to cost less money. The other option, trying to win with a drafted rookie when picking no sooner than 31st in the next draft?

The money will have to spent with either Os, or another QB that will basically cost the same, and the difference wouldn't be worth the extra chance you are taking to save the money.

[Northman]

Talk about blowing what I said out of porportion. I never said I didn't "appreciate what Brock did" for the team while Manning was out. Good Grief!

I'm saying if Brock's going to cost 15 mil per, you CONSIDER, you know, have a conversation in the war room about which is better for the team, keeping the number one defense intact or having the 10-15th ranked defense and Brock as the QB.

Wolfe, Ware, Miller and Jackson were a big reason why Denver's going to the Superbowl.

Brock had his hand in that too. That point isn't lost on me.


Well, Wolfe is already locked up so we are good there. Ware is older and in my opinion expendable, Jackson wont break the bank so to me the really just leaves two must have guys to worry about in Miller and Oz. Miller is certainly the #1 priority but i dont really think you need to sacrifice offense just for defense. Technically speaking the Panthers have a nice mix of both currently and i think that would be a great position for Denver to be in and the type of team model Denver should strive for.

[TXBRONC]

Talk about blowing what I said out of porportion. I never said I didn't "appreciate what Brock did" for the team while Manning was out. Good Grief!

I'm saying if Brock's going to cost 15 mil per, you CONSIDER, you know, have a conversation in the war room about which is better for the team, keeping the number one defense intact or having the 10-15th ranked defense and Brock as the QB.

Wolfe, Ware, Miller and Jackson were a big reason why Denver's going to the Superbowl.

Brock had his hand in that too. That point isn't lost on me.

Slick no one ragging on you brother. It's a difference of opinion.

To be fair you said he didn't impress you, that sounds dismissive.

The reality is Denver will eventually lose some of players from that defense. Ware is still signed for another year (I think), Miller is going to the main focus that makes Jackson the odd man out. He may also be the easiest to replace.

There's pretty good Manning is done no matter how this season. Then what? I would rather keep the a young quarterback who now knows system verses potentially some long in the tooth quarterback who would also have learn a new system, NFL as we know is a quarterback driven league so seem logical that you keep him over a defensive end who is solid but not spectacular.

[NightTerror218]

Talk about blowing what I said out of porportion. I never said I didn't "appreciate what Brock did" for the team while Manning was out. Good Grief!

I'm saying if Brock's going to cost 15 mil per, you CONSIDER, you know, have a conversation in the war room about which is better for the team, keeping the number one defense intact or having the 10-15th ranked defense and Brock as the QB.

Wolfe, Ware, Miller and Jackson were a big reason why Denver's going to the Superbowl.

Brock had his hand in that too. That point isn't lost on me.

You assume losing 1-2 starters means dropping 14 positions in defense rankings? Even if we lose ware arena Malik we will be a top 10 defense next season. Our DC is that good.

I trust Ray and Shaq to replace ware. He has missed several games anyways this year. Malik will be missed but we are deep at that position and we has over shadowed Malik since he returned. We will miss travathan if he is not resigned.

So are you ready to draft the next Weeded? Odds against getting a good QB in late 1st round is not great. Take a flier on possible dud at QB. We saw that Oz can run the offense and promising with 6 starts. Might not get a promising QB in draft.

[NightTerror218]

Slick no one ragging on you brother. It's a difference of opinion.

To be fair you said he didn't impress you, that sounds dismissive.

The reality is Denver will eventually lose some of players from that defense. Ware is still signed for another year (I think), Miller is going to the main focus that makes Jackson the odd man out. He may also be the easiest to replace.

There's pretty good Manning is done no matter how this season. Then what? I would rather keep the a young quarterback who now knows system verses potentially some long in the tooth quarterback who would also have learn a new system, NFL as we know is a quarterback driven league so seem logical that you keep him over a defensive end who is solid but not spectacular.

I believe ware was guaranteed money for 2 yrs at $10 million a 3rd was not guaranteed at all except signing bonus of $1.6M. Miller is paid at $9.7 million right now. Put him near $20m would be rolling over ware money to him essentially. Keeping Brock would cost a decent chuck of what Manning is paid. From there travathan is a big priority to sign and then FA.

Mani g is $2.5M dead if retires or cut or else $21.5m cap hit.

Justin Houston signed $101m for 6 yrs. This will prob be starting point for negotiations since same position. Suh is $114.7m for 6 years. Base salary of $19m and $25m signing bonus, also $59 m guarenteed.

I trust in Elway he masterful with contracts that are team friendly.

[Slick]

You assume losing 1-2 starters means dropping 14 positions in defense rankings? Even if we lose ware arena Malik we will be a top 10 defense next season. Our DC is that good.

I trust Ray and Shaq to replace ware. He has missed several games anyways this year. Malik will be missed but we are deep at that position and we has over shadowed Malik since he returned. We will miss travathan if he is not resigned.

So are you ready to draft the next Weeded? Odds against getting a good QB in late 1st round is not great. Take a flier on possible dud at QB. We saw that Oz can run the offense and promising with 6 starts. Might not get a promising QB in draft.

I understand all that.

It's not up to me so don't ask me what I want. For the 4th time, you have to at least discuss whether or not it's in the teams best interest to possibly pay a guy who you've seen start 6 games, at the expense of proven defensive studs.

We're just spitballing here. I've never said I'd just dump Brock.

I threw a hypothetical and that's it.

[Poet]

Ravage, I feel what you're saying. Let's assume Brock walks. There are usually solid QB's in the second and third round, I think we're seeing that more and more. Would it be that bad -and I don't mean to imply that you're even saying it would be bad- for Denver to grab a second rounder QB and just develop him?

Personally speaking, as of right now Brock is enough of a mixed bag that I couldn't even guess what his value is on the market.

[underrated29]

Brock stays gets around 15 mil and thats that.- Brock = Peytons contract now.

The only two on the defensive starters that are gone are likely Mali and Trev. Everyone else will stay or is under contract. Walker is here, brown may be gone or retire. Ware- is interesting. They could cut him or maybe he will come back. Maybe he retires.

[TXBRONC]

Ravage, I feel what you're saying. Let's assume Brock walks. There are usually solid QB's in the second and third round, I think we're seeing that more and more. Would it be that bad -and I don't mean to imply that you're even saying it would be bad- for Denver to grab a second rounder QB and just develop him?

Personally speaking, as of right now Brock is enough of a mixed bag that I couldn't even guess what his value is on the market.

Starting a second round or third round quarterback right away is still highly unusual. It also pretty big assumption there would be one ready enough to start right away. While Osweiler has limited experience but it's still experience. The experience includes going up against playoff caliber teams. It also puts him light years ahead of anyone they would pick up in the draft.

They have much better idea what Osweiler will bring table verse a rookie whose never taken any kind of pro snap.

[Poet]

Starting a second round or third round quarterback right away is still highly unusual. It also pretty big assumption there would be one ready enough to start right away. While Osweiler has limited experience but it's still experience. The experience includes going up against playoff caliber teams. It also puts him light years ahead of anyone they would pick up in the draft.

They have much better idea what Osweiler will bring table verse a rookie whose never taken any kind of pro snap.

It's not common, but it's doable. Dalton and Wilson posted good results as first year QB's and were largely products of their teams during the rookie campaign. I don't think Brock is going anywhere, it's more of a mental exercise than anything else.

[Joel]

If Andre Ware were young, I could see us having the ability to let him go. But without Ware, I don't think we should. It didn't help KC to get rid of the best pass rusher in the NFL when they had him, and the fans absolutely hated the GM for it.
Psst: This post may be a bit too preoccupied with QBs, because ANDRE Ware retired in '99.


We STILL have to find a QB. So I think it will ahve to be a Tag this year purely because of all the palyers we have to sign.
That still cuts both ways though: We can tag Oz as easily as Miller. Difference is, we already know what we've GOT with Miller, spreading a huge signing bonus over a long contract's less dangerous. If we do that with Oz and he flops, we're screwed: We STILL won't have a franchise QB, nor be able to afford to GET one in FA, because Oz will be a MASSIVE cap hit even if we cut or trade him.


The man deserves to get paid, he's right at the top of the list when it comes to most dominant players in this league. I would hope that he would take a minuscule discount though and take into consideration that he's gonna make his money either way. The question is whether or not he wants competitive players, and a competitive team around him.

He can take winning + a shit load of cash or take a shit load of cash that is marginally bigger while sacrificing the quality of talent around him. I think Von's a character guy and won't be as greedy as it is assumed he will be. Elway is a master negotiator, he'll work something out that's more than manageable.
Yeah, before Miller gets too aggressive, he may want to call Doom, Beadles, JT and Franklin to Discount Double Check his priorities. ;)


The only way Brock is not a Bronco next year is if Denver goes and signs a vet of some kind. But considering that Brocks numbers are right there with even the most average vet QB's i seriously doubt that happens. And they arent going to sign a guy like Brees because that will cost them more money than signing Brock. The Simian thing makes me laugh because it reminds me so much of the people who kept clamoring that Dysert was better than Brock yet he was unable to unseat Brock even when both were playing with 2nd and 3rd stringers. Its amazing that some people dont appreciate that Brock actually helped this team keep winning after Manning sat out and yet want to start an unproven rookie who would most likely play a lot worse than Brock. Omazing.
As you (et al...) said, "Brock Osweiler's not going anywhere" unless he totally flames out next year. I doubt Elway wants to spend another 3-4 years playing "sign every FA you can and hope we get over the hump before our 35-year-old QBs clock striking midnight turns him into a pumpkin." Just as importantly, I KNOW Kubiak wants to find "his guy" to groom before he gets Schaubbed out of another job. If we spend the next 3 years looking for a QB, we'll start looking for a coach, too.

That also cuts both ways though: If Oz DOES flame out next year, Elway will STILL want a long term franchise QB to keep us in contention and Kubiak will STILL want one to keep himself employed. Neither will want to be on the hook for a half-season-wonders huge contract, nor have a huge amortized signing bonus all accelerated to the next season: That just makes it that much harder to sign one of the legit franchise QBs who are never cheap anyway.

Why did Rex Ryan keep Mark Sanchez around blowing title runs long enough he took his coach down with him? Anyone believe Ryans unshakable faith in Sanchez REALLY endured through all those losses as much as he publicly claimed? Sanchez had already locked up so much cash Ryans only option was some cheap Hail Mary like Tebow or Vick, and even they were only RELATIVELY "cheap."

Pay Miller and franchise Oz; it's the only option with decent contingency plans.

[Joel]

It's not common, but it's doable. Dalton and Wilson posted good results as first year QB's and were largely products of their teams during the rookie campaign. I don't think Brock is going anywhere, it's more of a mental exercise than anything else.
While the 2nd round's yielded many good QBs, few were PENULTIMATE 2nd round picks: That's a de facto high-3rd (since you mentioned him, Dalton was the 2nd rounds THIRD pick, practically a low 1st.) Contemporary 3rd round QBs have almost uniformly awful records: If the stars align, you may get incredibly lucky with a 6th round Brady or UDFA Romo, but otherwise the best in TWO DECADES was a 3rd round Schaub. It's not ultimately his call, but I doubt Kubiak wants that. ;)

All that said, it's not like a franchise failing to find a franchise QB by the end of 2016 must close up shop. As long as it doesn't paint itself into a corner (say, by giving a career backup a huge long contract based on just 6 up and down starts ;)) it'll have draft and maybe even FA options in 2017. In fact, the worse its starting QB does in 2016 the higher its 2017 draft picks will be. If it REALLY sucks, and 2017s QB class does too, it can even take the BPA to shore up another glaring weakness and hope the QB crop doesn't suck two years in a row.

The key thing is quickly pulling the trigger on rare golden opportunities, but, quite often, the "key to the key" is not FORECLOSING those opportunities years in advance. It's a lot easier to recognize a great opportunity right in your face than avoid getting locked into distant bad ones.

Edit: I forgot Wilson was a 3rd round QB, but that was a special case since many scouts panned him because of his size and where he played. We're still talking 3 franchise QBs out of >100 post-2nd rounders; pretty bad odds.

[NightTerror218]

It's not common, but it's doable. Dalton and Wilson posted good results as first year QB's and were largely products of their teams during the rookie campaign. I don't think Brock is going anywhere, it's more of a mental exercise than anything else.

I would argue they came from deep QB class, results show that.

Lately there have not been many solid QB classes except the one with Carr in it. Looks like this year is another top heavy QB class and these guys were not even dominating in college, I have watched a lot of Goff, nothing amazing but a solid QB and the highest rated coming in draft. Wentz is the other possible top QB and then it's raw QBS and Some solid game managers like hogan and cook.

I think this is a weak QB class where it will play a huge impact on whether Oz will remain or not.

BTW Manning will get $20m next season all that would not roll into Oz.

[TXBRONC]

It's not common, but it's doable. Dalton and Wilson posted good results as first year QB's and were largely products of their teams during the rookie campaign. I don't think Brock is going anywhere, it's more of a mental exercise than anything else.

You mean you're talking for the sake of talking? :D

[Cugel]

I am down with that. I would try to lower his cap hit with big signing bonus. Players like to be shown the money, try to keep him around $20 mill a season. Prob a hefty chunk guaranteed.

This is probably the approach they will take. The problem with it is that the Bowlen family doesn't have a ton of cash like say Jerry Jones. And to provide up front money takes ca$h, which in the Broncos case comes from operating revenues.

This is idiotic for a lot of reasons - if you own a corporation worth $1.5 Billion, you can borrow any amount you reasonably want from banks against future revenues, so money is not a problem, but it's a self-imposed restraint in this case.

So, the Broncos will be limited in how much up front cash they can offer to all their FAs in the form of signing bonuses, and that will make it more difficult to re-sign Von Miller.

[Cugel]

I think this is a weak QB class where it will play a huge impact on whether Oz will remain or not.

There is ZERO probability that the Broncos draft a QB and try and start him for a defending conference championship team, and possibly a SB winning team. NONE whatever.

First of all, there may well be NO franchise QBs in this draft. Some analysts think so.

Second, even if you think there is one, chance of the Broncos drafting at #31 or #32 getting a decent QB prospect is negligible.

Third, they have invested 4 years in Osweiler. They groomed him and trained him and he knows this system. It would be idiotic to let him walk and waste all that hard work and coaching now that he's ready to start and has proven to be a decent starter.

Fourth, any veteran QB they get will either be a re-tread who has failed somewhere else, or (barely possibly) a veteran like Drew Brees who will cost over $20 M a year. Their salary cap doesn't have room for such an expensive QB - which is why they forced Peyton Manning to take a pay-cut to $15 M this season.

Fifth, they are trying to re-sign something like 15 UFAs and have only 1 franchise tag (Von Miller). They will need every penny they can get to try and retain most of these players.

Sixth, they need to find a couple of starters for their OL which will cost more money. Evan Mathis will be 35 next season and is done. They could use a TE. They might lose one or more LBs and would need to replace them, etc.

In short, the salary cap is squeezed tighter than a drum. No way they can possibly afford more than about $15 M tops for a QB, and they would like it to be less. $10-12 M would be their target for signing Osweiler, but he might demand more $.

If they let him go they would basically forfeit any chance of another SB run next season.

I'd say that even if you think Osweiler will be mediocre (maybe reasonable) it still makes zero sense to let him go because the alternatives are all worse.

[Joel]

A few of those arguments are questionable:

1) Many, though not all, of those FAs are role-players who won't break the cap.
2) Daniels has shown he can still play well, Davis remains very talented but has done NOTHING to raise his already dropping value, this years 3rd rounder should be off IR by Opening Day, and Green's a solid blocker who's shown occasional flashes in the passing game: We don't "need" a TE, certainly not a pricey one.

The other points looks good as far as they go, but that's only a SINGLE season, not nearly far enough. Brock's SHOWN enough we DEFINITELY want him back and can't get him cheap, but NOT enough we want to be locked into paying him $10-15 million/yr for the rest of the DECADE. His agent's probably not DUMB enough to take an incentive laden "prove it" deal, and the nature of contracts is that even if none of his salary's guaranteed past 2016, cutting him in 2017 would be a HUGE cap hit because a huge pro-rated signing bonus would all hit then and there. There's really only ONE way out of all that:

The franchise tag. That secures Oz for next year with the kind of guaranteed money he wants, and we can still do the big deal in 2017 if a seasons worth of starts proves him worth that price, but if he bombs we can re-sign him for the more modest salary career backups warrant, or just cut him outright. We'll also have a whole new crop of draftees and FAs to scan for the long term franchise QB Brock showed he wasn't.

Turn that around by franchising Von Miller and giving Oz the huge long term contract and all we've done is kick the can a single year down the road, after which we may not be ABLE to give Miller the huge deal he's ALWAYS worth, because we've got a $15-20 million/yr bum QB hanging around our neck.

Basically, Von Miller's ALWAYS going to get and EARN the big money he's ALREADY earned and Oz may OR MAY NOT be worth, so we should use the tag accordingly.

[NightTerror218]

A few of those arguments are questionable:

1) Many, though not all, of those FAs are role-players who won't break the cap.
2) Daniels has shown he can still play well, Davis remains very talented but has done NOTHING to raise his already dropping value, this years 3rd rounder should be off IR by Opening Day, and Green's a solid blocker who's shown occasional flashes in the passing game: We don't "need" a TE, certainly not a pricey one.

The other points looks good as far as they go, but that's only a SINGLE season, not nearly far enough. Brock's SHOWN enough we DEFINITELY want him back and can't get him cheap, but NOT enough we want to be locked into paying him $10-15 million/yr for the rest of the DECADE. His agent's probably not DUMB enough to take an incentive laden "prove it" deal, and the nature of contracts is that even if none of his salary's guaranteed past 2016, cutting him in 2017 would be a HUGE cap hit because a huge pro-rated signing bonus would all hit then and there. There's really only ONE way out of all that:

The franchise tag. That secures Oz for next year with the kind of guaranteed money he wants, and we can still do the big deal in 2017 if a seasons worth of starts proves him worth that price, but if he bombs we can re-sign him for the more modest salary career backups warrant, or just cut him outright. We'll also have a whole new crop of draftees and FAs to scan for the long term franchise QB Brock showed he wasn't.

Turn that around by franchising Von Miller and giving Oz the huge long term contract and all we've done is kick the can a single year down the road, after which we may not be ABLE to give Miller the huge deal he's ALWAYS worth, because we've got a $15-20 million/yr bum QB hanging around our neck.

Basically, Von Miller's ALWAYS going to get and EARN the big money he's ALREADY earned and Oz may OR MAY NOT be worth, so we should use the tag accordingly.

Von will be tagged, there is no question. He will not get close to the door. Same route that was used for thomas. Tag him to give you morw time to resign and let the market also dictate price. This will means take a flier on oz to resign before deadline.

I do not see how you do not understand this. Elway has done this in the past, use the tag for the guy you want to sign long term so you can turn focus on other players to lock up before deadline. This gives him months to work out a deal.

[TXBRONC]

Von will be tagged, there is no question. He will not get close to the door. Same route that was used for thomas. Tag him to give you morw time to resign and let the market also dictate price. This will means take a flier on oz to resign before deadline.

I do not see how you do not understand this. Elway has done this in the past, use the tag for the guy you want to sign long term so you can turn focus on other players to lock up before deadline. This gives him months to work out a deal.

That's only if they need more time to work out a deal. I wouldn't be surprised if they the time.

[Cugel]

A few of those arguments are questionable:

1) Many, though not all, of those FAs are role-players who won't break the cap.
And almost all of them suck too. What's your point?


2) Daniels has shown he can still play well, Davis remains very talented but has done NOTHING to raise his already dropping value, this years 3rd rounder should be off IR by Opening Day, and Green's a solid blocker who's shown occasional flashes in the passing game: We don't "need" a TE, certainly not a pricey one.

I didn't say a pricey one, but they will almost certainly add a TE in FA. This is not the most important point however and not worth arguing over in this context.


The other points looks good as far as they go, but that's only a SINGLE season, not nearly far enough. Brock's SHOWN enough we DEFINITELY want him back and can't get him cheap, but NOT enough we want to be locked into paying him $10-15 million/yr for the rest of the DECADE. His agent's probably not DUMB enough to take an incentive laden "prove it" deal, and the nature of contracts is that even if none of his salary's guaranteed past 2016, cutting him in 2017 would be a HUGE cap hit because a huge pro-rated signing bonus would all hit then and there.

The median income for a QB is around $15 M a year. So, even with Brock getting a big contract, he's not getting even as much as 16 other QBs in this league. Somewhere between $10-13 M a year is quite reasonable for a starting NFL QB who shows promise. They are going to have to take a chance because all the alternatives are vastly worse than re-signing Osweiler and giving him a chance. That means they will have to pay him. And they will.


There's really only ONE way out of all that:

The franchise tag. That secures Oz for next year with the kind of guaranteed money he wants, and we can still do the big deal in 2017 if a seasons worth of starts proves him worth that price, but if he bombs we can re-sign him for the more modest salary career backups warrant, or just cut him outright. We'll also have a whole new crop of draftees and FAs to scan for the long term franchise QB Brock showed he wasn't.

Turn that around by franchising Von Miller and giving Oz the huge long term contract and all we've done is kick the can a single year down the road, after which we may not be ABLE to give Miller the huge deal he's ALWAYS worth, because we've got a $15-20 million/yr bum QB hanging around our neck.

Basically, Von Miller's ALWAYS going to get and EARN the big money he's ALREADY earned and Oz may OR MAY NOT be worth, so we should use the tag accordingly.

This is just not doable. They will 100% use the franchise tag on Miller for a number of reasons. First, the franchise tag # for QBs is going to be close to $19 M for 2016! (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25378860/agents-take-von-miller-headlines-2016-franchise-tag-candidates) That's a LOT more than Osweiler will get and definitely more than he's worth.

Second Von's agent is clearly giving other teams the indication that Miller will want more money than Suh got last year. He isn't going to get it, but that expectation that he wants to be the highest paid defensive player in the NFL means his contract negotiations are going to be slow and rocky and they might very well NOT get a deal done this off-season.

They might have to have him play under the franchise contract and re-address the problem in 2017 when hopefully they will have more room under the cap and can negotiate a longer term deal. Whether he would play under the franchise contract for $14.4 M or so is another question. He might get angry and hold out.

[Cugel]

Default

Quote Originally Posted by NightTerror218 View Post
Von will be tagged, there is no question. He will not get close to the door. Same route that was used for thomas. Tag him to give you morw time to resign and let the market also dictate price. This will means take a flier on oz to resign before deadline.

I do not see how you do not understand this. Elway has done this in the past, use the tag for the guy you want to sign long term so you can turn focus on other players to lock up before deadline. This gives him months to work out a deal.


This is 100% just what Elway is going to do. The real problem won't be negotiating with Osweiler, it will be convincing Von Miller to accept less than Suh got last year in a horrible deal that is just crushing the Dolphins' salary cap this year. The Dolphins mortgaged their future for a guy who just got a grand total of 6 sacks in 2015 and was a "disappointment" in the words of the Dolphins' GM.

There is a long history in the NFL of defensive players signing huge deals and never living up to them. Von is going to get a lot of money, I just hope it isn't $22 M a year.

[Joel]

Von will be tagged, there is no question. He will not get close to the door. Same route that was used for thomas. Tag him to give you morw time to resign and let the market also dictate price. This will means take a flier on oz to resign before deadline.
He's annually on the short list of DPoY candidates: We know his price, else paying the average of the top five salaries at his position wouldn't be reasonable.

SINCE we know that, we might as well bite the bullet and luck up through his 30th birthday now: Waiting a year can only drive his price higher and reduce how many quality years we get for it. If we'd paid Clady his value instead of franchising him, then paying it ANYWAY a year LATER, we'd be facing HALF the cap hit for releasing a 30-year-old with three major leg injuries to avoid paying the $10 million/yr he's due through 2017.


I do not see how you do not understand this. Elway has done this in the past, use the tag for the guy you want to sign long term so you can turn focus on other players to lock up before deadline. This gives him months to work out a deal.
Just because Elway does something doesn't mean it's smart, or smart in all situations. THIS situation is unique: We haven't faced it since Elway LEFT. Even in '06, Plummer probably would've returned if we hadn't benched and then shipped him; even if he hadn't, we still had Cutler on his minimal rookie contract, so it wasn't 'pay him or lose him, and if he'd bombed in '07 we could've moved on cheaply.

We KNOW Von Miller's a likely HoFer in his prime, and that our other likely HoF OLB is also likely to RETIRE in 2 weeks: That means we also KNOW we'll re-sign Miller at a huge price; the only unknown is the precise definition of "huge" (but whatever it is in 2016, it'll be MORE in 2017.) So waiting to re-sign him doesn't change anything (except the price, which gets WORSE.) Waiting to re-sign Oz could change a HELL OF A LOT.

I don't understand the argument for delaying Miller's contract, especially since the franchise tag will STILL be a big cap hit (especially for an OLB.) "It buys us time:" Yeah— LITERALLY, because it trades time for CAP MONEY when inflation raises the price of a big long 2017 contract we should've signed in 2016. The best way to avoid a big cap hit is a huge signing bonus (so he gets his big payday) spread over a long contract to cushion the blow. Delaying and INFLATING that contract raises both its price and the risk of eating dead money at the end by cutting a washed up injury-plagued thirtysomething. That's not how to avoid Cap Hell: It's how to ENSURE it.

Explain how expensively franchising Clady before giving him the huge contract he was ALWAYS going to get helped us.

You don't "take a $100 million flyer" on a QB with half a dozen career starts. If we think the ballpark for his annual salary is $12-15 million, what kind of signing bonus is that? Because the answer is how much cap space we'll EAT—in ONE YEAR—if he bombs and we cut him in 2017. Or, y'know, we can restructure so we're "only" blowing $10 million/yr for 5 years on a guy we wouldn't start with a gun to our heads.

This isn't like Clady or DT because 1) Miller's better (I love DT, but it's so) and 2) it would mean "there is no Plan B" at QB for the next 3-4 years. Which, if Oz fizzles, is the same as saying, "the rest of Kubiaks time as head coach." The best to be said of that "plan" is we'd get a lot of top draft picks while we were going 4-12 every year with Mark Sanchez 2.0.

[Joel]

And almost all of them suck too. What's your point?
That they're not going to make or break our cap: Next years cap questions are

1) Does Ware retire?
2) Do we cut Clady (I'll go ahead and answer "probably" to that one, but restructuring isn't a horrible option) and
3) Is savings from the above+Mannings retirement<the cost of Ware+Oz and possibly Jackson?

I wouldn't say Anderson, Bolden, Bruton, Caldwell, Fowler, Keo, McCray, McManus, Norwood, Paradis or Trevathan "suck," but they're about the only guys I'd miss (sorry-not-sorry, Hillman) that Elway's likely to WANT (i.e. probably not Mathis or Davis.) And unless Anderson or Hillman win a SB MVP in a week-and-a-half, Marshall is probably the only one who'll be really pricey. As unfortunate as Bolden and Brutons injuries are NOW, they'll lower next years value for both.


I didn't say a pricey one, but they will almost certainly add a TE in FA. This is not the most important point however and not worth arguing over in this context.
Fair enough, but it's the same principle as the above one: Miller and Oz together will likely cost nearly $30 mil next year WHOEVER pays it; it'd take a lot of nickels and dimes to matter in that cap equation. The $37½ million elephants in this room are Manning, Clady and Ware (especially while Barrett and Ray wait in the wings.)

Interestingly, Robert Mathis and our upcoming foe Thomas Davis are tied for 5th highest OLB salary next year; I don't know if the franchise tag counts both. But even if it does, the tag alone would put Miller at just under $12 million next year, so how much would it REALLY save us over the top salary (Justin Houstons) of just under $17 million? The obvious answer is "$5 million," but inflation will cost us a big chunk of that in 2017.


The median income for a QB is around $15 M a year. So, even with Brock getting a big contract, he's not getting even as much as 16 other QBs in this league. Somewhere between $10-13 M a year is quite reasonable for a starting NFL QB who shows promise. They are going to have to take a chance because all the alternatives are vastly worse than re-signing Osweiler and giving him a chance. That means they will have to pay him. And they will.
Ironically, the best argument is the same against both signing Oz OR franchising him: BOTH options would be HUGE cap hits he might not justify. The average of the top 5 2016 QB salaries is pretty close to $20 mil, so signing Oz would be a major savings, but with major risks if he bombs. And no, the alternatives are not "vastly worse;" one year with no franchise QB is onerous, but 3-4 years with no franchise QB OR money to GET one, THAT would be the "vastly worse" alternative. We can probably hold most of this D together 2 more years, but 4-5? Father Time will get us if FA doesn't.


This is just not doable. They will 100% use the franchise tag on Miller for a number of reasons. First, the franchise tag # for QBs is going to be close to $19 M for 2016! (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25378860/agents-take-von-miller-headlines-2016-franchise-tag-candidates) That's a LOT more than Osweiler will get and definitely more than he's worth.
I concede that's a good argument, but if Oz bombs, while we'd take a lot of ribbing for paying $20 mil for a bum QB, it might be worth that for the ability to GET RID OF HIM a year from now, WITHOUT having to eat as much or more in accelerated signing bonus money.


Second Von's agent is clearly giving other teams the indication that Miller will want more money than Suh got last year. He isn't going to get it, but that expectation that he wants to be the highest paid defensive player in the NFL means his contract negotiations are going to be slow and rocky and they might very well NOT get a deal done this off-season.
If he's smart he'll take a contract like Watt signed two years ago: He can't plausibly argue he contributes more, that would give him a NICE $35 million payday upfront, plus about $12 million/yr for the next 6, and us a manageable $15 million/yr cap hit; everyone wins. Just because the Dolphins were dumb enough to give a suspension-magnet pushing 30 $115 million, over HALF up front, doesn't mean everyone will or should.


They might have to have him play under the franchise contract and re-address the problem in 2017 when hopefully they will have more room under the cap and can negotiate a longer term deal. Whether he would play under the franchise contract for $14.4 M or so is another question. He might get angry and hold out.
Well, ask him if he'll play the next 6 years for an average of $2 million/yr less than that if we throw in $40 million up front; I suspect the answer will be "yes, please!" That gives us a cap hit of ~$17½ million next year (lower than it could EVER be in ANY 2017 signing) and him $50 million IN THE BANK, plus the NFLs highest defensive contract: $115 million over 6 years ($625,000 more than Suhs brain-damaged contract.)

I don't mean to say it's as simple as that, but it's also not nearly as impossible as people make it out to be. Even if it were, it'll be even HARDER in 2017, because the market will only go higher, and it's an open question whether the cap will keep pace. Plus, y'know... we may be shopping for a franchise QB despite the handicap of $30 million in dead money.

One of the many things Elway's been lauded for, especially this year, retaining the flexibility, leverage and cap space to keep signing big FAs because HE'S CONSISTENTLY AVOIDED BIG DEAD MONEY FIGURES. The kind of contract I just hypothesized as "huge" for Miller is the same kind of contract ya'll are talking about as "average" for Oz: The difference is Miller's not going to leave us eating that $30 million cap hit in 2017 AND with NOTHING at his spot; Oz just may.

Well, we've looked at the numbers, and what's the OTHER difference?

1) $18 mil to pay Miller what he's earned+$20 mil to franchise Oz=$38 million 2016 cap hit.
2) $12 mil to franchise Miller+$15 mil to pay Oz what we HOPE he earns=$27 million 2016 cap hit.

$11 million's a big difference, yes, but remember: Miller eventually gets the first number ANYWAY (more, if we wait, for less quality years,) so we're really just talking about $5 million more to franchise Oz and LOCK UP Miller rather than LOCK UP Oz and keep arguing money with Miller. We can win games and make title runs with Shane Ray/Shaq Barrett plus a franchise QB TBA; we can't win games and make title runs with Von Miller plus Mark Sanchez.

[NightTerror218]

No Joel....that is all.

[Joel]

No Joel....that is all.
I hope Oz is as good as all the homers say then: Remember Tebowmania? How'd you like FOUR years of that instead of just one? Elway could surprise ya'll though; he didn't get us to two SBs in four years by just painting us into corners and hoping Manning can bail us out (which he won't be here to do after our next game.)

Tell ya what: If we DO give Oz a 4-5 year deal at $12-15 year and he DOES bomb, do I retain the right to spend the next 4 years or so saying, "I told you so, remember when even SUGGESTING this possibility was The Dumbest Idea EVAH?!" Y'know, instead of people saying, "Pfft, you have a keen eye for old news; big deal, and why do you keep talking about it? :rolleyes:" I should start bookmarking this stuff; folks around here have less short term memory than Jerry Garcia and George Carlin.

[SR]

I hope Oz is as good as all the homers say then: Remember Tebowmania? How'd you like FOUR years of that instead of just one? Elway could surprise ya'll though; he didn't get us to two SBs in four years by just painting us into corners and hoping Manning can bail us out (which he won't be here to do after our next game.) Tell ya what: If we DO give Oz a 4-5 year deal at $12-15 year and he DOES bomb, do I retain the right to spend the next 4 years or so saying, "I told you so, remember when even SUGGESTING this possibility was The Dumbest Idea EVAH?!" Y'know, instead of people saying, "Pfft, you have a keen eye for old news; big deal, and why do you keep talking about it? :rolleyes:" I should start bookmarking this stuff; folks around here have less short term memory than Jerry Garcia and George Carlin.

The idea that you'd even mention "Tebowmania" in comparing Os is laughable. I'm sure you'd love nothing more than to be right. Don't see that happening.

[TXBRONC]

I hope Oz is as good as all the homers say then: Remember Tebowmania? How'd you like FOUR years of that instead of just one? Elway could surprise ya'll though; he didn't get us to two SBs in four years by just painting us into corners and hoping Manning can bail us out (which he won't be here to do after our next game.)

Tell ya what: If we DO give Oz a 4-5 year deal at $12-15 year and he DOES bomb, do I retain the right to spend the next 4 years or so saying, "I told you so, remember when even SUGGESTING this possibility was The Dumbest Idea EVAH?!" Y'know, instead of people saying, "Pfft, you have a keen eye for old news; big deal, and why do you keep talking about it? :rolleyes:" I should start bookmarking this stuff; folks around here have less short term memory than Jerry Garcia and George Carlin.

Really you're comparing Tebowmania to Osweiler? That's dumb.

[Northman]

Well if anything about Joel he is quite comical even though his takes are completely off the mark.

[chazoe60]

So many words to say so little.

[Ravage!!!]

I hope Oz is as good as all the homers say then: Remember Tebowmania? How'd you like FOUR years of that instead of just one? Elway could surprise ya'll though; he didn't get us to two SBs in four years by just painting us into corners and hoping Manning can bail us out (which he won't be here to do after our next game.)

Tell ya what: If we DO give Oz a 4-5 year deal at $12-15 year and he DOES bomb, do I retain the right to spend the next 4 years or so saying, "I told you so, remember when even SUGGESTING this possibility was The Dumbest Idea EVAH?!" Y'know, instead of people saying, "Pfft, you have a keen eye for old news; big deal, and why do you keep talking about it? :rolleyes:" I should start bookmarking this stuff; folks around here have less short term memory than Jerry Garcia and George Carlin.

This is ironic considering how you were SCREAMING at the idea of giving up Tebow for Manning. The fact that you KEEP trying to tell us that you have an eye for talent is the laughable part. How is that TE working out that you were screaming for? Whats-his-name....Vernon Davis?

It's pretty EASY to guess that a young QB won't be the next "HoF" QB. But to even suggest that Os is at the LOW LOW level of Tebow is embarrrassing for you.

What is your suggestion, spend the money on a veteran QB, again? Then, use a high draft choice on a back up while we decide if we should keep the veteran or move forward with the high round pick?

The funny part is, is that many drafting experts were talking on how Os WOULD have been a high round pick the next year had he stayed in college. So what's the differnce? Why not stick with the guy that has actually proved on the field that he seems to have the make-up to POSSIBLY be a pretty decent QB?

But the answer to your question is no. You have ZERO clout when it comes to "I told you so" when it comes to evaluating QB talent. Zero.

[SR]

But Rav, he read a book about football.

[Ravage!!!]

But Rav, he read a book about football.

True. What will we do when he reads a second one?

[SR]

True. What will we do when he reads a second one?

Take over NFLN is my guess.

[TXBRONC]

So many words to say so little.

This speaks volumes in so few words.

[Joel]

Really you're comparing Tebowmania to Osweiler? That's dumb.
Of course not: Tebowmania only lasted a year, not THREE.


This is ironic considering how you were SCREAMING at the idea of giving up Tebow for Manning. The fact that you KEEP trying to tell us that you have an eye for talent is the laughable part. How is that TE working out that you were screaming for? Whats-his-name....Vernon Davis?

It's pretty EASY to guess that a young QB won't be the next "HoF" QB. But to even suggest that Os is at the LOW LOW level of Tebow is embarrrassing for you.

What is your suggestion, spend the money on a veteran QB, again? Then, use a high draft choice on a back up while we decide if we should keep the veteran or move forward with the high round pick?

The funny part is, is that many drafting experts were talking on how Os WOULD have been a high round pick the next year had he stayed in college. So what's the differnce? Why not stick with the guy that has actually proved on the field that he seems to have the make-up to POSSIBLY be a pretty decent QB?

But the answer to your question is no. You have ZERO clout when it comes to "I told you so" when it comes to evaluating QB talent. Zero.
Half a dozen career starts is "proven on the field" eh? Guess it's NOT like Tebow: He got 16 starts.

The difference is riding with Tebow for another YEAR wouldn't have cost us $100 million, and stuck us with him—for 3 years or more, even if he NEVER got better. Tebow bombs, you're out a couple million and find a REAL QB next year. Oz bombs, you 1) leave him out there 2) pay him $100 million to ride the bench or 3) eat a $30 million cap hit (or more) to find a REAL QB next year. Though "$30 million cap hit" and "find a real QB" go poorly together.

[Joel]

But Rav, he read a book about football.
Ah, the classic "literacy is dumb" argument. Bet whoever does your taxes loves that one: Especially the part where he sends your IRA to his Cayman bank account.

"Karras only pawn in game of life." :rolleyes:

[I Eat Staples]

I'm with you though. I think we absolutely sign him, and I don't see a single reason as to why we wouldn't.

Well, one reason is that there's a lot of risk in signing an unproven QB to a longterm deal. Kaepernick and Tannehill showed more than Brock has and their teams are having major buyer's remorse right now. Putting big money into a QB and them not working out could be a disaster.

I'm not saying we shouldn't sign Brock, but I can see both sides of the coin. I'll be alright with whatever Denver decides to do.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I try not to concern myself with contracts and finances. I'm a fan of the team, not their accountant. I've never really understood why fans get so riled up about player contracts. Sure, if a player gets a huge contract and then stinks it up it sucks, but nobody can predict that. I think it's more important to keep a defense this special together as much as possible than it is to worry about the cap and contracts.

Lots of folks are upset with DT this season because he "underperformed". He still had over 1300 yds receiving. Yes, he dropped some passes he should've caught but this team is better with him than without him. I'm a big DT fan and I was disappointed with his drops this season, but lots of our receivers dropped passes. The new scheme was an adjustment for everyone and it's not a pass-first offense anymore. Receivers need to get in rhythm too.

As for Von, we are a better team with him than without him. I'll let JFE and his staff worry about how much to pay him. John and Co have been pretty good so far at building a roster that wins games. 2 Super Bowl appearances in the last 3 years is pretty awesome. The only roster move that I don't like is Schofield. I just don't understand it. I think he's the biggest liability on this team.

[Ravage!!!]

Well, one reason is that there's a lot of risk in signing an unproven QB to a longterm deal. Kaepernick and Tannehill showed more than Brock has and their teams are having major buyer's remorse right now. Putting big money into a QB and them not working out could be a disaster.

I'm not saying we shouldn't sign Brock, but I can see both sides of the coin. I'll be alright with whatever Denver decides to do.

I get the risk. That risk is involved with ANY signing. There is a bigger risk in 'drafting' another QB that we've never seen on the field. The risk is always there, that is part of the gamble that you take with every player, at every position. It is what it is.

The advantage is that we have a QB that we've had the chance to evaluate for the last 4 years. We've seen him on the field, and off the field. We know if he's handles his business in the study room and in the practices. We know if he's showing up for meetings, and how he deals with the locker room. Considering the situation he had to deal with coming in off the bench and replacing a HoF'er in a Super Bowl running season, I can say that we've seen how he can handle pressure. Hell, that goes with going up against Brady during the regular season.

So yes, its taking a risk...but that decision is based on actual information. We KNEW Tebow was bad bad, and we knew enough to let him go asap, because seeing him on the field scared the living hell out of anyone and everyone that thought about trying to build around that crap. But does anyone really feel that trying to build around Os is bbuilding around the crap we had with Tebow? Is taking a chance on Os really bigger than trying to draft a guy and THEN find out if he can perform on the field, even at the level Os already has (no matter what level you believe that to be)?

[Ravage!!!]

Of course not: Tebowmania only lasted a year, not THREE.


Half a dozen career starts is "proven on the field" eh? Guess it's NOT like Tebow: He got 16 starts.

The difference is riding with Tebow for another YEAR wouldn't have cost us $100 million, and stuck us with him—for 3 years or more, even if he NEVER got better. Tebow bombs, you're out a couple million and find a REAL QB next year. Oz bombs, you 1) leave him out there 2) pay him $100 million to ride the bench or 3) eat a $30 million cap hit (or more) to find a REAL QB next year. Though "$30 million cap hit" and "find a real QB" go poorly together.

Probably the most ridiculous statement I've seen you make. "It would have been better to stick with Crap, because Crap would have cost less money."

[Joel]

Well, one reason is that there's a lot of risk in signing an unproven QB to a longterm deal. Kaepernick and Tannehill showed more than Brock has and their teams are having major buyer's remorse right now. Putting big money into a QB and them not working out could be a disaster.

I'm not saying we shouldn't sign Brock, but I can see both sides of the coin. I'll be alright with whatever Denver decides to do.
Bingo; glad someone gets it.


I try not to concern myself with contracts and finances. I'm a fan of the team, not their accountant. I've never really understood why fans get so riled up about player contracts. Sure, if a player gets a huge contract and then stinks it up it sucks, but nobody can predict that. I think it's more important to keep a defense this special together as much as possible than it is to worry about the cap and contracts.
If you don't do the second one you CAN'T do the first one.


I get the risk. That risk is involved with ANY signing. There is a bigger risk in 'drafting' another QB that we've never seen on the field. The risk is always there, that is part of the gamble that you take with every player, at every position. It is what it is.
Yeah, but DRAFTING a QB won't BLOW UP OUR CAP like re-signing Oz to even an average deal will if he busts. If we draft a bust QB we dump him and move on to the next guy: As Staples says, SF couldn't do that with Kaep, because they were in so deep ANYTHING they did would cost the franchise MULTIPLE seasons.


The advantage is that we have a QB that we've had the chance to evaluate for the last 4 years. We've seen him on the field, and off the field. We know if he's handles his business in the study room and in the practices. We know if he's showing up for meetings, and how he deals with the locker room. Considering the situation he had to deal with coming in off the bench and replacing a HoF'er in a Super Bowl running season, I can say that we've seen how he can handle pressure. Hell, that goes with going up against Brady during the regular season.
We've seen him on the field SIX GAMES, and before this year we barely even saw him PRACTICE, because Manning grabbed every first team snap to ensure he was fully prepared for each game. The only thing we've got FOUR YEARS of is the "handling his business in the study room" bit, but the guy before Manning was elite at that, and it didn't make him elite on the field.


So yes, its taking a risk...but that decision is based on actual information. We KNEW Tebow was bad bad, and we knew enough to let him go asap, because seeing him on the field scared the living hell out of anyone and everyone that thought about trying to build around that crap. But does anyone really feel that trying to build around Os is bbuilding around the crap we had with Tebow? Is taking a chance on Os really bigger than trying to draft a guy and THEN find out if he can perform on the field, even at the level Os already has (no matter what level you believe that to be)?
We've only "seen" about a THIRD as much of Oz, and giving him the big long contract it'll take to keep him without the franchise tag doesn't leave us the option of dumping him a year later like we did when Tebow didn't pan out for us. It's painting ourselves into a very expensive multi-season corner, hoping Oz isn't the next Sanchez or Kaep, even though the odds are that's EXACTLY what he is.

Manning was one thing, because he had a huge and good body of work, but I don't want to live in "there is no Plan B" forever.

[Joel]

Probably the most ridiculous statement I've seen you make. "It would have been better to stick with Crap, because Crap would have cost less money."
16 starts in 2 seasons didn't make Tebow a known quantity any more than 6 starts in 1 makes Oz one: I wanted to FIND OUT if Tebow would improve, knowing we weren't on the hook long term. If he got better with a full season of starts, great; if not, we got a high draft pick for a NEW QB.

Sign Oz for $100 million or more over 4 years or more with $20-30 of it up front and we don't get to dump him and move on if he sucks next year. The franchise tag is the ONLY way to keep him without MARRYING him, because if we don't do that or give him the mega-deal he walks.

Meanwhile, tagging Miller instead doesn't save us a dime, but COSTS us, because his price can only go up next year. Might as well do THAT deal now.

[Ravage!!!]

16 starts in 2 seasons didn't make Tebow a known quantity any more than 6 starts in 1 makes Oz one: I wanted to FIND OUT if Tebow would improve, knowing we weren't on the hook long term. If he got better with a full season of starts, great; if not, we got a high draft pick for a NEW QB.
This is where you are COMPLETELY wrong. It absolutely did. That's where you keep showing your lack of seeing talent/play on the field and knowing what you are seeing. Tebow's lack of skill was HIGHLY evident. Not only on the game field, but in practices. Listen to the people at practices and let them tell you just how BAD BAD BAD timmy was. He was horrible, and you just don't want to accept that fact.

its VERY VERY evident that Os' starts show TONS more potential and skill than what Tebow showed in his. I'm sorry you aren't skilled enough to see that, nore willing to accept it. I'm sure you'll just keep preaching on what "could have been." Everyone has to have a dream.


Sign Oz for $100 million or more over 4 years or more with $20-30 of it up front and we don't get to dump him and move on if he sucks next year. The franchise tag is the ONLY way to keep him without MARRYING him, because if we don't do that or give him the mega-deal he walks.

So you want to franchise tag him after sitting him for 4 years. That's awesome. That's how to treat your players. That's just an aweful way of doing business. You want to give him the average of the top 5 QBs in teh NFL PURELY so that you can "evaluate" him for a season and THEN decide if we should keep him or not? Why would he sign with Denver after that? Stay away from my team.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Giving Brock $25 million guaranteed with a 5 year 50 million dollar contract seems like a no brainer, if he'll sign it.

[weazel]

I just wish Von wasn't still in the drug program.

[Valar Morghulis]

I just wish Von wasn't still in the drug program.

Not sure if it has been confirmed, but i am fairly sure one more positive test - and he will be castrated. At least thats what i heard.

[Joel]

I frankly think many people have decided they know what ELWAY will decide, then worked backward to rationalize "Elways" decision AS his decision. If so, they're making two BIG assumptions: That Elway 1) will give Oz a huge deal based on 6 starts plus a year of practices and 2) is infallible. No one KNOWS what Elway will do, and if he were flawless we wouldn't keep trying to win SBs with a tissue paper line "protecting" an aging, fragile immobile QB with NO run support.

We'll see; hopefully Oz beats the odds so we're not stuck with an expensive mediocre QB for the next 3-4 years, till he gets Kubiak fired like Schaub did. Better yet, hopefully Elway avoids playing Osweiler or Bust for the rest of the DECADE: We can't keep the #1 D intact waiting for a franchise QB THAT long.

[Joel]

This is where you are COMPLETELY wrong. It absolutely did. That's where you keep showing your lack of seeing talent/play on the field and knowing what you are seeing. Tebow's lack of skill was HIGHLY evident. Not only on the game field, but in practices. Listen to the people at practices and let them tell you just how BAD BAD BAD timmy was. He was horrible, and you just don't want to accept that fact.

its VERY VERY evident that Os' starts show TONS more potential and skill than what Tebow showed in his. I'm sorry you aren't skilled enough to see that, nore willing to accept it. I'm sure you'll just keep preaching on what "could have been." Everyone has to have a dream.
Yeah, OK: SIX starts and a YEAR of practices "prove" Oz the next Jim Thorpe. Sorry I've been so blind.


So you want to franchise tag him after sitting him for 4 years. That's awesome. That's how to treat your players. That's just an aweful way of doing business. You want to give him the average of the top 5 QBs in teh NFL PURELY so that you can "evaluate" him for a season and THEN decide if we should keep him or not? Why would he sign with Denver after that? Stay away from my team.
Boo hoo: He'd be GUARANTEED $19 MILLION next year. Cugel's on firmer ground saying that's TOO MUCH for an unproven QB than you are calling it a slap in the face.

[Northman]

So you want to franchise tag him after sitting him for 4 years. That's awesome. That's how to treat your players. That's just an aweful way of doing business. You want to give him the average of the top 5 QBs in teh NFL PURELY so that you can "evaluate" him for a season and THEN decide if we should keep him or not? Why would he sign with Denver after that? Stay away from my team.

To be honest this is probably the one area where i agree with Joel about. Anyway you slice it, if you put Von or Brock with a tag they may react badly to that. But Von has already done proven his worth so he should get paid accordingly, to not pay him is a bigger insult in my opinion. Brock on the other hand is the fly in the ointment. Keeper said it best that its hard to gauge Brocks worth at this time because his sample size is so small. Obviously, i think he will be fine and want to keep him BUT.. in the best interest of the organization and to protect themselves from another Griese issue it may behoove them to tag Brock just to see what the kind of demand is for him.

[Valar Morghulis]

I frankly think many people have decided they know what ELWAY will decide, then worked backward to rationalize "Elways" decision AS his decision. If so, they're making two BIG assumptions: That Elway 1) will give Oz a huge deal based on 6 starts plus a year of practices and 2) is infallible. No one KNOWS what Elway will do, and if he were flawless we wouldn't keep trying to win SBs with a tissue paper line "protecting" an aging, fragile immobile QB with NO run support.

We'll see; hopefully Oz beats the odds so we're not stuck with an expensive mediocre QB for the next 3-4 years, till he gets Kubiak fired like Schaub did. Better yet, hopefully Elway avoids playing Osweiler or Bust for the rest of the DECADE: We can't keep the #1 intact waiting for a franchise QB THAT long.

who would rather have in their prime - Moon or Elway?

[Northman]

who would rather have in their prime - Moon or Elway?

Joel would take Moon, he's a big fanboy of his.

[DenBronx]

Giving Brock $25 million guaranteed with a 5 year 50 million dollar contract seems like a no brainer, if he'll sign it.


10 mill a year for Brock? Yeah we should sign that deal yesterday. He will get alot more than that.

[Ravage!!!]

Yeah, OK: SIX starts and a YEAR of practices "prove" Oz the next Jim Thorpe. Sorry I've been so blind.
:lol: Nope... it just proves that he's a LOT better than Tebow. That's easy. But yes, I'm sorry you've been so blind to that.



Boo hoo: He'd be GUARANTEED $19 MILLION next year. Cugel's on firmer ground saying that's TOO MUCH for an unproven QB than you are calling it a slap in the face.
That's not the point. It's just ridiculous to franchise tag the guy for a "trial." He walks if you do that, so that 1 year you got as a start from him, was useless. What did it gain you? Paying a rental QB 19 million for him to walk away the next year? What is the gain, because you think you'll be able to tell if you want to resign him, AGAIN, after the next 16 starts? You just told me that 16 starts wasn't enough to judge the horrible Tebow, why would it be enough for Os? Make up your mind.

[Timmy!]

Mods, please rename this thread "Joel whines about Tebow yet again" TIA.

[TXBRONC]

:lol: Nope... it just proves that he's a LOT better than Tebow. That's easy. But yes, I'm sorry you've been so blind to that.



That's not the point. It's just ridiculous to franchise tag the guy for a "trial." He walks if you do that, so that 1 year you got as a start from him, was useless. What did it gain you? Paying a rental QB 19 million for him to walk away the next year? What is the gain, because you think you'll be able to tell if you want to resign him, AGAIN, after the next 16 starts? You just told me that 16 starts wasn't enough to judge the horrible Tebow, why would it be enough for Os? Make up your mind.

Don't tell Joel this but Jim Thrope wasn't a quarterback.

[TXBRONC]

Giving Brock $25 million guaranteed with a 5 year 50 million dollar contract seems like a no brainer, if he'll sign it.

I got believe that's in-line with what he would get on the open market.

[SR]

Ah, the classic "literacy is dumb" argument. Bet whoever does your taxes loves that one: Especially the part where he sends your IRA to his Cayman bank account. "Karras only pawn in game of life." :rolleyes:

No one said "literacy is dumb". The points you try so very hard to make, however, are.

[Cugel]

That they're not going to make or break our cap: Next years cap questions are

1) Does Ware retire?

2) Do we cut Clady (I'll go ahead and answer "probably" to that one, but restructuring isn't a horrible option) and

3) Is savings from the above+Mannings retirement<the cost of Ware+Oz and possibly Jackson?

I wouldn't say Anderson, Bolden, Bruton, Caldwell, Fowler, Keo, McCray, McManus, Norwood, Paradis or Trevathan "suck," but they're about the only guys I'd miss (sorry-not-sorry, Hillman) that Elway's likely to WANT (i.e. probably not Mathis or Davis.) And unless Anderson or Hillman win a SB MVP in a week-and-a-half, Marshall is probably the only one who'll be really pricey. As unfortunate as Bolden and Brutons injuries are NOW, they'll lower next years value for both.

Unless the Broncos win the SB Ware isn't retiring, and he might not retire anyway.


Fair enough, but it's the same principle as the above one: Miller and Oz together will likely cost nearly $30 mil next year WHOEVER pays it; it'd take a lot of nickels and dimes to matter in that cap equation. The $37½ million elephants in this room are Manning, Clady and Ware (especially while Barrett and Ray wait in the wings.)

With Miller's agent talking to other teams about wanting MORE than Suh got they are thinking about more than a $20 M contract, because Suh's 2016 contract is 2016: $23,485,000. Now I think there's absolutely no way Elway would ever agree to something like that. But, if somewhere north of $20 M a year is Miller's initial asking price, the negotiations are going to be very rough. He's going to have to come down significantly to reach agreement. Previously, the speculation was that his contract was going to be a bit more than what Justin Houston got from KC last year:


Justin Houston signed a 6 yea (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/justin-houston/)r, $101,000,000 contract with the Kansas City Chiefs, including a $20,500,000 signing bonus, $52,500,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $16,833,333. The deal includes $32.5 million in upfront guarantees, consisting of his signing bonus, 2015 salary, and $11 million of his 2016 salary. An additional $3 million of 2016 salary plus $6.75M of his 2017 salary becomes fully guaranteed on the 3rd league day of 2016. $6.75M more of his 2017 salary fully guarantees on the 3rd league day of 2017.

I assumed that Miller would get something like this. After all, Houston was coming off a 22 sack year in 2014, while Miller only got 11 sacks and a combined 35 tackles. Now, Miller is a better player than Justin Houston overall, but his numbers are not remotely comparable - half as good in fact as Houston's contract year, so I think it's hard to argue that he should get $5 million more a year or something.

I thought $16 M with something like $22 M up front would do it. Now I think it might well be more like $18 M average a year, and a $60+ M guarantee might do it.

BTW, the franchise tag for LBs next season will be around $14 M. So Miller will be wildly unhappy if he has to play under the franchise contract.


Ironically, the best argument is the same against both signing Oz OR franchising him: BOTH options would be HUGE cap hits he might not justify. The average of the top 5 2016 QB salaries is pretty close to $20 mil, so signing Oz would be a major savings, but with major risks if he bombs. And no, the alternatives are not "vastly worse;" one year with no franchise QB is onerous, but 3-4 years with no franchise QB OR money to GET one, THAT would be the "vastly worse" alternative. We can probably hold most of this D together 2 more years, but 4-5? Father Time will get us if FA doesn't.


I don't know why you think Osweiler is going to get something like 4 or 5 years guaranteed contract. He'll get about 2 years or $25 M guaranteed and he's well worth that.

The Broncos are going to give Osweiler 2 years before they decide that he's not going to develop. We already know that he's not going to "bomb" because he's played 6 games and shown he has a good grasp of the system, has a very good arm, and has shown real leadership. His coaches and teammates love him and Elway is proud of him. I think the chances he becomes a FA are about zero. As long as their contract offer is fair, I think they will wrap up negotiations sometime in February on a 5 or 6 year deal with some performance bonuses, similar to what Manning has in his contract - $2 M for winning the AFC Championship game if he started and played 3/4 of the game, and another $2 if he wins the SB.

Having invested 4 years in training this guy, and given the fact that there are no viable FA QBs out there who would be better (other than maybe Drew Brees) makes it most unlikely the Broncos would punt their season away by signing a veteran re-tread QB and trying to draft another rookie. This team is obviously ready to compete for the SB right now regardless of what happens in this game, and may be the defending SB champion. NO WAY they are taking a step back by trying to find a QB and integrating him into the Kubiak system.

Absolutely no way in Hell will that happen.

They are not going to franchise Osweiler. Elway is going to make it a huge priority to sign him immediately after the season, and I expect they will get a deal done in February.

[NightTerror218]

Bingo; glad someone gets it.

If you don't do the second one you CAN'T do the first one.

Yeah, but DRAFTING a QB won't BLOW UP OUR CAP like re-signing Oz to even an average deal will if he busts. If we draft a bust QB we dump him and move on to the next guy: As Staples says, SF couldn't do that with Kaep, because they were in so deep ANYTHING they did would cost the franchise MULTIPLE seasons.

We've seen him on the field SIX GAMES, and before this year we barely even saw him PRACTICE, because Manning grabbed every first team snap to ensure he was fully prepared for each game. The only thing we've got FOUR YEARS of is the "handling his business in the study room" bit, but the guy before Manning was elite at that, and it didn't make him elite on the field.

We've only "seen" about a THIRD as much of Oz, and giving him the big long contract it'll take to keep him without the franchise tag doesn't leave us the option of dumping him a year later like we did when Tebow didn't pan out for us. It's painting ourselves into a very expensive multi-season corner, hoping Oz isn't the next Sanchez or Kaep, even though the odds are that's EXACTLY what he is.

Manning was one thing, because he had a huge and good body of work, but I don't want to live in "there is no Plan B" forever.

Are you wanting us the be the Browns. Draft QBS who bust and then move on and repeat. ****

[NightTerror218]

I frankly think many people have decided they know what ELWAY will decide, then worked backward to rationalize "Elways" decision AS his decision. If so, they're making two BIG assumptions: That Elway 1) will give Oz a huge deal based on 6 starts plus a year of practices and 2) is infallible. No one KNOWS what Elway will do, and if he were flawless we wouldn't keep trying to win SBs with a tissue paper line "protecting" an aging, fragile immobile QB with NO run support.

We'll see; hopefully Oz beats the odds so we're not stuck with an expensive mediocre QB for the next 3-4 years, till he gets Kubiak fired like Schaub did. Better yet, hopefully Elway avoids playing Osweiler or Bust for the rest of the DECADE: We can't keep the #1 intact waiting for a franchise QB THAT long.

You crack me up. I doubt Oz will get a long term contract but a 2-3 yr extension with middle of the pack starter money BECAUSE he only has 6 starts. He will not get elite money. He will get starter money from someone.

[Joel]

who would rather have in their prime - Moon or Elway?
Tough call, but North's right: Moon carried my team to the playoffs 7 years straight when ALREADY past his prime, no longer a true dual threat, just a pocket passer with NO edge protection. Watching get strip-sacked from behind by people he couldn't even SEE, game after game, was my introduction to how critical OTs are. Everyone ELSE could see it coming, from the stands and on TV, but Moon didn't have eyes in the back of his skull: Just blitzers.

That's also how I learned even the best QBs need run support: That team was physically incapable of running out the clock, however big its lead, thus The Comeback. Stupid Dud Adams handpicking Gs to draft, then trying to make elite Gs decent OTs while REFUSING to run. Some years there wasn't even a TE on the ROSTER... :mad:

[Joel]

:lol: Nope... it just proves that he's a LOT better than Tebow. That's easy. But yes, I'm sorry you've been so blind to that.
No, it doesn't even prove that, no matter how bad the other guy was. Oz had 6 starts on a defensive team, with which he had ONE good drive each at the end of regulation at home vs. KC, NE* and Cincy. ONE great 4th qtr drive EVERY OTHER GAME?! That wasn't good enough in 2011, but we could've dumped THAT guy for nothing if he didn't improve in 2012; sign Oz to a big long deal and we're stuck with him—good or bad—till 2018 or 2019.

That's not the point. It's just ridiculous to franchise tag the guy for a "trial." He walks if you do that, so that 1 year you got as a start from him, was useless. What did it gain you? Paying a rental QB 19 million for him to walk away the next year? What is the gain, because you think you'll be able to tell if you want to resign him, AGAIN, after the next 16 starts? You just told me that 16 starts wasn't enough to judge the horrible Tebow, why would it be enough for Os? Make up your mind.
If a career benchwarmer with 6 starts thinks he's worth >$19 million/yr, best we find out now so he can be somebody elses prima donna headache. As North said, if we're worried about anyone quitting the team over a franchise tag, it should be VON MILLER, precisely BECAUSE he's done more to merit a big long contract. Miller's done a HELL of a lot more, so franchising him would be a FAR bigger slap in the face, and signing him a MUCH smaller "gamble."

Ya'll act like we MUST sign Oz or we're doomed: DOOOOMED!!! The reality is we'd survive, but may well be doomed if we DO sink a big chunk of cap into a guy with just 6 up and down starts. You're right, he's nothing like Tebow: He's got a THIRD as many starts, despite TWICE the practice time, and hasn't performed ANY of the same game-winning heroics. What has Oz done that makes him SO indispensable? :confused:


Mods, please rename this thread "Joel whines about Tebow yet again" TIA.
That's some real nice selective reading there, Tim.


Don't tell Joel this but Jim Thrope wasn't a quarterback.
"Thrope" was everything: Primary PASSER, but also primary runner AND primary kicker, plus he played when coming out meant STAYING out till the next quarter, so he was a DEFENSIVE starter too. He was the greatest athlete in the world, and I didn't say that: The King of Sweden said it at the Olympics.


No one said "literacy is dumb". The points you try so very hard to make, however, are.
Just that reading makes people dumb; that's a very semantic argument for someone who hates thinking. ;)


Are you wanting us the be the Browns. Draft QBS who bust and then move on and repeat. ****
We're a long way from being the Browns. For one thing, we're only talking about ONE QB, not half a dozen. For another, Oz was drafted at the bottom of the second round, not the top of the first. But let's pursue this analogy: Are you saying Cleveland would've been better off paying Tim Couch or Brady Quinn $100 million and sticking with them for 5 years? Giving Oz the kind of big long contract it'll take to keep him without a tag somehow magically prevents him busting? :confused:


You crack me up. I doubt Oz will get a long term contract but a 2-3 yr extension with middle of the pack starter money BECAUSE he only has 6 starts. He will not get elite money. He will get starter money from someone.
Why couldn't he get starter money (including a big bonus) for a 5 year contract somewhere else? Again, does giving him a 2-3 year contract instead of the tag make the many other bidders any less desperate for a franchise QB they need so badly they're willing to take a flyer on a career backup with 6 mediocre starts?

[NightTerror218]

We are one draft away from being the browns. They give up on QBs left and right and draft a 1st rounder every other year. Weeden, Manziel, Quinn to name a few.

Any QB is mediocre in there first few starts. No new starting QB is lights out. What are smoking?

Btw what is the point of mentioning quinn. Have a hard on for him as well as tebow so you always bring up former Denver QBs?

Oz was a late 2nd rounder in a very deep QB class. But was evaluated as possibly being on of the top QBS the next year if he would have waited since it was a weak QB class. I think he was a steal that year because QB class was deep. Otherwise we had no shot at him. He has been solid and will only get better since he o lunch has 6 starts.

[Joel]

Unless the Broncos win the SB Ware isn't retiring, and he might not retire anyway.
If you say so; he's been having back spasms at least as far back as before we played Dallas in 2013 (because that was his first game back after missing two weeks with the injury.) If we win the SB, he may very well decide there's nothing left to prove at his bodys expense. Whether we win it or not, his injury doesn't appear to be going away, and we have Barrett and Ray waiting, so how sure are you that we pay him the $10 million he's due next year?


With Miller's agent talking to other teams about wanting MORE than Suh got they are thinking about more than a $20 M contract, because Suh's 2016 contract is 2016: $23,485,000. Now I think there's absolutely no way Elway would ever agree to something like that. But, if somewhere north of $20 M a year is Miller's initial asking price, the negotiations are going to be very rough. He's going to have to come down significantly to reach agreement. Previously, the speculation was that his contract was going to be a bit more than what Justin Houston got from KC last year:
We can't look at just Suhs $23½ for ONE year of a SIX year contract: His base salary drops to <$10 million in 2017, and I doubt Miller will take that next year either. Suhs contract AVERAGES $19 mil/yr, with $25 mil upfront and $60 mil guaranteed, which is why his number for next year's so eye-popping (with the amortized signing bonus, his 2016 cap hit's nearly $30 million!) It's an insane contract, and John Elway's not insane, but I can't find anything that caps signing bonuses for veterans, so should be able to give Miller more TOTAL and GUARANTEED cash with a bigger signing bonus. Possibly a MUCH bigger one that might leave him earning a little less than Suh next year on paper, but guarantee him more.


I assumed that Miller would get something like this. After all, Houston was coming off a 22 sack year in 2014, while Miller only got 11 sacks and a combined 35 tackles. Now, Miller is a better player than Justin Houston overall, but his numbers are not remotely comparable - half as good in fact as Houston's contract year, so I think it's hard to argue that he should get $5 million more a year or something.

I thought $16 M with something like $22 M up front would do it. Now I think it might well be more like $18 M average a year, and a $60+ M guarantee might do it.
That's probably reasonable, and worth it since we know what we're getting and he's got plenty of good years left. But the longer we wait, the less that's true, especially the last part.


BTW, the franchise tag for LBs next season will be around $14 M. So Miller will be wildly unhappy if he has to play under the franchise contract.
Which is a great argument AGAINST tagging him. We didn't do ourselves any contractual or cap favors by tagging Clady just so we had to give him a huge payday a year later ANYWAY, but AFTER another year of inflated salaries and caps inflated a contract that was always going to be huge in the first place.


I don't know why you think Osweiler is going to get something like 4 or 5 years guaranteed contract. He'll get about 2 years or $25 M guaranteed and he's well worth that.
Why wouldn't the many teams desperate for a QB beat that? And if Oz IS a franchise QB, do you really want to be BACK here in 2018, with Oz demanding whatever the 2018-inflated equivalent of a Drew Brees contract is, KNOWING he'll get it from SOMEONE? That's one of the big risks of franchising him next year, but worth it (since we'll eventually have to pay it anyway, and 2017s price will beat 2018s) for insurance in the more likely event he's average or worse and we dump him.


The Broncos are going to give Osweiler 2 years before they decide that he's not going to develop. We already know that he's not going to "bomb" because he's played 6 games and shown he has a good grasp of the system, has a very good arm, and has shown real leadership. His coaches and teammates love him and Elway is proud of him. I think the chances he becomes a FA are about zero. As long as their contract offer is fair, I think they will wrap up negotiations sometime in February on a 5 or 6 year deal with some performance bonuses, similar to what Manning has in his contract - $2 M for winning the AFC Championship game if he started and played 3/4 of the game, and another $2 if he wins the SB.
Maybe YOU "know" Oz won't bomb, but I don't, and doubt Elway does either. His few starts weren't exactly eye-popping. The line "protects" and provides as little run support for him as it does for Manning, so that doesn't prove him a failure, but it hardly proves him a success either. How much are we willing to commit based on 3-4 good drives in 6 games?


Having invested 4 years in training this guy, and given the fact that there are no viable FA QBs out there who would be better (other than maybe Drew Brees) makes it most unlikely the Broncos would punt their season away by signing a veteran re-tread QB and trying to draft another rookie. This team is obviously ready to compete for the SB right now regardless of what happens in this game, and may be the defending SB champion. NO WAY they are taking a step back by trying to find a QB and integrating him into the Kubiak system.

Absolutely no way in Hell will that happen.
Be very leery of the whole "there are never any good QBs in the draft, or only 1-2, who are unavailable without a top five pick." Life and the NFL aren't that grim, else we wouldn't be debating whether a late 2nd round QB is the future of the franchise: We'd "know" he's not.


They are not going to franchise Osweiler. Elway is going to make it a huge priority to sign him immediately after the season, and I expect they will get a deal done in February.
Maybe. Probably, if I had to bet, but the devil's in the details, for many reasons. There's NO reason Oz must take our 2-3 year deal with $25 mil up front when other teams will likely offer him 4-5 years with $30-40 mil up front. Has he shown you enough we should match that, with a $10-15 million base salary on top? That's a cap hit of at least $16 and possibly as much as $25 million next year, and if he bombs we either keep riding him ANYWAY or eat $20-30 million in dead money in 2017.

[Joel]

We are one draft away from being the browns. They give up on QBs left and right and draft a 1st rounder every other year. Weeden, Manziel, Quinn to name a few.
No one's talking about "giving up" on ANYONE, much less half a dozen early 1st round picks: I'm talking about franchising a LATE pick from the SECOND round and seeing if 16 starts prove him a franchise QB. Again, are you saying the Browns would be OK if they'd just kept starting Weeden, Manziel or Quinn for 4-5 years? :confused:


Any QB is mediocre in there first few starts. No new starting QB is lights out. What are smoking?

Btw what is the point of mentioning quinn. Have a hard on for him as well as tebow so you always bring up former Denver QBs?
No, I brought him up for the same reason YOU bring up Manziel and Weeden: Because YOU brought up the Browns in the first place, and they drafted all those guys. I also thought Broncos fans might remember Quinn better Couch (another Browns draftee I mentioned) since he came here after bombing in Cleveland. Since you ask, I tend to think ALL ND players are overrated by "virtue" of simply BEING ND players, but did want Quinn to replace Orton rather than a guy I considered just another overhyped SEC "dual threat." It's kind of funny and sad everyone says I have a "hard on" for that other guy just because his PLAY changed my mind.


Oz was a late 2nd rounder in a very deep QB class. But was evaluated as possibly being on of the top QBS the next year if he would have waited since it was a weak QB class. I think he was a steal that year because QB class was deep. Otherwise we had no shot at him. He has been solid and will only get better since he o lunch has 6 starts.
A lot of fans have said the same things about a lot of QBs. We'll see. I hope you're right, because odds are Oz gets that big long contract, with the consequent cap hit, so we're stuck with him whether he's great, awful or somewhere between the two (and the last one's the most likely if we're being honest.) He does have the advantage of fitting the system of a coach who needs his own guy to groom early enough he's not still SEEKING that guy when a series of bums get him fired.

[Valar Morghulis]

I thought so Joel.

While I think I am objective, rational and unafraid to criticize the Broncos... You seen to find it much easier to doubt Elway than me.

I think it I'd because you were an oilers fan you are a little immune to Elway and his magic.

As far as I can see, 5 Superbowl appearances and every record worth talking about as a player, 4 division titles, two Superbowl appearances, a historic offense, now a historic defence, great moves in FA and some gems in the draft as a GM (or whatever his official title is)....... The guy can do no wrong!

[Joel]

I thought so Joel.

While I think I am objective, rational and unafraid to criticize the Broncos... You seen to find it much easier to doubt Elway than me.

I think it I'd because you were an oilers fan you are a little immune to Elway and his magic.

As far as I can see, 5 Superbowl appearances and every record worth talking about as a player, 4 division titles, two Superbowl appearances, a historic offense, now a historic defence, great moves in FA and some gems in the draft as a GM (or whatever his official title is)....... The guy can do no wrong!
Tell that to Peyton Mannings ribs, thighs, ankles and feet. Or CJ Andersons, for that matter. Extending John Foxs contract for failing to prepare us for a SB so we got blown out of it literally on the first snap was a GOOD decision? Please explain; use diagrams for the benefit of the illiterate. :tongue:

[Hawgdriver]

Joel types. Everyone attacks. Discontent blossoms.

[Joel]

Joel types. Everyone attacks. Discontent blossoms.
This disunity only aids our enemies. I mean, "Carolina" even sounds like "Al Qaeda," and "Osweiler" sounds like a foreign name: MANCHURIAN QUARTERBACK1!1 :tongue:

More seriously, it's telling how much of a thread about an OLB declaring he wants to be the NFLs highest paid defender devolved into discussing a QBs contract. Guess we'll see just how much—and precisely HOW—Doom mentored him (as I believe Miller said during Faxgate.) People in Hell want ice water, Von. :( We can't tag Oz because he might get so mad he takes his 6 starts and goes home, but tagging a former DRoY who thinks himself literally NFL DMVP surely won't bother HIM.... ;)

[Yashahla17]

Von miller said a long time ago it wasnt all about the cash. He will definitely get paid a large salary especially after what he did to tom brady, if he terrorizes cam. Ewton aswell in back to. Back big games the price will go up more. But i hope not 20 million a year

[Joel]

Von miller said a long time ago it wasnt all about the cash. He will definitely get paid a large salary especially after what he did to tom brady, if he terrorizes cam. Ewton aswell in back to. Back big games the price will go up more. But i hope not 20 million a year
I suspect it's less about the average than the first year or two, if only because restructuring with more years is an option later. I wasn't aware of it till I started looking at the yearly break down of recent contracts, but it looks like the NFL only allows bonuses to be amortized over 5 years, and restructuring allows that amortization to be shifted around a little, so with contracts >5 years there's a good argument for restructuring extensions after 2-3 to spread the pain even more.

The big things I keep coming back to are that

1) Von Miller's a known and premium quantity, commanding a quantity of CASH that can only rise in 2016: It's a question of WHEN, not if, we take that big cap hit.
2) Your boy's very much UNknown, but showed just enough in 6 starts he won't come cheap, so won't cost much less to re-sign than franchise as insurance.

We can survive the absence of a franchise QB for a year or two: What we can't survive is 3-4 years of cap Hell WITHOUT a franchise QB AND being forced to cut most of the #1 D because we either have to pay a career benchwarmer or eat a $20 mil cap hit for cutting him. Odds are Miller gets the tag, however much it pisses him off, discourages home town discounts and generally raises the price of his final contract, while Oz gets a big contract NOW and isn't awful.

It's still risky as HELL due to FAR bigger downsides than locking up a likely HoFer who's proven it on the field, then waiting to see if a 6-start QB's WORTH locking up.

[SR]

Von miller said a long time ago it wasnt all about the cash. He will definitely get paid a large salary especially after what he did to tom brady, if he terrorizes cam. Ewton aswell in back to. Back big games the price will go up more. But i hope not 20 million a year

Dammit.

[CoachChaz]

As it pertains to Brock, we cant simply forget the fact that there are other teams with much more cap flexibility than us that need a QB. Think a young guy like Brock wont be interesting to them as well? Think he'll ride the bench for 3+ years and immediately have a loyalty to stick with us for perhaps a few million less per year? I wouldn't assume he'll be here and I certainly wouldn't get into a bidding war for his services.

What I would consider...assuming health checked out...would be looking at RGIII, who excelled in Shanny's system (similar to Kubiak) and drafting a QB early. With very few clear cut options at our positions of need late in the 1st round, a Connor Cook might be a good call there...especially for the offense we run now.

[Northman]

As it pertains to Brock, we cant simply forget the fact that there are other teams with much more cap flexibility than us that need a QB. Think a young guy like Brock wont be interesting to them as well? Think he'll ride the bench for 3+ years and immediately have a loyalty to stick with us for perhaps a few million less per year? I wouldn't assume he'll be here and I certainly wouldn't get into a bidding war for his services.

What I would consider...assuming health checked out...would be looking at RGIII, who excelled in Shanny's system (similar to Kubiak) and drafting a QB early. With very few clear cut options at our positions of need late in the 1st round, a Connor Cook might be a good call there...especially for the offense we run now.

I would save the money if you are doing that. Take your chances with Cook but RGIII isnt worth it.

[BroncoJoe]

I would save the money if you are doing that. Take your chances with Cook but RGIII isnt worth it.

I doubt RGIII will cost anyone a "fortune". At all.

[Northman]

I doubt RGIII will cost anyone a "fortune". At all.

I just dont think he is worth the time.

[CoachChaz]

I just dont think he is worth the time.

No one is going to give him a deal that cripples the team, so you may have a chance to get him on a 2 or 3 year deal and put him in a system he has already had success in. By drafting a guy like Cook, etc., you also have the insurance plan in place if the experiment fails. If RGIII bombs, he gets released and the team is fine. It's not like he's going to get a 7 year deal with 100 mil guaranteed, but I'd expect Brock to get 15-16 mil per year on his next deal, if not more...regardless of who it's from.

If we dont want to pay Brock that much, expect to hear names like RGIII and Bradford (if he comes down on his early price tag) to get thrown around frequently.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I don't think we'll give RG3 more than what he'll get from the 9ers.

[chazoe60]

I don't think we'll give RG3 more than what he'll get from the 9ers.

Why would the 9ers give RG3 anything considering they have a bigger version already on the payroll?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Why would the 9ers give RG3 anything considering they have a bigger version already on the payroll?

Chip Kelly reportedly wants to bring him in to compete with Kap.

[Yashahla17]

Lol rg3 over brock? Id rather stick with brock.

[tomjonesrocks]

Last we saw RGIII he was getting rag dolled in preseason. I can't remember a QB being so easily and visibly thrown around.

Actually think he's a pretty tough guy but he looks so frail and slight out there I don't know what good he is. Him surviving a full season seems impossible.

[CoachChaz]

Lol rg3 over brock? Id rather stick with brock.

With an unlimited cap or...no other holes to fill or...no ILB's to sign...or not needing to drop a ton on Von....

Sure. I'd keep Brock. Unfortunately, we need to do all those other things first.

[Joel]

With physically gifted FA busts, I have three questions:

1) Are they young enough to "un-learn" bad instincts and habits developed BY busting, or is the damage PERMANENT?
2) Are your coaches ABLE to develop better skills and instincts?
3) Are your blockers and receivers good enough to develop good habits, or so bad they just reinforce bad ones?

I think we have the coaching and receivers, and will have the line after another offseason to rebuild it; the remaining question is: Is RGIII, Bradford or any of their counterparts salvageable? Or would Kubiak end up with another Plummer or Schaub, trying to break their old firm mental blocks, but only rarely, briefly, succeeding. I don't think he'll repeat that mistake, or that of using smoke and mirrors to get a subpar QB like Griese to a lone Pro Bowl before the gimmicks become transparent.

Among the best arguments for Oz are that he IS prototypical for Kubiaks system and hasn't had many bad game ingrain bad habits/instincts, so Kubiak can develop him from the start of BOTH their tenures. It's not the same as a new coach getting the rookie QB of his choice, but in one sense it could be better: Oz is no longer a green college kid wide-eyed at the NFLs much bigger, more complex and more challenging stage.

So I'm pretty much resigned to Oz getting the big contract, Miller (probably) getting tagged, and then hoping Oz is at least within hailing distance of the first ballot HoFer Yashahla insists he is. And that tagging one of, if not THE, best defender in the NFL doesn't alienate him so badly he follows in the OTHER footsteps of the guy he's called his mentor: Elvis Dumervil. Maybe he can take a lesson from Ware, a HoFer playing on his first SB team.

[Cugel]

As it pertains to Brock, we cant simply forget the fact that there are other teams with much more cap flexibility than us that need a QB. Think a young guy like Brock wont be interesting to them as well? Think he'll ride the bench for 3+ years and immediately have a loyalty to stick with us for perhaps a few million less per year? I wouldn't assume he'll be here and I certainly wouldn't get into a bidding war for his services.

What I would consider...assuming health checked out...would be looking at RGIII, who excelled in Shanny's system (similar to Kubiak) and drafting a QB early. With very few clear cut options at our positions of need late in the 1st round, a Connor Cook might be a good call there...especially for the offense we run now.

No frigging way. NONE.

This is a Super Bowl team. They need a QB who can compete for a championship right now, not MAYBE 3 years from now. As for RG III, HELL NO!

He's the opposite of what they want. Doesn't put the work in, has declined in effectiveness after his rookie season, has a poor attitude and got into conflicts with Mike Shanahan. No possible way he winds up in Denver.

[Cugel]

With an unlimited cap or...no other holes to fill or...no ILB's to sign...or not needing to drop a ton on Von....

Sure. I'd keep Brock. Unfortunately, we need to do all those other things first.

Fortunately, you're not John Elway. They are going to make it their #1 priority to re-sign Osweiler to a $10-12 M a year contract this month, or prior to FA.

There is no other viable option. He's been successful in this offense and will be better with more experience, he has a good arm, he's a hard worker, his teammates love him.

Oh, and most important, John Elway likes the guy. He drafted him, developed him and invested 4 years in him. Unless some team is willing to offer Osweiler well above $15 M there's no chance he gets away.

In fact, I'd be very surprised if he even reaches FA without a new contract.

[Cugel]

With physically gifted FA busts, I have three questions:

1) Are they young enough "un-learn" bad instincts and habits developed BY busting, or is the damage PERMANENT?
2) Are your coaches ABLE to develop better skills and instincts?
3) Are your blockers and receivers good enough to develop good habits, or so bad they just reinforce bad ones?

Hard to argue with this Joel, but what FAs are we talking about? Aside from Drew Brees, who I do NOT think will become a FA since the Saints have no viable alternative this season, there's not one guy who would pass the gag test.


Among the best arguments for Oz are that he IS prototypical for Kubiaks system and hasn't had many bad game ingrain bad habits/instincts, so Kubiak can develop him from the start of BOTH their tenures. It's not the same as a new coach getting the rookie QB of his choice, but in one sense it could be better: Oz is no longer a green college kid wide-eyed at the NFLs much bigger, more complex and more challenging stage.

So I'm pretty much resigned to Oz getting the big contract, Miller (probably) getting tagged, and then hoping Oz is at least within hailing distance of the first ballot HoFer Yashahla insists he is. And that tagging one of, if not THE, best defender in the NFL doesn't alienate him so badly he follows in the OTHER footsteps of the guy he's called his mentor: Elvis Dumervil. Maybe he can take a lesson from Ware, a HoFer playing on his first SB team.

Denver fans are spoiled. Fans take the position "if he's not good enough to win the SB we shouldn't overpay for him. Teams over-pay for mediocre QBs because they have no alternatives and so will the Broncos. I think Osweiler will be mediocre to decent, but certainly no Hall of Fame QB. I've been saying for years he's the next Brian Griese. Griese after all played 11 seasons in the NFL and had several good years. He just wasn't good enough to win a SB. And Osweiler is going to get close to the NFL median income of around $15 M a year.

Well, about 20 starting QBs in the NFL aren't good enough to win SBs. If you're the Buffalo Bills and have Tyrod Taylor, EJ Manuel or Josh Johnson, it doesn't matter how good the other 50 guys on your team are. You have ZERO chance of winning the SB. But what choice do they have? Another retread FA? Try and find someone in the draft when there might be ZERO decent QBs in the entire draft and even if there are they go in the top 5?

There are lots of teams like that. Denver could very well be one of them, so they better win the SB this season. They might not be back again for another 10 years or more.

[Joel]

Hard to argue with this Joel, but what FAs are we talking about? Aside from Drew Brees, who I do NOT think will become a FA since the Saints have no viable alternative this season, there's not one guy who would pass the gag test.
I dunno, Bradford might if Philly lets him go; hard to know ahead of time how much and how permanently they and the Rams have stunted his skills and damaged his instincts. Same with Stafford if Detroit decides they're overpaying for a QB underproducing, though I concede an $11 million cap hit makes that unlikely.

Here's a crazy thought: The story out of Houston in 2013 was that Kubiak really wanted U of H alumn Case Keenum, but McNair wouldn't let him spend (even) a (7th round) pick, so Kubiak wound up hoping the kid wouldn't get drafted AT ALL. When he didn't, Kubiak immediately signed him as an UDFA: Both he AND TJ Yates (who won Kubiak a playoff game as a rookie backup) are FAs next year. Which leads to the next point:


Denver fans are spoiled. Fans take the position "if he's not good enough to win the SB we shouldn't overpay for him. Teams over-pay for mediocre QBs because they have no alternatives and so will the Broncos. I think Osweiler will be mediocre to decent, but certainly no Hall of Fame QB. I've been saying for years he's the next Brian Griese. Griese after all played 11 seasons in the NFL and had several good years. He just wasn't good enough to win a SB. And Osweiler is going to get close to the NFL median income of around $15 M a year.
As an aside, Griese NEVER had Oz' arm, but it's unclear Oz has ANYTHING like Grieses accuracy and decision-making.


Well, about 20 starting QBs in the NFL aren't good enough to win SBs. If you're the Buffalo Bills and have Tyrod Taylor, EJ Manuel or Josh Johnson, it doesn't matter how good the other 50 guys on your team are. You have ZERO chance of winning the SB. But what choice do they have? Another retread FA? Try and find someone in the draft when there might be ZERO decent QBs in the entire draft and even if there are they go in the top 5?
THIS was where I was going: "What choice do they have?" Well, they can give up and resign themselves to indefinite mediocrity, or seize WHATEVER chance they have to DO something that averts that fate. Maybe it'll work and maybe not, but they KNOW what the alternative gets them (though I think the jury's still out on Taylor; guy's got 14 career starts and a 95.0 career passer rating, so let's wait a bit before declaring him boom OR bust.)


There are lots of teams like that. Denver could very well be one of them, so they better win the SB this season. They might not be back again for another 10 years or more.
You seem to apply a Mortons Fork to these discussions: Franchise QBs are SO important that EVERY team's DOOMED if it signs anything less, yet so RARE that EVERY team's DOOMED if it signs anyone but whom it's got. If franchise QBs are truly that important, ANY team without one should constantly be seeking one: Kubiak was clearly trying to save his job by replacing Schaub (with the meager tools McNair permitted) when he took Yates in the 5th and signed Keenum as a UDFA a year later.

There ARE a lot of teams in QB Purgatory, but many aren't there because they give up too quickly and roll the dice again: Many remain stuck because they're too afraid of giving up on a guy who "just needed a little more time" or hold out for a top 5 draft pick they're NEVER gonna get without a season so bad it gets the whole coaching staff fired. Franchise QBs are premium commodity's; teams must CREATE opportunities to get one, and still need some luck.

[Joel]

For the record: The current list of 2016 FA QBs (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/quarterback/).

[Yashahla17]

Fortunately, you're not John Elway. They are going to make it their #1 priority to re-sign Osweiler to a $10-12 M a year contract this month, or prior to FA.

There is no other viable option. He's been successful in this offense and will be better with more experience, he has a good arm, he's a hard worker, his teammates love him.

Oh, and most important, John Elway likes the guy. He drafted him, developed him and invested 4 years in him. Unless some team is willing to offer Osweiler well above $15 M there's no chance he gets away.

In fact, I'd be very surprised if he even reaches FA without a new contract.

Agreed. Looks like my absence has brung cugel to speaking some truth and facts.

[Pudge]

Agreed. Looks like my absence has brung cugel to speaking some truth and facts.

Maybe you should try your disappearing act again

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Agreed. Looks like my absence has brung cugel to speaking some truth and facts.

:laugh:

Hey Cugel, this dude is taking credit for your insights.

[CoachChaz]

Fortunately, you're not John Elway. They are going to make it their #1 priority to re-sign Osweiler to a $10-12 M a year contract this month, or prior to FA.

There is no other viable option. He's been successful in this offense and will be better with more experience, he has a good arm, he's a hard worker, his teammates love him.

Oh, and most important, John Elway likes the guy. He drafted him, developed him and invested 4 years in him. Unless some team is willing to offer Osweiler well above $15 M there's no chance he gets away.

In fact, I'd be very surprised if he even reaches FA without a new contract.

And you've completely lost your mind if you think Oz can be had for 10-12 million. Think teams with a bunch of cap room like the Browns, Texans, Eagles and Rams wont be interested? And I'm not saying we WONT re-sign him...I'm just saying there has to be a contingency plan because we WONT be his only suitor and funds might be a little tight.

Try to follow along a little closer.

[Ravage!!!]

What I would consider...assuming health checked out...would be looking at RGIII, who excelled in Shanny's system (similar to Kubiak) and drafting a QB early.

Oh **** that.. Screw that idea. That's the worse suggestion yet. They had to completely limit his reads because he doesn't read. He doesn't have quickness, he has speed, and he's fragile as they come. Please please please..... lets avoid that COMPLETE disaster with the information that has been given ove rthe years. The kid doesn't have it. Avoid him at all costs.

[Ravage!!!]

I can't believe anyone suggested Bradford and Keenum. Holy Frak.... I know you guys are into using coupons, but sometimes you are better off spending money for the better product than shopping on the bottom shelf. I'm all for discounts at the right position, but hoping to get "bradford, Keenum, or RGIII" just made me want to puke him my mouth. We would be the laughing stock of the NFL for doing that after a Super Bowl run, no matter how the turnout of that game.

[NightTerror218]

I can't believe anyone suggested Bradford and Keenum. Holy Frak.... I know you guys are into using coupons, but sometimes you are better off spending money for the better product than shopping on the bottom shelf. I'm all for discounts at the right position, but hoping to get "bradford, Keenum, or RGIII" just made me want to puke him my mouth. We would be the laughing stock of the NFL for doing that after a Super Bowl run, no matter how the turnout of that game.

I do not have a problem with a cheap RG3 as a backup. Dude has a lot of talent and a weak body. But he would work well in this system. He could be killer on roll outs but his instinct to run could kill him. I think Elway looked at him and luck in the draft gauging the QBs.

[Slick]

Bottom line for me is pay this defense. They've earned it. John will figure out the QB situation. No way John will have some scrub playing QB for Denver.

[Joel]

I can't believe anyone suggested Bradford and Keenum. Holy Frak.... I know you guys are into using coupons, but sometimes you are better off spending money for the better product than shopping on the bottom shelf. I'm all for discounts at the right position, but hoping to get "bradford, Keenum, or RGIII" just made me want to puke him my mouth. We would be the laughing stock of the NFL for doing that after a Super Bowl run, no matter how the turnout of that game.
If it came down to that I suspect we'd take Yates over Keenum (though Kubiak did reportedly really like Keenum even when he already had Yates, but maybe he just didn't want to put all his eggs in one basket.) My main point was that our options are more than "Oz or Bust," certainly over the next 2-3 years. Who knows what kind of rookies and FAs will come along in the next 2-3 offseasons.

Everyone wants to find their franchise QB sooner than later, and especially new coaches, so I expect Kubiak will. And since Oz DOES fit the system and is still young and inexperienced enough Kubiak can groom him without having to first undo the damage done by bad coaches and bad playing experiences, I expect Oz will end up being that guy. He might play himself out of the job over the next year or two, but it'll be his to lose and we (and Kubiak) must just hope he doesn't.

It doesn't HAVE to be that way though. If Oz' price is too high or he's too miffed at getting benched again (in a SB year) after his interminable wait for Mannings retirement finally appeared over, or for WHATEVER reason, it won't force us to close up shop and tell all the remaining players to get real jobs. It might be a bumpy 2016, but that's better than a bumpy 2016-2018 because we overpaid for a QB who busted and can't afford the cap hit to dump him and seek someone better.

[Northman]

Bottom line for me is pay this defense. They've earned it. John will figure out the QB situation. No way John will have some scrub playing QB for Denver.

Ill play QB.

[Northman]

If it came down to that I suspect we'd take Yates over Keenum (though Kubiak did reportedly really like Keenum even when he already had Yates, but maybe he just didn't want to put all his eggs in one basket.) My main point was that our options are more than "Oz or Bust," certainly over the next 2-3 years. Who knows what kind of rookies and FAs will come along in the next 2-3 offseasons.

Everyone wants to find their franchise QB sooner than later, and especially new coaches, so I expect Kubiak will. And since Oz DOES fit the system and is still young and inexperienced enough Kubiak can groom him without having to first undo the damage done by bad coaches and bad playing experiences, I expect Oz will end up being that guy. He might play himself out of the job over the next year or two, but it'll be his to lose and we (and Kubiak) must just hope he doesn't.

It doesn't HAVE to be that way though. If Oz' price is too high or he's too miffed at getting benched again (in a SB year) after his interminable wait for Mannings retirement finally appeared over, or for WHATEVER reason, it won't force us to close up shop and tell all the remaining players to get real jobs. It might be a bumpy 2016, but that's better than a bumpy 2016-2018 because we overpaid for a QB who busted and can't afford the cap hit to dump him and seek someone better.

I would take Yates over those guys as well.

[weazel]

my only question is how long until he is out of the program?

[Slick]

my only question is how long until he is out of the program?

You sob.

[TXBRONC]

And you've completely lost your mind if you think Oz can be had for 10-12 million. Think teams with a bunch of cap room like the Browns, Texans, Eagles and Rams wont be interested? And I'm not saying we WONT re-sign him...I'm just saying there has to be a contingency plan because we WONT be his only suitor and funds might be a little tight.

Try to follow along a little closer.

Agreed, $10 to $12 million is low to say the least. If Elway can get him to sign for just under $20 million per year he'll be doing great. I sure he has back up plan in case Osweiler can't be re-signed.

[Ravage!!!]

Agreed, $10 to $12 million is low to say the least. If Elway can get him to sign for just under $20 million per year he'll be doing great. I sure he has back up plan in case Osweiler can't be re-signed.

Well, I think you are only the other side of the "too far" coin. I mean, 10-12 is too little, but 20 is too high, imo. But then, at the same time, I'm betting Oz gets to test the market to find out EXACTLy where it lies before we make an offer. I could be wrong there, Elway has been known to make a fair offer and if the player doesn't accept and wants to test the market, he lets them go. I can't see us doing that with our QB, but...

[Joel]

Yeah, $20 million would tie him with Brees for the 3rd most cash next year: Only Rivers and Newton make more. If we're talking just salary it's more than ANYONE'S getting next year. Even if we could afford that, it'd actually be cheaper to tag him and give the difference to Miller, who's done FAR more to earn it.

[tomjonesrocks]

Bottom line for me is pay this defense. They've earned it. John will figure out the QB situation. No way John will have some scrub playing QB for Denver.

The more I think about this Brock situation the more I think it's a bad deal. He might turn out OK but you're not if you're paying a guy who hasn't proven anything like an established starter.

[Joel]

The more I think about this Brock situation the more I think it's a bad deal. He might turn out OK but you're not if you're paying a guy who hasn't proven anything like an established starter.
That's why I want the tag. That kind of long term investment for a guy like Von Miller makes sense: It's the ONLY way you'll keep on the team, since EVERYONE knows he's worth it and would gladly pay it, but YOU know that, too, so the big investment's solid. Unless (heaven forbid) he has some major injury, you'll get a much bigger return. With a 4th year QB who's only had 6 up and down starts though... who knows...?

Only thing you know for sure is that if you sink the same kind of money into him for the same kind of time, you're stuck: He'll want a big chunk of it as a bonus so you can't just walk away in 2017 if he bombs, so if you give it to him and he DOES bomb—you can't just walk away in 2017. Thus the tag: It changes nothing but the timing of Von Millers contract, but it could make all the difference in what kind of contract (if any) we finally give Oz.

[NightTerror218]

The more I think about this Brock situation the more I think it's a bad deal. He might turn out OK but you're not if you're paying a guy who hasn't proven anything like an established starter.

I trust our coaches. I think Philips can adapt a defense to who he has. The defense did not look much different with Marshall and travathan out early in the season.

Barrett was able to hold down wares spot in his absence.

As much as I want the defense unit to stay together I think having a hole at QB could hurt the team more. IMO draft and FA are thin for QBs. Which will make a push to keep Oz and his price could go up.

I doubt Oz will get a long term deal. Prove a 2-3 yr deal.

In Elway I trust.

[jlarsiii]

That's why I want the tag. That kind of long term investment for a guy like Von Miller makes sense: It's the ONLY way you'll keep on the team, since EVERYONE knows he's worth it and would gladly pay it, but YOU know that, too, so the big investment's solid. Unless (heaven forbid) he has some major injury, you'll get a much bigger return. With a 4th year QB who's only had 6 up and down starts though... who knows...?

Only thing you know for sure is that if you sink the same kind of money into him for the same kind of time, you're stuck: He'll want a big chunk of it as a bonus so you can't just walk away in 2017 if he bombs, so if you give it to him and he DOES bomb—you can't just walk away in 2017. Thus the tag: It changes nothing but the timing of Von Millers contract, but it could make all the difference in what kind of contract (if any) we finally give Oz.


I think Brock will get what amounts to a 2 year prove-it deal. I would bet both parties would be interested in going that route. You sign Brock to a 2 to 3 year deal at the mid level pay for a starting QB. Then after that time you will know what you have. Brock gets to stay in a system he knows with time to develop, and if he does well he is in a better negotiating position at the end of the contract. The team gets to see if he progresses or not without taking a huge cap hit.

If he does well they can then try to sign him to a longer deal. If he doesn't they will move on. It is win win.

They will not use the franchise tag on Brock. That is dumb...

[Northman]

I think Brock will get what amounts to a 2 year prove-it deal. I would bet both parties would be interested in going that route. You sign Brock to a 2 to 3 year deal at the mid level pay for a starting QB. Then after that time you will know what you have. Brock gets to stay in a system he knows with time to develop, and if he does well he is in a better negotiating position at the end of the contract. The team gets to see if he progresses or not without taking a huge cap hit.

If he does well they can then try to sign him to a longer deal. If he doesn't they will move on. It is win win.

They will not use the franchise tag on Brock. That is dumb...

That will be dependent on if Brock settles on a deal with mid level pay. Other teams will certainly pay him more money if they believe he can help their team.

[jlarsiii]

That will be dependent on if Brock settles on a deal with mid level pay. Other teams will certainly pay him more money if they believe he can help their team.

This is true, but lets look at it from his point of view. Does he take more money to go to a crappier team with all new coaches and schemes? Maybe. He could also take a fair deal to stay with familiar coaches and schemes on a team talented enough to challenge for the super bowl every year.

If he believes in his skill and talent then the money will eventually come. So based on that I would hope that he would choose to stay with a winning organization. I guess we will see if he does or not.

[Northman]

This is true, but lets look at it from his point of view. Does he take more money to go to a crappier team with all new coaches and schemes? Maybe. He could also take a fair deal to stay with familiar coaches and schemes on a team talented enough to challenge for the super bowl every year.

If he believes in his skill and talent then the money will eventually come. So based on that I would hope that he would choose to stay with a winning organization. I guess we will see if he does or not.

Agreed on all points. I think think he would be a dope to leave Denver.

[weazel]

I trust our coaches. I think Philips can adapt a defense to who he has. The defense did not look much different with Marshall and travathan out early in the season.

Barrett was able to hold down wares spot in his absence.

As much as I want the defense unit to stay together I think having a hole at QB could hurt the team more. IMO draft and FA are thin for QBs. Which will make a push to keep Oz and his price could go up.

I doubt Oz will get a long term deal. Prove a 2-3 yr deal.

In Elway I trust.

unless someone pries Philips away with a head coaching gig. It's happened before.

[NightTerror218]

unless someone pries Philips away with a head coaching gig. It's happened before.

He won't be a head coach again. He has said before he is not a good head coach. I believe this will be his last job. He talked about it after he was hired in preaeason. Not all great coordinators are good head coaches.

[NightTerror218]

That will be dependent on if Brock settles on a deal with mid level pay. Other teams will certainly pay him more money if they believe he can help their team.

I guess it depends on the deal and guarentees. A high guarenteed short term mid level starter pay might entice him to stay $10-15M. With understanding if he excels a bigger contract will come. Or take a lower guarenteed higher potential long term contract from a new team. Elway has been willing to front load contracts for long term contracts, Talib, ware, Ward were all very front end loaded so after 2-3 yrs of 5 yr contracts they can be cut with no cap or low hit.

[Slick]

I trust our coaches. I think Philips can adapt a defense to who he has. The defense did not look much different with Marshall and travathan out early in the season.

Barrett was able to hold down wares spot in his absence.

As much as I want the defense unit to stay together I think having a hole at QB could hurt the team more. IMO draft and FA are thin for QBs. Which will make a push to keep Oz and his price could go up.

I doubt Oz will get a long term deal. Prove a 2-3 yr deal.

In Elway I trust.

I want to keep Malik. He's my main concern after Von as far as the defense. They can replace Trevathan. Sign Von then Malik, then worry about Brock. Ray and Barrett can fill in for Ware if he goes.

[NightTerror218]

I want to keep Malik. He's my main concern after Von as far as the defense. They can replace Trevathan. Sign Von then Malik, then worry about Brock. Ray and Barrett can fill in for Ware if he goes.

Smith has done well in Malik place. Malik is good night doubt but he will not be with team. He wants Wolfe or better money. We have no room for that. Still need a QB.

[TXBRONC]

Well, I think you are only the other side of the "too far" coin. I mean, 10-12 is too little, but 20 is too high, imo. But then, at the same time, I'm betting Oz gets to test the market to find out EXACTLy where it lies before we make an offer. I could be wrong there, Elway has been known to make a fair offer and if the player doesn't accept and wants to test the market, he lets them go. I can't see us doing that with our QB, but...

Sure it's possible he gets to test the market but I think would that is indictor negotiations with Elway are either in bad shape or nonexsistent.

[NightTerror218]

UFA 2016
Hillman
Miller
Malik
Travathan
Bolden
Bruton

Keo
Mathis
V. Davis
Antonio smith
Norwood
Caldwell
Oz
Harris
Polumbus

RFA
McCray
Anderson
Marshall
McManus
Paradis
T. Davis
Brenner
Bush
Fowler

[VonDoom]

Smith has done well in Malik place. Malik is good night doubt but he will not be with team. He wants Wolfe or better money. We have no room for that. Still need a QB.

Malik was quoted on Twitter before saying something about if he plays well in this game, he'll get big money. Then the Eagles just extended Vinny Curry for five years, $47.25 million. Malik will get that and probably more. I don't think it will be from us.

[Northman]

UFA 2016
Miller
Malik
Travathan
Bruton


Antonio smith
Norwood
Oz
Harris
Polumbus

RFA
Anderson
Marshall
McManus
Paradis
Fowler


This is what i would concentrate on in terms of resigning players.

[TXBRONC]

Malik was quoted on Twitter before saying something about if he plays well in this game, he'll get big money. Then the Eagles just extended Vinny Curry for five years, $47.25 million. Malik will get that and probably more. I don't think it will be from us.

That's a given. There is no way he will get that kind of money from the Broncos.

[Yashahla17]

Maybe you should try your disappearing act again

You still mad pudgy? You need to get over it. Get some positivity going in life. A man disappeared for like two months and comes back and pudge still has a grudge lol.

[chazoe60]

You still mad pudgy? You need to get over it. Get some positivity going in life. A man disappeared for like two months and comes back and pudge still has a grudge lol.

Are you saying that you've been resurrected?

[Yashahla17]

Oh **** that.. Screw that idea. That's the worse suggestion yet. They had to completely limit his reads because he doesn't read. He doesn't have quickness, he has speed, and he's fragile as they come. Please please please..... lets avoid that COMPLETE disaster with the information that has been given ove rthe years. The kid doesn't have it. Avoid him at all costs.

He has all the talent in the world. Just hasn't had the brain to use it on the field. Dont make it seem like griffen just has nothing. What shanahans turned him into was the exact opposite of what he was at. Baylor which was a great POCKET PASSER who could take off and run. You dont need to be shifty and quick when theres a lane and you can hit it running 4.3

[Yashahla17]

I think Brock will get what amounts to a 2 year prove-it deal. I would bet both parties would be interested in going that route. You sign Brock to a 2 to 3 year deal at the mid level pay for a starting QB. Then after that time you will know what you have. Brock gets to stay in a system he knows with time to develop, and if he does well he is in a better negotiating position at the end of the contract. The team gets to see if he progresses or not without taking a huge cap hit.

If he does well they can then try to sign him to a longer deal. If he doesn't they will move on. It is win win.

They will not use the franchise tag on Brock. That is dumb...

Brock will not sign a small two year prove it deal. When hes proved he can play just lacking experience. Without brock the Broncos aren't in the playoffs.

[Yashahla17]

I want to keep Malik. He's my main concern after Von as far as the defense. They can replace Trevathan. Sign Von then Malik, then worry about Brock. Ray and Barrett can fill in for Ware if he goes.

You can't just replace a top 5 linebacker like trevathan, when him and marshall was out our back up inside linebackers struggled.

[Yashahla17]

Are you saying that you've been resurrected?

If anything has resurrected its the madness of a couple. I thought it would go away with me leaving for awhile. Oh well though.

Anyway back to miller.

[SR]

If anything has resurrected its the madness of a couple. I thought it would go away with me leaving for awhile. Oh well though. Anyway back to miller.

If you don't think you're something and everyone thinks you are, then chances are you are what you don't think you are.

[Slick]

You can't just replace a top 5 linebacker like trevathan, when him and marshall was out our back up inside linebackers struggled.

You also can't just replace Malik Jackson. Denver struggled for a very, very long time to put together a defensive line like they have now. Malik very well may go, but I'd pay him before I paid Brock. He's a proven stud and Brock is still an unknown. I feel like an inside LB would be easier to replace than it would a defensive lineman of Malik's talent.

I'm not trying to predict what Denver's going to do, I'm stating my opinion of what I would do.

[CoachChaz]

You also can't just replace Malik Jackson. Denver struggled for a very, very long time to put together a defensive line like they have now. Malik very well may go, but I'd pay him before I paid Brock. He's a proven stud and Brock is still an unknown. I feel like an inside LB would be easier to replace than it would a defensive lineman of Malik's talent.

I'm not trying to predict what Denver's going to do, I'm stating my opinion of what I would do.

Best case scenario, I really think at least ONE of Trevathan/Marshall will be playing elsewhere next season...even if we DON'T re-sign Jackson.

[Slick]

Best case scenario, I really think at least ONE of Trevathan/Marshall will be playing elsewhere next season...even if we DON'T re-sign Jackson.

Probably so. It's going to be a bummer watching guys from this defense go elsewhere. They sure have been fun to watch.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

How can Paradis be a RFA? He was drafted in 14'.

I think we'll see Todd David and Marshall in the middle next year.

[Northman]

You also can't just replace Malik Jackson. Denver struggled for a very, very long time to put together a defensive line like they have now. Malik very well may go, but I'd pay him before I paid Brock. He's a proven stud and Brock is still an unknown. I feel like an inside LB would be easier to replace than it would a defensive lineman of Malik's talent.

I'm not trying to predict what Denver's going to do, I'm stating my opinion of what I would do.

Hmm, i dont know if i agree there. Finding a great LB (primarily a great inside LB) is not that easy in my opinion. Jackson has been good but i think he is easier to replace than Marshall at this point in time. I think we have enough talent on the Dline to withstand the loss of Malik as opposed to Marshall at LB.

[Slick]

Hmm, i dont know if i agree there. Finding a great LB (primarily a great inside LB) is not that easy in my opinion. Jackson has been good but i think he is easier to replace than Marshall at this point in time. I think we have enough talent on the Dline to withstand the loss of Malik as opposed to Marshall at LB.

Fair enough. I don't think Denver lets Marshall get away. Probably Trevathan.

I hate that we're talking about this before the big game but at least it helps us pass the time.

One thing we have to remember in regards to Von Miller. He's already making close to 10 million this year IIRC. Say he gets 19-20 a year next year. His salary goes up 10 million, so he won't eat up all the space that a retiring Manning gives them. If Ware goes, that's another 10. I think Denver could afford to keep Malik and one of Marshall and Trevathan and still be able to at least compete with offers for Brock if they want to.

If Denver could field a front 7 of Miller, Wolfe, Sly, Jackson, Barret/Ray, Marshall, and Davis/draft pick, they could be almost as lethal. (Ware certainly would be missed, he was great against NE) If they lose Jackson AND one of the inside backers as Coach suggested as a possibility, I think there's a much bigger drop off.

[dogfish]

even if we lose a couple of pieces, i don't see this D dropping off much. . . with our combination of cover corners and pass rushers, wade is good enough to fill in a part here or there. . . plus we have some promising talent waiting in the wings. . . with kenny anunike, darius kilgo, todd davis and zaire anderson, i think we can patch things up and keep rolling. . . and we'll have another draft and free agency period for JFE to do his thing-- he shown a knack for drafting defensive talent, plus finding useful free agents at the right price (antonio smith, darian stewart, vance walker, etc). . . we're going to have a nasty defense again next year, even if a couple guys do walk. . .

[Northman]

even if we lose a couple of pieces, i don't see this D dropping off much. . . with our combination of cover corners and pass rushers, wade is good enough to fill in a part here or there. . . plus we have some promising talent waiting in the wings. . . with kenny anunike, darius kilgo, todd davis and zaire anderson, i think we can patch things up and keep rolling. . . and we'll have another draft and free agency period for JFE to do his thing-- he shown a knack for drafting defensive talent, plus finding useful free agents at the right price (antonio smith, darian stewart, vance walker, etc). . . we're going to have a nasty defense again next year, even if a couple guys do walk. . .

Not to mention Wade. I dont think he will be going anywhere anytime soon so he will be able to keep the defense rolling.

[dogfish]

Not to mention Wade.

i did mention wade, first thing. . . :D

[underrated29]

Marshall is a RFA.....I doubt he goes anywhere. They love him! and they like Todd davis a lot! That means Trev would be the one gone if he does not want to give a decent homefield discount.

[NightTerror218]

Fair enough. I don't think Denver lets Marshall get away. Probably Trevathan.

I hate that we're talking about this before the big game but at least it helps us pass the time.

One thing we have to remember in regards to Von Miller. He's already making close to 10 million this year IIRC. Say he gets 19-20 a year next year. His salary goes up 10 million, so he won't eat up all the space that a retiring Manning gives them. If Ware goes, that's another 10. I think Denver could afford to keep Malik and one of Marshall and Trevathan and still be able to at least compete with offers for Brock if they want to.

If Denver could field a front 7 of Miller, Wolfe, Sly, Jackson, Barret/Ray, Marshall, and Davis/draft pick, they could be almost as lethal. (Ware certainly would be missed, he was great against NE) If they lose Jackson AND one of the inside backers as Coach suggested as a possibility, I think there's a much bigger drop off.

And are you willing to say bye to the rest of our FA then? Adios McManus. You will handcuff this team paying too many guys that kind of money. You just paid wolfe. You are spending a lot in the seconday. OLB make a lot.

No way the OL will be any good if you sign all the defensive players to give contracts and you will have enough to roll the dice with rookies to fill voids since you won't be able to all fjord any FA.

Face it Malik is gone. Elway said he can not pay both of them what they are asking. 10 million will keep 3/4 of our own FA. Allows us to put tenders on RFA.

Oz is a better know quantity then rolling dice on a 2nd day QB in draft. Oz did really well in 6 starts. Better then any rookie would have. He also did not turn ball over much like a rookie would do. That shows he has learned to not get confused by the defense.

[Slick]

And are you willing to say bye to the rest of our FA then? Adios McManus. You will handcuff this team paying too many guys that kind of money. You just paid wolfe. You are spending a lot in the seconday. OLB make a lot.

No way the OL will be any good if you sign all the defensive players to give contracts and you will have enough to roll the dice with rookies to fill voids since you won't be able to all fjord any FA.

Face it Malik is gone. Elway said he can not pay both of them what they are asking. 10 million will keep 3/4 of our own FA. Allows us to put tenders on RFA.

Oz is a better know quantity then rolling dice on a 2nd day QB in draft. Oz did really well in 6 starts. Better then any rookie would have. He also did not turn ball over much like a rookie would do. That shows he has learned to not get confused by the defense.

You wouldn't have to say bye to the rest of Denver's FA. That's ridiculous. Clady's contract? Evan Mathis is gone, Vernon Davis will be gone. Do you think Brock is worth 16 a year? If another team gets in on the bidding look out. Let's agree that we disagree. You value Brock more than I do. We can still be friends.

[NightTerror218]

You wouldn't have to say bye to the rest of Denver's FA. That's ridiculous. Clady's contract? Evan Mathis is gone, Vernon Davis will be gone. Do you think Brock is worth 16 a year? If another team gets in on the bidding look out. Let's agree that we disagree. You value Brock more than I do. We can still be friends.

Love you too slick

[VonDoom]

Sounds like Trevathan is coming to terms with the fact that he might be gone next year:

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 18m18 minutes ago

Broncos ILB Danny Trevathan said he believes former coach John Fox, Bears will be FA suitors. "I’m sure we’ll end up talking."

[NightTerror218]

Sounds like Trevathan is coming to terms with the fact that he might be gone next year:

Nicki Jhabvala &rlm;@NickiJhabvala 18m18 minutes ago

Broncos ILB Danny Trevathan said he believes former coach John Fox, Bears will be FA suitors. "I&rsquo;m sure we&rsquo;ll end up talking."

He was a gem for a late round pick. Hope Elways can still find more of them down the road. We need solid draft pick starters to contribute so we do not need to spend in FA all the time.

[TXBRONC]

even if we lose a couple of pieces, i don't see this D dropping off much. . . with our combination of cover corners and pass rushers, wade is good enough to fill in a part here or there. . . plus we have some promising talent waiting in the wings. . . with kenny anunike, darius kilgo, todd davis and zaire anderson, i think we can patch things up and keep rolling. . . and we'll have another draft and free agency period for JFE to do his thing-- he shown a knack for drafting defensive talent, plus finding useful free agents at the right price (antonio smith, darian stewart, vance walker, etc). . . we're going to have a nasty defense again next year, even if a couple guys do walk. . .

It's a big but of Anunike is actually as talented as we hear is then he'll better than Jackson. Before he was injured he was doing as well Shaq Barrett as a pass rusher.

[TXBRONC]

You wouldn't have to say bye to the rest of Denver's FA. That's ridiculous. Clady's contract? Evan Mathis is gone, Vernon Davis will be gone. Do you think Brock is worth 16 a year? If another team gets in on the bidding look out. Let's agree that we disagree. You value Brock more than I do. We can still be friends.

Yes I think Osweiler is worth around $16 million. Given that quarterback is the most important position the field why go with complete unknown when you already have someone who has already shown he can be successful in this system.

[NightTerror218]

It's a big but of Anunike is actually as talented as we hear is then he'll better than Jackson. Before he was injured he was doing as well Shaq Barrett as a pass rusher.

We do have some solid young guys with potential and hard for them to see field with a very deep defense.

I said this before but Wolfe took over the DL when he came back. Malik got attention while wolfe was suspended but Wolfe came in making play and play. Wolfe is the better player IMO.

[weazel]

Yes I think Osweiler is worth around $16 million. Given that quarterback is the most important position the field why go with complete unknown when you already have someone who has already shown he can be successful in this system.

I think Os should start Sunday :couch:

[Joel]

I think Brock will get what amounts to a 2 year prove-it deal. I would bet both parties would be interested in going that route. You sign Brock to a 2 to 3 year deal at the mid level pay for a starting QB. Then after that time you will know what you have. Brock gets to stay in a system he knows with time to develop, and if he does well he is in a better negotiating position at the end of the contract. The team gets to see if he progresses or not without taking a huge cap hit.

If he does well they can then try to sign him to a longer deal. If he doesn't they will move on. It is win win.

They will not use the franchise tag on Brock. That is dumb...
That wouldn't upset me, though I can't speak for Oz' agent. But if we give him, say, $12-15 mil/yr for 2 years with a $20 mil bonus, how's that different from a tag? Answer: It costs $3-6 mil/yr MORE for twice as long. In fact, the more I think about that the less I like it: It gives us less security against Oz bombing (because we'd be stuck with him twice as long) AND against him balling (because we'd have to immediately do a big extension, or wait for 2017 prices on a franchise QB.)

[Joel]

Smith has done well in Malik place. Malik is good night doubt but he will not be with team. He wants Wolfe or better money. We have no room for that. Still need a QB.
Smith has done well in Jacksons place, but is no long term solution: He's an UFA who turns 35 a month after Opening Day; if we win the SB he may even retire.


You can't just replace a top 5 linebacker like trevathan, when him and marshall was out our back up inside linebackers struggled.
That's true; it was as big as our pass rushs decline when Ware was hurt and everyone could just double Miller. Good Ds (or offenses) are UNITS, not just a few studs.


Best case scenario, I really think at least ONE of Trevathan/Marshall will be playing elsewhere next season...even if we DON'T re-sign Jackson.
That's probably a safe bet, and Marshall's been a better all around LB, plus he's a RFA instead of UFA, so we need only match other offers, not beat them.


It's a big but of Anunike is actually as talented as we hear is then he'll better than Jackson. Before he was injured he was doing as well Shaq Barrett as a pass rusher.
Anunike bulked up a lot (~25 lbs. IIRC) last offseason just to reach 275, fine for a 4-3 DE, but still undersized for a 3-4 DE. He was a tweener pass rush specialist out of college, not 3-4 DE material. That's even before considering his injury history, which is also bad for a starter with his hand in the dirt.

[Hawgdriver]

Dear Joel.,

[ShaneFalco]

how in the world is oz worth beyond 10m per year?



Talk about overpaying. Brady gets paid 16m?

[Joel]

how in the world is oz worth beyond 10m per year?

Talk about overpaying. Brady gets paid 16m?
Brady actually has a pretty small contract, by QB standards: $51 mil over 3 years, $24 mil upfront (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/tom-brady/). Guess HE knows he's a system QB, too. ;)

[ShaneFalco]

yea i would give OZ half that.

He is decent, and can stand in and win a few games. But do people actually think he is worth paying anything close to one of the greatest Qbs?

[Davii]

yea i would give OZ half that.

He is decent, and can stand in and win a few games. But do people actually think he is worth paying anything close to one of the greatest Qbs?

If you give Oz half that he'll be playing elsewhere.

[ShaneFalco]

then let him play elsewhere.

Bring Tebow back at 1m per year and keep all defensive players. :)

[Joel]

yea i would give OZ half that.

He is decent, and can stand in and win a few games. But do people actually think he is worth paying anything close to one of the greatest Qbs?
Again: Bradys contract is a bad comparison, because the MAJORITY of 2016 starters make more (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cap-hit/quarterback/). None of them signed in 2016 either, and top player salaries are a lot of hot air in another way: They expand to fill the space available. If Oz demands starter money, it's likely to be every penny of $15 million.

Thing is: The more Oz demands next year, the less reason there is to not tag him. The difference between a $19 million tag and $15 million salary (especially with a pro-rated signing bonus added in) isn't much: Is it more than the savings and security of locking up Von Miller before prices rise in 2017 AND being able to dump Oz if he bombs? Long term team viability's about FLEXIBLITY; how much is that worth?

[ShaneFalco]

that is crazy. Let someone else take the risk then.

[Joel]

that is crazy. Let someone else take the risk then.
Well, we DO need a post-Manning franchise QB, and Oz has shown us more than anyone else currently on offer. If the price isn't outrageous, it's worth at least giving him a shot next year, which is why I advocate a tag, even when it means $19 million: If he's legit, he'll be worth that and the ensuing long contract; if not, we get out free and clear, then scan the 2017 draft class (probably with the advantage of a bad records early picks) and FA pool. And have Von Miller locked up regardless.

[Northman]

then let him play elsewhere.

Bring Tebow back at 1m per year and keep all defensive players. :)

Tebow is not worth 1m.

[TXBRONC]

We do have some solid young guys with potential and hard for them to see field with a very deep defense.

I said this before but Wolfe took over the DL when he came back. Malik got attention while wolfe was suspended but Wolfe came in making play and play. Wolfe is the better player IMO.

Yeah I thought Wolfe would take a game or two to get up to speed but instead from the first game he was back he went gang busters. I've also said that Wolfe is the better player. In four less games he and Jackson basically had the same amount of sacks. In fact, he had a half a sack more. I wouldn't if Denver was able keep Jackson but not that expense of kicking Osweiler to the curb.

[TXBRONC]

Tebow is not worth 1m.

He might be as pitch man for Oxy-Clean.

[weazel]

then let him play elsewhere.

Bring Tebow back at 1m per year and keep all defensive players. :)

knew that was coming

[Ravage!!!]

Yeah I thought Wolfe would take a game or two to get up to speed but instead from the first game he was back he went gang busters. I've also said that Wolfe is the better player. In four less games he and Jackson basically had the same amount of sacks. In fact, he had a half a sack more. I wouldn't if Denver was able keep Jackson but not that expense of kicking Osweiler to the curb.

But Wolfe is able to excel because of the presence of Jackson. Jackson showed just how much of a beast he is this year,and against NE, he was instrumental to Brady getting his ass handed to him. I think we should do EVERYTHING we can to keep Jackson. If that means losing Marshall, then so be it. Jackson is the harder position to fill with a quality player.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

But Wolfe is able to excel because of the presence of Jackson. Jackson showed just how much of a beast he is this year,and against NE, he was instrumental to Brady getting his ass handed to him. I think we should do EVERYTHING we can to keep Jackson. If that means losing Marshall, then so be it. Jackson is the harder position to fill with a quality player.

Marshall is a RFA. It will probably only cost 2.5m to keep him next year.

[jlarsiii]

That wouldn't upset me, though I can't speak for Oz' agent. But if we give him, say, $12-15 mil/yr for 2 years with a $20 mil bonus, how's that different from a tag? Answer: It costs $3-6 mil/yr MORE for twice as long. In fact, the more I think about that the less I like it: It gives us less security against Oz bombing (because we'd be stuck with him twice as long) AND against him balling (because we'd have to immediately do a big extension, or wait for 2017 prices on a franchise QB.)

First of all, your numbers are off. Using your example if we paid him 15m per season for a total of 30 that is not going to come with a 20m guaranteed amount. Contracts rarely guarantee more then half. Second, this front office does a good job of front loading the bonus money so in the very unlikely event that they would be done with Brock after one season they wouldn't take that big of a financial hit to cut him.

What really amazes me is that to you it is a foregone conclusion that he will be done after one year as a starter. He showed promise in his starts this year. It would be a shocking development for the team to give up on him that quickly. That is at least part of the reason why using the franchise tag on him is a bad idea. If he plays the same and shows some improvement he will have all of the leverage to demand a huge contract the following off season. That would be the real risk because he could level out in his development in the second or third year under a huge contract and then we would be saddled with an albatross of dead money.

Another reason that using the tag on him would be bad is because players want some type of security (the guaranteed part of the contract). You make him play under the tag without negotiating a longer deal will drive him away the following season. I believe he showed a lot of potential which is worth exploring for the next 2 to 3 years. We aren't going to get that from him if we tag him this year. Why would we expect him to show loyalty to the Broncos if they don't show it to him first?

[NightTerror218]

I like how people throw around random number but I would like to focus on guarentees for a second.

Oz could sign a contract worth $15-$20m a season but on worst case scenario 50% is guaranteed. So half of that salary would be a cap hit. Look at many of the players with $2M work out bonus if on roster, $2M if pro bowl. It all adds up.

Give me an Oz contract that is 3 years $45M with $20m guarenteed I would take it. Average is $15M a season. But say $9 mill signing bonus and a salary of $7 M in yr one and and yr 2 would make yr 3 optional With $3M cap hit if cut. Elway has been a master of these contracts and always work out well for the team. I would think yr 1 would be almost all guarenteed to use up his guarentees and leave the team options to resign and extend longer and give Oz potential for huge contract.

Give Oz the tag that means other teams can chase Von and overpay like Miami likes to do. If no agreement and pay Oz $19m fully guaranteed.

Or tag Von and work on oz. In long run I rather keep von and take chance on Oz signing elsewhere.

[Joel]

Maybe he is, and that'd be great, but it's more than likely he's not, and we must be prepared for that—financially as well as emotionally.


First of all, your numbers are off. Using your example if we paid him 15m per season for a total of 30 that is not going to come with a 20m guaranteed amount. Contracts rarely guarantee more then half. Second, this front office does a good job of front loading the bonus money so in the very unlikely event that they would be done with Brock after one season they wouldn't take that big of a financial hit to cut him.
$12-15 mil/yr for 2 years with a $20 mil BONUS isn't a total of 30: It's 44-50. And we may front load other bonuses, but signing bonuses are pro-rated over the contracts life; on a 2 yr deal that would just mean a $22-25 mil cap hit two years running. Now, if we're talking about, say, $15 mil for 2 yrs with $15 up front, that's different; then if Oz bombs we could dump him in 2017 for "only" $7-8 mil in dead money.


What really amazes me is that to you it is a foregone conclusion that he will be done after one year as a starter. He showed promise in his starts this year. It would be a shocking development for the team to give up on him that quickly. That is at least part of the reason why using the franchise tag on him is a bad idea. If he plays the same and shows some improvement he will have all of the leverage to demand a huge contract the following off season. That would be the real risk because he could level out in his development in the second or third year under a huge contract and then we would be saddled with an albatross of dead money.
I don't think he'll be "done" after a single year in the sense of "career finished," but do think he'll be "done" in the sense of "largely developed into the QB he'll always be, however good/bad that is." We'll know what we've got then, but CAN'T right now. If his next 16 starts are good enough to earn a long contract, "leveling out" from THERE wouldn't be a disaster that stuck us with an albatross of dead money.

Giving him, say $25 mil+$20 mil bonus NOW very well COULD leave us with that albatross though: In the VERY LIKELY event he bombs we'll have NO franchise QB, but STILL have a $20+ mil cap hit in 2017, and even if we cut him we'd have $10 mil in dead money. If it's a THREE year contract, double that dead money: $20 mil in dead money and NO starting QB is precisely the albatross I want to avoid.


Another reason that using the tag on him would be bad is because players want some type of security (the guaranteed part of the contract). You make him play under the tag without negotiating a longer deal will drive him away the following season. I believe he showed a lot of potential which is worth exploring for the next 2 to 3 years. We aren't going to get that from him if we tag him this year. Why would we expect him to show loyalty to the Broncos if they don't show it to him first?
How much are you thinking of guaranteeing him? Take that $30 mil, 2 year contract with half up front: That's $15 mil guaranteed, plus next years salary makes $22-23 mil; with a smaller contract we're probably talking something like $25 with half up front~$19 million: THAT'S THE SAME GUARANTEE AS THE TAG!

Why is the SAME $19 million guarantee insulting AND rewarding? The only difference is the 2 year contract reduces our 2016 cap hit by $6 million, but adds $6 million in 2017 dead money if we cut him. From that perspective, it'd be "pay me $6 million nor or later unless he's legit" so I wouldn't mind, but to suggest a single year's the difference between the same money being an insult or honor doesn't make sense.

If Oz pans out, he'll be just like Von Miller: We'll KNOW we're keeping him AND that requires a big long contract, so the sooner we sign it the more money we save by beating future inflation. I just don't want to split the difference before we know WHAT we've got, when odds are it'll just mean eating a lot of dead 2017 money for a mediocre QB and still leave us with no legit starter. Because the odds are that's probably what Oz is; if he beats the odds, great, but we can't DEPEND on that.

[Joel]

I like how people throw around random number but I would like to focus on guarentees for a second.

Oz could sign a contract worth $15-$20m a season but on worst case scenario 50% is guaranteed. So half of that salary would be a cap hit. Look at many of the players with $2M work out bonus if on roster, $2M if pro bowl. It all adds up.

Give me an Oz contract that is 3 years $45M with $20m guarenteed I would take it. Average is $15M a season. But say $9 mill signing bonus and a salary of $7 M in yr one and and yr 2 would make yr 3 optional With $3M cap hit if cut. Elway has been a master of these contracts and always work out well for the team. I would think yr 1 would be almost all guarenteed to use up his guarentees and leave the team options to resign and extend longer and give Oz potential for huge contract.
If Oz isn't "the guy," we'll want and need out before year 3, but under that contract we couldn't GET out for <$10 mil in dead money. Probably much more, because the consensus (with which I agree) is that Oz knows his future's unknown and so won't take an incentive-laden "prove it" deal where he only gets paid if he makes the Pro Bowl, throws x TDs etc: The bulk of his guarantee will necessarily be a signing bonus, spread evenly over the contract so we eat 2/3 of it if we cut him in 2017.

That's why I want the tag: He still gets a NICE $19 mil "guarantee" because he gets it IMMEDIATELY, but we can do wtf we want in 2017 with NO dead money. And, again, if Oz IS "the guy" we can pay him what he's worth in 2017, and be glad to do it since we've found a franchise QB for the next DECADE.


Give Oz the tag that means other teams can chase Von and overpay like Miami likes to do. If no agreement and pay Oz $19m fully guaranteed.
They'll do that either way: The only question is whether they'll do it with the 2016 or 2017 cap. Guess which'll be bigger. If we tag Miller, he'll cost us even MORE in 2017 than he will now, and have FEWER quality years left in him. Tagging a known All Pro in his prime just LITERALLY "buys time:" It COSTS (a lot of) money.


Or tag Von and work on oz. In long run I rather keep von and take chance on Oz signing elsewhere.
Amen. We KNOW what we've got with Miller, which is why tagging him will only raise the price and lower the return; with Oz we're just... hoping....

[TXBRONC]

But Wolfe is able to excel because of the presence of Jackson. Jackson showed just how much of a beast he is this year,and against NE, he was instrumental to Brady getting his ass handed to him. I think we should do EVERYTHING we can to keep Jackson. If that means losing Marshall, then so be it. Jackson is the harder position to fill with a quality player.

I don't agree. It's easy to make a case that he excels because of Miller or Ware or both but not Jackson.

[GEM]

Language in the video's song is terrible so mute if you don't like cursing, but the video is pretty good stuff :D

tDr3qxLXYfY

[CoachChaz]

Personally, I think Elway made his decision already when he extended Wolfe and not Jackson.

[Cugel]

And are you willing to say bye to the rest of our FA then? Adios McManus. You will handcuff this team paying too many guys that kind of money. You just paid wolfe. You are spending a lot in the seconday. OLB make a lot.

No way the OL will be any good if you sign all the defensive players to give contracts and you will have enough to roll the dice with rookies to fill voids since you won't be able to all fjord any FA.

Face it Malik is gone. Elway said he can not pay both of them what they are asking. 10 million will keep 3/4 of our own FA. Allows us to put tenders on RFA.

Oz is a better know quantity then rolling dice on a 2nd day QB in draft. Oz did really well in 6 starts. Better then any rookie would have. He also did not turn ball over much like a rookie would do. That shows he has learned to not get confused by the defense.

This is mostly accurate. They will try and keep everybody, but it's just not realistic to think they will be able to sign 15 FAs. Since they already signed Derek Wolfe, that means they probably keep at most TWO of Trevathan, Marshall, and Jackson.

As for McManus, he's an exclusive rights FA which gives the Broncos the right to match any contract offer.

Brandon Marshall is restricted so he gets a first round tender and any team that signs him has to offer Denver a pick.

So, likely they would either keep Malik Jackson OR Danny Trevathan but not both, probably Jackson, except he would want close to $10 M. He might not get it though.

Derek Wolfe's cap hit is $4.5 M + $125k roster bonus + pro-rated signing bonus $7.5 M/ 4 years = 1.8M -- SO around $6.5 M cap hit.

IF they could re-sign Malik Jackson for something around this figure it would be doable.

The big problem will be rebuilding Denver's OL:

Evan Mathis will be 35 yrs. old next year and is a UFA making $4 M. I doubt he's back, but they have Max Garcia to start in his place. They would need a backup G though.

Ryan Clady is due $10 M, and will have to re-structure. Even at $5 M he's no bargain, but they screwed up and failed to make the Joe Thomas trade (his salary cap is amazingly reasonable), so this might be a necessity.

Matt Paradis is an exclusive rights FA. If the Broncos win, he will definitely draw some interest and might get a big contract offer (Zane Beadles did!). Denver will definitely want to low-ball him, but this could be another band-aid situation where they get some other cast-off scrub to replace him.

Unfortunately Michael Schofield is cheap and still under contract. He probably stays at $612k.

Louis Vasquez has 1 more year at $5.5 M.

Ryan Harris is a UFA and would obviously be a backup next season, so he's probably gone, but he only made $1.4 M so they might keep him around as a useful backup. But, probably some team will want a guy who started in the SB - unless he's just beaten like a gong the way Franklin and Clark were the last time.

HUGE problems for the Broncos are that they have a ton of FAs (including Vernon Davis, Ronnie Hillman and C.J. Anderson), and desperately need to upgrade their OL, but they won't have the cash to just go out in FA and sign a starting quality veteran T or something without sacrificing elsewhere.

They desperately need to upgrade the LT, RT and C positions, but Elway has been cheap as hell and refuses to spend money on his OL, so it might not happen. They are getting Sambrailo back next year but who knows if he is really any good?

Two years ago starting in the SB they had Chris Clark, Zane Beadles, Manny Ramirez, Vasquez and Orlando Franklin. Only Vasquez remains, which tells you what they thought of that bunch of losers. But the current group is at least as bad and maybe worse.

The one upside for next year is that Schofield probably won't be starting, and Ryan Clady and Sambrailo will. If Clady leaves they will look to find a starting RT somewhere in FA. If they pencil Schofield in as the starter however, I might just have to shoot myself.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't agree. It's easy to make a case that he excels because of Miller or Ware or both but not Jackson.

I think you are right in that, but now you are minimizing Jackson's skillset completely.

[Joel]

From that list: McManus, Marshall, restructure Clady to the stated $5 mil or wish him well, Paradis, probably Hillman whether I like it or not, and hopefully CJ. I'd like Davis if he's cheap, and since he was ALREADY cheap and did NOTHING to change that it seems possible; I'd be perfectly happy though if he prices himself out of our market by going off in the SB. When you break it down like that, it's really not horrible once Manning's $19 mil and half of Cladys $10 mil comes off the books.

We obviously still need to shore up the line, especially if Garcia can't improve his protection and Sambrailo doesn't develop to starting level by the end of camp. I think Stewart may be a FA, too, btw, but am not sure. But we should be able to do all that, a deal for Miller and tag Oz (or vice versa) and probably even keep Trevathan into the bargain. It's not the disaster some have made it out to be, or at least doesn't have to be.

[Cugel]

First of all, your numbers are off. Using your example if we paid him 15m per season for a total of 30 that is not going to come with a 20m guaranteed amount. Contracts rarely guarantee more then half. Second, this front office does a good job of front loading the bonus money so in the very unlikely event that they would be done with Brock after one season they wouldn't take that big of a financial hit to cut him.

What really amazes me is that to you it is a foregone conclusion that he will be done after one year as a starter. He showed promise in his starts this year. It would be a shocking development for the team to give up on him that quickly. That is at least part of the reason why using the franchise tag on him is a bad idea. If he plays the same and shows some improvement he will have all of the leverage to demand a huge contract the following off season. That would be the real risk because he could level out in his development in the second or third year under a huge contract and then we would be saddled with an albatross of dead money.

Another reason that using the tag on him would be bad is because players want some type of security (the guaranteed part of the contract). You make him play under the tag without negotiating a longer deal will drive him away the following season. I believe he showed a lot of potential which is worth exploring for the next 2 to 3 years. We aren't going to get that from him if we tag him this year. Why would we expect him to show loyalty to the Broncos if they don't show it to him first?

I would agree with all of this. You just don't force your franchise QB to play under a franchise tag contract, so franchising him would just be a temporary move during THIS off-season.

And it won't even be possible unless they manage to get Von Miller re-signed before the start of FA. And that can't happen unless Miller is willing to give up some of his negotiating leverage.

If I were Miller's agent I would tell him to wait and see what kind of offers come in and let Denver know and have an opportunity to match them or negotiate something similar. He might take less money to stay in Denver than he'd be offered elsewhere, but it's still going to be a TON of money.

If some team wants to pay Miller $22 M a year it's going to be very difficult for the Broncos, but Elway put himself in this position by failing to lock up Von Miller last off-season.

I think the decision not to re-sign Brock Osweiler earlier had more to do with uncertainty about whether Peyton Manning would play out his contract or not. They could have signed Brock for around $5 M a year prior to this season - which would be a total bargain right now.

But, if Manning was going to play another year, that wouldn't make sense. Since Manning is almost certainly gone, they are going to have to pay Brock somewhere around $12 M or more. It could conceivably be around $15 M if some desperate team wants to pay him that much.

After all, Matt Cassel started 10 games for the Pats in 2008 and got a $15 M a year contract from the Chiefs, who traded for him. Take a minute to let that sink in: Matt Cassel.

Moral: Desperate teams will do desperate things to find a QB even taking great chances, because it doesn't matter. If they blow it, the GM & coach will be fired anyway so it won't be their problem anymore, and if it works out, they didn't overpay. Win-win.

[Ravage!!!]

I think the decision not to re-sign Brock Osweiler earlier had more to do with uncertainty about whether Peyton Manning would play out his contract or not. They could have signed Brock for around $5 M a year prior to this season - which would be a total bargain right now.


This is dreaming. Why would Brock have signed for 5 million a year when he knew his contract was coming to an end and he would be able to go to a team needing a starting QB? Considering Manning's age and point of is career, the ONLY way he signs that contract is if there is a HUGE raise if he starts more than 6 games, and that bonus is 10million. Players aren't stupid, and their agents certainly aren't.

[Cugel]

From that list: McManus, Marshall, restructure Clady to the stated $5 mil or wish him well, Paradis, probably Hillman whether I like it or not, and hopefully CJ. I'd like Davis if he's cheap, and since he was ALREADY cheap and did NOTHING to change that it seems possible; I'd be perfectly happy though if he prices himself out of our market by going off in the SB. When you break it down like that, it's really not horrible once Manning's $19 mil and half of Cladys $10 mil comes off the books.

We obviously still need to shore up the line, especially if Garcia can't improve his protection and Sambrailo doesn't develop to starting level by the end of camp. I think Stewart may be a FA, too, btw, but am not sure. But we should be able to do all that, a deal for Miller and tag Oz (or vice versa) and probably even keep Trevathan into the bargain. It's not the disaster some have made it out to be, or at least doesn't have to be.

Darian Stewart is still under contract and is due $2 M next year.

There is no doubt they will keep Von Miller. The problem is timing. I doubt his agent will allow Miller to sign a contract prior to the start of FA, because their leverage will be more if he starts getting contract offers like Ndamukong Suh - 6 years, 114 M or something.

To prevent that the Broncos will have to franchise him, then negotiate something over the summer - in short just what they did with D.T. this off-season.

Manning's under contract for $19 M next year, and it will cost them $2 M to buy out the last year of his contract. But, it's not $17 M in savings, because they were never going to pay him anything like even the $15 M he got this year.

Remember that the salary cap isn't actually budgeted right now and won't be before they announce the new cap figure sometime this August. So, at this point the teams aren't under the cap for 2016, hence Manning's "savings" aren't real. In the unlikely event he came back they'd renegotiate him down below the $15 M he made this past year.

[SR]

Cugel you lost me when you said Denver "desperately needs to upgrade" the center position. Paradis has been solid this year and quietly been the best player on the line all year.

[Cugel]

This is dreaming. Why would Brock have signed for 5 million a year when he knew his contract was coming to an end and he would be able to go to a team needing a starting QB? Considering Manning's age and point of is career, the ONLY way he signs that contract is if there is a HUGE raise if he starts more than 6 games, and that bonus is 10million. Players aren't stupid, and their agents certainly aren't.

There was considerable discussion about this by NFL personnel people in the off-season, so it's not "dreaming."

Remember the facts:

#1 - Peyton had ZERO intention of allowing Brock to have 1 snap during any game this season. He got hurt, tried to play and couldn't and then they went to Brock.

So if Manning stayed healthy and was reasonably effective neither the Broncos nor anybody else would have paid $12-15 M a year to a QB with ZERO NFL starting experience.

His value would be totally speculative and all teams would have seen of him would be a few meaningless pre-season games, played mostly against guys who are installing drywall right now. You don't pay $10 M a year to a QB with no experience.

Now, however he's started 9 games and the team won 6 of them. There's a lot of film on him and it's pretty clear he's at least an average QB.

There are about 15 teams without even an average QB and probably 10-12 that might consider signing him as their starter.

As for Manning, if he'd had a good year in the Kubiak system, the Broncos would certainly want him back, and he would have considered playing out his contract. In 2014 before he got hurt, he said indignantly "of course" he anticipated playing out his contract. All that changed after he struggled and the team lost to the Colts and he had to re-consider.

After being sidelined for 9 games this year and throwing 17 picks, there's no way he's coming back.

[Cugel]

Cugel you lost me when you said Denver "desperately needs to upgrade" the center position. Paradis has been solid this year and quietly been the best player on the line all year.

Paradis is considered "light" for a C and teams have found they can bull-rush him right into the backfield. None of the Broncos OL consistently gets to the second level and all too often RBs are stuffed 2 yards in the backfield.

Can he beef up and improve his technique? I have no idea, but I want to see an upgrade at his position, definitely.

[SR]

Paradis is considered "light" for a C and teams have found they can bull-rush him right into the backfield. None of the Broncos OL consistently gets to the second level and all too often RBs are stuffed 2 yards in the backfield. Can he beef up and improve his technique? I have no idea, but I want to see an upgrade at his position, definitely.

He's a first year starter? How about develop him? Y'know, the whole draft your future thing?

[NightTerror218]

I always have to disagree with Cugel it is just what it is, maybe because of his occupation.

Paradis is staying in denver long term, 1st yr starting and has been solid. Bull Rushing have impacted him but that is coachable. Centers are always the smallest OL.

Another notes Miller will most likely fall in line with other big names like Watt and sign a contract before FA. He could enjoy a bidding war but he is classier then that. He will sit with Elway and work out a deal right after SB. That is guarenteed what Elway will do.

From there he will prob start to work up offers for other big name FA they wish to keep. Oz will prob be the next contract he is direct contact with.

Elway always seems to make offers to FA before FA starts and if they do not work with him or sign then he let's them walk. But I think you will see him start to sign him own FA more often then looking for big name FA.

With Clady willing to redo contract and Sambrailo coming back as well. Big boost to OL. I expect to see a DE/OL in first 2 rounds unless a player rated high drops like Ray.

[Ravage!!!]

There was considerable discussion about this by NFL personnel people in the off-season, so it's not "dreaming."
By whom, message board posters? I would bet my life that there wasn't a single SERIOUS discussion about this with anyone that actually was in the know, and/or had anything that actually had to do with the Broncos or Brock.

It's absolutely absurd, and Brock would have been stupid to sign that contract. He could/would get that nearly anywhere, WHILE having a chance to compete for a starting job. As I said, he could/would sign a contract that would BUMP his salary to starting rate if/when he would win the starting job at said location.


Remember the facts:
I read your 'facts' and "speculations" (that you are calling facts)...and NONE point to you being accurate on your believing that would could have signed Brock to an extension for 5 million a year when he would be the starter. None. It's hope and dreams and the "if we only could have" thinking that derives from deals done on Madden football games.

[Cugel]

By whom, message board posters? I would bet my life that there wasn't a single SERIOUS discussion about this with anyone that actually was in the know, and/or had anything that actually had to do with the Broncos or Brock.

It's absolutely absurd, and Brock would have been stupid to sign that contract. He could/would get that nearly anywhere, WHILE having a chance to compete for a starting job. As I said, he could/would sign a contract that would BUMP his salary to starting rate if/when he would win the starting job at said location.

I read your 'facts' and "speculations" (that you are calling facts)...and NONE point to you being accurate on your believing that would could have signed Brock to an extension for 5 million a year when he would be the starter. None. It's hope and dreams and the "if we only could have" thinking that derives from deals done on Madden football games.

Don't be ridiculous. All this was discussed ENDLESSLY, for tens of hours on sports talk radio this past summer. For months. Interviews with GMs from other teams mostly like Bill Polian, but also former agents, etc.

Brock AFTER he has proven himself is NOT like Brock with ZERO NFL starts.

I have no idea why this is so hard for you to grasp. They didn't offer him a contract. There were no negotiations. To say he'd be stupid to sign?

This just shows you know nothing about agency. What the player risks if he refuses to negotiate is normally the possibility he may be injured in his final season and lose his bargaining position.

But, proven results (game film) is what determines value. How would Brock Osweiler's position improve if he never took the field?

As an NFL GM are you going to commit $10 M a year to a guy with ZERO starts? How are you supposed to gauge his ability? You're going to commit your organization to sign a guy completely unproven and give him a multi-year guaranteed contract for $20+ million?

Now THAT would be insane! :lol:

He might not have signed, but he certainly wouldn't get a much better contract anywhere else because he had proven nothing.

NOW he will of course. Now, he's getting over $10-12 M a year and may well command a large signing bonus as well. No surprise there. He proved himself on the field.

[Cugel]

He's a first year starter? How about develop him? Y'know, the whole draft your future thing?

I won't be at all surprised if they keep Paradis or even start him next year.

I wanted them to sign a really GOOD RT in FA this past winter and it didn't happen.

So, you could easily be right.