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View Full Version : Deion Sanders, defender of the CLASSLESS!



BronColt
01-11-2016, 04:35 PM
The moment that Bengals Steelers game ended, Deion Sanders has been defending the hit that took out Antonio Brown. Every time he gets facetime he's dissecting every way that Burfict had no control over that complete and obviously intentional hit on Antonio Brown.

If you've noticed in the past, Sanders has been the defense attorney in the public eye of the classless, unsportsman-like and the dirty. Every time a player is criticized for intentionally playing dirty, Sanders is right there running to their side.

I guess even the most class-less dirtiest pieces of S*** need someone to speak out for them too. Takes one to know one.

Keep it classy Deion you POS!

BronColt
01-11-2016, 04:38 PM
I hope Brown DOES play because our D needs to be sharp and on point for the AFC Championship game. I don't ever want this win to have an asterisk, as in we only won because the Steelers were injured.

BRING EM ON FULL FORCE, BRONCOS STILL WIN!!!

BronColt
01-11-2016, 04:39 PM
8249

GEM
01-11-2016, 05:02 PM
The moment that Bengals Steelers game ended, Deion Sanders has been defending the hit that took out Antonio Brown. Every time he gets facetime he's dissecting every way that Burfict had no control over that complete and obviously intentional hit on Antonio Brown.

If you've noticed in the past, Sanders has been the defense attorney in the public eye of the classless, unsportsman-like and the dirty. Every time a player is criticized for intentionally playing dirty, Sanders is right there running to their side.

I guess even the most class-less dirtiest pieces of S*** need someone to speak out for them too. Takes one to know one.

Keep it classy Deion you POS!

:whistle: It didn't take out Brown....the mofo was smiling walking off with the staff and partying in the locker room with his teammates. He's PLAYING POSSUM!!

Dzone
01-11-2016, 05:03 PM
Yep, the Bengals chose talent over character and this is the result. Maybe Burfict wasnt such a steal after all
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-news/4690838-bengals-steelers-burfict-pacman-jones-marvin-lewis-fallout

BronColt
01-11-2016, 05:25 PM
:whistle: It didn't take out Brown....the mofo was smiling walking off with the staff and partying in the locker room with his teammates. He's PLAYING POSSUM!!

You might be right!!

Adam Jones: 'Antonio Brown was not hurt. I know he was faking'

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14548113/adam-jones-cincinnati-bengals-says-antonio-brown-pittsburgh-steelers-was-faking-winked-him

All sorts of POSSUM being PLAYED in this game!!

SR
01-11-2016, 05:29 PM
Yep, the Bengals chose talent over character and this is the result. Maybe Burfict wasnt such a steal after all http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-news/4690838-bengals-steelers-burfict-pacman-jones-marvin-lewis-fallout

I've always been a proponent of Burfict. He's a hell of an athlete and plays like an animal when he's got his head on straight, but this type of behavior makes him hard to defend. I think he's coachable and I think he can turn that stuff around, but it's hard to keep being in his corner for sure.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-11-2016, 05:36 PM
I've watched the hit 20 times. He's a 255 pound man who stuck his shoulder into Browns helmet. That was not a 'glancing blow' in any way. Just because he was smiling doesn't mean he was faking anything.

Poet
01-11-2016, 05:36 PM
I disagree with Sanders. But his points about how the rules work aren't illegitimate. The reality of the situation is that if it was another defender, they might not have thrown the flag. The reality is that the ways the rules are set up, lowering your body can be just as brutal -that's what the league advocates for- and while we suspect that Burfict didn't give a damn about Brown having the ball, he could not have known.

You can use the rules to hurt someone. Shazier did it, even though it was a clear defenseless receiver situation, and far more obvious than the first DR call that Pitt got. Yet you don't seem to care about that. Using the rules to hurt someone is in evidence from another Burfict play; that sack on Big Ben was brutal, designed to cause injury, and legal. You don't seem to care about that, either. But you do seem to care about this instance, and technically speaking, since Burfict didn't helmet-to-helmet Brown, and he did pull up a bit, this will be one of the appeals that he makes that he wins.

They will always throw that flag when a WR gets hit highish and falls to the ground like that. You can't review it, it's a bang-bang play, and it is what it is. Yet by the letter of the law Burfict might not have committed a penalty. He shouldn't have done it because he knew the refs were looking to squash anything (presumably until Porter was given a pass) and he was being an idiot for it. He should have been flagged, and he should have known that if he wanted a huge hit, and he's entitled to wanting that, he should have just aimed at thigh and knee areas. Give Brown the same treatment Eifert, Gronk, Kelce, and every other hulking TE gets. There's no flags there.

And I've said for YEARS on THIS site that Burfict is dirty.

BronColt
01-11-2016, 05:48 PM
I disagree with Sanders. But his points about how the rules work aren't illegitimate. The reality of the situation is that if it was another defender, they might not have thrown the flag. The reality is that the ways the rules are set up, lowering your body can be just as brutal -that's what the league advocates for- and while we suspect that Burfict didn't give a damn about Brown having the ball, he could not have known.

You can use the rules to hurt someone. Shazier did it, even though it was a clear defenseless receiver situation, and far more obvious than the first DR call that Pitt got. Yet you don't seem to care about that. Using the rules to hurt someone is in evidence from another Burfict play; that sack on Big Ben was brutal, designed to cause injury, and legal. You don't seem to care about that, either. But you do seem to care about this instance, and technically speaking, since Burfict didn't helmet-to-helmet Brown, and he did pull up a bit, this will be one of the appeals that he makes that he wins.

They will always throw that flag when a WR gets hit highish and falls to the ground like that. You can't review it, it's a bang-bang play, and it is what it is. Yet by the letter of the law Burfict might not have committed a penalty. He shouldn't have done it because he knew the refs were looking to squash anything (presumably until Porter was given a pass) and he was being an idiot for it. He should have been flagged, and he should have known that if he wanted a huge hit, and he's entitled to wanting that, he should have just aimed at thigh and knee areas. Give Brown the same treatment Eifert, Gronk, Kelce, and every other hulking TE gets. There's no flags there.

And I've said for YEARS on THIS site that Burfict is dirty.

Here's the hit in slow mo -

https://t.co/O6YyO5p7oK

Dirty as hell!

Poet
01-11-2016, 05:50 PM
Your analysis is a sparkling display of human intellect.

Foochacho
01-11-2016, 05:56 PM
I used to love steve atwater for those same type of hits. Good job Burfict keep playing football like football should be played.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-11-2016, 06:02 PM
I used to love steve atwater for those same type of hits. Good job Burfict keep playing football like football should be played.

So, you're a big fan of Jack Tatum?

Foochacho
01-11-2016, 06:04 PM
Here's the hit in slow mo -

https://t.co/O6YyO5p7oK

Dirty as hell!

Nothing dirty about it. If brown catches that ball how else you gonna knock it back out? The man was playing to win. He led with his shoulder not head. He cant tell where browns head will end up on his way down. He was just trying to rock that ball out. Exactly what I would want our linebackers and safeties to do.

Foochacho
01-11-2016, 06:07 PM
So, you're a big fan of Jack Tatum?

Gotta love any big hitters but he was out of the league before i was even born can't claim to be a fan. Plus the whole raider thing.

Slick
01-11-2016, 06:12 PM
I've watched the hit 20 times. He's a 255 pound man who stuck his shoulder into Browns helmet. That was not a 'glancing blow' in any way. Just because he was smiling doesn't mean he was faking anything.

See I watch that and it looks like a glancing blow to me. I don't think it was a dirty hit either. I'm not saying Brown was faking it. I think he was legitimately hurt. I just don't think it was as bad as some people are making it out to be.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 06:20 PM
Nothing dirty about it. If brown catches that ball how else you gonna knock it back out? The man was playing to win. He led with his shoulder not head. He cant tell where browns head will end up on his way down. He was just trying to rock that ball out. Exactly what I would want our linebackers and safeties to do.

As the rule is written that is most definitely a foul. A common misconception is that the defender has to hit with his head for it to be illegal. That's not the case. Any forcible contact to the head and neck area of a defenseless player is a foul. That can be with the helmet, hand, shoulder, forearm, etc. You can disagree with the rule (I don't), but as written, the officials made the correct call.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-11-2016, 06:23 PM
See I watch that and it looks like a glancing blow to me. I don't think it was a dirty hit either. I'm not saying Brown was faking it. I think he was legitimately hurt. I just don't think it was as bad as some people are making it out to be.

I don't know if it was dirty or not, but it definitely should have been a penalty. He may have been putting his shoulder where he thought the ball was going to be.

Foochacho
01-11-2016, 06:24 PM
Yes i just hate the rule as written. Brown is coming down hard to miss certain body parts when you are both moving

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-11-2016, 06:29 PM
Yes i just hate the rule as written. Brown is coming down hard to miss certain body parts when you are both moving
The NFL has to take protecting the brain and blows to the head seriously, if they don't they're a barbaric joke. Even if it was accidental it still needs to be flagged.

Poet
01-11-2016, 06:31 PM
As the rule is written that is most definitely a foul. A common misconception is that the defender has to hit with his head for it to be illegal. That's not the case. Any forcible contact to the head and neck area of a defenseless player is a foul. That can be with the helmet, hand, shoulder, forearm, etc. You can disagree with the rule (I don't), but as written, the officials made the correct call.

But the way the rule is enforced if he pulls up or gets lower it might not be flagged. It's far more important on the policy of the rules than the black letter law.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 07:25 PM
But the way the rule is enforced if he pulls up or gets lower it might not be flagged. It's far more important on the policy of the rules than the black letter law.

It's not a foul to hit him anywhere but in the head and neck area. I know it's tough on the defender, but they have to learn to go low.

Poet
01-11-2016, 07:42 PM
It's not a foul to hit him anywhere but in the head and neck area. I know it's tough on the defender, but they have to learn to go low.

I'm not disagreeing with you. By the letter of the law or the rule you are 100% correct; however I am speaking to the policy on the field, or how it is officiated. Let's say he stays on his first 'trajectory' and he keeps getting lower and still tags him. Often times it is not flagged. By the rules, it should be. But when I talk of football intelligence, I am speaking to players being cognizant of not just the rules, but their interpretations and implementations as well.

Does that make sense?

SR
01-11-2016, 07:44 PM
Nothing dirty about it. If brown catches that ball how else you gonna knock it back out? The man was playing to win. He led with his shoulder not head. He cant tell where browns head will end up on his way down. He was just trying to rock that ball out. Exactly what I would want our linebackers and safeties to do.

The ball was NOWHERE near Brown and Burfict had to take 4-5 steps BEFORE he made contact AFTER the bail sailed over their heads. That is dirty.

MOtorboat
01-11-2016, 07:46 PM
Hey Spiker, what's the rule on an assistant coach approaching a ref in the middle of the field while a player is injured? I thought a head coach could do it, but not an assistant, but I'm not sure.

Poet
01-11-2016, 07:50 PM
Hey Spiker, can an assistant coach threaten a player on another team in the middle of a field?

Joel
01-11-2016, 07:53 PM
I disagree with Sanders. But his points about how the rules work aren't illegitimate. The reality of the situation is that if it was another defender, they might not have thrown the flag. The reality is that the ways the rules are set up, lowering your body can be just as brutal -that's what the league advocates for- and while we suspect that Burfict didn't give a damn about Brown having the ball, he could not have known.

You can use the rules to hurt someone. Shazier did it, even though it was a clear defenseless receiver situation, and far more obvious than the first DR call that Pitt got. Yet you don't seem to care about that. Using the rules to hurt someone is in evidence from another Burfict play; that sack on Big Ben was brutal, designed to cause injury, and legal. You don't seem to care about that, either. But you do seem to care about this instance, and technically speaking, since Burfict didn't helmet-to-helmet Brown, and he did pull up a bit, this will be one of the appeals that he makes that he wins.

They will always throw that flag when a WR gets hit highish and falls to the ground like that. You can't review it, it's a bang-bang play, and it is what it is. Yet by the letter of the law Burfict might not have committed a penalty. He shouldn't have done it because he knew the refs were looking to squash anything (presumably until Porter was given a pass) and he was being an idiot for it. He should have been flagged, and he should have known that if he wanted a huge hit, and he's entitled to wanting that, he should have just aimed at thigh and knee areas. Give Brown the same treatment Eifert, Gronk, Kelce, and every other hulking TE gets. There's no flags there.

And I've said for YEARS on THIS site that Burfict is dirty.
This has been my complaint since "the moment" the league began changing the rules because it was harping on "player safety" (coincidentally the same moment current and former players filed a class action suit against the league for denying, concealing and discrediting the medical facts of CTE, a suit eventually settled for $765 million until the judge threw out the settlement on the grounds NEARLY A BILLION DOLLARS ISN'T ENOUGH TO COVER THE HARM THE NFL'S DONE.)

We saw it when we faced Pitt in the playoffs in 2011: During the pregame, Nantz and Simms had a lengthy discussion about James Harrison et al. telling them all week that, since the league had been penalizing, fining and suspending them for going high and hitting ball carriers in the head, they'd respond by simply going low, despite KNOWING that increased serious injuries to opponents knees and hips. The NFL's fine with that: No one's suing over ligament damage.

Lo and behold, Eric Decker went out for a pass midway through the second quarter, and caught it despite a Steeler defender already wrapping him up, only to have the ball come flying out when Harrison came flying in low and took out his knees: Decker left the game, never returned, and a postgame MRI showed sprained knee ligaments that ended his season. Deliberately injurious (again, Harrison essentially said BEFORE THE GAME that he'd legally injury opponents) but LEGAL.

I realize intent's VERY hard to legislate and enforce, and generally and strongly oppose forcing refs to make judgement calls: That's far too subjective and debatable a way to determine a games outcome, and it's already hard enough to do refs job in real time, often from a distance, and always with bodies flying around at pro athlete speed. We should minimize that demand on refs whenever possible, absent a compelling need to make them render such an opinion.

This is such a compelling need, because dirty players are rules-lawyering opponents into hospitals and out of the league with intentional life-altering injuries, while clean players are penalized, fined and even suspended for unintentional and non-injurious contact that nevertheless violates the letter of an awful law. The NFLs recent "safety" rules have made players LESS safe, not more, while incidentally making pass coverage practically impossible.

So "let them play," but flag, fine and suspend them for any and all contact that appears calculated to injure—high, low or in the middle—and leave them alone when there's an injury NO ONE intended. A LOW hit ENDED THEISMANNS CAREER, and horrified LT as much as anyone: The HoF LB was SCREAMING for a stretcher almost immediately, so I don't think he should've been penalized for the unfortunate but unintended consequences of his actions. Neither do current "player safety" rules.

College ball had the right idea when it started punishing players for "targeting" each other: Targeting is just that: A calculated, deliberate and intentional attempt to injure, regardless of WHERE or HOW that attempt is made. If that makes players worry about refs misjudging their intent, the best defense is avoiding even the APPEARANCE of impropriety; it'll certainly get everyone focused on player SAFETY, not just the leagues concussion liability.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 07:54 PM
Hey Spiker, can an assistant coach threaten a player on another team in the middle of a field?

Hell NO! If that happens in college (or HS) that's an automatic UNS on the coach. If that coach even comes out that far to yell at an official that's a UNS.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 07:55 PM
Hey Spiker, what's the rule on an assistant coach approaching a ref in the middle of the field while a player is injured? I thought a head coach could do it, but not an assistant, but I'm not sure.

Yeah, I heard about this today. At my level it's ok, but at the NFL level only medical personnel and the HC can come on the field to check on an injured player.

MOtorboat
01-11-2016, 07:57 PM
Yeah, I heard about this today. At my level it's ok, but at the NFL level only medical personnel and the HC can come on the field to check on an injured player.

What's the penalty?

Also, when stuff like this makes national news does your officials organization send out emails to explain what your rule is? I'd do that.

Thanks, and I'll hang up and listen off the air.

Poet
01-11-2016, 07:57 PM
I feel you, Joel. It's the same reason why I don't get mad at refs for calling certain things on players due to their reputations.

Joel
01-11-2016, 07:58 PM
The NFL has to take protecting the brain and blows to the head seriously, if they don't they're a barbaric joke. Even if it was accidental it still needs to be flagged.
It should take ALL safety issues seriously, but one of Deions very valid points, IMHO: If Burfict remains upright rather than ducking his shoulder, Browns head STILL hits him, just in the torso instead of the shoulder: Still illegal? Under the rules as written, yes; it doesn't matter WHAT hits the head, only that the head IS hit. So how's Burfict supposed to make that play if Brown makes the catch? Wait for him to catch and start running, and then shatter Browns knees?

That's ineffective defense, and doesn't protect player safety: It just prevents the leagues concussion liability settlement rising. The bottom line's the bottom line. ;)

spikerman
01-11-2016, 07:59 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you. By the letter of the law or the rule you are 100% correct; however I am speaking to the policy on the field, or how it is officiated. Let's say he stays on his first 'trajectory' and he keeps getting lower and still tags him. Often times it is not flagged. By the rules, it should be. But when I talk of football intelligence, I am speaking to players being cognizant of not just the rules, but their interpretations and implementations as well.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, I actually asked an NFL field judge about that once at one of my clinics. He was evaluating me (He said I did really well :D). Anyway, I asked about a defender going low to avoid contact to the head and neck area but the flight of the ball or some other action takes the receiver down low too and the defender makes contact there. He shrugged his shoulders and said, "it's a foul, the defender has to see what he's hitting." Now, that was a couple of years ago and every level, in addition to rules and mechanics, has officiating philosophies (such as not calling holding unless it's at the point of attack) so maybe the way they call it has changed.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:00 PM
What's the penalty?

Also, when stuff like this makes national news does your officials organization send out emails to explain what your rule is? I'd do that.

Thanks, and I'll hang up and listen off the air.
I believe that's an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. For us, usually our organization takes the lead from college and not the NFL, but yeah, if something very controversial or funky happens, we may get a new "interpretation."

Poet
01-11-2016, 08:01 PM
Hell NO! If that happens in college (or HS) that's an automatic UNS on the coach. If that coach even comes out that far to yell at an official that's a UNS.

FWIW, in football it's a fifteen yarder for coming out on the field. Technically speaking it's a fifteen yarder for a coach to yell at another player, albeit it takes a lot.

What I'm getting at, is that Porter committed a fifteen yard penalty twice on that final drive.

We deserved to lose; we also deserved to have the same rules enforced upon us be forced up the Steelers. Every ref on that field who was around Porter that didn't flag him should be fired for pure incompetence. I hate how the NFL always backs their refs. They foster an atmosphere of incompetence.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:03 PM
It should take ALL safety issues seriously, but one of Deions very valid points, IMHO: If Burfict remains upright rather than ducking his shoulder, Browns head STILL hits him, just in the torso instead of the shoulder: Still illegal? Under the rules as written, yes; it doesn't matter WHAT hits the head, only that the head IS hit. So how's Burfict supposed to make that play if Brown makes the catch? Wait for him to catch and start running, and then shatter Browns knees?

That's ineffective defense, and doesn't protect player safety: It just prevents the leagues concussion liability settlement rising. The bottom line's the bottom line. ;)
The key is that the defensive player in this scenario has to initiate contact. If Burfict is just running and the receiver runs into him, my guess would be that no flag would be thrown (but I couldn't guarantee it). In this case, Burfict obviously initiated the contact. The foul that I can't believe wasn't called was the obvious leading with the crown of the helmet on the Bengals' running back by the Steelers.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:03 PM
FWIW, in football it's a fifteen yarder for coming out on the field. Technically speaking it's a fifteen yarder for a coach to yell at another player, albeit it takes a lot.

What I'm getting at, is that Porter committed a fifteen yard penalty twice on that final drive.

We deserved to lose; we also deserved to have the same rules enforced upon us be forced up the Steelers. Every ref on that field who was around Porter that didn't flag him should be fired for pure incompetence. I hate how the NFL always backs their refs. They foster an atmosphere of incompetence.

He definitely should have been flagged.

BronColt
01-11-2016, 08:04 PM
Breaking News - Burfict suspended 3 games for repeated violations of player safety rules.

8253

BroncoWave
01-11-2016, 08:05 PM
Breaking News - Burfict suspended 3 games for repeated violations of player safety rules.

8253

Wonder how many threads this gets posted in. We are up to 3 now. :D

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:05 PM
Joel, Re: your MHS. A hit to the chest would be legal as long as, despite what happened earlier in the game, it wasn't with the crown of the helmet.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:06 PM
Breaking News - Burfict suspended 3 games for repeated violations of player safety rules.

8253
Good. The guy is a hothead. He needs to calm down. Now, are they going to do anything to the Steelers' coaches?

Poet
01-11-2016, 08:06 PM
The key is that the defensive player in this scenario has to initiate contact. If Burfict is just running and the receiver runs into him, my guess would be that no flag would be thrown (but I couldn't guarantee it). In this case, Burfict obviously initiated the contact. The foul that I can't believe wasn't called was the obvious leading with the crown of the helmet on the Bengals' running back by the Steelers.

They said it was a legitimate tackle. Unfortunately those same worthless refs who have no business being on the field called Cincinnati for a defenseless receiver foul after Wheaton or Bryant took three steps after catching the ball and got popped. Bernard got two, and Shazier also launched, IIRC. They failed to call it consistent, they failed to protect the players, and they essentially stripped us off a possession.

You are the only good ref in the world, all other refs are pieces of shit (unless you like them) and it is completely fair to boo refs because they're not real human beings until the game is over. :lol:

Poet
01-11-2016, 08:06 PM
Good. The guy is a hothead. He needs to calm down. Now, are they going to do anything to the Steelers' coaches?

They fined Porter.

Joel
01-11-2016, 08:06 PM
I feel you, Joel. It's the same reason why I don't get mad at refs for calling certain things on players due to their reputations.
That's it: No one's perfect, and risk and injury are parts of life, but there's a qualitative difference between accidental and deliberate injury—and it's NOT the MEANS. Attack the problem that way and the only result is that dirty players find new ways to make unethically but LEGALLY cripple opponents (because that search is part of "how they ball") while clean players get punished for incidental stuff even when it causes NO injury.

Create a rule that says "Don't shoot people in the face" and thugs will always respond, "so I can still shoot them in the chest, and stab them in the face?"

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:06 PM
They fined Porter.

What about Munchak?

Poet
01-11-2016, 08:07 PM
What about Munchak?

To the best of my knowledge he did not get fined.

He should have been ejected, though.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:08 PM
They said it was a legitimate tackle. Unfortunately those same worthless refs who have no business being on the field called Cincinnati for a defenseless receiver foul after Wheaton or Bryant took three steps after catching the ball and got popped. Bernard got two, and Shazier also launched, IIRC. They failed to call it consistent, they failed to protect the players, and they essentially stripped us off a possession.

You are the only good ref in the world, all other refs are pieces of shit (unless you like them) and it is completely fair to boo refs because they're not real human beings until the game is over. :lol:

I will admit that I have been booed plenty of times and legitimately so. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten game film and watched it and said to myself, "Well, I kicked the shit out of that call."

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:08 PM
To the best of my knowledge he did not get fined.

He should have been ejected, though.

I'm sure it's the same in the NFL, but it would take a coach taking a swing at me for me to eject them. We are told that we do not eject coaches. They can be, it's just our philosophy.

Poet
01-11-2016, 08:09 PM
I will admit that I have been booed plenty of times and legitimately so. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten game film and watched it and said to myself, "Well, I kicked the shit out of that call."

I believe in your ability to flag a coach who tells a rival play to bring his ass other to him so he can **** him up. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO HIM IN ONE OF THE MOST LITERAL WAYS POSSIBLE.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:10 PM
I believe in your ability to flag a coach who tells a rival play to bring his ass other to him so he can **** him up. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO HIM IN ONE OF THE MOST LITERAL WAYS POSSIBLE.

Oh yeah.. I'll flag him all day long, but not eject him. If that had been me, there would have been a flag and then a very intense discussion with the head coach letting him know that Coach Porter was not doing him any favors.

Poet
01-11-2016, 08:12 PM
Oh yeah.. I'll flag him all day long, but not eject him. If that had been me, there would have been a flag and then a very intense discussion with the head coach letting him know that Coach Porter was not doing him any favors.

But would you eject him in that setting and scenario of last night's game when the refs had no control? Because sometimes I believe ejections have as much to do with context as the actions themselves.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:14 PM
But would you eject him in that setting and scenario of last night's game when the refs had no control? Because sometimes I believe ejections have as much to do with context as the actions themselves.

Nope... without physical contact we don't eject coaches.

BroncoWave
01-11-2016, 08:14 PM
I'm sure it's the same in the NFL, but it would take a coach taking a swing at me for me to eject them. We are told that we do not eject coaches. They can be, it's just our philosophy.

What if a ref just flat out assaulted a player on the other team? What level of contact would it take to eject a coach for that?

Poet
01-11-2016, 08:15 PM
Nope... without physical contact we don't eject coaches.

What if a coach calls a player a racial slur?

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:17 PM
What if a coach calls a player a racial slur?

15 and a talk with the game administrator - usually a principal who may excuse him from further participation.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:18 PM
What if a ref just flat out assaulted a player on the other team? What level of contact would it take to eject a coach for that?

We would probably have the game administrator get rid of the coach for that game.

Poet
01-11-2016, 08:18 PM
15 and a talk with the game administrator - usually a principal who may excuse him from further participation.

Does the coach have to bring the principal an apple?

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:18 PM
ok.. going to watch the National Championship. This is fun. I'll try to see if there are any other questions either tonight or tomorrow.

Poet
01-11-2016, 08:19 PM
ok.. going to watch the National Championship. This is fun. I'll try to see if there are any other questions either tonight or tomorrow.

You actually make me like refs more, which is hard because I hate them.

spikerman
01-11-2016, 08:20 PM
You actually make me like refs more, which is hard because I hate them.

#reflivesmatter

Poet
01-11-2016, 08:22 PM
#reflivesmatter

No. :lol::lol:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-11-2016, 08:26 PM
It should take ALL safety isswues seriously, but one of Deions very valid points, IMHO: If Burfict remains upright rather than ducking his shoulder, Browns head STILL hits him, just in the torso instead of the shoulder: Still illegal? Under the rules as written, yes; it doesn't matter WHAT hits the head, only that the head IS hit. So how's Burfict supposed to make that play if Brown makes the catch? Wait for him to catch and start running, and then shatter Browns knees?

That's ineffective defense, and doesn't protect player safety: It just prevents the leagues concussion liability settlement rising. The bottom line's the bottom line. ;)

I have a son who suffered 2 major concussions playing football. I'm not one one you're going to get much sympathy from in that debate.

I've been to the ER with my son for a broken radius, and for a concussion. The concussion was much more terrifying.

Joel
01-11-2016, 09:22 PM
The key is that the defensive player in this scenario has to initiate contact. If Burfict is just running and the receiver runs into him, my guess would be that no flag would be thrown (but I couldn't guarantee it). In this case, Burfict obviously initiated the contact. The foul that I can't believe wasn't called was the obvious leading with the crown of the helmet on the Bengals' running back by the Steelers.
At least you're consistent, which is all I ask: Call it tight, loose or however you think right, but call it EVENLY.


Joel, Re: your MHS. A hit to the chest would be legal as long as, despite what happened earlier in the game, it wasn't with the crown of the helmet.

No: I mean would Burficts hit on Brown have been legal if Burfict hit Browns head with his chest instead of his shoulder? As you accurately noted earlier in the thread, the letter of the law says, "No: Using ANYTHING to deliver a blow to a defenseless players head is illegal." So all the debate over whether Burfict ducked his shoulder to avoid or create a blow to the head is irrelevant: Unless he stops dead, SOME part of his body hits Browns head, so he's still penalized and suspended.

Meanwhile, defenseless RUNNERS get jack for protection, and can even be penalized and suspended THEMSELVES for ducking their heads outside the tackle box (flinching from an imminent blow is a natural defensive reflex instilled by millennia of evolution—and illegal in the NFL.) Not that it matters in the case of Bernard, who was a RECEIVER turning forward after a catch when concussed by a headshot he couldn't defend himself from nor even SEE.

I realize you agree that should also have been flagged but that's not how most NFL officials, players (outside Cincy) and commentators are calling it. As a football fan and native Texas resident, I appreciate your commitment to maintaining the games fairness: But you'll never get to call a Steelers game with THAT attitude. ;)

Joel
01-11-2016, 09:36 PM
I have a son who suffered 2 major concussions playing football. I'm not one one you're going to get much sympathy from in that debate.

I've been to the ER with my son for a broken radius, and for a concussion. The concussion was much more terrifying.
I'm not trying to excuse deliberate concussions, simply noting that deliberately breaking someones leg (or arm) is no more excusable nor desirable. You and your son have my sympathy for his arm and head injuries, and I agree the head injury is far scarier; concussions, not broken bones, are why I won't let any of my kids play football in school. We should definitely do anything and everything practical to reduce concussions despite and even BECAUSE they can't be eliminated.

REQUIRING behavior that greatly RAISES the overall injury rate is not a solution though, certainly not a practical one. Especially not when it means signalling dirty players that avoiding the head lets them deliberately cause far MORE injuries AND GET AWAY WITH IT. Like, if you found out the guy who broke your sons arm DID IT ON PURPOSE, I kinda doubt your reaction would be "that's fine; at least it prevented another accidental concussion."

Keepers sig is naturally apt here: Is our concern the MEANS or ENDS of injuries? If only the first, dirty players will always find new means to the same dirty ends.

Simple Jaded
01-12-2016, 01:21 AM
Bombshell tonight! Tonight on Nancy Grace, Defensive player defends a defensive player!

BronColt
01-12-2016, 03:10 AM
Look at this different angle of Burfict after tackling Roethlisberger!!! He spins around so that he can get leverage to knee Roethlisbergers shoulder for additional injury! I had not noticed this until this video, this should be an indefinite suspension from the league!

https://vine.co/v/iMuO9BaxgQT

Poet
01-12-2016, 03:41 AM
Do you not realize that hit was legal? God dammit son. God dammit.

Joel
01-12-2016, 04:02 AM
Do you not realize that hit was legal? God dammit son. God dammit.
No one told this guy knees are NOT part of the head (duh.) Maybe if Earl Campbell sues the NFL for being confined to a wheelchair before 50 it'll be a problem, but....

GEM
01-12-2016, 11:34 AM
I have a son who suffered 2 major concussions playing football. I'm not one one you're going to get much sympathy from in that debate.

I've been to the ER with my son for a broken radius, and for a concussion. The concussion was much more terrifying.

My now 19 year old had a couple, one was exactly as you put it, terrifying. Couldn't stand up, he'd try and his legs just kept buckling. Scary, scary shit. As much as I love football and I LOVED my boys playing football, I was thankful when it was done. It's amazing what just 8 years of football did to their bodies. My 21 year old's knee cap still slides out of place and docs say there isn't much they can do unless he wants to go full reconstruction which would limit what he loves to do now, hiking and rock climbing.

Ravage!!!
01-12-2016, 12:42 PM
I'm surprised that anyone tries to say "that was a glancing blow"... the last thing that was, was a glancing blow. I can't figure out how anyone can even suggest it. He also had plenty of time to tell Brown didn't catch the ball.... so Foo is FoS on this one.

Slick
01-12-2016, 12:54 PM
That was a glancing blow. I don't know what to tell you Ravage.

Ravage!!!
01-12-2016, 12:55 PM
That was a glancing blow. I don't know what to tell you Ravage.

Well, that 250 lb kept moving forward after knocking the WRs head out of the path of momentum as he went by. If that is what you mean by 'glancing'.. ok.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-12-2016, 12:57 PM
That was a glancing blow. I don't know what to tell you Ravage.

Connor McGregor knocked Aldo out with a softer glancing blow.

capt. Jack
01-12-2016, 01:00 PM
I'm surprised that anyone tries to say "that was a glancing blow"... the last thing that was, was a glancing blow. I can't figure out how anyone can even suggest it. He also had plenty of time to tell Brown didn't catch the ball.... so Foo is FoS on this one.

It looked like he got blasted!

Slick
01-12-2016, 01:00 PM
Connor McGregor knocked Aldo out with a softer glancing blow.

Not to be rude but so what?

SR
01-12-2016, 01:02 PM
Not to be rude but so what?

Like I said before, you don't have to be hit hard, you have to be hit RIGHT.

Slick
01-12-2016, 01:05 PM
Like I said before, you don't have to be hit hard, you have to be hit RIGHT.

Oh I agree. I never said I thought Brown was faking it or that he didn't get his bell rung.

I feel like the hits on Bernard and Eifert were way more violent than the hit Brown took.

CoachChaz
01-12-2016, 01:06 PM
Like I said before, you don't have to be hit hard, you have to be hit RIGHT.

Agreed. One of my twins had his 3rd in 3 years this past season and none of the three were anything "violent" or "hard". Just happened to get hit the wrong way on all three.

Happy to say that he made the choice to quit playing before I could tell him it was time to give it up.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-12-2016, 01:28 PM
Agreed. One of my twins had his 3rd in 3 years this past season and none of the three were anything "violent" or "hard". Just happened to get hit the wrong way on all three.

Happy to say that he made the choice to quit playing before I could tell him it was time to give it up.

Tough stuff man, I've been there. Giving up football isnt easy for kids when they've played since flag football.

SR
01-12-2016, 02:41 PM
Agreed. One of my twins had his 3rd in 3 years this past season and none of the three were anything "violent" or "hard". Just happened to get hit the wrong way on all three. Happy to say that he made the choice to quit playing before I could tell him it was time to give it up.

I want my boys to play football but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't scared of stuff like that.

CoachChaz
01-12-2016, 02:52 PM
Tough stuff man, I've been there. Giving up football isnt easy for kids when they've played since flag football.


I want my boys to play football but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't scared of stuff like that.

The hard part for him and financially for me is both of them have some smaller schools looking at them, plus...they looked into going to the Naval Academy, which has a strong relationship with their high school (4 football players in the last 3 years). So, that was difficult for him, but he made the smart decision for his health.

Poet
01-12-2016, 03:16 PM
If I had kids, I don't think I would want them to play.

BroncoFanatic
01-12-2016, 04:02 PM
Look at this different angle of Burfict after tackling Roethlisberger!!! He spins around so that he can get leverage to knee Roethlisbergers shoulder for additional injury! I had not noticed this until this video, this should be an indefinite suspension from the league!

https://vine.co/v/iMuO9BaxgQT

I thought this was far more egregious than the hit on Brown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hz7TKhBAJk

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-12-2016, 04:24 PM
The hard part for him and financially for me is both of them have some smaller schools looking at them, plus...they looked into going to the Naval Academy, which has a strong relationship with their high school (4 football players in the last 3 years). So, that was difficult for him, but he made the smart decision for his health.

He definitely made the right decision.

My son hasn't played since the 2nd game of his sophomore year. It was hard to stop. The varsity coach had him pinned as the starting qb his junior year, the next season.

CoachChaz
01-12-2016, 04:28 PM
He definitely made the right decision.

My son hasn't played since the 2nd game of his sophomore year. It was hard to stop. The varsity coach had him pinned as the starting qb his junior year, the next season.

Understood. My son was a junior this past season and a starting DE and starting TE/H-back on pass plays. Would have been full time TE/H-back next year.

The other one has escaped injuries. He started DT this year and will be full time DT/FB next year.

spikerman
01-12-2016, 05:29 PM
The last couple of pages prove why blows to the head are, and should be, a foul.

Poet
01-12-2016, 05:33 PM
Why not just ban all hits to the head? Make it clear, obvious, and if the game cannot be played that way, then it just highlights the absurdity of outlawing them.

Ravage!!!
01-12-2016, 05:41 PM
Why not just ban all hits to the head? Make it clear, obvious, and if the game cannot be played that way, then it just highlights the absurdity of outlawing them.

It can't be played that way. It just can't.

spikerman
01-12-2016, 06:00 PM
At least you're consistent, which is all I ask: Call it tight, loose or however you think right, but call it EVENLY.



No: I mean would Burficts hit on Brown have been legal if Burfict hit Browns head with his chest instead of his shoulder? As you accurately noted earlier in the thread, the letter of the law says, "No: Using ANYTHING to deliver a blow to a defenseless players head is illegal." So all the debate over whether Burfict ducked his shoulder to avoid or create a blow to the head is irrelevant: Unless he stops dead, SOME part of his body hits Browns head, so he's still penalized and suspended.

Meanwhile, defenseless RUNNERS get jack for protection, and can even be penalized and suspended THEMSELVES for ducking their heads outside the tackle box (flinching from an imminent blow is a natural defensive reflex instilled by millennia of evolution—and illegal in the NFL.) Not that it matters in the case of Bernard, who was a RECEIVER turning forward after a catch when concussed by a headshot he couldn't defend himself from nor even SEE.

I realize you agree that should also have been flagged but that's not how most NFL officials, players (outside Cincy) and commentators are calling it. As a football fan and native Texas resident, I appreciate your commitment to maintaining the games fairness: But you'll never get to call a Steelers game with THAT attitude. ;)

Runners are not defenseless by rule. As to the Burfict question, if he purposely initiated forcible contact with his chest to the head, then yes, it would be a foul.

Poet
01-12-2016, 06:13 PM
It can't be played that way. It just can't.

I know.

Spiker, I think Joel is getting at the fact that the difference between a runner and a receiver being defenseless is almost always subjective. Ergo Wheaton got three steps as a defenseless receiver and Gio didn't even get two. My main complaint with the rules and the officiating is that it's hardly ever consistent. If it's so subjective, and it almost always is, why have a defenseless receiver rule? Because if it is so subjective, and it's going to create unfortunate and erratic results, and the hits to the head are too much, what's the point of the game? There is a certain breaking point where all the safety rules make the game unplayable, or bastardize it. I'm not saying that the point has been reached, but I can't help but feel raw that Gio took a cheap shot to the grill, Wheaton didn't, and the correct calls were switched. I feel that much rawer over the fact that the refs failed to all a defenseless receiver hit on the accord of Gio and the botched call led to a turnover. I can't help but feel that the refs blowing it, and letting my guy get taken out of the game, didn't lead to an escalation and even more violence on the field. Because after that hit the game got incredibly real. I can't help but to feel raw over the fact that Munchek wasn't ejected for pulling Nelson's hair, that the refs failed to flag Porter twice for coming onto the field and threatening a player. Yet Pacman got flagged for saying the same things to Porter that Porter said to Burfict.

No one is a harsher critic on Burfict and Jones than I am. I don't want Jones to be resigned, and I think Burfict should have been suspended an entire season. Yet the refs officiated an incredibly awful game, their calls were inconsistent, player safety went out the window, they were weak-willed and lost control over the game. What pisses me off the most is that the same refs who can't come close to being able to do their jobs always get protected and defended by the ******* league.

In my eyes the fact that the refs haven't all been fired isn't surprising, but they earned it. When I first started watching football refs took control of the game by going to the coaches and letting them have it. They threw fifteen yard flags early, often, and let the players know that the officiating crew was not scared to eject ANYONE. Meanwhile Burfict's running around blowing up guys right, left, and center, Pacman is acting like an *******, but is still behaving better than a Porter, a COACH, Munchek is somehow still on the sidelines after pulling a player's hair, Gio got rocked, illegally, Wheaton was hit, legally, and it wasn't called. In what universe are players, fan, coaches, and anyone else supposed to respect refs? FFS DeCastro can bodyslam Burfict ten yards away from the play, after the whistle has blown twice and there's no flag.

I've rewatched the entire game twice. The whole thing was a ******* joke.

Ravage!!!
01-12-2016, 06:23 PM
Hmm...

Poet
01-12-2016, 06:26 PM
Hmm...

When my love of the Bengals interacts with my hatred of referees and the Steelers, the vitriolic and rancor that is produced can be described as potent.

Joel
01-12-2016, 07:27 PM
Runners are not defenseless by rule.
I'll take your word that the rules define runners as not-defenseless, but that just underscores the NFLs hypocrisy: Safety is paramount for players involved in the high-rating (i.e. lucrative) PASSING game, but IRRELEVANT in the running game (except that we don't want those awful dirty runners lowering their heads to DEFEND themselves from imminent injury: That might sideline a PASS rusher doing commercials, gracing the front of Madden boxes and pulling down $10 million/yr.)


As to the Burfict question, if he purposely initiated forcible contact with his chest to the head, then yes, it would be a foul.
Say again? I thought it'd been established that expecting refs to telepathically divine a players PURPOSE was absurdly unreasonable and far too subject to, well, subjectivity, so rules shouldn't impossibly demand refs hold players to that standard. If that's NOT so, great: Penalize players for ANY and all PURPOSELY injurious acts (i.e. whether or not successful and however inflicted on any body part) and stop punishing them for accidents (again, however caused to any body part.)

Joel
01-12-2016, 07:51 PM
Spiker, I think Joel is getting at the fact that the difference between a runner and a receiver being defenseless is almost always subjective. Ergo Wheaton got three steps as a defenseless receiver and Gio didn't even get two.
Yes and no: I prefer to MINIMIZE ref subjectivity, to avoid ambiguity and controversy, but accept and demand they employ subjectivity when NECESSARY. And I wouldn't mind declaring player safety one of those necessary instances if it weren't so darned biased. Okay, fine, one crew calls a game really tight because they want everyone to walk away under his own power afterward, but another crew "let's them play" and on the players own heads be it.

So why does the SAME crew in the SAME game so often call it the first way for one team but the other way for the other team? Is Bernard THAT much more injury-resistant than Brown? Given the way each left the field, it sure didn't look like it.


My main complaint with the rules and the officiating is that it's hardly ever consistent. If it's so subjective, and it almost always is, why have a defenseless receiver rule? Because if it is so subjective, and it's going to create unfortunate and erratic results, and the hits to the head are too much, what's the point of the game? There is a certain breaking point where all the safety rules make the game unplayable, or bastardize it. I'm not saying that the point has been reached, but I can't help but feel raw that Gio took a cheap shot to the grill, Wheaton didn't, and the correct calls were switched.

That point may arrive soon, though my bet is the NFL just requires all players to sign waivers and proceeds under assumption of risk: We've known for MILLENNIA that veteran boxers frequently end their lives permanently "punch drunk," but it remains legal. It was ILLEGAL for that and other reasons about the same time we last debated banning football, but boxing continued and football gained new rules that made the game safer: Seven man lines and passing. Those rules obviously didn't make the game SAFE though, because a full contact sport can't be.

The point is (as noted elsewhere,) football's not only been here before, this is HOW it got here.


I feel that much rawer over the fact that the refs failed to all a defenseless receiver hit on the accord of Gio and the botched call led to a turnover. I can't help but feel that the refs blowing it, and letting my guy get taken out of the game, didn't lead to an escalation and even more violence on the field. Because after that hit the game got incredibly real. I can't help but to feel raw over the fact that Munchek wasn't ejected for pulling Nelson's hair, that the refs failed to flag Porter twice for coming onto the field and threatening a player. Yet Pacman got flagged for saying the same things to Porter that Porter said to Burfict.

Agreed 100%. It was a physical game before that, but didn't turn into a no holds barred street fight until IMMEDIATELY after that non-call: Cincy saw their guy get cheapshotted unconscious and ALSO saw Pitt not only wasn't penalized, but REWARDED with the ball instead of Cincys imminent FG. So the Bengals players decided to take matters into their own hands since the refs wouldn't, which is how that usually and understandably goes.

Shaziers cheap shot was the time for the refs to "take control of the game," not ten minutes later, after Pitt took Bernard OUT of the game and Burfict retaliated by doing the same to Roethlisberger: Both acts were as nominally legal as they were ethically and morally wrong. That whole sorry debacle the whole league's wrung its hands about ever since could've been avoided if the refs had preempted it at the start rather than belatedly showing up in a playoff games final seconds to arbitrarily determine the victor. Which just happened to be the same team whose infraction they ignored to start the whole snowball rolling; probably just coincidence....


No one is a harsher critic on Burfict and Jones than I am. I don't want Jones to be resigned, and I think Burfict should have been suspended an entire season. Yet the refs officiated an incredibly awful game, their calls were inconsistent, player safety went out the window, they were weak-willed and lost control over the game. What pisses me off the most is that the same refs who can't come close to being able to do their jobs always get protected and defended by the ******* league.
I feel the same about Ward and Talib, but don't dare say so loudly or often. Especially since we all know all four will remain with their respective teams next year.


In my eyes the fact that the refs haven't all been fired isn't surprising, but they earned it. When I first started watching football refs took control of the game by going to the coaches and letting them have it. They threw fifteen yard flags early, often, and let the players know that the officiating crew was not scared to eject ANYONE. Meanwhile Burfict's running around blowing up guys right, left, and center, Pacman is acting like an *******, but is still behaving better than a Porter, a COACH, Munchek is somehow still on the sidelines after pulling a player's hair, Gio got rocked, illegally, Wheaton was hit, legally, and it wasn't called. In what universe are players, fan, coaches, and anyone else supposed to respect refs? FFS DeCastro can bodyslam Burfict ten yards away from the play, after the whistle has blown twice and there's no flag.

I still think we need full time refs, for the same reasons I wouldn't want a part time surgeon removing my kidney or a part time mechanic fixing my car. It wouldn't solve every problem, but would mitigate many, because we'd have refs devoting every moment of their professional lives, 24/7, to learning and applying footballs rules. As opposed to say, brushing up on this years rules changes during lunch at the accounting firm where they practice their ACTUAL career.

We have pro coaches, pro players and a pro commissioner: Why do we have semi-pro refs (or cheerleaders, though they don't decide winners and losers)?

Poet
01-12-2016, 07:56 PM
I'll take your word that the rules define runners as not-defenseless, but that just underscores the NFLs hypocrisy: Safety is paramount for players involved in the high-rating (i.e. lucrative) PASSING game, but IRRELEVANT in the running game (except that we don't want those awful dirty runners lowering their heads to DEFEND themselves from imminent injury: That might sideline a PASS rusher doing commercials, gracing the front of Madden boxes and pulling down $10 million/yr.)


Say again? I thought it'd been established that expecting refs to telepathically divine a players PURPOSE was absurdly unreasonable and far too subject to, well, subjectivity, so rules shouldn't impossibly demand refs hold players to that standard. If that's NOT so, great: Penalize players for ANY and all PURPOSELY injurious acts (i.e. whether or not successful and however inflicted on any body part) and stop punishing them for accidents (again, however caused to any body part.)

Runners are not defenseless, but there is a transition from becoming a receiver to a runner. Some guys get three steps, some guys don't even get two.

Joel
01-12-2016, 09:36 PM
Runners are not defenseless, but there is a transition from becoming a receiver to a runner. Some guys get three steps, some guys don't even get two.
That ship sailed when the Competition Committee changed the language from "defenseless receiver" to "defenseless player" so its woefully unprotected QBs were included under the same umbrella. It was one thing when we were just talking about guys consciously ignoring imminent contact in the process of laying out for balls (though there's a difference between INABILITY to defend oneself and being able, and simply prioritizing a catch instead.) But that's no longer the case.

Now the rule is essentially that passers and receivers need protection because they can't walk and chew gum at the same time (probably due to the only injury serious enough to merit a civil suit, and thus league effort to reduce it (the civil action, not the injury.)) But runners are neither passers nor receivers, so make the league far less money and file far less suits, even though the punishment they absorb makes their careers notoriously short.

I'd probably be fine with it if the NFLs added protection for passers and receivers hadn't coincided with it REDUCING protection for runners: No more ducking your head to "get small" and shield your vitals from tackles outside the tackle box, and stiff arms to the face are now illegal also. There's a reason the NFLs player "safety" rules draw the most accusations of subjectivity, arbitrariness and outright bias: Because player "safety" rules are where NFL hypocrisy goes to die.

Simple Jaded
01-12-2016, 10:21 PM
Told you the Bengals got Stealered, stay strong Keeper, NFL officiating is atrocious.

spikerman
01-12-2016, 10:21 PM
Ok, there is a lot to address here from multiple posters so I'll just put some stuff out here. If I missed a point you want addressed let me know and I'll answer as best as I can:
1. I agree that it is very subjective as to when a player transitions from a defenseless to a "not defenseless" player. It's a flaw in the rules in my opinion.
2. Whether the Bengals' running back was a runner or a defenseless player at the time of the hit really is irrelevant because by leading with the crown of the helmet the Steelers' defender committed a foul anyway - which was not called.
3. Players other than receivers and quarterbacks can be "defenseless" and are also protected. If anybody wants me to list them from the college rulebook, I'd be happy to.
4. NFL officials are evaluated every year and some are not brought back. We don't see it because it hasn't happened with the white hats who are the faces of the crew.
5. As to whether the Burfict hit was intentional or not I don't think any objective person looking at that hit wouldn't think it's on purpose. That was CLEARLY a foul - as was the Steelers' hit.

Ok, let me know what I've missed. I don't claim to have all of the answers so don't take what I say as gospel (not that you would anyway), but that's just my $.02.

Poet
01-13-2016, 12:16 AM
Ok, there is a lot to address here from multiple posters so I'll just put some stuff out here. If I missed a point you want addressed let me know and I'll answer as best as I can:
1. I agree that it is very subjective as to when a player transitions from a defenseless to a "not defenseless" player. It's a flaw in the rules in my opinion.
2. Whether the Bengals' running back was a runner or a defenseless player at the time of the hit really is irrelevant because by leading with the crown of the helmet the Steelers' defender committed a foul anyway - which was not called.
3. Players other than receivers and quarterbacks can be "defenseless" and are also protected. If anybody wants me to list them from the college rulebook, I'd be happy to.
4. NFL officials are evaluated every year and some are not brought back. We don't see it because it hasn't happened with the white hats who are the faces of the crew.
5. As to whether the Burfict hit was intentional or not I don't think any objective person looking at that hit wouldn't think it's on purpose. That was CLEARLY a foul - as was the Steelers' hit.

Ok, let me know what I've missed. I don't claim to have all of the answers so don't take what I say as gospel (not that you would anyway), but that's just my $.02.

I find you explanations to be sincere, thoughtful, useful, and very good. If I come across angry at you because you're a ref, I don't mean to.

spikerman
01-13-2016, 06:20 AM
I find you explanations to be sincere, thoughtful, useful, and very good. If I come across angry at you because you're a ref, I don't mean to.

Nope, you come across frustrated and rightfully so.

Slick
01-13-2016, 10:02 AM
If what happened in Cincy happened in Denver I would be furious. Especially what Munchak and Porter got away with.

Poet
01-13-2016, 02:47 PM
If what happened in Cincy happened in Denver I would be furious. Especially what Munchak and Porter got away with.

I wanted Hue Jackson to roll out on there and start throwing hammers. Were Zimmer still in Cincinnati he would have left with at least four felonies.