Football Outsiders: Our O-line in the Osweiler era

[VonDoom]

Last month, I posted this thread, detailing how awful our o-line had been, especially after the KC game:

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/601934-Football-Outsiders-Mile-High-Meltdown-%28offensive-line-article%29/page3?highlight=o-line

FO has followed this up with a new piece, focusing on the games since Osweiler has been playing. Good news! We seem to have made some strides (Schofield still stinks, though):



With Osweiler playing the last few weeks, the bootleg has re-emerged in Denver. Not only is the play itself a weapon for the Broncos -- the second of the two bootlegs to open up the game went for 16 yards -- it has helped out some of the other aspects of Denver's offense, mainly the outside zone game (though the running game wasn't as good this week as it was in Osweiler's first two starts).


In general, I think the Broncos' offensive line has played better in recent weeks. Paradis in particular has taken a big step forward. He's playing with much more power and isn't in the backfield nearly as frequently as he was early in the year. The second-year player is starting to look like he could be a long-term answer for the Broncos.



Aside from Schofield though, it was an OK performance from Denver's offensive line. The run blocking needs to step up, but the pass blocking was there. I don't think this is a line that's ever going to be considered a true strength, but if they can keep playing at an average level, it will make a huge difference for Denver moving forward. To paraphrase Tin Cup, the greatest movie to ever run six to 15 times a week on the Golf Channel, sometimes par is good enough to win (if you have the best defense in the league).

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2015/word-muth-big-changes-denver

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Good read-

[Cugel]

Basically confirms what I've been saying all along - Micheal Schofield just flat sucks. Fox and Del Rio were right about not wanting to play him and Elway, who kept insisting on using "his" draft picks was wrong. They need to get rid of Schofield next off-season and, move Sambrailo to RT and get a really GOOD LT.

[Simple Jaded]

"Look, I only got one rule. And that's never bet money on a dog race with an ex-girlfriend who happens to be a stripper"

[NightTerror218]

Just read article on NFL website that over the last 3 weeks, Brady has been the most sack, hit QB.

They are theorizing that the poor OL play has to do with timing with QBS and WR. Brady has to hold on a little longer.

Only reason I am me timing in this is because every one states how bad our OL, which it is bad. But good QB play can over compensate for it. I think with more time in system that Oz could overshadow the bad play of OL as he gets more in sync with the players not just the offense. Manning has played with DT and Sanders yet he just did not show the established timing on passes, hitting them right as they get open or tight windows.

[Northman]

Just read article on NFL website that over the last 3 weeks, Brady has been the most sack, hit QB.

They are theorizing that the poor OL play has to do with timing with QBS and WR. Brady has to hold on a little longer.

Only reason I am me timing in this is because every one states how bad our OL, which it is bad. But good QB play can over compensate for it. I think with more time in system that Oz could overshadow the bad play of OL as he gets more in sync with the players not just the offense. Manning has played with DT and Sanders yet he just did not show the established timing on passes, hitting them right as they get open or tight windows.

Ive been pointing it out for weeks that Denver's OL isnt the only one that has issues on it. GB and NE's lines been playing horribly.

[Cugel]

"Look, I only got one rule. And that's never bet money on a dog race with an ex-girlfriend who happens to be a stripper"

You bet on dog races? Your ex girlfriend is a stripper? :lol:

[Cugel]

Ive been pointing it out for weeks that Denver's OL isnt the only one that has issues on it. GB and NE's lines been playing horribly.

Absolutely true. Did you notice Tom Brady throwing incomprehensible picks in the loss to Philly? He played like Peyton in that game. The 100 yard INT pick-six to Malcomb Jenkins - he had a defender right up the middle in his face.

Same thing happened on the 2nd pick. Defender right up the middle in his face, he over-threw his receiver into double coverage in the end zone by a good 5 yards.

The Patriots line has been a patch-work all season long due to injury.

And the Pats aren't the only team: the Seahawks are 7-5 and trailing their division by 3 games. Why? Russell Wilson has been sacked a league leading 38 times. No matter how mobile Wilson is, he can't evade the quick pressure. When they traded their pro-bowl C Max Unger in the pre-season for TE Jimmy Graham commentators were babbling about how great they were going to be with an additional weapon. Well, Graham has been a non-factor and their OL is horrible.

Same is true in Green Bay. Aaron Rogers has been getting pounded all season long. Of course, Peyton was beaten up and injured here in Denver. And Brock's been sacked 11 times in 3 games, so, the fact that other teams are struggling with their OLs is no comfort.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I read an article earlier this year suggesting defensive linemen are just better athletes overall.

[Northman]

Absolutely true. Did you notice Tom Brady throwing incomprehensible picks in the loss to Philly? He played like Peyton in that game. The 100 yard INT pick-six to Malcomb Jenkins - he had a defender right up the middle in his face.

Same thing happened on the 2nd pick. Defender right up the middle in his face, he over-threw his receiver into double coverage in the end zone by a good 5 yards.

The Patriots line has been a patch-work all season long due to injury.

And the Pats aren't the only team: the Seahawks are 7-5 and trailing their division by 3 games. Why? Russell Wilson has been sacked a league leading 38 times. No matter how mobile Wilson is, he can't evade the quick pressure. When they traded their pro-bowl C Max Unger in the pre-season for TE Jimmy Graham commentators were babbling about how great they were going to be with an additional weapon. Well, Graham has been a non-factor and their OL is horrible.

Same is true in Green Bay. Aaron Rogers has been getting pounded all season long. Of course, Peyton was beaten up and injured here in Denver. And Brock's been sacked 11 times in 3 games, so, the fact that other teams are struggling with their OLs is no comfort.

For starters, Manning hasnt been hurt all year so nice try there. Secondly, only one of the those QB's ranked at the bottom with more Int's than TD's. So yes, Olines have been bad for a lot of teams yet on one team their best player was downright awful.

[Cugel]

Only reason I am me timing in this is because every one states how bad our OL, which it is bad. But good QB play can over compensate for it. I think with more time in system that Oz could overshadow the bad play of OL as he gets more in sync with the players not just the offense. Manning has played with DT and Sanders yet he just did not show the established timing on passes, hitting them right as they get open or tight windows.

Having a mobile QB CAN compensate to a certain degree for a terrible pass-blocking OL. The offense is running the ball better with Osweiler because he's capable of the bootleg.

But, not completely. Notice that Denver's offense isn't scoring very many points. Seattle has lost 5 games and Green Bay is barely holding on in their division, despite having the best and most athletic QB in football - and the biggest problems for those teams is the OL. The Patriots OL is struggling and Brady is getting beat up and they've lost 2 straight, including to a team that is now 5-7.

My constant criticism of the OL is because I realize that you can't win a SB with any fundamental weakness in the OL any more than you can cross the ocean in a boat with a hole in the bottom that has been sealed with duct-tape.

And it didn't need to be this way. Elway could and should have gone out in FA and gotten some decent OL. He should have agreed to the trade for Joe Thomas. If he'd done that we would be thinking about the SB parade right now because Denver would be the strongest team in the AFC with a really GOOD OL.

[NightTerror218]

For starters, Manning hasnt been hurt all year so nice try there. Secondly, only one of the those QB's ranked at the bottom with more Int's than TD's. So yes, Olines have been bad for a lot of teams yet on one team their best player was downright awful.

Brady's WR had 7 drops against Philadelphia, 3 in final drive. Brady kept them in game. But Manning would not be able too.

[NightTerror218]

I read an article earlier this year suggesting defensive linemen are just better athletes overall.

This article is currently on NLF.com as the what to look for in week 14.

[NightTerror218]

Having a mobile QB CAN compensate to a certain degree for a terrible pass-blocking OL. The offense is running the ball better with Osweiler because he's capable of the bootleg.

But, not completely. Notice that Denver's offense isn't scoring very many points. Seattle has lost 5 games and Green Bay is barely holding on in their division, despite having the best and most athletic QB in football - and the biggest problems for those teams is the OL. The Patriots OL is struggling and Brady is getting beat up and they've lost 2 straight, including to a team that is now 5-7.

My constant criticism of the OL is because I realize that you can't win a SB with any fundamental weakness in the OL any more than you can cross the ocean in a boat with a hole in the bottom that has been sealed with duct-tape.

And it didn't need to be this way. Elway could and should have gone out in FA and gotten some decent OL. He should have agreed to the trade for Joe Thomas. If he'd done that we would be thinking about the SB parade right now because Denver would be the strongest team in the AFC with a really GOOD OL.

GB and NE are both down key WR. Messing up the timing g with QB and making good them hold onto ball longer. That was the point that of article. OL play is bad but making the QB hold on for an extra second or two has been the reason for the QB sacks and hits.

Which lead me to Oz and being new QB not in tune with his WR and having g perfect timing like Rodgers and Nelson or Brady and Edelman

[Northman]

Elway could and should have gone out in FA and gotten some decent OL. He should have agreed to the trade for Joe Thomas. If he'd done that we would be thinking about the SB parade right now because Denver would be the strongest team in the AFC with a really GOOD OL.

Yet only 4 out of 10 teams in the top 10 of offensive lines actually have winning records.

[Cugel]

For starters, Manning hasnt been hurt all year so nice try there. Secondly, only one of the those QB's ranked at the bottom with more Int's than TD's. So yes, Olines have been bad for a lot of teams yet on one team their best player was downright awful.

First, Manning has clearly been injured most of the season. The only game he played well was the Packers game, not coincidentally the game right after the bye -week. And are you really blaming Manning that at 39 he's not playing as well as Brady and Aaron Rogers?

Those QBs are banged up, and are not playing up to their normal standards, not suffering from a torn tendon in their foot. And neither has the kind of injury history of Manning with the 4 neck surgeries and consequently limited arm strength. Both are much more healthy and Rogers is simply a lot younger (and much more athletic to begin with).

Yet both are clearly suffering: Last year Brady was the 26th most sacked QB, this year 9th and Rogers was 19th last year, and this year tied with Brady. Their teams have lost games, the QB has thrown some highly questionable picks.

[Cugel]

Yet only 4 out of 10 teams in the top 10 of offensive lines actually have winning records.

Do you underrate the importance of decent OL? Having a good OL is a NECESSARY, not a SUFFICIENT condition. If the rest of your team sucks, especially your QB, and your defense you're still going to lose.

But, you can't win SBs with a bad OL, no matter how good the rest of your team is. And having a great QB isn't going to make up for ineffective pass protection from your OL:

Exhibit A - 2013 Broncos SB.
Exhibit B - 2011 Patriots SB.
Exhibit C - 2007 Patriots SB.

Three of the top 10 scoring offenses in NFL history. None won the SB. All were dominated in the SB by great defenses.

And teams don't have to be top 10 OL to be effective. They just have to be good.

[Northman]

First, Manning has clearly been injured most of the season. The only game he played well was the Packers game, not coincidentally the game right after the bye -week. And are you really blaming Manning that at 39 he's not playing as well as Brady and Aaron Rogers?

You are aware that Brady is 38 no? And no, Manning has not been hurt most of the year as the team said he was fine before the bye week. Brady has been sacked as much as Manning has been this year yet wasnt throwing 4 picks a game. The Philly game was the worst game that Brady had all year.

[Northman]

They just have to be good.

Denver is middle of the pack and hardly bottom of the league. Try harder.

[Cugel]

Denver is middle of the pack and hardly bottom of the league. Try harder.

Denver QBs have been sacked 28 times in 12 games. That's not "middle of the pack" it's actually 10th worst (i.e. #22nd best). Peyton was sacked 17 times all of last year! Given Peyton's quick release (one of the fastest in the NFL) the fact that he played almost exclusively in the shot-gun/pistol, and that Brock is pretty mobile and athletic, that statistic is actually worse than it appears.

[Dzone]

"Look, I only got one rule. And that's never bet money on a dog race with an ex-girlfriend who happens to be a stripper"

Banging strippers is one of my favorite pastimes

[Northman]

Denver QBs have been sacked 28 times in 12 games. That's not "middle of the pack" it's actually 10th worst (i.e. #22nd best). Peyton was sacked 17 times all of last year! Given Peyton's quick release (one of the fastest in the NFL) the fact that he played almost exclusively in the shot-gun/pistol, and that Brock is pretty mobile and athletic, that statistic is actually worse than it appears.

Both NE and Denver are 10-2 with all those sacks you are crying about. QB's get sacked but its not the end of the world. Oh and Cuges, Arizona has a top 10 Oline and Palmer has been sacked 21 times this year. It will be ok, i promise.

[NightTerror218]

Both NE and Denver are 10-2 with all those sacks you are crying about. QB's get sacked but its not the end of the world. Oh and Cuges, Arizona has a top 10 Oline and Palmer has been sacked 21 times this year. It will be ok, i promise.

#22 out of 32 is middle of the pack..... 10 teams are worse.

[Northman]

#22 out of 32 is middle of the pack..... 10 teams are worse.

Denver is ranked 16th, not 22nd.

[NightTerror218]

Denver is ranked 16th, not 22nd.

That's what I get for using a Cugel stat, blow out of proportion to seem worse.

[Cugel]

You are aware that Brady is 38 no? And no, Manning has not been hurt most of the year as the team said he was fine before the bye week. Brady has been sacked as much as Manning has been this year yet wasnt throwing 4 picks a game. The Philly game was the worst game that Brady had all year.

1. As to his health this season, Peyton lied and the team lied. We know that, it's not speculation. He said he was healthy enough to play against the Chiefs, and the team didn't say otherwise. Secretly, he was trying to play on a torn tendon in his foot and the team didn't admit the extent of his injury. He only came clean after he couldn't throw the ball 5 yards in that game and had the worst game of his career.

He's been beaten up, sacked and hit more this season than at any time in his career. He finally admitted he was suffering from more than just the foot injury. He also had shoulder injuries, and rib injuries, and god knows what else that he was covering up and trying to play through. Only he's 39 and he can't just play through injuries any more.

2. Brady is now and has been for 5 years now more healthy than Peyton, who has had 4 neck surgeries. What major injuries has Brady? That is the biggest difference between them. Have you forgotten that people doubted whether Peyton could even come back and play at all in 2012? Or that almost everybody predicted he would play 1 or 2 seasons at most if he did.

On these forums people were saying in his defence "if Peyton is 80% of the player he was, he'd still be better than most QBs in the NFL." The assumption was that he would never be the player he was before his injuries. Well, his arm strength at any rate never fully recovered and he has admitted that he never regained the feeling in his fingertips.

That is the essential difference between him and Brady. And we've known it for years.

When the Broncos brought Peyton back this season they had an obligation to provide the means for him to be successful, including replacing the production from the players they've lost (J. Thomas and Welker particularly) and not give him a horrible OL, no running game, and put all the burden on him. That is in fact the exact opposite of what was supposed to happen this year.

[Cugel]

Denver is ranked 16th, not 22nd.

Wrong. Take a look at ESPN. (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/sacks).

Add the Manning sacks to the Osweiler sacks. That makes them 10th (worst). Alex Smith and Russell Wilson are tied for the most sacks (NFL worst) with 38. Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers are tied for 9th with 29. 32nd - 9th = 23rd. 32nd - 10th = 22nd.

[TXBRONC]

"Look, I only got one rule. And that's never bet money on a dog race with an ex-girlfriend who happens to be a stripper"

I take it you've been burned by this before.

[Northman]

Wrong. Take a look at ESPN. (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/sacks).

Add the Manning sacks to the Osweiler sacks. That makes them 10th (worst). Alex Smith and Russell Wilson are tied for the most sacks (NFL worst) with 38. Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers are tied for 9th with 29. 32nd - 9th = 23rd. 32nd - 10th = 22nd.

Your strictly looking at sack numbers which is inaccurate when talking about he offensive line as a whole. Sacks are not the be all end all to how the Oline plays in all facets of the game. Again, try harder.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2015&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

[Cugel]

Denver is middle of the pack and hardly bottom of the league. Try harder.

Well, THAT argument just got blown totally out of the water by the Raiders game! :lol:

I don't think anybody can point to the Denver OL as "mediocre" with a straight face tonight.

Five more sacks, just blown off the ball all day, 34 yards rushing.

That's what beyond horrible looks like. And yes, they do utterly SUCK at "all facets of the game."