The Good and the Bad: Week 12

[BroncoWave]

Was way to hype to make a thread last night but here it is now.

The Good:

Brock. If that doesn't cement his place as the starter, nothing ever will. Holy crap those last few drives were the stuff of legend. Could not be happier with his performance.

CJ. MVP of the game. Those sweep plays for TDs were beautiful. He hit a second gear I didn't even know he had today.

Hillman. Outshined by CJ, but still a very solid game by him. If we can keep a 1-2 punch like this going, this team could really make some noise in January.

Sanders. Certainly did not look like his and Brock's first game together. Sanders probably didn't know what to do with himself finally having someone hit him on accurate deep balls.

Miller. Was a damn beast tonight. Even with getting held every play he was making his impact felt in a big way.

Wolfe. That one play where he just completely blew through a double team to get a tackle for loss was an absolute thing of beauty. He has been playing well lately.

Bad:

DT. That might have been the worst game I have ever seen a WR play. I mean wow. I'm sure we had other players with poor games today, but he gets a special spot on this list because he put up such a stinker. Glad he at least showed up for one play because it was an enormous one, but there is just no excuse for that overall effort. Had we lost, I would have pretty much single-handedly put the blame on him. He needs to work out whatever personal shit is going on in his head because he clearly was not all in this game.

[Northman]

The Good: Oz, CJ, Hillman, Wolfe, Sanders,

The Bad: DT, defensive penalties, questionable play calling at times.

[Valar Morghulis]

Good.... Penalty calls in our favor lol

Run blocking, Brock clutch Osweiler, the qb sneak, He-manuel sanders - that dude is a baller, cj and his blitz pick up. Fumble recovery.
Wolfe, Miller - who cares about his sack total, the dude it's a wrecking ball

Bad.....Stupid penalties on D

fumbles and some unnecessary sacks, Colquitt and who cares about any more negatives, last night was awesome, last night was "kicking and screaming"

[VonDoom]

I would put the play calling in the "bad" column, especially down the stretch. It worked out, so I'm not going to harp on it, but we did some really strange stuff starting on first and goal at the 8. That phantom holding penalty bailed us out there. And yes, DT is the obvious other "bad" choice here, though his one catch was a thing of beauty. Oh, and Colquitt. Rough punts early when field position was key.

Sanders is such a tremendous asset. I always think of what it steal it was to get him, especially taking him from under KC's nose :lol:

CJ was fabulous tonight. It's funny, though, because Hillman started slow but really turned it on. Consider this - until CJ's last run in OT, here were their stats:

CJ - 14 rushes, 65 yards, 1 TD
Hillman - 14 rushes, 59 yards, 1 TD

That's a one-two punch!

Brock still held the ball too long at times, but coming back on those final couple of drives was better than I could have hoped for from an inexperienced QB. Hats off to him for a great performance. His numbers almost mirrored Brady's exactly.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

170 yards rushing against the #2 rushing D is impressive. CJ ran great, but the line should get a little credit for that.

[Foochacho]

Sanders came from the steelers not KC. How did we steal him from them? Were they close to signing him? I was definitely excited to get him. I remember rubbing it in some steeler fans faces. They all said enjoy the drops. He doesn't drop anything not sure what they were talking about. DT and Eric Decker know how to drop some balls. Sanders has been amazing. Imagine Sanders in Pittsburgh right now. That would be an amazing receiving corps. I'm so happy they let him walk.

[Foochacho]

That was the best D we had faced yet. Kansas's D id pretty damn good. The Bears D has improved a lot as well. Brock and the running game have shown they can handle good defenses. I am liking our chances.

[VonDoom]

Sanders came from the steelers not KC. How did we steal him from them? Were they close to signing him? I was definitely excited to get him. I remember rubbing it in some steeler fans faces. They all said enjoy the drops. He doesn't drop anything not sure what they were talking about. DT and Eric Decker know how to drop some balls. Sanders has been amazing. Imagine Sanders in Pittsburgh right now. That would be an amazing receiving corps. I'm so happy they let him walk.

Sanders was about to sign with KC when Elway swooped in and signed him away. He might have been on a plane to KC and then never went there - I can't remember the exact details. Chiefs fans were pissed at the time.

If he was still in Pitt, they probably wouldn't have drafted Bryant, but I get your point - that is already a dangerous group. Sanders has blossomed here more than he ever did there.

[tripp]

Am I insane to think maybe Sanders is a better receiver than DT? DT's performance has solidified my thoughts on him being a soft receiver.

[TXBRONC]

I think this game shows why having a tight end who can block is important.

[TXBRONC]

Sanders was about to sign with KC when Elway swooped in and signed him away. He might have been on a plane to KC and then never went there - I can't remember the exact details. Chiefs fans were pissed at the time.

If he was still in Pitt, they probably wouldn't have drafted Bryant, but I get your point - that is already a dangerous group. Sanders has blossomed here more than he ever did there.

They're still pissed about it.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think this game shows why having a tight end who can block is important.

Yep

[NightTerror218]

Yep

Now we have 3 who block and 2 that can catch

[Bronco4ever]

Good: Brock showed a lot of grit down the stretch. 3 beautiful throws on the last TD drive in regulation.

Bad: Sometimes he hangs onto the ball for too long. It's nice that he wants to make plays, but sometimes that costs us. I hope he gets better in this aspect.

Overall, I really like what I'm seeing from Brock. He doesn't "look" like a backup QB. Other than being inexperienced in certain situations, he seems very prepared to run the offense and make the throws we need him to.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Now we have 3 who block and 2 that can catch

Yep, Vernon is a beast.

[tripp]

Yep, Vernon is a beast.

I hope we use him more than we have.

[VonDoom]

Am I insane to think maybe Sanders is a better receiver than DT? DT's performance has solidified my thoughts on him being a soft receiver.

DT has consistency issues - when he plays his best, he's the top five WR that we're paying him like. When he doesn't ...

Sanders is tough as nails and catches everything. I think his role is perfect for this team right now. I said in a thread a while back that we have two #1 WR, which is a great spot to be in.

[Davii]

Good: Damn near everything. Brock played damned good, both RBs ran well, the line blocked rather well. Defense played very well outside of the first quarter and the very end of regulation, love watching our D.

Bad: Punting, we handed the Pats easy yards on their first two opportunities then blew a chance to pin them deep. A few good punts, but overall Colquit put us in bad spots. The injuries to Vasquez, Sly, and Ward are troubling, hopefully we learn today that it's no big deal.

[Bronco4ever]

The injuries to Vasquez, Sly, and Ward are troubling, hopefully we learn today that it's no big deal.

I read some where high ankle sprains for Sly and Ward. Potentially both out for the next game or two. Haven't seen an update on Vasquez.

[tripp]

DT has consistency issues - when he plays his best, he's the top five WR that we're paying him like. When he doesn't ...

Sanders is tough as nails and catches everything. I think his role is perfect for this team right now. I said in a thread a while back that we have two #1 WR, which is a great spot to be in.

I agree Sanders is also a #1 receiver for us. I never looked at him as a #2 to DT. I just find when the conditions are tough, and the opponents are playing hard, he gets lazy. Half the throws Brock threw to DT, he waited for the ball to come to him instead of coming back and securing the ball. Just looked like he didn't want to fight for the ball at all last night.

[VonDoom]

I agree Sanders is also a #1 receiver for us. I never looked at him as a #2 to DT. I just find when the conditions are tough, and the opponents are playing hard, he gets lazy. Half the throws Brock threw to DT, he waited for the ball to come to him instead of coming back and securing the ball. Just looked like he didn't want to fight for the ball at all last night.

I agree. Drops are one thing, but he didn't fight hard enough for most of those balls. The CB was trying much harder to come back to the ball, as they pointed out on the broadcast.

[TXBRONC]

I hope we use him more than we have.

There is only so much they can do with him. He's hasn't been with team for even a entire month. Getting him midseason was boon but it does have a downside to it.

[VonDoom]

I read some where high ankle sprains for Sly and Ward. Potentially both out for the next game or two. Haven't seen an update on Vasquez.

Yeah, I posted that in the game thread. We'll know more today after everyone gets checked out. Hopefully Kubiak will have information when he talks later.

[tripp]

There is only so much they can do with him. He's hasn't been with team for even a entire month. Getting him midseason was boon but it does have a downside to it.

Hoping we resign for next year. Guy is amazing talent who can block, and WANTS to block.

[Ravage!!!]

Bad: Pass Rush. Seems our injured DE is really the key to this team putting pressure on the QB, OTHER than at the end of the game. NE has a notorious bad OL, and the Bills about crushed Brady. We didn't.

DT. Just seems like he plays out there without caring. I know that's a blanket statement, and not a fair one, but just seems to be "lazy" when it comes to come routes. It was shown on camera, several times about him not coming BACK to the ball and making sharp cuts. You would think that would have been a MUST when a slower Peyton ball was coming his way, but he just doesn't do it. He has regressed this season.

Hillman. I actually really like Hillman, but I'm dumbfounded as to why the HC decided to keep him in THIS game when it was obviously CJ's night? SOmetimes it's Hillman's night, but last night CJ was getting GREAT runs, and then we would pull him. I'm confused on that, because Hillman wasn't doing much (in comparison).

The OL: Ugh. It's just sooooo bad. The injuries are obviously making it worse, but wow..... just when I didn't think it was possible for it to get worse.

Brock on Second reads. Not only does he have a hard time finding the second receiver, but he has a tendency to hold onto the ball WAYYY too long. This OL is already poor. When he DOES decide to move out of the pocket (when its not a called roll-out) he moves to RUN rather than moves to buy time. He tucks the ball, thus not only doesn't give him a chance to actually find a receiver down the field, but it doesn't give the DB's/LBs any reason to worry that they might come up TOO fast to tackle him. He has the ball tucked, he's not throwing, there's no worry andt hey come flying.

GOOD:

TEs: Vernon had to be blocking more and more, but Daniels seems to have a good feel with Brock. Having two TEs that can provide some inside/middle threat is nice. I hope we can expand on their roles as it seems it's them, and Sanders to get the job done at catching the ball.

CJ: How can we say anything negative about this guy's play last night? Seriously, THAT was the RB we were wanting to see after last season. He was awesome..was really cool to see his excited face in the interview after the game. He was shining bright, as well he should have been.

Brock: He's a BROCKSTAR (tm). So far I've really liked what I've seen from the QB. Obviously, he has some things to work on as ALL young QBs do. It's also the same things that keep young QBs from progressing and becoming better QBs, so it will be something I keep an eye on, but I really enjoy watching him fire balls down the field. Hopefully we get some timing issues resolved pretty quickly though, as we were certainly off the mark a lot on simple routes and passes.

[EastCoastBronco]

Am I insane to think maybe Sanders is a better receiver than DT? DT's performance has solidified my thoughts on him being a soft receiver.

Sanders has earned the title of "Best Receiver on the Team".
The proof is in the pudding, man.
I ran out of excuses for DT a while ago.
He shows up when he wants to but most of the time his head is so far up his ass it's not funny.
I'm tired of his act.

[TXBRONC]

Hoping we resign for next year. Guy is amazing talent who can block, and WANTS to block.

It's possible but Miller and Osweiler will be the top two priorities this offseason.

[underrated29]

tHE gOOD

Mad Max Garcia. He fits better than Vasquez I think. We were running really well and pass blocking (IMO) better once vaz went out.
Hemanuel Sanders
CJ- he has been sexy the last 3 weeks. Not sure why he is not seeing more field.

Brocks floor- This is my favorite thing, what we are seeing now, is Brocks floor. This is the worst he will be. He can and likely will have a much higher ceiling. This is awesome for the future!


Bad- we didnt blitz. We played lots of zone at the end to allow brady to get a FG. Weird play calls.

[Ravage!!!]

tHE gOOD

Mad Max Garcia. He fits better than Vasquez I think. We were running really well and pass blocking (IMO) better once vaz went out.
Hemanuel Sanders
CJ- he has been sexy the last 3 weeks. Not sure why he is not seeing more field.

Brocks floor- This is my favorite thing, what we are seeing now, is Brocks floor. This is the worst he will be. He can and likely will have a much higher ceiling. This is awesome for the future!


Bad- we didnt blitz. We played lots of zone at the end to allow brady to get a FG. Weird play calls.

He's made a HoF career out of getting into FG range. It's what he's the master at...it's what he's the absolute best at. Was there anyone here that thought, for a moment, that he wouldn't get into FG range with just over a minute still left in the game? Of course he would. He's the absolute master at it.

[Buff]

Good: What incredible football theater. Will post some more pictures - but the setting was second to none and the snow started almost right on cue as the game got going.

Sanders doesn’t get enough credit across the league for his consistency and toughness. Guy is nails. Makes every tough catch always. It’s incredible. He should be getting paid more. CJ looked like the tough and shifty back from 2014 and note the Montee Ball clone he looked like for the first half of the year.

Bad: What the hell was Kubiak thinking with his clock management at the end of the first half? Either call a timeout with time to spare for the offense, or don’t call one at all, calling a timeout with 6 seconds left so that New England had just enough time to run an offensive play was literally the absolute worst clock management outcome you could have there. That was befuddling.

Brock took a couple of sacks you just cannot take that hurt us – but given his lack of turnovers I’ll give him a pass if this was the worst of his young QB mistakes.

Colquitt blows and I’m sick of our low defensive IQ.

88 - what the hell? First 10 targets with no catches? Pull your head out.

[foco]

That game was one of the most amazing sporting events I've ever seen live. Unbelievable. Anyway, just got done watching the game again (on TV) this morning and got a better look at the talib punt and Miller 15yd penalties. How in the world does this team have so much talent and be so damn dumb? And this consistently?!!! I'm a fan of this coaching staff in most areas, but this **** has got to stop. We're 12 weeks into the season and we're still doing this. That's on the coaches at this point.

[WARHORSE]

Now we have 3 who block and 2 that can catch


Latimer is the best blocker out of all of the receivers and TEs. That dude is a beast. Check his blocks on the run plays. Awesome.

[VonDoom]

Good:

Bad: What the hell was Kubiak thinking with his clock management at the end of the first half? Either call a timeout with time to spare for the offense, or don’t call one at all, calling a timeout with 6 seconds left so that New England had just enough time to run an offensive play was literally the absolute worst clock management outcome you could have there. That was befuddling.


I had the same initial reaction, but people on Twitter discussed it a lot right after it happened. Essentially, it seemed like Kubiak didn't want to risk running a high paced offense to get a quick score on the chance that we would turn it over, especially given the conditions. I don't necessarily agree, but I understand why they might be conservative there. As for taking the TO with five seconds left, he was trying to make the Pats punt and hope for another Bolden end of first half return like in the Colts game. Once we took the TO, Belichick called our bluff and ran another play rather than punt. Smart move by him.

[BroncoWave]

The Bad: Me forgetting to put Colquitt on the bad list. Huge mistake on my part. I will take a lap.

[Buff]

I had the same initial reaction, but people on Twitter discussed it a lot right after it happened. Essentially, it seemed like Kubiak didn't want to risk running a high paced offense to get a quick score on the chance that we would turn it over, especially given the conditions. I don't necessarily agree, but I understand why they might be conservative there. As for taking the TO with five seconds left, he was trying to make the Pats punt and hope for another Bolden end of first half return like in the Colts game. Once we took the TO, Belichick called our bluff and ran another play rather than punt. Smart move by him.

Sure - I understand that Kubiak's logic was that with the ball so close to midfield, and an unpredictable Patriots offense, he didn't want to stop the clock and then have them go for it. But surely if you are at that level of strategy, then you have to know that the Patriots aren't going to needlessly punt the ball with 6 seconds left. It was really elementary stuff. I think you either call the timeout right away, or you don't call it at all. Calling one with 6 seconds left actually put our defense at risk of having to defend a hail mary. It was kind of shockingly bad strategy IMO.

[Nomad]

For me.....the fight in the BRONCOS is what highlighted the game. Last year, they were punched in the mouth and rolled over taking a beating in that second quarter and pretty much were defeated. Last night, the BRONCOS took the one/two punch in the first quarter, but kept fighting. It's a promising sight, and fun game to watch.

BTW.....Jawsy needs to cook every game. :D

[Buff]

I saw a stat that the Patriots are now something like 106-3 when leading by 14 points in the 4th quarter. When we were down 21-7 in the 4th I really gave us no shot, because I just didn't see any way that Brock would lead us to 3 scores all while keeping Tom Brady off the scoreboard. Pretty miraculous comeback that will live in Broncos lore.

[BroncoWave]

I saw a stat that the Patriots are now something like 106-3 when leading by 14 points in the 4th quarter. When we were down 21-7 in the 4th I really gave us no shot, because I just didn't see any way that Brock would lead us to 3 scores all while keeping Tom Brady off the scoreboard. Pretty miraculous comeback that will live in Broncos lore.

Yeah, I would have bet every dime in my name that New England would have won the game at that point. I am still in absolute shock that we pulled that off. I would put the chances of this year's Manning pulling off that kind of comeback in that kind of weather against that team at about zero %. Granted those were the odds I was giving Brock at that point too, but he absolutely proved me wrong. He looked like a 10 year vet leading that go-ahead TD drive. And as someone else said, this is the WORST Brock will ever be. He'll only continue to improve. I'm all in on Brock as our QB of the future now. Throw in CJ and a still pretty young Sanders, and this is still going to be a fun offense to watch for the foreseeable future IMO.

[VonDoom]

Sure - I understand that Kubiak's logic was that with the ball so close to midfield, and an unpredictable Patriots offense, he didn't want to stop the clock and then have them go for it. But surely if you are at that level of strategy, then you have to know that the Patriots aren't going to needlessly punt the ball with 6 seconds left. It was really elementary stuff. I think you either call the timeout right away, or you don't call it at all. Calling one with 6 seconds left actually put our defense at risk of having to defend a hail mary. It was kind of shockingly bad strategy IMO.

I hear what you're saying. I don't know that I thought Belichick would have them run another play with the offense on the field but they did have to be prepared for that. Personally, I would have just called the TO right away and at least attempted something. That wasn't the most egregious clock management issue of the game, IMO, but it wasn't great.

[VonDoom]

I saw a stat that the Patriots are now something like 106-3 when leading by 14 points in the 4th quarter. When we were down 21-7 in the 4th I really gave us no shot, because I just didn't see any way that Brock would lead us to 3 scores all while keeping Tom Brady off the scoreboard. Pretty miraculous comeback that will live in Broncos lore.

Saw that stat as well as I attempted to fall asleep last night. Pretty incredible stuff.

[Buff]

I hear what you're saying. I don't know that I thought Belichick would have them run another play with the offense on the field but they did have to be prepared for that. Personally, I would have just called the TO right away and at least attempted something. That wasn't the most egregious clock management issue of the game, IMO, but it wasn't great.

What would you consider the most egregious? I thought it was clearly the most egregious because it's indefensible from a strategy standpoint. It was just bad strategy that was exposed immediately by BB.

Obviously I'd have liked to take more time off the clock with 1st and goal from the 3, but scoring is the bigger priority, so it's hard to fault them for running empty set and throwing on 1st down when it worked. What else was there?

[Davii]

Yeah, I would have bet every dime in my name that New England would have won the game at that point. I am still in absolute shock that we pulled that off. I would put the chances of this year's Manning pulling off that kind of comeback in that kind of weather against that team at about zero %. Granted those were the odds I was giving Brock at that point too, but he absolutely proved me wrong. He looked like a 10 year vet leading that go-ahead TD drive. And as someone else said, this is the WORST Brock will ever be. He'll only continue to improve. I'm all in on Brock as our QB of the future now. Throw in CJ and a still pretty young Sanders, and this is still going to be a fun offense to watch for the foreseeable future IMO.

You'd be up a cup of Starbucks right now you FOOL! :D

[VonDoom]

What would you consider the most egregious? I thought it was clearly the most egregious because it's indefensible from a strategy standpoint. It was just bad strategy that was exposed immediately by BB.

Obviously I'd have liked to take more time off the clock with 1st and goal from the 3, but scoring is the bigger priority, so it's hard to fault them for running empty set and throwing on 1st down when it worked. What else was there?

It was the end of the game. First and goal from the 8, actually. First play Brock rolled out on a designed QB keeper. I have no problem with the call, except he went out of bounds. That's more on Brock than Kubiak, but he has to know not to do that. I would have tried one straight up run there, either instead of that call or after it. If nothing else, we needed to get them to use that last time out. If you're leaving Brady with a minute to come back, he needed to have no time outs to work with. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I was scratching my head at the time.

[Buff]

It was the end of the game. First and goal from the 8, actually. First play Brock rolled out on a designed QB keeper. I have no problem with the call, except he went out of bounds. That's more on Brock than Kubiak, but he has to know not to do that. I would have tried one straight up run there, either instead of that call or after it. If nothing else, we needed to get them to use that last time out. If you're leaving Brady with a minute to come back, he needed to have no time outs to work with. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I was scratching my head at the time.

Yeah, but your #1 priority is scoring there, and you don't want to sand bag 1st or 2nd down and then leave yourself in a bad spot late in the series. So ideally you take more time there - but that's more of a preference than a tactical error IMO. The end of the 1st half was a straight up miscalculation and is always the wrong call in a vacuum (IMO).

[BroncoJoe]

Damn. I didn't realize what great coaches we have on this forum.

:tsk:

Please. 2nd guessing is really easy from the comfort of your living room couch in hindsight.

[BroncoWave]

What would you consider the most egregious? I thought it was clearly the most egregious because it's indefensible from a strategy standpoint. It was just bad strategy that was exposed immediately by BB.

Obviously I'd have liked to take more time off the clock with 1st and goal from the 3, but scoring is the bigger priority, so it's hard to fault them for running empty set and throwing on 1st down when it worked. What else was there?

I hated that we passed on 1st and goal there. Yes it worked which was great, but CJ had been killing it all game and while you ideally would like to score, it wouldn't have been the worst thing to get stopped on first down and either let time run off or make them use their timeout. Then you can run your pass play from the empty set on 2nd down and leave the Pats far less time. It would be one thing if our running game was sucking, but that's the direction I would have gone with that call.

[Buff]

I hated that we passed on 1st and goal there. Yes it worked which was great, but CJ had been killing it all game and while you ideally would like to score, it wouldn't have been the worst thing to get stopped on first down and either let time run off or make them use their timeout. Then you can run your pass play from the empty set on 2nd down and leave the Pats far less time. It would be one thing if our running game was sucking, but that's the direction I would have gone with that call.

Of course - I first guessed the decision - "why the hell are we going empty set?" But you also have the element of run/pass surprise on 1st down, which becomes increasingly more predictable with each down. I am never going to fault the team for scoring on 1st down there, because as soon as you start to get cute and run clock you run the risk of that plan blowing up in your face.

[NightTrainLayne]

The Good:

What a freaking amazing win! That was a lot of fun.

I'm going to mention something I haven't seen much in this thread yet: The gameplan the coaches implemented. That was a great gameplan, and one that not only could be, but was executed by the players on the field.

When are we going to start giving Kubiak, et al some credit here? They have run two totally different offenses for two very different quarterbacks, and put a lot of wins in the win column at the same time.

Last night was no exception. The gameplan was great. We can quibble about a playcall here or there, and some situational strategy/clock strategy etc., but the gameplan installed during the week leading into the game was very good, and produced good results.

The Bad: The area where our coaching is maybe lacking is the continuation of terribly stupid personal foul calls. Good grief. Von Miller has got to be dumber than a box of rocks. I love the guy, and his play, but you're not going to get away with that with any NFL QB, much less Tom Brady. You've got to be situationally aware. That is going to be an automatic 15 yarder and first down. Once it happened I expected New England to score, but somehow we buckled down and forced a punt later in the series.

[tomjonesrocks]

I saw a stat that the Patriots are now something like 106-3 when leading by 14 points in the 4th quarter. When we were down 21-7 in the 4th I really gave us no shot, because I just didn't see any way that Brock would lead us to 3 scores all while keeping Tom Brady off the scoreboard. Pretty miraculous comeback that will live in Broncos lore.

I had no hope at all in this one and there was certainly nothing in the first half to improve the hopes.

I can't believe they won. Really a shocking, shocking outcome.

Pats obviously can't believe it either.

[wayninja]

Sure - I understand that Kubiak's logic was that with the ball so close to midfield, and an unpredictable Patriots offense, he didn't want to stop the clock and then have them go for it. But surely if you are at that level of strategy, then you have to know that the Patriots aren't going to needlessly punt the ball with 6 seconds left. It was really elementary stuff. I think you either call the timeout right away, or you don't call it at all. Calling one with 6 seconds left actually put our defense at risk of having to defend a hail mary. It was kind of shockingly bad strategy IMO.

I think at best it was a wash. You either make them punt or make them throw a hail mary/throw it away. It wasn't really "bad" strategy so much as it was ineffective and countered perfectly. I'm not sure why you have such a problem with it. I totally understand that it didn't have the desired outcome but forcing a punt/hail mary in that weather really isn't the worst thing in the world.

The Patriots clock management at the end of regulation was WAY worse than anything Kubiak did. The broncos had 1 timeout and were gifted clock stopping incompletions on low percentage throws on subsequent plays (hurting Gronk on one of them). I have no idea what they were thinking there.

[Buff]

I think at best it was a wash. You either make them punt or make them throw a hail mary/throw it away. It wasn't really "bad" strategy so much as it was ineffective and countered perfectly. I'm not sure why you have such a problem with it. I totally understand that it didn't have the desired outcome but forcing a punt/hail mary in that weather really isn't the worst thing in the world.

The Patriots clock management at the end of regulation was WAY worse than anything Kubiak did. The broncos had 1 timeout and were gifted clock stopping incompletions on low percentage throws on subsequent plays (hurting Gronk on one of them). I have no idea what they were thinking there.

1.) Why in the world would you ever want to force a Tom Brady hail mary from around the 40 yard line? That's a -EV play for the defense. The issue I have is that Kubiak's tactic was to try and force a punt/snap/potential for error by the Patriots special teams... But he let the clock run down far enough where the Patriots weren't forced to use their special teams - so instead you're forced to defend one additional play against one of the greatest QBs of all time. So it was the worst of both worlds - we didn't preserve any time for our offense, and we didn't force them into a punt - so this was basically the least ideal outcome.

2.) In the long run, the Patriots are so wildly successful because they don't play to lose - they consistently put the defense on their heels. In a vacuum, it was maybe the wrong tactical play for them to throw, but with Brady as your QB I respect their desire to let their best player go out an win the game right there.

[BroncoJoe]

damn. I didn't realize what great coaches we have on this forum.

:tsk:

Please. 2nd guessing is really easy from the comfort of your living room couch in hindsight with a 12oz beer/vodka cran in your hand.

QFT - good grief!

(slight edit to the original post...)

[BroncoWave]

QFT - good grief!

(slight edit to the original post...)

Are we not allowed to debate coaching strategy anymore? I don't think anyone is suggesting they could be the head coach of the Broncos and do even 50% as well as someone who does it for a living, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss certain strategic decisions.

[BroncoJoe]

Are we not allowed to debate coaching strategy anymore? I don't think anyone is suggesting they could be the head coach of the Broncos and do even 50% as well as someone who does it for a living, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss certain strategic decisions.

Debate it all you want, and when I feel some are being ridiculous, I'll mention it. We won the game. Complaining about certain situations and individual play calls seems Brady-like. But that's just me.

Most articles I've read have stated the Broncos game plan was excellent. A play here or there were questionable, but it was spot on as a whole.

[I Eat Staples]

Our defensive gameplan was horrible and I don't know how it didn't cost us the game. Talib and Harris were wasted covering practice squad receivers that could be shut down by our 3rd and 4th guys or even a safety.

Talib should have been on Gronk and Harris should have been on the receiving back or Chandler. Probably even double Gronk with Talib AND a linebacker or safety.

[TXBRONC]

Our defensive gameplan was horrible and I don't know how it didn't cost us the game. Talib and Harris were wasted covering practice squad receivers that could be shut down by our 3rd and 4th guys or even a safety.

Talib should have been on Gronk and Harris should have been on the receiving back or Chandler. Probably even double Gronk with Talib AND a linebacker or safety.

I'm pretty sure Wade Philips knows what he's doing.

[Joel]

I hated that we passed on 1st and goal there. Yes it worked which was great, but CJ had been killing it all game and while you ideally would like to score, it wouldn't have been the worst thing to get stopped on first down and either let time run off or make them use their timeout. Then you can run your pass play from the empty set on 2nd down and leave the Pats far less time. It would be one thing if our running game was sucking, but that's the direction I would have gone with that call.
Largely agreed, with the only caveat being that I hate empty sets in ANY short yardage situation unless the plan's a QB draw: It makes things far too simple and obvious for the D. Regardless, and even with no time outs left, there's nothing wrong and much right with running on 1st and G at the 3 with >1:00 left and a 4 pt deficit: If it works, great; if not, run some time off the clock and try the pass on 2nd down, knowing it'll either put you up by a FG with <0:30 to play, or stop the clock with 2 more chances to win.


Our defensive gameplan was horrible and I don't know how it didn't cost us the game. Talib and Harris were wasted covering practice squad receivers that could be shut down by our 3rd and 4th guys or even a safety.

Talib should have been on Gronk and Harris should have been on the receiving back or Chandler. Probably even double Gronk with Talib AND a linebacker or safety.
We tried that last year: Gronk STILL ate our lunch and was their leading receiver. I'm more concerned that we kept putting LBs on RBs and expecting them to maintain coverage deep, even though Belicheats record consistently shows that when he runs out of WRs he just converts scatbacks. Wade should've seen that coming. He DID adjust EVENTUALLY, but that's a whole different game if they don't jump out to a 14-0 lead so trading TDs leaves it 21-7. I expect better of anyone named "Phillips."

[BroncoWave]

Our defensive gameplan was horrible and I don't know how it didn't cost us the game. Talib and Harris were wasted covering practice squad receivers that could be shut down by our 3rd and 4th guys or even a safety.

Talib should have been on Gronk and Harris should have been on the receiving back or Chandler. Probably even double Gronk with Talib AND a linebacker or safety.

After we adjusted to Gronk early we basically shut them down for the rest of the game. There is a reason CBs typically cover outside WRs. That's how the defense is set up. It would probably throw other things out of whack if you move CBs into areas they are not used to being.

But yeah, I'm sure you know more about how to run a defense than Wade Phillips.

[BroncoWave]

IIRC, you had earlier suggested putting Talib and Harris on gronk and Bolden right? That just isn't realistic to do. Either you are covering their WRs with safeties and linebackers, which is a big mismatch, or you are forced to play in dime the whole game which really limits what you can do on defense. Your idea sounds nice in theory, but it doesn't work practically.

[SR]

IIRC, you had earlier suggested putting Talib and Harris on gronk and Bolden right? That just isn't realistic to do. Either you are covering their WRs with safeties and linebackers, which is a big mismatch, or you are forced to play in dime the whole game which really limits what you can do on defense. Your idea sounds nice in theory, but it doesn't work practically.

And Brady would've picked that apart with his eyes closed.

[Joel]

Actually, playing dime against them most of the time isn't a bad idea: They LED until the final minute, in SNOW, yet only ran 16 times—for <40 yds. Maybe that's why NE* was less effective after injury to Ward (a thumper weak in coverage) promoted Bolden (a converted CB.)

On the other hand, a full dime package would've negated the speed advantage the Cheats scatbacks had against LBs deep BUT ceded them a size advantage in return. On yet a third hand, there's a reason RBs are rarely primary receivers, so if we'd had guys more capable of staying with them and tracking deep balls, size might not have mattered.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The coverage on Gronk and the other TE's led to multiple drops on short routes. I'd say the game plan worked out great. We held the Patriots to 24 points, which is VERY good.

[Davii]

But yeah, I'm sure you know more about how to run a defense than Wade Phillips.

I'm too lazy to go find the other quote from yesterday where you were giving Joe the business for saying something about you and Buff questioning Kubiak's coaching acumen for his timeout decision at the half... So.... well, I guess it's not OK to question coaching decisions after all?

[BroncoWave]

I'm too lazy to go find the other quote from yesterday where you were giving Joe the business for saying something about you and Buff questioning Kubiak's coaching acumen for his timeout decision at the half... So.... well, I guess it's not OK to question coaching decisions after all?

It's one thing to question an isolated decision, which is what war going on in that thread. It's quite another to call the entire game plan, especially one that pretty much worked, stupid.

[Davii]

It's one thing to question an isolated decision, which is what war going on in that thread. It's quite another to call the entire game plan, especially one that pretty much worked, stupid.

Meh, either it's fair game or it's not. JMO.

[BroncoWave]

Meh, either it's fair game or it's not. JMO.

I think there is quite a difference between questioning an isolated, in-game decision which is often in the heat of the moment, and implying that a coach (especially one with the track record of Wade Phillips) doesn't know how to gameplan for a certain team.

Your point is well taken that it's all fair game, and I'm not saying he isn't allowed to criticize a gameplan, but the post just came off to me like he knew better than Wade how to gameplan for the Pats. Which I think would be a silly stance to take.

[TXBRONC]

And Brady would've picked that apart with his eyes closed.

Gronkowski is just flat out difficult to defend no matter what defensive coordinator does. The best way to defend him is to hit him six times with a 2x4 and even that might not slow him down much.

[I Eat Staples]

IIRC, you had earlier suggested putting Talib and Harris on gronk and Bolden right? That just isn't realistic to do. Either you are covering their WRs with safeties and linebackers, which is a big mismatch, or you are forced to play in dime the whole game which really limits what you can do on defense. Your idea sounds nice in theory, but it doesn't work practically.

I think playing in dime all game would be fine vs NE. Our D-line was eating up their O-line on running plays. Wolfe alone was practically unblockable. Of course that kind of defense would be counter-intuitive vs 31 other teams, or even NE when healthy, but Sunday night was a special case.

And no I don't think I know more about running a defense than Wade Phillips, but the argument that coaches always know best is obviously silly if you watch enough teams play. On thanksgiving I watched the Eagles DC leave a rookie DB 1-on-1 against Calvin Johnson all game, getting predictably burned for 44 Lions points. So, just because someone gets paid a lot of money to do something doesn't mean they're great at it.

[BroncoWave]

I think playing in dime all game would be fine vs NE. Our D-line was eating up their O-line on running plays. Wolfe alone was practically unblockable. Of course that kind of defense would be counter-intuitive vs 31 other teams, or even NE when healthy, but Sunday night was a special case.

And no I don't think I know more about running a defense than Wade Phillips, but the argument that coaches always know best is obviously silly if you watch enough teams play. On thanksgiving I watched the Eagles DC leave a rookie DB 1-on-1 against Calvin Johnson all game, getting predictably burned for 44 Lions points. So, just because someone gets paid a lot of money to do something doesn't mean they're great at it.

I agree with your last point, but this is wade Phillips we are talking about. Probably one of the most accomplished defensive coordinators ever. He was smart enough to adjust after those first few drives and we pretty much shut their offense down the rest of the the game. It's not like they carved us up for 44 like in your other example.

[I Eat Staples]

I agree with your last point, but this is wade Phillips we are talking about. Probably one of the most accomplished defensive coordinators ever. He was smart enough to adjust after those first few drives and we pretty much shut their offense down the rest of the the game. It's not like they carved us up for 44 like in your other example.

Fair enough. My last point was just meant to illustrate that coaches aren't above being questioned by fans, which is something we hear from certain members of every fanbase all the time.