Does anyone really think?

[Northman]

We cant do it this year? I think we stand as good a chance as anyone.

[I Eat Staples]

I mean, New England was the best team in the AFC and we just beat them, so I'd say we actually have a chance to go to the superbowl.

Just as long as Kubiak sticks with Brock. Going back to Peyton would be...well, I'd be madder than I was at any point in the McDaniels era, let's put it like that.

[ShaneFalco]

need home field in playoffs. Then i would say maybe.

[Dapper Dan]

need home field in playoffs. Then i would say maybe.

Of the many reasons, that's why I wanted this game. Really hoping for the #1 seed.

[I Eat Staples]

Not sure anyone else is going to beat NE to get us homefield. But with all the injuries, just maybe.

Too bad we blew a winnable game vs a subpar Indy team, and had the debacle at KC...well, whatever, we just won in the snow we can win anywhere!

[Dapper Dan]

Yeah, it's too bad we aren't undefeated, I guess.

[Locnar]

We definitely can't go into the playoffs soft and flaccid. We need to go in Brock hard.

[CrazyHorse]

I think the Texans or Jets could hand the Patriots another loss. We need Ward, Sly, and Ware back though. If we do go to Foxboro snowy conditions favor the team that can run the ball better.

[ShaneFalco]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2015/11/29/0ap3000000591256.jpg

[DenBronx]

We need #1 seed but think we could beat NE in NE if Gronk is out.

[DenBronx]

Gronks injury already being reported as not serious. So yeah...NE needs to lose again. They have a soft schedule down the stretch.

[wayninja]

As good as Brock has played, it's still only 2 games. It's still a bit hard to judge.

So far he's been a (b)rock. But who knows? We have the potential to beat any team in the league. Do we have the consistency? That's a tougher question.

Injuries will also be a huge factor (as they are for most teams).

[D1g1tal j1m]

Having Anderson run like he did tonight will really help Brock and Kube fine tune the offense. I don't know what's going on with DT but he isn't on the same page with Brock as he was with Peyton, maybe it's all the route running and working with Peyton all these years that is throwing DT off. Hopefully with the continued work with Brock, DT will start to really dominate as we go down the stretch.

We have a chance like any other AFC team so let's enjoy the remaining games.

[wayninja]

Having Anderson run like he did tonight will really help Brock and Kube fine tune the offense. I don't know what's going on with DT but he isn't on the same page with Brock as he was with Peyton, maybe it's all the route running and working with Peyton all these years that is throwing DT off. Hopefully with the continued work with Brock, DT will start to really dominate as we go down the stretch.

We have a chance like any other AFC team so let's enjoy the remaining games.

Yes, there's definitely communication issues. Those are fixable.

But DT's fat butterfingers... that's something else. WTF is up with that? Did he inject cortisol into his fingers before the game?

[aberdien]

We have as good a chance as any team other than the Patriots IMO. I personally don't think we will, but it's not out of the question.

[Joel]

Gronks injury already being reported as not serious. So yeah...NE needs to lose again. They have a soft schedule down the stretch.
Good, both because I don't want anyone hurt and don't want to win by injuries. If they're better than us and outplay us, they earn the win; ending someones season to steal it is doubly wrong (though I realize that injury wasn't deliberate, just unfortunate.)

[NightTrainLayne]

Our offensive line is still way too weak to have any talk of playoff success.

[CrazyHorse]

Good, both because I don't want anyone hurt and don't want to win by injuries. If they're better than us and outplay us, they earn the win; ending someones season to steal it is doubly wrong (though I realize that injury wasn't deliberate, just unfortunate.)

Ask the Seahawks if they cared that the Broncos had injuries.

[Joel]

Ask the Seahawks if they cared that the Broncos had injuries.
Of course Seattle's fine with winning by injuries: It's part of their STRATEGY. We are neither the Seahawks nor ORIGINAL '70s Raiders, a fact for which I'm very grateful.

Also, only ONE of our SB injuries was on offense (though it was HUGE one) and Elway himself said our D "kept us in the game" despite having HALF its starters on IR. Seattle didn't beat us because of injuries, they beat us because we couldn't 1) protect our QB nor 2) open holes for our RBs. To paraphrase Oz after tonights game, neither the passers NOR runners can do jack unless the BLOCKERS do their jobs first. In that respect, maybe going with the mobile QB and protection-challenged road graders WAS the right call.

[Simple Jaded]

I could not possibly care less if the other team has injuries, I believe in karma so I don't wish it or celebrate it, but if Mongo is out I don't give a rats fat ass.

[OrangeHoof]

Myself, I'll be replaying Gronk's injury like it was the Zapruder film. Back and to the left. Back and to the left. Back and to the left. Pass the popcorn.

[Davii]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2015/11/29/0ap3000000591256.jpg

Caption:

"Look over there CJ, Brady is PISSED"

[VonDoom]

We have as good a chance as any team other than the Patriots IMO. I personally don't think we will, but it's not out of the question.

This is where I'm at. Chances are, we still finish behind NE meaning we would have to ultimately go there to beat them. Impossible? No, but it would be a tall order. Looks like Gronk will be okay, I believe Edelman would be back by the playoffs, etc. At full strength, they are still the team to beat.

[OrangeFanatic]

Manning starts: No chance
BOSSweiler starts: Maybe

[OrangeFanatic]

As good as Brock has played, it's still only 2 games. It's still a bit hard to judge.

So far he's been a (b)rock. But who knows? We have the potential to beat any team in the league. Do we have the consistency? That's a tougher question.

Injuries will also be a huge factor (as they are for most teams).

I agree it's only two games so it's a little early to judge. However Peyton has had the rest of the season to prove he's the worst QB in the league, I don't see how we can go back to him.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Brock looks much better than a guy with less than 100 throws. He looks safeties off. He makes adjustments at the line, and he can make all the throws.

This is a good problem to have, as long as we can resign him.

[Davii]

Brock looks much better than a guy with less than 100 throws. He looks safeties off. He makes adjustments at the line, and he can make all the throws.

This is a good problem to have, as long as we can resign him.

Brock isn't going anywhere. He guaranteed that last night.

[VonDoom]

Brock isn't going anywhere. He guaranteed that last night.

He probably guaranteed himself a nice contract, too. The money he was going to get (from us or anyone) was always up for debate since he had never played. Now his agent has this game to point to when they sit at the table.

[tripp]

Gotta put more pts on the board. Can't constantly go 3 and out for the most part of the game. It'll be interesting to see against SD

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Gotta put more pts on the board. Can't constantly go 3 and out for the most part of the game. It'll be interesting to see against SD

We had some drives stall, but I don't recall a lot of 3 and outs.

Imo, 24 points will be enough to win most weeks with this D.

[VonDoom]

Gotta put more pts on the board. Can't constantly go 3 and out for the most part of the game. It'll be interesting to see against SD

I thought we did a good job in general last night. This NE defense is really good and the conditions were not ideal to be slinging it all over the field. I expect Brock to get more comfortable each week. The SD will certainly be a fun watch.

[tripp]

I thought we did a good job in general last night. This NE defense is really good and the conditions were not ideal to be slinging it all over the field. I expect Brock to get more comfortable each week. The SD will certainly be a fun watch.

I imagine the weather conditions will be drastically different from last night's game, so we'll just have to see the play calling and how well we can string some drives together with a nice weather environment. Ideal situation would be to see us put up 28 pts on SD

[VonDoom]

I imagine the weather conditions will be drastically different from last night's game, so we'll just have to see the play calling and how well we can string some drives together with a nice weather environment. Ideal situation would be to see us put up 28 pts on SD

Well, the ideal situation would be to put up about 45 or so, but I don't want to get greedy ;)

[Northman]

Brock isn't going anywhere. He guaranteed that last night.

I hope not! :D

[Northman]

Gotta put more pts on the board. Can't constantly go 3 and out for the most part of the game. It'll be interesting to see against SD

To be fair, im surprised both teams put up as much as they did last night in that kind of weather. I mean, we put up 30 so im not sure what more we could ask for last night than that.

[wayninja]

Gotta put more pts on the board. Can't constantly go 3 and out for the most part of the game. It'll be interesting to see against SD

17 the first week, 24 (in regulation) the following. I like that trend. Couple that with the fact that we were playing in less than ideal conditions.

I'm ok with it.

[BroncoNut]

maybe an appearance but Carolina wins it all

[Timmy!]

If we can run the ball, we can beat anybody.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

If we can run the ball, we can beat anybody.

I thought it was the orange uni's?

[Timmy!]

I thought it was the orange uni's?

We need to wear the red throwbacks.

Sincerely,
Yoshi

[Krugan]

Some tough games left.

Steelers at their house, never an easy win.

Bengals, who are damn good this year.

Chuggers 2 times, which is never a gimmie game.

raiders who are playing semi decent football for the first time in years.

Tough to say we get better then 3rd seed at this point, and a stumble and all of a sudden a surging chiefs team could catch us.

[Nomad]

One game at a time, and just get the 'W'.

Chargers up next.

[Nomad]

Looked at the tv schedule, and it looks like FOX has the double header. So that means it'll be some lame early game up here for CBSs single game.

[BroncoNut]

We have as good a chance as any team other than the Patriots IMO. I personally don't think we will, but it's not out of the question.

I love your pic of Oswiler, it says it all. Can you email this to me? Someone has some holiday card ideas! thanks

[Joel]

Our offensive line is still way too weak to have any talk of playoff success.
I'm not sure. Granted, the Cheats were missing a few key run defenders, but the interior kicked ass all game last night; the word on Vasquez when he left SD was that he's an elite pass blocker but average run blocker, and it sure looked like it: We ran FAR better with a gimpy Mathis and Garcia than a gimpy Mathis and Vasquez. The main issue still seems the OTs, once again abused most of the game (the Int was 100% on Schofield getting pushed into Oz) but they were lights out in the 4th against a top pass rush.

So I dunno, maybe it's still getting there ever so slowly. Oz' accuracy against blitzes went from 25% in the first 3 quarters to 100%, including many deep balls, throughout the 4th, so maybe they CAN protect their QB (I didn't think to look whether we went max protect, but we did have 2 TEs most of the game.) If we can run like that in the playoffs that may not even matter much, especially with this D; run heavy defensive teams with average QBs have fared well in recent SBs.

[Cugel]

Our offensive line is still way too weak to have any talk of playoff success.

I was thinking this very thing.

I think John Elway fumbled away the Broncos best chance for a SB when he refused to do the Joe Thomas deal. The more I look at that proposed deal the worse Elways's decision not to deal looks.

Joe Thomas was the #3 pick of the draft and any LT prospect that good would be in the top 3 in any season. That pick is worth 2200 points. The Broncos look to be winning at least 12 games this season, so their 2nd round pick this year will be worth about 310-320 points. As for the 2017 1st rounder, with Brock playing average and this defense it would be a shock if they didn't win 10 games. That means they would be picking in the 20's in 2017, like they almost always do, so their pick would be worth between about 710 to 850 points. So, at most they'd be giving up less than 1100 points for a Hall of Fame LT who could be plugged into their OL and give them a rock solid left side of their OL.

Meanwhile Brock Osweiler has been sacked 11 times in 2 and 1/3 games. A couple of those sacks might have been Osweiler's fault for holding onto the ball too long, but not 11 of them! That's just horrible OL play.

You can't win in the playoffs with Osweiler getting hit on every passing play. He won't make it to January without being hurt.



They have a desperate need for help all along the OL, and they aren't going to get it.

[VonDoom]

Tough to say we get better then 3rd seed at this point, and a stumble and all of a sudden a surging chiefs team could catch us.

The pessimist in me always had this idea that the Chiefs might catch us, but after last night's win, I don't think so. Even if they win out, we would have to really collapse at this point to not beat them out.


Looked at the tv schedule, and it looks like FOX has the double header. So that means it'll be some lame early game up here for CBSs single game.

I think the Eagles/Pats game will be the national late game on Fox, which looks terrible at this point. Maps will be up on Wednesday so you can see what you'll get.

[Nomad]

The pessimist in me always had this idea that the Chiefs might catch us, but after last night's win, I don't think so. Even if they win out, we would have to really collapse at this point to not beat them out.



I think the Eagles/Pats game will be the national late game on Fox, which looks terrible at this point. Maps will be up on Wednesday so you can see what you'll get.

Yeah, I saw the same. I figure we get the Jets/Giants game or Bengals/Browns game. I think I'll take my little girl to the Ale House with me....I don't like missing division games. She wanted to go for that Chiefs game, but I went with just me and my son. She was all dressed up for the BRONCOS last night cheering. She usually could care less watching football. :lol:

[Joel]

I was thinking this very thing.

I think John Elway fumbled away the Broncos best chance for a SB when he refused to do the Joe Thomas deal. The more I look at that proposed deal the worse Elways's decision not to deal looks.

Joe Thomas was the #3 pick of the draft and any LT prospect that good would be in the top 3 in any season. That pick is worth 2200 points. The Broncos look to be winning at least 12 games this season, so their 2nd round pick this year will be worth about 310-320 points. As for the 2017 1st rounder, with Brock playing average and this defense it would be a shock if they didn't win 10 games. That means they would be picking in the 20's in 2017, like they almost always do, so their pick would be worth between about 710 to 850 points. So, at most they'd be giving up less than 1100 points for a Hall of Fame LT who could be plugged into their OL and give them a rock solid left side of their OL.

Meanwhile Brock Osweiler has been sacked 11 times in 2 and 1/3 games. A couple of those sacks might have been Osweiler's fault for holding onto the ball too long, but not 11 of them! That's just horrible OL play.

You can't win in the playoffs with Osweiler getting hit on every passing play. He won't make it to January without being hurt.

They have a desperate need for help all along the OL, and they aren't going to get it.
1) Unless Thomas brought along a couple clones, even HE couldn't raise our line from awful to adequate.

2) With two All Pros already plus a promising youngster inside and a system player who's started most games outside, the biggest lack isn't talent, but familiarity; yet another new face would've made that worse, not better.

3) The draft value of a #3 overall pick is for a ROOKIE, not a guy (at least) halfway through his career; pro-rate that value and it's <1000.

4) Oz hadn't started a single game then, so no one knew WHAT he'd do (and, realistically, no one does YET; there's not even enough tape on him to fill the required three games worth all teams are obligated to give their next opponent) let alone whether he'd start next year, and CERTAINLY not how many games we'd win. For all we know, he's the next Jim Sorgi or Curtis Painter and we'll be 2-14 next year, in desperate need of a QB and holding the #1 overall pick—except we traded it to Cleveland for one final desperate gasp at getting Manning a second Ring.

From a contingency perspective, that trade was absurd; from a value perspective, that trade was absurd. It's a good Madden trade, but an AWFUL real one. The way picks were overrated even before the rookie cap (and DEFINITELY since,) giving up a late 2nd and undetermined 1st for an All Pro >30 was a ripoff, which is what Cleveland had in mind: Defrauding another team as they did unloading Trent Richardson on the Colts for a bunch of top picks they'll waste anyway.

I'd have loved to have Thomas and FOUND a way to work him in and make it work, but not for THAT price; the odds of winning a SB any given year (much less with the oldest QB to EVER win one) are too long to put all our eggs in one basket that way. Historically, mortgaging MULTIPLE seasons just to try to push a good team over the top in a SINGLE season tends to end badly (remember the Eagles Dream Team a few years ago? Worked out great for Chip Kelly, but not Philly.)

[I Eat Staples]

run heavy defensive teams with average QBs have fared well in recent SBs.

Um...when?

[aberdien]

Um...when?

Seahawks is probably who he is thinking of.

[I Eat Staples]

Seahawks is probably who he is thinking of.

Wilson is definitely above average.

[TXBRONC]

Wilson is definitely above average.

I agree Wilson is above average but he's not elite.

[Joel]

Um...when?
Seattle's one, but Baltimore's another: Their QBs are there solely to bail them out of jams on the rare occasions their run game's not scoring and their D not preventing scores, so they find themselves in big second half holes. I still contend the situation's the same in Pitt, but one can't argue with the circular logic that says, "passing's so all important no one can win a SB without an elite QB; Pitt, Baltimore and Seattle won SBs, therefore Roethlisberger, Flacco and Wilson are elite."

[7DnBrnc53]

I'm not sure. Granted, the Cheats were missing a few key run defenders, but the interior kicked ass all game last night; the word on Vasquez when he left SD was that he's an elite pass blocker but average run blocker, and it sure looked like it: We ran FAR better with a gimpy Mathis and Garcia than a gimpy Mathis and Vasquez. The main issue still seems the OTs, once again abused most of the game (the Int was 100% on Schofield getting pushed into Oz) but they were lights out in the 4th against a top pass rush.

So I dunno, maybe it's still getting there ever so slowly. Oz' accuracy against blitzes went from 25% in the first 3 quarters to 100%, including many deep balls, throughout the 4th, so maybe they CAN protect their QB (I didn't think to look whether we went max protect, but we did have 2 TEs most of the game.) If we can run like that in the playoffs that may not even matter much, especially with this D; run heavy defensive teams with average QBs have fared well in recent SBs.

Also, the 08 Steelers won a title with a worse offensive line than this one, and their opponents in SB 43, the Cardinals, didn't have that great of an O-line, either.

[SR]

Seattle's one, but Baltimore's another: Their QBs are there solely to bail them out of jams on the rare occasions their run game's not scoring and their D not preventing scores, so they find themselves in big second half holes. I still contend the situation's the same in Pitt, but one can't argue with the circular logic that says, "passing's so all important no one can win a SB without an elite QB; Pitt, Baltimore and Seattle won SBs, therefore Roethlisberger, Flacco and Wilson are elite."

Of all those QBs you listed, Big Ben is the only one that it elite. Two weeks ago when he came off the bench and torched the other team is proof. Wilson and Flacco both do some things at an elite level, but neither are elite QBs.

[Northman]

Of all those QBs you listed, Big Ben is the only one that it elite. Two weeks ago when he came off the bench and torched the other team is proof. Wilson and Flacco both do some things at an elite level, but neither are elite QBs.

I always laugh at people who think Ben is not elite. Its just beyond funny. Dude has proven time and time again that he is a winner and has been clutch for the Steelers. And thats not even including the massive beatdowns he takes while still playing.

[Joel]

The consensus is that Big Ben's elite; I dispute that, but can't change it, so no longer bother. The Ravens and Seahawks didn't win championships because of their QBs though: They won with solid running and smothering D, and QBs just good enough to keep them in games on the rare occasions an opponent was good enough to hinder their team philosophy.

[SR]

The consensus is that Big Ben's elite; I dispute that, but can't change it, so no longer bother. The Ravens and Seahawks didn't win championships because of their QBs though: They won with solid running and smothering D, and QBs just good enough to keep them in games on the rare occasions an opponent was good enough to hinder their team philosophy.

Ben's Super Bowl stats aren't impressive but I would challenge you to give me a list of current NFL QBs that are better than him. My list would look like this: Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees. Big Ben is a top five QB which without a doubt makes him an elite player.

[Joel]

Ben's Super Bowl stats aren't impressive but I would challenge you to give me a list of current NFL QBs that are better than him. My list would look like this: Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees. Big Ben is a top five QB which without a doubt makes him an elite player.
Rivers is better, and I'm not sure Alex Smith isn't (I'm just grateful his WRs like to drop balls he drops in their laps, else our recent Arrowhead record would likely be worse.) Wilson's better, Luck's better, Newton's probably better. Romo's better. That's 4-6 more off the top of my head in addition to the three you already named; Ben MAY be top ten.

I get that generalized statements like "best" are inherently subjective, so I'm not gonna go all Travis' Last Stand here. But, in my humble OPINION, Roethlisberger's just a big guy with a big inaccurate arm and good feet, but a far better supporting cast than the very similar guy we booed out of here in 2011. Didn't Ryan Leaf prove that being an elite pro QB demands more than a grapeshot cannon and mile long rap(e) sheet?

[SR]

Rivers is better, and I'm not sure Alex Smith isn't (I'm just grateful his WRs like to drop balls he drops in their laps, else our recent Arrowhead record would likely be worse.) Wilson's better, Luck's better, Newton's probably better. Romo's better. That's 4-6 more off the top of my head in addition to the three you already named; Ben MAY be top ten. I get that generalized statements like "best" are inherently subjective, so I'm not gonna go all Travis' Last Stand here. But, in my humble OPINION, Roethlisberger's just a big guy with a big inaccurate arm and good feet, but a far better supporting cast than the very similar guy we booed out of here in 2011. Didn't Ryan Leaf prove that being an elite pro QB demands more than a grapeshot cannon and mile long rap(e) sheet?

No effing way Alex Smith is better than Ben. Hell, Alex Smith isn't even as good as Andy Dalton or Derek Carr. Romo and Rivers are close, but I wouldn't say they're better. From a skill standpoint, I would give Rivers a little more than Romo. Newton is a hell of an athlete but not a better QB. Wilson isn't better. Luck has been shit this year and looking at the entire body of work I wouldn't put him above Ben yet.

[Joel]

No effing way Alex Smith is better than Ben. Hell, Alex Smith isn't even as good as Andy Dalton or Derek Carr. Romo and Rivers are close, but I wouldn't say they're better. From a skill standpoint, I would give Rivers a little more than Romo. Newton is a hell of an athlete but not a better QB. Wilson isn't better. Luck has been shit this year and looking at the entire body of work I wouldn't put him above Ben yet.
I forgot about Dalton, but the jury's still out on him, IMHO (and definitely still out on Carr.) It's a bit early for Newton, too, but I'll retroactively add Palmer to the list.

Bens WRs have been worlds better than Smiths their whole careers; remember, Sanders wasn't good enough for Pitt, but Bowe's maybe the best Smith's had.

Luck's been awful for the same reason as Manning, and it's NOT that he should've retired before Father Time caught up with him at 26. Roethlisbergers career completion percentage is only slightly better than Wilsons even though he's been at it almost a decade longer. Romo and Rivers are both far better with protection and WRs, as Smith likely would be also; Pitt rebuilt their line a few years ago just as Dallas recently did, but it didn't improve their QB nearly as much.

Like I say though, most believe Ben elite regardless of what I think; it still doesn't change the reality that the Steelers won a pair of recent SBs and the Ravens and Seahawks as many more with run-first defensive teams who only occasionally needed merely average QBs to bail them out of the odd jam. There's a good argument that's how the Giants beat NE* in as many more SBs (for the record, I think Eli's a good QB, but wouldn't go as far as "elite.")

[SR]

The best WR Alex Smith has ever played with is Jeremy Maclin, and he can't even get him the ball consistently. Remember last season when Smith didn't throw one single TD pass to a WR? That reflects equally on the QB as it does on the WRs. I just refuse to believe Alex Smith is even near any of the other QBs mentioned. He's grouped with guys like Teddy Bridgewater, Ryan Tannehill, Brian Hoyer, etc IMO.

[DenBronx]

Did someone just say Alex Smith is a better QB than Big Ben?

*laughing my dick off*

[Joel]

The best WR Alex Smith has ever played with is Jeremy Maclin, and he can't even get him the ball consistently. Remember last season when Smith didn't throw one single TD pass to a WR? That reflects equally on the QB as it does on the WRs. I just refuse to believe Alex Smith is even near any of the other QBs mentioned. He's grouped with guys like Teddy Bridgewater, Ryan Tannehill, Brian Hoyer, etc IMO.
NOW Macklin's the best Smith's had (maybe,) but let's wait until they have more than half a seasons familiarity with each other before declaring Smith incapable of getting him the ball. Before that, KCs WRs were scrubs, and Smith throwing TEs 9 TDs, RBs 9 TDs (only 5 to Charles) but WRs ZERO absolutely reflects more on his WRs than him. I don't watch all KCs games, but remember ours vs. them 2013-2014? Smith was CONSISTENTLY hitting his WRs—but they were DROPPING his passes just as consistently.

It was so bad that when we played the 2013 rematch I was really hoping they still couldn't catch, because they'd have won the first game if they could've. I realize it's tempting to reduce or extrapolate every team to its QB or bag on a division rival, but we're both smarter than that. I can't stand the '9ers or Chiefs, but have never understood why people dismissed Smith simply because (by far) the best (and often only) target he ever had was Vernon Davis.

Put it this way: Smith was a huge upgrade from Cassel, and Kaep was a huge step down from Smith.

Anyway, debating Smiths merits and demerits is tangential to debating Bens, Roethlisberger himself tangential to the point on run-first defensive teams doing well in recent SBs, and even THAT tangential to the merits and demerits of our current line. I'm not averse to discussing tangents, but even I must "draw the line" at tangents to tangents to tangents.

[I Eat Staples]

Seattle's one, but Baltimore's another: Their QBs are there solely to bail them out of jams on the rare occasions their run game's not scoring and their D not preventing scores, so they find themselves in big second half holes. I still contend the situation's the same in Pitt, but one can't argue with the circular logic that says, "passing's so all important no one can win a SB without an elite QB; Pitt, Baltimore and Seattle won SBs, therefore Roethlisberger, Flacco and Wilson are elite."

I think Ben is one of the best QBs in the league. His numbers really speak for themselves over the past couple seasons. Wilson is not elite, but he's above average and has potential to be elite soon. Flacco is overrated, but the year they won the SB, he played extremely well because the O-line gave him TONS of time to throw. The Ravens were certainly not a defensive team that year, and Ray Rice was already declining. They won because when Flacco has unreasonable amounts of time to throw, THEN he can be elite. Their line gave him unreasonable amounts of time to throw during that playoff run.

[I Eat Staples]

And Alex Smith is garbage. He's the absolute worst QB a team can start in the entire league, because he'll never win a Superbowl, but he'll always be good enough that you won't get a high draft pick. KC continues to set their franchise back by being mediocre with their mediocre coach and mediocre QB.

[SR]

I think Ben is one of the best QBs in the league. His numbers really speak for themselves over the past couple seasons. Wilson is not elite, but he's above average and has potential to be elite soon. Flacco is overrated, but the year they won the SB, he played extremely well because the O-line gave him TONS of time to throw. The Ravens were certainly not a defensive team that year, and Ray Rice was already declining. They won because when Flacco has unreasonable amounts of time to throw, THEN he can be elite. Their line gave him unreasonable amounts of time to throw during that playoff run.

One thing Flacco has over every QB in the league is his deep ball. Absolute thing of beauty.

[Cugel]

I think Ben is one of the best QBs in the league. His numbers really speak for themselves over the past couple seasons. Wilson is not elite, but he's above average and has potential to be elite soon. Flacco is overrated, but the year they won the SB, he played extremely well because the O-line gave him TONS of time to throw. The Ravens were certainly not a defensive team that year, and Ray Rice was already declining. They won because when Flacco has unreasonable amounts of time to throw, THEN he can be elite. Their line gave him unreasonable amounts of time to throw during that playoff run.

Their team was pretty crappy that year overall, and they backed into the playoffs, but their defense played amazingly, especially against the Pats, when they limited the 4th best scoring offense in NFL history to 13 points (the 2012 Pats averaged 34 points a game), shutting them out in the 2nd half, in Foxborough, and forcing 3 turnovers by Brady.

The defense rallied around Ray Lewis after he dramatically announced that this would be his final season and suddenly it was like they were a different team.

So, the Ravens might not have been a great defense overall, they were in the biggest game.

[Cugel]

BTW: Joe Flacco has thrown 21 TDs and 3 Ints in 8 playoff games since 2010 and the Ravens have won 6 out of 8. That's elite.

[TXBRONC]

Rivers is better, and I'm not sure Alex Smith isn't (I'm just grateful his WRs like to drop balls he drops in their laps, else our recent Arrowhead record would likely be worse.) Wilson's better, Luck's better, Newton's probably better. Romo's better. That's 4-6 more off the top of my head in addition to the three you already named; Ben MAY be top ten.

I get that generalized statements like "best" are inherently subjective, so I'm not gonna go all Travis' Last Stand here. But, in my humble OPINION, Roethlisberger's just a big guy with a big inaccurate arm and good feet, but a far better supporting cast than the very similar guy we booed out of here in 2011. Didn't Ryan Leaf prove that being an elite pro QB demands more than a grapeshot cannon and mile long rap(e) sheet?

No Rivers is not better. Rivers like Flacco is franchise quarterback but he's not elite. You should be banned from the board for saying Alex Smith might be better because that is just flat out stupid. Smith has NEVER been anything more than journeyman quarterback.

[TXBRONC]

Did someone just say Alex Smith is a better QB than Big Ben?

*laughing my dick off*

Consider the source.

[I Eat Staples]

Their team was pretty crappy that year overall, and they backed into the playoffs, but their defense played amazingly, especially against the Pats, when they limited the 4th best scoring offense in NFL history to 13 points (the 2012 Pats averaged 34 points a game), shutting them out in the 2nd half, in Foxborough, and forcing 3 turnovers by Brady.

The defense rallied around Ray Lewis after he dramatically announced that this would be his final season and suddenly it was like they were a different team.

So, the Ravens might not have been a great defense overall, they were in the biggest game.

Yeah, that's true. They were a "get hot at the right time" team, on both sides of the ball.

Playing a joke of a playoff team like Indy in the 1st round will help with that.

[MOtorboat]

Rivers is better, and I'm not sure Alex Smith isn't (I'm just grateful his WRs like to drop balls he drops in their laps, else our recent Arrowhead record would likely be worse.) Wilson's better, Luck's better, Newton's probably better. Romo's better. That's 4-6 more off the top of my head in addition to the three you already named; Ben MAY be top ten.

I get that generalized statements like "best" are inherently subjective, so I'm not gonna go all Travis' Last Stand here. But, in my humble OPINION, Roethlisberger's just a big guy with a big inaccurate arm and good feet, but a far better supporting cast than the very similar guy we booed out of here in 2011. Didn't Ryan Leaf prove that being an elite pro QB demands more than a grapeshot cannon and mile long rap(e) sheet?

So, just to be clear: You're saying the 11th most accurate passer in NFL history has an inaccurate arm?

[CrazyHorse]

Ben's Super Bowl stats aren't impressive but I would challenge you to give me a list of current NFL QBs that are better than him. My list would look like this: Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees. Big Ben is a top five QB which without a doubt makes him an elite player.

Tony Romo, Philip Rivers, and a fully healthy Peyton Manning.

[Joel]

So, just to be clear: You're saying the 11th most accurate passer in NFL history has an inaccurate arm?
I guess so, yeah. Technically, Bens career percentage is a hair behind Schaubs (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_perc_career.htm), as is his career yds/att (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_net_yds_per_att_career.htm) (including sacks), so maybe he's almost as elite as Schaub; seem fair? I mean, he's good, but no Chad Pennington (AKA the 2nd most accurate passer in NFL history.) Also, active players comprise the majority of BOTH those top tens, because:

1) Unlike retired players, most active career averages haven't fallen as age takes its toll (though that may have begun for Manning and Brees) and
2) The most pass friendly rules in the NFLs century of history mean numbers that were elite just a few years ago are pedestrian now.

Like, remember when Marino threw 3 TDs/gm in just his SECOND season, and everyone agreed it was a freak anomaly resulting from the combination of a first ballot HoF QB in his prime, arguably the greatest coach of all time and a team with absolutely NO running game forced to 2:00 Drill its way to a SB? Well, that record DID last 30 years before Manning topped it by just ONE, but Brady topped that by 1 just 3 years later, then Manning shattered Bradys mark (under circumstances similar to Marinos) 6 years later.

Marinos once "impossible, unbreakable" season TD record is now 4th all-time thanks to the new rules. The NFL passing game average in 1984—just two years after the first season NFL teams EVER passed more than they ran—was 18/32 for 206 yds, 1.4 TDs and 1.3 Ints; a mediocre 73.2 passer rating. Last year it was 32/35 for 237 yds, 1.6 TDs and 0.9 Ints; a solid 87.1 rating. And it's already higher through 11 games this year. Don't just define "elite," normalize it.

[MOtorboat]

I guess so, yeah. Technically, Bens career percentage is a hair behind Schaubs (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_perc_career.htm), as is his career yds/att (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_net_yds_per_att_career.htm) (including sacks), so maybe he's almost as elite as Schaub; seem fair? I mean, he's good, but no Chad Pennington (AKA the 2nd most accurate passer in NFL history.) Also, active players comprise the majority of BOTH those top tens, because:

1) Unlike retired players, most active career averages haven't fallen as age takes its toll (though that may have begun for Manning and Brees) and
2) The most pass friendly rules in the NFLs century of history mean numbers that were elite just a few years ago are pedestrian now.

Like, remember when Marino threw 3 TDs/gm in just his SECOND season, and everyone agreed it was a freak anomaly resulting from the combination of a first ballot HoF QB in his prime, arguably the greatest coach of all time and a team with absolutely NO running game forced to 2:00 Drill its way to a SB? Well, that record DID last 30 years before Manning topped it by just ONE, but Brady topped that by 1 just 3 years later, then Manning shattered Bradys mark (under circumstances similar to Marinos) 6 years later.

Marinos once "impossible, unbreakable" season TD record is now 4th all-time thanks to the new rules. The NFL passing game average in 1984—just two years after the first season NFL teams EVER passed more than they ran—was 18/32 for 206 yds, 1.4 TDs and 1.3 Ints; a mediocre 73.2 passer rating. Last year it was 32/35 for 237 yds, 1.6 TDs and 0.9 Ints; a solid 87.1 rating. And it's already higher through 11 games this year. Don't just define "elite," normalize it.

That's a lot of bullshit to say you were wrong.

[Yashahla17]

I told y'all brock could lead us to the super-bowl with this defense and talent on offense. I truly believe we can win the super bowl now

[Joel]

That's a lot of bullshit to say you were wrong.
It would be, had I actually said that.

[7DnBrnc53]

And Alex Smith is garbage. He's the absolute worst QB a team can start in the entire league, because he'll never win a Superbowl, but he'll always be good enough that you won't get a high draft pick. KC continues to set their franchise back by being mediocre with their mediocre coach and mediocre QB.

Alex Smith had no business being the first overall pick 10 years ago (Aaron Rodgers didn't, either. He came from a Jeff Tedford offense, and he had things he needed to work on. Mike McCarthy was a big help to him in GB). I thought that at the time. He wasn't special like an Elway or Peyton.

That being said, though, Smith may have some of the Jake Plummer syndrome (solid QB ruined by starting out on bad teams). He is good enough to win a SB for KC with that defense. I would rather face the Pats in Foxboro than that KC D again. NE's D isn't in their class (or Denver's, for that matter).

Also, Rivers better than Big Ben? I don't think so. If Rivers is drafted in Pittsburgh in 04 instead of Big Ben, they don't go to three SB's and four AFC Title Games in six years.

[Northman]

The consensus is that Big Ben's elite; I dispute that, but can't change it, so no longer bother.

Thank you, you would be wrong anyway.

[SR]

Tony Romo, Philip Rivers, and a fully healthy Peyton Manning.

A fully healthy Peyton Manning led the NFL in interceptions.

[Cugel]

A fully healthy Peyton Manning led the NFL in interceptions.

Peyton Manning was not "fully healthy" for most of this season with the exception of the Green Bay game.

And the OL was beyond horrible for most of that time too, and the team couldn't run the ball in a system where everything depends on running the ball.

That has a lot to do with it. No matter how many fans want to blame the QB for everything it all starts with the OL and no QB (even Aaron Rogers) can play well with no running game and bad OL play.

[Joel]

Alex Smith had no business being the first overall pick 10 years ago (Aaron Rodgers didn't, either. He came from a Jeff Tedford offense, and he had things he needed to work on. Mike McCarthy was a big help to him in GB). I thought that at the time. He wasn't special like an Elway or Peyton.

That being said, though, Smith may have some of the Jake Plummer syndrome (solid QB ruined by starting out on bad teams). He is good enough to win a SB for KC with that defense. I would rather face the Pats in Foxboro than that KC D again. NE's D isn't in their class (or Denver's, for that matter).

Also, Rivers better than Big Ben? I don't think so. If Rivers is drafted in Pittsburgh in 04 instead of Big Ben, they don't go to three SB's and four AFC Title Games in six years.
Rivers' problems mirror Smiths: His lone great receiver was an elite TE, and his protection inconsistent at best. Statistically, he ranks higher than Big Ben in ALL categories:

Net Passing Yds (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_net_yds_per_att_career.htm)
Rivers 5th, Ben 11th

TD% (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_td_perc_career.htm)
Rivers 27th, Ben 43rd

Int% (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_int_perc_career.htm)
Rivers 13th, Ben 27th

Comp% (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_perc_career.htm)
Rivers 7th, Ben 11th

Passer Rating (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm)
Rivers 7th, Ben 9th

That's without anyone like Mike Wallace or Antonio Brown to target; again, this is a team with so many receiving threats they decided Sanders wasn't worth paying.

Note, btw, that, while those are all-time comparisons, Ben's not ranked among the top five ACTIVE passers in ANY category (the closest he comes is a pair of 7ths,) so if it's as simple as top five=elite, Ben's neither. He's a stronger dumber Bradshaw who's looked good with good WRs and even better since Pitt rebuilt its line, but all that made Vick and Landry Jones look much better than expected when Ben was hurt; it didn't make THEM elite either.

I'm just glad Keenan Allen and Malcom Floyd didn't get to SD sooner, else they'd have started the decade as the century: Owning us till PFM arrived to make it competitive.

All this is still far afield from the point about run-heavy defensive teams doing well in recent SBs, so I'll leave it there; further QB controversies will be noted without reply.

Though I'm obliged to ask: How scary good was Otto Graham? Among QBs who played before the benefit of pass-crazed 21st Century rules, only Montana and Young have higher ratings, and their West Coast Offense was practically designed to boost passer ratings even if the team never even got a first down. Seriously, Ken Anderson's 10th in that same group, thanks to the same QB coach who became Montana and Youngs head coach. Imagine a world where Virgil Carter had a cannon instead of a computer.... :shocked:

I frankly can't imagine that, because the gimmick Walsh created to make his brilliant and accurate but noodle-armed passer "passable" ranks with the blitz among the most successful and influential schemes of all time. Without Carter (or rather, with a better QB in Cincy) Daryle "Mad Bomber" Lamonica passing might still be the norm; it was for forty years before that, and just look at the TD% it produced. But here's the thing:

As long as he NEVER missed, a QB could spend his whole CAREER throwing 3 yd passes every down, NEVER getting a FIRST (let alone touch)down, but retire with a 97.9166... rating (3rd all-time, and Rodgers and Wilsons ratings will almost certainly fall with age.) There's a lot to be said for "grapeshot arms" as long as they 1) avoid Ints on their many misses and 2) reach the red or end zone on most of their hits. After all, if we're just matriculating the ball, there are better ways (ask Wilson, Flacco and Roethlisberger.)

[BroncoJoe]

HOLY shit.

[Northman]

HOLY shit.

Amazing isnt it? lmao

[7DnBrnc53]

Rivers' problems mirror Smiths: His lone great receiver was an elite TE, and his protection inconsistent at best. Statistically, he ranks higher than Big Ben in ALL categories:

Net Passing Yds
Rivers 5th, Ben 11th

TD%
Rivers 27th, Ben 43rd

Int%
Rivers 13th, Ben 27th

Comp%
Rivers 7th, Ben 11th

Passer Rating
Rivers 7th, Ben 9th

That's without anyone like Mike Wallace or Antonio Brown to target; again, this is a team with so many receiving threats they decided Sanders wasn't worth paying.

Note, btw, that, while those are all-time comparisons, Ben's not ranked among the top five ACTIVE passers in ANY category (the closest he comes is a pair of 7ths,) so if it's as simple as top five=elite, Ben's neither. He's a stronger dumber Bradshaw who's looked good with good WRs and even better since Pitt rebuilt its line, but all that made Vick and Landry Jones look much better than expected when Ben was hurt; it didn't make THEM elite either.

I didn't know that Rivers led Ben in those categories. However, Elway usually wasn't in the top-5 in the major categories when he played under Dan Reeves, and nobody is going to say that Philip is better than him. If the 06 Chargers had an Elway, they would have won the Super Bowl.


I'm just glad Keenan Allen and Malcom Floyd didn't get to SD sooner, else they'd have started the decade as the century: Owning us till PFM arrived to make it competitive.

Malcom Floyd arrived in SD the same year that Rivers did (2004). He was an undrafted FA from Wyoming, along with a fella by the name of Wes Welker (who Marty foolishly cut after their first game).


Though I'm obliged to ask: How scary good was Otto Graham? Among QBs who played before the benefit of pass-crazed 21st Century rules, only Montana and Young have higher ratings, and their West Coast Offense was practically designed to boost passer ratings even if the team never even got a first down. Seriously, Ken Anderson's 10th in that same group, thanks to the same QB coach who became Montana and Youngs head coach. Imagine a world where Virgil Carter had a cannon instead of a computer....

I frankly can't imagine that, because the gimmick Walsh created to make his brilliant and accurate but noodle-armed passer "passable" ranks with the blitz among the most successful and influential schemes of all time. Without Carter (or rather, with a better QB in Cincy) Daryle "Mad Bomber" Lamonica passing might still be the norm; it was for forty years before that, and just look at the TD% it produced. But here's the thing:

As long as he NEVER missed, a QB could spend his whole CAREER throwing 3 yd passes every down, NEVER getting a FIRST (let alone touch)down, but retire with a 97.9166... rating (3rd all-time, and Rodgers and Wilsons ratings will almost certainly fall with age.) There's a lot to be said for "grapeshot arms" as long as they 1) avoid Ints on their many misses and 2) reach the red or end zone on most of their hits. After all, if we're just matriculating the ball, there are better ways (ask Wilson, Flacco and Roethlisberger.)

I am not old enough to remember, but my impression of Otto Graham was that he was a product of the team success to a fairly large degree. You have to remember, Paul Brown was ahead of his time. He brought the classroom aspect to the NFL, along with other innovations. For example, he tried to use a speaker system in the QB's helmet to call plays long before it became commonplace.

Also, the Browns didn't start to fade in the late-50's just because Otto left. They also lost these players by 1957: Marion Motley, Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, Dub Jones, Bill Willis, Frank Gatski, Chick Jagade, Tommy Thompson, Tommy James, Curly Morrison, Tom Catlin, Ken Carpenter, Abe Gibron, Lin Houston, Lou Rymkus, George Young, and Lou Saban.

And, while Walsh's foresight in Cincy was important, Bud Grant was also throwing short passes in Minnesota with a guy named Fran Tarkenton. Heck, Tarkenton said that the WCO-style offense was started in New York when he went there in 1967, three years before Walsh started doing that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeIYdifUf3M

[Davii]

One thing Flacco has over every QB in the league is his deep ball. Absolute thing of beauty.

Brock Osweiler says hello and wants you to meet his bomb to Emmanuel Sanders in the 4th quarter against the Pats. He thinks you two might hit it off.

[Broncoknight30]

List of QBs that have won it since 2000 that were not really statistical elites in the years they won it all.

Trent Dilfer
Brad Johnson
Eli Manningx2
Roethliberger x 2
Joe Flacco
Russell Wislon

Just to reiterate too. Tom Brady in his first 4 seasons was 10-0 on the play offs with 3 rings. None of those SB winning seasons did he pass for 4000 yards or 30TDs. In 2004, they won it with a 1600 yard rusher and they went 10 years before they won it last year.

His best "stat" seasons were after that last SB and he was 8-8 in the play offs going into last season.

Research and see how many QBs have won it all in the same year they passed for 4000 yards AND 30Tds in that same season. Manning in 2006, Brees in 2009, and Brady last season. That is about it since 2000.

Go ahead and tell me the last time a QB had 600+ pass attempts in a season and won the SB that year. Before you go back and look, I will save you time. None. If you want to give it to the Pats last season, who as a team had over 600 attempts, then fine.

One team (No QB though) has over 600 attempts and won the SB in that season. If not for a boneheaded call from the 1, I think that stat would be NONE ALL AROUND.

So, what does all of that mean to you? Just curious. Is it likely that Oz will win it all? No of course not. I mean it is statistically unlikely. Is it impossible? No of course not.

[SR]

Brock Osweiler says hello and wants you to meet his bomb to Emmanuel Sanders in the 4th quarter against the Pats. He thinks you two might hit it off.

Os throws a solid deep ball but I haven't seen it enough to be able to unseat Flacco as the best deep ball thrower in the league.

[Davii]

Os throws a solid deep ball but I haven't seen it enough to be able to unseat Flacco as the best deep ball thrower in the league.

But did you and that throw hit it off? Was there a spark?

[Broncoknight30]

Os throws a solid deep ball but I haven't seen it enough to be able to unseat Flacco as the best deep ball thrower in the league.

Well, true enough. However it does make the safeties play back which is the other big issue as to why the Broncos rushing struggled with Manning. Check it out. Safeties are hanging a little further back with Oz. They had been blatantly cheating up with Manning, and becoming defacto 8th and 9th men in the box.

That TD pass to DT against the Bears really showed what happens the safeties play up and the LBs are concerned about Oz being able to run. Watch the play carefully. Oz, for a moment tucked the ball to run. The LBs reacted, and DT found himself in a really soft spot underneath the coverage where the safeties were playing deep.

That, was absolutely reflective on Fox and Gase letting them know that Oz has a hose and he can run. That play reflected the big arm and mobility affect. Not saying it going to work like that all of the time. Just saying the big arm and mobility clearly has its distinct advantages in the offense that Kubiak is running.

It has only been two starts for Oz. Lets hope he continues to improve. Confidence is the key and I am hoping the fan base does crush that confidence that is so vital. Let us not pretend that players are not effected. They are.

[MOtorboat]

Rivers' problems mirror Smiths: His lone great receiver was an elite TE, and his protection inconsistent at best. Statistically, he ranks higher than Big Ben in ALL categories:

Net Passing Yds (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_net_yds_per_att_career.htm)
Rivers 5th, Ben 11th

TD% (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_td_perc_career.htm)
Rivers 27th, Ben 43rd

Int% (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_int_perc_career.htm)
Rivers 13th, Ben 27th

Comp% (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_perc_career.htm)
Rivers 7th, Ben 11th

Passer Rating (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm)
Rivers 7th, Ben 9th

That's without anyone like Mike Wallace or Antonio Brown to target; again, this is a team with so many receiving threats they decided Sanders wasn't worth paying.

Note, btw, that, while those are all-time comparisons, Ben's not ranked among the top five ACTIVE passers in ANY category (the closest he comes is a pair of 7ths,) so if it's as simple as top five=elite, Ben's neither. He's a stronger dumber Bradshaw who's looked good with good WRs and even better since Pitt rebuilt its line, but all that made Vick and Landry Jones look much better than expected when Ben was hurt; it didn't make THEM elite either.

I'm just glad Keenan Allen and Malcom Floyd didn't get to SD sooner, else they'd have started the decade as the century: Owning us till PFM arrived to make it competitive.

All this is still far afield from the point about run-heavy defensive teams doing well in recent SBs, so I'll leave it there; further QB controversies will be noted without reply.

Though I'm obliged to ask: How scary good was Otto Graham? Among QBs who played before the benefit of pass-crazed 21st Century rules, only Montana and Young have higher ratings, and their West Coast Offense was practically designed to boost passer ratings even if the team never even got a first down. Seriously, Ken Anderson's 10th in that same group, thanks to the same QB coach who became Montana and Youngs head coach. Imagine a world where Virgil Carter had a cannon instead of a computer.... :shocked:

I frankly can't imagine that, because the gimmick Walsh created to make his brilliant and accurate but noodle-armed passer "passable" ranks with the blitz among the most successful and influential schemes of all time. Without Carter (or rather, with a better QB in Cincy) Daryle "Mad Bomber" Lamonica passing might still be the norm; it was for forty years before that, and just look at the TD% it produced. But here's the thing:

As long as he NEVER missed, a QB could spend his whole CAREER throwing 3 yd passes every down, NEVER getting a FIRST (let alone touch)down, but retire with a 97.9166... rating (3rd all-time, and Rodgers and Wilsons ratings will almost certainly fall with age.) There's a lot to be said for "grapeshot arms" as long as they 1) avoid Ints on their many misses and 2) reach the red or end zone on most of their hits. After all, if we're just matriculating the ball, there are better ways (ask Wilson, Flacco and Roethlisberger.)

And there it is. The West Coast Offense, the single best innovation to football in the last 30 years, is a "gimmick."

[Davii]

And there it is. The West Coast Offense, the single best innovation to football in the last 30 years, is a "gimmick."

As is that new fangled forward pass thingy.