Manning Out Two More Weeks

[TimHippo]

Will miss next two games.
Christmas for Yashi and the Philippines.

http://www.9news.com/story/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/2015/11/24/peyton-manning-out-two-weeks-plantar-fascia-tear/76346320/

[Nomad]

As expected, he can't just rub dirt on that type of foot injury and get back on the field.

[tripp]

Makes sense, this will give the organization enough time to determine whether we stick with Brock for the remainder of the season or go back to Peyton once he's healthy.

[MOtorboat]

He's faking it.

Signed,
Yashinator

[Dzone]

Bringing Christina Ponder in for a look

[wayninja]

I thought he had a partial tear that requires at least 12 weeks to fully heal? Is the team rushing him by saying only the next couple of games, or does he not have a partially torn plantar fascia?

I know it's not uncommon for teams to not be super specific with injuries, but I'm guessing this is actually good news considering what the prognosis for a partial tear is.

[BroncoWave]

Still stand by my opinion that he has started his last game as a Bronco. I don't think they want to announce it publicly after just one game though. Assuming Brock doesn't fall apart over the next two weeks, I think they officially make the transition.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I thought he had a partial tear that requires at least 12 weeks to fully heal? Is the team rushing him by saying only the next couple of games, or does he not have a partially torn plantar fascia?

I know it's not uncommon for teams to not be super specific with injuries, but I'm guessing this is actually good news considering what the prognosis for a partial tear is.

Nobody is rushing anything. Kubiak said he won't be available for at least 2 weeks, and he'll be in a boot for a week. He didn't say he'll only moss two more weeks.

He won't even be practicing.

[wayninja]

Nobody is rushing anything. Kubiak said he won't be available for at least 2 weeks, and he'll be in a boot for a week. He didn't say he'll only moss two more weeks.

He won't even be practicing.

Cool. I didn't ask anything about any of that though. I asked if he had a torn plantar fascia. I guess I can infer that the answer is no, because as I've been told, the prognosis for that is severe rest for weeks and not at 100% until at least 12 weeks.

If the answer is yes, then the question is valid... is 2 weeks way to aggressive a schedule for that type of injury?

These aren't leading or rhetorical questions, I'm actually asking them.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Cool. I didn't ask anything about any of that though. I asked if he had a torn plantar fascia. I guess I can infer that the answer is no, because as I've been told, the prognosis for that is severe rest for weeks and not at 100% until at least 12 weeks.

If the answer is yes, then the question is valid... is 2 weeks way to aggressive a schedule for that type of injury?

These aren't leading or rhetorical questions, I'm actually asking them.

According to the report, nothing has changed. He has a partial tear. I think they're going to take it week to week, and more than likely he's not seeing the field for at least a month, barring an injury to Brock.

[wayninja]

According to the report, nothing has changed. He has a partial tear. I think they're going to take it week to week, and more than likely he's not seeing the field for at least a month, barring an injury to Brock.

At least a month sounds way more reasonable. It's just not what they said. Whatever, I'm probably reading too much into it, but I suspect your right. "At least 2 weeks" is probably closer to "At least 4-5 weeks".

[BroncoWave]

According to the report, nothing has changed. He has a partial tear. I think they're going to take it week to week, and more than likely he's not seeing the field for at least a month, barring an injury to Brock.

If Brock gets injured, I would way rather them trot out Simean or Ponder/whoever they bring in over a still-injured Manning.

[wayninja]

If Brock gets injured, I would way rather them trot out Simean or Ponder/whoever they bring in over a still-injured Manning.

Yep. Exactly. And since they are working out Ponder (and whoever else if they don't like him), that definitely looks like the writing on the wall.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Peyton Manning walked a well worn path to Dr. Robert Anderson's office in Charlotte, N.C., on Monday, and walked out requiring a minimum of two weeks rest. The earliest Manning will return is Dec. 6 at San Diego.

The Broncos will work out free agent quarterback Christian Ponder Wednesday, eyeing depth as they brace for a potential extended absence by Manning.

Anderson recommended Manning spend this week in a walking cast — a treatment for the torn plantar fascia in his left heel — followed by additional rehab strengthening of his leg. By going with a cast, Manning has elected a non-surgical procedure. Manning will attend meetings and perform light workouts with the team, according to coach Gary Kubiak.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_29161813/peyton-manning-follows-elis-path-charlotte-foot-advice

[VonDoom]

Apparently we put in a waiver claim on Jimmy Clausen but the Ravens got him. Now working out Ponder. If Brock isn't our future, get used to seeing guys like these in a Bronco uniform - scary, isn't it?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Apparently we put in a waiver claim on Jimmy Clausen but the Ravens got him. Now working out Ponder. If Brock isn't our future, get used to seeing guys like these in a Bronco uniform - scary, isn't it?

I'm thankful we have Brock and not one of those guys as the guy behind Manning. I don't see the tryouts as an indictment of Brock, but the reality of Siemen being a developmental guy who won't be ready to see the field for another year or two.

[VonDoom]

I'm thankful we have Brock and not one of those guys as the guy behind Manning. I don't see the tryouts as an indictment of Brock, but the reality of Siemen being a developmental guy who won't be ready to see the field for another year or two.

Yeah, I think it's a commentary that Manning's injury could be longer, not a knock on Os. I think they don't want a 7th round rookie out there if Brock goes down. I'm just saying in future years, this is the caliber of QB that makes the rounds, especially for teams that don't have a set starter

[I Eat Staples]

Apparently we put in a waiver claim on Jimmy Clausen but the Ravens got him. Now working out Ponder. If Brock isn't our future, get used to seeing guys like these in a Bronco uniform - scary, isn't it?

Elway is too smart to let that happen. The only teams that trot out journeyman QBs to lead them into mediocrity are dysfunctional organizations like the Jets, Bills, Browns, etc. If Brock proves that he isn't the guy, Elway will do whatever it takes to draft someone who can be.

[Valar Morghulis]

I would bring in Freeman - I always thought he got a raw deal

[ShaneFalco]

who will be the QB if brock gets hurt?

[Yashahla17]

Apparently we put in a waiver claim on Jimmy Clausen but the Ravens got him. Now working out Ponder. If Brock isn't our future, get used to seeing guys like these in a Bronco uniform - scary, isn't it?

Lol very scary, but brock will be the answer, if the broncos can snatch up a steal late in the draft for depth and future competition then thats fine to.

[7DnBrnc53]

I don't watch these guys too much, but I wanted to see what they had to see about Osweiler's game against Chicago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4YLEg3Xc-E

Skip Baseless thinks that it's starting to be like it was in Indy four years ago, when Manning was slowly pushed out the door.

[Yashahla17]

I don't watch these guys too much, but I wanted to see what they had to see about Osweiler's game against Chicago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4YLEg3Xc-E

Skip Baseless thinks that it's starting to be like it was in Indy four years ago, when Manning was slowly pushed out the door.

I don't really remember how things unfolded with him, didn't he have the neck surgery and miss the whole season to be released before ever suiting up for the colts again?

[SR]

I don't really remember how things unfolded with him, didn't he have the neck surgery and miss the whole season to be released before ever suiting up for the colts again?

Good lord

[Northman]

Apparently we put in a waiver claim on Jimmy Clausen but the Ravens got him. Now working out Ponder. If Brock isn't our future, get used to seeing guys like these in a Bronco uniform - scary, isn't it?

Not really. It happens with every team and over the years ive seen it before. Sometimes it can be exciting watching young players become something and sometimes not so fun. I never get worried about when players retire or get old, its par for the course as a football fan.

[tomjonesrocks]

Apparently we put in a waiver claim on Jimmy Clausen but the Ravens got him. Now working out Ponder. If Brock isn't our future, get used to seeing guys like these in a Bronco uniform - scary, isn't it?

Ugh. Someone said Ponder and I thought it was a joke. Why do we want to look at him - to check out his wife? Guy is the epitome of a bust.

With Siemian why does someone else need to be signed?

[VonDoom]

Ugh. Someone said Ponder and I thought it was a joke. Why do we want to look at him - to check out his wife? Guy is the epitome of a bust.

With Siemian why does someone else need to be signed?

Because they don't trust a 7th round rookie development project to play if Os goes down. I guess they assume a veteran backup makes more sense.

Is Ponder's wife hot? Heading to Google now ...

[Joel]

Ponder's a recent first round pick, and young enough to be salvageable if good coaching if that's what he was missing in Minnesota. Not saying he'll suddenly go from the waiver wire to HoF in Denver, but coaching and protection can and often does make a huge difference in whether a first round QB booms or busts. Look at Young and Testaverde before and after leaving Tampa, or Plunkett before and after leaving NE (which replaced him with Grogan, then replaced HIM with first round pick Tony Eason, then Flutie, etc. etc....)

Fortunately, we have solid experienced QB and line coaches, and multiple receiving weapons, so as long as we find a QB with talent, he'll have all the support success requires.

[Northman]

Because they don't trust a 7th round rookie development project to play if Os goes down. I guess they assume a veteran backup makes more sense.

.

Thats exactly what it is.

[Cugel]

I thought he had a partial tear that requires at least 12 weeks to fully heal? Is the team rushing him by saying only the next couple of games, or does he not have a partially torn plantar fascia?

I know it's not uncommon for teams to not be super specific with injuries, but I'm guessing this is actually good news considering what the prognosis for a partial tear is.

"Plantar Fasciitis" IS a partially or completely torn foot tendon. The length of rehab depends on the severity of the injury. It's NOT an automatic 8 weeks. Among normal people that injury can take up to a year to heal. Among athletes, some don't miss any time, and others are out for a month or more.

I think it was David Bruton? who missed 3 games this season with a similar injury and he said it was like walking on broken glass just to walk on it. If the tendon is completely torn it doesn't hurt anymore, but then it's like walking on a wooden leg.

Peyton couldn't get anything at all on the ball against KC. We saw him barely able to throw the ball 4 yards to Ronnie Hillman. He throws with his legs and unless that is healthy he simply cannot throw the ball.

So, it's likely that he'll be out for more than the next 2 games. I wouldn't play him until the final game of the season unless Brock tanks the team.

If Brock plays well they might conceivably decide not to play Peyton, but it's unlikely. A healthy Peyton still gives them the best chance in the playoffs, but will he be completely healthy?

That's the question Kubiak has to answer. Is he really going to be 100% because we've seen that Peyton can't be effective if he's hurt?

The key part of this story is the following:


Anderson recommended Manning spend this week in a walking cast — a treatment for the torn plantar fascia in his left heel — followed by additional rehab strengthening of his leg. By going with a cast, Manning has elected a non-surgical procedure.

Beyond complete rest — a luxury rarely afforded during a season — doctors prescribe exercises, mobilization in a boot or cast, cortisone and platelet rich plasma injections. Surgery is an option, but not a common route.

A full natural rupture releases the pain. Surgery can require a recovery time of six to eight weeks, according to Dr. Ken Jung, a foot and ankle surgeon at Kerlan-Jobe Orthopadeic Clinic in Los Angeles. That would place Manning's season in jeopardy. The cast provides time to improve within the schedule's remaining window. After the removal of the cast, Manning will need time to regain his strength.

This recommendation means that 1) Manning would possibly be available to play later this season because 2) his tendon is not completely torn and he doesn't need surgery to re-attach it.

I'd be amazed though if Manning was rushed back and inserted into the starting lineup 2 weeks from now. There are 6 games left. He doesn't need to play in more than 1 of them to be ready for the playoffs (but only if he's completely healthy).

[Cugel]

Ponder's a recent first round pick, and young enough to be salvageable if good coaching if that's what he was missing in Minnesota. Not saying he'll suddenly go from the waiver wire to HoF in Denver, but coaching and protection can and often does make a huge difference in whether a first round QB booms or busts. Look at Young and Testaverde before and after leaving Tampa, or Plunkett before and after leaving NE (which replaced him with Grogan, then replaced HIM with first round pick Tony Eason, then Flutie, etc. etc....)

Fortunately, we have solid experienced QB and line coaches, and multiple receiving weapons, so as long as we find a QB with talent, he'll have all the support success requires.

I'd be surprised if he stays on the roster for the entire season though, unless somehow Brock gets hurt. This is really an emergency backup procedure more than anything, because with Peyton definitely out for the next few weeks, they're down to 2 QBs on the roster. Even before Peyton comes back to full health, they are going to cut Ponder again (baring further QB injuries).

For him, this is a try-out to get teams to take another look at him. It's more for his future than the present. I suppose the Broncos could sign him after the season if they liked him, if Peyton retires.

[TimHippo]

Ponder's a recent first round pick, and young enough to be salvageable if good coaching if that's what he was missing in Minnesota. Not saying he'll suddenly go from the waiver wire to HoF in Denver, but coaching and protection can and often does make a huge difference in whether a first round QB booms or busts. Look at Young and Testaverde before and after leaving Tampa, or Plunkett before and after leaving NE (which replaced him with Grogan, then replaced HIM with first round pick Tony Eason, then Flutie, etc. etc....)

Fortunately, we have solid experienced QB and line coaches, and multiple receiving weapons, so as long as we find a QB with talent, he'll have all the support success requires.

Plunkett and testsverde were #1 overall and steve young was #1 usfl/#1 NFL supplemental of all usfl players after the league folded. Ponder was a low first round reach that nobody else had rated that high.

Ponder is not in the same league as the #1overall guys you mentioned.

[VonDoom]

Ponder signed, per Rapoport. We have to make a roster move to clear space

[BroncoJoe]

Ponder signed, per Rapoport. We have to make a roster move to clear space

Interesting. You'd think if Manning was only going to be out another week or two, they'd ride with OZ and Siemian. Is this telling in any way? Maybe Manning is going to IR?

[UnderArmour]

Interesting. You'd think if Manning was only going to be out another week or two, they'd ride with OZ and Siemian. Is this telling in any way? Maybe Manning is going to IR?

The move is more of an indictment on Siemian not being ready to take the field. I doubt Manning gets placed on IR.

[BroncoJoe]

The move is more of an indictment on Siemian not being ready to take the field. I doubt Manning gets placed on IR.

I doubt that too, but it's strange we'd bring in a QB that isn't familiar with anything the Broncos run - and Siemian has been here since day one.

[VonDoom]

They said the Broncos were still high on Siemian, so I think it's just a veteran body as insurance

Also, Anunike to IR is the roster move

[Northman]

Ponder is just for veteran experience.

[Dzone]

Of course Manning is going to be back. Medical Marijuana works great on plantar fascists.

[turftoad]

Ponder is an emergency QB signing. That is all folks.

Manning will be back for last couple games and will play the last couple and the playoffs.

[BroncoWave]

Manning will be back for last couple games and will play the last couple and the playoffs.

For the Broncos sake I truly hope not. Especially the way the weather will be then. He was questionable in bad weather in his absolute prime. I shudder to think of how he will look on his very last legs. I will be surprised and disappointed if he winds up starting for us again.

[Joel]

I'd be surprised if he stays on the roster for the entire season though, unless somehow Brock gets hurt. This is really an emergency backup procedure more than anything, because with Peyton definitely out for the next few weeks, they're down to 2 QBs on the roster. Even before Peyton comes back to full health, they are going to cut Ponder again (baring further QB injuries).
It depends on Mannings recovery time, IMHO. After the KC game, Schefter had an ESPN article that quoted Eli (who had the same thing Week 4 a few years back) saying it took 3-4 weeks before the pain went away and he could do everything as well as usual. But Eli's younger, and was younger still then, plus they're brothers, not clones, so who knows?


For him, this is a try-out to get teams to take another look at him. It's more for his future than the present. I suppose the Broncos could sign him after the season if they liked him, if Peyton retires.
Yup, and if Manning's gone next year I doubt we ride with just Oz and a sophomore 7th rounder, so that's another reason to bring in Ponder now.


I'd be surprised if he stays on the roster for the entire season though, unless somehow Brock gets hurt. This is really an emergency backup procedure more than anything, because with Peyton definitely out for the next few weeks, they're down to 2 QBs on the roster. Even before Peyton comes back to full health, they are going to cut Ponder again (baring further QB injuries).
It depends on Mannings recovery time, IMHO. After the KC game, Schefter had an ESPN article that quoted Eli (who had the same thing Week 4 a few years back) saying it took 3-4 weeks before the pain went away and he could do everything as well as usual. But Eli's younger, and was younger still then, plus they're brothers, not clones, so who knows?


For him, this is a try-out to get teams to take another look at him. It's more for his future than the present. I suppose the Broncos could sign him after the season if they liked him, if Peyton retires.
Yup, and if Manning's gone next year I doubt we ride with just Oz and a sophomore 7th rounder, so that's another reason to bring in Ponder now.


Plunkett and testsverde were #1 overall and steve young was #1 usfl/#1 NFL supplemental of all usfl players after the league folded. Ponder was a low first round reach that nobody else had rated that high.

Ponder is not in the same league as the #1overall guys you mentioned.
Ponder was #12 overall, which is just shy of the top ten, not a "low" first. A LOW first reach would be a #1 SUPPLEMENTAL pick taken based on play in an inferior failed league (i.e. Steve Young.) Statistically and historically, there's not much performance difference between low and high first round QBs anyway; they generally succeed/fail at the same rate, which is about twice as high as 2nd rounders (though still not good) MUCH higher then 3rd rounders and almost infinitely higher than anyone lower.

There are ~200 college football teams, most with rosters about twice the size of ours. Granted, only ¼ of those are draft eligible each year, but that's still 5000 warm bodies: Only 5% get drafted, and <1% in the first round. NOBODY gets that far without far more than their fair share of talent, but they're still amateur players barely old enough to drink legally, so it usually takes a lot of pro coaching for even the most talented to gain the SKILLS of greatness.

Further, young QBs are at least as dependent on offensive teammates as the reverse; they need good receivers to find targets, good RBs to relieve figurative pressure with run support and literal pressure by picking up blitzers. More than anything, they need FIVE solid linemen to give them time to read defenses and make progressions when that takes longer because they're still learning how to do both on top of learning a new and usually much larger playbook to boot.

Otherwise, you get the David Carr Effect: Getting sacked >200 times in their first 4 seasons would leave ANYONE a broken shell of a QB. While I like Minnesota, I also know they're one of the leagues perennial trainwrecks, so I don't set my expectations too high, and most of my focus is on teams I like more, mainly Denver, so I don't know how bad a situation Ponder walked into there. But I do know it was only 4 years ago, so he could still be salvageable.

[GEM]

They said the Broncos were still high on Siemian, so I think it's just a veteran body as insurance

Also, Anunike to IR is the roster move

Man oh man, Anunike can't catch a break from injury. At some point, I'd love to see him at 100%.

[SR]

Man oh man, Anunike can't catch a break from injury. At some point, I'd love to see him at 100%.

Hell, he would love to see him at 100%.

[Yashahla17]

Ponder is an emergency QB signing. That is all folks.

Manning will be back for last couple games and will play the last couple and the playoffs.

Lol if so get ready for me to start calling him out again. I said i was done because he is done and not playing for my squad anymore. Let him come back and ruin the season and the chance at resigning brock and I'll never forgive elway, kubiak or manning.

[GEM]

I'm sure that would just ruin their lives. :lol:

[Yashahla17]

I'm sure that would just ruin their lives. :lol:

They will hear my voice.

[MOtorboat]

Lol if so get ready for me to start calling him out again. I said i was done because he is done and not playing for my squad anymore. Let him come back and ruin the season and the chance at resigning brock and I'll never forgive elway, kubiak or manning.

It's been 24 hours since you said you were done talking about Manning.

Got any more lies to feed us?

[Yashahla17]

It's been 24 hours since you said you were done talking about Manning.

Got any more lies to feed us?

Do you know what talking ABOUT someone means? Mentioning him regarding something specific someone said about him returning later isn't actually talking about him.

[Joel]

They will hear my voice.
That only "works" if "telling" Elway things he was predisposed to do anyway, like Tned and orange jerseys or me and hiring Kubiak, Dennison and Phillips (and even that one was fatally delayed a year; still can't believe he extended Fox, let alone how Fox repaid him.) But if Manning returning and sucking convinced you to take your ball and go home....

Wow, don't make me choose. :(


Do you know what talking ABOUT someone means? Mentioning him regarding something specific someone said about him returning later isn't actually talking about him.
Um... whom IS it talking about then? Oh, right: Oz, as always.

[BroncoWave]

Mentioning him isn't actually talking about him.

Oh...

[SR]

Do you know what talking ABOUT someone means? Mentioning him regarding something specific someone said about him returning later isn't actually talking about him.

If you mention him, you're talking about him.

If I said "I'm not talking about Yash anymore" but the next day I ask someone if Yash is ever going to stop posting here, I'm still talking about Yash. That's how it works.

[silkamilkamonico]

What are the chances that Yash follows through with the bet? He's already lost it 3 times now and he's still posting.

[GEM]

That's casino....no doubt in my mind at this point.

[BroncoWave]

That's casino....no doubt in my mind at this point.

So, a dupe account = ban right?

[MOtorboat]

Do you know what talking ABOUT someone means? Mentioning him regarding something specific someone said about him returning later isn't actually talking about him.

:pound:

Gold.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

That's casino....no doubt in my mind at this point.

Or could it be chef zambini?

[Northman]

Or could it be chef zambini?

Dont think its Zam, he had a tendency to write his posts out like song lyrics rather than straight sentences. lol

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Dont think its Zam, he had a tendency to write his posts out like song lyrics rather than straight sentences. lol

Or could it be WTE?

[tomjonesrocks]

Casino / JWalk did manage an occasional decent non-football post going back through the archives.

I've seen no evidence Yasho has anything positive to contribute whatsoever.

[MOtorboat]

Or could it be chef zambini?

It's not Zam.

[TimHippo]

It depends on Mannings recovery time, IMHO. After the KC game, Schefter had an ESPN article that quoted Eli (who had the same thing Week 4 a few years back) saying it took 3-4 weeks before the pain went away and he could do everything as well as usual. But Eli's younger, and was younger still then, plus they're brothers, not clones, so who knows?


Yup, and if Manning's gone next year I doubt we ride with just Oz and a sophomore 7th rounder, so that's another reason to bring in Ponder now.


It depends on Mannings recovery time, IMHO. After the KC game, Schefter had an ESPN article that quoted Eli (who had the same thing Week 4 a few years back) saying it took 3-4 weeks before the pain went away and he could do everything as well as usual. But Eli's younger, and was younger still then, plus they're brothers, not clones, so who knows?


Yup, and if Manning's gone next year I doubt we ride with just Oz and a sophomore 7th rounder, so that's another reason to bring in Ponder now.


Ponder was #12 overall, which is just shy of the top ten, not a "low" first. A LOW first reach would be a #1 SUPPLEMENTAL pick taken based on play in an inferior failed league (i.e. Steve Young.) Statistically and historically, there's not much performance difference between low and high first round QBs anyway; they generally succeed/fail at the same rate, which is about twice as high as 2nd rounders (though still not good) MUCH higher then 3rd rounders and almost infinitely higher than anyone lower.

There are ~200 college football teams, most with rosters about twice the size of ours. Granted, only ¼ of those are draft eligible each year, but that's still 5000 warm bodies: Only 5% get drafted, and <1% in the first round. NOBODY gets that far without far more than their fair share of talent, but they're still amateur players barely old enough to drink legally, so it usually takes a lot of pro coaching for even the most talented to gain the SKILLS of greatness.

Further, young QBs are at least as dependent on offensive teammates as the reverse; they need good receivers to find targets, good RBs to relieve figurative pressure with run support and literal pressure by picking up blitzers. More than anything, they need FIVE solid linemen to give them time to read defenses and make progressions when that takes longer because they're still learning how to do both on top of learning a new and usually much larger playbook to boot.

Otherwise, you get the David Carr Effect: Getting sacked >200 times in their first 4 seasons would leave ANYONE a broken shell of a QB. While I like Minnesota, I also know they're one of the leagues perennial trainwrecks, so I don't set my expectations too high, and most of my focus is on teams I like more, mainly Denver, so I don't know how bad a situation Ponder walked into there. But I do know it was only 4 years ago, so he could still be salvageable.

Regarding Ponder there's no Texas bias here, Ponder being a Texas boy, correct?
Ponder was a reach. Nobody else had him at #12 and even then he was the fourth quarterback taken in that draft. Basically it looks like the Vikings panicked when there was a run on mediocre quarterbacks (Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert).

As for Steve Young. He signed the richest contract in pro football history at the time with the USFL. He likely would have been #1 overall in the NFL had he not signed with the L.A. Express. At the time, a player who already signed with the USFL could not enter the NFL draft which is why he's not included in the NFL draft. The NFL held a special USFL/CFL Supplemental draft for those players. Most notable players from that draft:
1. Steve Young
2. Mike Rozier
3. Gary Zimmerman
4. Reggie White
11. Kevin Mack
15. Vaughn Johnson
21. William Fuller
42. Mel Gray
55. Gary Clark

In all likelyhood Steve Young would have been #1 overall in the NFL draft had the USFL not been in existence. And that USFL/CFL Supplemental draft was not your normal Supplemental draft where you have one or at most two NFL caliber players.

Even looking at the NFL trade value chart the 1st overall pick is worth 3000 points. The 12 overall is worth only 1200. That means at the very least you would have to trade 3 number one picks including the #12 overall for 1st overall.

In reality teams have to pay more. For the Washington football team to move up from #6 overall to #2 overall they had to trade 3 number 1s (inlcluding the #6) and a second round pick to get RGIII.

So non #1 overall 1st round picks are not the same as the #1 overall pick in regards to quarterbacks. If you look at it I reckon that #1 overall picks have a much much higher success rate. I'm sure Cugel can attest to that.

[TimHippo]

Do you know what talking ABOUT someone means? Mentioning him regarding something specific someone said about him returning later isn't actually talking about him.

Hmm, I think we need to go to the video replay on this one. <Throws red flag.>

[Joel]

Regarding Ponder there's no Texas bias here, Ponder being a Texas boy, correct?
None; didn't even know he was a Texan till you said so.


Ponder was a reach. Nobody else had him at #12 and even then he was the fourth quarterback taken in that draft. Basically it looks like the Vikings panicked when there was a run on mediocre quarterbacks (Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert).
Neither the fourth QB nor twelfth overall pick is exactly scraping the bottom of the barrell. The rule is any number <21 is written out; every overall pick who satisfies that rule is at least rated an exceptional talent, whether or not their later play justifies that a priori rating.


As for Steve Young. He signed the richest contract in pro football history at the time with the USFL. He likely would have been #1 overall in the NFL had he not signed with the L.A. Express. At the time, a player who already signed with the USFL could not enter the NFL draft which is why he's not included in the NFL draft. The NFL held a special USFL/CFL Supplemental draft for those players. Most notable players from that draft:
1. Steve Young
2. Mike Rozier
3. Gary Zimmerman
4. Reggie White
11. Kevin Mack
15. Vaughn Johnson
21. William Fuller
42. Mel Gray
55. Gary Clark
The '84 supplemental draft didn't just follow the regular drafts first round (as "first round supplemental pick" would normally mean) but the WHOLE draft: It was a month later—AFTER NFL teams had already taken >300 players. Those 84 elite CFL/USFL picks (the cream of TWO pro leagues) included all of three NFL HoFers and seven more Pro Bowlers: Those you listed are pretty much ALL of the 84 who ever amounted to anything.


In all likelyhood Steve Young would have been #1 overall in the NFL draft had the USFL not been in existence. And that USFL/CFL Supplemental draft was not your normal Supplemental draft where you have one or at most two NFL caliber players.
Right, it had ten, out of 84 taken in three rounds from two pro leagues.


Even looking at the NFL trade value chart the 1st overall pick is worth 3000 points. The 12 overall is worth only 1200. That means at the very least you would have to trade 3 number one picks including the #12 overall for 1st overall.
Yes, but there's a wide range of talent and value between Steve Young and Ryan Leaf, and most picks in the top of the first round are closer to Young than Leaf.


In reality teams have to pay more. For the Washington football team to move up from #6 overall to #2 overall they had to trade 3 number 1s (inlcluding the #6) and a second round pick to get RGIII.
In reality, THAT was a reach, not because RGIII wasn't a first round or even #2 overall talent, but because spending THREE first round picks—including one just outside the top five—just to get one inside the top three was absurdly overpaying. This just in: Dan Snyder's a moron who's been through half a dozen coaches (two of whom won a combined five SBs) in just sixteen seasons that only managed four winning seasons and two playoff wins.


So non #1 overall 1st round picks are not the same as the #1 overall pick in regards to quarterbacks. If you look at it I reckon that #1 overall picks have a much much higher success rate. I'm sure Cugel can attest to that.
Partly because of those discussions with Cugel, I have, and they don't: Statistically, first round QBs are about equally likely to succeed whether #1, #32 or whatever. And Young was a #1 SUPPLEMENTAL pick, not #1 overall; even if he'd been the latter, Ponder's still closer to him than to #1 overall picks Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch and JaMarcus Russell.

Let's be clear: I'm not saying Ponder's inevitably our next franchise QB who will lead the team to unprecedented glory; Oz could very well be that guy, in which case the only (and unlikely) role for Ponder would be backup, even if that ranked him with Young and Rodgers among the all-time greatest backups. I'm only saying that just because a QB taken in the top half of the first round hasn't become a franchise QB by his 4th season doesn't mean he can't or won't.