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VonDoom
11-19-2015, 03:18 PM
As a unit, the Broncos' offensive line may have the worst balance I've ever seen. Blockers are constantly lunging at guys in pass pro. Their balance ranges from "not ideal" to "drunken sailor on payday" to "drunken sailor on payday who accidentally stepped on a giant pile of marbles.


Harris has to quit lunging at guys. His head is out over his toes as he's punching and he's got no chance. Harris has never been the player Mathis was in his prime, but he's played enough to not embarrass himself with stuff you see from swing tackles playing in the Sun Belt


Oh, and one last thing. Astute readers may have noticed that Chiefs didn't rush more than four in any of those GIFs. There was no need to.

If you're a masochist, I urge you to click on this link and look at some of these gifs. He points out a couple of times where we left EIGHT guys in to block against four pass rushers and were still beat handily. Oof.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2015/word-muth-mile-high-meltdown

silkamilkamonico
11-19-2015, 03:28 PM
A bunch of f'n clowns on our offense. It's just too bad we didn't trade a 1st and 2nd round pick along with Shaq Barrett to get Joe Tyhomas to come in and solve that entire cluster****.

Krugan
11-19-2015, 03:41 PM
This is exactly why i feel this early win streak was just a fluke.

And i dont see a change at QB will amount to a different result.

Adding a first time starter behind this line that cant block their shadow, might make mannings9 touchdowns look all world.

MOtorboat
11-19-2015, 05:38 PM
I've been told that they are a very good offensive line.

How do I reconcile that with this?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-19-2015, 05:43 PM
I've been told that they are a very good offensive line.

How do I reconcile that with this?

I don't think I've heard that this year. I think they've had about 6 quarters of good football.

MOtorboat
11-19-2015, 05:48 PM
I don't think I've heard that this year. I think they've had about 6 quarters of good football.

I've read that they're fine to good many times on this board and have been ridiculed, as have others, for pointing out there are issues outside of the quarterback.

BroncoJoe
11-19-2015, 06:01 PM
I've read that they're fine to good many times on this board and have been ridiculed, as have others, for pointing out there are issues outside of the quarterback.

So - out of 63 plays, they target 4. What is that, like 6%? I'd guess you look at all the plays from the best offense in the NFL, you'd find 6% that look like those examples.

No one is saying that the OL is fantastic, however having a QB that can actually execute the offensive game-plan is going to help the OL.

I guess we'll see on Sunday. I hope I'm right, because that will equal a win. Others probably hope they're right which will equal a loss, which is pathetic.

BroncoWave
11-19-2015, 06:08 PM
I've been told that they are a very good offensive line.

Bull shit. Not one person has said this.

MOtorboat
11-19-2015, 06:09 PM
So - out of 63 plays, they target 4. What is that, like 6%? I'd guess you look at all the plays from the best offense in the NFL, you'd find 6% that look like those examples.

No one is saying that the OL is fantastic, however having a QB that can actually execute the offensive game-plan is going to help the OL.

I guess we'll see on Sunday. I hope I'm right, because that will equal a win. Others probably hope they're right which will equal a loss, which is pathetic.

I hope Osweiler is the magical elixir too.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-19-2015, 06:24 PM
I've read that they're fine to good many times on this board and have been ridiculed, as have others, for pointing out there are issues outside of the quarterback.

I don't recall that, but maybe you've seen posts I haven't. My only disagreement with you, Joel, and Cugel was the idea that there was no problem with Manning. Yes, the line is bad, but Manning has only played well in a couple of games this year.
Although, I do give him credit for putting together some fantastic 4th quarter drives.
I have said I believed he would only get better as the year wore on, but his health has decided otherwise. Manning just doesn't have the arm talent to play at less than 100%. This last game reminded me too much of the Colts playoff loss last year, and none of us want to see that anymore.

BroncoJoe
11-19-2015, 06:39 PM
I hope Osweiler is the magical elixir too.

I don't think you do.

MOtorboat
11-19-2015, 07:11 PM
I don't think you do.

This team is 7-2 Joe. I don't want an embarrassing Cutler-style meltdown and I hope Osweiler is the guy for the future. I'd rather lose in the playoffs than not reach the playoffs, so of course I'm rooting for him to be good.

But it's also his first damn game, and people are saying he's going to fix the offensive line, the running game and the wide receivers. To me, it's just a little much to ask from a first time starting quarterback.

VonDoom
11-19-2015, 07:30 PM
So - out of 63 plays, they target 4. What is that, like 6%? I'd guess you look at all the plays from the best offense in the NFL, you'd find 6% that look like those examples.

No one is saying that the OL is fantastic, however having a QB that can actually execute the offensive game-plan is going to help the OL.

I guess we'll see on Sunday. I hope I'm right, because that will equal a win. Others probably hope they're right which will equal a loss, which is pathetic.

I think you must realize that these weren't the only four bad plays of the game, or of the season for that matter, since there has been plenty of discussion about how bad the line is.

As I said in last week's game thread, Os at least is mobile, so there's a chance he can run away from pressure if the line breaks down. I worry that he's going to be focused on his reads and not be able to run as much, especially in the early going. Either way, no amount of mobility can make up for the fact that the line is getting constantly beat. We had max protect on and guys were in the backfield right away when it wasn't even a blitz. He's going to have to be really good to make that line look decent.

I'm most disappointed in Mathis, who, despite his PFF grade, doesn't pass the eye test to me. I thought we were getting a lockdown LG, and he seems to have jumped the shark. Neither tackle is good either, though they couldn't account for two guys going out with season ending injuries. We're just going to see how far we can go with these guys, but I expect the line to priority one (and probably two and three) this offseason.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-19-2015, 07:33 PM
I think you must realize that these weren't the only four bad plays of the game, or of the season for that matter, since there has been plenty of discussion about how bad the line is.

As I said in last week's game thread, Os at least is mobile, so there's a chance he can run away from pressure if the line breaks down. I worry that he's going to be focused on his reads and not be able to run as much, especially in the early going. Either way, no amount of mobility can make up for the fact that the line is getting constantly beat. We had max protect on and guys were in the backfield right away when it wasn't even a blitz. He's going to have to be really good to make that line look decent.

I'm most disappointed in Mathis, who, despite his PFF grade, doesn't pass the eye test to me. I thought we were getting a lockdown LG, and he seems to have jumped the shark. Neither tackle is good either, though they couldn't account for two guys going out with season ending injuries. We're just going to see how far we can go with these guys, but I expect the line to priority one (and probably two and three) this offseason.

Agreed, and hopefully qb doesn't become a top priority either.

slim
11-19-2015, 08:12 PM
I've been told that they are a very good offensive line.

How do I reconcile that with this?

You should probably stop listening to the people that told you that

BroncoWave
11-19-2015, 08:20 PM
You should probably stop listening to the people that told you that

It's good advice in general not to listen to the voices in your head. :)

MOtorboat
11-19-2015, 08:44 PM
You should probably stop listening to the people that told you that

I don't want to put Joe on ignore.

Shazam!
11-19-2015, 08:55 PM
I'm sorry but this is not news.

The Broncos have the worst OLine in the League.

This has been said going back to last year and was the question going into the Season.

BroncoJoe
11-20-2015, 07:48 AM
I don't want to put Joe on ignore.

LOL - I'm glad!

I know they are not very good at all. I am curious to see if they are better with a mobile QB, running the kind of offense Kubiak invisions and what the OL was built to do. That's all. I don't think they're overall as bad as some say they are.

Yashahla17
11-20-2015, 11:06 AM
The offensive line is not good! Duh to that.

They haven't gotten a fair shake running a pistol offense that nobody the entire off season trained for. People act like a brand new unit switching schemes in week 3 helps anybody on offense. They will get back to playing real football starting this weekend going forward.

GEM
11-20-2015, 11:55 AM
I can't recall anyone saying this line was "good", I recall that behind this terrible line an immobile, injured Manning would look worse than he actually was...you can get away with one or the other, but can't get away with both. I think all those that pulled for Os were saying that his mobility may be able to mask some of the huge deficiencies on the line, not that by him just coming into the game, those deficiencies were fixed.

BroncoWave
11-20-2015, 01:53 PM
I can't recall anyone saying this line was "good", I recall that behind this terrible line an immobile, injured Manning would look worse than he actually was...you can get away with one or the other, but can't get away with both. I think all those that pulled for Os were saying that his mobility may be able to mask some of the huge deficiencies on the line, not that by him just coming into the game, those deficiencies were fixed.

Can someone please tattoo this post to the back of Mo's hand or something so it doesn't have to be explained to him again?

NightTerror218
11-20-2015, 02:02 PM
I can't recall anyone saying this line was "good", I recall that behind this terrible line an immobile, injured Manning would look worse than he actually was...you can get away with one or the other, but can't get away with both. I think all those that pulled for Os were saying that his mobility may be able to mask some of the huge deficiencies on the line, not that by him just coming into the game, those deficiencies were fixed.

I think that the mobility, extend a play a few more second do will help passing game and routes open up. Like Sanders deep, can Oz hit those passes we shall see.

Northman
11-20-2015, 02:15 PM
I'm sorry but this is not news.

The Broncos have the worst OLine in the League.



Well, technically they dont.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2015&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

BroncoJoe
11-20-2015, 02:20 PM
Well, technically they dont.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2015&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

LOL. Right around the middle in nearly every category.

Northman
11-20-2015, 02:24 PM
LOL. Right around the middle in nearly every category.

Over the weeks the line has gone up and down on the list but there are some teams on that list where their QB's are playing quite well and yet their Oline's are near the bottom of the list. Denver has its fair share of problems on the Oline everyone knew that but there has been a massive overreaction to how bad they actually are by quite a few people. I expect there to still be problems with a new inexperienced QB but i also expect to see Brock make some plays on his own whereas Manning simply could not for various reasons including his decline and injuries.

BroncoJoe
11-20-2015, 02:27 PM
My point has always been that our QB play was having a seriously negative effect on the OL.

They're not going to be world beaters with Brock, but I believe we'll see a markedly better group with him in there.

Cugel
11-20-2015, 03:03 PM
This article is exactly what all the critics have been saying all year. But, all the Manning bashers want to say is "Peyton suxs!"

I'd say this is the reality Manning has been dealing with all season:


We'll start with the Broncos' first passing play of the game, and if I were just writing about Michael Schofield at right tackle (79), this play does a fine job of paraphrasing his entire game. Justin Houston is a great player, so it was going to be a tough task for someone who came into the year as a third tackle, but Denver was probably hoping Schofield would be a bit more competitive. Schofield's biggest issue is that he got beat with inside moves very early and so often that I'm not sure that he wasn't the worst Bronco on the field Sunday.

I'm not sure if Schofield saw something on film, and he thought he could catch Houston off-guard, but this clearly went poorly. The other thing I don't like about what Schofield did is that if you have an immobile quarterback, the last thing you want to have happen is to get him flushed out of the pocket. If you get beat around the edge, the quarterback can step up and make a play, but if you're getting beat underneath and forcing a statuesque pocket passer outside of his comfort zone, you kill the play.


Of course Schofield wasn't the only one to have trouble with inside moves. Left tackle Ryan Harris (68) is so bad here, I can't tell if this is a designed tackle-end stunt from Kansas City, or if Harris overset outside so much that Tamba Hali just had to make a hard move inside. I mean, I know you want to sell the run, but shuffling two steps outside, ducking your head, throwing your hands, and hoping for the best probably isn't coached in OTAs.

The disheartening thing about this play is that the Chiefs rushed four, the Broncos kept eight in to block, and the Chiefs won decisively. They flushed Manning out of the pocket and caused the sack/fumble. What do you do as a playcaller when you can't block 8-on-4?

You'll notice that when the Packers run game disappeared (Eddie Lacy's picture is now on a milk carton somewhere in Green Bay with the caption "have you seen this man?") suddenly the best QB in football, Aaron Rogers can't seem to win any games and they've lost 3 straight.

And compared to 39 year old Manning, Rogers is like Usain Bolt out there.

Football is not that complicated: you win from the inside out! Starting with the OL, you RUN THE BALL.

This makes it possible to do play action, which forces the LBs and S's to hesitate for a second, which allows the QB more time to complete passes down-field.

The inability to run makes any offense completely one-dimensional. The defense just pins their ears back and rushes straight at the Qb, completely ignoring the run.

Manning has been under intense pressure all year. He's been "beaten up" in the immortal words of Kubiak.

And so he inevitably got hurt.

This isn't Manning's fault or even Kubiak's. This one falls squarely on John Elway. He refused to do the Joe Thomas deal - which means he thought this current OL was good enough somehow to get it done.

Otherwise you are just throwing away Manning's last season, and giving up a chance to win the SB with a great defense this season.

Now they are committed to making it work with THIS OL, featuring Ryan Harris at LT, and Michael Schofield at RT.

They are both beyond horrible this season. And for reasons which escape me they might not be the worst offenders. Evan Mathis has certainly not played anything like a pro-bowler, and Louis Vasquez has done much the same thing that this writer talks about LUNGING at the defender, who then side-steps and rushes unblocked straight at Manning - that's what happened on one of the picks.

At this point, I'm glad that Osweiler is in there. He's so much more mobile that perhaps it will help this putrid offensive line out. But, make no mistake:

You Cannot Compensate For a Weak Offensive Line By Having a More Mobile QB in the Playoffs!

In the playoffs ANY weaknesses will be ruthlessly exploited. So, unless this horrible mess of the OL gets straightened out, Denver will be one-and-done in the playoffs - regardless of who their QB is.

GEM
11-20-2015, 04:14 PM
My point has always been that our QB play was having a seriously negative effect on the OL.

They're not going to be world beaters with Brock, but I believe we'll see a markedly better group with him in there.

I think neither did each other any favors.

The line is still going to have major issues, but being able to move around the pocket and escape pressure will alleviate some, but definitely not all.

tripp
11-20-2015, 04:24 PM
Just out of curiosity, when was the last time our O-line was considered superior, the upper echelon in the NFL? Like 2006? With Tom Nalen and Co.?

NightTerror218
11-20-2015, 04:28 PM
Just out of curiosity, when was the last time our O-line was considered superior, the upper echelon in the NFL? Like 2006? With Tom Nalen and Co.?

Super Bowl run...until super bowl game itself. Stats were crazy and the little amount of pressure Manning ever saw.

I Eat Staples
11-20-2015, 05:58 PM
This isn't Manning's fault or even Kubiak's. This one falls squarely on John Elway. He refused to do the Joe Thomas deal - which means he thought this current OL was good enough somehow to get it done.

Joe Thomas' current team, the Browns, have an atrocious line WITH Joe Thomas. 1 star player and 4 scrubs doesn't make a superbowl winning line. That would have been an AWFUL trade for Denver because we'd be trading valuable draft picks and still not winning the Superbowl.


You Cannot Compensate For a Weak Offensive Line By Having a More Mobile QB in the Playoffs!

Russel Wilson and Aaron Rodgers have been doing that for years. Seattle and Green Bay have always had horrible lines, but they've been bailed out by great QB play. Not to imply that Brock is that caliber of player, but your statement is hyperbole.

BroncoJoe
11-20-2015, 06:14 PM
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

Good grief.

Northman
11-20-2015, 06:58 PM
Joe Thomas' current team, the Browns, have an atrocious line WITH Joe Thomas. 1 star player and 4 scrubs doesn't make a superbowl winning line. That would have been an AWFUL trade for Denver because we'd be trading valuable draft picks and still not winning the Superbowl.



Russel Wilson and Aaron Rodgers have been doing that for years. Seattle and Green Bay have always had horrible lines, but they've been bailed out by great QB play. Not to imply that Brock is that caliber of player, but your statement is hyperbole.

Indeed.

NightTerror218
11-20-2015, 07:07 PM
Joe Thomas' current team, the Browns, have an atrocious line WITH Joe Thomas. 1 star player and 4 scrubs doesn't make a superbowl winning line. That would have been an AWFUL trade for Denver because we'd be trading valuable draft picks and still not winning the Superbowl.

Russel Wilson and Aaron Rodgers have been doing that for years. Seattle and Green Bay have always had horrible lines, but they've been bailed out by great QB play. Not to imply that Brock is that caliber of player, but your statement is hyperbole.

Browns have Alex mack too

Simple Jaded
11-21-2015, 10:10 PM
Just out of curiosity, when was the last time our O-line was considered superior, the upper echelon in the NFL? Like 2006? With Tom Nalen and Co.?

1998.

Simple Jaded
11-21-2015, 10:36 PM
This isn't just a talent issue, I hope John Benton is available this offseason.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-21-2015, 11:50 PM
Due to the way our line has been performing this year rumors are circulating, suggesting Obama wants to use them for Homeland Security border patrol.

Simple Jaded
11-22-2015, 12:08 AM
Due to the way our line has been performing this year rumors are circulating, suggesting Obama wants to use them for Homeland Security border patrol.

Now that you mention the border, maybe the Broncos should hire some No Comprende's to play RB, very elusive.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-22-2015, 01:01 AM
:laugh: