Practice / press conference notes, etc. - week 11 (Bear's week) [Archive]

Denver Native (Carol)

11-16-2015, 04:03 PM

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 26m

Kubiak: "Our defense was fighting their tail off ... I was so impressed (with the D) yesterday."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 28m

Emmanuel Sanders is expected to "have a normal week" this week. He sustained a finger injury Sunday, Kubiak said.

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3m

#Broncos' Kubiak on if Brock could start beyond this week:
"We are all in this week. I haven't gone past today."

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 12m

#Broncos Kubiak talked at length w Manning today. Told him he wants him focus on recovery. They will meet again and assess next step.

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 24m

Big step for Kubiak today. He is players coach. But made mistake in letting Manning play. Took it out of his hands today.That was right move

Troy Renck Retweeted
Denver Broncos ‏@Broncos 28m

Kubiak on Ward ejection: “Another frustrating penalty. Two guys going after it after a tough [TD]. We can’t lose our captain on the field."

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 28m

Talib back in the building and back at work.. #Broncos ..

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 30m

#Broncos really like Siemian.. He will be the backup...

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 32m

You will see a different looking offense this Sunday. Osweiler will line up primarily under center. Boots, play-actions, stretches, etc.

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 33m

Kubiak acknowledges that Peyton still wants to play. Praises him for his competitiveness. But a coach has to make that decision. Not player.

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 37m

Broncos were at the same crossroads a year ago when Manning played with a strained quad. Should have rested him.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 39m

Kubiak: "This is a little bit different for him [Osweiler], but I know he'll do a great job in his preparation."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 39m

Kubiak said "the grind of the season" has worn Manning down.

Denver Native (Carol)

11-16-2015, 04:06 PM

Lindsay Jones ‏@bylindsayhjones 45m

Kubiak: All of our attention will be to get Peyton back healthy. ... I know that's the best decision for him.

Lindsay Jones ‏@bylindsayhjones 1h

More @snakestakes: "A healthy Peyton Manning in December is better than a banged up Peyton Manning right now in November."

Denver Native (Carol)

11-16-2015, 04:31 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 6m

Brock "Peyton has been extremely supportive. Said to let him know if he could help. Peyton is the leader of this team"

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 7m

Osweiler "I have been preparing like I would start. That's how have to approach it. The more I play the more I learn"

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 8m

Osweiler "my teammates have been very supportive.... Last night getting reps helped my confidence."

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 9m

Brock "I am the starter this week at Chicago. That's all it is. I will support Peyton"

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 11m

Trevor Siemian said practice and scouts rep have helped him

VonDoom

11-16-2015, 04:46 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 10m10 minutes ago

Manning "I want to take advantage of this week and try to get healthy overall". Got MRI on rib cage and waiting for results

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 8m8 minutes ago

Peyton: "I think anybody in this locker room would tell you that they'd be disappointed if they couldn't play."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 6m6 minutes ago

.@VernonDavis85: "I think it's a great opportunity for Brock to come in and show what he can do. I'm not worried at all."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 3m3 minutes ago

.@VernonDavis85 said he wasn't surprised by the news. "Peyton is hurt and the next guy has to step up. That's how it has to be."

Denver Broncos ‏@Broncos 3m3 minutes ago

#Manning: "This is a new offense for both [@bosweiler17] and I; he's gotten a lot of reps through camp & practices. ... That always helps."

Denver Broncos ‏@Broncos 10m10 minutes ago UCHealth Training Center

#Manning: "I told [@bosweiler17] I am here for him as a resource if he needs me, but I'm not going to be one of those 'extra voices.'"

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 3m3 minutes ago

Aqib Talib: "He seems like he's superman but he's really like anyone else. As a team we knew Peyton was banged up."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 2m2 minutes ago

Aqib Talib said he stayed in touch with his teammates all last week. "Back to work."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 2m2 minutes ago

Talib: "We've seen a lot of Brock. We're confident. We know what he can do."

Denver Broncos ‏@Broncos 2m2 minutes ago

#Talib: "It's not going to just be on Brock. There will be 10 other guys out there with him."

BroncoJoe

11-16-2015, 04:58 PM

Brock sure seems like a stand up guy - let's hope he can play as well as he talks.

Denver Native (Carol)

11-16-2015, 05:08 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 8m

#broncos Manning said dealing w multiple injuries. That isn't one thing. Left foot,and rib cage issue. Needs to use time to get healthy

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 31m

#broncos Manning "I need to use this week and dedicate time to active rest if you will. It's disappointing that I am hurt"

Nomad

11-16-2015, 07:09 PM

Good to see the teammates supporting Osweiler. I know it's tough to sit, but I hope Peyton focuses on helping Osweiler rather than pouting. This is what I gathered from the news here.

Denver Native (Carol)

11-16-2015, 08:00 PM

Joel

11-16-2015, 08:24 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 58m

Say what you want about Manning's season. Was true professional today. Faced the media in terrible circumstances. Made no excuses. #Broncos

Manning: 'I think the week can help me'

Peyton Manning talks about how this week will help him get healthy, as he will not being playing against the Bears.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Manning-I-think-the-week-can-help-me/71a532d8-1be8-4350-a0eb-8614dae30644
With all due respect: You've got at least THREE SEPARATE injuries by my count; will a SINGLE week really be enough? Come back to soon and aggravate any of them and that's pretty much season-ending; it's the kind of logic that got us into this mess. It's not like the protection's going to improve sooo much in that lone week. I wish Kubes had had the resolve to go with his gut and bench Manning LAST week, so the injury didn't get worse and he had TWO weeks to heal up before Belicheat comes to town.

Slick

11-16-2015, 08:54 PM

11-16-2015, 09:07 PM

So much better watching that than reading 800 tweets that say the same thing. Thanks Carol.

I'm sure all 800 of those tweets are posted multiple times in multiple threads here.

tripp

11-16-2015, 09:40 PM

Slick

11-16-2015, 10:05 PM

I'm sure all 800 of those tweets are posted multiple times in multiple threads here.

I hate it.

11-16-2015, 10:07 PM

I hate it.

Me too

GEM

11-16-2015, 10:21 PM

Brock sure seems like a stand up guy - let's hope he can play as well as he talks.

Couple off the field things i love about Brock: he's really involved with Rocky Mountain Childrens Hospital,he often tweets about kids thereand how they are his inspiration. Also, he signed every single person's paper at last season's scrimmage. He was out with the fans at the tunnel for a good hour to hour and a half.

Denver Native (Carol)

11-16-2015, 11:12 PM

Might sound crazy, but couldn't we of just said it in the locker room that Oz is starter without telling the media? Or is that impossible to do so? Just thinking it would've made the Bears prepare for Manning as opposed to Oz.

Today Mike Florio said that it would have been easier for Fox/Gase to prepare for Peyton, as much of the offense with Peyton is the same as when they were here. However, with Oz, who will be running more of a Kube's type offense, they really do not have anything to go on to prepare for.

tripp

11-16-2015, 11:50 PM

Today Mike Florio said that it would have been easier for Fox/Gase to prepare for Peyton, as much of the offense with Peyton is the same as when they were here. However, with Oz, who will be running more of a Kube's type offense, they really do not have anything to go on to prepare for.

Gotcha, makes sense. Must be hard for even Fox/Gase to gauge how Oz will perform with meaningful play time as they've never really seen that from him with their time here. I don't think I'd consider playing against Oakland in week 17 meaningful play time either. I'm excited for this game.

Yashahla17

11-17-2015, 12:01 AM

Fox and gase has no clue about what brocks going to do, he was just a developmental guy behind manning.

MOtorboat

11-17-2015, 12:47 AM

Fox and gase has no clue about what brocks going to do, he was just a developmental guy behind manning.

I hope Osweiler can cash the checks you're writing.

Yashahla17

11-17-2015, 01:08 AM

Me too

Denver Native (Carol)

11-17-2015, 02:08 PM

I hope Osweiler can cash the checks you're writing.

More than likely they will bounce

Yashahla17

11-17-2015, 08:53 PM

More than likely they will bounce

You think the old man can cash any checks?

Denver Native (Carol)

11-18-2015, 11:23 AM

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- It may be simple math, but that doesn’t mean Denver Broncos coach Gary Kubiak has to like it.

"I’ll tell you, and I’ve said it: This is the most negative runs I’ve been around," Kubiak said. "There isn’t really any way to talk about that beyond you can’t have it. We have to fix it; we have to get to work and get that changed."

With quarterback Brock Osweiler making his first regular-season start for the Broncos on Sunday in Chicago, it would help if they had some kind of run game behind their soon-to-be 25-year-old quarterback. At least part of the reason Peyton Manning has been pulled out of the lineup with shoulder, foot and rib injuries is the punishment he has taken because defenses could simply come after him with little regard for the Denver run game.

rest - http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/16463/no-matter-who-plays-quarterback-broncos-offense-needs-better-run-game

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 12:15 PM

We're actually one point underdogs in this game. Can you have imagined that two weeks ago?

tripp

11-18-2015, 01:40 PM

Ravage!!!

11-18-2015, 01:43 PM

Today Mike Florio said that it would have been easier for Fox/Gase to prepare for Peyton, as much of the offense with Peyton is the same as when they were here. However, with Oz, who will be running more of a Kube's type offense, they really do not have anything to go on to prepare for.

That's weird. They have tons of tape from Houston and from Baltimore last year. I would think they could get a very good idea as to what Kubiak will be doing.

Ravage!!!

11-18-2015, 01:43 PM

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

11-18-2015, 01:44 PM

The funny how with Peyton starting we were favorites to win games against scrub teams like the Bears, but now that Brock is starting we're under dogs. They do realize that our defense is the same right? The main reason why we've won most of our games? Hmmm.

Well, Chicago has been hot as of late and Manning's 5 completion 4 Interception performance is still fresh on their minds. Additionally, a first time starting qb on the road could spell disaster.

Our defense has had a few chinks in the armor too, but with Talib coming back I think we shut the bears down.

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 01:48 PM

TV maps are up for this week:

http://506sports.com/nfl.php?yr=2015&wk=11

tripp

11-18-2015, 01:55 PM

The Bears aren't scrubs. They are playing pretty good football right now.

I'm a little embarrassed to say I still follow Cutler's career quite a bit since he left Denver, so I've been watching most of his games the past couple years including this year. I'm not sold on them playing good football. Langford and Zach Miller TD's last week were both 60+ TD's, meaning the Defense botched both plays (Zach Miller TD was so flukey, the two defenders hit each other). Nick Foles couldn't hit the back side of a barn last Sunday which is why he's benched for Case Keenum. They've managed to beat Oakland by 1 pt, and KC by 2 pts, and SD by 3 pts. They're doing enough, to win. Just like we have been, I woudn't say we were playing good football.

Well, Chicago has been hot as of late and Manning's 5 completion 4 Interception performance is still fresh on their minds. Additionally, a first time starting qb on the road could spell disaster.

Our defense has had a few chinks in the armor too, but with Talib coming back I think we shut the bears down.

I'll agree first time starting QB could be disaster which explains why we're not favored, but again how bad could it be compared to last week? Atleast KC's defense is actually good. I have a really good feeling our defense will give us plenty of opportunities to score this Sunday. Chicago's O-line has been so bad for the last couple of years, it's amazing how they haven't done much to address it. Also the Bear's defense on 3rd downs I believe is the worst in the NFL. I might be drinking the Orange Kool Aid here, but I feel confident. Barring a complete melt down by the defense that is.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

11-18-2015, 02:04 PM

I'm a little embarrassed to say I still follow Cutler's career quite a bit since he left Denver, so I've been watching most of his games the past couple years including this year. I'm not sold on them playing good football. Langford and Zach Miller TD's last week were both 60+ TD's, meaning the Defense botched both plays (Zach Miller TD was so flukey, the two defenders hit each other). Nick Foles couldn't hit the back side of a barn last Sunday which is why he's benched for Case Keenum. They've managed to beat Oakland by 1 pt, and KC by 2 pts, and SD by 3 pts. They're doing enough, to win. Just like we have been, I woudn't say we were playing good football.

I'll agree first time starting QB could be disaster which explains why we're not favored, but again how bad could it be compared to last week? Atleast KC's defense is actually good. I have a really good feeling our defense will give us plenty of opportunities to score this Sunday. Chicago's O-line has been so bad for the last couple of years, it's amazing how they haven't done much to address it. Also the Bear's defense on 3rd downs I believe is the worst in the NFL. I might be drinking the Orange Kool Aid here, but I feel confident. Barring a complete melt down by the defense that is.

Agreed

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 02:05 PM

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 7m7 minutes ago

No Demarcus Ware at Broncos practice.

Cameron Wolfe ‏@CameronWolfe 1m1 minute ago

Along with Ware, Emmanuel Sanders, Peyton Manning, Owen Daniels, Antonio Smith and Vance Walker not practicing. #Broncos

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 46s47 seconds ago

#broncos Emmanuel Sanders not practicing bc of ankle. Also Vance Walker not practicing. He's new addition to those limited

Denver Native (Carol)

11-18-2015, 02:07 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 4m

No DeMarcus Ware out here practicing As said before believe a push for him to play this week #broncos

11-18-2015, 02:09 PM

Nicki Jhabvala &rlm;@NickiJhabvala 7m7 minutes ago No Demarcus Ware at Broncos practice. Cameron Wolfe &rlm;@CameronWolfe 1m1 minute ago Along with Ware, Emmanuel Sanders, Peyton Manning, Owen Daniels, Antonio Smith and Vance Walker not practicing. #Broncos Troy Renck &rlm;@TroyRenck 46s47 seconds ago #broncos Emmanuel Sanders not practicing bc of ankle. Also Vance Walker not practicing. He's new addition to those limited

Joel is going to lose his mind when he sees this.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

11-18-2015, 02:26 PM

No Walker or Smith...doesn't that leave us with 4 defensive linemen for the game if they don't play?

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 02:29 PM

No Walker or Smith...doesn't that leave us with 4 defensive linemen for the game if they don't play?

I wouldn't be too worried (yet) about who's not practicing. They often give guys Wednesday off. If Kubiak says later that they might not play, that's a different story.

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 02:30 PM

Lindsay Jones ‏@bylindsayhjones 11m11 minutes ago

John Fox on a conference call now with Denver media. "I miss you guys," he says. Yeah, I bet.

Cameron Wolfe ‏@CameronWolfe 11m11 minutes ago

John Fox said he and Adam Gase are very familiar with Brock Osweiler. Praised him for being a smart guy.

Lindsay Jones ‏@bylindsayhjones 7m7 minutes ago

John Fox said he expects to see the Broncos offense play from under center more this week with Osweiler.

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 8m8 minutes ago

John Fox says Bears prepared to see more play-action, bootlegs with Osweiler in for Manning.

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 6m6 minutes ago

John Fox on Adam Gase's HC prospects: "I think it'd be well-deserved. ...There are a lot of deserving guys and I think Adam is one of them."

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 03:25 PM

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 6m6 minutes ago

Everyone who practiced today had full participation; no one was limited.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 6m6 minutes ago

Vance Walker has a shoulder injury. Antonio Smith has a hip injury. Both did not practice today. Kubiak hopes both are out there tomorrow.

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 6m6 minutes ago

Kubiak believes that Emmanuel will play this week. Said will practice when team returns outside off the turf

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 6m6 minutes ago

Kubiak, on the offense on what might change with Osweiler at QB: "We've got to do the things we're doing better ... that's the focus."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 5m5 minutes ago

Kubiak: the running game "has been poor the last two weeks."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 6m6 minutes ago

Kubiak: "finding effective ways to run the ball" will be the key to getting the offense back on track.

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 5m5 minutes ago

Kubiak: "We have an offense in place that we have to run no matter who's at quarterback, and we have to do it better right now."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 5m5 minutes ago

Kubiak on Osweiler: "Just watching him today, very comfortable with what we're asking him to do."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 5m5 minutes ago

Kubiak said Osweiler has "improved a great deal" since the summer. "He's a much improving player & his confidence level is growing."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 5m5 minutes ago

Kubiak: OL shuffle "is best for us, in what we're doing."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 5m5 minutes ago

Kubiak: Max Garcia "is very much an improving player." Wants to get the OL to where it uses 7, not 8, on the gameday active 46.

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 4m4 minutes ago

Kubiak said Manning is "just rehabbing. Not even in the meetings."

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 03:27 PM

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 4m4 minutes ago

Kubiak: Ware "has improved" ... "there's some progress there." Might get some on-field work by the end of this week.

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 3m3 minutes ago

Kubiak asked if he thinks Peyton would be available by the Patriots game. "I'm locked in on Chicago right now."

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 2m2 minutes ago

Kubiak: "Brock needs to cut it loose and go play." He doesn't want Brock to play too conservatively..

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 1m1 minute ago

Kubiak said he emphasized to the offensive players that not only should they rally around Osweiler, but they need to play better themselves.

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 1m1 minute ago

Kubiak said MRI of Manning's ribs came back Ok.. Hasn't changed his treatment this week.. #Broncos

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 50s51 seconds ago

Kubiak: "Cody Latimer is a much more confident player today than he was 2 weeks ago because he caught some balls."

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 03:36 PM

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 3m3 minutes ago

6-foot-8 @bosweiler17 walks up and says, "I don't really need this podium."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 4m4 minutes ago

Brock Osweiler: "I really haven't changed anything. I'm doing the some preparation. ... I've prepared for this moment for a very long time."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 3m3 minutes ago

Osweiler: "It's a dream come true, it really is." Says he watched the Broncos as a kid growing up in Kalispell, Mont.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 3m3 minutes ago

Osweiler: "I have a job to do, and this team has a job to do."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 3m3 minutes ago

Osweiler: "I think everybody I've ever met in Montana I've heard from this week."

tripp

11-18-2015, 03:39 PM

Darren McKee ‏@dmac1043 1m1 minute ago
Re gase knowing his secrets "shoot I don't even know what I have"

Too true, I think all John Fox and Gase can do is expect a lot more boot legs and play action.

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 03:42 PM

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 4m4 minutes ago

Osweiler said he went to QB coach Greg Knapp and asked him how he would game plan against him if he was a defensive coordinator.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 3m3 minutes ago

Osweiler: "I'm very excited to be playing football in the regular season again ... This is something that you dream about your whole life."

Denver Broncos ‏@Broncos 5m5 minutes ago

.@bosweiler17: "I'm not out to prove anything. I'm solely focused on going into Chicago and getting a win."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 3m3 minutes ago

If Osweiler plays like he handles a press conference, he and the @Broncos ought to do well.

BroncoJoe

11-18-2015, 03:44 PM

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a bit more excitement / positive energy coming from these interviews?

Denver Native (Carol)

11-18-2015, 03:50 PM

Elway Access: Osweiler to start first game

In his weekly interview, John Elway talks about Peyton Manning resting, Brock Osweiler starting and facing the Bears this week.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Elway-Access-Osweiler-to-start-first-game/d0f1d238-b5c0-43e1-a1e9-aa5a583caa06

MOtorboat

11-18-2015, 03:51 PM

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a bit more excitement / positive energy coming from these interviews?

You're projecting.

BroncoJoe

11-18-2015, 03:55 PM

You're projecting.

Perhaps, or maybe you're also biased. It's a conundrum.

Valar Morghulis

11-18-2015, 03:56 PM

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a bit more excitement / positive energy coming from these interviews?

#hype

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 04:00 PM

Vic Lombardi ‏@VicLombardi 8m8 minutes ago

One thing Brock will have to learn on the fly - the clutch drive. Peyton was clutch in several late drives this season (KC, Det, Minn).

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 9m9 minutes ago

#broncos Virgil green appreciated "that Brock prepared each week like would play even w hall of Famer in front of him. Guys notice that."

Denver Broncos ‏@Broncos 5m5 minutes ago

#Siemian: "From the time I got here, one of my goals was stay engaged, stay involved in the game plan." #DENvsCHI

Denver Native (Carol)

11-18-2015, 05:49 PM

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

11-18-2015, 06:00 PM

#hype

#buzz

GEM

11-18-2015, 06:05 PM

I wouldn't be too worried (yet) about who's not practicing. They often give guys Wednesday off. If Kubiak says later that they might not play, that's a different story.

Antonio Smith is a hip injury and I think she said Vance Walker was a foot. She said no announcement on seriousness, but that both could be back in rotation by Sunday.

GEM

11-18-2015, 06:09 PM

Ahhh a shoulder for Walker. She also wasn't sure why the Broncos practiced inside today since we have crazy wind here and it's often like that in Chicago.

MOtorboat

11-18-2015, 06:38 PM

Shoulders are a good thing to have when you're a football player.

:ntl:

GEM

11-18-2015, 06:40 PM

Shoulders are a good thing to have when you're a football player.

:ntl:

They probably come in handy once in awile. :lol:

Buff

11-18-2015, 06:44 PM

Shoulders are a good thing to have when you're a football player.

:ntl:

That's it - you've officially hit rock bottom.

MOtorboat

11-18-2015, 06:46 PM

That's it - you've officially hit rock bottom.

I'm not going to take this from you.

Dzone

11-18-2015, 07:11 PM

Bears are favored Sunday! -1.5.
Awesome!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

11-18-2015, 07:13 PM

This reminds me of the things I like about Jay Cutler. The top of the list is:

1. He's not in Denver.

VonDoom

11-18-2015, 07:32 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 17m

#Broncos announce they have waived Shelley Smith to make room for Brenner... Smith is good guy. Hope catches on somewhere else

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 21m

#Broncos claim center Sam Brenner off waivers. Was cut by #Dolphins on Tuesday..

Smith may be a good guy, but that was a bust of a signing. I think we have a dead money hit for him next year of $500K, something that Elway almost never does. Between signing Smith and trading for Gradkowski, this was a rough off season, especially for the line. I wonder why they're having issues ...

tomjonesrocks

11-18-2015, 08:02 PM

This reminds me of the things I like about Jay Cutler. The top of the list is: 1. He's not in Denver.

Lol. I can't believe in hindsight how pissed I was that he was traded. Lowest moment of the franchise! I was convinced but I had company here.

I didn't watch much of that win streak in protest - still the only full games I missed since the NFL Ticket existed. I canceled my service then relented just as the losses piled up.

I really played the whole thing like a chump. If I'd had half a brain I would have put my name in instantly for season tickets as the wait list really got short.

That said Cutler is becoming more likable by the day again. I really think he's matured and humbled - though I really don't see the talent jumping off the screen like I used to.

slim

11-18-2015, 08:09 PM

spikerman

11-18-2015, 08:11 PM

I really played the whole thing like a chump. If I'd had half a brain I would have put my name in instantly for season tickets as the wait list really got short.
That's how I did it. I was only on the list for half the normal time.

MOtorboat

11-18-2015, 08:15 PM

Cutler is a chump. Best move McDaniels made.

slim

11-18-2015, 08:33 PM

Cutler is a chump. Best move McDaniels made.
Word

tomjonesrocks

11-18-2015, 08:36 PM

Cutler is a chump. Best move McDaniels made.

I won't judge you for holding "Denver is a 6" against him forever.

He made a huge douchey mistake there.

Simple Jaded

11-18-2015, 08:55 PM

I won't judge you for holding "Denver is a 6" against him forever.

He made a huge douchey mistake there.

Broncos fans were burning his jersey before he was ever traded, that's pretty douchey too, his only mistake was being honest.

I wasn't offended because I realize that he wasn't talking about me, just Broncos fans in general. Ya know, the same group of fans that have booed the likes of Peyton Manning and Jake Plummer and rented billboards for Tim Tebow?

MOtorboat

11-18-2015, 09:14 PM

I won't judge you for holding "Denver is a 6" against him forever.

He made a huge douchey mistake there.

Oh no. I was thoroughly disgusted with the three straight late season collapses.

Way more embarrassing, frustrating and lame than any postseason loss people whine about around here.

tripp

11-18-2015, 09:17 PM

Lol. I can't believe in hindsight how pissed I was that he was traded. Lowest moment of the franchise! I was convinced but I had company here.

I didn't watch much of that win streak in protest - still the only full games I missed since the NFL Ticket existed. I canceled my service then relented just as the losses piled up.

I really played the whole thing like a chump. If I'd had half a brain I would have put my name in instantly for season tickets as the wait list really got short.

That said Cutler is becoming more likable by the day again. I really think he's matured and humbled - though I really don't see the talent jumping off the screen like I used to.

I was pretty upset when Cutler was traded. Thought at the time he was going to be a top 5 QB, just needed some time. Loved the pieces we had in Eddie Royal, B-Marsh, Scheffler, and Hillis. I remember that off-season I watched a conference basically welcoming Kyle Orton and Chris Sims onto the team, I felt the world was ending.

The thing I remember about Cutler the most, was the spat between him and Rivers. I thought that was going to be a huge rivalry for years to come.

How crazy is it that 4 years later we'd have Peyton Manning on the team? And then a year after that we'd make the SB. Incredible.

Simple Jaded

11-18-2015, 09:24 PM

Cutler is a world class aszhole, people like that don't just change, I'd as surprised as anyone if this "likeable" thing lasts.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

11-18-2015, 09:37 PM

Cutler is a world class aszhole, people like that don't just change, I'd as surprised as anyone if this "likeable" thing lasts.
It'll be likeable until he gets pick happy again.

BroncoJoe

11-19-2015, 08:06 AM

It'll be likeable until he gets pick happy again.

Sunday?

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 12:47 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3m3 minutes ago

Manning had started 57 straight game for #broncos, a team record. Osweiler hasn't started since 2011 Las Vegas Bowl

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

11-19-2015, 01:02 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 3m3 minutes ago

Manning had started 57 straight game for #broncos, a team record. Osweiler hasn't started since 2011 Las Vegas Bowl

Elway doesn't have more consecutive starts?

BroncoJoe

11-19-2015, 01:03 PM

Elway doesn't have more consecutive starts?

Yeah - I found that somewhat hard to believe.

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 01:20 PM

Elway doesn't have more consecutive starts?

Yeah - I found that somewhat hard to believe.

There's a graphic I saw on Twitter right after this post that showed the most consecutive games played. Elway only had 47 at his highest (89-92) and one other time of 41 (85-87). Don't know whether that was injury related or if he sat in a meaningless game or whatever.

https://twitter.com/schube13/status/667397444615847937

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 01:28 PM

Thin Air always has a midweek preview of our opponent. Here's something underrated to look out for on Sunday:

And then there’s special teams. We haven’t discussed this a lot regarding the Broncos, but their special teams ranking in FO DVOA has improved with each week. The Broncos are ranked fifth after nine games. Where are the Bears ranked? Dead last. Their biggest problem is kickoffs, which FO rated at -16.4. Robbie Gould has just 26 touchbacks on 48 attempts and the Bears have given up 591 yards on kick returns, two returned for touchdowns. On one hand, Brandon McManus has 30 touchbacks on 47 attempts, but part of that goes to a couple of bad kicks on his part. When it comes to kick returns, though, the Broncos have given up just 282 yards and nobody has return a kick for a touchdown.

He also says that the Bears are 31st against the run this year. If there's any week for our run game to start working, this should be it.

http://in-thinair.com/2015/11/19/midweek-musings-broncos-and-qbs-and-bears-oh-my/

11-19-2015, 01:48 PM

He also says that the Bears are 31st against the run this year. If there's any week for our run game to start working, this should be it.

Said the same about Cleveland when Denver played them and the run game was improved but still less than stellar.

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 02:21 PM

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 19m19 minutes ago

Not practicing: DeMarcus Ware, Vance Walker, Antonio Smith, Peyton Manning. Emmanuel Sanders is here, but doesn't have a helmet on.

Lindsay Jones ‏@bylindsayhjones 18m18 minutes ago

Looks like Emmanuel Sanders only doing walk-thru portion of practice again for Broncos. Look for him to do more tomorrow if team is outside.

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 02:22 PM

Said the same about Cleveland when Denver played them and the run game was improved but still less than stellar.

We had 152 rushing yards in that game, and 4.6 YPC. I'd say we were pretty solid.

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 02:34 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 2m2 minutes ago

Didn't expect Ware to play this week.That he wasn't at practice all but assures he won't.Needs to rest and to be eased back in down stretch

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 36s36 seconds ago

Ware told me last week he has "structural issue" in back.That means more than spasms obviously.No reason to rush him back. Has to get right

11-19-2015, 02:54 PM

We had 152 rushing yards in that game, and 4.6 YPC. I'd say we were pretty solid.

Yeah I suppose you're right.

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 03:32 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 4m4 minutes ago

Kubiak said Ware, Smith, Walker didn't practice. Expects Sanders to be full go. He's not sure on Walker and Smith.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 4m4 minutes ago

Kubiak said he had expected Antonio Smith to practice today.

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 4m4 minutes ago

Kubiak said DeMarcus Ware has been ruled out vs. Chicago.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 4m4 minutes ago

Kubiak said a decision hasn't been made as to whether Manning & Ware would make the trip to Chicago.

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 3m3 minutes ago

Kubiak on Sam Brenner: "We've been looking for a guy who can snap and play guard, too." Been wanting to suit up 7 O-linemen instead of 8.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 3m3 minutes ago

Kubiak said Sam Brenner can work at center as well as at the guard spots. "Good player, good find, hopefully will help us out."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 2m2 minutes ago

Kubiak said Ronnie Hillman will start at RB again.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 1m1 minute ago

Kubiak: "the most important thing" for Manning & Ware is medical attention in treatment, not necessarily being on hand at the game.

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 51s51 seconds ago

Shaquil Barrett to start in place of DeMarcus Ware again. "Every game out Shaq has become a better player," Kubiak said.

Canmore

11-19-2015, 03:33 PM

There's a graphic I saw on Twitter right after this post that showed the most consecutive games played. Elway only had 47 at his highest (89-92) and one other time of 41 (85-87). Don't know whether that was injury related or if he sat in a meaningless game or whatever.

https://twitter.com/schube13/status/667397444615847937

Pretty sure it is injury related. Iirc Elway had missed 12 starts in his career before he missed the 4 in a row during the 98 season.

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 03:34 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 4m4 minutes ago

Kubiak said Ware, Smith, Walker didn't practice. Expects Sanders to be full go. He's not sure on Walker and Smith.

Okay, NOW we can start to worry about our d-line depth

Also, re: Brenner. We want someone who can play C and G. Isn't that what Garcia is supposed to be for?

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 03:40 PM

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 2m2 minutes ago

Dennison: Osweiler did a good job "staying alive" & "handling off-schedule plays," but also did well at managing the offense vs. KC.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 1m1 minute ago

Dennison: the offense hasn't been adjusted this week, reminds everyone it's the "2015 Broncos."

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 04:03 PM

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 9m9 minutes ago

Tj Ward said he was fined for punch in KC game

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 4m4 minutes ago

#broncos TJ Ward was fined 10k for throwing punch at Maclin

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 9m9 minutes ago

Chris Harris on facing John Fox's Bears: "It'll be great to see him, but he's the enemy."

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 10m10 minutes ago

Antonio Smith still dealing w hip issue. Not worried about missing Sunday's game yet. But will know more tomorrow

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 04:53 PM

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 11m11 minutes ago

Von Miller: "I've got full faith in Brock. He's done excellent throughout the season."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 10m10 minutes ago

Von Miller, on John Fox: "I was his first pick, so he loved me before I loved him."

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 9m9 minutes ago

Von Miller said that when the Broncos faced Carolina -- John Fox's previous team -- in 2012, Fox didn't make a big deal of the his return.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 8m8 minutes ago

Von Miller says the Bears' offense isn't similar to the one Adam Gase had in Denver. "It looks different."

Denver Broncos ‏@Broncos 8m8 minutes ago

.@Millerlite40: "We've all got a percentage in whose team this is."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 8m8 minutes ago

Von Miller said he believes the 1-year suspension "will be the turning point" for Aldon Smith.

VonDoom

11-19-2015, 04:53 PM

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 6m6 minutes ago

Wade Phillips, on cutting the discipline penalties from his defense: "I've been talking, berating, whatever it takes."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 5m5 minutes ago

Wade Phillips said "there's no excuse" for the post-play penalties. "You hate to learn the hard way, but we did."

Denver Broncos ‏@Broncos 4m4 minutes ago

Phillips: "The last two games we haven't done well in the first half. That's a key for us [this week]." #DENvsCHI

Denver Broncos ‏@Broncos 3m3 minutes ago

Phillips on Ware's absence: "Anytime you lose a great player other people have to come in and play." #DENvsCHI

Yashahla17

11-19-2015, 11:38 PM

Thin Air always has a midweek preview of our opponent. Here's something underrated to look out for on Sunday:

He also says that the Bears are 31st against the run this year. If there's any week for our run game to start working, this should be it.

http://in-thinair.com/2015/11/19/midweek-musings-broncos-and-qbs-and-bears-oh-my/

They will be charged up though. Looking forward to the game though. I think were going to look pretty good. Looking forward to talib vs jeffreys match up, and were going to have to be all over bennett. But as far as rankings that means nothing. We have some pretty aweful rankings ourselves.

Yashahla17

11-19-2015, 11:39 PM

Yashahla17

11-19-2015, 11:41 PM

Okay, NOW we can start to worry about our d-line depth

Also, re: Brenner. We want someone who can play C and G. Isn't that what Garcia is supposed to be for?

Maybe they figured out he's just a guard going forward.

Canmore

11-20-2015, 02:48 AM

Those spasms are going to be with ware for atleast 4 weeks.

It would be nice if you could put ONE sentence together. Now you are a doctor.

11-20-2015, 07:38 AM

They will be charged up though. Looking forward to the game though. I think were going to look pretty good. Looking forward to talib vs jeffreys match up, and were going to have to be all over bennett. But as far as rankings that means nothing. We have some pretty aweful rankings ourselves.

This is a Zam post without the CAPS LOCK.

Yashahla17

11-20-2015, 10:43 AM

This is a Zam post without the CAPS LOCK.

Explain.

11-20-2015, 10:49 AM

Explain.

No.

Yashahla17

11-20-2015, 11:01 AM

Oh aight, just a gnat being a gnat. Understandable.

11-20-2015, 11:30 AM

Oh aight, just a gnat being a gnat. Understandable.

Says the person that says "aight".

VonDoom

11-20-2015, 01:36 PM

Cameron Wolfe ‏@CameronWolfe 16m16 minutes ago

#Bears trio of stars RB Matt Forte, WR Alshon Jeffery and OLB Pernell McPhee all listed as questionable for Sunday vs. #Broncos

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 15m15 minutes ago

Emmanuel Sanders is practicing during the viewing period.

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 13m13 minutes ago

Don't see Antonio Smith or Vance Walker practicing. Not good sign

VonDoom

11-20-2015, 01:38 PM

If Smith and Walker really can't play, our DL is down to five guys total - the three starters, plus Kilgo (who's been inactive most of the time lately) and Anunike (who has played five snaps on defense all year). Not encouraging.

LawDog

11-20-2015, 02:02 PM

It's quite nice not having the whole "Peyton can't win under 40 degrees" crap. And Brock has probably seen a snowflake or two growing up in Montana.

Is it Sunday yet?

NightTerror218

11-20-2015, 02:05 PM

Cameron Wolfe &rlm;@CameronWolfe 16m16 minutes ago

#Bears trio of stars RB Matt Forte, WR Alshon Jeffery and OLB Pernell McPhee all listed as questionable for Sunday vs. #Broncos

Nicki Jhabvala &rlm;@NickiJhabvala 15m15 minutes ago

Emmanuel Sanders is practicing during the viewing period.

Troy Renck &rlm;@TroyRenck 13m13 minutes ago

Don't see Antonio Smith or Vance Walker practicing. Not good sign

Eddie Royal has been ruled out.

VonDoom

11-20-2015, 02:46 PM

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 6m6 minutes ago

Vance Walker, Emmanuel Sanders and Antonio Smith are QUESTIONABLE for Sunday.

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 5m5 minutes ago

Sanders "did a little bit today," Kubiak said.

Troy Renck ‏@TroyRenck 5m5 minutes ago

Kubiak said Manning was out at practice watching. But he and Ware will not travel. Has been plan to focus entirely on rehab

VonDoom

11-20-2015, 03:41 PM

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 16m16 minutes ago

.@DeMarcusWare: "It makes more sense to be here and get two straight days treatment rather than stand on the sideline in 28-degree weather."

Nicki Jhabvala ‏@NickiJhabvala 13m13 minutes ago

.@DeMarcusWare: "It’s tough. We both want to play. I have talked to (Manning) & told him that the team is going to need us, but not at 80%."

NightTerror218

11-20-2015, 04:26 PM

Nicki Jhabvala &rlm;@NickiJhabvala 16m16 minutes ago

.@DeMarcusWare: "It makes more sense to be here and get two straight days treatment rather than stand on the sideline in 28-degree weather."

Nicki Jhabvala &rlm;@NickiJhabvala 13m13 minutes ago

.@DeMarcusWare: "It’s tough. We both want to play. I have talked to (Manning) & told him that the team is going to need us, but not at 80%."

That is awesome to come from Ware to manning. As in, don't be selfish they will need us at 100% for the playoffs not 80% and make it worse.

11-20-2015, 06:24 PM

Troy Renck &rlm;@TroyRenck 5m5 minutes ago Kubiak said Manning was out at practice watching. But he and Ware will not travel. Has been plan to focus entirely on rehab

Or been forced to do nothing but.

Yashahla17

11-21-2015, 12:42 AM

Simple Jaded

11-21-2015, 07:37 PM

Kilgo sucks, there's a reason is always inactive.

Yashahla17

11-22-2015, 12:38 AM

He just has no discipline

11-22-2015, 08:49 AM

He just has no discipline

Neither do Malik Jackson, Von Miller, Aqib Talib, or TJ Ward apparently but they all still start. I imagine with Kilgo it's a talent thing.

I remember in preseason people were real high on Kilgo and I made a comment about wanting to see what he could do against first string players on Sunday, not second or third stringers on Saturday and I got nailed to the cross for it. Now he's not playing in the regular, healthy rotation. Must not be because of talent though.

Yashahla17

11-22-2015, 10:49 AM

If its a talent thing then why is he still on the roster.

11-22-2015, 10:53 AM

If its a talent thing then why is he still on the roster.

Define "on the roster". Since he's been healthy, he's been inactive.

Yashahla17

11-22-2015, 11:00 AM

He is on the roster.... What kind of question is define on the roster. He's signed and he's on the team. If he was just a nothing somebody else would have his spot. Kilgo not having discipline is referring to gap control and etc, not losing his head and getting undisciplined type penalties.

Yashahla17

11-22-2015, 11:01 AM

Joel

11-22-2015, 12:26 PM

Define "on the roster". Since he's been healthy, he's been inactive.
False: He played each of the first 5 games before we began deactivating him. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts

That doesn't prove he sucks; both Walker and Smith are veteran DTs (not rookies) and veteran STARTERS, but that means their odometers read higher than the rookies. Speaking of people getting "nailed to the cross," weren't YOU hammering nails Week 8 when I dared suggest we might need Kilgo active as a rotational NT by seasons end?

Fortunately, someone with the courtesy to address rather than deride the question offered the FO link: It's hard to be sure who rotates at NT absent review of all our defensive snaps (and not easy then) but it looks like Kilgo did it during Wolfes suspension, and afteward Walker slid in since he didn't have to rotate with Smith at Wolfes spot, so Kilgo was deactivated. He's a late round rookie, so green and likely has a low ceiling, but made some plays the first month. Were he useless we wouldn't have wasted even a late draft pick.

Joel

11-22-2015, 12:31 PM

Playing NT in the 3-4 you cannot have poor gap discipline or else you'll be having the team get gutted. Kilgo will be find though. The talent is there, the brains doesn't match it yet though.

If i read correct were going to be thin on the DL today unless kilgo is active.
Having said all the above, your throbbing bulge for any and every player <25 is rapidly going from cute to annoying. Being in college the same time you were doesn't ensure a guy's a HoFer, just as graduating before you doesn't mean he's ready for his pension. One of the nice things about the NFL is that all players are (physically) adults on arrival, but can develop and improve >4 years before their careers end.

11-22-2015, 12:39 PM

I never said he sucked Joel.

spikerman

11-22-2015, 01:09 PM

Nice opening drive!

Joel

11-22-2015, 04:33 PM

I never said he sucked Joel.
Then please clarify the meaning of "inactive because of talent" and "define 'on the roster.'" I realize who said Kilgo sucks—and who implied it. I also recall who dismissed questions on whom we had to rotate with Sly, insinuated just asking is superficial ignorance. Speaking of which: Did you ever get that tweet YOU asked for on his injury?

11-22-2015, 04:38 PM

Then please clarify the meaning of "inactive because of talent" and "define 'on the roster.'" I realize who said Kilgo sucks—and who implied it. I also recall who dismissed questions on whom we had to rotate with Sly, insinuated just asking is superficial ignorance. Speaking of which: Did you ever get that tweet YOU asked for on his injury?

I never implied he sucked either. He hasn't been getting in games because he's not as good as everyone ahead of him when they're healthy. Doesn't mean he sucks. He's also very young.

And no, I saw Sly back on the field and that answered my question.

Joel

11-22-2015, 05:31 PM

I never implied he sucked either. He hasn't been getting in games because he's not as good as everyone ahead of him when they're healthy. Doesn't mean he sucks. He's also very young.
Someone said he sucked, someone else countered that he's just undisciplined, then you noted we have many undisciplined STARTERS but he's not even ACTIVE, but "must not be because of talent though." After first saying all the preseason praise against 3rd stringers was less important than what he did in real games. The second person then asked "if it's a talent thing then why's he on the roster" and you replied "define 'on the roster.' Since he's been healthy, he's been inactive."

That last statement isn't even true (he's been healthy all season, but played its first 5 games) but the full exchange clearly shows strong doubts he has ANY talent, else what WERE you saying? What you JUST said merely a paraphrased what I'd said (i.e. "He hasn't been getting in games because he's not as good as everyone ahead of him when they're healthy. Doesn't mean he sucks. He's also very young."="That doesn't prove he sucks; both Walker and Smith are veteran DTs (not rookies) and veteran STARTERS.")

And no, I saw Sly back on the field and that answered my question.
Did that make it retroactively not worth asking, too? Just trying to get a feel for the rules: When asking's stupid and when it's wise.

11-22-2015, 05:35 PM

Joel. Kilgo is not as good as the rest of the lineman in our rotation. That doesn't mean he sucks. And he has been game day inactive, right?

And why can I not ask for the status of a player that went off the field due to injury? You're being beyond childish right now.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor

11-22-2015, 07:09 PM

Kilgo played better than I thought he would today.

Yashahla17

11-23-2015, 02:06 AM

Kilgo played better than I thought he would today.

Agreed, he has massive potential. Could be a steal with where we got him. Hoping he puts it all together.

Joel

11-23-2015, 05:49 AM

Joel. Kilgo is not as good as the rest of the lineman in our rotation. That doesn't mean he sucks.
All true, hence that was my reply to your comments not even hinting any of it. People were debating whether he's bad or just undisciplined: You said talent's kept him from joining our many undisciplined starters on the field, that you reserved judgement on his preseason hype until he played real games, and that he's only nominally on the roster. Context matters; that reads like taking sides, not offering a third option. If you meant what I said in reply to, fine, but it was poorly expressed.

And he has been game day inactive, right?
Recently, yes, hence the earlier questions you dismissed, but he's not been inactive not all the time "since he's been healthy:" He's played in over half our games.

And why can I not ask for the status of a player that went off the field due to injury? You're being beyond childish right now.
You can ask anything, but asking about THAT after earlier saying we're fine at NT and THEN asking if it's my "pet issue this year" is hypocritical. Is it YOUR pet issue this WEEK? You worried about having no active NTs AFTER Sly was hurt when we DID have one active; I worried he'd GET hurt back when we had NO other NTs active. Maybe if you'd considered rather than mocking the question then you'd have noticed the answer I was given then and reassured by yesterday.

Regardless, mocking a sincere question due to sheer personal animus forfeited all right to claim the mature highground; later ASKING the same question previously derided as ignorantly superficial just made it comical. And since you've stated we agree on Kilgo, that makes this just another "adult" catfight, so I'm bowing out of it.

11-23-2015, 07:26 AM

Joel

11-23-2015, 01:52 PM

I don't have any issues with the depth at tackle Joel. I saw a guy go down, no updates given by the broadcast crew, and decided to ask someone who is a twitter ninja if he had seen anything. Then I saw Sly on the field and my question was answered. It really is as simple as that.

If you could just be straightforward with what you're trying to say instead of tap dancing here, there, and everywhere else before attempting to make your point, you wouldn't get in these "adult cat fights" because your point would be clear.
That's an odd criticism since your original comments said many things, but NONE of those you later said they meant, else I wouldn't have replied by CLEARLY making each of those points. Details and illustrations provide clarity. I have many discussions with many people here without any catfights; the petty spats are solely due to a few grown men behaving like an adolescent girls clique. You've stated we agree on Kilgo, so now we're just debating style points for the sake of doing so; you're welcome to the last word on that.