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Denver Native (Carol)
10-28-2015, 06:03 PM
Two undefeated teams. Two of the game's top quarterbacks.

It's a matchup primed for television and debates.

But Sunday's matchup between the 6-0 Broncos and 6-0 Packers is just another, according former Broncos receivers Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey and former quarterback Jake Plummer.

The three, who joined a roundtable with The Denver Post at the Broncos' practice facility Wednesday, spoke candidly about their expectations for their former team Sunday. They spoke candidly about the criticism being thrown at quarterback Peyton Manning and the offense. They spoke about their experiences, as players and now spectators.

The noise, they say, is unrelenting. But it's often misdirected.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_29037362/former-broncos-rod-smith-plummer-and-mccaffrey-talk

Joel
10-28-2015, 08:14 PM
Former Broncos Rod Smith, Plummer, McCaffrey....
"One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does NOT belong." :tongue: Sundays game won't be like SB XXXII either. I wish I could doubt that, but it's just not possible: Our LINE is almost the exact opposite of what it was then, and Elway and Davis could do no better with this group than Manning and Anderson/Hillman/NextManup can.

Oh, and screw Plummers
Yeah, they're not blowing teams out, but as a fan, I don't want to watch that.

Yeah, as a fan of the SPORT I want a suspenseful unpredictable game—IF (and ONLY if) I don't CARE who wins; as a fan of any team IN the game, I want us to blow out the opponents so fast and badly both sides bench all starters by the second quarter: Then I can stop worrying about the win and start simply ENJOYING it. That's part of what made the '98 season so much fun: From the start, the sole uncertainty was whether and which records would fall. Super Bowl XXXII was more fun AFTER the fact, but DURING the games, SB XXXIII was far more fun, because the outcome was never in doubt, and Elway had already driven a stake through his demons heart.

Varying degrees of loyalty to four teams in as many divisions means there are very few games where I'm genuinely indifferent to the outcome (unless the Broncos, Texans, Cowboys or Vikings are playing, I usually root for a tie: It's the only way NOBODY I loathe wins.) Plummer just reminded us (yet again) he was never truly a Bronco, only a sellsword; not a DENVER fan, just a FOOTBALL fan (except he turned his back on the game, too.)

chazoe60
10-28-2015, 08:21 PM
I freaking love Jake Plummer.

GEM
10-28-2015, 09:54 PM
Don't talk shit about Plummer..Dude got freakin shafted by Shanny. Shit just went downhill after he got benched for the little bitch, Cutler.

Joel
10-28-2015, 10:17 PM
Don't talk shit about Plummer..Dude got freakin shafted by Shanny. Shit just went downhill after he got benched for the little bitch, Cutler.
FOUR turnovers. At home. Against a wildcard team. With Lepsis and Nalen protecting him. And without Lelies phantom end zone PI on a 40 yd Hail Mary and Champs 100+ yd Int, we don't even get THAT far: That's a 17+ pt swing in a game we won by 10. Drafting Cutler was the EFFECT, not CAUSE; don't put the cart before the Bronco.

Plummer had the talent to become an elite QB, but starting out with the perennially awful Cards put him in permanent panic mode any and every time he had to make a play rather than just manage a game. Like so many QBs before and since. Including Cutler following in the harried and hurried footsteps of Grossman and Orton.

This, btw, is why throwing a QB with NO NFL starts out there behind a patchwork rebuilt line would be the worst thing possible for his career, and team.

MOtorboat
10-29-2015, 01:33 AM
FOUR turnovers. At home. Against a wildcard team. With Lepsis and Nalen protecting him. And without Lelies phantom end zone PI on a 40 yd Hail Mary and Champs 100+ yd Int, we don't even get THAT far: That's a 17+ pt swing in a game we won by 10. Drafting Cutler was the EFFECT, not CAUSE; don't put the cart before the Bronco.

Plummer had the talent to become an elite QB, but starting out with the perennially awful Cards put him in permanent panic mode any and every time he had to make a play rather than just manage a game. Like so many QBs before and since. Including Cutler following in the harried and hurried footsteps of Grossman and Orton.

This, btw, is why throwing a QB with NO NFL starts out there behind a patchwork rebuilt line would be the worst thing possible for his career, and team.

Shut the **** up.

Valar Morghulis
10-29-2015, 02:47 AM
Shut the **** up.

I am curious as to what part of that you disagreed with?

SR
10-29-2015, 05:56 AM
Shut the **** up.

I don't care about his first paragraph, but the rest was pretty spot on.

Northman
10-29-2015, 07:25 AM
But you can test to where you are relative to other difficult opponents, and this game coming up against Green Bay is going to be their biggest test of the year — first team with a winning record, they're undefeated.

Yep.

capt. Jack
10-29-2015, 10:08 AM
Don't talk shit about Plummer..Dude got freakin shafted by Shanny. Shit just went downhill after he got benched for the little bitch, Cutler.

Cutler is a little bitch, with a bad attitude, and as he says, a stronger arm then Elway!


MOtorboat
10-29-2015, 10:56 AM
I am curious as to what part of that you disagreed with?

It has nothing to do with him having an opinion of this team, 10 years after that junk. Joel is trying to discredit his opinion by discrediting his play. It's petty and dumb.

BroncoJoe
10-29-2015, 11:00 AM
Plummer did some very good things while here in Denver. Until that little bitch Cutler came along, anyway.

Northman
10-29-2015, 11:07 AM
Plummr did some good things and some bad things. Such is the life of a NFL QB.

Joel
10-29-2015, 12:08 PM
It has nothing to do with him having an opinion of this team, 10 years after that junk. Joel is trying to discredit his opinion by discrediting his play. It's petty and dumb.
No, I impugned his opinion by saying a teams genuine fans prefer blowing out opponents, because tight unpredictable games are only entertaining if we don't care who wins.

Someone ELSE responded by claiming Plummer the player "got shafted" and the team went downhill when he was benched, so THEN I addressed his play (i.e. because someone ELSE raised the topic) to point out the team ALREADY going downhill BEFORE he was benched was why we drafted Cutler. Let's not forget that 2006 Plummer in the pocket was as much a fainting goat as Orton later, with turnovers into the bargain. Whatever Cutler was or wasn't doesn't make Plummer any better; it's not either/or.

I agree that's irrelevant to his opinion of our games, but Plummer saying being "a fan" means he doesn't want us blowing out people invites the question of WHOSE fan he is. Eddie earlier noted (with Rods concurrence) the SB's the only "statement" that matters or lasts, a good point that underscores another: Great teams don't make statements with narrow home wins vs. good teams; they're EXPECTED to win at home. I'd rather blow out 16 teams a year than win 16 squeakers; settles all questions and helps me sleep.

MOtorboat
10-29-2015, 12:26 PM
Joel. Don't blame Carol for your transgressions. She said nothing about his play. You started in on that and people were only replying to you. I'm not reading that entire damn thing.

MasterShake
10-29-2015, 12:29 PM
I freaking love Jake Plummer.

Jake Plummer is my spirit animal.

Northman
10-29-2015, 12:34 PM
Whatever Cutler was or wasn't doesn't make Plummer any better; it's not either/or.



Pains me to agree but this is correct. The last 5 games of 2006 Plummer was 2 and 3 as a starter with 7 Tds vs 5 ints. When Cutler took over for the last 5 games he also went 2 and 3 with 9 Tds and 5 Ints albeit as a rookie QB. So for that season it was basically a wash at the QB position aside from the fact that one guy was a vet and the other a rookie.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-29-2015, 01:48 PM
FOUR turnovers. At home. Against a wildcard team. With Lepsis and Nalen protecting him. And without Lelies phantom end zone PI on a 40 yd Hail Mary and Champs 100+ yd Int, we don't even get THAT far: That's a 17+ pt swing in a game we won by 10. Drafting Cutler was the EFFECT, not CAUSE; don't put the cart before the Bronco.

Plummer had the talent to become an elite QB, but starting out with the perennially awful Cards put him in permanent panic mode any and every time he had to make a play rather than just manage a game. Like so many QBs before and since. Including Cutler following in the harried and hurried footsteps of Grossman and Orton.

This, btw, is why throwing a QB with NO NFL starts out there behind a patchwork rebuilt line would be the worst thing possible for his career, and team.

Lepsis was the drum Joey Porter beat that whole game. Plummer was running for his life the whole game. Shannahan didn't adapt fast enough either because they never gave Lepsis any help.

Ravage!!!
10-29-2015, 01:54 PM
"One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does NOT belong." :tongue: Sundays game won't be like SB XXXII either. I wish I could doubt that, but it's just not possible: Our LINE is almost the exact opposite of what it was then, and Elway and Davis could do no better with this group than Manning and Anderson/Hillman/NextManup can.

I would take this bet if it were possible.

Ravage!!!
10-29-2015, 01:55 PM
Lepsis was the drum Joey Porter beat that whole game. Plummer was running for his life the whole game. Shannahan didn't adapt fast enough either because they never gave Lepsis any help.

Watch the game-tape break down given by Jaws, someday.... and let me know if you still feel the same about this.

Joel
10-29-2015, 02:32 PM
Joel. Don't blame Carol for your transgressions. She said nothing about his play. You started in on that and people were only replying to you. I'm not reading that entire damn thing.
Not even referencing Carol, but I never said a WORD about Plummers play before someone ELSE said we went downhill when Shanny "shafted" him. That put his play on the table:

I just RESPONDED. We need to get past the false dichotomy saying one awful QB "proves" another good by default. Plummer and Culter are BOTH talented underperformers, for so many of the same reason it's hard to see how the guy who flipped off his OWN FANS and retired rather than start for the Falcons is any less a "little bitch" than Cutler. The absence of anyone to develop either ruined both their careers by 25; it just took a while to be sure they'd never go any farther than the plateau to which great raw talent took them.

Likewise, Manning playing badly or well hasn't proven anything about a guy who's spent 4 years on the bench: It can't. But putting an inexperienced QB behind a bad line is the short road to the next Plummer, David Carr, Cutler, Grossman, Orton—and HOPEFULLY the list ends there, at least for Denver.

Valar Morghulis
10-29-2015, 03:32 PM
Jake Plummer is my spirit animal.

You are my spirit animal

BroncoJoe
10-29-2015, 03:40 PM
You are my spirit animal

You're just an animal.

Slick
10-29-2015, 03:43 PM
Jake Plummer sucks.

chazoe60
10-29-2015, 03:50 PM
Jake Plummer sucks.

#deadtome

Slick
10-29-2015, 03:58 PM
#deadtome

We'll always have our mutual disdain for Kyle Orton.

BroncoJoe
10-29-2015, 04:13 PM
Jake Plummer sucks.

This hurts me, Slick.

Slick
10-29-2015, 04:28 PM
This hurts me, Slick.

I liked his mobility and that's about it. Never was a fan of his. I hope we can get past this, Joe.

MOtorboat
10-29-2015, 04:46 PM
Not even referencing Carol, but I never said a WORD about Plummers play before someone ELSE said we went downhill when Shanny "shafted" him. That put his play on the table:

I just RESPONDED. We need to get past the false dichotomy that says one awful QB "proves" the other good by default. Plummer and Culter are BOTH talented underperformers, for so many of the same reason it's hard to see how the guy who flipped off his OWN FANS and retired rather than start for the Falcons is any less a "little bitch" than Cutler. The absence of anyone to develop either ruined both their careers by 25; it just took a while to be sure they'd never go any farther than the plateau to which great raw talent took them.

Likewise, Manning playing badly or well hasn't proven anything about a guy who's spent 4 years on the bench: It can't. But putting an inexperienced QB behind a bad line is the short road to the next Plummer, David Carr, Cutler, Grossman, Orton—and HOPEFULLY the list ends there, at least for Denver.

At least we've essentially proved that Joel doesn't even read his own tripe.

BroncoJoe
10-29-2015, 04:46 PM
I liked his mobility and that's about it. Never was a fan of his. I hope we can get past this, Joe.

I'm now thinking of going to Cozumel next year, instead of visiting you.

:heartbroken:

Slick
10-29-2015, 04:53 PM
lol

GEM
10-29-2015, 05:04 PM
FOUR turnovers. At home. Against a wildcard team. With Lepsis and Nalen protecting him. And without Lelies phantom end zone PI on a 40 yd Hail Mary and Champs 100+ yd Int, we don't even get THAT far: That's a 17+ pt swing in a game we won by 10. Drafting Cutler was the EFFECT, not CAUSE; don't put the cart before the Bronco.

Plummer had the talent to become an elite QB, but starting out with the perennially awful Cards put him in permanent panic mode any and every time he had to make a play rather than just manage a game. Like so many QBs before and since. Including Cutler following in the harried and hurried footsteps of Grossman and Orton.

This, btw, is why throwing a QB with NO NFL starts out there behind a patchwork rebuilt line would be the worst thing possible for his career, and team.

If memory serves correctly, Pittsburgh figured out the kryptonite to the bootleg in the AFC Championship game....but who got the Broncos to that game, Joel? That would be Jake Plummer. And while he wasn't this big armed qb, he won games and he had the support of his locker room. After going to the AFC Championship game, the Broncos moved up in the draft to take Cutler...you tell me...a 23 yr old sitting behind you on the bench with a cannon arm (but noodle brain), you don't get nervous? He was still winning games. He got benched because of Shanny's ego. And what do ya know...Cutler didn't do a damn thing better. He still lost games. Shanny lost his locker room that day.

You want perfect football. It doesn't exist. Plummer wasn't perfect, but he was pretty good for what we paid him and the results he gave us. You're probably the fan he flipped the bird to. :laugh:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-29-2015, 05:19 PM
Watch the game-tape break down given by Jaws, someday.... and let me know if you still feel the same about this.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not suggesting Plummer played well.

I am however suggesting that saying Lepsis played well in that game is not accurate. I remember Porter eating Lepsis's lunch.

Joel
10-29-2015, 05:54 PM
If memory serves correctly, Pittsburgh figured out the kryptonite to the bootleg in the AFC Championship game....but who got the Broncos to that game, Joel? That would be Jake Plummer.

No, that would be:

1) Lelie drawing a nonexistent PI call in their end zone when Plummer lobbed an airball 40 yds (after which Anderson ran it in from the 1,)
2) Sauerburn (of all people) forcing a fumble on a punt return (after which we gained 7 yds and kicked a FG,)
3) Champ returning an Int from OUR end zone to THEIRS (after which Andereson again ran it in from the 1) and
4) The Cheatriots fumbling ANOTHER punt at their own 15 to set up Plummers LONE TD.

Plummer contributed NOTHING to 20 pts we would've scored with Van Pelt, and N* only scored 13, so how did Plummer "get us" to the AFCCG? By throwing for <200 yds, 1 TD (on a drive starting at N*s 15) and 1 Int? He had arguably the best REGULAR season of his career, but once the playoff pressure began he did what he do.


And while he wasn't this big armed qb, he won games and he had the support of his locker room. After going to the AFC Championship game, the Broncos moved up in the draft to take Cutler...you tell me...a 23 yr old sitting behind you on the bench with a cannon arm (but noodle brain), you don't get nervous? He was still winning games. He got benched because of Shanny's ego. And what do ya know...Cutler didn't do a damn thing better. He still lost games. Shanny lost his locker room that day.
The writing was on Shannys wall the day Plummer imploded with FOUR turnovers in the only home AFCCG game Denver's ever lost, but that underlined the same writing for Plummer. Boo hoo, he couldn't handle the pressure of a rookie 1st rounder on the bench behind him; he also couldn't handle the pressure of hosting a Conference Championship, the pressure of facing Peyton Manning or the GENERAL pressure of being a championship teams starting QB, expected to actually WIN a few games, not just manage them.


You want perfect football. It doesn't exist. Plummer wasn't perfect, but he was pretty good for what we paid him and the results he gave us. You're probably the fan he flipped the bird to. :laugh:
Well, at least he wasn't a pouty whiny "little bitch," right? ;) I want professional football, not guys paid 8-figures annually to lead their team, but sulking in a corner when expected to EARN their keep by doing so. Why that's excusable in Plummer but contemptible in Cutler is incomprehensible.

GEM
10-29-2015, 06:16 PM
You didn't read my post, Joel. I said who got them there. Who was the qb? So the team overcame Jake Plummer to make it as far as the AFC Championship game? Really? Wow. Van Pelt? THE Bradley Van Pelt? Bahahahahaha!!! Oh man, that was good. I've had a rough day, thanks for the laugh. Had Van Pelt been the QB, we wouldn't have been playing in the AFC Championship game.

I mean if anything, this comedy hour has been entertaining.

Joel
10-29-2015, 08:30 PM
You didn't read my post, Joel. I said who got them there. Who was the qb?
I read what you wrote: A myopic ref, Champ, Sauerbrun and the inept Cheatriot STs got them to the AFCCG. Plummer was the QB, but that's only tangentially related.


So the team overcame Jake Plummer to make it as far as the AFC Championship game? Really? Wow. Van Pelt? THE Bradley Van Pelt? Bahahahahaha!!! Oh man, that was good. I've had a rough day, thanks for the laugh. Had Van Pelt been the QB, we wouldn't have been playing in the AFC Championship game.

197 passing yards, 1 TD and 1 Int. And he only got the TD because N* muffed a second punt, at its own 15 yard line.

That's worse than our CURRENT QB, the first ballot HoFer (which Plummer DEFINITELY wasn't) half the fans want to bench for a late 2nd round QB, not a mid-1st rounder. If he has FOUR turnovers and gets blown out at home this week, they might get their wish. Seriously, what did Plummer "accomplish" to earn this kind of fierce loyalty? He had a good 2003 and 2005 regular season, was average or worse all other times, didn't want practice he sorely NEEDED, insulted his own fans, then quit in disgust.

I can understand bashing Cutler, but it's hard to see much to defend in Plummer, and the first doesn't mandate the second.

Yashahla17
10-31-2015, 03:07 PM
"One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does NOT belong." :tongue: Sundays game won't be like SB XXXII either. I wish I could doubt that, but it's just not possible: Our LINE is almost the exact opposite of what it was then, and Elway and Davis could do no better with this group than Manning and Anderson/Hillman/NextManup can.

Oh, and screw Plummers

Yeah, as a fan of the SPORT I want a suspenseful unpredictable game—IF (and ONLY if) I don't CARE who wins; as a fan of any team IN the game, I want us to blow out the opponents so fast and badly both sides bench all starters by the second quarter: Then I can stop worrying about the win and start simply ENJOYING it. That's part of what made the '98 season so much fun: From the start, the sole uncertainty was whether and which records would fall. Super Bowl XXXII was more fun AFTER the fact, but DURING the games, SB XXXIII was far more fun, because the outcome was never in doubt, and Elway had already driven a stake through his demons heart.

Varying degrees of loyalty to four teams in as many divisions means there are very few games where I'm genuinely indifferent to the outcome (unless the Broncos, Texans, Cowboys or Vikings are playing, I usually root for a tie: It's the only way NOBODY I loathe wins.) Plummer just reminded us (yet again) he was never truly a Bronco, only a sellsword; not a DENVER fan, just a FOOTBALL fan (except he turned his back on the game, too.)

Elway would be able to burn teams deep thus opening up the run game.

Joel
10-31-2015, 03:56 PM
Elway would be able to burn teams deep thus opening up the run game.
Sammy Winder





Rushing




Year
Att
Yds
TD
Lng
Y/A
AV


1982 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1982/)
67
259
1
18
3.9
3


1983 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1983/)
196
757
3
52
3.9
6


1984 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1984/)*
296
1153
4
24
3.9
10


1985 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1985/)
199
714
8
42
3.6
6


1986 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1986/)*
240
789
9
31
3.3
6


1987 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1987/)
196
741
6
19
3.8
6


1988 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1988/)
149
543
4
35
3.6
5


1989 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/)
110
351
2
16
3.2
3


1990 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990/)
42
120
2
19
2.9
2


Career
1495
5427
39
52
3.6


Bobby Humphrey



Year
Att
Yds
TD
Lng
Y/A
AV


1989 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/)
294
1151
7
40
3.9
10


1990 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990/)*
288
1202
7
37
4.2
10


1991 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1991/)
11
33
0
7
3.0
0


1992 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1992/)
102
471
1
21
4.6
8


Career
695
2857
15
40
4.1



Steve Sewell



Year
Att
Yds
TD
Lng
Y/A
AV


1985 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1985/)
81
275
4
16
3.4
4


1986 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1986/)
23
123
1
15
5.3
4


1987 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1987/)
19
83
2
17
4.4
3


1988 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1988/)
32
135
1
26
4.2
6


1989 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/)
7
44
0
10
6.3
4


1990 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990/)
17
46
3
8
2.7
3


1991 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1991/)
50
211
2
26
4.2
6


Career
229
917
13
26
4.0



Oops, someone got facts all over your fantasy; sorry—NOT! ;)

Elways whole legacy's built on just the opposite of your delusion. Dunno if you're just too young to remember or ignorant for some other reason, but the eternal complaint against Reeves was pushing an impotent rushing attack all game INSTEAD of riding Elways arm, until trailing late in the 4th left no choice but Elway providing one of countless last minute comebacks. It's called "running to establish the pass" (q.v.) which works far better than shelling a team for 40 pts by air just to "open up" 4-5 yd runs.

Joel
10-31-2015, 04:13 PM
Also, Plummer had more yards, TDs and completions in his career-killing AFCCG than Elway had in the first SB he WON—but, against an elite D, Terrell Davis ran for 157 yds on 30 carries (>5.2 yds/att) and 3 TDs (umatched by ANYONE before or since) so it didn't matter. I can't even see how the fantasy of Elway passing to establish the run came up here, but the factual physical record strongly refutes it.

7DnBrnc53
10-31-2015, 06:33 PM
Sammy Winder





Rushing




Year
Att
Yds
TD
Lng
Y/A
AV


1982 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1982/)
67
259
1
18
3.9
3


1983 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1983/)
196
757
3
52
3.9
6


1984 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1984/)*
296
1153
4
24
3.9
10


1985 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1985/)
199
714
8
42
3.6
6


1986 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1986/)*
240
789
9
31
3.3
6


1987 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1987/)
196
741
6
19
3.8
6


1988 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1988/)
149
543
4
35
3.6
5


1989 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/)
110
351
2
16
3.2
3


1990 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990/)
42
120
2
19
2.9
2


Career
1495
5427
39
52
3.6


Bobby Humphrey



Year
Att
Yds
TD
Lng
Y/A
AV


1989 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/)
294
1151
7
40
3.9
10


1990 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990/)*
288
1202
7
37
4.2
10


1991 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1991/)
11
33
0
7
3.0
0


1992 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1992/)
102
471
1
21
4.6
8


Career
695
2857
15
40
4.1



Steve Sewell



Year
Att
Yds
TD
Lng
Y/A
AV


1985 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1985/)
81
275
4
16
3.4
4


1986 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1986/)
23
123
1
15
5.3
4


1987 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1987/)
19
83
2
17
4.4
3


1988 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1988/)
32
135
1
26
4.2
6


1989 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/)
7
44
0
10
6.3
4


1990 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990/)
17
46
3
8
2.7
3


1991 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1991/)
50
211
2
26
4.2
6


Career
229
917
13
26
4.0



Oops, someone got facts all over your fantasy; sorry—NOT! ;)

Elways whole legacy's built on just the opposite of your delusion. Dunno if you're just too young to remember or ignorant for some other reason, but the eternal complaint against Reeves was pushing an impotent rushing attack all game INSTEAD of riding Elways arm, until trailing late in the 4th left no choice but Elway providing one of countless last minute comebacks. It's called "running to establish the pass" (q.v.) which works far better than shelling a team for 40 pts by air just to "open up" 4-5 yd runs.

Man, the only franchise-level RB John played in the Reeves era was Bobby Humphrey. Gaston Green and Sammy Winder ran for 1,000 yards as well, but they were one-hit wonders, Tony Dorsett was about washed-up, and Steve Sewell was the Kordell Stewart of the Broncos.

That is a good point though, Joel. Elway was in a running offense until 1993, when Phillips moved from DC to HC, and Jim Fassel would pair with Elway again as QB coach (Elway and Fassel worked together at Stanford, where Elway put up better stats than he did under Reeves).

Cugel
10-31-2015, 11:56 PM
In retrospect it's clear the Broncos should never have drafted Cutler and should have used that draft pick to get some talent around Plummer, . . . but only in retrospect.

I supported the decision at the time, because I thought it clear from the AFC Championship Game that Plummer was not going to be able to lead this team to a SB. Shanny thought the same thing and Ted Sundquist explained in the article he wrote recently why he drafted Cutler.

But, in retrospect there were NO franchise QBs in the 2006 draft (Vince Young, Matt Leinart, and Jay Cutler) and none in the 2007 draft either. An aging Plummer was the best Denver could have done until Joe Flacco at #18 in 2008. (2007: JaWalrus Russell, Brady Quinn, Kevin Kolb, John Beck, and Drew Stanton were the choices).

However, hindsight is 20-20. Cutler had all the tools to succeed, and really should have been an elite QB, except he just never developed the mindset it takes to succeed.

Yashahla17
11-01-2015, 03:01 AM
If memory serves correctly, Pittsburgh figured out the kryptonite to the bootleg in the AFC Championship game....but who got the Broncos to that game, Joel? That would be Jake Plummer. And while he wasn't this big armed qb, he won games and he had the support of his locker room. After going to the AFC Championship game, the Broncos moved up in the draft to take Cutler...you tell me...a 23 yr old sitting behind you on the bench with a cannon arm (but noodle brain), you don't get nervous? He was still winning games. He got benched because of Shanny's ego. And what do ya know...Cutler didn't do a damn thing better. He still lost games. Shanny lost his locker room that day.

You want perfect football. It doesn't exist. Plummer wasn't perfect, but he was pretty good for what we paid him and the results he gave us. You're probably the fan he flipped the bird to. :laugh:

Anybody who has such a fragile mind that there intimidated because a guy behind them is coming for there spot isn't worthy of starting.

Joel
11-01-2015, 04:12 PM
Man, the only franchise-level RB John played in the Reeves era was Bobby Humphrey. Gaston Green and Sammy Winder ran for 1,000 yards as well, but they were one-hit wonders, Tony Dorsett was about washed-up, and Steve Sewell was the Kordell Stewart of the Broncos.

That is a good point though, Joel. Elway was in a running offense until 1993, when Phillips moved from DC to HC, and Jim Fassel would pair with Elway again as QB coach (Elway and Fassel worked together at Stanford, where Elway put up better stats than he did under Reeves).
"Running offense" is a redundant phrase: Great Q/RBs just obscure that a bit. Earlier this year, ELWAY HIMSELF ADMITTED REEVES HAD THE RIGHT IDEA, even if none of the Broncos faithful who stampeded to praise "his" wisdom spared a moment to credit the coach who provided it (as Elway did.)


In retrospect it's clear the Broncos should never have drafted Cutler and should have used that draft pick to get some talent around Plummer, . . . but only in retrospect.

I supported the decision at the time, because I thought it clear from the AFC Championship Game that Plummer was not going to be able to lead this team to a SB. Shanny thought the same thing and Ted Sundquist explained in the article he wrote recently why he drafted Cutler.

But, in retrospect there were NO franchise QBs in the 2006 draft (Vince Young, Matt Leinart, and Jay Cutler) and none in the 2007 draft either. An aging Plummer was the best Denver could have done until Joe Flacco at #18 in 2008. (2007: JaWalrus Russell, Brady Quinn, Kevin Kolb, John Beck, and Drew Stanton were the choices).

However, hindsight is 20-20. Cutler had all the tools to succeed, and really should have been an elite QB, except he just never developed the mindset it takes to succeed.

Cutler never developed PERIOD, and much of that's because he only spent 2 years with Shanny and 0 with Kubiak before shipped off to the offensive "genius" of Lovie Smith, which ruined a guy with enough talent and skill to be a Pro Bowl alternate by his second season. Just as Shanny and Kubiaks constant coaching dragged Plummer kicking and screaming as far as he could possibly go after starting out as the awful Cards' SOLE weapon permanently instilled all the desperate and WRONG isntinct for a championship QB.

That's also why we can't definitively say, even in retrospect, whether and which QBs drafted since were the real deal and which were busts: Because even the most talented QBs can and often do fail when drafted by teams with NO ability to develop them (which just happen to be the ones most likely to have a #1 overall pick to spend on a QB.)

Plunkett had the arm to throw 60 yd passes at 14, the mind to get into Stanford and the Heisman votes to beat out Mannings dad and a guy who changed his name just to win the trophy (Notre Dame: For all your douchebag needs.®) That earned him a #1 overall pick that sent him to the perennially pathetic Patriots, who promptly blamed him for all their continual woes, drafted studly Steve Grogan and sent Plunkett packing to Oakland, which had to nurse him for several seasons before he had the nerve to win a couple SBs.

Tampa spent a 1st round (supplemental) pick on Steve Young, but benched him when they went 2-14 TWICE anyway, and spent yet another #1 overall pick on Heisman-winning Testaverde: Then Tampa fans put up billboards claiming Vinny couldn't tell the difference between orange and blue, as the team went right on sucking for the next decade as it had for the previous decade, while Young went to the HoF via SF and the SB.

It could've happened to Elway if his father weren't a coach, nearly did anyway DESPITE having Shanny his first three years to avoid ending up more like VINCE Young than Steve.

Sooooo many guys like that through the years; it's impossible to actually KNOW how many, because their awful organizations have a knack for hiding their blinding ability beneath a bushel and a peck of suck. Does anyone REALLY think NO decent QB's found his way to Cleveland in the generation since Kosar left, even with all the top draft racked up by a team where .500 is an achievement? Isn't it much more likely the Browns wouldn't know what to do with a great QB if they got one: That they DIDN'T know WHEN they did?

You're smart enough to know QBs aren't the end all, be all of football (at least not pro football.) Even elite ones can't win SBs without help from teammates, and even elite TALENTS don't develop the skills and wisdom to be elite PLAYERS without help from coaches. The good news is that ALL Kubiaks starting QBs made at least one Pro Bowl, even dubious talents and minds like Brian Griese and Schaub: Unless he's foolish enough to try turning another sows ear into a silk purse, he'll provide a post-Manning franchise QB.


Anybody who has such a fragile mind that there intimidated because a guy behind them is coming for there spot isn't worthy of starting.

For once, a statement with which I must agree. If Plummer lacked the mental strength to play well despite the pressure of Cutler lying in wait for his job, how the Hell would he respond to far greater pressure of a Conference Championship Game? Oh, wait, we KNOW the answer to that question: It's why we DRAFTED Cutler.

Although: "Their;" really, this isn't complex stuff. ;)

7DnBrnc53
11-01-2015, 06:42 PM
"Running offense" is a redundant phrase: Great Q/RBs just obscure that a bit. Earlier this year, ELWAY HIMSELF ADMITTED REEVES HAD THE RIGHT IDEA, even if none of the Broncos faithful who stampeded to praise "his" wisdom spared a moment to credit the coach who provided it (as Elway did.)

Dan's offense in Denver wasn't a sophisticated passing offense, even though it seemed to be hard to learn.

In a September 1984 issue of SI (with Joe Theismann on the cover) in the Extra Points section, Eason Ramson (a SF TE who was just traded to Denver) basically said that Reeves' system was complicated to learn compared to what Walsh ran. Also, Ronnie Lott basically said that Elway would be one of the leaders in passing if he played in Walsh's system.

And, in a book called Armed and Dangerous about Elway, Steve Watson basically called Dan's offense the Edsel system. He also said that Reeves was more into protection than attacking a defense.

Now, to be effective, you have to run the ball effectively in the NFL. I have no problem with that. And, Reeves knew how to use his backs. However, you can't rely on that too much when you have guys like Sammy Winder and Gene Lang in your backfield.


That's also why we can't definitively say, even in retrospect, whether and which QBs drafted since were the real deal and which were busts: Because even the most talented QBs can and often do fail when drafted by teams with NO ability to develop them (which just happen to be the ones most likely to have a #1 overall pick to spend on a QB.)

Plunkett had the arm to throw 60 yd passes at 14, the mind to get into Stanford and the Heisman votes to beat out Mannings dad and a guy who changed his name just to win the trophy (Notre Dame: For all your douchebag needs.®) That earned him a #1 overall pick that sent him to the perennially pathetic Patriots, who promptly blamed him for all their continual woes, drafted studly Steve Grogan and sent Plunkett packing to Oakland, which had to nurse him for several seasons before he had the nerve to win a couple SBs.

Tampa spent a 1st round (supplemental) pick on Steve Young, but benched him when they went 2-14 TWICE anyway, and spent yet another #1 overall pick on Heisman-winning Testaverde: Then Tampa fans put up billboards claiming Vinny couldn't tell the difference between orange and blue, as the team went right on sucking for the next decade as it had for the previous decade, while Young went to the HoF via SF and the SB.

It could've happened to Elway if his father weren't a coach, nearly did anyway DESPITE having Shanny his first three years to avoid ending up more like VINCE Young than Steve.

Sooooo many guys like that through the years; it's impossible to actually KNOW how many, because their awful organizations have a knack for hiding their blinding ability beneath a bushel and a peck of suck. Does anyone REALLY think NO decent QB's found his way to Cleveland in the generation since Kosar left, even with all the top draft racked up by a team where .500 is an achievement? Isn't it much more likely the Browns wouldn't know what to do with a great QB if they got one: That they DIDN'T know WHEN they did?

Interesting that you mentioned Cleveland, because Couch was the epitome of this. They never should have drafted him (or any QB). Tampa shouldn't have drafted Young or Testaverde, either. They should have stuck with Steve DeBerg and built more of a team around him.

That is the by-product of the QB-driven league crap that is spewed on TV all the time. People forget that it takes the right coaches and players around them. You think that Tom Brady would have been great if he was drafted by SF (his favorite team) instead of NE? No way. He would have sat on the bench for four years behind Jeff Garcia, and then he may have had to deal with Mike Nolan drafting Rodgers or Smith in 05 to be the man instead of him.

Yashahla17
11-01-2015, 06:49 PM
Wow he finally agrees that i make sense.

slim
11-01-2015, 06:58 PM
Jake Plummer sucks.

You don't mean that.

Joel
11-01-2015, 07:19 PM
What's known and rumored to have gone down between him, Shanny and Elway suggests that was pretty limited. Reeves was a SB-winning and losing FB before becoming a SB-winning and losing assistant coach under an offensive AND defensive genius, so knew the value of good blocking. I sincerely doubt he went through most of the '80s riding linemen from Denvers '77 SB by CHOICE.


Dan's offense in Denver wasn't a sophisticated passing offense, even though it seemed to be hard to learn.

In a September 1984 issue of SI (with Joe Theismann on the cover) in the Extra Points section, Eason Ramson (a SF TE who was just traded to Denver) basically said that Reeves' system was complicated to learn compared to what Walsh ran. Also, Ronnie Lott basically said that Elway would be one of the leaders in passing if he played in Walsh's system.

And, in a book called Armed and Dangerous about Elway, Steve Watson basically called Dan's offense the Edsel system. He also said that Reeves was more into protection than attacking a defense.

Reeves essentially ran the Landry offense, and I find it hard to believe it went from Razzle Dazzle in the mid-seventies to Edsel by the early eighties. Walshs offense caught on because it won 5 SBs, but most ANY system would do that with guys like Montana, Rice, Craig, Clark and Jones behind guys like Paris, Cross and Farnhorst and supported by a D with Lott and Haley. It was one of the last two pre-cap dynasties, and meeting the other in 4 straight NFCCGs before each dominated a SB is why the cap exists.


Now, to be effective, you have to run the ball effectively in the NFL. I have no problem with that. And, Reeves knew how to use his backs. However, you can't rely on that too much when you have guys like Sammy Winder and Gene Lang in your backfield.

You can't rely on much of anything when your best blockers are Keith Bishop and Dave Studdard on the wrong side of 30: Both retired within two years of SB XXII, and the rest were either rookies, scrubs or both. In this weeks game day thread, someone posted a pic of Elway in the old '80s uniforms: I counted at least TWO unblocked pass rushers closing in while Studdard held off another as Elway cocked to throw. One-man offense doesn't beat TEAMS.


Interesting that you mentioned Cleveland, because Couch was the epitome of this. They never should have drafted him (or any QB). Tampa shouldn't have drafted Young or Testaverde, either. They should have stuck with Steve DeBerg and built more of a team around him.
Sadly, few teams have the balls to do that, and some of the most gutless and QB-crazed are also the most consistently awful (hmmm, wonder if there's a connection....)


That is the by-product of the QB-driven league crap that is spewed on TV all the time. People forget that it takes the right coaches and players around them. You think that Tom Brady would have been great if he was drafted by SF (his favorite team) instead of NE? No way. He would have sat on the bench for four years behind Jeff Garcia, and then he may have had to deal with Mike Nolan drafting Rodgers or Smith in 05 to be the man instead of him.
To the extent he IS great, he wouldn't have been without the system (especially the rampant cheating integral to it.) Brady's "great" for the same reason Terry Bradshaw's in the Hall of Fame: He more often than not managed to avoid screwing things up for great TEAMS, occasionally sprinkling in good plays when needed. Such is the appeal to the lowest common denominator, but since that's by definition the largest group, it's also the broadest appeal.

So we end up debating whether Tebow, Manning, Oz or whomever is the difference between first and worst. Despite the litany of average or worse SB "winning" QBs.

Joel
11-01-2015, 07:20 PM
Wow he finally agrees that i make sense.
You finally MADE sense: Do that more often, and I'll do the other. ;)

Yashahla17
11-01-2015, 07:35 PM
I Make sense all the time. Once you take off your manning shades you'll see

MOtorboat
11-01-2015, 07:42 PM
You finally MADE sense: Do that more often, and I'll do the other. ;)


I Make sense all the time. Once you take off your manning shades you'll see

This is one of the most ironic exchanges in the history of this board.

:popcorn:

Joel
11-01-2015, 08:00 PM
This is one of the most ironic exchanges in the history of this board.
There'd be far fewer QB controversies if more fans remembered the first rule is "Dance with the one who brung ya."

I'd rather have spent the last 3 years assembling the rest of this otherwise stacked roster while including a functional line in SEVERAL drafts deep there, while choosing our shots to find a franchise QB if/when the last guy proved himself a one-year wonder. But that ship sailed, was seized by pirates, burned and sank to the ocean floor long ago: Right now—TODAY—Manning's the one who brung us, and I'd rather ride a first ballot HoFer than switch to a career benchwarmer in the middle of a 6-0 season.

Maybe we'll work the line into shape in time to keep him healthy and get Anderson, Hillman and/or Thompson going by January. If anyone can do it, it's Kubiak and Dennison, and we're in the drivers seat for the division crown: IF we can stabilize the line, the Broncos INSTANTLY become the leagues best team by a wide margin. If not, hopefully Oz is the guy NEXT year or we quickly find the guy who is, while finally starting 5 whole linemen worthy of the name. But for NOW, Manning's our best hope WHATEVER happens.

Joel
11-02-2015, 12:33 AM
Maybe we'll work the line into shape in time to keep him healthy and get Anderson, Hillman and/or Thompson going by January. If anyone can do it, it's Kubiak and Dennison, and we're in the drivers seat for the division crown: IF we can stabilize the line, the Broncos INSTANTLY become the leagues best team by a wide margin.

Kinda feel like this bears repeating now. Anyone still wanna see Oz, think he can do better because he's better suited for Kubiaks offense and can make up for our lines failures? 'Cause, historically, "find a QB/RB good enough to make up for an awful line" hasn't been a recipe for SB success; great lines and Ds with decent QBs have a better record.

TimHippo
11-02-2015, 12:34 AM
I Make sense all the time. Once you take off your manning shades you'll see

Yashi! Holla!