Broncos still feel effects of late start on offensive line

[Denver Native (Carol)]

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. – The bottom line is the Denver Broncos liked what they saw from their embattled offensive line in the victory over the Cleveland Browns.

AND

There are some elements of good news/bad news with in that. The good news is this the Broncos needed any kind anof uptick in one of the real trouble spots in the season’s early going. The fact that last Sunday’s effort was the best of the season does show what a struggle it’s been to this point.

The issue, at the moment, is practice. It's difficult for the Broncos to play like a cohesive unit on game day, one that makes quality decisions on the fly because the players know each other so well in any and all situations, when the group doesn’t practice together through the week.

The Broncos' line simply hasn't worked together much because of a shoulder injury to left tackle Ty Sambrailo, a hamstring injury to guard Evan Mathis and guard Louis Vasquez’s troublesome knee, along with a missed practice or two by Harris. And that has shown at times on game day.

During the last four weeks, including the on-field work the Broncos did this week before the team sent the players into the bye week, the Broncos' starting offensive line has practiced together just two days. And in the days leading up to the game in Cleveland, the offensive line that started that game did not work together in any of the full practices that week.

Opposing defenses have taken note how the Broncos’ don’t always come off double-teams soon enough to pick up extra rushers. Defenses have repeatedly gotten to Manning by bringing an extra rusher from off the line of scrimmage after a short delay.

The defenses also have attacked what the Broncos had believed would be their greatest strength: Mathis and Vasquez. In the opinion of some of those who have them faced them, their physical ailments are affecting their ability to move the way the Broncos would like them to move.

full article - http://espn.go.com/blog/denver-broncos/post/_/id/15771/broncos-still-feel-effects-of-late-start-in-the-offensive-line

[Cugel]

The problem is that Elway has been trying for years to save cap space by underpaying his OL. He believed apparently that because Peyton gets rid of the ball so quickly, he could get by on the OL with re-treads, cast-off FAs cut from other teams, low paid rookies and lower round draft picks.

In 2013 it cost the Broncos any chance of winning the SB when Seattle overwhelmed the Broncos under manned OL all game. In 2014 instead of going out and getting a STUD RT, the Broncos tried to move journeyman T Chris Clark from left to right and moved underperforming RT Orlando Franklin to LG. When Clark couldn't do the job, they tried Michael Schofield (Elway drafted him after all and they "wanted to see what he could do" which was nothing. That failing, they tried moving RG Louis Vasquez to RT which created TWO holes on the OL instead of one. Meanwhile their former pro-bowl LT Ryan Clady played badly in his return from serious knee surgery, highlighting the need to draft a backup and possible replacement for him.

In the off-season I kept waiting to see who they sign as a FA to fill the gaping hole at RT. Nobody. In the draft they drafted a 2nd round LT. OK, but he's a rookie. Then Clady went down and instead of trying to trade for or find a good veteran T in FA they kept insisting that Ty Sambrailo would "be fine" as a raw rookie LT for a 39 year old QB. He wasn't. Pro-football focus rated him among the NFL worst starting Ts at -10.4.

For RT, after it became obvious in the pre-season that Michael Schofield was simply useless, the Broncos signed Ryan Harris, a career journeyman backup who started 6 games in 3 years in Texas, and played so underwhelmingly for the Chiefs last year they didn't want him back.

Then Sambrailo got hurt and the Broncos were forced to move Harris from RT where he was inadequate, but a veteran, to LT where he's been hopeless. The "answer" apparently has been to play more of T Tyler Polumbus, who is a former Broncos re-tread who's bounced around the league for 5 different teams and was out of football altogether last season. The very definition of "career backup." As bad as Sambrailo played, he has the potential for improvement with experience, so we can expect the OL to improve once he comes back and we don't see Harris at LT anymore.

At LG they grabbed the chance to sign former Pro-Bowler Evan Mathis. He's started every game despite coming off serious knee surgery from a year ago which prevented him from even practicing in the pre-season. He was one of the worst offenders on the OL at the beginning of the season. Then he suffered a hamstring injury that has limited his performance and made him a continuing liability. At 34 years old, a hamstring is not likely to get better over the course of this season. If he can continue to play at all this year it will be struggle. That's one big reason why nobody in the NFL wanted to pay him the money he was seeking in Philly ($7 million a year). The answer here has been to play more and more of rookie G Max Garcia, who at least is promising if utterly raw and inexperienced.

At C, once again they are starting Matt Paradis who's coming off the practice squad from a year ago and has never started an NFL game before. While not great, he's the least of their problems.

Louis Vasquez, the former pro-bowl RG has struggled with a knee injury.

Not only is the Broncos OL a patchwork of inferior and ageing players, they are all banged up and suffering from various sorts of injuries.

Hopefully they get a little better with the bye-week. But, this is clearly going to be a continuing problem all season. And it started when Elway refused to go out and get a really good RT to fill a desperate need.

[spikerman]

If I have one complaint about Elway as a GM it's that he hasn't prioritized the offensive line.

[BroncoWave]

If I have one complaint about Elway as a GM it's that he hasn't prioritized the offensive line.

I mean, he has spent multiple high draft picks on it over the past few years. And he brought in Mathis who was a pro bowler last year. Vasquez was another big signing there. So I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't prioritized that area. You expect your high draft picks to be good players and you can't forecast your best lineman going down for the year.

[Joel]

I mean, he has spent multiple high draft picks on it over the past few years.
A SINGLE MIDROUND pick=/="multiple high draft picks." He prioritized it more this year, because it had deterioriated so much for so long it's been the NFLs laughing stock since the start of LAST year, on the heels of costing us our first SB since he retired, but even then a 2nd and 4th rounder aren't enough, not when it's so bad 3 starters are shown the door. For all the talk of "win from now on" and "build through the draft," he's contented himself with adding FAs as and ONLY when starters leave.

Consequently, the whole thing (except Vasquez) is a total teardown this year, and scrambling for enough decent players to fill all the gaps that had always been there left absolutely NOTHING to fill another the moment a SINGLE starter got hurt. In fairness, Elway's belatedly prioritizing the line now, and the greatest evidence is bringing in Kubiak and Dennison, guys known for building and maintaining great lines every year of their careers all the way back to our SB wins. But it's too late for Manning.

All that's as inexcusable as it is inexplicable, because Elway spent most of his career in a situation eerily similar to what he handed Manning in Denver (i.e. first ballot HoF QB and solid D, but journeyman RBs and scrub linemen who gave the QB NO protection NOR run support) before a line and running game finally got him over the hump just before his career ended. That's why Manning came to Denver, after all: Elway's been where he is, so he trusted Elway to put that experience to use.

Too little, too late; hopefully Oz is as good as Yoshi claims, because the only thing less likely than sorting out this line before next season is Manning playing that long.

[Northman]

If I have one complaint about Elway as a GM it's that he hasn't prioritized the offensive line.

I think he will continue to work on it the next couple of years in preparation for Oz and his tenure in Denver. Wont do much for this year but with Manning's diminished skills i dont think it would of mattered too much anyway.

[spikerman]

I mean, he has spent multiple high draft picks on it over the past few years. And he brought in Mathis who was a pro bowler last year. Vasquez was another big signing there. So I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't prioritized that area. You expect your high draft picks to be good players and you can't forecast your best lineman going down for the year.
I think a first round pick or two would better illustrate his commitment. Also, Mathis was an afterthought. I firmly believe that if you want to be competitive game in and game out your best position group should be the o-line.

[BroncoWave]

I think a first round pick or two would better illustrate his commitment. Also, Mathis was an afterthought. I firmly believe that if you want to be competitive game in and game out your best position group should be the o-line.

I totally disagree with the premise of drafting strictly by position of need in the first round. If there is not a player at their draft spot on the o-line with a first round grade then they shouldn't just pick an o-lineman to show commitment to building it.

Again, you can't forecast the most important player on your oline going down during OTAs.

[Cugel]

A SINGLE MIDROUND pick=/="multiple high draft picks." He prioritized it more this year, because it had deterioriated so much for so long it's been the NFLs laughing stock since the start of LAST year, on the heels of costing us our first SB since he retired, but even then a 2nd and 4th rounder aren't enough, not when it's so bad 3 starters are shown the door. For all the talk of "win from now on" and "build through the draft," he's contented himself with adding FAs as and ONLY when starters leave.

Consequently, the whole thing (except Vasquez) is a total teardown this year, and scrambling for enough decent player to fill all the gaps that had always been there left absolutely NOTHING to fill another the moment a SINGLE starter got hurt. In fairness, Elway's belatedly prioritizing the line now, and the greatest evidence is bringing in Kubiak and Dennison, guys known for building and maintaining great lines every year of their careers all the way back to our SB wins. But it's too late for Manning.

All that's as inexcusable as it is inexplicable, because Elway spent most of his career in a situation eerily similar to what he handed Manning in Denver (i.e. first ballot HoF QB and solid, but journeyman RBs and scrub linemen who gave the QB NO protection NOR run support) before a line and running game finally got him over the hump just before his career ended. That's why Manning came to Denver, after all: Elway's been where he is, so he trusted Elway to put that experience to use.

Too little, too late; hopefully Oz is as good as Yoshi claims, because the only thing less likely than this line being sorted before next season is Manning playing then.

I couldn't agree more with this assessment. Sad but true. It's just beyond sad that they have wasted the Manning era because they couldn't assemble a really good OL to protect him.

2015:
T Ty Sambrailo - 2nd round, #59.
He never should be starting and that wasn't the plan, but Clady's injury forced him prematurely into the lineup. He's been bad, but he's a raw rookie and you'd expect that. Hopefully he improves as he gets healthy and the season rolls along.

C - Max Garcia - 4th round compensatory pick at end of round, #133. Been better than expected and may get into the lineup at LG if Evan Mathis continues to struggle with age and injury.

2014:
T Michael Schofield - 3rd round #95
C Matt Paradis - 6th round #207

Schofield has been a total bust so far. One of the biggest disagreements with Elway that led to Fox leaving was about Schofield. They tried to give him the starting RT job last year and this season and he failed miserably. I have no idea why Elway won't admit it and get rid of him, but I imagine it will be next off-season when he finally gets cut.

They got lucky with Paradis, not great, but who has played extremely well for a 6th rounder and is the least of the Broncos OL woes.

2013:
T - Vinston Painter, 6th round, #173 - late round bust after getting cut he's now on the Dolphins practice squad.

2012:
C Philip Blake - 4th round, #108 - wasted pick.

T - Orlando Franklin 2nd round, #46. Highest round pick of the Elway era for an OL, and of course 4 years later he's no longer on the roster, leaving a gaping hole at RT that has never been fixed. They could have re-signed him but they didn't want to pay him. How much heat-ache would Kubiak have avoided if he had a healthy Franklin at G or T?

2 effective OL in 4 years when you need 5 starters is not remotely enough. Elway has stockpiled talent on the defense, which is now absurdly deep at every level, and almost totally ignored the offense, particularly the OL in the draft, which is now facing a massive talent deficiency.

Denver's offense is struggling because they don't have very many good players on offense. It's as simple as that. They lack impact players at TE, slot-receiver and RB and they can't run the ball with this OL which accounts for their red zone woes.

Hopefully Paradis, Max Garcia and Sambrailo become good OL next season, but they aren't even adequate right now that that is the biggest problem on the team.

[spikerman]

In Elway's defense, if the team is going to be good on one side of the ball, defense is the way to go.

[BroncoWave]

In Elway's defense, if the team is going to be good on one side of the ball, defense is the way to go.

And the o-line wouldn't even really be a problem if Manning could still overcome bad o-lines like he has his whole career. I'm not sure Elway counted on Manning regressing to the point that he has.

[spikerman]

And the o-line wouldn't even really be a problem if Manning could still overcome bad o-lines like he has his whole career. I'm not sure Elway counted on Manning regressing to the point that he has.

I don't know; I think he had a suspicion, hence the pay cut.

[Northman]

I don't know; I think he had a suspicion, hence the pay cut.

Agreed. Its pretty obvious going back to the end of last year, with or without good protection that he isnt the calibur of player he once was.

[spikerman]

Agreed. Its pretty obvious going back to the end of last year, with or without good protection that he isnt the calibur of player he once was.
Father time is undefeated, but he can still get it done. Tom Brady is considered great and he lives off of 7 yard passes on pick plays. There is no reason Manning can't.

[Northman]

Father time is undefeated, but he can still get it done. Tom Brady is considered great and he lives off of 7 yard passes on pick plays. There is no reason Manning can't.

We are fortunate that the defense is a good as it is to overcome the turnovers so far. I would love for Manning to be able to pull off the 7 yd passes like Brady but his accuracy with that is off to. Brady right now can still make the necessary plays consistently, but Manning is struggling right now but if he can get out of his funk the short passing game will work with the kind of defense we have. But Manning has got to scale back the turnovers, those are just killers right now for us.

[TXBRONC]

We are fortunate that the defense is a good as it is to overcome the turnovers so far. I would love for Manning to be able to pull off the 7 yd passes like Brady but his accuracy with that is off to. Brady right now can still make the necessary plays consistently, but Manning is struggling right now but if he can get out of his funk the short passing game will work with the kind of defense we have. But Manning has got to scale back the turnovers, those are just killers right now for us.

I agree. Just scaling back the turnovers will help the offense and defense tremendously.

[BroncoWave]

I don't know; I think he had a suspicion, hence the pay cut.

I'm not saying Elway didn't think he would regress, I think that much was obvious. I'm just saying I don't think Elway thought he would be THIS bad. I'm sure he expected he could at least be a game manager and limit turnovers. Even that would have masked the poor o-line to a sufficient level IMO.

[spikerman]

I'm not saying Elway didn't think he would regress, I think that much was obvious. I'm just saying I don't think Elway thought he would be THIS bad. I'm sure he expected he could at least be a game manager and limit turnovers. Even that would have masked the poor o-line to a sufficient level IMO.
I can't argue with that, but we'll never know.

[BroncoWave]

I can't argue with that, but we'll never know.

I have to believe if Elway thought he would be this bad, he would have found a way for them to mutually part ways and go onto the Brock era. You obviously can't make the change now during the season, but I don't think Elway would have gone forward with Manning had he thought this would be the result.

Obviously I don't know what Elway was thinking, none of us do, but I do think he believed that Manning still had enough left to at least be an average player and overcome the o-line to the extent that he could manage the games which would be plenty to win with our defense.

Could he have done more to fix the o-line? Probably. But as others have said, it would have been at the expense of the defense. I don't mind the gamble of going all-in on defense and trusting Peyton to just not mess it up.

[Joel]

I think a first round pick or two would better illustrate his commitment. Also, Mathis was an afterthought. I firmly believe that if you want to be competitive game in and game out your best position group should be the o-line.
The QB may be more critical than any SINGLE lineman, but, as a group, the offensive line is THE most critical part of offense. Great passing can offset poor running and vice versa, but BOTH depend on good blocking, and thus both FAIL without it.

Again, Elway SHOULD know that better than anyone, because, apart from Keith Bishop, his SB losing were awful (particularly the first time, when two starters were veterans of the FIRST Broncos SB, while a third was taken in the following draft: All three retired within two more seasons) but a solid line of elite blockers were pivotal to his pair of SB WINS. In other words, great blocking is the difference between Elway getting pounded in his prime, but cruising to victory on his last legs.

I love Elway as much as anyone, but Manning came to Denver counting on him to remember his own career, and was let down badly: Elway built up everything BUT an already awful offensive line that only got worse, forcing Manning into the exact same "you're on your own" situation embarrassingly and equally hopeless for both of them.

[Joel]

I totally disagree with the premise of drafting strictly by position of need in the first round. If there is not a player at their draft spot on the o-line with a first round grade then they shouldn't just pick an o-lineman to show commitment to building it.
In essence, it depends on how good the team already is/n't. The "best players available" go in the top five or ten: The best player LEFT is ALL that's left at pick #24. And if the drafts best "available" talent ISN'T, why not fill one of the few holes that cost the last playoff game, rather than reaching for an All Pro at the bottom of the first? Playoff teams have few enough holes there's a good chance they couldn't use him even if they GOT him. Our first 2015 pick's a textbook example:

Yes, Shane Ray appears an elite OLB, but wouldn't have been "available" at #24 if not busted for pot just DAYS before the draft; we got lucky, and still took an ongoing chance he won't repeat stupid behavior. Further, even if he keeps his nose clean and keeps playing well, he's FOURTH on the depth chart behind a probable HoFer on one side opposite an All Pro on the other, with a 2nd year UDFA playing phenomenally behind him. We spent the #24 overall on a guy 4th on our depth chart.

Yes, Ware's aging and expensive; yes, Miller's in a contract year: We'll franchise Miller if forced, and still have Barrett if Ware retires/declines. So we spent a 1st round pick on a rotational/injury player, awful value even if we lacked far more urgent needs, which we DO; our line's so bad it sandwiched a SB beatdown between two winless postseasons.

The time to draft the best player available is when he IS: With a playoff spectators Top 10 picks. All but a few of the drafts best ARE still available (partly because a few desperate losing teams fill just ONE of COUNTLESS needs with lesser players, sacrificing a rare shot at the best available.) Also teams with high picks have "needs" EVERYWHERE, so the best player available probably fills one anyway. Even if they do double up All Pros, one can be traded to fill several of many needs.

Now, which position were WE in last offseason? Had we still been a 4-12 dumpster fire, spending the resulting #2 overall pick on "the best player not Andrew Luck" would've made perfect sense, as it did in 2011. But when TWO DOZEN teams (some of which could be selective, since they were already good enough to make the playoffs) all pass on a guy, they usually have a good reason. Even if they don't, spending a 1st round pick on a backups backup was pure waste that ignored one of our few championship obstacles.


Again, you can't forecast the most important player on your oline going down during OTAs.
Injuries happen, especially on the line and to players with existing injury histories; since we were ALREADY drafting a default starter late in the second, whom did that leave to fill unexpected holes? Second year 3rd round pick Michael Schofield, who'd already played him out of the starting job at the easier OT spot last year. Even when Clady was healthy, we had serious depth issues; once we lost him for the season, "serious" became "dire," forcing the Harris and then Polumbus signings.

That, and the comedy of errors caused by replacing 3/5 starting linemen SIMULTANEOUSLY, could've easily been avoided if we hadn't waited as long as possible to address a line we knew was a problem no later than the day it cost us a SB in the 2013 season. Instead of trying to salvage George Foster Jr. by making him a whiny subpar G when Beadles left, we should've gone ahead and found a legit LG AND RT to replace BOTH in a draft deep at those positions.

Then we'd just be trying to cover for Cladys injury and working Paradis into a solid starting C. That still wouldn't be easy, since both spots are critical, but would be manageable with this years draft and FA IF we had a solid RT and LG to go with a solid RG in Vasquez. Instead we had Vasquez and TBA, with a new complex playbook to boot, so NO ONE know what they're doing, let alone what anyone ELSE is doing. Vasquez might as well be a new starter, too: He doesn't know ANY of his linemates any better than they know him.

[Simple Jaded]

Elway signed FA Guard to big money and his own LT to big money, how is that in any way, shape or form "underpaying his OL"?

He let Beadles go because he didn't fit the system and generally sucked even if he did, he let Franklin walk because he got huge money in FA.

The alarming part of their choices on the OL is the type of player they're apparently looking for, unremarkable and average in every way just so long as they cut block.

[BroncoJoe]

This game makes me pretty nervous. Green Bay is right behind us in sacks with 23 - I hope Manning survives... They are ranked 22nd in rush defense though.

[Cugel]

Elway signed FA Guard to big money and his own LT to big money, how is that in any way, shape or form "underpaying his OL"?

He let Beadles go because he didn't fit the system and generally sucked even if he did, he let Franklin walk because he got huge money in FA.

The alarming part of their choices on the OL is the type of player they're apparently looking for, unremarkable and average in every way just so long as they cut block.


Evan Mathis: 8/25/2015: Signed a one-year, $3.25 million contract. The deal included a $1 million signing bonus. Another $1.5 million is available through incentives.

Sorry, but this is not "big money." Here's what Orlando Franklin got:



Free agent G/T Orlando Franklin's deal with the Chargers is for five years and $36.5 million with $20 million guaranteed.

No long term guaranteed contract versus $20 million guaranteed contract. Not big money versus big money.

The handwriting is on the wall with Clady who's been injured for the season 2 of the last 3 years and ineffective last year. Clady is done with the Broncos who will let him go next off-season, rather than pay him $9.5 million.

And the type of player they are looking for in FA is "will come cheap" "will work for food-stamps."

[Cugel]

The comedy of errors caused by replacing 3/5 starting linemen SIMULTANEOUSLY, could've easily been avoided if we hadn't waited as long as possible to address a line we knew was a problem no later than the day it cost us a SB in the 2013 season. Instead of trying to salvage George Foster Jr. by making him a whiny subpar G when Beadles left, we should've gone ahead and found a legit LG AND RT to replace BOTH in a draft deep at those positions.

I would simply repeat this so it maybe sinks in for a couple of Broncos fans.

The reason some knowledgeable fans are upset at the OL this season is that Elway should have known about this problem for 3 years now and has done essentially nothing to fix it.

Elway kept insisting that Michael Schofield was going to be "given a chance." Well, Schofield was a bust last year when they tried to use him, so why would they think this year would be different? And what's the plan if he flames out - just like he in fact has done once again? Career journeyman re-tread Ryan Harris? Tyler Polumbus? (Same thing).

How much of a wasted pick was Cody Latimer? I can understand that they wanted to find a replacement for Wes Welker, but this was the 2nd round, #56, which is where you can still find plenty of good OL. Ty Sambrailo was #59.

How much better would the Broncos OL woes look right now if, instead of drafting a WR, they had gotten a RT back in the 2nd round in the 2014 draft?

The draft requires looking ahead, and Elway just ignored the biggest problem on the team for three straight years. Well, this year it's bitten them in the ass.

And fans who have been yelling about this for 3 straight years now have a right to complain.

[NightTerror218]

OL improved last game. Schofield held up fine last game and also had his first start this season. He is young WTF do you want, an all pro out of him right out of the gates?

Knowledgeable fans are upset by the play of the offense. And know it's not just the OL or all just Peyton. Peyton is one of the worst QBs in the league. Seattle has a worse line then Peyton and he is playing better. You can blame poor decision making on the OL every time.

[BroncoJoe]

Yep - NOTHING has been addressed on the OL.

Talk about someone who doesn't pay attention. Sad, really.

[Joel]

Sorry, but this is not "big money." Here's what Orlando Franklin got:

No long term guaranteed contract versus $20 million guaranteed contract. Not big money versus big money.

The handwriting is on the wall with Clady who's been injured for the season 2 of the last 3 years and ineffective last year. Clady is done with the Broncos who will let him go next off-season, rather than pay him $9.5 million.

And the type of player they are looking for in FA is "will come cheap" "will work for food-stamps."

I could be wrong, but believe he was referring to Vasquez, whom we gave a deal comparable to Franklins (and several years earlier) and immediately got an All Pro season for it. We're essentially paying Vasquez what Beadles and Franklin wanted and got, and he's much better than both, which is a clear upgrade. The problem is we didn't bother to do something like that until injury ended Kupers career, just as we did nothing about Beadles or Franklins departure till AFTER they left.

When we do that, Vasquez is the best case scenario: An All Pro in his prime, whom we must pay accordingly. More common and likely (especially since we've deprioritized the line) is that we grab and IMMEDIATELY START scrub FAs like Ramirez and Clark, or bust rookies like Franklin. We drafted Welkers replacement TWO years early, but won't draft replacement guards OR tackles till the old ones are gone. Then we wonder why our revolving door RBs can't average >3 yds/att and our QB's always limping by Thanksgiving.

Again, Elway LIVED there his whole career, so either knows better or should. As you say, you, me and a few others have been BEGGING for decent linemen at LEAST three years. The problem was clear no later than 2011, when we essentially ended McGahees career by leading the league in rushing on the back of him leading the league in yards AFTER CONTACT, while Moreno limped alongside him, dancing and crumpling while inattentive fans called him a bust.

Ultimately, it all goes back to McDumbass blowing up the interior line with handpicked studs who turned out to be duds, from which we've never recovered. Clady and Kuper practically carried Walton and Beadles (Walton's not even PLAYING anymore) and Elway simply applied bandaids when they left. It's no better outside though, because Elway evidently didn't get the memo that promising OTs no longer last past the 50th pick. Thus our starting RT's the guy Franklin was DRAFTED to replace: Ryan Harris.

On that note (since you've given him a lot of grief:) Harris isn't elite, but not bad. Except for his rookie year, he always started in Denver when healthy; he was just so UNhealthy it cost him the job. So he moved on to Houston, but "only" starting 6 games is an accomplishment on a team with All Pro Duane Brown at LT and solid Derek Newton at RT. Most OTs would have a hard time cracking that starting lineup, but Harris is a reliable swing tackle, and the only offensive player other Daniels who knows Kubiaks playbook.

[Joel]

Yep - NOTHING has been addressed on the OL.

Talk about someone who doesn't pay attention. Sad, really.
The 9th and 10th OTs taken in two drafts isn't "addressing" the line, not when OTs are so highly prized to protect QBs. Waiting till a SUPPLEMENTAL 4th round pick to take a guard when we've had nothing but a gaping hole at LG since before the SB addresses nothing either, nor does waiting til the eleventh hour to sign an aging FA fresh off surgery. Sure, we paid Clady: But we ALREADY had him, and STILL franchised him for a year; it's not like we were gonna let one of the best LTs walk when he was already on the roster.

Like it or not, the signature moment of Denvers Manning era isn't the 55th TD nor 28 pt comeback against SD: It's Ramirez sending the SBs first snap through our end zone.

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about how N*, Seattle, Indy and seemingly EVERYONE "has a much worse line than ours." To hear some people talk one would think we have a top five line instead of BOTTOM five. Name three other teams with only ONE returning starter on their line, much less THREE starters who had 0 NFL snaps COMBINED before Opening Day. Who's really not paying attention? Let's make it coma patient simple; is it more likely that:

1) EVERYONE ON OUR WHOLE OFFENSE sucks (except Sanders and, usually, DT) or 2) our whole offense LOOKS like it sucks because the line's so bad we can't run OR pass?

[Northman]

OL improved last game. Schofield held up fine last game and also had his first start this season. He is young WTF do you want, an all pro out of him right out of the gates?

Knowledgeable fans are upset by the play of the offense. And know it's not just the OL or all just Peyton. Peyton is one of the worst QBs in the league. Seattle has a worse line then Peyton and he is playing better. You can blame poor decision making on the OL every time.

I do think that is kind of funny. Some people get mad at the criticism of Manning but then have no problem turning around and absolutely trashing players in the backfield or Oline or even coach. :lol:

[Joel]

I do think that is kind of funny. Some people get mad at the criticism of Manning but then have no problem turning around and absolutely trashing players in the backfield or Oline or even coach. :lol:
Who's mad at the backfield or coach? Our awful line limits them every bit as much as it limits Manning, because that's the problem: EVERYTHING the offense does begins with and thus depends on the line; if it sucks, so will everything else. And, as Cugel noted, it's not just random anonymous internet posters saying so, but people who've played and/or coached enough NFL football to make a good living telling people what they've learned about it.

If anything it's the other way around, with critics of Manning claiming HIS limitations reduce Kubiaks expansive playbook to a cheat sheet, and that our rarely used running game that doesn't even INVOLVE Manning (except when he throws a block because his linemen don't) is failing because his passing failures invites teams to stack the box. Again, use a little common sense: Which affects running more, the QB handing off, or the FIVE linemen pulling to lead block and sealing off the in- and backside?

[Yashahla17]

I mean, he has spent multiple high draft picks on it over the past few years. And he brought in Mathis who was a pro bowler last year. Vasquez was another big signing there. So I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't prioritized that area. You expect your high draft picks to be good players and you can't forecast your best lineman going down for the year.

Were seeing why the eagles would cut a pro bowler. Mathis doesn't look like a pro bowl guard. Max Garcia is coming for that spot.

[Yashahla17]

Father time is undefeated, but he can still get it done. Tom Brady is considered great and he lives off of 7 yard passes on pick plays. There is no reason Manning can't.

Difference is tom brady passes don't fly in the dirt nor do they miss by 2-5 yards consistently. It also,doesn't hurt when he throw, he also doesn't have numb fingers

[Yashahla17]

This game makes me pretty nervous. Green Bay is right behind us in sacks with 23 - I hope Manning survives... They are ranked 22nd in rush defense though.

Cleveland had the worst ranked defense and the offense still struggled badly. Don't expect any shot of exposing any chunks in the green bay armor. This offense better bring it or else,its going to get ugly

[Joel]

Were seeing why the eagles would cut a pro bowler. Mathis doesn't look like a pro bowl guard. Max Garcia is coming for that spot.
Maybe, though it's hard to expect much of a 4th round SUPPLEMENTAL pick: That means EVERY team (including us) passed on him FOUR TIMES. The thing is, Mathis isn't our only All Pro, and Vasquez looks like crap, too, as does two-time Pro Bowler Owen Daniels, who played great right up until he got to Denver. I still think a lot of the problem is trying to simultaneously fill 3 holes with new players, exacerbated by a new play compendium and adding a 4th new starter when we lost Clady. Basically, the threadstarter.

So I still expect it to improve GRADUALLY and EVENTUALLY, but whether it'll be soon enough for a SB run is doubtful. There's a reason NO head coach has EVER won a SB his first year with a team: It takes more than a single offseason to transition even the best players from one system to another. The asterisk exception (i.e. Seifert) illustrates the point, because he was promoted by the SAME team (and defending champs,) so nothing really changed for him or them.

Pity we didn't hire our current coaches the moment Houston fired them (as I wanted,) else we'd be running on all cylinders now and in a great position to finally get over the championship hump. However, a SB team firing its whole coaching staff and hiring the one the last place team just fired would've been unprecedented.

[Cugel]

I could be wrong, but believe he was referring to Vasquez, whom we gave a deal comparable to Franklins (and several years earlier) and immediately got an All Pro season for it. We're essentially paying Vasquez what Beadles and Franklin wanted and got, and he's much better than both, which is a clear upgrade. The problem is we didn't bother to do something like that until injury ended Kupers career, just as we did nothing about Beadles or Franklins departure till AFTER they left.

When we do that, Vasquez is the best case scenario: An All Pro in his prime, whom we must pay accordingly. More common and likely (especially since we've deprioritized the line) is that we grab and IMMEDIATELY START scrub FAs like Ramirez and Clark, or bust rookies like Franklin. We drafted Welkers replacement TWO years early, but won't draft replacement guards OR tackles till the old ones are gone. Then we wonder why our revolving door RBs can't average >3 yds/att and our QB's always limping by Thanksgiving.

Again, Elway LIVED there his whole career, so either knows better or should. As you say, you, me and a few others have been BEGGING for decent linemen at LEAST three years. The problem was clear no later than 2011, when we essentially ended McGahees career by leading the league in rushing on the back of him leading the league in yards AFTER CONTACT, while Moreno limped alongside him, dancing and crumpling while inattentive fans called him a bust.

Ultimately, it all goes back to McDumbass blowing up the interior line with handpicked studs who turned out to be duds, from which we've never recovered. Clady and Kuper practically carried Walton and Beadles (Walton's not even PLAYING anymore) and Elway simply applied bandaids when they left. It's no better outside though, because Elway evidently didn't get the memo that promising OTs no longer last past the 50th pick. Thus our starting RT's the guy Franklin was DRAFTED to replace: Ryan Harris.

On that note (since you've given him a lot of grief:) Harris isn't elite, but not bad. Except for his rookie year, he always started in Denver when healthy; he was just so UNhealthy it cost him the job. So he moved on to Houston, but "only" starting 6 games is an accomplishment on a team with All Pro Duane Brown at LT and solid Derek Newton at RT. Most OTs would have a hard time cracking that starting lineup, but Harris is a reliable swing tackle, and the only offensive player other Daniels who knows Kubiaks playbook.

I'm not knocking the signing of Ryan Harris, any more than I'm knocking the signing of Evan Mathis. Can you imagine how horrible this OL would have been if they just gritted their teeth and said "we're going to win or bust with Michael Schofield"? Or line up with 4 basically rookies to try and protect their 39 year old QB?

It's was my idea when Peyton first came to town was that the ONE thing Denver needed most to win a SB was to get the best, stud pass-blocking OL in football for him. Because even in 2012 Peyton didn't have any mobility and his arm strength was well below average. I remembered how the Miami Dolphins surrounded an immobile Dan Marino with really good drop-back pass-blockers.

And I thought then, and I'm sure now, that if Elway had prioritized doing that - going out in the NFL draft and getting the best pass-blockers he could, then there was at least a chance that the team could have won a SB by now. You have to prioritize getting the most out of your star players.

The amazing success Wade Phillips is having this year proves that. Same crew that was 18th in the league in scoring defense last year is now #1.

There's nothing wrong with the players. They are doing the best they can. There's no suggestion that anybody on that OL isn't trying hard. The OL coaches are trying everything they can think of to get these guys coached up. They just are severely lacking in talent and experience right now, especially at RT. I think that Sambrailo, Max Garcia, and Paradis will all improve with experience. Mathis and Vasquez have been playing hurt. Ryan Harris might be OK if they can move him back to RT and leave him there for the rest of the season. But, will it really be good enough?

And you're kinda making my point about Harris not starting in Texas. He's a backup. He's a player who's valuable on your team if the starter gets hurt, and they need somebody to fill in. Rather similar to Chris Clark. Texans had some pretty good OL. He just wasn't one of them.

[Joel]

I'm not knocking the signing of Ryan Harris, any more than I'm knocking the signing of Evan Mathis. Can you imagine how horrible this OL would have been if they just gritted their teeth and said "we're going to win or bust with Michael Schofield"? Or line up with 4 basically rookies to try and protect their 39 year old QB?

It's was my idea when Peyton first came to town was that the ONE thing Denver needed most to win a SB was to get the best, stud pass-blocking OL in football for him. Because even in 2012 Peyton didn't have any mobility and his arm strength was well below average. I remembered how the Miami Dolphins surrounded an immobile Dan Marino with really good drop-back pass-blockers.

And I thought then, and I'm sure now, that if Elway had prioritized doing that - going out in the NFL draft and getting the best pass-blockers he could, then there was at least a chance that the team could have won a SB by now. You have to prioritize getting the most out of your star players.

The amazing success Wade Phillips is having this year proves that. Same crew that was 18th in the league in scoring defense last year is now #1.
Fair enough; we agree then. My only quibble is that signing Manning didn't just demand great pass blockers (and the Marino comparison remains a great one) but good blockers, PERIOD, so he had enough run support he didn't have to be a one-man offense (like Marino.) But your other posts suggest we're largely agree there, too.


There's nothing wrong with the players. They are doing the best they can. There's no suggestion that anybody on that OL isn't trying hard. The OL coaches are trying everything they can think of to get these guys coached up. They just are severely lacking in talent and experience right now, especially at RT. I think that Sambrailo, Max Garcia, and Paradis will all improve with experience. Mathis and Vasquez have been playing hurt. Ryan Harris might be OK if they can move him back to RT and leave him there for the rest of the season. But, will it really be good enough?

I honestly don't know how good they are/n't, only that they're better than the bums we had (which is setting the bar low.) There's little reason to believe the 9th OT taken in this draft is any better than the 10th taken in last years, or that a SUPPLEMENTAL 4th rounder is starting material either. I trust our coaches consistent record of excellent lines to make ours adequate in time, but Manning has no time LEFT to wait for what should've been done before we signed him. And they have a lot of work to do regardless.


And you're kinda making my point about Harris not starting in Texas. He's a backup. He's a player who's valuable on your team if the starter gets hurt, and they need somebody to fill in. Rather similar to Chris Clark. Texans had some pretty good OL. He just wasn't one of them.
He's started throughout his CAREER except for his rookie season and those two years in Houston; the Texans just already HAD two excellent starters, so signed him to be a solid backup to prevent being naked when Brown and/or Newton got hurt. Denvers front office forgetting what decent line depth looks like is no reason we should do the same. ;)

[Yashahla17]

Maybe, though it's hard to expect much of a 4th round SUPPLEMENTAL pick: That means EVERY team (including us) passed on him FOUR TIMES. The thing is, Mathis isn't our only All Pro, and Vasquez looks like crap, too, as does two-time Pro Bowler Owen Daniels, who played great right up until he got to Denver. I still think a lot of the problem is trying to simultaneously fill 3 holes with new players, exacerbated by a new play compendium and adding a 4th new starter when we lost Clady. Basically, the threadstarter.

So I still expect it to improve GRADUALLY and EVENTUALLY, but whether it'll be soon enough for a SB run is doubtful. There's a reason NO head coach has EVER won a SB his first year with a team: It takes more than a single offseason to transition even the best players from one system to another. The asterisk exception (i.e. Seifert) illustrates the point, because he was promoted by the SAME team (and defending champs,) so nothing really changed for him or them.

Pity we didn't hire our current coaches the moment Houston fired them (as I wanted,) else we'd be running on all cylinders now and in a great position to finally get over the championship hump. However, a SB team firing its whole coaching staff and hiring the one the last place team just fired would've been unprecedented.
M
You say supplement draft pick as if that's somehow saying something. It doesn't matter when you were drafted if you put in the work and prove you can play. Max garcia is coming for his spot hence why hes started getting reps during live games. They want to get his feet wet. Mathis isnt doing anything to lock down the spot and he damn sure dont look pro bowlish. If theres noway any coach could win the superbowl his first year then there was no need to bring manning back. Its a wasted year. Where we wasted a ton of cap space on a qb whose finished and according to you was never going tomwin a superbowl. So i dont want to hear you about manning anymore. He aint winning a superbowl and this is indeed his last year because hes finished physical.

[NightTerror218]

So no new head coach has ever won a SB? Has a new head coach ever been hired for a team filled with pro bowlers and most skill position. The #1 defense, HOF QB, pro bowl WR?

Kubiak came on to a stacked team. One of the best rosters.

Most new coaches come in after the team hits rock bottom and has no progressed under last head coach.

I think that is a dumb argument.

[Yashahla17]

So no new head coach has ever won a SB? Has a new head coach ever been hired for a team filled with pro bowlers and most skill position. The #1 defense, HOF QB, pro bowl WR?

Kubiak came on to a stacked team. One of the best rosters.

Most new coaches come in after the team hits rock bottom and has no progressed under last head coach.

I think that is a dumb argument.

They come up with all kinds of excuses for manning. Definitely covering all,bases of the art of excuse making. Its everybody else fault and its noway he could win it this year anyway with a new coach.

[Joel]

You say supplement draft pick as if that's somehow saying something.
Yeah: It says EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE REJECTED GARCIA FOUR TIMES. What are the odds all 32 scouting departments overlooked a stud that many times?


It doesn't matter when you were drafted if you put in the work and prove you can play. Max garcia is coming for his spot hence why hes started getting reps during live games. They want to get his feet wet. Mathis isnt doing anything to lock down the spot and he damn sure dont look pro bowlish.

Mathis is fresh off major surgery and turns 34 the day GB (probably) stomps the crap out of us in our own house: That's why he a ONE YEAR deal, nearly HALF of it incentive based. Garcia or someone is almost certainly coming for his job next year regardless of how he plays, but that says more of where he is in his career than it does their ability.


If theres noway any coach could win the superbowl his first year then there was no need to bring manning back. Its a wasted year. Where we wasted a ton of cap space on a qb whose finished and according to you was never going tomwin a superbowl. So i dont want to hear you about manning anymore. He aint winning a superbowl and this is indeed his last year because hes finished physical.

Not so: Manning sticking around gives Oz a full season to learn Kubiaks complex playbook while we rebuild a line for him from Vasquez, a limping Clady and NOTHING ELSE. In the interim, even a 39-year-old first ballot HoFer still gives us a better chance to win than a career benchwarmer (especially since is the first year Oz has had first team practice.)

[Yashahla17]

Lol what the **** are you talking about? Scouting department? They miss all the time in all rounds. If they didnt there wouldn't be a draft every year because every team would be set and stacked. You and cubel are lost causes.

[Joel]

So no new head coach has ever won a SB? Has a new head coach ever been hired for a team filled with pro bowlers and most skill position. The #1 defense, HOF QB, pro bowl WR?
Sure, lots of times: It's the only reason Kubiak was AVAILABLE, we did it to Wade and Reeves, Houston did it to Pardee and Wades dad—and that's just TWO cities. The year after Houston fired Kubiak because injuries and Schaubs flame out ruined a SINGLE season, SF did it to Harbaugh: All the lousy bum did with his stacked team was get them to three straight NFCCGs with a tight SB between them, so out the door he went the FIRST season they missed the playoffs.

Perhaps the best example is the first team to win 3 SBs in 4 years: Jimmy Johnson quit after back-to-back championships, so Barry Switzer came in to win a third—TWO years later; they lost the NFCCG to SF his first season, despite beating them in the previous two NFCCGs AND the next.

Those are just off the top of my head, based on the handful of teams I like; there are plenty of other examples if anyone needs more. Stacked teams fire underperforming coaches about as often losers do, and sometimes have great success WITH "successors." But NEVER the ULTIMATE success the FIRST year; the transition's just too great, and affects every part of the team. Maybe Kubes will be the first exception; I'd love to see that, for Wade even more than Manning. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Joel]

Lol what the **** are you talking about? Scouting department? They miss all the time in all rounds. If they didnt there wouldn't be a draft every year because every team would be set and stacked. You and cubel are lost causes.
They don't ALL miss FOUR TIMES, else they'd all be fired. Late round studs are memorable precisely because they're the rare exceptions who prove the rule.

[Simple Jaded]

The Broncos have two big ticket items on the OL, theyre not "underpaying" shit.

[Joel]

The Broncos have two big ticket items on the OL, theyre not "underpaying" shit.
One of them was already here before Elways return though, and the payday he'd EARNED was delayed a year by Elway franchise tagging him to spend money elsewhere. No points for that; it's understood a former NFL QB wouldn't bring in an immobile 36-year-old surgically repaired fellow QB, then blow off a top blindside protector.

Yet 1 OT=/=5 linemen, and not signing Vasquez till the Chiefs ripped off Kupers foot, then shuffling around the likes of Franklin, Clark and Ramirez to replace already substandard Beadles and Walton, is not "addressing the line." Hell, Koppen RETIRED the year after we brought him in as cheap one-year rental (much like Mathis now,) and the time that bought was used so wisely we wound up coaxing him OUT of retirement for another season. Then he tore is ACL in camp and we were back to bupkis. Witness the results.

[Simple Jaded]

Elways given two OLman big contracts, he's drafted 3 OLman in the 4th round or higher (ostensively to start) and he's also signed another ProBowl G when it was clear they needed more help. That's 6 players whom they've intended on starting, 2 of them well paid.

The Broncos have addressed the OL, we can debate the results but saying they've haven't addressed the OL is borderline retarded.

[NightTerror218]

Elways given two OLman big contracts, he's drafted 3 OLman in the 4th round or higher (ostensively to start) and he's also signed another ProBowl G when it was clear they needed more help. That's 6 players whom they've intended on starting, 2 of them well paid.

The Broncos have addressed the OL, we can debate the results but saying they've haven't addressed the OL is borderline retarded.

Joel........

Either trade Sly, Ray, or Roby for an OL. No much harder to hit on OL then talent that falls to you like these guys.

2013 there was a run on OL in round 1 and Sly dropped to us. Who would you rather have taken. The next drafted OL was Frederick the current C for cowboys.

2014 instead of Roby was considered one of the top CB and fell due to personality concwrns, who would you take? Of of the next OL drafted the only one that has stood out is Bitiono from what I have seen.

2015 Ray who was considered a top 10 talent fell to us. Who would you have taken?

Go back further 2012, we got Wolfe. Who would you have drafted. Mitchell Swartz. Jonathan Martin? Cordy Glenn? These were the next OL drafted.

[Joel]

Elways given two OLman big contracts
But only ONE of them was ADDED; again, no points for PRESERVING something SHANNY accomplished in 2008, especially by making him wait a whole acrimonious season through a franchise tag. ELWAYS ONE line achievement was getting an All Pro AFTER Kuper retired.


he's drafted 3 OLman in the 4th round or higher (ostensively to start)
Sorry, 4th rounders aren't projected starters, especially not SUPPLEMENTAL 4th rounders (i.e. guys taken after the LAST natural 4th round pick.) The NEXT TO LAST 3rd round pick's only marginally better, especially when it's an OT: The ELEVENTH OT and TWELFTH G drafted are "ostentive starters"? The 95th and 133rd overall picks? Then you're doing something horrifyingly wrong; you're certainly not "addressing" the line in anything but a token unprioritized manner.


and he's also signed another ProBowl G when it was clear they needed more help.
At the last second, after the guy missed nearly the whole offseason recovering from surgery.


That's 6 players whom they've intended on starting, 2 of them well paid.
Well, y'know, they were ALWAYS going to "intend" to start at least 5, even if every mothers son of them was a UDFA making the rookie minimum, so big deal. Only ONE of the guys Elway brought in was good enough to command a top contract; again, he gets no points for not blowing off a top LT Shanny'd already given him.


The Broncos have addressed the OL, we can debate the results but saying they've haven't addressed the OL is borderline retarded.
They've ONLY ever addressed it when forced, and even then only as an afterthought. Again, bringing in (and appropriately paying) Vasquez AFTER injury ended Kupers career was good, but waiting till AFTER scrubs like Beadles, Walton and Franklin LEFT, then only replacing them with OTHER scrubs like Ramirez, Clark and Cornick is inexcusable. Actually, Elway deserves a C grade effort spending the #46 pick on Franklin: Mid-2nd rounders can go either way; just Elways bad luck Franklin went the WRONG way.

Yet other than that and Vasquez he didn't even TRY to fix the line even after it singlehandedly and embarrassingly cost us one of those championships he was hired to win. Sure, we spent a(nother late) 2nd round pick this drafts NINTH OT, but that was yet again closing the barn door after the cows got out: Manning may or may not see Sambrailo become a stud, but will see it from his COUCH either way. The last second signing of a convalescing Mathis is similar: At LEAST a year late.

[NightTerror218]

Sure, lots of times: It's the only reason Kubiak was AVAILABLE, we did it to Wade and Reeves, Houston did it to Pardee and Wades dad—and that's just TWO cities. The year after Houston fired Kubiak because injuries and Schaubs flame out ruined a SINGLE season, SF did it to Harbaugh: All the lousy bum did with his stacked team was get them to three straight NFCCGs with a tight SB between them, so out the door he went the FIRST season they missed the playoffs.

Perhaps the best example is the first team to win 3 SBs in 4 years: Jimmy Johnson quit after back-to-back championships, so Barry Switzer came in to win a third—TWO years later; they lost the NFCCG to SF his first season, despite beating them in the previous two NFCCGs AND the next.

Those are just off the top of my head, based on the handful of teams I like; there are plenty of other examples if anyone needs more. Stacked teams fire underperforming coaches about as often losers do, and sometimes have great success WITH "successors." But NEVER the ULTIMATE success the FIRST year; the transition's just too great, and affects every part of the team. Maybe Kubes will be the first exception; I'd love to see that, for Wade even more than Manning. But I'm not holding my breath.

There are good teams and then the top roster in the NFL. I believe Denver had led with the most ayers selected to pro bowl in last couple yrs.

None of you examples were any where close to the top rosters in the league. Cowboy example is pretty close and that happens to point towards the point that Kubiak can take this team to SB rather then saying not. A stacked team is matter of opinion but a team with 11 pro bowlers is a top roster.

[NightTerror218]

But only ONE of them was ADDED; again, no points for PRESERVING something SHANNY accomplished in 2008, especially by making him wait a whole acrimonious season through a franchise tag. ELWAYS ONE line achievement was getting an All Pro AFTER Kuper retired.

Sorry, 4th rounders aren't projected starters, especially not SUPPLEMENTAL 4th rounders (i.e. guys taken after the LAST natural 4th round pick.) The NEXT TO LAST 3rd round pick's only marginally better, especially when it's an OT: The ELEVENTH OT and TWELFTH G drafted are "ostentive starters"? The 95th and 133rd overall picks? Then you're doing something horrifyingly wrong; you're certainly not "addressing" the line in anything but a token unprioritized manner.

At the last second, after the guy missed nearly the whole offseason recovering from surgery.

Well, y'know, they were ALWAYS going to "intend" to start at least 5, even if every mothers son of them was a UDFA making the rookie minimum, so big deal. Only ONE of the guys Elway brought in was good enough to command a top contract; again, he gets no points for not blowing off a top LT Shanny'd already given him.

They've ONLY ever addressed it when forced, and even then only as an afterthought. Again, bringing in (and appropriately paying) Vasquez AFTER injury ended Kupers career was good, but waiting till AFTER scrubs like Beadles, Walton and Franklin LEFT, then only replacing them with OTHER scrubs like Ramirez, Clark and Cornick is inexcusable. Actually, Elway deserves a C grade effort spending the #46 pick on Franklin: Mid-2nd rounders can go either way; just Elways bad luck Franklin went the WRONG way.

Yet other than that and Vasquez he didn't even TRY to fix the line even after it singlehandedly and embarrassingly cost us one of those championships he was hired to win. Sure, we spent a(nother late) 2nd round pick this drafts NINTH OT, but that was yet again closing the barn door after the cows got out: Manning may or may not see Sambrailo become a stud, but will see it from his COUCH either way. The last second signing of a convalescing Mathis is similar: At LEAST a year late.
The first line is the dumbest thing I have ever read, no credit for KEEPING CLADY on the team.

[Joel]

There are good teams and then the top roster in the NFL. I believe Denver had led with the most ayers selected to pro bowl in last couple yrs.

None of you examples were any where close to the top rosters in the league. Cowboy example is pretty close and that happens to point towards the point that Kubiak can take this team to SB rather then saying not. A stacked team is matter of opinion but a team with 11 pro bowlers is a top roster.
So we're moving the goalposts from "no good team ever replaced its coach" to "no team with the most Pro Bowlers ever replaced its coach." If Switzer couldn't do it with the two-time defending Champs, Kubiak probably can't with a one-and-done team. I'd love to see him make history, because of what it would mean for him, Wade and Manning as well as us, but I'll believe it when I see it. If only because three seasons of living and dying by every Broncos snap is all my heart can take; I'm not going through the Oilers again.


The first line is the dumbest thing I have ever read, no credit for KEEPING CLADY on the team.
KEEPING a stud's infinitely easier than FINDING and RECRUITING one; the draft's a crap shoot and free agency's a bidding war. All he had to do to keep Clady was pay him what protecting an immobile 39-year-old surgically repaired HoF QB was worth—and it STILL took TWO seasons. Not like LT was the only critical line problem that needed address either; there's a reason Kubiak replaced 3/5 nominal starters. Elways best (and almost ONLY) line signing was him and Dennison, but probably too late to do Manning any good.

Fingers crossed Oz is the real deal or Elway and Kubiak quickly find a guy who is, because that's probably our only hope of winning a SB while our roster's MOSTLY stacked.

[NightTerror218]

So we're moving the goalposts from "no good team ever replaced its coach" to "no team with the most Pro Bowlers ever replaced its coach." If Switzer couldn't do it with the two-time defending Champs, Kubiak probably can't with a one-and-done team. I'd love to see him make history, because of what it would mean for him, Wade and Manning as well as us, but I'll believe it when I see it. If only because three seasons of living and dying by every Broncos snap is all my heart can take; I'm not going through the Oilers again.

KEEPING a stud's infinitely easier than FINDING and RECRUITING one; the draft's a crap shoot and free agency's a bidding war. All he had to do to keep Clady was pay him what protecting an immobile 39-year-old surgically repaired HoF QB was worth—and it STILL took TWO seasons. Not like LT was the only critical line problem that needed address either; there's a reason Kubiak replaced 3/5 nominal starters. Elways best (and almost ONLY) line signing was him and Dennison, but probably too late to do Manning any good.

Fingers crossed Oz is the real deal or Elway and Kubiak quickly find a guy who is, because that's probably our only hope of winning a SB while our roster's MOSTLY stacked.

No "moving goalposts" just stop reading between the lines where nothings there. I said a team this stacked. Referring to this teams roster, the team with 11 pro bowlers.

Your other paragraph makes no sence. You gave no credit to Elway for resigning Clady and said he only gets credit for signing vasquez. Therefore only helped getting one OL to help Manning. No credit for drafting any OL in rounds 2-3 for some reason. Oh because it does not support your argument that he has ignored the OL.

[Joel]

Either trade Sly, Ray, or Roby for an OL. No much harder to hit on OL then talent that falls to you like these guys.

Hell, yes, I'd swap a FOURTH STRING OLB to replace one of our crappy linemen with a good one, and said so at the time: 1st round picks are for starters, not subs. And, as good as Ray looks early, that's ALL he'll be as long as we have Miller and Barrett, even if we don't re-sign Ware next year (which we probably would right now.)


2013 there was a run on OL in round 1 and Sly dropped to us. Who would you rather have taken. The next drafted OL was Frederick the current C for cowboys.
Yeah, they were roundly mocked for that, too, but making an awful line great in just two years was the talk of last years league, matched only by: Talk of OUR awful line costing us a SB and dooming our chances of returning to one. Also, former Cowboys C Phil Costa cost them MULTIPLE games by routinely making snaps that would embarrass Manny Ramirez; Romo had enough problems without having to chase wild pitches every time he dropped back in shotgun (which, with their line at the time, was often.)

More importantly, Sly sat behind Vickerson and Knighton till Vickerson got hurt: Again, 1st round picks are for starters (e.g. Frederick) not subs.


2014 instead of Roby was considered one of the top CB and fell due to personality concwrns, who would you take? Of of the next OL drafted the only one that has stood out is Bitiono from what I have seen.

That's a tougher call, because NBs effectively ARE starters in the modern league. Still, we had elite CBs in Harris and Talib, and a very good sophomore in Webster, whose improvement all the Broncos beat writers and camp watchers raved about in preseason: We were well-staffed at starting CB spots, but out line was Swiss cheese. Bitonio's been good, and we could've used him immediately; Su'a-Filo's started every game in Houston, and was the guy I wanted based on what I'd heard from draftniks (I don't follow college.)


2015 Ray who was considered a top 10 talent fell to us. Who would you have taken?

See above.


Go back further 2012, we got Wolfe. Who would you have drafted. Mitchell Swartz. Jonathan Martin? Cordy Glenn? These were the next OL drafted.
We didn't HAVE to trade N* our 1st round pick (which they spent on Dont'a Hightower; nice job, Elway.) Before we took Hillman in the 3rd, we could've had:

#37 2012 All Rookie RT Mitchell Schwartz
#40 2012 All Rookie G Amini Silatolu
#41 Cordy Glenn, a top-rated G Buffalo converted to OT
#60 G Kelechi Osemele, who helped the Ravens win a SB by doing exactly what we SHOULD'VE: Rebuild an awful line into a good one.

That was JUST in 2012; most of 2013s top linemen went before Sly, but 2014 was also deep in linemen and we were a SB team: LOTS of good linemen went before we FINALLY tried to get one at #95—even though lacking THREE was the SOLE reason we weren't picking at #96.

#33 G Su'a-Filo I already covered.
#35 OT Joel Bitonio YOU covered.
#64 OT Justin Britt the SB CHAMPS got; he started in the next SB: Just not for us.
#66 OT Morgan Moses won Washingtons starting RT from 1st rounder Brandon Sherff, who promtply took the starting RG job from
#73 G Spencer Long (that young line bears watching.)
#81 G Gabe Jackson had lots of draft buzz, but slipped to the 3rd; now we face him twice/year playing Oakland.
#93 G Brandon Linder made PFFs Pro Bowl team (for whatever that's worth) as a reserve
#94 G Trai Turner went just 3 picks before Schofield, then proceeded to make an All Rookie team while Schofield sat on our bench.

WHY did you make me go through all the top offensive line prospects we rejected to overload EXISTING STRENGTHS while ignoring FATAL WEAKNESSES?! It's depressing and frustrating to recall in detail. Good starting linemen (especially not OTs, which are at a premium) aren't found on the NEXT TO LAST 3rd round pick (that's practically an early 4th) or in the SUPPLEMENTAL 4th round (practically an early 5th.)

Elway prioritized everything BUT the line, and our QB and RBs have had to live with the consequences. I gaurantee that's not what Manning expected when he signed on with a QB who got shelled in 3 SBs with bad lines in his prime, but won back-to-back with great ones when he hit retirement age. We drafted Welkers successor TWO years EARLY, but Beadles and Franklins TWO years LATE. Again, witness the result.

[Joel]

No "moving goalposts" just stop reading between the lines where nothings there. I said a team this stacked. Referring to this teams roster, the team with 11 pro bowlers.
Alright, but even with the qualifier, ALL of MANY stacked teams came up short their first year with a new coach. Technically, Tampas All Pro D's the exception, but that gets a huge asterisk because Grudens lone SB gave him the lucky luxury of dismantling a Raiders playbook he WROTE; after that, the team imploded and its fans found out Dungy didn't underperform, but got his players to overperform.


Your other paragraph makes no sence. You gave no credit to Elway for resigning Clady and said he only gets credit for signing vasquez. Therefore only helped getting one OL to help Manning. No credit for drafting any OL in rounds 2-3 for some reason. Oh because it does not support your argument that he has ignored the OL.

Again, good starting linemen (especially not OTs, which are at a premium) aren't found on the NEXT TO LAST 3rd round pick (that's practically an early 4th) or in the SUPPLEMENTAL 4th round (practically an early 5th.) Elway gets some credit for trying ONCE with Franklin, then FINALLY drafting a RT at the end of the 2nd this year, but it's too little, too late. Might do Oz some good next year; not helping Manning much now, because Elway waited till the whole line's a teardown, and it'll take time to rebuild and gel.

[Cugel]

Lol what the **** are you talking about? Scouting department? They miss all the time in all rounds. If they didnt there wouldn't be a draft every year because every team would be set and stacked. You and cubel are lost causes.

Said someone who has never bothered to actually go a look at NFL.com draft history and see how many late 2nd round or later QBs turn out to be any good in the last 15 years. The answer is ONE: Russell Wilson. Out of 138 QBs drafted in those spots. (And no! Matt Schaub, Kyle Orton and Nick Foles, etc. do not count).

They don't miss nearly as often as you seem to think. There are occasional exceptions (maybe every fifteen or 20 years there's a Tom Brady who slips to the 6th round). But, that's the exceptions that prove the rule.

As for other positions, its similar. Occasionally guys taken in the 3rd and 4th round turn out to be great, but "all the time" exaggerates the frequency with which that happens, because everybody remembers the few exceptions (Elvis Dumervil, 4th round) and forgets the far more frequent, eminently predictable failures (does anybody remember Broncos 4th round bust OL Phillip Blake? NO, I thought not).

[Cugel]

Alright, but even with the qualifier, ALL of MANY stacked teams came up short their first year with a new coach. Technically, Tampas All Pro D's the exception, but that gets a huge asterisk because Grudens lone SB gave him the lucky luxury of dismantling a Raiders playbook he WROTE; after that, the team imploded and its fans found out Dungy didn't underperform, but got his players to overperform.

Again, good starting linemen (especially not OTs, which are at a premium) aren't found on the NEXT TO LAST 3rd round pick (that's practically an early 4th) or in the SUPPLEMENTAL 4th round (practically an early 5th.) Elway gets some credit for trying ONCE with Franklin, then FINALLY drafting a RT at the end of the 2nd this year, but it's too little, too late. Might do Oz some good next year; not helping Manning much now, because Elway waited till the whole line's a teardown, and it'll take time to rebuild and gel.

What the posters who criticize your position are missing is that there is an expected draft round and position for where you expect to take OL. A guy who projects to be a great starting LT prospect is a top 15 pick, and maybe a top 10. If you don't draft him at that spot, some other team will take him ahead of you before you get the chance.

A guy who projects to be a good starting RT but is not mobile enough or have quick enough feet to project to be a starting LT maybe late 1st or early 2nd round if he's a top prospect.

A guy who falls to the 3rd or 4th round or later is simply not graded as a top OL prospect. There were 5 Ts taken in the 1st and 4 in the second, and Sambrailo was the last one drafted.

Sambrailo fell to the later 2nd round because he's not as big or strong as some guys taken higher, so he didn't grade out as a top LT prospect for most teams, and because he came from CSU which is a 2nd tier school playing in the Mountain West instead of the SEC. He's a good fit for a ZBS too because while he might not be a big mauler, he's got quick feet and he's intelligent.

He wasn't ever going to be a RT though. The plan was to get him some experience this season behind Ryan Clady, and then start him next season and dump Clady's $10 M contract. Clady's injury forced them to start him immediately, with unfortunate results.

[Valar Morghulis]

I would not trade roby , he is a future champ Bailey I love him.

I also hate how we use hindsight to justify mistakes. That's bull shit.

It's ok to make a decision at the time based on your information at the time and your assessment of that information - and for it to be wrong. Life is not an exact science.

[Northman]

I would not trade roby , he is a future champ Bailey I love him.

I also hate how we use hindsight to justify mistakes. That's bull shit.

It's ok to make a decision at the time based on your information at the time and your assessment of that information - and for it to be wrong. Life is not an exact science.

I havent really been following this conversation but saw your post. Did someone really mention trading Roby? That would be incredibly DUMB.

[NightTerror218]

I havent really been following this conversation but saw your post. Did someone really mention trading Roby? That would be incredibly DUMB.

Joel criticism of us not drafting an OL in 1st round basically. I asked who he would rather have taken in the 1st round over who we drafted the last few years. He rambled on and did not say too much, yet said a whole long because he is long windy and can not make a point in under 100 words.

[NightTerror218]

Hell, yes, I'd swap a FOURTH STRING OLB to replace one of our crappy linemen with a good one, and said so at the time: 1st round picks are for starters, not subs. And, as good as Ray looks early, that's ALL he'll be as long as we have Miller and Barrett, even if we don't re-sign Ware next year (which we probably would right now.)

Yeah, they were roundly mocked for that, too, but making an awful line great in just two years was the talk of last years league, matched only by: Talk of OUR awful line costing us a SB and dooming our chances of returning to one. Also, former Cowboys C Phil Costa cost them MULTIPLE games by routinely making snaps that would embarrass Manny Ramirez; Romo had enough problems without having to chase wild pitches every time he dropped back in shotgun (which, with their line at the time, was often.)

More importantly, Sly sat behind Vickerson and Knighton till Vickerson got hurt: Again, 1st round picks are for starters (e.g. Frederick) not subs.

That's a tougher call, because NBs effectively ARE starters in the modern league. Still, we had elite CBs in Harris and Talib, and a very good sophomore in Webster, whose improvement all the Broncos beat writers and camp watchers raved about in preseason: We were well-staffed at starting CB spots, but out line was Swiss cheese. Bitonio's been good, and we could've used him immediately; Su'a-Filo's started every game in Houston, and was the guy I wanted based on what I'd heard from draftniks (I don't follow college.)

See above.

We didn't HAVE to trade N* our 1st round pick (which they spent on Dont'a Hightower; nice job, Elway.) Before we took Hillman in the 3rd, we could've had:

#37 2012 All Rookie RT Mitchell Schwartz
#40 2012 All Rookie G Amini Silatolu
#41 Cordy Glenn, a top-rated G Buffalo converted to OT
#60 G Kelechi Osemele, who helped the Ravens win a SB by doing exactly what we SHOULD'VE: Rebuild an awful line into a good one.

That was JUST in 2012; most of 2013s top linemen went before Sly, but 2014 was also deep in linemen and we were a SB team: LOTS of good linemen went before we FINALLY tried to get one at #95—even though lacking THREE was the SOLE reason we weren't picking at #96.

#33 G Su'a-Filo I already covered.
#35 OT Joel Bitonio YOU covered.
#64 OT Justin Britt the SB CHAMPS got; he started in the next SB: Just not for us.
#66 OT Morgan Moses won Washingtons starting RT from 1st rounder Brandon Sherff, who promtply took the starting RG job from
#73 G Spencer Long (that young line bears watching.)
#81 G Gabe Jackson had lots of draft buzz, but slipped to the 3rd; now we face him twice/year playing Oakland.
#93 G Brandon Linder made PFFs Pro Bowl team (for whatever that's worth) as a reserve
#94 G Trai Turner went just 3 picks before Schofield, then proceeded to make an All Rookie team while Schofield sat on our bench.

WHY did you make me go through all the top offensive line prospects we rejected to overload EXISTING STRENGTHS while ignoring FATAL WEAKNESSES?! It's depressing and frustrating to recall in detail. Good starting linemen (especially not OTs, which are at a premium) aren't found on the NEXT TO LAST 3rd round pick (that's practically an early 4th) or in the SUPPLEMENTAL 4th round (practically an early 5th.)

Elway prioritized everything BUT the line, and our QB and RBs have had to live with the consequences. I gaurantee that's not what Manning expected when he signed on with a QB who got shelled in 3 SBs with bad lines in his prime, but won back-to-back with great ones when he hit retirement age. We drafted Welkers successor TWO years EARLY, but Beadles and Franklins TWO years LATE. Again, witness the result.

First round pick's are instant impact players, DL usually are not into prime for a couple years. Ray could be von miller 2.0. Would you pass on that opportunity with Ware and Miller near end of contracts. Thank god you are not GM drafting for need will doom a team. Drafting the best player on the board is how you build a team. Elway says fill a hole with FA and draft for future.he sticks to that.

Look at where most of those guys were project and who was taken around our pick. You can call out a 4th round pick and say we should ha e gotten him with our 2nd. That is like saying we should ha e drafted Brady with our 1st that year.

None of those guys you listed are pro bowlers.

[underrated29]

I havent read through this at all but I do know for a fact:


We wanted David Decastro and were going to take him in the first before he slipped to Pitts right before us.
We wanted Joel Bitonio and were hoping he would make it to us in the 2nd. He was considered in the first but there were other better players.
We wanted Xavier Rhodes in the first and the vikings nabbed him from us 2 picks or so before we could. Had we landed Rhodes, Roby would not be here

[Cugel]

One thing this discussion ignores is that there is FA in addition to the Draft. It's more expensive, but that is a decision where you want to spend your money. Elway wanted to spend it on defense and has pretty much ignored the offense in FA outside of signing WRs Sanders and Welker.

You are also not going to be able to find a starting pro-bowl LT in FA any more than you can a pro-bowl QB because teams lock them up. But a pro-bowl G, C or RT? Yes.

The time to have done that was 2012 though, when Peyton had 4 more years to play instead of 1.

The SB should have been a wake-up call that the biggest problem with the team was NOT on Defense!

For instance, TJ Ward is a nice player, but he's hardly been essential. They went out and signed him after the SB in 2014 to a big $22.5 M free agent contract, and totally ignored RT.

And their conclusion was that they could move journeyman backup T Chris Clark out to RT. When that didn't work at all, they tried Michael Schofield. When that was horrible, they tried moving G Louis Vasquez out to RT. That created TWO gaping holes on the OL and doomed the 2014 team in the playoffs.

This off-season after losing Franklin and Clady, their solution was to move 3 or 4 guys who've never started an NFL game into the starting lineup (4 if you realize that the "Plan A" was to start Max Garcia and Michael Schofield - who John Elway kept insisting had promise). Then during the pre-season the obvious became clear. Schofield can't play dead in a western, while the rookies played like rookies, so to meet the emergency situation, they rushed out and got Mathis and Ryan Harris in July).

Then because of all these changes, their starting OL had never played together before Game 1 of the regular season, and was horrible.

Are we seeing a pattern yet? Rookies and retreads is not how you win a SB.

And it's worse when you consider they didn't need this offense to be great. They just need the OL to play well enough to give Peyton some time to throw the ball and run the ball effectively when they need to.

[underrated29]

Its coming together. There is only one team right now who has abetter record than us and that is the pats. Let see what happens.

[NightTerror218]

After Peyton; pro bowl Vasquez was signed to go along with pro bowl Clady. We had invested in Franklin and beadles.

Peyton Manning was intended to a win SB within first couple years. We are in yr 4 and could not afford Franklin, Beadles was let walk after contract and C has had vet and vet inserted until now.

Team invested 3 picks into OL in 2nd day of draft in last come years. So it is time they stepped up.

Elway just brought in pro bowl mathis. How many big ticket signings can one team do in FA when they are really near the cap? Not much.

How is offense ignored. DT was locked up, Sanders was brought in. JT wanted more money so he did not sign original offer.

[NightTerror218]

Its coming together. There is only one team right now who has abetter record than us and that is the pats. Let see what happens.

OL is getting better leaps and bounds in comparison to week 1. Just imagine if our 2 starting OG returned to form the line will get another leap forward leaving the OT to learn how to be in NFL (Ty and Schofield).

[Cugel]

After Peyton; pro bowl Vasquez was signed to go along with pro bowl Clady. We had invested in Franklin and beadles.

Peyton Manning was intended to a win SB within first couple years. We are in yr 4 and could not afford Franklin, Beadles was let walk after contract and C has had vet and vet inserted until now.

Team invested 3 picks into OL in 2nd day of draft in last come years. So it is time they stepped up.

Elway just brought in pro bowl mathis. How many big ticket signings can one team do in FA when they are really near the cap? Not much.

How is offense ignored. DT was locked up, Sanders was brought in. JT wanted more money so he did not sign original offer.

Alright, here's the draft history for OL in the Elway era:

2015:
Ty Sambrailo, #59 2nd round
Max Garcia, #139 4th round

2014:
Michael Schofield, #95 3rd round

2013:
Vinson Painter, #173 6th round

2012:
Phillip Blake, #108 4th round

2011:
Orlando Franklin, #46 second round.

Blake and Painter were immediate busts. Schofield is a bust. Franklin walked in FA. So, for 3 years the draft provided ZERO help for the OL and the one guy who made it left the team the minute his contract expired (they didn't want him back).

That in a nut-shell is why they have a problem today. Because there are no players from those 4 drafts at all manning positions on the OL!

[BroncoJoe]

BFD on a 6th round pick. Blake hurts a bit more, but in the 4th, not critical. Schofield is a bust? I believe he is starting. Sambrailo is going to be a very good to great tackle on the left or right. Franklin signed a 5 year, $36.5 million contract with San Diego. Sorry, but he's not worth that much.

You've lost your mind. Not sure you had one to lose though...

[Ravage!!!]

I think franklin is worth 6 million a year, especially since the contracts aren't guaranteed.

But it seems Cugal isn't counting, or is callig players a bust long before they are a bust.

[BroncoJoe]

I think franklin is worth 6 million a year, especially since the contracts aren't guaranteed.

But it seems Cugal isn't counting, or is callig players a bust long before they are a bust.

I don't think he's worth this kind of cap hit:


Orlando Franklin signed a 5 year, $36,500,000 contract with the San Diego Chargers, including a $8,000,000 signing bonus, $16,500,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $7,300,000. In 2015, Franklin will earn a base salary of $3,000,000 and a signing bonus of $8,000,000. Franklin has a cap hit of $4,600,000 while his dead money value is $16,500,000.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-diego-chargers/orlando-franklin/

Following years his cap hit will be (in millions) $7.1 / $7.6 / $8.350 / $8.850

[NightTerror218]

BFD on a 6th round pick. Blake hurts a bit more, but in the 4th, not critical. Schofield is a bust? I believe he is starting. Sambrailo is going to be a very good to great tackle on the left or right. Franklin signed a 5 year, $36.5 million contract with San Diego. Sorry, but he's not worth that much.

You've lost your mind. Not sure you had one to lose though...

Schofield is not a bust you can't call a 2nd yr player who never saw a snap his first year a bust. And he was obviously not that bad when Clark was traded away. Schofield has been part of the plan, they really liked what he did in camp.

Problem with OL is its youth. Intended was to have Clady and Vasquez provide vet leadership and solidify the line. That plan went to hell when Clady went down. I would have loved to seen a clady-mathis left side and a vasquez- Schofield right side.

[Simple Jaded]

Joel........

Either trade Sly, Ray, or Roby for an OL. No much harder to hit on OL then talent that falls to you like these guys.

2013 there was a run on OL in round 1 and Sly dropped to us. Who would you rather have taken. The next drafted OL was Frederick the current C for cowboys.

2014 instead of Roby was considered one of the top CB and fell due to personality concwrns, who would you take? Of of the next OL drafted the only one that has stood out is Bitiono from what I have seen.

2015 Ray who was considered a top 10 talent fell to us. Who would you have taken?

Go back further 2012, we got Wolfe. Who would you have drafted. Mitchell Swartz. Jonathan Martin? Cordy Glenn? These were the next OL drafted.

I did want them to get Cordy Glenn, tho, still do.

[Simple Jaded]

What the posters who criticize your position are missing is that there is an expected draft round and position for where you expect to take OL. A guy who projects to be a great starting LT prospect is a top 15 pick, and maybe a top 10. If you don't draft him at that spot, some other team will take him ahead of you before you get the chance.

A guy who projects to be a good starting RT but is not mobile enough or have quick enough feet to project to be a starting LT maybe late 1st or early 2nd round if he's a top prospect.

A guy who falls to the 3rd or 4th round or later is simply not graded as a top OL prospect. There were 5 Ts taken in the 1st and 4 in the second, and Sambrailo was the last one drafted.

Sambrailo fell to the later 2nd round because he's not as big or strong as some guys taken higher, so he didn't grade out as a top LT prospect for most teams, and because he came from CSU which is a 2nd tier school playing in the Mountain West instead of the SEC. He's a good fit for a ZBS too because while he might not be a big mauler, he's got quick feet and he's intelligent.

He wasn't ever going to be a RT though. The plan was to get him some experience this season behind Ryan Clady, and then start him next season and dump Clady's $10 M contract. Clady's injury forced them to start him immediately, with unfortunate results.

Seriously, stop pretending you know what "the plan was" .

One thing we do know, because they've said as much, that they look for starting ZBS OL later in the draft, so your "expected draft round, burp, fart" combines with "the plan was" to make a massive bullshit sandwich post.

[Simple Jaded]

Alright, here's the draft history for OL in the Elway era:

2015:
Ty Sambrailo, #59 2nd round
Max Garcia, #139 4th round

2014:
Michael Schofield, #95 3rd round

2013:
Vinson Painter, #173 6th round

2012:
Phillip Blake, #108 4th round

2011:
Orlando Franklin, #46 second round.

Blake and Painter were immediate busts. Schofield is a bust. Franklin walked in FA. So, for 3 years the draft provided ZERO help for the OL and the one guy who made it left the team the minute his contract expired (they didn't want him back).

That in a nut-shell is why they have a problem today. Because there are no players from those 4 drafts at all manning positions on the OL!
Schoefield, Sambrailo and Paradis are starters, Garcia will be too (that's "the plan" anyway).

[NightTerror218]

Schoefield, Sambrailo and Paradis are starters, Garcia will be too (that's "the plan" anyway).

If any player has improved the most on OL from live play in real games it is schofield so far. Coaches were impressed enough to trade clark.

[Yashahla17]

Alright, here's the draft history for OL in the Elway era:

2015:
Ty Sambrailo, #59 2nd round
Max Garcia, #139 4th round

2014:
Michael Schofield, #95 3rd round

2013:
Vinson Painter, #173 6th round

2012:
Phillip Blake, #108 4th round

2011:
Orlando Franklin, #46 second round.

Blake and Painter were immediate busts. Schofield is a bust. Franklin walked in FA. So, for 3 years the draft provided ZERO help for the OL and the one guy who made it left the team the minute his contract expired (they didn't want him back).

That in a nut-shell is why they have a problem today. Because there are no players from those 4 drafts at all manning positions on the OL!

Lol @schofield is a bust. Dude has played good football in his last couple starts. It's amazing how ignorant your willing to look to lay blame on everyone but manning. I dont think i can even reply to you and joel anymore. You guys are the ultimate peyton manning lovers.

[Yashahla17]

I think franklin is worth 6 million a year, especially since the contracts aren't guaranteed.

But it seems Cugal isn't counting, or is callig players a bust long before they are a bust.

We should have definitely paid franklin, but whats done is done. Hopefully schofield continues to improve like he's been doing. It just would have been nice to have sambrello, franklin, garcia, vasquez, schofield all together. I think thats a good oline to move forward with. But I think well be in good,hands going forward

[Yashahla17]

Schoefield, Sambrailo and Paradis are starters, Garcia will be too (that's "the plan" anyway).

Garcia and sambrello will be studs

[Valar Morghulis]

Considering what he got paid, I am glad Franklin is gone. The dude was always causing pre snap penalties.

[7DnBrnc53]

Considering what he got paid, I am glad Franklin is gone. The dude was always causing pre snap penalties.

They could have had Kyle Rudolph and Stefen Wisniewski in Round 2 in 2011 instead of Franklin and Rahim Moore (I thought that Denver would take Rudolph that year). Then, the Broncos could have had DeMarco Murray over Nate Irving, and they should have taken Cordy Glenn in Round 2 a year later over Derek Wolfe (who could have been had in Round 3).

Imagine an opening-day line in 2012 of Clady-Beadles-Wiz-Kuper-Glenn. That's pretty good.

[Yashahla17]

They could have had Kyle Rudolph and Stefen Wisniewski in Round 2 in 2011 instead of Franklin and Rahim Moore (I thought that Denver would take Rudolph that year). Then, the Broncos could have had DeMarco Murray over Nate Irving, and they should have taken Cordy Glenn in Round 2 a year later over Derek Wolfe (who could have been had in Round 3).

Imagine an opening-day line in 2012 of Clady-Beadles-Wiz-Kuper-Glenn. That's pretty good.

Woulda coulda should have means nothing. Its way too easy to go back after guys have developed or busted or moved on and say every team could have had this and that.

[7DnBrnc53]

Woulda coulda should have means nothing. Its way too easy to go back after guys have developed or busted or moved on and say every team could have had this and that.

Thanks for sharing.

[spikerman]

It's amazing how ignorant your willing to look to lay blame on everyone but manning. I dont think i can even reply to you and joel anymore. You guys are the ultimate peyton manning lovers. This post is comedy gold, but I'm going to guess that you don't understand why.

[Joel]

This post is comedy gold, but I'm going to guess that you don't understand why.


You can tell what kind of football fans the guys at the end of the bar are by what they're arguing about.

Casual fans ("I always go to at least one game a year if my cousin gets me a ticket.") argue about teams.

Involved fans ("I never miss a game on TV if my mother-in-law doesn't come over.") argue about QBs.

Rabid-but-unsophisticated fans ("When do the Dolphins play Notre Dame?") argue about RBs.

Literate fans ("Pro football is really a metaphor for the human condition.") discuss WRs.

Beer drinkers debate defense. At the tops of their lungs. Watch out; they tend to gesticulate a lot.

But if you ever hear two guys outshouting aech other about the best blocking linemen, you can bet your autographed copy of Instant Replay that you're listening to a couple of Pat-Dyed-in-the-wool, down-in-the-Dirt-Winston, do-or-die-for-dear-Joe-Rutgens football fans. That, of course, is irrespective of the fact neither of them knows what the hell he's talking about.

The Hidden Game of Football, Chapter 13 "Opus for the Unsung"

I'm continually amazed how uncannily reliable this remains after 30 years. Except the part where Yoshi's presumed old enough to enter a bar, much less has a mother-in-law. :tongue:

[Yashahla17]

This post is comedy gold, but I'm going to guess that you don't understand why.

Please explain

[spikerman]

Please explain

I think it would lose something if I did. I'll let the board decide.

[Yashahla17]

I think it would lose something if I did. I'll let the board decide.

Say what

[slim]

Hi Spiker!

We're gonna pack some packer fudge tonight!

[spikerman]

Hi Spiker!

We're gonna pack some packer fudge tonight!
I hope so!

[spikerman]

Say what

I will let the board decide if I should explain it or if it's obvious enough to the rest of us.

[Yashahla17]

I get it

[TimHippo]

Say what

Yashi! Where you at? Broncos 29 Packers 10

[Yashahla17]

Must have been our teams cone drills that won the game tonight man.