View Full Version : Brian Billick Article: "Peyton Manning, Broncos liability? Not so fast, Denver Doubters"
Cugel
10-22-2015, 07:25 PM
Former Ravens Super Bowl winning head coach Brian Billick wrote this brilliant article about Peyton and the Broncos offense for NFL.com. All of it is great and well worth a read, but this part stood out:
"Manning certainly did not get dumber in the offseason (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000562264/article/peyton-manning-broncos-liability-not-so-fast-denver-doubters). He has the greatest recall and institutional knowledge of any quarterback in the history of the game. But often, with Kubiak's more structured offense, he is not being put in position to maximize his unparalleled football IQ. And that's gotten him out of his rhythm in some games. Like the ageing Tiger Woods, Manning still has most of his strength; what he's lost is his touch, his rhythm and, perhaps, a bit of the old confidence.
One of the reasons for the trouble, of course, is the Broncos' lackluster ground game. Back in '97 and '98, when Elway was snagging Lombardi Trophies, Denver's running game was among the best in the league, with Terrell Davis running behind a line steeped in Alex Gibbs' zone-blocking system. Kubiak learned the system from Broncos coach Mike Shanahan, and brought it with him to Houston, where he assembled a potent rushing attack. Even last year in Baltimore, as the offensive coordinator, Kubiak helped transform journeyman Justin Forsett into the league's fifth-leading rusher, and the Ravens ranked third in rushes of 10-plus yards. This year's Broncos rank 30th in the run and 29th in rushes of 10-plus yards.
To find the source of that, you need to look no further than the offensive line. Ryan Clady's second season-ending injury in three years -- a torn ACL he suffered in May -- robbed the line of its one blue-chip anchor. Consequently, the Broncos have been forced to piece together a group that doesn't include a single first-rounder. The zone-blocking system places a high priority on athleticism. But all too often with these Broncos, the back side of the line fails to get the cut blocks or second-level hits required to spring big plays. And in the passing game, Manning is on pace to be sacked 32 times, which would be the most in his 18-year career. [Billick in an interview on ESPN Radio expanded on just what he means here: In the ZBS it's crucially important for the back-side linemen cut the defenders so they can't just run wild down the LOS and "earhole" the running back before he can get into that cut-back. Denver's OL back in the Super Bowl years used to be great at that, but this years' OL is failing to get the cut blocks and is not getting to the second level in the run game, so the back-side defenders are all too often just running down behind the play and tackling the RB from behind.]
"Another general issue for this offense is the lack of production at the tight end position. You knew losing Julius Thomas to free agency was going to hurt the Broncos. They signed Owen Daniels, who had played for Kubiak in both Houston and Baltimore. He was a two-time Pro Bowler with the Texans, and logged 48 receptions in 13 starts for the Ravens last season. This year? Fourteen receptions in six starts. For a point of reference: Last year, Manning's tight ends caught 85 passes.
"One of the hardest things to do in the NFL is separate how a quarterback is playing -- good or bad -- from what is going on around him. For all the speculation about what is wrong with Peyton, many of the issues could stem from the fact that the talent and scheme surrounding him just isn't as good as it's been in the past.
"If the running game doesn't turn around soon, Kubiak probably will have to give a little ground and let Peyton run an offense that's more suited to his strengths. If and when that happens, you have to like the Broncos' chances. They are 6-0, they have a dominant defense and a Hall of Fame quarterback who can generate key drives and winning points when he needs to.
"Don't give up on Peyton Manning just yet. As the Toby Keith song says, "I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was."
Follow Brian Billick on Twitter @coachbillick.
There's a lot more to this article. Easily the best article I've seen on Peyton and the Broncos this season. Totally worth a read. I used to hate Brian Billick when he was coaching the Ravens, but that was because he was such a great head coach and the Broncos could never seem to beat his Ravens team.
Brian Billick assessing offensive stars makes about as much sense as Mike Shanahan assessing defensive ones, but he makes good points here. I stumbled across an ESPN article ranking the most injured teams by total starts missed (we're tied for 10th, btw) and it's note on us (written by Legwold) had an interesting note:
Tackle Ty Sambrailo (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/2514397/ty-sambrailo) is the only Broncos offensive lineman to miss a game with an injury, but several others have been held out of practice. In fact, over the past three weeks, the O-line that started each game practiced together just two times total. The lack of cohesion has spilled over to the field, where QB Peyton Manning (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/1428/peyton-manning) has been sacked 12 times in the team's first six games, and the team's running backs have rushed for no gain or negative yardage on 23.5 percent of their carries. In other words, Denver's bye came at a very good time. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/32for32x151021/ranking-most-banged-nfl-teams-1-32
That reinforces what some had already noted: That a line still gaining familiarity with the playbook and each other has been further disrupted by a spate of starter injuries culminating in Polumbus playing 2 games less than a month after joining the team and Garcia getting his first NFL snaps. At this point, it's fair to ask which linemen will have the most rapport with each other after the bye, but, even though we're nearly halfway through the season, almost NONE of them have much understanding of and coordination with ANY of the rest.
Vasquez, Paradis and Mathis likely have the most, which may partly explain why our interior's been so much better than our tackles the last few games. Still a hard row to hoe, though, with a tough month-and-a-half beginning next week: GB, @Indy, KC, @Chicago, N* and @SD. After that, 3 of our last 4 are at home, but Cincy is one and the exception's Pitt; we're officially out of tune up games: 6 of our last 10 are at home, but 5 of our last 10 opponents are probable playoff teams (7 if what SD has on paper starts translating to the field.)
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 12:30 AM
Lol oh okay because billick said so manning must not be finished. Realist are going to just not believe the last 12 games of poor play dating back to last year. Even when he was in training camp throwing 2 ints a day not facing love bullets was all fluke. Peyton manning and the excuses are laughable but when you see who made the thread you get it.
TimHippo
10-23-2015, 01:10 AM
Lol oh okay because billick said so manning must not be finished. Realist are going to just not believe the last 12 games of poor play dating back to last year. Even when he was in training camp throwing 2 ints a day not facing love bullets was all fluke. Peyton manning and the excuses are laughable but when you see who made the thread you get it.
No, no, no, Yashi. This is a great thread.
http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/dikembe-mutombo-finger-wag.jpg
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 02:53 AM
Why does everybody have to remix my name
Dapper Dan
10-23-2015, 04:10 AM
Have you tried anti freeze in your morning coffee? It'll keep you warm for the winter. Try it.
olathebroncofan
10-23-2015, 08:13 AM
Lol oh okay because billick said so manning must not be finished. Realist are going to just not believe the last 12 games of poor play dating back to last year. Even when he was in training camp throwing 2 ints a day not facing love bullets was all fluke. Peyton manning and the excuses are laughable but when you see who made the thread you get it.
U Mad Yoshi? I get being down on Manning for tons of reasons. But it's almost like you have something personal against him.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-23-2015, 08:38 AM
Why does everybody have to remix my name
I prefer yashablabalotaboutmanning. :D
Ravage!!!
10-23-2015, 09:21 AM
U Mad Yoshi? I get being down on Manning for tons of reasons. But it's almost like you have something personal against him.
Exactly. He does. He uses snide insults against Manning a lot. He definitely has an agenda behind his posts...and its n ot the 'love' for the broncos.
Ravage!!!
10-23-2015, 09:23 AM
Yes.... the lack of TE is really really really hurting this team.
Slick
10-23-2015, 11:41 AM
Billick must read Broncos Forums. Nothing he said hasn't already been said here in the last month.
NightTrainLayne
10-23-2015, 12:16 PM
Brian Billick assessing offensive stars makes about as much sense as Mike Shanahan assessing defensive ones, but he makes good points here.
I'm nit-picking here since you seem to agree with his assessment, but this sentence makes no sense. Brian Billick is an offensive minded coach just as Shanahan. He was the Offensive Coordinator for the 1998 Vikings who set the league record for scoring at the time, out-scoring our own beloved Broncos that season, in which we won the SuperBowl, and scored buckets of points.
TXBRONC
10-23-2015, 12:21 PM
I'm nit-picking here since you seem to agree with his assessment, but this sentence makes no sense. Brian Billick is an offensive minded coach just as Shanahan. He was the Offensive Coordinator for the 1998 Vikings who set the league record for scoring at the time, out-scoring our own beloved Broncos that season, in which we won the SuperBowl, and scored buckets of points.
I found that a bit odd he would say that considering Billick's background.
I'm nit-picking here since you seem to agree with his assessment, but this sentence makes no sense. Brian Billick is an offensive minded coach just as Shanahan. He was the Offensive Coordinator for the 1998 Vikings who set the league record for scoring at the time, out-scoring our own beloved Broncos that season, in which we won the SuperBowl, and scored buckets of points.
Fair nit-pick then, 'cause I didn't know that: I've always associated him with the Ravens whose D was so elite it won a SB with Trent Dilfer leading the offense. So Billick actually has a lot of credibility then, so, in turn, when he says everything that's "already been said here in the last month" maybe those comments of the past month merit some attention. ;)
BroncoJoe
10-23-2015, 12:28 PM
I'm nit-picking here since you seem to agree with his assessment, but this sentence makes no sense. Brian Billick is an offensive minded coach just as Shanahan. He was the Offensive Coordinator for the 1998 Vikings who set the league record for scoring at the time, out-scoring our own beloved Broncos that season, in which we won the SuperBowl, and scored buckets of points.
Most people, well the uneducated ones at least, think of Billick as a defensive coach because of how good his teams were on the defensive side of the ball. You are correct - Billick was (is?) definitely an offensive minded coach.
Ravage!!!
10-23-2015, 12:59 PM
at the same time, what offensive players did Billick draft that were any good?
NightTrainLayne
10-23-2015, 01:00 PM
at the same time, what offensive players did Billick draft that were any good?
When did Ozzie Newsome become the GM of the Ravens?
Ravage!!!
10-23-2015, 01:02 PM
When did Ozzie Newsome become the GM of the Ravens?
2002. But generally speaking, the HC has some input on players being drafted. WHich then goes to the arguement, (discussion) on how well Billick can "asses" offensive talent.
Cugel
10-23-2015, 02:05 PM
Lol oh okay because billick said so manning must not be finished. Realist are going to just not believe the last 12 games of poor play dating back to last year. Even when he was in training camp throwing 2 ints a day not facing love bullets was all fluke. Peyton manning and the excuses are laughable but when you see who made the thread you get it.
Well, you convinced me here! You're a total genius and noob like Brian Billick must just bow to your awesome football knowledge! :laugh:
Cugel
10-23-2015, 02:11 PM
"Billick was also notable for being the offensive coordinator for the Minnesota Vikings (1994–1998) when they broke the then scoring record in the 1998 season."
He got his head coaching job with the Ravens because he was so good as an Offensive Coordinator. So, after being a football coach for 30 years, a head coach for 9 seasons and winning a Super Bowl, he's not qualified to look at all the game film and make an informed comment about Peyton Manning, because it interferes with some imbecile fans' entrenched narrative "Peyton's washed up?!" " :rolleyes:
He could easily have gotten another head coaching job in the NFL too, but he decided he preferred to relax and get a job on NFL.com as a commenter. He's widely regarded as among the best analysts in the game. But, of course, not as good an analyst as Yashahla17 - that goes without saying.
Northman
10-23-2015, 02:41 PM
If people take someone else's comments on this board too seriously than they have bigger problems than i thought. lmao
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-23-2015, 03:14 PM
at the same time, what offensive players did Billick draft that were any good?
Ogden and Jamaal Williams?
Northman
10-23-2015, 03:49 PM
Ogden and Jamaal Williams?
I think you mean Jamal Lewis.
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 03:55 PM
U Mad Yoshi? I get being down on Manning for tons of reasons. But it's almost like you have something personal against him.
I take it personal when you make 20 million and you do nothing for the squad. Let alone begin to stink as the worst qb in the nfl.
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 03:56 PM
Exactly. He does. He uses snide insults against Manning a lot. He definitely has an agenda behind his posts...and its n ot the 'love' for the broncos.
Its pure love for the broncos
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 03:57 PM
Well, you convinced me here! You're a total genius and noob like Brian Billick must just bow to your awesome football knowledge! :laugh:
Brian billick drafted kyle boller and thought he was a stud
Ravage!!!
10-23-2015, 04:01 PM
Brian billick drafted kyle boller and thought he was a stud
Do you know Billick? Are you sure he thought he was a stud, or is that just more of your injecting what you think someone else thinks?
BroncoJoe
10-23-2015, 04:25 PM
Yoshi - you are just WAY overboard at this point. Relax a bit. I'm as hard on Manning as anyone else, and am dying to see what Brock has to offer, but our best option - at this point - is Manning.
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 04:30 PM
I refuse to believe manning is the best option. How could our best option be the worst qb in the entire nfl. Behind rookies behind Mccown etc? The real fact is this is what we are forced to deal with until the coach grows some cahunas and makes the call. Or the cart rolls out. If others stop trying to prove manning isn't garbage I'll stop calling him garbage.
Northman
10-23-2015, 04:34 PM
I refuse to believe manning is the best option. How could our best option be the worst qb in the entire nfl. Behind rookies behind Mccown etc? The real fact is this is what we are forced to deal with until the coach grows some cahunas and makes the call. Or the cart rolls out. If others stop trying to prove manning isn't garbage I'll stop calling him garbage.
Despite how poorly he has played there are some other issues on the team that have contributed to the offensive problems. Those just cant be ignored either, if we were losing games i would be all in for having Brock start but despite Manning's struggles we are still winning so to mess with that right now would be a bad idea.
BroncoJoe
10-23-2015, 04:36 PM
Despite how poorly he has played there are some other issues on the team that have contributed to the offensive problems. Those just cant be ignored either, if we were losing games i would be all in for having Brock start but despite Manning's struggles we are still winning so to mess with that right now would be a bad idea.
6-0. It would be stupid to pull Manning at this point. And I'm one of those guys who is very critical of his play this year, and wished he would have retired.
BroncoWave
10-23-2015, 05:44 PM
6-0. It would be stupid to pull Manning at this point. And I'm one of those guys who is very critical of his play this year, and wished he would have retired.
Same. It's pretty clear after this week that the team is still fully behind Manning. Benching him would torpedo that locker room. This should be even more abundantly clear after reading that Sundquist/Cutler article. The locker room is just not gonna get behind the young guy the same way they do the established veteran. Especially when they are undefeated this season with the established veteran.
Canmore
10-23-2015, 05:47 PM
I take it personal when you make 20 million and you do nothing for the squad. Let alone begin to stink as the worst qb in the nfl.
Get your facts right. Manning doesn't make 20 million.
olathebroncofan
10-23-2015, 05:56 PM
U Mad Yoshi? I get being down on Manning for tons of reasons. But it's almost like you have something personal against him.
I take it personal when you make 20 million and you do nothing for the squad. Let alone begin to stink as the worst qb in the nfl.
Manning makes 16mil or something like that. I get your point. The problem is that you come off like Joel with anger management and daddy issues. You would be surprised how many people agree with you on some of your points. Dude just tone it down some. Relax, and enjoy the bench manning/free Tebow/we love **** err Brock posts.
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 08:31 PM
Get your facts right. Manning doesn't make 20 million.
Doesn't matter he makes elite qb money
Doesn't matter he makes elite qb money
Guess why.
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 08:33 PM
Manning makes 16mil or something like that. I get your point. The problem is that you come off like Joel with anger management and daddy issues. You would be surprised how many people agree with you on some of your points. Dude just tone it down some. Relax, and enjoy the bench manning/free Tebow/we love **** err Brock posts.
I am very toned down though. Im chilling.
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 08:37 PM
Guess why.
Poor gm decision. If manning didnt make so much we'd probably still have our pro bowler orlando franklin. But oh well. Heres to max garcia and schofield being the real deal..
Poor gm decision. If manning didnt make so much we'd probably still have our pro bowler orlando franklin. But oh well. Heres to max garcia and schofield being the real deal..
Our WHAT Orlando Franklin?! You realize Madden Pro Bowl selections aren't real, right? But the point's fair; without Manning gobbling up all that elite QB money we might still have our Pro Bowler Zane Beadles. Funny how Beadles never even sniffed a Pro Bowl before we got Manning though....
Poor gm decision. If manning didnt make so much we'd probably still have our pro bowler orlando franklin. But oh well. Heres to max garcia and schofield being the real deal..
You're a goon. The reason why is he is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history and deserves to be paid accordingly. His bad season is about 75% out of his control and 25% his own doing. Peyton at 75% is still better than anyone not named Rodgers, Brady, Big Ben, etc., and is probably still better at the cerebral side off football than anyone.
You must realize, at some point, you're one of the most football ignorant people on this message board. I have yet to see you post anything other than emo garbage. You've got no stats, no knowledge or anything else football smarts wise.
Grow up, learn how to type and formulate a logical argument, then come back.
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 09:59 PM
Theres 31 qbs ranked ahead of manning. All 31 must have the most perfect situations going on around them huh? Poor manning hes the only qb in the entire league that has everyone around him causing him to play poorly. Awww.
Simple Jaded
10-23-2015, 10:01 PM
Y'all act like being the 32nd ranked QB is so bad.
Yashahla17
10-23-2015, 10:06 PM
Every qb ranking you look up manning is ranked 25 or worse.. Im not going to copy and paste link after link. Im not the only logical person who sees his poor play. Nobody else is making excuses for,him like some broncos fans. They rank him 25-32 and thats just that. 7tds 10ints and 4 pick sixes in 6 games is the only stats i need to post. You cant change that so you make excuses as to why its everybody else fault lol. It's comical.
BroncoWave
10-23-2015, 10:13 PM
Theres 31 qbs ranked ahead of manning. All 31 must have the most perfect situations going on around them huh? Poor manning hes the only qb in the entire league that has everyone around him causing him to play poorly. Awww.
Set your computer on fire then jump off a bridge.
Simple Jaded
10-23-2015, 10:15 PM
The Broncos set Manning up to fail cause Elway is jelly, their play calling sucks and the receivers are garbage.
Manning just wins.
Haters gonna hate.
TimHippo
10-24-2015, 12:34 AM
Every qb ranking you look up manning is ranked 25 or worse.. Im not going to copy and paste link after link. Im not the only logical person who sees his poor play. Nobody else is making excuses for,him like some broncos fans. They rank him 25-32 and thats just that. 7tds 10ints and 4 pick sixes in 6 games is the only stats i need to post. You cant change that so you make excuses as to why its everybody else fault lol. It's comical.
Yashi!!!!
"Manning, I hate youuuuuuuuuuuuu!"
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/fegelcineplexs/images/0/08/Shot0007.png/revision/latest?cb=20121103112717
Theres 31 qbs ranked ahead of manning. All 31 must have the most perfect situations going on around them huh? Poor manning hes the only qb in the entire league that has everyone around him causing him to play poorly. Awww.
Again. You're a goon.
Every qb ranking you look up manning is ranked 25 or worse.. Im not going to copy and paste link after link. Im not the only logical person who sees his poor play. Nobody else is making excuses for,him like some broncos fans. They rank him 25-32 and thats just that. 7tds 10ints and 4 pick sixes in 6 games is the only stats i need to post. You cant change that so you make excuses as to why its everybody else fault lol. It's comical.
I have yet to see a single person here give Manning a free pass or excuse the fact he's playing poorly. We ALL see it.
Here's the difference between us football people and you not football person; we don't look at Manning's stats and take it at face value. We analyze WHY it's happening, not just WHAT it is. I'm sure even a person like you has heard the phrase "everything happens for a reason". Manning didn't just wake up this preseason and decide he's gonna suck. I wouldn't expect you to know anything about that though.
Set your computer on fire then jump off a bridge.
And scream like high-voice Peyton Manning on the way down.
Valar Morghulis
10-24-2015, 10:04 AM
Again. You're a goon.
I realise how hypocritical I am.
I usually hate direct put downs like this, but in this case, I am pleased how acerbic you are!
Maybe yashoo is not a troll, and maybe he does deserve better - but I doubt it.
I realise how hypocritical I am. I usually hate direct put downs like this, but in this case, I am pleased how acerbic you are! Maybe yashoo is not a troll, and maybe he does deserve better - but I doubt it.
I don't really like to call people names but if the shoe fits...
Ravage!!!
10-24-2015, 10:34 AM
I don't really like to call people names but if the shoe fits...
call them Cinderella and take them to the ball??
call them Cinderella and take them to the ball??
Sure
MNPatsFan
10-24-2015, 11:34 AM
Do you know Billick? Are you sure he thought he was a stud, or is that just more of your injecting what you think someone else thinks?I would offer that trading up in the first round to draft Boller while providing the Patriots the picks to draft Vince Wilfork, Eugene Wilson and Dan Klecko would strongly indicate that Billick thought or believed that Boller was a stud.
Ravage!!!
10-24-2015, 11:36 AM
I would offer that trading up in the first round to draft Boller while providing the Patriots the picks to draft Vince Wilfork, Eugene Wilson and Dan Klecko would strongly indicate that Billick thought or believed that Boller was a stud.
Yeah.. I get that. Or they were in a position in which they just NEEDED to go after a QB. Sometimes a coach HAS to do something because of the position they are in with their team, fans, and Owner.
I mean.... McDoosh must have thought Tebow was a stud. So I get the point.
MNPatsFan
10-24-2015, 11:45 AM
You're a goon. The reason why is he is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history and deserves to be paid accordingly.There is no denying that P. Manning is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history, but the objective evidence from pretty much every sport, but especially football, establishes that a team should NEVER pay a player for PAST performance.
His bad season is about 75% out of his control and 25% his own doing.Unlike you, I haven't watched the entirety of each and every Broncos games, but based on the portions of the Broncos games I have seen Peyton bears a greater portion of responsibility and/or fault for his poor play so far this season.
MNPatsFan
10-24-2015, 11:47 AM
Yeah.. I get that. Or they were in a position in which they just NEEDED to go after a QB. Sometimes a coach HAS to do something because of the position they are in with their team, fans, and Owner.Unfortunately, forcing a pick to fill a position of need almost never works.
I mean.... McDoosh must have thought Tebow was a stud. So I get the point.Can't deny that. I never understood why he made that decision and move.
There is no denying that P. Manning is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history, but the objective evidence from pretty much every sport, but especially football, establishes that a team should NEVER pay a player for PAST performance. Unlike you, I haven't watched the entirety of each and every Broncos games, but based on the portions of the Broncos games I have seen Peyton bears a greater portion of responsibility and/or fault for his poor play so far this season.
He wasn't being paid for past performance and his stats with the Broncos prior to this year will back that up. He made $20M the year he broke just about every single season passing record in the books. Even his performance last season was reason enough to pay him the $16M he's getting this year.
You're also a *Patriots fan with a bias opinion so I'll take it with a grain of salt.
Yashahla17
10-24-2015, 01:30 PM
You're a goon. The reason why is he is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history and deserves to be paid accordingly. His bad season is about 75% out of his control and 25% his own doing. Peyton at 75% is still better than anyone not named Rodgers, Brady, Big Ben, etc., and is probably still better at the cerebral side off football than anyone.
You must realize, at some point, you're one of the most football ignorant people on this message board. I have yet to see you post anything other than emo garbage. You've got no stats, no knowledge or anything else football smarts wise.
Grow up, learn how to type and formulate a logical argument, then come back.
So ima thug now huh? And you say somebody else is ignorant and needs to grow up lol. Heres the stats. 7tds 10 ints 4 pick sixes. Manning is giving the opposition more points than the defense is giving up with his ints and pick sixes. Last 4 games of last season 3tds 6 ints. So in mannings last 10 games he has 16 ints and 10 touchdowns. If thats not poor qb play then what? You want stats theres your stats boy.
Northman
10-24-2015, 01:38 PM
The somewhat hopeful good news is Peyton has had slumps like this before. In 2010 he went on a 3 game stretch where he threw 8 Td's vs 11 Ints. But then he went on to finish the year with 10 Td's vs 2 Int's. So he may be able to snap out of his funk but then again he is 5 years older than he was back then also.
Simple Jaded
10-24-2015, 02:15 PM
I would offer that trading up in the first round to draft Boller while providing the Patriots the picks to draft Vince Wilfork, Eugene Wilson and Dan Klecko would strongly indicate that Billick thought or believed that Boller was a stud.
You say this like its a good thing, Belicheat shoulda stayed where he was, drafted Booger Picker and not wasted time and money on Wilson and Klecko.
So ima thug now huh? And you say somebody else is ignorant and needs to grow up lol. Heres the stats. 7tds 10 ints 4 pick sixes. Manning is giving the opposition more points than the defense is giving up with his ints and pick sixes. Last 4 games of last season 3tds 6 ints. So in mannings last 10 games he has 16 ints and 10 touchdowns. If thats not poor qb play then what? You want stats theres your stats boy.
Never said you were a thug. And congrats on posting the same stats 72904 times since you've been here. Still doesn't change anything I said. Boy.
MNPatsFan
10-24-2015, 03:12 PM
He wasn't being paid for past performance and his stats with the Broncos prior to this year will back that up. He made $20M the year he broke just about every single season passing record in the books. Even his performance last season was reason enough to pay him the $16M he's getting this year.At the start of this contract he wasn't being paid for past performance, but he definitely now is being paid for past performance this season. The only way you or any reasonable person can argue that he isn't being paid for past performance and/or that his performance last season justifies him getting paid $16M is if the team were certain/confident that he would play this entire season the way he played the first 10-12 games last season. Unfortunately, Peyton's injury history and advancing age made that unlikely. Moreover, (and I will defer to the Broncos fans who have watched each and every Broncos game in their entirety and say/argue that Kubiak's system is hurting Peyton) the Broncos front office knew it had hired Kubiak, what his system is/was, and unless it was sure that Peyton would flourish in that system, then paying him $16M is/was a mistake (especially given how his play significantly declined during the end of last season).
You're also a *Patriots fan with a bias(ed) [sic] opinion so I'll take it with a grain of salt.Take it however you want, but I didn't realize that (1) being a Patriots fan meant I couldn't have a valid opinion or (2) stating "There is no denying that P. Manning is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history" means I have a biased opinion. I am interested to hear why or how you feel/believe I have a biased opinion when I stated "There is no denying that P. Manning is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history"?:confused:
BroncoTech
10-24-2015, 03:20 PM
I remember another Bronco quarterback, at the end of his career. It was 4th down and 7. Superbowl. He drops back, his receivers are covered as a lane opens up over the middle. He runs for it, and is hit while he's diving and helicopters around. Possibly the proudest moment of this Bronco's fan life.
So the question is; what would Peyton do, does he helicopter, or does he pull a fainting goat?
A lot of what I've seen this year resembles goat.
TXBRONC
10-24-2015, 03:20 PM
At the start of this contract he wasn't being paid for past performance, but he definitely now is being paid for past performance this season. The only way you or any reasonable person can argue that he isn't being paid for past performance and/or that his performance last season justifies him getting paid $16M is if the team were certain/confident that he would play this entire season the way he played the first 10-12 games last season. Unfortunately, Peyton's injury history and advancing age made that unlikely. Moreover, (and I will defer to the Broncos fans who have watched each and every Broncos game in their entirety and say/argue that Kubiak's system is hurting Peyton) the Broncos front office knew it had hired Kubiak, what his system is/was, and unless it was sure that Peyton would flourish in that system, then paying him $16M is/was a mistake (especially given how his play significantly declined during the end of last season).
Take it however you want, but I didn't realize that (1) being a Patriots fan meant I couldn't have a valid opinion or (2) stating "There is no denying that P. Manning is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history" means I have a biased opinion. I am interested to hear why or how you feel/believe I have a biased opinion when I stated "There is no denying that P. Manning is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history"?:confused:
I haven't known a ****Patsy fan yet that's EVER had a valid opinion on anything.
MNPatsFan
10-24-2015, 03:25 PM
You say this like its a good thing, Belicheat shoulda stayed where he was, drafted Booger Picker and not wasted time and money on Wilson and Klecko.That's because it is or was a good thing. Wilfork over Boller alone is a slam dunk victory, but Wilson and Klecko both were significant contributors to the Pats Super Bowl victories over the Panthers and Eagles
MNPatsFan
10-24-2015, 03:33 PM
I haven't known a ****Patsy fan yet that's EVER had a valid opinion on anything.I can't say that I'm surprised that you are so judgmental or that you make decisions based entirely on generalized labels or associations rather than on an individual by individual basis.
Under your analysis, OR's opinions and actions mean there are no "good" raiders fans on this forum. It must have been very interesting and difficult for you when there were "all" those Tebow supporters/Broncos fans on this forum.
Simple Jaded
10-24-2015, 03:43 PM
That's because it is or was a good thing. Wilfork over Boller alone is a slam dunk victory, but Wilson and Klecko both were significant contributors to the Pats Super Bowl victories over the Panthers and Eagles
Cheatriots didn't need Boller, stupid analogy.
The other two are good examples of how over rated Belicheat is in the draft.
At the start of this contract he wasn't being paid for past performance, but he definitely now is being paid for past performance this season. The only way you or any reasonable person can argue that he isn't being paid for past performance and/or that his performance last season justifies him getting paid $16M is if the team were certain/confident that he would play this entire season the way he played the first 10-12 games last season. Unfortunately, Peyton's injury history and advancing age made that unlikely. Moreover, (and I will defer to the Broncos fans who have watched each and every Broncos game in their entirety and say/argue that Kubiak's system is hurting Peyton) the Broncos front office knew it had hired Kubiak, what his system is/was, and unless it was sure that Peyton would flourish in that system, then paying him $16M is/was a mistake (especially given how his play significantly declined during the end of last season). Take it however you want, but I didn't realize that (1) being a Patriots fan meant I couldn't have a valid opinion or (2) stating "There is no denying that P. Manning is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history" means I have a biased opinion. I am interested to hear why or how you feel/believe I have a biased opinion when I stated "There is no denying that P. Manning is one of the greatest FOOTBALL PLAYERS in history"?:confused:
How is he being paid for past performance this season when he's in year four of a five year contract he signed in 2012? And what injury history? The one season he missed? FYI, take that season away and he's never missed an NFL game.
TXBRONC
10-24-2015, 04:13 PM
I can't say that I'm surprised that you are so judgmental or that you make decisions based entirely on generalized labels or associations rather than on an individual by individual basis.
Under your analysis, OR's opinions and actions mean there are no "good" raiders fans on this forum. It must have been very interesting and difficult for you when there were "all" those Tebow supporters/Broncos fans on this forum.
Ah OR isn't trollish like you and can actually analyze things unlike you.
Judgmental? Maybe but that doesn't make it inaccurate. :wave:
Northman
10-24-2015, 04:17 PM
Ah OR isn't trollish like you and can actually analyze things unlike you.
Judgmental? Maybe but that doesn't make it inaccurate. :wave:
OMG TX, i know you dont like this guy but you didnt just say that OR can analyze did you? Bwhahahahahahahahaha
MNPatsFan
10-24-2015, 04:27 PM
How is he being paid for past performance this season when he's in year four of a five year contract he signed in 2012? And what injury history? The one season he missed? FYI, take that season away and he's never missed an NFL game.He's being paid for past performance for the following reasons:
1. Peyton was 35/36 when he signed that 5 year contract;
2. When a 35/36 year-old player, other than a kicker, signs a 5 year contract, the team and the player know or understand that the player almost never will see the salaries in the latter years of the contract;
3. The team and the player normally restructure the contract in those latter years to significantly reduce the player's salary;
4. Peyton's play at the end of last season and this season so far clearly is not worth of a $16M salary. SF is facing the same situation with Colin Kaepernick and WA is facing the same situation with RGIII, but I am not comparing PM to those two QBs (he is significantly better).
With regard to injury history:
1. Peyton lost an entire season to his neck injury(ies);
2. He has had multiple surgeries to address his neck injury(ies);
3. His play at the end of last year allegedly significantly declined because he was injured;
4. NFL analysts and experts say that it is undisputed that Peyton is unable to make certain throws without fluttering or floating the ball due to his neck injury and loss of strength in his throwing arm and shoulder.
TXBRONC
10-24-2015, 04:30 PM
OMG TX, i know you dont like this guy but you didnt just say that OR can analyze did you? Bwhahahahahahahahaha
I was thinking DevilSpawn. OR is no better than MNDORKFAN.
MNPatsFan
10-24-2015, 04:31 PM
Ah OR isn't trollish like you and can actually analyze things unlike you.Please explain how I am being trollish in this thread or with my posts in this thread?:confused:
I didn't realize that saying that PM is one of the GOAT NFL players was trollish?
I didn't realize that saying that paying a player for past performance was trollish or that most players over the age of 35 who sign long term contracts almost never see the salaries provided for in the latter years of that contract?
MNPatsFan
10-24-2015, 04:33 PM
I was thinking DevilSpawn.DevilSpawn is a great person and poster!:beer:
Cugel
10-24-2015, 07:10 PM
I have yet to see a single person here give Manning a free pass or excuse the fact he's playing poorly. We ALL see it.
Here's the difference between us football people and you not football person; we don't look at Manning's stats and take it at face value. We analyze WHY it's happening, not just WHAT it is. I'm sure even a person like you has heard the phrase "everything happens for a reason". Manning didn't just wake up this preseason and decide he's gonna suck. I wouldn't expect you to know anything about that though.
I think arguments like this are hopeless, because some fans don't want to think.
They want to react emotionally. The result is bad. Peyton is the QB. Therefore the entire problem with the Broncos is that "Petyon sucks." And the problems could all be solved if we had a QB who "didn't suck." So, start Brock Osweiler! After all, "it's self evident!" [Actually, it's not.]
"Self-evident" [followed by a bunch of statistics shorn of any context or meaning] means I don't have to think about it. I can just yell "Peyton sucks!"
They hate analysis designed to figure out "why". "Why" is irrelevant. And they resent people who try to use reason to figure things out.
And particularly they can't stand anybody who says: "this offense is a lot worse than in the past because the OL is a hot mess, the Broncos can't run the ball at all, they have no weapons outside of Sanders and DT, they lost Julius Thomas and Wes Welker and nobody has replaced their production, the TEs can all be covered by a LB so there's no mismatches in the red zone, (Owen Daniels has 14 catches in 6 games while Julius Thomas had 9 in his first game as a Jaguar - and Virgil Green has exactly 3 receptions for the entire season). Even D.T. has been inexplicably dropping balls that hit him directly on the hands, and so did Hillman. So, most of Peyton's problems are simply due to the fact that the offense is bad this season and Denver has a worse than mediocre offensive line filled with rookies and re-treads."
That's just "making excuses for Manning." It's hopeless trying to argue with idiots. They just wear you down to their level and win through experience.
Cugel
10-24-2015, 07:18 PM
I didn't realize that (1) being a Patriots fan meant I couldn't have a valid opinion I am interested to hear why or how you feel/believe I have a biased opinion
I'll make it so simple even a Pats fan can understand it. Why the **** are you here trolling our Broncos boards? Why don't you go over to the Pats boards and talk about your inevitable Super Bowl victory, just like in 2007 and 2011?
"Why" would you be biased? Because you don't want to believe that Manning could NOT be washed up, because if he isn't, because if the Broncos can get this offense coached up to where they are even average, with this defense they pose a very serious threat to the Patriots repeat hopes, and you're a Pats fan. That's why.
Now, get lost. :coffee:
UnderArmour
10-24-2015, 07:23 PM
I'll make it so simple even a Pats fan can understand it. Why the **** are you here trolling our Broncos boards? Why don't you go over to the Pats boards and talk about your inevitable Super Bowl victory, just like in 2007 and 2011?
"Why" would you be biased? Because you don't want to believe that Manning could NOT be washed up, because if he isn't, because if the Broncos can get this offense coached up to where they are even average, with this defense they pose a very serious threat to the Patriots repeat hopes, and you're a Pats fan. That's why.
Now, get lost. :coffee:
You didn't really answer his question... You just kept piling on the initial concern he had. The fact is that any NFL observer can have a valid opinion on Manning, even Patriots fans. And the sad truth is that the guy is showing his age; Manning is playing like crap right now. Maybe a week off will help him see that this is the end of the line, and if he has ANYTHING left in the tank, he needs to let it out now. Every game might be his last game as a professional, and hopefully this week serves as reflection time for that. I just think physically, Manning has lost control of his passes. He cannot control them the way he used to because of the neck surgeries. The football IQ, desire, and knowledge are there, but the physical wear and tear coupled with numbness have made him erratic.
I also don't get this whole blind loyalty to Manning thing that some in this fanbase have. The guy has not won a ring for us. He got blown out in the Super Bowl he took us to. He's not Elway. I'm a Broncos fan through and through, but I am NOT a Manning fan through and through. I will support him as long as he has our jersey on him, but criticizing Manning does not make anyone less of a fan of the TEAM. Manning is playing like shit right now, and he is not above criticism.
Pudge
10-24-2015, 09:15 PM
So ima thug now huh? And you say somebody else is ignorant and needs to grow up lol. Heres the stats. 7tds 10 ints 4 pick sixes. Manning is giving the opposition more points than the defense is giving up with his ints and pick sixes. Last 4 games of last season 3tds 6 ints. So in mannings last 10 games he has 16 ints and 10 touchdowns. If thats not poor qb play then what? You want stats theres your stats boy.
Why aren't you banned yet? I thought the forum came to an agreeance on this. You were voted off the island
UnderArmour
10-24-2015, 09:34 PM
Why aren't you banned yet? I thought the forum came to an agreeance on this. You were voted off the island
What contribution did you make to this thread with this post? If anyone needs to be banned, it's you. Getting tired of fans blindly defending Manning and asking others to stop because you can't handle it. If Manning can't ball, he can't ball. Nothing wrong with criticizing the guy. We criticized Griese, Plummer, Cutler, Orton, and Tebow... Nothing different about Manning. I recommend you get over yourself.
What contribution did you make to this thread with this post? If anyone needs to be banned, it's you. Getting tired of fans blindly defending Manning and asking others to stop because you can't handle it. If Manning can't ball, he can't ball. Nothing wrong with criticizing the guy. We criticized Griese, Plummer, Cutler, Orton, and Tebow... Nothing different about Manning. I recommend you get over yourself.
Pudge wins.
UnderArmour
10-24-2015, 09:43 PM
Pudge wins.
Just like Manning can't feel his fingertips, I couldn't really feel your post.
Pudge
10-24-2015, 09:48 PM
What contribution did you make to this thread with this post? If anyone needs to be banned, it's you. Getting tired of fans blindly defending Manning and asking others to stop because you can't handle it. If Manning can't ball, he can't ball. Nothing wrong with criticizing the guy. We criticized Griese, Plummer, Cutler, Orton, and Tebow... Nothing different about Manning. I recommend you get over yourself.
Manning is washed up, I'm aware. He's old, but he's still better than essentially a rookie. I'm okay with the discussions but the same exact foaming at the mouth rhetoric gets old. I had no opinion if you prior to this, but now I'm firmly planted in my decision that you can gfy.
Simple Jaded
10-24-2015, 10:17 PM
Gfy is an acronym for Go **** Yourself.
Valar Morghulis
10-25-2015, 01:44 AM
#teampudge
Northman
10-25-2015, 07:35 AM
You didn't really answer his question... You just kept piling on the initial concern he had. The fact is that any NFL observer can have a valid opinion on Manning, even Patriots fans. And the sad truth is that the guy is showing his age; Manning is playing like crap right now. Maybe a week off will help him see that this is the end of the line, and if he has ANYTHING left in the tank, he needs to let it out now. Every game might be his last game as a professional, and hopefully this week serves as reflection time for that. I just think physically, Manning has lost control of his passes. He cannot control them the way he used to because of the neck surgeries. The football IQ, desire, and knowledge are there, but the physical wear and tear coupled with numbness have made him erratic.
I also don't get this whole blind loyalty to Manning thing that some in this fanbase have. The guy has not won a ring for us. He got blown out in the Super Bowl he took us to. He's not Elway. I'm a Broncos fan through and through, but I am NOT a Manning fan through and through. I will support him as long as he has our jersey on him, but criticizing Manning does not make anyone less of a fan of the TEAM. Manning is playing like shit right now, and he is not above criticism.
Boom.
Northman
10-25-2015, 07:37 AM
#teampudge
Thats part of your problem.
#teameverybody #weareallbroncofans
BroncoJoe
10-25-2015, 08:05 AM
MNPatsFan isn't a troll - he's been here a long time, and has descent takes. Of course he is going to defend his team, but his overall analysis and football acumen is pretty high compared to most.
Also, UnderArmour's post was spot on re: Manning.
Valar Morghulis
10-25-2015, 08:26 AM
Thats part of your problem. #teameverybody #weareallbroncofans
This really interests me.
There is a thing called JoHari's window.
It basically says there are sides to our personality we know about, and others we don't. Without knowing about the hidden sides, we just walk through life with a shit load of negative personality traits that remain unspoken, ergo unaddressed.
So I would be keen to learn the rest of of my problem, and an elaboration on this particular part of my problem.
Of course I will refute and dismiss what you say initially, because that's how cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias works, but I will reflect on it later!
Northman
10-25-2015, 08:28 AM
This really interests me.
There is a thing called JoHari's window.
It basically says there are sides to our personality we know about, and others we don't. Without knowing about the hidden sides, we just walk through life with a shit load of negative personality traits that remain unspoken, ergo unaddressed.
So I would be keen to learn the rest of of my problem, and an elaboration on this particular part of my problem.
Of course I will refute and dismiss what you say initially, because that's how cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias works, but I will reflect on it later!
Im glad to help you on you way to self discovery Dave.
Just like Manning can't feel his fingertips, I couldn't really feel your post.
That's ok. Manning threw 55 TD without feeling in his fingertips so that's not an excuse for him now that he's not playing well and it's convenient.
Ravage!!!
10-25-2015, 10:09 AM
MNPatsFan isn't a troll - he's been here a long time, and has descent takes. Of course he is going to defend his team, but his overall analysis and football acumen is pretty high compared to most.
Also, UnderArmour's post was spot on re: Manning.
yeah.. but he still trolls on a regular basis.
Valar Morghulis
10-25-2015, 10:40 AM
MNPatsFan isn't a troll - he's been here a long time, and has descent takes
By this logic WTE and Atty were not trolls either.
Both said things I disagreed with, but were long time posters and would also contribute to the forum in non troll posts.
Valar Morghulis
10-25-2015, 10:42 AM
Im glad to help you on you way to self discovery Dave.
Always trying to be the best possible version of myself lol
BroncoJoe
10-25-2015, 11:07 AM
By this logic WTE and Atty were not trolls either.
Both said things I disagreed with, but were long time posters and would also contribute to the forum in non troll posts.
I'm confused as to what you're trying to say...
Valar Morghulis
10-25-2015, 12:02 PM
I'm confused ...
I know you are old, it happens.
I am basically saying either WTE and MN are not trolls due to time served and contribution to the forum.
Or they are trolls, because they post nothing but blinkered patriots drivel.
aberdien
10-25-2015, 01:27 PM
Everybody is a troll in their own way #onelove
Valar Morghulis
10-25-2015, 01:47 PM
Everybody is a troll in their own way #onelove
You might look like a troll. But you don't post like one.
MNPatsFan
10-25-2015, 04:08 PM
I'll make it so simple even a Pats fan can understand it. Why the **** are you here trolling our Broncos boards? Why don't you go over to the Pats boards and talk about your inevitable Super Bowl victory, just like in 2007 and 2011?I'll make this so simple that you can understand it. As I have previously stated numerous time, (1) I have found the majority of posters on here to be intelligent posters enabling me to engage in well informed discussions on various topics, (2) I prefer being on a site where there are fans from various NFL teams whereas I get bored and overloaded on Pats boards (I too get sick of some of the crap and OR-ish things posted on the Pats boards) and finally I have become good friends with a number of people here - GEM, North, King, Med (whom I have seen in a while) among others. I am not here to troll, but rather to try engaging in intelligent debates with people on different topics. I have made a concerted effort to avoid discussing Pats topics to avoid being accused of being a troll, but you and a few others continue to claim I am a troll.
"Why" would you be biased? Because you don't want to believe that Manning could NOT be washed up, because if he isn't, because if the Broncos can get this offense coached up to where they are even average, with this defense they pose a very serious threat to the Patriots repeat hopes, and you're a Pats fan. That's why.
Now, get lost. :coffee:Please cite where I said Peyton is washed up because I haven't. I said he is being paid for past performance, but he is still better than most of the QBs in the NFL today. Off the top of my head, I would take him over every QB in AFC central but Dalton and Ben R.; every QB in NFC East; every QB in NFC South but Brees and perhaps M. Ryan (would have to think about that one); every QB in NFC North but A Rodgers; every QB in AFC East but Brady; every QB in AFC West; every QB in NFC West except perhaps R. Wilson and C. Palmer (would have to think about each one); and every QB in AFC South but Luck. You're right, the Broncos are a threat to the Pats this year and pretty much every year.
TXBRONC
10-25-2015, 06:12 PM
Thats part of your problem.
#teameverybody #weareallbroncofans
#noteveryoneisabroncosfan :D
Cugel
10-27-2015, 12:22 PM
"I just think physically, Manning has lost control of his passes. He cannot control them the way he used to because of the neck surgeries."
You say this but there actually zero evidence that you're right. He had the neck surgeries in 2011. His arm strength has been among the worst QBs in the NFL since then. All the local sports reporters were talking with concern about Peyton's "wobblers" as long ago as the 2012 preseason. But, it didn't stop him from setting the NFL record of 5500 yards and 55 TDs in 2013.
Fans need to stop basing everything on results and analyse WHY things are happening.
There are a lot of differences between this offense and the 2013 offense, and none of those changes are for the better.
I really can't imagine what people expect from Manning, that he would "play better" - meaning make no mistakes? Has anybody watched Andrew Luck this season? He was the most highly touted draft pick since Manning, and he's played even worse than Manning, with far less excuse (he's 26 years old after all, not 39). He's thrown 11 TDs and 9 INTs, one fewer INT than Peyton.
Does anybody really believe Andrew Luck is "washed up"?
His OL is struggling, they have trouble running the ball. His receivers aren't making plays. And he's trying to force throws when he shouldn't. Sound familiar?
Peyton certainly deserves and gets lots of blame for trying to make something out of nothing and attempting to throw the ball over the head of the LB when Owen Daniels was not remotely open. He admitted as much in his post-game interview:
"That was me being stubborn. I should have thrown the ball away there. I was just determined not to give in to the defense [on 3rd down]."
I'd say it's pretty clear that he understands exactly what he did wrong. Nobody was open for about the 5th straight time on 3rd down and there was nowhere to throw the ball. But, he was frustrated from going 3 and out all the time and tried to force the ball into his TE, even though everybody was covered. He has to avoid doing that in future. And the OL is going to have to block better so that they can run the ball at least to some degree.
Otherwise nothing is going to improve.
Cugel
10-27-2015, 12:33 PM
Please cite where I said Peyton is washed up because I haven't. I said he is being paid for past performance, but he is still better than most of the QBs in the NFL today. Off the top of my head, I would take him over every QB in AFC central but Dalton and Ben R.; every QB in NFC East; every QB in NFC South but Brees and perhaps M. Ryan (would have to think about that one); every QB in NFC North but A Rodgers; every QB in AFC East but Brady; every QB in AFC West; every QB in NFC West except perhaps R. Wilson and C. Palmer (would have to think about each one); and every QB in AFC South but Luck. You're right, the Broncos are a threat to the Pats this year and pretty much every year.
OK. Fair enough. But, the Broncos are no threat at all to the Patriots unless they get the OL fixed to the point where they can run the ball.
Right now the running game has 2 big problems:
#1 - Blockers in the ZBS are supposed to be getting to the 2nd level and they are getting stood up at the line of scrimmage.
#2 - The ZBS is designed so the running back can cut-back and a cut-back lane is supposed to be open. Only the back-side blockers are supposed to cut the pursuit, so that LBs can't just run right down the LOS and tackle the runner before he can make the cut-back. They aren't doing that, so all too many runs are stuffed by the runner being caught from behind.
This isn't my analysis, it's the analysis of Coach Brian Billick. I posted a thread on these boards about an article he wrote for NFL.com, which everybody just ignored or criticized. Apparently, if Brian Billick disagrees with the expert fan analysis, then he's wrong, and lengthy discussions ensued about the fact that he believed in Kyle Boller as his QB, etc. and further irrelevancies. As if he couldn't look at game film and tell what's going on with an offense after spending 30 years as a coach including 1/2 that time in the NFL.
I have yet to see a single person here give Manning a free pass or excuse the fact he's playing poorly. We ALL see it.
Here's the difference between us football people and you not football person; we don't look at Manning's stats and take it at face value. We analyze WHY it's happening, not just WHAT it is. I'm sure even a person like you has heard the phrase "everything happens for a reason". Manning didn't just wake up this preseason and decide he's gonna suck. I wouldn't expect you to know anything about that though.
Welcome to the internet, where the lowest common denominator demands everything in monosyllabic 144-character soundbites and headlines, scouring anyone who dares write a sentence with >2 clauses (something everyone with an 8th grade education could comprehend 40 years ago.) To borrow one of the trendy memes, "Thinking? Ain't nobody got time for that!" And since the LCD is also the largest loudest audience, its word is law.
It's not just sports, but may be worst there, because geek chic has prompted a reactionary kneejerk response from the idiots who've always falsely believed athleticism and intellect mutually exclusive. Those people also happen to be the most inclined to turn on a guy whose whole HoF career's a product of his great mind DESPITE his weak arm. Expecting them to go beyond WHAT to discover WHY is like expecting a chimp to do calculus (in some cases, almost literally.)
That's the perspective of someone who's spent MOST of his time here seeking the WHY behind the WHAT, usually getting no more than complaints about "overthinking." The Broncos bottom line is that our one-man offense is aging but we waited till the eleventh hour to give him any help, so it'll probably take too long. It's been clear for years, but folks who can't think >5 seconds into the future or see beyond the self-evident couldn't or wouldn't see it. Too bad; what might have been.... :(
BroncoJoe
10-27-2015, 02:24 PM
WTF was that? I can't believe I still click on Joel's posts. It is entertaining, I guess.
Valar Morghulis
10-27-2015, 02:29 PM
I have you blocked Joe, i have no idea what you just said
BroncoJoe
10-27-2015, 02:54 PM
I have you blocked Joe, i have no idea what you just said
Liar. You love me. And you know it!
WTF was that? I can't believe I still click on Joel's posts. It is entertaining, I guess.
Thanks for proving the point; can't go broke relying on the lowest common denominator. ;)
Cugel
10-27-2015, 05:17 PM
Welcome to the internet, where the lowest common denominator demands everything in monosyllabic 144-character soundbites and headlines, scouring anyone who dares write a sentence with >2 clauses (something everyone with an 8th grade education could comprehend 40 years ago.) To borrow one of the trendy memes, "Thinking? Ain't nobody got time for that!" And since the LCD is also the largest loudest audience, its word is law.
It's not just sports, but may be worst there, because geek chic has prompted a reactionary kneejerk response from the idiots who've always falsely believed athleticism and intellect mutually exclusive. Those people also happen to be the most inclined to turn on a guy whose whole HoF career's a product of his great mind DESPITE his weak arm. Expecting them to go beyond WHAT to discover WHY is like expecting a chimp to do calculus (in some cases, almost literally.)
That's the perspective of someone who's spent MOST of his time here seeking the WHY behind the WHAT, usually getting no more than complaints about "overthinking." The Broncos bottom line is that our one-man offense is aging but we waited till the eleventh hour to give him any help, so it'll probably take too long. It's been clear for years, but folks who can't think >5 seconds into the future or see beyond the self-evident couldn't or wouldn't see it. Too bad; what might have been.... :(
Sorry Joel, but your post got mostly blocked by Twitter. Now it reads:
Welcome to the internet, where the lowest common denominator demands everything in monosyllabic 144-character soundbites and headlines, scour
Sorry Joel, but your post got mostly blocked by Twitter. Now it reads:
So I can only converse with people who don't use Twitter: File that one under "feature, not bug." :tongue:
MNPatsFan
10-28-2015, 08:23 AM
OK. Fair enough. But, the Broncos are no threat at all to the Patriots unless they get the OL fixed to the point where they can run the ball.I will defer to you and other Broncos fans on this because I have only seen portions of several Broncos games, not all of every game like you and most Broncos fans. Despite these issues, I still view the Broncos as a threat to the Patriots because:
(1) They have Manning, who is one of the GOATs;
(2) They have a very good D; and
(3) The Broncos have historically been the Patriots Kryptonite, as well as one of the few teams that Belichick and Brady have had difficulty beating.
As a result, I almost never count the Broncos out as a threat to the Patriots unless the Broncos were starting JaMarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf at QB:laugh:.
NightTerror218
10-28-2015, 10:38 AM
I will defer to you and other Broncos fans on this because I have only seen portions of several Broncos games, not all of every game like you and most Broncos fans. Despite these issues, I still view the Broncos as a threat to the Patriots because:
(1) They have Manning, who is one of the GOATs;
(2) They have a very good D; and
(3) The Broncos have historically been the Patriots Kryptonite, as well as one of the few teams that Belichick and Brady have had difficulty beating.
As a result, I almost never count the Broncos out as a threat to the Patriots unless the Broncos were starting JaMarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf at QB:laugh:.
Game is at Mile high this year.
After green Bay we will know how good the defense is and if they will be able to contain Brady.
As of now the offense will not be able to keep up with Brady. Maybe score a couple times but nothing significant.
Cugel
10-28-2015, 05:55 PM
So I can only converse with people who don't use Twitter: File that one under "feature, not bug." :tongue:
Just a joke.
I rarely try and use twitter because I think it's causing global stupidity - "any thought that can't be stated in 144 characters isn't worth saying" or "I don't have time for all that thinkin', I'm busy tweeting!"
Cugel
10-28-2015, 06:02 PM
I will defer to you and other Broncos fans on this because I have only seen portions of several Broncos games, not all of every game like you and most Broncos fans. Despite these issues, I still view the Broncos as a threat to the Patriots because:
(1) They have Manning, who is one of the GOATs;
(2) They have a very good D; and
(3) The Broncos have historically been the Patriots Kryptonite, as well as one of the few teams that Belichick and Brady have had difficulty beating.
As a result, I almost never count the Broncos out as a threat to the Patriots unless the Broncos were starting JaMarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf at QB:laugh:.
The real question is whether the Broncos defense is capable of playing like the 2013 Seahawks or the 2002 Bucs for an entire season, even against the best teams in the NFL, like the Patriots.
Right now, the defense has recovered 17 turnovers and scored 4 TDs in 6 games, and is on pace to give up fewer points than the 2013 Seahawks and 14 more than the Super-Bowl Bucs; a defense measurably better (so far) than the 2011 Giants or 2007 Giants teams that beat the Patriots in the Super-bowl.
But, of course, you have to do that in the playoffs, not just week 6 to be considered great, and they haven't done that . . . yet.
That's why I say the the Broncos have to be able to run the ball. I think it's too easy for really good defenses to stifle your offense if you're one-dimensional. That's the biggest reason the Pats lost to the Giants twice. Get quick pressure right in Brady's face, and blanket his receivers in the under-neath zone. And of course, they didn't have to worry about the Pats running game much.
Whether the Broncos can do that remains to be determined.
Just a joke.
Right, hence the smiley in my reply (Poes Law: Learn it, love it, live it. ;))
I rarely try and use twitter because I think it's causing global stupidity - "any thought that can't be stated in 144 characters isn't worth saying" or "I don't have time for all that thinkin', I'm busy tweeting!"
Twitter's just the newest part of the preexisting bumper sticker/sound bite mentalitys negative feedback loop. Sports is especially vulnerable, but I only WISH it were the only thing susceptible: To paraphrase what Jefferson often said, an uneducated electorate is its own worst enemy, and we need only look at a declining superpower drowning in a sea of cognitive dissonance to see proof. People have always preferred BELIEVING what they preferred be TRUE, but now there's a whole class of multimedia founded on reinforcing preferred falsehoods to the exclusion and outright angry denial of proven physical fact. It's Galileo vs. the Pope on a global scale, with global consequences.
The real question is whether the Broncos defense is capable of playing like the 2013 Seahawks or the 2002 Bucs for an entire season, even against the best teams in the NFL, like the Patriots.
Right now, the defense has recovered 17 turnovers and scored 4 TDs in 6 games, and is on pace to give up fewer points than the 2013 Seahawks and 14 more than the Super-Bowl Bucs; a defense measurably better (so far) than the 2011 Giants or 2007 Giants teams that beat the Patriots in the Super-bowl.
But, of course, you have to do that in the playoffs, not just week 6 to be considered great, and they haven't done that . . . yet.
That's why I say the the Broncos have to be able to run the ball. I think it's too easy for really good defenses to stifle your offense if you're one-dimensional. That's the biggest reason the Pats lost to the Giants twice. Get quick pressure right in Brady's face, and blanket his receivers in the under-neath zone. And of course, they didn't have to worry about the Pats running game much.
Whether the Broncos can do that remains to be determined.
Good point on the Giants winning SBs wins against TWO of the Cheatriots dynastys seemingly invincible, flawless, teams the same way Seattle beat our seemingly unstoppable "offense" (read: Passing.) It's also important to remember that 3-play TD drives don't rest defenses anymore than three-and-outs do, and moving the chains with 7 yd passes can't run out the clock if there's an incompete sandwiched between each one.
It's been (frequently and widely) said run-first teams depend on great D, but the reverse is equally true. The reason great defensive teams often have great running but rarely great passing is the same reason the few exceptions (e.g. the '80s Broncos and Bills) blow through the regular season only to get blown OUT in the playoffs.
Cugel
10-30-2015, 01:11 PM
Good point on the Giants winning SBs wins against TWO of the Cheatriots dynastys seemingly invincible, flawless, teams the same way Seattle beat our seemingly unstoppable "offense" (read: Passing.) It's also important to remember that 3-play TD drives don't rest defenses anymore than three-and-outs do, and moving the chains with 7 yd passes can't run out the clock if there's an incompete sandwiched between each one.
It's been (frequently and widely) said run-first teams depend on great D, but the reverse is equally true. The reason great defensive teams often have great running but rarely great passing is the same reason the few exceptions (e.g. the '80s Broncos and Bills) blow through the regular season only to get blown OUT in the playoffs.
I think I pointed out already that NONE of the top 5 scoring offenses in NFL history (2013 Broncos, 2007 Patriots, 2011 Packers, 1998 Vikings, 2012 Patriots) won super-bowls and only 1 of the top 10, the 1999 Rams won the SB.
By contrast, of the top 10 scoring defenses of the last 15 years (going back to the 2000 Ravens) 5 went to the super-bowl and 4 won championships:
1. 2000 Ravens - 165 points - champs
2. 2002 Bucs - 196 points - Champs
3. 2006 Ravens - 201 points
3. 2001 Bears - 201 points
5. 2005 Bears 202 points - lost SB
6. 2008 Steelers 223 points
7. 2011 Steelers 227 points
8. 2013 Seahawks 231 points - Champs
9. 2004 Bears 231 points
10. 2003 Pats - 238 points - Champs
Just based on history alone, you'd say the Broncos have a chance to win a SB - IF their defense can continue to play at this high level. (Of course Peyton has to stop throwing so many INTs).
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