There is a very very good thread going on at the OM right now. You should read it.

[underrated29]

Here is the link: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=119954



One guys is breaking down all of the last games actions with pictures. I highly recommend you check out this thread.

[Dapper Dan]

What's this Orange Mane of which you speak?

[DenBronx]

Well....why dont you go back to the Mane and tell them there are better threads going on here right now. You think they are all cool with their fancy little pictures and breakdowns of the games or something? Yeah...well....we got the good and bad after ea game here, CJ and Mannings playing possum threads. No way in hell the Mane can match that.

[Ravage!!!]

its interesting. It's just snap shots of the OL messing up and the outcomes. Not exactly ground breaking news, though.

"This just in, the OL is horrendous... this and more at 6!"

[Dapper Dan]

It's like BF is your girlfriend and OM is your ex. We're a little jealous you're still talking to her.

[VonDoom]

Here is the link: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=119954



One guys is breaking down all of the last games actions with pictures. I highly recommend you check out this thread.

I saw this earlier. Really interesting stuff. It's interesting to see, on a play by play basis, what we're dealing with. It seems like Manning is dealing with missed blocks or guys getting pushed back into him on every snap.

[BroncoJoe]

Yeah, but I'd guess you'd see similar situations with any QB/OL. There's a reason so many starting QB's have been hurt already.

[EastCoastBronco]

Yeah, but I'd guess you'd see similar situations with any QB/OL. There's a reason so many starting QB's have been hurt already.

This is true. If Russel Wilson wasn't mobile and protected from God on high, he'd be in a pine box right now...

[underrated29]

its interesting. It's just snap shots of the OL messing up and the outcomes. Not exactly ground breaking news, though.

"This just in, the OL is horrendous... this and more at 6!"


I find it very intersting. Mathis has sucked ass, completely! Schofield who sucked at the beginning started to lock things down late. Harris at LT is god awful and the TEs are too. The left side of the line is our downfall right now it seems. If Evan can get his head out of his mathis and play ball we may be alright but for now he is so bad.


This is not something I really noticed. I thought mathis was one of the better OL we had playing.
I also did not really notice that Peyton routinely only has 1 second to throw. I think the normal saying is 3 seconds. We should be able to slow a guy down for 3 seconds.

[underrated29]

It's like BF is your girlfriend and OM is your ex. We're a little jealous you're still talking to her.



She gave me warts. I was only talking to her out of spite.

[VonDoom]

I find it very intersting. Mathis has sucked ass, completely! Schofield who sucked at the beginning started to lock things down late. Harris at LT is god awful and the TEs are too. The left side of the line is our downfall right now it seems. If Evan can get his head out of his mathis and play ball we may be alright but for now he is so bad.


This is not something I really noticed. I thought mathis was one of the better OL we had playing.
I also did not really notice that Peyton routinely only has 1 second to throw. I think the normal saying is 3 seconds. We should be able to slow a guy down for 3 seconds.

Yeah, I saw the same things in that thread that you did. Mathis is not looking good, which is really surprising to me, especially given how he's still getting good PFF grades. He gets run over way too much. Harris is also terrible at LT. If Sambrailo is healthy this week, I assume he'd be back at that spot; I don't know if he's a real upgrade, but he can't be worse.

Someone in that thread mentioned RB screens - did that come up on this board as well? Rivers was indeed doing a lot of quick throws to RB's, and his line is either injured or terrible (I assume this includes their star acquisition Franklin, though I have not watched enough of their games to know for sure). Our RB's were a nice complimentary part of our passing game a couple of years ago and basically non-existent so far this year.

[Davii]

Actually a good run down. I don't see how you can refute the conclusion that our problems stem from the line. I'm not saying Manning isn't causing issues, or if we could transplant someone else's lower body that he wouldn't improve, I'm just saying our line is bad and is the root of our current struggles.

[Slick]

What did Denver get for Chris Clark? He was better than any tackle on the roster not named Clady. That trade seems like a dumb move in hindsight.

I like reading the Mane but I don't post a whole lot. Kind of like here, they're not all that nice to new comers.

...and if people think the bitching about Manning is bad here, they definitely shouldn't read the Mane.

[tomjonesrocks]

Thought that thread was really interesting. You wonder how much better Manning might be playing with better O-line play.

Nicely done by that poster.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Part of the issue is we are playing our #4 and #5 tackles right now. I think we're actually decent up the middle.

[gregbroncs]

stopped looking at post #9. He criticizes the OL for getting stood up, but both guys he's beating up on have their blocks and their is a huge whole between them to run through. Only the Raiders had 8 guys in the box and 2 of the linebackers moved toward the line of scrimmage on the snap. That's 7 guys being blocked by 5 and the LB is in the hole that the T and G he is beating up on made.

In other words he is looking to blame the OL for every play and is not being honest about what is going on. Making any more of that thread, not worth reading.

[VonDoom]

Part of the issue is we are playing our #4 and #5 tackles right now. I think we're actually decent up the middle.

Mathis has not been nearly as good as I had hoped. The tackles are certainly the bigger issue at this point, though.

[VonDoom]

What did Denver get for Chris Clark? He was better than any tackle on the roster not named Clady. That trade seems like a dumb move in hindsight.

I like reading the Mane but I don't post a whole lot. Kind of like here, they're not all that nice to new comers.

...and if people think the bitching about Manning is bad here, they definitely shouldn't read the Mane.

I think we got a ham sandwich for Clark (7th rounder, I believe).

And yes, I lurk at the Mane but don't post there. There are some great football insights in threads such as this one and most everything else is bitching and name calling.

[underrated29]

stopped looking at post #9. He criticizes the OL for getting stood up, but both guys he's beating up on have their blocks and their is a huge whole between them to run through. Only the Raiders had 8 guys in the box and 2 of the linebackers moved toward the line of scrimmage on the snap. That's 7 guys being blocked by 5 and the LB is in the hole that the T and G he is beating up on made.

In other words he is looking to blame the OL for every play and is not being honest about what is going on. Making any more of that thread, not worth reading.



I went to that specific play you cite. Here is what I see, tell me how its not this:


They have 7 men in the box, not 8. Looks like nickel to me. 7 in the box, 2cbs wide and 1cb slot on the TE? and 1 deep s which we cannot see.

The two blockers do have their guys as you say. They are also both BEHIND the line of scrimmage. Run blocking you try to move forward not backwards.
Next, that huge hole to run through has a raiders LB RIGHT THERE!!...Like its not even funny how right there he is. He is going to stuff that hole like Kobe bryant at a hotel. Adrian Peterson wouldnt make it through that hole. It looks like 69 on our OL is trying to make it there to block that LB but he doesnt make it in time, obviously.

So its a 7 man vs 5, like most nfl teams see. ONly those teams usually run for gains. Hillman got 3 yards on that play.


In other words it seems like you sir may be the one trying to blame him, the scheme or manning for what is wrong, except the Oline.




Please advise if what I just said is wrong

[Ravage!!!]

I find it very intersting. Mathis has sucked ass, completely! Schofield who sucked at the beginning started to lock things down late. Harris at LT is god awful and the TEs are too. The left side of the line is our downfall right now it seems. If Evan can get his head out of his mathis and play ball we may be alright but for now he is so bad.


This is not something I really noticed. I thought mathis was one of the better OL we had playing.
I also did not really notice that Peyton routinely only has 1 second to throw. I think the normal saying is 3 seconds. We should be able to slow a guy down for 3 seconds.

Wait wait... the TEs are too? Holllllllld on. I was told that we had great blocking TEs and that its ok that they suck ass in the passing game because we are gaining so much from their great blocking skills.

[BroncoJoe]

I'm gonna try and get banned from that shit-hole of a site. Or at least upset a few people.

[Northman]

I'm gonna try and get banned from that shit-hole of a site. Or at least upset a few people.

It takes a lot to get banned from there but i want to see you go apeshit. lol

[Northman]

stopped looking at post #9. He criticizes the OL for getting stood up, but both guys he's beating up on have their blocks and their is a huge whole between them to run through. Only the Raiders had 8 guys in the box and 2 of the linebackers moved toward the line of scrimmage on the snap. That's 7 guys being blocked by 5 and the LB is in the hole that the T and G he is beating up on made.

In other words he is looking to blame the OL for every play and is not being honest about what is going on. Making any more of that thread, not worth reading.

Not only that but as someone else already pointed out other teams are having oline issues too. The Pats Oline is only ranked two spots above ours yet they still hung 30 pts on the Cowboys even with Brady getting sacked 5 times. We all knew the Oline was young and would struggle a bit but again thats why you have a guy like Manning who can make the quicker decisions and make smarter decisions with the football. He's just not doing it, even when he has time which is clearly being ignored by the guy from that site.

[GEM]

its interesting. It's just snap shots of the OL messing up and the outcomes. Not exactly ground breaking news, though.

"This just in, the OL is horrendous... this and more at 6!"

Right! Hell any of us could have saved you 8 pages and told you in one post....the offensive line is offensive. Now give us the brownie points over there for getting to the point quicker.

Kthxbai.

[GEM]

I find it very intersting. Mathis has sucked ass, completely! Schofield who sucked at the beginning started to lock things down late. Harris at LT is god awful and the TEs are too. The left side of the line is our downfall right now it seems. If Evan can get his head out of his mathis and play ball we may be alright but for now he is so bad.


This is not something I really noticed. I thought mathis was one of the better OL we had playing.
I also did not really notice that Peyton routinely only has 1 second to throw. I think the normal saying is 3 seconds. We should be able to slow a guy down for 3 seconds.

Pay attention, UR...many of us have said Mathis is a turnstile since game 1 and not improving too dramatically. I guess you need pictures, because all that has been posted in that thread has been posted here. :laugh:

[underrated29]

Pay attention, UR...many of us have said Mathis is a turnstile since game 1 and not improving too dramatically. I guess you need pictures, because all that has been posted in that thread has been posted here. :laugh:


pictures, mazes and a few spots for coloring make my world bright and joyous.

[NightTerror218]

I found interesting that raiders blitzed a ton. Played a 5-2 front 7. But I counted 8 players a lot. Oh yah, like I have been saying a safety has even dropped down like a coverage LB taking away the middle.

In the entire first half of raiders game there were two screen/check downs to RB. One went for 12 yards by Thompson and the other 5 yards by hillman. This play needs to be called more period with this much blitzing.

[Joel]

its interesting. It's just snap shots of the OL messing up and the outcomes. Not exactly ground breaking news, though.

"This just in, the OL is horrendous... this and more at 6!"
One wouldn't think so, but here we are doing the same old "we can't pass, can't run, sometimes can't even punt; our QB, RBs and punter SUCK111" dance, and daring to point out the real problem's delusional.

That truly is a fantastic thread, because going through every play with labeled photos makes it painfully clear how little Manning and our RBs can do about the problem crippling BOTH.

Lotta painful reminders there, like BOTH sides of the pocket insta-collapsing on the deep completion off Sanders' doube move early; only thing I'd add there is that, even though Manning stepped up in the pocket to avoid the pressure, that just meant he got buried when the FRONT collapsed just after the throw. I still don't know how he stayed alive long for Sanders to make a double move AND get that far downfield. And the first pick, when we left a blitzer UNBLOCKED straight up the gut and Manning released it as he was hit hard.

Also, the early stretch to the left where pretty much each and every lineman blew his block and CJ just had to keep going further and further left waiting for a cutback opportunity that NEVER CAME, so he wound up getting all of 2 yds diving forward when he ran out of green. Not ground breaking new, no, and not complicated stuff, yet so many people refuse to see it. Even with CBS' display of the game clock clearly showing Manning rarely has >2 seconds (and often less) to set up and throw.


Thought that thread was really interesting. You wonder how much better Manning might be playing with better O-line play.
Yes, I do: Constantly. Having just turned 41, I have NO delusions a 39-year-old surgically repaired QB can still do everything he could at 29—but it sure would be nice to see him with decent protection long enough to KNOW how much he's lost and how much he's just making the best of a hopeless situation. Much as I wonder the same about our revolving door at tailback.

[Joel]

What did Denver get for Chris Clark? He was better than any tackle on the roster not named Clady. That trade seems like a dumb move in hindsight.
Clarks fanbase is much more solid than his play, because he's a poor mans Franklin: Good for bull rushes and run surge, but too slow and inagile to handle even the slightest movement. Whatever people believe, in 2013 he was routinely abused by speed rushers (the bulk of what LTs face) and stumbles against stunts and simillar tactics. Again I note: He gave up strip-sacks in THREE STRAIGHT GAMES (@Indy for the safety, then vs. Washington and SD, setting up short TDs both times) long before we got to the SB. Now, if he was that bad in our old system, how's a guy with such heavy feet gonna make it in a ZBS?

No, we didn't get much for him, because the rookie cap further inflated already overvalued picks, but if we don't trade him we probably cut him and get NOTHING, so a late round pick's marginally better.

[Slick]

Someone also pointed out that Denver's not throwing to the RBs in the flats, ala Phyllis Rivers. Get them into some space, slow the pass rush down a little. Seems like a sound idea.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Someone also pointed out that Denver's not throwing to the RBs in the flats, ala Phyllis Rivers. Get them into some space, slow the pass rush down a little. Seems like a sound idea.

It sounds great, but with LB's and safeties stacking the box I'm doubtful it would be very effective.

[Slick]

It sounds great, but with LB's and safeties stacking the box I'm doubtful it would be very effective.

Well they only did it once against the Raiders and it went for 16 yards.

[NightTerror218]

It sounds great, but with LB's and safeties stacking the box I'm doubtful it would be very effective.

It shod work well with a good burst from a RB. All LB concentrated on blitzing and SS taking away the middle of field it could work very very well. Oh it did Thompson got 16 yards one.

[Joel]

Someone also pointed out that Denver's not throwing to the RBs in the flats, ala Phyllis Rivers. Get them into some space, slow the pass rush down a little. Seems like a sound idea.
There's little practical difference between that and our WR screens. A RB is bit slower and harder to tackle, but favoring DT for screens means someone MUCH faster than Hillman and Anderson, and only slightly easier to tackle. The sole functional difference I see is that, in a D set up to stop downfield passes, DBs watch the WRs, so immediately come up to stop them WHEREVER they catch the ball; when it goes to a RB, they're STILL watching the WRs (this is one reason I hate substituting short passes for runs: WRs can't run defenders out of the play, because they ARE the play, same as on a long pass.)

The point of all that is that our once lethal WR screens didn't become useless just because defenses saw the film: Our linemen can't collectively pull and block outside, else sweeps, counters and WR screens wouldn't be as useless as they are. The ONE thing Beadles did well (and Man Ram OK) was downfield block guys half his size, so the screen game worked, but once he was replaced by Franklin (who's about as mobile as a block of cement) everything ground to a screeching halt. Like everything else revolving around our inept line, finding new ways to fail can't fix that core problem.

[NightTerror218]

There's little practical difference between that and our WR screens. A RB is bit slower and harder to tackle, but favoring DT for screens means someone MUCH faster than Hillman and Anderson, and only slightly easier to tackle. The sole functional difference I see is that, in a D set up to stop downfield passes, DBs watch the WRs, so immediately come up to stop them WHEREVER they catch the ball; when it goes to a RB, they're STILL watching the WRs (this is one reason I hate substituting short passes for runs: WRs can't run defenders out of the play, because they ARE the play, same as on a long pass.)

The point of all that is that our once lethal WR screens didn't become useless just because defenses saw the film: Our linemen can't collectively pull and block outside, else sweeps, counters and WR screens wouldn't be as useless as they are. The ONE thing Beadles did well (and Man Ram OK) was downfield block guys half his size, so the screen game worked, but once he was replaced by Franklin (who's about as mobile as a block of cement) everything ground to a screeching halt. Like everything else revolving around our inept line, finding new ways to fail can't fix that core problem.

Joel you are dead wrong in sentence one. Look at the 16 yard screen by thompson. You can't claim they are they same when a RB comes out of the back field and a WR has a corner 5 yards away. DT is a good blocker and can spring RB. WR has no chance because corners play on the line. DT is hit as soon as he catches the ball and has no chance to make a move.

I know OL is bad. But this is about beating blitzing. RB screens/ check down anything to get RB ball in open space it has worked.

[Joel]

Joel you are dead wrong in sentence one. Look at the 16 yard screen by thompson. You can't claim they are they same when a RB comes out of the back field and a WR has a corner 5 yards away. DT is a good blocker and can spring RB. WR has no chance because corners play on the line. DT is hit as soon as he catches the ball and has no chance to make a move.

I know OL is bad. But this is about beating blitzing. RB screens/ check down anything to get RB ball in open space it has worked.
I can't find video of the play online, but if you re-watch it I believe you'll see Thompson was behind or at the line and had to break a tackle just to get out of the backfield, then broke two more to get his 16 yds. Demaryius Thomas is a fantastic run blocker (at least by WR standards,) so much that one of my complaints against giving JT DT money is that DT plays WR AND TE far better: But CBs aren't the only ones allowed to tackle on screen plays, and if the linemen can't get out ahead of it, it looks about the same as sweep, counter or pitch: How many tackles do we expect our RBs to break?

I like Juwan Thompson, precisely because he does things like break multiple tackles to turn a short loss into a 16 yd gain: Why didn't we see him after that? Because our idiot coaches benched him? Oh, right: Because he was HURT so badly he may not play THIS week; I wonder how that happened on a SINGLE play (but don't wonder much....) If it were JUST about beating blitzes, DT can't break a mere CBs tackle about as well as a RB can; the problem is, even blitzing LBs and DEs can recognize and get outside for our screen game faster than our offensive linemen who KNOW the playcall.

That's pathetic, but Hillman, Anderson or Thompson going down in a pile in place of DT doesn't make it any less pathetic (it certainly hasn't made our 31st ranked 3.3 yds/att rushing average any better.)

[DenBronx]

stopped looking at post #9. He criticizes the OL for getting stood up, but both guys he's beating up on have their blocks and their is a huge whole between them to run through. Only the Raiders had 8 guys in the box and 2 of the linebackers moved toward the line of scrimmage on the snap. That's 7 guys being blocked by 5 and the LB is in the hole that the T and G he is beating up on made.

In other words he is looking to blame the OL for every play and is not being honest about what is going on. Making any more of that thread, not worth reading.



I went to that specific play you cite. Here is what I see, tell me how its not this:


They have 7 men in the box, not 8. Looks like nickel to me. 7 in the box, 2cbs wide and 1cb slot on the TE? and 1 deep s which we cannot see.

The two blockers do have their guys as you say. They are also both BEHIND the line of scrimmage. Run blocking you try to move forward not backwards.
Next, that huge hole to run through has a raiders LB RIGHT THERE!!...Like its not even funny how right there he is. He is going to stuff that hole like Kobe bryant at a hotel. Adrian Peterson wouldnt make it through that hole. It looks like 69 on our OL is trying to make it there to block that LB but he doesnt make it in time, obviously.

So its a 7 man vs 5, like most nfl teams see. ONly those teams usually run for gains. Hillman got 3 yards on that play.


In other words it seems like you sir may be the one trying to blame him, the scheme or manning for what is wrong, except the Oline.




Please advise if what I just said is wrong



Dear UR,

Just because your OrangrMane fanbois said doesn't make it true.

Sincerely,

DenBronx
Aka #1BroncosfaninCali

[NightTerror218]

I can't find video of the play online, but if you re-watch it I believe you'll see Thompson was behind or at the line and had to break a tackle just to get out of the backfield, then broke two more to get his 16 yds. Demaryius Thomas is a fantastic run blocker (at least by WR standards,) so much that one of my complaints against giving JT DT money is that DT plays WR AND TE far better: But CBs aren't the only ones allowed to tackle on screen plays, and if the linemen can't get out ahead of it, it looks about the same as sweep, counter or pitch: How many tackles do we expect our RBs to break?

I like Juwan Thompson, precisely because he does things like break multiple tackles to turn a short loss into a 16 yd gain: Why didn't we see him after that? Because our idiot coaches benched him? Oh, right: Because he was HURT so badly he may not play THIS week; I wonder how that happened on a SINGLE play (but don't wonder much....) If it were JUST about beating blitzes, DT can't break a mere CBs tackle about as well as a RB can; the problem is, even blitzing LBs and DEs can recognize and get outside for our screen game faster than our offensive linemen who KNOW the playcall.

That's pathetic, but Hillman, Anderson or Thompson going down in a pile in place of DT doesn't make it any less pathetic (it certainly hasn't made our 31st ranked 3.3 yds/att rushing average any better.)

Thompsons play was not a run but a pass. Are you being condescending now?

Manning is the most blitzed QB fact. Our OL sucks fact. Watch raiders game, they blitzed all the f*ck ing time with LB. Go back and watch. Manni g has zero pocket time. OL can't coordinate or do crap do pick these blitzed consistently so they work. Also go back and could t ayers in the box often there are 5-6 guys on the line and 2-3 behind them. Stacked boxes. You expect a RB to do well against that? Raiders played a 5-2 defense with 2 LB and 5 on the line. Also if you go back and count the defenders there are 8....wtf.....oh right a safety is playing down. There is another tread that has a link to another broncos forum, they thread has a breakdown of every offensive play in first half. Go take a look Mr know it all.

Thompson made a nice 16 yard gain or a PASS. On Manning int in the end zone we had a open RB coming out of the backfield. So many relays of that int you can see him with nobody around him.

I do not expect RB to break every tackle but at least a few a game. As for DT it's harder to break a tackler when you catch the ball flat footed and he is on your nuts. As opposed to RB who is on the move often coming out of backfield. Momentum helps a lot of break tackles, physics says so. Arm tackles would be nice to be broken.

[Joel]

Thompsons play was not a run but a pass. Are you being condescending now?

Manning is the most blitzed QB fact. Our OL sucks fact. Watch raiders game, they blitzed all the f*ck ing time with LB. Go back and watch. Manni g has zero pocket time. OL can't coordinate or do crap do pick these blitzed consistently so they work. Also go back and could t ayers in the box often there are 5-6 guys on the line and 2-3 behind them. Stacked boxes. You expect a RB to do well against that? Raiders played a 5-2 defense with 2 LB and 5 on the line. Also if you go back and count the defenders there are 8....wtf.....oh right a safety is playing down. There is another tread that has a link to another broncos forum, they thread has a breakdown of every offensive play in first half. Go take a look Mr know it all.

Thompson made a nice 16 yard gain or a PASS. On Manning int in the end zone we had a open RB coming out of the backfield. So many relays of that int you can see him with nobody around him.

I do not expect RB to break every tackle but at least a few a game. As for DT it's harder to break a tackler when you catch the ball flat footed and he is on your nuts. As opposed to RB who is on the move often coming out of backfield. Momentum helps a lot of break tackles, physics says so. Arm tackles would be nice to be broken.
Yeah, I realize it was a pass, but, in terms of a WR BLOCKING for a RB coming out of the backfield, the difference is semantic: The CB and DT would've done the exact same things on a pitch, or even an inside plunge. But the CB wasn't the guy trying to tackle Thompson FROM BEHIND (on a freakin' SCREEN; just how bad is our line?!) nor any of the other tacklers Thompson had to run over to gain 16 yds, all because none of the people PAID (solely) for blocking are earning their salaries. No, I'm not being condescending, only trying to remind you of stuff you SHOULD already know; only you "know" whether you DO.

For example: A RB catching a screen pass is no more nor less flat footed than DT; the sole difference is that the RB is a bit harder to tackle but MUCH slower. The SOLE difference: Neither has blocking worth a darn, else we wouldn't need so many screens, sweeps and counters that STILL fail because defenders can analyze and adapt to a play faster than the offensive linemen who KNOW it's coming.

Go back and look at that end zone Int and you may not see anyone around the RB, but you'll DEFINITELY see a LB right over center come through UNBLOCKED at the snap, and he's about all Manning COULD see: Dude went down as he released the ball, but people are complaining about his "poor decision making." That's like saying a "possum" "made a bad decision" to get hit by a truck.

[Dzone]

Wonder if they will be putting Max Garcia in at TE again this game. So much for virgil green being a beast of a blocker

[Jsteve01]

Listen, I find it funny that most people acknowledge that line play is the reason that CJ and the run game in general have looked so putrid, but it is somehow forgotten when discussing the passing game. This experiment has been a disaster. Our knee jerk reactions over the past few years when it comes to personnel on this line are becoming frustrating. I completely agree that it was silly to trade Clark when all we had in front of him was a rookie. The rush to move Franklin inside was the first in a long line of just plain bad moves when it came to this unit. Can't say he didn't go after talent by signing Mathis but Mathis is also old.

[dogfish]

It sounds great, but with LB's and safeties stacking the box I'm doubtful it would be very effective.

sounds about a thousand percent smarter than throwing that damn stupid bubble screen to DT one more time. . . :doh:

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

sounds about a thousand percent smarter than throwing that damn stupid bubble screen to DT one more time. . . :doh:

I'd like to take some shots down the seam, but we haven't done that much in the last 10-11 months.

[dogfish]

I'd like to take some shots down the seam, but we haven't done that much in the last 10-11 months.

another part of the "puzzle" is the fact that, frankly, manning's diminshed skill set (plus the sketchy pass pro) doesn't really mesh that great w/ a pair of beastly outside receivers. . . not that those guys can't run the routes, of course, but they're probably at their most dangerous outside the numbers. . . manning's more of a middle of the field passer now, for sure. . . so far, not only have our TEs just sucked, but we haven't established a consistent slot receiver, either. . . i wish they'd settle on either benny or norwood as the #3, and just stick with it. . . hate to keep stressing it, but manning has always been a timing passer-- they need to pick a full-time slot guy, and let them get comfortable together. . . those quick routes are too crucial for our offense-- if they won't go trade for a better receiving TE or back, they at least need to get the slot settled. . .

[Ravage!!!]

Huh..... so missing a TE that threatens the other team. Who'd thunk it.

[Northman]

Its not about not having a good receiving TE, its about not overpaying one that cant block or spends too much time being injured. The guys we have may not be filling the void but at least we are not overpaying a guy to sit on the sideline.

[Ravage!!!]

Its not about not having a good receiving TE, its about not overpaying one that cant block or spends too much time being injured. The guys we have may not be filling the void but at least we are not overpaying a guy to sit on the sideline.

Yeah.. I keep hearing this. Hasn't held true, yet. We want to 'fill the role' with cheaper options, and the cheaper options have failed miserably, and our offensive output is 1/2 of just last year. We don't have anyone that threatens the field, and the only thing that some fans want to say is "but he cost too much." Sorry, I'm not buying into that BS because he was too valuable to this offense, and its showing in a GLARING, FLASHING LIGHTS, kinda way.

[Northman]

Yeah.. I keep hearing this. Hasn't held true, yet. We want to 'fill the role' with cheaper options, and the cheaper options have failed miserably, and our offensive output is 1/2 of just last year. We don't have anyone that threatens the field, and the only thing that some fans want to say is "but he cost too much." Sorry, I'm not buying into that BS because he was too valuable to this offense, and its showing in a GLARING, FLASHING LIGHTS, kinda way.

Thats ok, keep burying your head in the sand.

[Dzone]

Some QBs hang on too long
7941

[Ravage!!!]

Thats ok, keep burying your head in the sand.

I could very well say the exact same thing about your opinion on this. Just keep believing we are better off if that makes you feel better.

[dogfish]

Huh..... so missing a TE that threatens the other team. Who'd thunk it.

man, please! julius thomas is still a gigantic, fluffy soft piece of crap, so don't even start with that junk again!!

:lol::lol::lol:


that clown will be out of football in a year or two, the jags were fools to pay him. . . that doesn't change the fact that the kid we drafted to fill that spot also got hurt, and it left us short. . . the idea of paying thomas over someone like chris harris makes me laugh, though. . .

[DenBronx]

Oh god...you guys that keep minimizing the threat that JT was seriously need to quit doing drugs. Lol

I guess Jimmy Graham sucks too now that he's not putting up eye popping numbers in a system that doesn't fit him. Give me Graham or JT anyday over the bums we have now. Even Dreesen and Tamme were better!

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Dude, JT is not in the same class as Graham, get real. I'd gladly pay Graham 10-15 million per year.

[dogfish]

I guess Jimmy Graham sucks too now that he's not putting up eye popping numbers in a system that doesn't fit him. Give me Graham or JT anyday over the bums we have now. Even Dreesen and Tamme were better!

which of our defensive players would you give up to have his broken ass back?

[DenBronx]

Dude, JT is not in the same class as Graham, get real. I'd gladly pay Graham 10-15 million per year.

JT might not be as good as Jimmy Graham but last time I checked he was good enough for 12 TDs a year and kept the chains moving.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

JT might not be as good as Jimmy Graham but last time I checked he was good enough for 12 TDs a year and kept the chains moving.

He had his place, but teams with talent deficits are usually the ones who will give players like Zane Beadles and JT franchise money.

He was a good receiver, but not worth franchise money.

[DenBronx]

I guess Jimmy Graham sucks too now that he's not putting up eye popping numbers in a system that doesn't fit him. Give me Graham or JT anyday over the bums we have now. Even Dreesen and Tamme were better!

which of our defensive players would you give up to have his broken ass back?

For 1 Manning took a pay cut. 2, had still had cap room. 3 we didnt have to sign Daniels.

We wouldn't of had to give up anyone on defense.

[DenBronx]

JT might not be as good as Jimmy Graham but last time I checked he was good enough for 12 TDs a year and kept the chains moving.

He had his place, but teams with talent deficits are usually the ones who will give players like Zane Beadles and JT franchise money.

He was a good receiver, but not worth franchise money.


Lolol who in the hell cares about money when were trying to win now? Last time I checked it doesn't come out of my bank account anyway.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Lolol who in the hell cares about money when were trying to win now? Last time I checked it doesn't come out of my bank account anyway.

They point is, we didn't have the $$ to give him what he was asking for. If you give a part time player $10+million per year it's going to reduce talent elsewhere. But I don't understand how much help he'd provide right now anyway, he hasn't had a TD in almost what, 10 months?

[dogfish]

For 1 Manning took a pay cut. 2, had still had cap room. 3 we didnt have to sign Daniels.

We wouldn't of had to give up anyone on defense.

this year. . . but the money we save by not having him will be rolled over, and will help us keep von miller and sly williams next year. . . that's infinitely more important than keeping a gimp TE around-- von is worth about five times what JT is to an organization. . .


and even now, we're still spending 9 million more on offense than on defense (http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/denver-broncos/)-- you can't put all your money on one side of the ball, and elway knows it. . . anyway, not gonna **** up U29's thread any more talking about the gimp. . . it's a discussion that's been had elsewhere, and the main point remains the same-- admitting that we need more production from the TEs isn't the same at all as saying we should have kept thomas. . . that ship has sailed, in any case, because he wasn't a kicking and screaming guy. . . we really do need someone to step up, though-- i don't care if it's a slot guy or a TE, but it would really help us out if PFM could establish a comfort level with somebody to work those underneath routes. . . would take some pressure off the OL for sure. . .

[Northman]

They point is, we didn't have the $$ to give him what he was asking for. If you give a part time player $10+million per year it's going to reduce talent elsewhere. But I don't understand how much help he'd provide right now anyway, he hasn't had a TD in almost what, 10 months?

I think you totally have put the FINGER on it Al.

[Ravage!!!]

man, please! julius thomas is still a gigantic, fluffy soft piece of crap, so don't even start with that junk again!!

:lol::lol::lol:


that clown will be out of football in a year or two, the jags were fools to pay him. . . that doesn't change the fact that the kid we drafted to fill that spot also got hurt, and it left us short. . . the idea of paying thomas over someone like chris harris makes me laugh, though. . .

THis is so full of shit Dog.... just because YOU think this crap doesn't make it true, and you are completely wrong. The idea that JT isn't HUGELY missed on this team, makes me laugh. The fact ahtat some of you got your feelings hurt because he wanted more money, makes me laugh. THe fact that you guys use the "soft" thing as if its a fact thing, makes ME laugh.

THe thoughtt hat some of you want to use the injury to his hand he got at Jax, and think he would have the same injury had he been in Denver...is absurd. THe point is, we don't have ANY kind of talent at TE, and the chains aren't moving at all, and Peyton is WISHING he was here...... But BY GOLLY!!!!! We saved that money!! Whoot whoot! Glad we improved that OL with ALLLLLLL that money we saved...WHOOT WHOOT!! Sure glad we used that money on a TE that obviously took the place of that "soft" TE that was scoring and moving the chains.. WHOOT WHOOT! What a move... how awesome is this offense without him? Man is Peyton getting SOOOO much more protection with those GREAT blocking TEs that I was told we would get.. WHOOT WHOOT!!

Yeah.. WElllllllll worth the "savings" for sure. Definitely hasn't hurt, and this OL has really boosted up the team. Yeup, definitely the right move.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Northman]

I'm glad that Rav has come to terms that JT is soft as baby shit. We now have closure.

[NightTerror218]

Yeah, I realize it was a pass, but, in terms of a WR BLOCKING for a RB coming out of the backfield, the difference is semantic: The CB and DT would've done the exact same things on a pitch, or even an inside plunge. But the CB wasn't the guy trying to tackle Thompson FROM BEHIND (on a freakin' SCREEN; just how bad is our line?!) nor any of the other tacklers Thompson had to run over to gain 16 yds, all because none of the people PAID (solely) for blocking are earning their salaries. No, I'm not being condescending, only trying to remind you of stuff you SHOULD already know; only you "know" whether you DO.

For example: A RB catching a screen pass is no more nor less flat footed than DT; the sole difference is that the RB is a bit harder to tackle but MUCH slower. The SOLE difference: Neither has blocking worth a darn, else we wouldn't need so many screens, sweeps and counters that STILL fail because defenders can analyze and adapt to a play faster than the offensive linemen who KNOW it's coming.

Go back and look at that end zone Int and you may not see anyone around the RB, but you'll DEFINITELY see a LB right over center come through UNBLOCKED at the snap, and he's about all Manning COULD see: Dude went down as he released the ball, but people are complaining about his "poor decision making." That's like saying a "possum" "made a bad decision" to get hit by a truck.

I am talking real plays and you are going on examples lmfao.

DT caught a pass standing still...Glad footed. Juwan was on the move....good f*ck ing lord you are thick lately. On a passing play the OL are not going to second level to block and RB are open on check downs just about every time alone. So how are they suppose to be in pass protection and blocking for a check down?

How the f*ck does a LB in Manning's face change the fact that the RB was open? You are not even on the same book as me and trying to argue wtf?

[DenBronx]

For 1 Manning took a pay cut. 2, had still had cap room. 3 we didnt have to sign Daniels.

We wouldn't of had to give up anyone on defense.

this year. . . but the money we save by not having him will be rolled over, and will help us keep von miller and sly williams next year. . . that's infinitely more important than keeping a gimp TE around-- von is worth about five times what JT is to an organization. .


I doubt Manning comes back next year. We would have been fine.

[DenBronx]

Its not about not having a good receiving TE


Why yes....yes it is.


See Shannon Sharpe and our SB runs.

In fact what helped us get to one in 2013?

[DenBronx]

man, please! julius thomas is still a gigantic, fluffy soft piece of crap, so don't even start with that junk again!!

:lol::lol::lol:


that clown will be out of football in a year or two, the jags were fools to pay him. . . that doesn't change the fact that the kid we drafted to fill that spot also got hurt, and it left us short. . . the idea of paying thomas over someone like chris harris makes me laugh, though. . .

THis is so full of shit Dog.... just because YOU think this crap doesn't make it true, and you are completely wrong. The idea that JT isn't HUGELY missed on this team, makes me laugh. The fact ahtat some of you got your feelings hurt because he wanted more money, makes me laugh. THe fact that you guys use the "soft" thing as if its a fact thing, makes ME laugh.

THe thoughtt hat some of you want to use the injury to his hand he got at Jax, and think he would have the same injury had he been in Denver...is absurd. THe point is, we don't have ANY kind of talent at TE, and the chains aren't moving at all, and Peyton is WISHING he was here...... But BY GOLLY!!!!! We saved that money!! Whoot whoot! Glad we improved that OL with ALLLLLLL that money we saved...WHOOT WHOOT!! Sure glad we used that money on a TE that obviously took the place of that "soft" TE that was scoring and moving the chains.. WHOOT WHOOT! What a move... how awesome is this offense without him? Man is Peyton getting SOOOO much more protection with those GREAT blocking TEs that I was told we would get.. WHOOT WHOOT!!

Yeah.. WElllllllll worth the "savings" for sure. Definitely hasn't hurt, and this OL has really boosted up the team. Yeup, definitely the right move.
:lol: :lol: :lol:



Lol Rav nailed it.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Why yes....yes it is.


See Shannon Sharpe and our SB runs.

In fact what helped us get to one in 2013?

Shannon played.though, a lot. In fact, he was even sighted blocking on occasion.

[Simple Jaded]

Julius Thomas is a total candyass, you don't reward that level of soft with Top position money.

[Simple Jaded]

Shannon played.though, a lot. In fact, he was even sighted blocking on occasion.

Sharpe blocked for two 2000 yard RB's, he wasn't a 3rd OT by any means but he didn't escort defenders to the RB like JT does.

[Simple Jaded]

Lolol who in the hell cares about money when were trying to win now? Last time I checked it doesn't come out of my bank account anyway.

You gotta look at it from the FO point of view, you simply can't argue that every negative thing we've said about JT is true, therefor you can't reward JT with a fat new contract and then give the rest of the team the "kicking and screaming" message.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

You gotta look at it from the FO point of view, you simply can't argue that every negative thing we've said about JT is true, therefor you can't reward JT with a fat new contract and then give the rest of the team the "kicking and screaming" message.

And there you have it folks.

[VonDoom]

Julius Thomas is a total candyass, you don't reward that level of soft with Top position money.

If we had paid Julius what the Jags did and he got hurt and had two catches in his one game, people would be ripping Elway like crazy. I can't deny the guy's talent but he's obviously an injury concern, regardless of his motivation or lack there of. We can't keep everyone and there was no way he was getting top dollar from us. Julius would help in the red zone but he's not the answer to all of our problems

[Northman]

Why yes....yes it is.


See Shannon Sharpe and our SB runs.

In fact what helped us get to one in 2013?

JT is no Shannon Sharpe...... :lol:

[Northman]

Shannon played.though, a lot. In fact, he was even sighted blocking on occasion.

Al just flushed DenBronx down the toilet.

[Cugel]

I saw this earlier. Really interesting stuff. It's interesting to see, on a play by play basis, what we're dealing with. It seems like Manning is dealing with missed blocks or guys getting pushed back into him on every snap.

Well, it's still all Manning's fault. Everything is his fault. The OL can't block because he's washed up. :rolleyes:

[Cugel]

Yeah.. I keep hearing this. Hasn't held true, yet. We want to 'fill the role' with cheaper options, and the cheaper options have failed miserably, and our offensive output is 1/2 of just last year. We don't have anyone that threatens the field, and the only thing that some fans want to say is "but he cost too much." Sorry, I'm not buying into that BS because he was too valuable to this offense, and its showing in a GLARING, FLASHING LIGHTS, kinda way.

Well, they thought Julius Thomas couldn't block a shadow so they didn't even talk to his agent after the season ended. But, the TEs on this team are doing nothing but try and help with the blocking anyway. They can rarely even get them into a pattern. Owen Daniels had 2 catches today; Virgil Greene had none. Neither is any kind of factor in the offense.

And that's not an accident. They need to have max protect on almost every pass play or Peyton is on his back in under 2 seconds. In this game keeping extra guys in to block worked (sort of). Peyton wasn't sacked for the first time this season.

But, then it's Cleveland. Their defense is not exactly the 2013 Seahawks out there. Their run defense is by far the worst in football too, so running the ball against them today doesn't prove much. It's better than the alternative I guess - can't run against the worst run defense in the NFL officially means you can't block a sunbeam.

But, we'll see if they can run effectively against the Packers. If so, then we can point to some improvement in the horrible OL play. If not, and I suspect we'll see them revert to form when they're not playing the worst run defense in the NFL, we'll know that nothing is really going to help this OL except some better players.

They should hopefully be getting Sambrailo back, but then he's a rookie who was according to PFF one of the worst starting LTs in football while he was playing. He's entirely unlikely to have improved while sitting out games due to injury. We'll see.