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Denver Native (Carol)
10-13-2015, 06:06 PM
Rookies are expected to struggle in the NFL as they adjust to the pro game. Well, linebacker Shane Ray didn't quite get that luxury. With a defense as talented as the Broncos, if you don't play well, you don't play.

When he walks on the field on Sunday, he doesn't consider himself a rookie.

"That tag is taken away when you're thrown in the fire and your teammates expect a lot of you," Ray said. "I can't make an excuse if I mess up and say, "Oh well, it's because I'm a rookie.' "

Sacks in back-to-back games indicated how well Ray is learning.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_28964016/shane-ray-happy-increased-opportunities-broncos

DenBronx
10-13-2015, 06:12 PM
Excellent draft choice. Ware won't be around forever and having Ray helps us not miss a beat. Also adds in great rotation when needed.

Would love to see Miller, Ray and Ware all in at the same time alot more.

#unstoppable

NightTerror218
10-13-2015, 06:18 PM
Perfect fit for this system. Will replace Ware eventually.

Yashahla17
10-14-2015, 12:57 AM
Shawn merriman without the steroids.

TXBRONC
10-14-2015, 05:34 PM
I think it's possible for him to have between 8 and 10 sacks this year barring anything unforeseeable.

TXBRONC
10-14-2015, 05:42 PM
You know what's cool is Miller and Ware can both be off the field at the same freaking time and we still have a fierce pass rush with Barrett and Ray.

DenBronx
10-14-2015, 05:46 PM
You know what's cool is Miller and Ware can't both be off the field at the same freaking time and we still have a fierce pass rush with Barrett and Ray.

I think you meant can but yeah our backups are still among the leagues best. Even our middle linebackers are good too. Remember Elway talking about trading 1 or 2? I fully believe we could trade one before the deadline if not then this coming offseason we could. I think teams that need help are looking at our defense roster.

TXBRONC
10-14-2015, 05:54 PM
I think you meant can but yeah our backups are still among the leagues best. Even our middle linebackers are good too. Remember Elway talking about trading 1 or 2? I fully believe we could trade one before the deadline if not then this coming offseason we could. I think teams that need help are looking at our defense roster.

Thanks for catching that for me Den.

I don't remember Elway saying that. I'm not saying he didn't say it I'm just drawing a complete blank.

Joel
10-15-2015, 12:13 PM
Ray's done well, but I still wish our first pick had been an NFL-ready starting OT like I wanted, not an elite BACKUP LB. First round picks are for immediate starters, not someone to spell All Pros in the hopes they might BECOME an All Pro—in 2-3 years. If we do a trade, I hope it's for a player (about the only way to get any value trading players of ones own.) I doubt Houston would let Kubiak have Duane Brown back in exchange for Barrett and Latimer though.

underrated29
10-15-2015, 01:23 PM
Thanks for catching that for me Den.

I don't remember Elway saying that. I'm not saying he didn't say it I'm just drawing a complete blank.



Apparently he said it on an episode of Hard knocks or something. I took major shit for it because I too did not watch the episode and was commenting on Elways comments, that apparently the whole world knew about.

TXBRONC
10-15-2015, 01:30 PM
Apparently he said it on an episode of Hard knocks or something. I took major shit for it because I too did not watch the episode and was commenting on Elways comments, that apparently the whole world knew about.

I would having a hard time seeing Elway trading away his top pick in this draft. Denver would still have plenty of depth if Elway traded Barrett and other player but who can he get at this late date without getting fleeced?

tomjonesrocks
10-15-2015, 02:02 PM
I would having a hard time seeing Elway trading away his top pick in this draft.

I think speculation was Trevathan might have been on the block. But Elway might have just been saying that because he wanted the pick not a player in return.

TXBRONC
10-15-2015, 02:07 PM
I think speculation was Trevathan might have been on the block. But Elway might have just been saying that because he wanted the pick not a player in return.

Ok. From how this conversation was I thought people were meaning Ray or Barrett. Like I said it didn't seem likely that he would trade away Ray. Trevathan or Barrett would make sense because both of those guy could start for most teams.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-15-2015, 03:23 PM
I don't think Elway suggested he wanted to trade a lb. The other GM (probably Rick Smith) was likely telling Elway on the other end of the phone they had depth at LB, and Elway replied we had good depth at LB too.

I never took it to mean Elway was shopping one of our backers.

Slick
10-15-2015, 03:57 PM
Ray's done well, but I still wish our first pick had been an NFL-ready starting OT like I wanted, not an elite BACKUP LB. First round picks are for immediate starters, not someone to spell All Pros in the hopes they might BECOME an All Pro—in 2-3 years. If we do a trade, I hope it's for a player (about the only way to get any value trading players of ones own.) I doubt Houston would let Kubiak have Duane Brown back in exchange for Barrett and Latimer though.

The Ray pick looks like a good one by John. What about trading Clark for a 7th rounder? He was an NFL ready starting OT compared to any tackle on the roster at this point.

DenBronx
10-15-2015, 05:02 PM
Trading Clark for a 7th was stupid.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-15-2015, 05:13 PM
Let's not overstate Clark. He couldn't get on the field last year and got beat out by Harris this year.

DenBronx
10-15-2015, 05:19 PM
Broncos were playing him out of position. He plays LT, not guard.

These guys get hungry in camp and preseason then take a shit once they win the job. Harris has been awful and Clark played LT for us the year we went to the SB.

So I'll say it again. Trading Clark for a 7th was stupid.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-15-2015, 05:24 PM
Broncos were playing him out of position. He plays LT, not guard.

These guys get hungry in camp and preseason then take a shit once they win the job. Harris has been awful and Clark played LT for us the year we went to the SB.

So I'll say it again. Trading Clark for a 7th was stupid.

Wasn't he usually covered by a TE when they moved him to LT. I'm not buying it, if a dude can play LT in the NFL he sure as heck should be able to play RT.

DenBronx
10-15-2015, 05:31 PM
Broncos were playing him out of position. He plays LT, not guard.

These guys get hungry in camp and preseason then take a shit once they win the job. Harris has been awful and Clark played LT for us the year we went to the SB.

So I'll say it again. Trading Clark for a 7th was stupid.

Wasn't he usually covered by a TE when they moved him to LT. I'm not buying it, if a dude can play LT in the NFL he sure as heck should be able to play RT.

You mean in 2013 when he played LT? Our TE JT that can't block? Lol

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-15-2015, 05:53 PM
You mean in 2013 when he played LT? Our TE JT that can't block? Lol

Good point! :laugh:

TXBRONC
10-15-2015, 06:08 PM
Broncos were playing him out of position. He plays LT, not guard.

These guys get hungry in camp and preseason then take a shit once they win the job. Harris has been awful and Clark played LT for us the year we went to the SB.

So I'll say it again. Trading Clark for a 7th was stupid.

Clark wasn't that good Den. He was awful as a run blocker that's why lost the job as starting right tackle last year.

DenBronx
10-15-2015, 07:36 PM
Broncos were playing him out of position. He plays LT, not guard.

These guys get hungry in camp and preseason then take a shit once they win the job. Harris has been awful and Clark played LT for us the year we went to the SB.

So I'll say it again. Trading Clark for a 7th was stupid.

Clark wasn't that good Den. He was awful as a run blocker that's why lost the job as starting right tackle last year.


Maybe he wasnt a good run blocker but he was good in pass protection. Something Manning really needs right now. Stick to what you're good at and we were good at passing, not running. Now we dont have either.

Sorry to hijack the thread. It's about Shane Ray.

Joel
10-16-2015, 05:29 PM
The Ray pick looks like a good one by John.
Drafting a BACKUP in the FIRST ROUND can't be a good pick. No matter how elite a starter that backup may BECOME in YEARS later, the team has those intervening years to find an immediate replacement for its departing starter: Meanwhile, it has other needs ALREADY immediate, and thus far more urgent (in our case, the offensive line.)


What about trading Clark for a 7th rounder? He was an NFL ready starting OT compared to any tackle on the roster at this point.
Clark's no NFL-ready starter compared to ANYONE: He was a backup before Cladys injury, after which he played poorly (I realize everyone raves about his 2013 season but, again: STRIP-SACKS IN THREE STRAIGHT GAMES.) When Clady came back and Franklin moved inside to replace Beadles, Clark was the default starting RT for all of, what, 3 games before benched for a PS guy? We got a 7th rounder for him because Houston wants to use him as what he is: A BACKUP for REAL starters Duane Brown and Derek Newton.


Maybe he wasnt a good run blocker but he was good in pass protection. Something Manning really needs right now. Stick to what you're good at and we were good at passing, not running. Now we dont have either.
No, he wasn't: STRIP-SACKS IN THREE STRAIGHT GAMES, all of which scored opponent points. This isn't like with Kuper, a marginal run blocker who kept the starting job because he was our best inside pass blocker; Clark's just BAD. He didn't lose the starting RT job last year (just) because of poor run blocking, but because he gave up free shots on his QB even with TE help. Speaking of which...


Wasn't he usually covered by a TE when they moved him to LT. I'm not buying it, if a dude can play LT in the NFL he sure as heck should be able to play RT.
You mean in 2013 when he played LT? Our TE JT that can't block? Lol

Yeah, in 2013, when we BENCHED JT after Clarks second strip-sack in as many games, and stuck Dreesen in there to help out, incidentally catching a couple 4th down passes (one in the end zone) along the way. I'm grateful we got a 7th rounder for Clark, because even that's more than he's worth. My only regret is that my second favorite team provided that overpayment, but I'd rather he waste roster space on my second favorite than absolute favorite team.

What I'd REALLY prefer is spending our 1st pick on an "NFL-ready starting OT" and our 2nd on a promising OLB to develop into Wares successor in a year or two. Y'know, instead of drafting someone to succeed Ware NOW, then someone to succeed Franklin in 2016-7 (even though we cut him in 2015.) Teams shouldn't take the "best player available" unless NONE of their players are good, and certainly not when the best player ISN'T available (only the 24th best.)

NO ONE should spend a FIRST ROUND pick on someone to DEVELOP into a possible starter a few years from now. There are plenty of guys like that in the 2nd and 3rd round, not only now, but next year and the year after that. If we lose (or don't even REACH) the SB, it won't be because we don't have someone good enough to spell Ware, but because we don't have a STARTER who can keep blitzers off Mannings neck >2 seconds and open holes for Anderson and Hillman. Ray's already playing well, but that's not the point; Mariota's playing well, too, but there's a reason we didn't try to trade up for him.

NightTerror218
10-16-2015, 06:33 PM
Love the Ray pick. Shows that you don't force a pick based on need but grab a quality player for future of team. Ray will be a starter, question is how long Ware will be around for.

Yashahla17
10-16-2015, 06:37 PM
Saying the Ray pick was a bad pick when he's clearly going to be a star is very strange. You don't pass up a elite pass rusher and run defender to reach on a o line.

Joel
10-16-2015, 07:18 PM
Saying the Ray pick was a bad pick when he's clearly going to be a star is very strange. You don't pass up a elite pass rusher and run defender to reach on a o line.
First round picks aren't for guys who are "going to be" stars: They're for IMMEDIATE starters; you've got 2nd and 3rd round picks for talented but raw players good coaching will EVENTUALLY make stars. The last draft had a crapton of quality OTs; none were "reaches." Unless you mean "some draft picks are busts," in which case EVERY PLAYER EVER DRAFTED was a "reach" because any could've bombed. Ryan Leaf wasn't a "reach," he was a bust: Huge difference, and Ray could've just as easily gone the same route (still could, in fact.)

In terms of guys with the talent and skills, who were rated 1st round picks, there were plenty of non-reach OTs left at our pick, and we manifestly needed one a HELL of a lot better than we need a starting 2017 OLB we could've found in the 2nd or 3rd, or NEXT years 2nd or 3rd, or the FOLLOWING years 1st, 2nd or 3rd. We needed a solid backup OLB who might become good enough to succeed Ware, but spending a 1st rounder on that is overspending. Again, we won't lose or miss the SB because we were short a BACKUP, but losing/missing it because we were short a STARTING OT looks like a real possibility.

Joel
10-16-2015, 07:32 PM
Love the Ray pick. Shows that you don't force a pick based on need but grab a quality player for future of team. Ray will be a starter, question is how long Ware will be around for.
The future is now, and drafting the best player "available" when he's ALREADY LONG GONE and the sole choice is the best player LEFT is a mistake. If we were in rebuild mode with a top ten draft pick in each round, sure: We'd have our pick of everyone (or nearly everyone) and need help EVERYWHERE, so as long as our scouts did their job we'd be guaranteed an elite player and huge immediate improvement WHATEVER his position—we'd even get a shot at TWO, because we'd have another top 50 pick in the 2nd round.

That's not where we are, and drafting one of a drafts top talents to SIT behind TWO ALL PROS is a textbook example of why good teams can't afford drafting the Best Player Left After Two Dozen Teams Get Their Choice. Not quite the posterchild, because Rays arrest scared away so many teams we could still get a very good player, not just "best of the rest." But in terms of getting 1st round VALUE: He only plays if Ware/Miller's tired or hurt; that's valuable, but not nearly as valuable as a 1st round pick. It's the kind of value we could've gotten in the 2nd round, when we actually DID "reach" on a STARTING OT.

Spending 1st round picks on developmental BACKUPS but 2nd round picks on critical STARTERS is bad drafting whether the teams a contender, dog or anything between the two. It's not even like 3-4 OLBs are soooo much more valuable than OTs; they're both at a premium: We just prioritized the position where ALL our starters are All Pros rather than the one where we had an All Pro and TBA. Then the All Pro goes on IR and we have a full complement of All Pro OLBs PLUS another waiting for his shot, but bupkis keeping their counterparts off our 39-year-old QBs surgically repaired neck. Bad luck, or bad preparation?

Yashahla17
10-16-2015, 07:39 PM
Dude your making shit up. You think all first rounders are immediate stars when that's just false. Damn near 80% of first round picks don't do a thing in there rookie years. Takes many of them at least a couple years. And even then Damn near half are bust. So what are you talking about.

Yashahla17
10-16-2015, 07:44 PM
Dude they had clady. Drafted sambrello. Drafted max Garcia. Signed Vasquez a year ago. Signed Mathis. The o line has been addressed. The talent is young. If you think there was a better player at 22 than a top 5 pick had he not got busted for his friends weed then your tripping lol. Makes absolutely no sense. Top 5 talent vs reaching on a development o line men? Sheesh I'm glad your not making the calls.

Yashahla17
10-16-2015, 07:48 PM
Nobody in there right minds going to turn down a top 5 talent for a maybe in the 2nd or 3rd. Smh. Your just doing more of your pandering and excuses for manning crying about the o line. Online won't fix manning dead arm. Should a drafted a arm for manning.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-16-2015, 08:17 PM
Love the Ray pick. Shows that you don't force a pick based on need but grab a quality player for future of team. Ray will be a starter, question is how long Ware will be around for.

Exactly, that's what Seattle did a few years ago with the kid from West Virginia. He platooned in their Nascar package, and was starting by year two. Picking Ray was a great move, opposed to reaching for someone based on a need.

Joel
10-16-2015, 08:20 PM
Dude your making shit up. You think all first rounders are immediate stars when that's just false. Damn near 80% of first round picks don't do a thing in there rookie years. Takes many of them at least a couple years. And even then Damn near half are bust. So what are you talking about.
Even "developmental" QUARTERBACKS don't go in the 1st. You show me a guy drafted in the 1st round who's not starting by seasons end and I'll show you a guy with a lot of "bust" talk swirling around him; Ray'll probably be the exception simply because it's hard to crack the starting lineup behind a couple All Pros, but that's the ONLY reason. If "near half are busts" (I'd like to see some stats on 50% of 1st rounders busting) why would a team spend a 1st round pick to BACK UP a full set of All Pros when the guy's likely as not a bust anyway, especially when we had NOTHING BUT AIR at RT?


Dude they had clady.
They only had ONE of him though, and TWO starting OT spots, without even a decent BACKUP for the second. Then Clady got hurt and they suddenly had NOTHING. Except a 3rd OLB.


Drafted sambrello.
Yeah: In the SECOND round, and 59th overall, after EIGHT other OTs: Do you honestly think the drafts 9th best OT good enough to start immediately? Hasn't looked it so far. Oh, and that "reach" you mentioned earlier? A lot of analysts say that's SAMBRAILO, claiming he only went as high as he did because his talents fit the ZBS and he can be coached up. That'd be great: If we could wait a few years instead of STARTING him as the blindside protector of a 39-year-old immobile QB with two fused vertebrae.


Drafted max Garcia.
In the 4TH SUPPLEMENTAL round (133rd overall,) and he's not an OT regardless, but a C; he couldn't keep Shane Ray away from a QB, let alone DeMarcus Ware or Von Miller.


Signed Vasquez a year ago.
Two years ago, and it was a great signing, but, like Clady, there's only ONE of him and, like Garcia, he doesn't play OT (except when TOTAL LACK of legit OTs forces him to play out of position, and badly.)


Signed Mathis.
Not before the draft they didn't, and he doesn't play outside either.


The o line has been addressed. The talent is young. If you think there was a better player at 22 than a top 5 pick had he not got busted for his friends weed then your tripping lol. Makes absolutely no sense. Top 5 talent vs reaching on a development o line men? Sheesh I'm glad your not making the calls.
Who (apart from you) said anything about "reaching on a development o line men"? Just among OTs, they were TWO OF THE TOP FIVE picks, and, while those were obviously out of our reach at #23 (unless we spent a lot to trade up) many people here were screaming for Ogbuehi (taken 2 picks before we took Ray) and Humphries (taken IMMEDIATELY after Ray.) Here's NFL.coms scouting report on Humphries: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/d.j.-humphries?id=2552626

Notice there's nothing in there to the effect of "dumb/dependent enough to get busted for week just days before an NFL draft that would've left him and his family set for life." Drafting a potential Maurice Clarett Jr. isn't a "reach"? At a position where we were already stacked, while we had NOTHING at RT, and soon had nothing at EITHER OT spot. As we went into a season with a 39-year-old immobile surgically repaired QB. But hey, we'll have a star OLB in a couple years—or a bust; I'm told it's 50/50, even for guys who weren't already "busted" once.

TXBRONC
10-16-2015, 08:25 PM
Love the Ray pick. Shows that you don't force a pick based on need but grab a quality player for future of team. Ray will be a starter, question is how long Ware will be around for.

Exactly.

Joel
10-16-2015, 08:39 PM
Exactly, that's what Seattle did a few years ago with the kid from West Virginia. He platooned in their Nascar package, and was starting by year two. Picking Ray was a great move, opposed to reaching for someone based on a need.
If that's Bruce Irvin, Seattle was rebuilding its LB corps, so didn't have a couple All Pros: They had a second year starter (K.J. Wright) and a mediocre guy in his last NFL season (LeRoy Hill.) Irvin started most of the next season, and Ray would likely do the same IF Ware retires like Hill did, but that's about the ONLY way it'll happen. Seattle also had two starting OTs in place (one of whom had his only Pro Bowl season the same year they drafted Irvin.) Seattle didn't stockpile yet another elite LB in Irvin: They filled a serious need with a quality player.

Joel
10-16-2015, 08:45 PM
Nobody in there right minds going to turn down a top 5 talent for a maybe in the 2nd or 3rd. Smh. Your just doing more of your pandering and excuses for manning crying about the o line. Online won't fix manning dead arm. Should a drafted a arm for manning.
You're new here, so don't know I've been screaming about our awful line since before we HAD Manning. In fact, from the moment we signed him I said he couldn't win SBs single-handedly (I believe my exact words were "he's got 2 or MAYBE 3 years before he retires or makes us all wish he had") and we didn't have a championship TEAM to put around him: Guess what was my Exhibit A. I also said when he proved too human to be a one-man offense everyone cheering for the signing and pre-ordering their 2012 SB tickets would call him a choking bum in 2015; was I wrong?

Dzone
10-16-2015, 09:29 PM
You're new here, so don't know I've been screaming about our awful line since before we HAD Manning. In fact, from the moment we signed him I said he couldn't win SBs single-handedly (I believe my exact words were "he's got 2 or MAYBE 3 years before he retires or makes us all wish he had") and we didn't have a championship TEAM to put around him: Guess what was my Exhibit A. I also said when he proved too human to be a one-man offense everyone cheering for the signing and pre-ordering their 2012 SB tickets would call him a choking bum in 2015; was I wrong?

Say what? Manning, a choking bum? Says who?

TXBRONC
10-17-2015, 12:16 PM
Say what? Manning, a choking bum? Says who?

The only one calling him a choking bum is Joel.

Joel
10-17-2015, 12:56 PM
The only one calling him a choking bum is Joel.
Right; all the "best regular season QB" and "can't win in January with Manning throwing 50 times/game, and haven't" talk is stuff I, alone, invented last week.

Canmore
10-17-2015, 02:22 PM
Dude they had clady. Drafted sambrello. Drafted max Garcia. Signed Vasquez a year ago. Signed Mathis. The o line has been addressed. The talent is young. If you think there was a better player at 22 than a top 5 pick had he not got busted for his friends weed then your tripping lol. Makes absolutely no sense. Top 5 talent vs reaching on a development o line men? Sheesh I'm glad your not making the calls.

I'm even more glad you are not either.

Yashahla17
10-17-2015, 02:31 PM
I'm even more glad you are not either.

Yeah I bet because your Sig would be finished just like manning.

Canmore
10-17-2015, 03:05 PM
Yeah I bet because your Sig would be finished just like manning.

Clever. I'm in awe of your posts. What words of wisdom come next.