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View Full Version : Remember Waaaay Back (i.e Last MONTH) When It Was All "Let Peyton Be Peyton"?



Joel
10-12-2015, 07:28 PM
We've got a few dozen threads demanding we bench/cut/execute Peyton for NOT being what fans define as "Peyton." There's more maintaining the annual tradition of saying our current starting RB is so slow, fragile and unable to find holes we must bench him, as when he GOT the starting job because the last guy was slow, fragile and unable to find holes. I felt we needed at least one on the real problem:

THE "OFFENSIVE LINE"

New coach, complex new system, all of ONE returning starter (which, for cooperation and coordination, is as good as NONE) and TWO starters getting the first NFL snaps of their CAREERS.

Forget about Manning, Oz, Tebow, Rodgers or ANYONE passing well behind THAT, and Anderson, Hillman, Thompson or Barry Sanders running well behind it. If anyone wants to see Oz turned into the next panicky erratic David Carr permanently scared of his own shadow, or Hillman become the next limp-kneed plodding Willis McGahee, by all means, let's rush them out there to be pummelled right now. Otherwise, be glad we have a first ballot HoF QB to make the best of a Swiss cheese line that's been hopeless for at least half a decade, and grateful we have coaches who can (eventually) fix it.

CrazyHorse
10-12-2015, 10:26 PM
...but, but, but teams are stacking the line of scrimmage because Manning's noodle are can't throw down field.

Joel
10-12-2015, 10:41 PM
...but, but, but teams are stacking the line of scrimmage because Manning's noodle are can't throw down field.
Yeah, just as they did when his noodle arm threw 55 TDs in 2013 but we only averaged more than 11 other teams on the ground. Probably because Moreno was slow, danced too much, couldn't find holes and was made of porcelain, just like Henry, Buckhalter, McGahee, Hillman, Ball, Anderson and whatever poor dumb SOB gets that thankless job next. If only we let Peyton be Peyton.... :(

VonDoom
10-12-2015, 10:50 PM
I don't think this is as much of an either/or argument as you are making it (and not just you - all the anti-Manning threads suffer from the same basic issue. I haven't even looked in the Tebow thread). Manning has unquestionably declined this year. Our o-line is not good. Chicken, egg, whatever. There is no one simple fix for any of this right now. I will say that if the line improves, that might help Manning's confidence and make him make better decisions when he's not afraid of being destroyed. That is something that MAY come with time during this season and in the meantime, I'll take being 5-0 and dealing with this problem.

Simple Jaded
10-12-2015, 10:52 PM
I almost feel guilty that I'm enjoying this season way more than most.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-12-2015, 10:54 PM
I almost feel guilty that I'm enjoying this season way more than most.

I'm loving it to. I just find the offense to be painful to watch. I keep waiting for Manning to turn back the clock, but it hasn't happened , yet.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-12-2015, 10:55 PM
I don't think this is as much of an either/or argument as you are making it (and not just you - all the anti-Manning threads suffer from the same basic issue. I haven't even looked in the Tebow thread). Manning has unquestionably declined this year. Our o-line is not good. Chicken, egg, whatever. There is no one simple fix for any of this right now. I will say that if the line improves, that might help Manning's confidence and make him make better decisions when he's not afraid of being destroyed. That is something that MAY come with time during this season and in the meantime, I'll take being 5-0 and dealing with this problem.

Thank you. The either/or argument grows tiresome.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-12-2015, 10:57 PM
Yeah, just as they did when his noodle arm threw 55 TDs in 2013 but we only averaged more than 11 other teams on the ground. Probably because Moreno was slow, danced too much, couldn't find holes and was made of porcelain, just like Henry, Buckhalter, McGahee, Hillman, Ball, Anderson and whatever poor dumb SOB gets that thankless job next. If only we let Peyton be Peyton.... :(

What are you talking about Joel? Manning consistently faced 6 man boxes the year he threw 55 touchdowns. That's a nickel defense. It in no way qualifies as 'stacking the box'. It's quite the opposite in fact.

Simple Jaded
10-12-2015, 11:21 PM
I'm loving it to. I just find the offense to be painful to watch. I keep waiting for Manning to turn back the clock, but it hasn't happened , yet.

I think those things too.

Ravage!!!
10-12-2015, 11:24 PM
Yeah, just as they did when his noodle arm threw 55 TDs in 2013 but we only averaged more than 11 other teams on the ground. Probably because Moreno was slow, danced too much, couldn't find holes and was made of porcelain, just like Henry, Buckhalter, McGahee, Hillman, Ball, Anderson and whatever poor dumb SOB gets that thankless job next. If only we let Peyton be Peyton.... :(

They absolutely were not "stacking the box" when we had DT, Decker, Welker, and JT. I just don't get how you don't know how wrong you are on this.

Yashahla17
10-13-2015, 12:43 AM
My real joy will start when manning is finished at qb via benching. But injury which is certain to happen will come first since elway dont have the guts. Our oline going forward into next year or late in the year once we get garcia sambrello vasquez and schofield reps together the oline will be fine. But mannings arm wont.

Yashahla17
10-13-2015, 12:47 AM
They absolutely were not "stacking the box" when we had DT, Decker, Welker, and JT. I just don't get how you don't know how wrong you are on this.

Nobody stacked the box because they'd get there ass burned deep consistently. Manning would constantly hit the 35-49 yard stuff. He cant do it anymore.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-13-2015, 12:48 AM
Nobody stacked the box because they'd get there ass burned deep consistently. Manning would constantly hit the 35-49 yard stuff. He cant do it anymore.
Don't say that. It's grounds for treason.

Yashahla17
10-13-2015, 12:52 AM
35-40 yard stuff. Didnt want to make it seem like manning had the 50 yard canon like some qbs. But hed burn teams ass for 35-40 yard accurate throws consistently. It was almost effortless. But its over.

Buff
10-13-2015, 01:12 PM
Manning makes life miserable for an already bad o-line because we can't move the pocket with him, can't run misdirection, can't evade the pass rush, can't run plays from under center, can't run bootlegs, etc. The o-line is essentially playing with one arm behind their backs from the start. Then you layer in the fact that teams aren't afraid of him beating them deep, and it becomes virtually impossible to have an effective gameplan with this offense as currently designed.

tripp
10-13-2015, 01:19 PM
Manning makes life miserable for an already bad o-line because we can't move the pocket with him, can't run misdirection, can't evade the pass rush, can't run plays from under center, can't run bootlegs, etc. The o-line is essentially playing with one arm behind their backs from the start. Then you layer in the fact that teams aren't afraid of him beating them deep, and it becomes virtually impossible to have an effective gameplan with this offense as currently designed.

Alright, so let's throw in Osweiler then?

Northman
10-13-2015, 01:30 PM
They absolutely were not "stacking the box" when we had DT, Decker, Welker, and JT. I just don't get how you don't know how wrong you are on this.

Are you REALLY that shocked?

Northman
10-13-2015, 01:31 PM
Manning makes life miserable for an already bad o-line because we can't move the pocket with him, can't run misdirection, can't evade the pass rush, can't run plays from under center, can't run bootlegs, etc. The o-line is essentially playing with one arm behind their backs from the start. Then you layer in the fact that teams aren't afraid of him beating them deep, and it becomes virtually impossible to have an effective gameplan with this offense as currently designed.

Bingo.

Northman
10-13-2015, 01:34 PM
Alright, so let's throw in Osweiler then?

You cant, for the very same reasons they couldnt bench Tebow when we went on the winning streak in 2011. Until the QB totally collapses and defense cant bail him out you ride the storm. I personally think we would be better with Oz in there because of the very things Buff mentions when it comes to the system and attributes that Oz brings that Manning does not have. But, the team is in between a rock and the hard place because the defense is so good they dont need to rock the boat in its current state.

tripp
10-13-2015, 01:35 PM
You cant, for the very same reasons they couldnt bench Tebow when we went on the winning streak in 2011. Until the QB totally collapses and defense cant bail him out you ride the storm. I personally think we would be better with Oz in there because of the very things Buff mentions when it comes to the system and attributes that Oz brings that Manning does not have. But, the team is in between a rock and the hard place because the defense is so good they dont need to rock the boat in its current state.

I think exposing a QB who hasn't had any real football snaps to an offensive line this poor, would ruin his development.

Valar Morghulis
10-13-2015, 02:20 PM
Remember how fun the 2011 season was....i think 2015 might be just as wild!

VonDoom
10-13-2015, 02:27 PM
Manning makes life miserable for an already bad o-line because we can't move the pocket with him, can't run misdirection, can't evade the pass rush, can't run plays from under center, can't run bootlegs, etc. The o-line is essentially playing with one arm behind their backs from the start. Then you layer in the fact that teams aren't afraid of him beating them deep, and it becomes virtually impossible to have an effective gameplan with this offense as currently designed.

I think some of the narrative surrounding "stacking the box" is becoming overrated. I saw Andrew Mason Tweet this in response to someone this morning:

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 13h13 hours ago

Andrew Mason Retweeted Doug Nelson

And yet only three teams have completed more passes of 15 or more yards in the last four weeks than the Broncos.

... so we're throwing deep (as the NFL defines it) and completing them so are teams really still "stacking the box" against us? I haven't looked at the film enough to say for sure.

As far as being mobile, Manning has never been that guy. He was a statue when we brought him in here but he didn't struggle like this. He's always had the ability to make mediocre/bad o-lines look good, and that's not been the case this year. I wonder if that expectation factored into the personnel decisions about the line this year; if so, that was a bad judgment call by Elway. Also, Wilson is the most mobile QB in the league and he still gets sacked more than anyone behind one of the few lines worse than ours. Mobility does not necessarily equal line success.

Ravage!!!
10-13-2015, 02:29 PM
You cant, for the very same reasons they couldnt bench Tebow when we went on the winning streak in 2011. Until the QB totally collapses and defense cant bail him out you ride the storm. I personally think we would be better with Oz in there because of the very things Buff mentions when it comes to the system and attributes that Oz brings that Manning does not have. But, the team is in between a rock and the hard place because the defense is so good they dont need to rock the boat in its current state.

Plus.. you don't bench a HoF QB that is within 4 games of reaching the milestone of throwing for the most yardage in NFL history.... no matter what.

NightTrainLayne
10-13-2015, 03:32 PM
Manning makes life miserable for an already bad o-line because we can't move the pocket with him, can't run misdirection, can't evade the pass rush, can't run plays from under center, can't run bootlegs, etc. The o-line is essentially playing with one arm behind their backs from the start. Then you layer in the fact that teams aren't afraid of him beating them deep, and it becomes virtually impossible to have an effective gameplan with this offense as currently designed.

What's the opposite word for "synergy"? Whatever it is, it is this O-line and Manning together.

NightTerror218
10-13-2015, 03:37 PM
I think some of the narrative surrounding "stacking the box" is becoming overrated. I saw Andrew Mason Tweet this in response to someone this morning:

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 13h13 hours ago

Andrew Mason Retweeted Doug Nelson

And yet only three teams have completed more passes of 15 or more yards in the last four weeks than the Broncos.

... so we're throwing deep (as the NFL defines it) and completing them so are teams really still "stacking the box" against us? I haven't looked at the film enough to say for sure.

As far as being mobile, Manning has never been that guy. He was a statue when we brought him in here but he didn't struggle like this. He's always had the ability to make mediocre/bad o-lines look good, and that's not been the case this year. I wonder if that expectation factored into the personnel decisions about the line this year; if so, that was a bad judgment call by Elway. Also, Wilson is the most mobile QB in the league and he still gets sacked more than anyone behind one of the few lines worse than ours. Mobility does not necessarily equal line success.

15 yards is not deep in my book. I have not had all the games on TV but watched some steams. I noticed the SB was just about an addition LB. The FS was not that much deeper.

This is exactly what chancellor did in SB. Blowing up crossing routes and eliminating the middle.

Notice how many of passes are outside. Rarely does he throw across the middle. Most are Sanders or Thomas on the edges or their back ups on the edges.

Northman
10-13-2015, 03:43 PM
I think exposing a QB who hasn't had any real football snaps to an offensive line this poor, would ruin his development.

Probably why they wanted to keep Peyton for another year. Maybe they figure Manning will be quick enough with his decisions and if the team can keep winning that it will give some confidence to the young line in preparation for Oz (or any other QB) going forward.

Northman
10-13-2015, 03:44 PM
Remember how fun the 2011 season was....i think 2015 might be just as wild!

Already has been only its been the defense making the crazy plays instead of the QB this time.

Northman
10-13-2015, 03:48 PM
Plus.. you don't bench a HoF QB that is within 4 games of reaching the milestone of throwing for the most yardage in NFL history.... no matter what.

Well, if this team was 0-5 im not sure keeping him in there just to set records is good management. I think Manning is fortunate that the team is still winning despite his issues and it allows him to keep pursuing the record. But if the team was struggling to get wins i would be pissed if the team kept a QB in there just to try and set records.

I Eat Staples
10-13-2015, 03:54 PM
What's the opposite word for "synergy"? Whatever it is, it is this O-line and Manning together.

I think anti-synergy works.

VonDoom
10-13-2015, 03:54 PM
Probably why they wanted to keep Peyton for another year. Maybe they figure Manning will be quick enough with his decisions and if the team can keep winning that it will give some confidence to the young line in preparation for Oz (or any other QB) going forward.

Yeah, I agree with this. Like I said, Manning's quick decision making and release has masked a lot of o-line problems in the past. If he isn't making good decisions, that's going to lead to problems on numerous levels.

Northman
10-13-2015, 03:59 PM
Yeah, I agree with this. Like I said, Manning's quick decision making and release has masked a lot of o-line problems in the past. If he isn't making good decisions, that's going to lead to problems on numerous levels.

Well hopefully it will still be enough to at least get back to the SB. Not sure that will happen as the running game isnt there and the TE issue is bigger than i thought it would be initially. But, considering just last year Daniels had played well im not sure how much of it is really on him or on Manning just not being accurate enough. Hard to say right now.

elsid13
10-13-2015, 04:09 PM
It not throwing deep that is the problem (that a timing issues). The problem is that he can not make throw to the sideline (that true NFL arm strength) allowing defense to crowd the middle of the field. Which clogs up the running and passing lanes.

Buff
10-13-2015, 04:36 PM
I think some of the narrative surrounding "stacking the box" is becoming overrated. I saw Andrew Mason Tweet this in response to someone this morning:

Andrew Mason ‏@MaseDenver 13h13 hours ago

Andrew Mason Retweeted Doug Nelson

And yet only three teams have completed more passes of 15 or more yards in the last four weeks than the Broncos.

... so we're throwing deep (as the NFL defines it) and completing them so are teams really still "stacking the box" against us? I haven't looked at the film enough to say for sure.

As far as being mobile, Manning has never been that guy. He was a statue when we brought him in here but he didn't struggle like this. He's always had the ability to make mediocre/bad o-lines look good, and that's not been the case this year. I wonder if that expectation factored into the personnel decisions about the line this year; if so, that was a bad judgment call by Elway. Also, Wilson is the most mobile QB in the league and he still gets sacked more than anyone behind one of the few lines worse than ours. Mobility does not necessarily equal line success.

That 15 yard pass stat by Mason insults everyone's intelligence who has actually watched the games. Not only is a 15 yard pass not a deep ball - and anyone with functioning eyes can see that he is struggling to deliver the ball with any velocity - but we have two WRs who are elite at running after the catch. The idea that someone would latch onto that and actually try to pass it off as proof of Manning being an effective deep passer is just delusional. It's nonsensical. Anyone who even gives it a second of consideration is fooling themselves.

VonDoom
10-13-2015, 05:02 PM
That 15 yard pass stat by Mason insults everyone's intelligence who has actually watched the games. Not only is a 15 yard pass not a deep ball - and anyone with functioning eyes can see that he is struggling to deliver the ball with any velocity - but we have two WRs who are elite at running after the catch. The idea that someone would latch onto that and actually try to pass it off as proof of Manning being an effective deep passer is just delusional. It's nonsensical. Anyone who even gives it a second of consideration is fooling themselves.

Any statistical analysis of passes considers 15+ yards to be "deep" - that's why I qualified it with NFL standard. I agree that those aren't deep balls necessarily, but that's usually how they're divided. Of course, he doesn't specify "in the air" which is the real measure of a deep pass.

Also, Alex Smith is known as Captain Checkdown for a reason. No one is afraid of being beaten by him deep. Yet the Chiefs run the ball well. I know Charles is elite, but even Knile Davis would look like Barry Sanders in our offense. Is their line better than ours? Don't teams stack the box against KC? All I'm saying is that narrative isn't always accurate

Ravage!!!
10-13-2015, 05:09 PM
Well, if this team was 0-5 im not sure keeping him in there just to set records is good management. I think Manning is fortunate that the team is still winning despite his issues and it allows him to keep pursuing the record. But if the team was struggling to get wins i would be pissed if the team kept a QB in there just to try and set records.

You can say that...but if Manning is that close to setting the TOP record for passers in the NFL... you just do NOT sit him. No matter what. If we are 0-5, then this team isn't going anywhere, anyway. So you let Manning play. Call it porr management if you wish, but it would be pretty classless of the Broncos to do anything else.

Northman
10-13-2015, 05:20 PM
You can say that...but if Manning is that close to setting the TOP record for passers in the NFL... you just do NOT sit him. No matter what. If we are 0-5, then this team isn't going anywhere, anyway. So you let Manning play. Call it porr management if you wish, but it would be pretty classless of the Broncos to do anything else.

I dont know, i guess we just have to disagree on that depending on how the team was doing. To force a guy to play for records is pretty selfish to the rest of the team and fans in my opinion. Im more concerned about winning ballgames rather than personal stats. But maybe thats just me.

Ravage!!!
10-13-2015, 06:26 PM
I dont know, i guess we just have to disagree on that depending on how the team was doing. To force a guy to play for records is pretty selfish to the rest of the team and fans in my opinion. Im more concerned about winning ballgames rather than personal stats. But maybe thats just me.

Would you be forcing him? You don't think the fans want to be at the stadium when Peyton sets that record in a Bronco Uniform? You don't think the players want to be on the field with Manning when he sets that record? You think THEY honestly want to take him off the field before he sets that record? I'd bet my paycheck that these guys look up to Peyton enough to never want to do that.

Sometimes, you have to look outside of the "just do whatever it takes." Manning has earned the right to be on the field, and he's earned the right to make that run for that record. Taking him out of the lineup, would really REALLY be classless. Especially for an iconic athlete like Peyton Manning. Would You really want to be the guy that was known for pulling Peyton Manning out of the lineup just games before setting the all-time record? Do you think Elway would, in ANY way, want to be associated with that kind of move?

I believe respect still has a place in the game of football, and giving Manning the kind of respect to allow him to finish the season on his terms, is the absolute best thing to do.

NightTerror218
10-13-2015, 06:28 PM
Would you be forcing him?

I think, that sometimes, you have to look outside of the "just do whatever it takes." Manning has earned the right to be on the field, and he's earned the right to make that run for that record. Taking him out of the lineup, would really REALLY be classless. Especially for an iconic athlete like Peyton Manning. Would You really want to be the guy that was known for pulling Peyton Manning out of the lineup just games before setting the all-time record? Do you think Elway would, in ANY way, want to be associated with that kind of move?

I believe respect still has a place in the game of football, and giving Manning the kind of respect to allow him to finish the season on his terms, is the absolute best thing to do.

You keep him in, can't bench Manning that all there is. He is Peyton ****ING MANNING.

He needs time in new offense and OL needs time to gel. It will take time. How much time is up to kubiak.

Northman
10-13-2015, 06:32 PM
Would you be forcing him? You don't think the fans want to be at the stadium when Peyton sets that record in a Bronco Uniform? You don't think the players want to be on the field with Manning when he sets that record? You think THEY honestly want to take him off the field before he sets that record? I'd bet my paycheck that these guys look up to Peyton enough to never want to do that.

Sometimes, you have to look outside of the "just do whatever it takes." Manning has earned the right to be on the field, and he's earned the right to make that run for that record. Taking him out of the lineup, would really REALLY be classless. Especially for an iconic athlete like Peyton Manning. Would You really want to be the guy that was known for pulling Peyton Manning out of the lineup just games before setting the all-time record? Do you think Elway would, in ANY way, want to be associated with that kind of move?

I believe respect still has a place in the game of football, and giving Manning the kind of respect to allow him to finish the season on his terms, is the absolute best thing to do.

I wouldnt have a problem with it if i had to look at the bigger picture. If i had Sorgi as a backup and no young QB to groom i would consider leaving Manning in. But, because there are other things that need to be done with this team beyond Manning i would most certainly pull the plug no matter what the backlash. The other thing is, you have to consider Manning's health. If he was playing like ass and was unable to really do the things that made him great in the first place and you left him on the field and he got seriously injured would you feel good about it knowing that you left him in when you shouldnt have?

I guess my point is, i would rather lose the respect of Manning rather than have to face his family if he got crushed and paralyzed because i let him play to long when i knew his time was up.

Ravage!!!
10-13-2015, 06:40 PM
I wouldnt have a problem with it if i had to look at the bigger picture. If i had Sorgi as a backup and no young QB to groom i would consider leaving Manning in. But, because there are other things that need to be done with this team beyond Manning i would most certainly pull the plug no matter what the backlash. The other thing is, you have to consider Manning's health. If he was playing like ass and was unable to really do the things that made him great in the first place and you left him on the field and he got seriously injured would you feel good about it knowing that you left him in when you shouldnt have?

I guess my point is, i would rather lose the respect of Manning rather than have to face his family if he got crushed and paralyzed because i let him play to long when i knew his time was up.

Now you are moving into territories that aren't present. Manning isn't crippled on the field, or in dangers. No one is "forcing" him to play.

I don't think you would make the decision to pull him if you were in teh same spot that Kubiak is in. I think you would know that you would lose the locker room and all respect of your players if you did, and I don't think you would risk that kind of situation. Keeping the locker room is so important in the NFL, and pulling a respected vet like that..... would be pretty bad as far as that goes.


Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Northman
10-13-2015, 06:43 PM
Now you are moving into territories that aren't present. Manning isn't crippled on the field, or in dangers. No one is "forcing" him to play.

I don't think you would make the decision to pull him if you were in teh same spot that Kubiak is in. I think you would know that you would lose the locker room and all respect of your players if you did, and I don't think you would risk that kind of situation. Keeping the locker room is so important in the NFL, and pulling a respected vet like that..... would be pretty bad as far as that goes.


Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Yea, we definitely disagree and i dont think you lose a lockerroom when you are 0-5. But like i said, for now everything is going his way in terms of the team winning and him still being able to pursue his record. If things change im not so sure that they leave him in there.

Cugel
10-13-2015, 06:47 PM
Nobody stacked the box because they'd get there ass burned deep consistently. Manning would constantly hit the 35-49 yard stuff. He cant do it anymore.

He can do it. Obviously so in case you weren't paying attention.

He's overthrowing Emanuel Sanders in every game this season. What he is NOT doing is completing those plays because he's throwing too soon and the WR isn't far enough downfield. He only gets 1.5 seconds to make a decision and throw the ball in less than 2 seconds - on every play because the OL can't pass-protect. That isn't enough time to complete that deep throw.

The ONLY way that teams will back off and play their safeties deep is if Manning can complete some of those throws. And the only way he can complete them is if the OL gives him enough time to throw - like 2.5 to 3 seconds like a normal OL that doesn't suck - and a clean pocket to step up into.

Just like the last 4 years when Peyton also had a "noodle arm." The reason he has a noodle arm is the 4 neck surgeries in 2011. It didn't just happen one night in 2014.

I don't know why fans have such crappy memories that they don't realize that we've seen all this "Super-bowl Peyton" before -- all the way back to 2012. In the Atlanta game in 2012 the defense got right in Manning's face, didn't give him time to throw and denied him a clean pocket to step up and throw into. He responded by throwing 3 INTs in the first half.

He's periodically had those kind of games over the last 4 years - in fact almost every time a defense wins the battle at the LOS and prevents Manning from stepping up into his throws. Another example was the St. Louis Rams game last year.

Have you forgotten? They lost 7-22 while Peyton threw 2 ints and was pressured all night? This stuff ain't new people. Whenever he doesn't have time and a clean pocket he not only makes bad throws, he makes bad decisions. I went back and watched the Rams game highlights, and he looked right at Julius Thomas, never looked off the DB and Adam Ogletree cuts in front of the receiver and makes the pick.

Almost an exact replica of the Int on the throw to DT in the last game.

It didn't happen game after game in 2012-2014 because the OL was pass-protecting better than they are now. In MOST of those games.

Right now, Denver has some of the worst OTs in football. Fans just want to blame the QB for everything, when football only works from the inside out. It starts with the OL and the DL. Without good play from those lines NOTHING works. Nothing.

You're seeing that in Seattle this year where Pro-football Focus rates the Seahawks OL 30th in the NFL - 29th at pass-blocking and 28th at run-blocking. In the off-season all everybody could talk about is how the Seahawks strengthened their Super-Bowl team by adding stud TE Jimmy Graham. "Great move!" the critics gushed. Well, they traded pro-bowl C Max Unger to do it.

Now they're 2-3 and mired in 3rd place in the NFC West, 2 games back of the Cardinals, and Jimmy Graham has been a non-factor.

OL might be boring, but you don't win very often without a good one, not even if you have a great defense like the Seahawks.

I'd say Manning is doing a pretty good job this season considering that his OTs are among the worst in football and they can't run the ball even slightly in an offensive system predicated on running the ball. Without an effective run game, play-action doesn't work, and almost every throw is designed around play-action.

NightTerror218
10-13-2015, 06:55 PM
He can do it. Obviously so in case you weren't paying attention.

He's overthrowing Emanuel Sanders in every game this season. What he is NOT doing is completing those plays because he's throwing too soon and the WR isn't far enough downfield. He only gets 1.5 seconds to make a decision and throw the ball in less than 2 seconds - on every play because the OL can't pass-protect. That isn't enough time to complete that deep throw.

The ONLY way that teams will back off and play their safeties deep is if Manning can complete some of those throws. And the only way he can complete them is if the OL gives him enough time to throw - like 2.5 to 3 seconds like a normal OL that doesn't suck - and a clean pocket to step up into.

Just like the last 4 years when Peyton also had a "noodle arm." The reason he has a noodle arm is the 4 neck surgeries in 2011. It didn't just happen one night in 2014.

I don't know why fans have such crappy memories that they don't realize that we've seen all this "Super-bowl Peyton" before -- all the way back to 2012. In the Atlanta game in 2012 the defense got right in Manning's face, didn't give him time to throw and denied him a clean pocket to step up and throw into. He responded by throwing 3 INTs in the first half.

He's periodically had those kind of games over the last 4 years - in fact almost every time a defense wins the battle at the LOS and prevents Manning from stepping up into his throws. Another example was the St. Louis Rams game last year.

Have you forgotten? They lost 7-22 while Peyton threw 2 ints and was pressured all night? This stuff ain't new people. Whenever he doesn't have time and a clean pocket he not only makes bad throws, he makes bad decisions. I went back and watched the Rams game highlights, and he looked right at Julius Thomas, never looked off the DB and Adam Ogletree cuts in front of the receiver and makes the pick.

Almost an exact replica of the Int on the throw to DT in the last game.

It didn't happen game after game in 2012-2014 because the OL was pass-protecting better than they are now. In MOST of those games.

Right now, Denver has some of the worst OTs in football. Fans just want to blame the QB for everything, when football only works from the inside out. It starts with the OL and the DL. Without good play from those lines NOTHING works. Nothing.

You're seeing that in Seattle this year where Pro-football Focus rates the Seahawks OL 30th in the NFL - 29th at pass-blocking and 28th at run-blocking. In the off-season all everybody could talk about is how the Seahawks strengthened their Super-Bowl team by adding stud TE Jimmy Graham. "Great move!" the critics gushed. Well, they traded pro-bowl C Max Unger to do it.

Now they're 2-3 and mired in 3rd place in the NFC West, 2 games back of the Cardinals, and Jimmy Graham has been a non-factor.

OL might be boring, but you don't win very often without a good one, not even if you have a great defense like the Seahawks.

I'd say Manning is doing a pretty good job this season considering that his OTs are among the worst in football and they can't run the ball even slightly in an offensive system predicated on running the ball. Without an effective run game, play-action doesn't work, and almost every throw is designed around play-action.

I disagree I think he lost accuracy on the deep ball, he does not have touch on them anymore.

Look at his face this season when he throws, he is putting everything he has on those passes. Every single game he is throwing with all he has on each pass. Like he is trying to prove something. His arm can't handle that all season.

Cugel
10-13-2015, 06:55 PM
Yea, we definitely disagree and i dont think you lose a lockerroom when you are 0-5. But like i said, for now everything is going his way in terms of the team winning and him still being able to pursue his record. If things change im not so sure that they leave him in there.

They are definitely going to leave him in there.

Get used to it. :coffee:

The team will lose some games - probably to the Packers, the Patriots, and the Bengals. The fans will howl "Manning is washed up! Get Brock in there!"

And Kubiak will ignore them week after week. What he will be too polite to say is "the fans are idiots who know next to nothing about football!"

In reality most of whiners are butt hurt because they have Peyton on their fantasy teams and he's not getting them any points and they're mired in last place in their stupid fantasy league and they have to endure the mockery of their friends laughing at them because they took Manning in the first round and he suffered another bad performance.

This team will be measured by what it does in January. Kubiak knows they are going to make the playoffs. The only question is whether they can get the OL sorted out by then so they can run the ball effectively when they have to play in 12 degrees with a 20 knot cross-wind in Foxborough - not what happens in October.

Northman
10-13-2015, 06:58 PM
They are definitely going to leave him in there.

Get used to it. :coffee:

The team will lose some games - probably to the Packers, the Patriots, and the Bengals. The fans will howl "Manning is washed up! Get Brock in there!"

And Kubiak will ignore them week after week. What he will be too polite to say is "the fans are idiots who know next to nothing about football!"

In reality most of whiners are butt hurt because they have Peyton on their fantasy teams and he's not getting them any points and they're mired in last place in their stupid fantasy league and they have to endure the mockery of their friends laughing at them because they took Manning in the first round and he suffered another bad performance.

This team will be measured by what it does in January. Kubiak knows they are going to make the playoffs. The only question is whether they can get the OL sorted out by then so they can run the ball effectively when they have to play in 12 degrees with a 20 knot cross-wind in Foxborough - not what happens in October.

Oh, im not butthurt fantasy wise. My wife is though as she took him. I passed and took Rodgers and Brady. :)

Cugel
10-13-2015, 07:04 PM
I disagree I think he lost accuracy on the deep ball, he does not have touch on them anymore.

Look at his face this season when he throws, he is putting everything he has on those passes. Every single game he is throwing with all he has on each pass. Like he is trying to prove something. His arm can't handle that all season.

What a bunch of B.S. He's been doing that for years now. Go back and look at the replays of almost every Int he's thrown in the last 4 years. He has to step into every throw. If he can't he throws erratically and badly. Worse, when he gets pressure in his face and has to throw quickly and without being able to step into his throw, he's not only making bad throws, he's making bad decisions.

Go back and look at the games I mentioned and you'll see the same crap he was doing in the Super-Bowl. Like when he's looking right at a receiver the entire play so the DB knows exactly where he's going to throw, and then undercuts the route and picks him off. That's the kind of mistake you see rookies make, so why is Peyton still doing it in his 18th season?

Because he doesn't have time to look the DB off his receiver. Why? Because he hasn't had a strong arm his entire time in Denver, and his OL isn't blocking long enough that's why!

You people keep judging by results instead of looking at the PROCESS that leads to those results. Peyton is throwing more picks so people keep saying "his arm is shot! Put in Brock!" when it's demonstrably the same noodle arm he's had for years.

It's not as if he has a GOOD pass-blocking OL and then he's still throwing incomprehensible picks. That would prove your point, but it isn't happening.

Cugel
10-13-2015, 07:09 PM
Oh, im not butthurt fantasy wise. My wife is though as she took him. I passed and took Rodgers and Brady. :)

You do realize that if you laugh at her and continue to rub it in that's grounds for divorce?

Northman
10-13-2015, 07:12 PM
You do realize that if you laugh at her and continue to rub it in that's grounds for divorce?

Nah, she gives me shit just like i give it to her. But, i think she is benching him this week to go with Eli. She tried to stick with Peyton as long as she could but he just isnt putting up the numbers. But like me she is happy we are 5-0 so we have that going for us.

Cugel
10-13-2015, 07:26 PM
Here's something to console all the whiners for when the team starts losing -- and the OL is still a hot mess and they STILL won't "put in Brock!" no matter how loudly the idiots yell:

It just doesn't matter. "10-6 and get into the playoffs and anything can happen." -- Mike Shanahan.

3 of the last 5 SB champions were 10-6 #6 seed (Packers), 9-7 #4 seed Giants, and 10-6 #6 seed Ravens.

The Giants were a hot mess for most of the 2011 season. They were 8-7 entering the last week and had to win a "playoff" game against the Cowboys before they could even get to the playoffs; then they had to win 4 straight to win the SB. The 2012 Ravens started the season 9-2, then fell completely apart and were demolished by the Broncos 34-17 in week 15. They lost 4 out of their last 5 games and totally backed into the playoffs.

It mattered nothing. They put it together in the post-season and won the SB.

The ugly secret of the NFL is that the regular season doesn't matter any more. Just get in the playoffs any old way. Then the team that can get hot at the right time usually wins. And you can't hope to tell what team that will be by what they do in October.

The Patriots look unstoppable right now and are totally crushing teams. But, they were favored by about 17 points at home in the AFC Championship game against the Ravens in 2012 and got blown out by 15 points. Appearances can be deceiving.

SR
10-13-2015, 09:41 PM
Nah, she gives me shit just like i give it to her. But, i think she is benching him this week to go with Eli. She tried to stick with Peyton as long as she could but he just isnt putting up the numbers. But like me she is happy we are 5-0 so we have that going for us.

I would rather play Brian Hoyer over Peyton Manning at this point. How ******* sad is that?!

TXBRONC
10-13-2015, 09:44 PM
I would rather play Brian Hoyer over Peyton Manning at this point. How ******* sad is that?!

I don't know you anymore!!!!!!!

NightTerror218
10-13-2015, 09:45 PM
What a bunch of B.S. He's been doing that for years now. Go back and look at the replays of almost every Int he's thrown in the last 4 years. He has to step into every throw. If he can't he throws erratically and badly. Worse, when he gets pressure in his face and has to throw quickly and without being able to step into his throw, he's not only making bad throws, he's making bad decisions.

Go back and look at the games I mentioned and you'll see the same crap he was doing in the Super-Bowl. Like when he's looking right at a receiver the entire play so the DB knows exactly where he's going to throw, and then undercuts the route and picks him off. That's the kind of mistake you see rookies make, so why is Peyton still doing it in his 18th season?

Because he doesn't have time to look the DB off his receiver. Why? Because he hasn't had a strong arm his entire time in Denver, and his OL isn't blocking long enough that's why!

You people keep judging by results instead of looking at the PROCESS that leads to those results. Peyton is throwing more picks so people keep saying "his arm is shot! Put in Brock!" when it's demonstrably the same noodle arm he's had for years.

It's not as if he has a GOOD pass-blocking OL and then he's still throwing incomprehensible picks. That would prove your point, but it isn't happening.

TLDR

Clean pockets he I still throwing INTs.

Woodson says Hi.

TXBRONC
10-13-2015, 09:50 PM
TLDR

Clean pockets he I still throwing INTs.

Woodson says Hi.


It's frustrating to watch Manning struggle. I keep thinking he's going to turn it around every week but so far he hasn't had one clean game.

Ravage!!!
10-13-2015, 11:21 PM
the biggest indication to me about his lack of arm strength is the deep ball. He can't launch them with LOFT anymore, which is why its been harder to connect. They don't loft over the defender and allow the WR to run under the ball. They have to go at a much flatter trajectory to go the same distance... making it much harder to connect and catch. Also much harder to get OVER the defender. Which then makes that int with DT on the sideline that much weirder, because it had MUCH more loft on it than we've seen on any other pass ths year. It was late, and high loft. Which isn't what we would see from Manning, even this year.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-13-2015, 11:28 PM
the biggest indication to me about his lack of arm strength is the deep ball. He can't launch them with LOFT anymore, which is why its been harder to connect. They don't loft over the defender and allow the WR to run under the ball. They have to go at a much flatter trajectory to go the same distance... making it much harder to connect and catch. Also much harder to get OVER the defender. Which then makes that int with DT on the sideline that much weirder, because it had MUCH more loft on it than we've seen on any other pass ths year. It was late, and high loft. Which isn't what we would see from Manning, even this year.

Well, it was only about 30 yards, for whatever that's worth.

Joel
10-15-2015, 02:41 AM
The point of this thread is we started the season pushing the run game and it failed because our line sucks, so everyone blamed our "awful" RBs and coaches: "Let Peyton" channel his inner Daryle Lamonica. Well, we DID, but since our line's STILL crap he's more "mad" than "bomber," so now everyone blames our "awful" QB for being "unable" to throw deep, as they DEMANDED a month ago.

At least PRETEND to have an attention span longer than a goldfish, folks, and occasionally focus on someone other than the guy whose jersey you're wearing. I'll address individual replies when I have more time.

Canmore
10-15-2015, 02:43 AM
The point of this thread is we started the season pushing the run game and it failed because our line sucks, so everyone blamed our "awful" RBs and coaches: "Let Peyton" channel his inner Daryle Lamonica. Well, we DID, but since our line's STILL crap he's more "mad" than "bomber," so now everyone blames our "awful" QB for being "unable" to throw deep, as they DEMANDED a month ago.

At least PRETEND to have an attention span longer than a goldfish, folks, and maybe occasionally take a close look at someone other than the guy whose jesery you're wearing.

I'm wearing Champ Bailey's.

Joel
10-15-2015, 02:53 AM
I'm wearing Champ Bailey's.
Guy can't even throw 10 yds; we should totally cut him. :tongue:

Canmore
10-15-2015, 03:06 AM
Guy can't even throw 10 yds; we should totally cut him. :tongue:

There you have it.