View Full Version : Lack of Offensive Weapons the Real Problem? (TE, 3rd WR, Pass catching RB)
TimHippo
10-12-2015, 12:18 PM
2013 Team:
Knowshon Moreno 1000 yards running, 500 yards receiving, 13 TDs
DT 1400 yards receiving, 14 TDs
Decker 1288 yards, 11 TDs
Welker 778 yards, 10 TDs
Julius Thomas 788 yards, 12 TDs
That's 5 offensive weapons that the defense has to account for and prevents them from stacking the box or blitzing too aggressively when there's a screen threat to Moreno or safety valve in Welker.
2015 Team.
DT
Sanders
Nobody else is really a dangerous threat from the defensive viewpoint. I don't think anyone is scared of them. Easy to stack the box with a 46 style attack that obliterates the run and attacks the QB.
CJ Anderson and Hillman have only 12 receptions between them which projects out to 38 receptions and 270 yards total over the season. Compare that with 80 receptions combined for Moreno and Ball for 700 yards in 2013.
For his career Hillman averages less than 12 receptions per season. He cannot catch. Anderson had 39 receptions the year before so he can be somewhat effective. The primary way to keep a stack the box type attacking 46 style defense honest is the screen pass to the back. Yet that option isn't available to keep the defense honest.
Especially with Peyton Manning's limited range/arm strength and short passes you would think that a pass catching running back is essential.
First: I'm sorry if this sounds hyperbelligerent; that's more a comment on the tone of general fan criticisms of our offense than yours specifically.
No, lack of pass protection and run surge is STILL the problem, because a team with a decent line came offset bad passing with good running or offset bad running with good passing, but a team with bad blocking can't run, pass nor even PUNT consistently. We've changed our starting RB every season since 2010, and always because x is too slow, too hesitant, too fragile, dances around, can't find the hole etc. etc. The closest we came to a permanent starter was McGahee, who led the NFL in yards AFTER CONTACT in 2011, but got so beat up in the process he was benched by midseason 2012 and retired after 2013.
Same deal with the passing game. I concede we don't (quite) have as many receiving threats as Welker and Decker provided, but Sanders is at least as good as Welker at his best, and Fowlers last 2 games suggest he may be at least as good as Decker. We don't need four All Pro WRs (especially one who's a "TE" who can't block and misses half of every season with injuries) but we do need >2 seconds for them to get deep before we it's reasonable to say our geriatric QBs can't make those throws, or can only do so with "rainbows" (yah, that's what happens when forced to throw early and wait for a WR to run under it.)
This isn't fantasy football, Madden or a recess discussion over choco moo-moo. "Unskilled" positions MATTER; no team can do jack without quality at ALL offensive line positions, because even ONE bum among four All Pros becomes a glaring hole any decent defense pours through and exploits: The line functions as a unit, or not at all. Defenders and blitz aggressively because they know that even if a play fake's legit, they'll just meet the RB in backfield, and if it's a screen they'll get to the outside before the blocking does. Until we can block four with five, that won't change, no matter how often we change RBs and QBs.
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 12:55 PM
That 2013 team and 2014 team arguably had more offensive weapons on it than any team in the history of the NFL. Last year's team still had more weapons than probably 99% of the NFL.
If this team needs that many offensive weapons to be productive, there is a real issue with the scheme.
Magnificent Seven
10-12-2015, 01:04 PM
I hate to say this... Peyton Manning has trouble with reading defensive coverages and he needs to work on that. Broncos should have kept Orlando Franklin and Manny Ramirez.
TimHippo
10-12-2015, 01:06 PM
That 2013 team and 2014 team arguably had more offensive weapons on it than any team in the history of the NFL. Last year's team still had more weapons than probably 99% of the NFL.
If this team needs that many offensive weapons to be productive, there is a real issue with the scheme.
Yes, but reduced weapons, older Manning, zone blocking scheme, and worse o-line than 2013 or 2014 and it's easy to see why the offense has collapsed. If you can even incrementally improve in any of those areas than the offense will start to improve, no?
Magnificent Seven
10-12-2015, 01:08 PM
Moreover, I think they should use WR Fowler often. He's a solid WR and I like him.
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:12 PM
Yes, but reduced weapons, older Manning, zone blocking scheme, and worse o-line than 2013 or 2014 and it's easy to see why the offense has collapsed. If you can even incrementally improve in any of those areas than the offense will start to improve, no?
The offense has collapsed because John Elway failed during the offseason. He brought in a coach that was going to change the entire identity of the offense, then he is hellbent on bringing Peyton Manning in, who can't move and is used to running his style and tells him things are going to change, he then goes out and basically completely ignores the entire oline, which is really the only thing that could save Peyton Manning. If he was so helbent on bringing Manning back he should have made the oline an absolute priority. If his plan was to ignore the oline through the change like he did, then why insist on bringing back Manning? Move on from him.
Just f'n stupid. We could finish this season with one of the most unique types of defenses ever seen in the NFL, and it's going to go completely wasted because nobody in this entire organization seems to have their shit together regarding the offense.
Yashahla17
10-12-2015, 01:21 PM
Excuses excuses. Everyone on offense would need to be top 3 at there position for manning to look good vs looking poor without it? I'm sure Tebow could win with top 3 at every position
NightTerror218
10-12-2015, 01:24 PM
The offense has collapsed because John Elway failed during the offseason. He brought in a coach that was going to change the entire identity of the offense, then he is hellbent on bringing Peyton Manning in, who can't move and is used to running his style and tells him things are going to change, he then goes out and basically completely ignores the entire oline, which is really the only thing that could save Peyton Manning. If he was so helbent on bringing Manning back he should have made the oline an absolute priority. If his plan was to ignore the oline through the change like he did, then why insist on bringing back Manning? Move on from him.
Just f'n stupid. We could finish this season with one of the most unique types of defenses ever seen in the NFL, and it's going to go completely wasted because nobody in this entire organization seems to have their shit together regarding the offense.
I believe we drafted 2 future starters in the draft, OL was addressed. Clady going down was not part of the plan. 4 OL free agents were brought on, Mathis is starting. What more do you want? Franklin got paid very well and ManRam was on final year on contract and team saved $3 mill and got Mathis for cheaper.
The offense has collapsed because John Elway failed during the offseason. He brought in a coach that was going to change the entire identity of the offense, then he is hellbent on bringing Peyton Manning in, who can't move and is used to running his style and tells him things are going to change, he then goes out and basically completely ignores the entire oline, which is really the only thing that could save Peyton Manning. If he was so helbent on bringing Manning back he should have made the oline an absolute priority. If his plan was to ignore the oline through the change like he did, then why insist on bringing back Manning? Move on from him.
Just f'n stupid. We could finish this season with one of the most unique types of defenses ever seen in the NFL, and it's going to go completely wasted because nobody in this entire organization seems to have their shit together regarding the offense.
Early in the offseason, I agreed, but, by the end, we couldn't really say he IGNORED the line: THREE 2014 starter's are gone, replaced by a former All Pro FA, this years 2nd round pick and a guy Shanny drafted for Denvers ZBS, who then went on to play in it under Kubiak in Houston. Losing Clady was bad not just because of LT, but because it meant even more change on a line that had already seen too much, and forced a rookie who might've been OK at RT to start at LT, the most demanding and crucial pass blocking spot on the whole line.
The reality is our line was already garbage under Fox—BEFORE Fox—and there's only so many draft picks and so much cap money each year. We'll get there, but probably too late for Manning to get a final Ring.
TXBRONC
10-12-2015, 01:28 PM
I believe we drafted 2 future starters in the draft, OL was addressed. Clady going down was not part of the plan. 4 OL free agents were brought on, Mathis is starting. What more do you want? Franklin got paid very well and ManRam was on final year on contract and team saved $3 mill and got Mathis for cheaper.
Agreed.
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:30 PM
I believe we drafted 2 future starters in the draft, OL was addressed. Clady going down was not part of the plan. 4 OL free agents were brought on, Mathis is starting. What more do you want? Franklin got paid very well and ManRam was on final year on contract and team saved $3 mill and got Mathis for cheaper.
"Future". How does that help Manning this year. That's my point. If they want to move towards the future that's fine. But then why bring Peyton Manning back to get his ass kicked? OL wasn't addressed. Clady wasn't even a better than average player last year. They had to bring an additional tackle on his side to help him. Mathis has been one of the worst olinemen in the NFL week in and week out. Why is he even still starting?
Like I have said all offseason, Elway basically brought Manning back to get him pummeled week in and week out. Big failure on Elway with that. You're moving forward, go with the new QB. BTW - is Elway still saying he wants Manning back next year? That's a joke.
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:31 PM
Early in the offseason, I agreed, but, by the end, we couldn't really say he IGNORED the line: THREE 2014 starter's are gone, replaced by a former All Pro FA, this years 2nd round pick and a guy Shanny drafted for Denvers ZBS, who then went on to play in it under Kubiak in Houston. Losing Clady was bad not just because of LT, but because it meant even more change on a line that had already seen too much, and forced a rookie who might've been OK at RT to start at LT, the most demanding and crucial pass blocking spot on the whole line.
The reality is our line was already garbage under Fox—BEFORE Fox—and there's only so many draft picks and so much cap money each year. We'll get there, but probably too late for Manning to get a final Ring.
Again, you're drafting 2 starters, to protect a 40 year old statue, all playing in an entirely new system? Yea, why are we even surprised what's happening on offense.
I believe we drafted 2 future starters in the draft, OL was addressed. Clady going down was not part of the plan. 4 OL free agents were brought on, Mathis is starting. What more do you want? Franklin got paid very well and ManRam was on final year on contract and team saved $3 mill and got Mathis for cheaper.
Yeah, been thinking about that a lot lately: Rotoworld shows Ramirez on a one-year $1.4 million deal in Detroit, and I might've taken that just to avoid further instability on a line adding a rookie OT and a G who showed up at his first practice mere WEEKS before Opening Day. But Franklin? $36½ over 5 years, with a $3 million salary and equal signing bonus this year. No way in HELL Franklin's worth a $6 million cap hit, especially not when we'll only pay Mathis $4 million if he plays every game ($2½ million if he gets benched/hurt.)
Fixing the line was as much about separating wheat from chaff as replacing the latter; we had a LOT of that latter, so even if we were able to find studs for ALL replacements (unlikely in a single offseason) it'll take them time to get used to each other. It's tempting to point to Vasquez as an island of stability, but since he's the SOLE returning starter he knows his linemates no better than any of them do.
Dzone
10-12-2015, 01:35 PM
Many thought CJ Anderson was on his way to becoming the next great Bronco running back. Now am not sure if its the offensive line being terrible, or if CJ just plain sucks as a player. Huge letdown thats for sure
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:36 PM
Mathis shouldn't even be playing. That guy has been brutal all year. WE could be playing Max Garcia, getting him some experience moving forward, and most likely getting the same garbage play out of the LG. Hell, maybe Garcia would even be an upgrade to just simply "not good".
Again, you're drafting 2 starters, to protect a 40 year old statue, all playing in an entirely new system? Yea, why are we even surprised what's happening on offense.
Who's surprised? Everyone paying attention knew before Opening Day it would be bad; the question was HOW bad for HOW long. But: What was the alternative? The old starters were terrible AND demanding more money: Keeping them would've just ensured more of the same garbage play, but we COULDN'T keep them regardless. So we either sign FAs or draft starters, but since both cap space and draft picks are finite, the best approach is both, which is what we did.
It's hard to fill many holes in a single year, and we were guaranteed our new linemen would be unfamiliar with the complex system and each other no matter WHAT we did. We did as much as we could.
NightTerror218
10-12-2015, 01:37 PM
"Future". How does that help Manning this year. That's my point. If they want to move towards the future that's fine. But then why bring Peyton Manning back to get his ass kicked? OL wasn't addressed. Clady wasn't even a better than average player last year. They had to bring an additional tackle on his side to help him. Mathis has been one of the worst olinemen in the NFL week in and week out. Why is he even still starting?
Like I have said all offseason, Elway basically brought Manning back to get him pummeled week in and week out. Big failure on Elway with that. You're moving forward, go with the new QB. BTW - is Elway still saying he wants Manning back next year? That's a joke.
Manning was up in the air if he was returning or not. And why and go spend million s if you had players you do to keep. You can't go out and just buy all these top FA every year. Manning can back, I never heard of Elway pushing it. I do not think Elway brought him back, more like allowed him to return.
Btw if Elway did spend big on FA oline that you would be bitching about DThomas being gone. Because we would not have had the most eyes to keep him and fill in the roster.
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:39 PM
Who's surprised?
If you look on the first page, there is an abundance of "Manning should be benched", "Where's Tim Tebow", "why does our offense suck", etc threads. If people weren't surprised, you would have an abundance of "how great is our defense", our defense is beastly", etc threads.
BroncoJoe
10-12-2015, 01:40 PM
The offense has collapsed because John Elway failed during the offseason. He brought in a coach that was going to change the entire identity of the offense, then he is hellbent on bringing Peyton Manning in, who can't move and is used to running his style and tells him things are going to change, he then goes out and basically completely ignores the entire oline, which is really the only thing that could save Peyton Manning. If he was so helbent on bringing Manning back he should have made the oline an absolute priority. If his plan was to ignore the oline through the change like he did, then why insist on bringing back Manning? Move on from him.
Just f'n stupid. We could finish this season with one of the most unique types of defenses ever seen in the NFL, and it's going to go completely wasted because nobody in this entire organization seems to have their shit together regarding the offense.
Rubbish.
Mathis shouldn't even be playing. That guy has been brutal all year. WE could be playing Max Garcia, getting him some experience moving forward, and most likely getting the same garbage play out of the LG. Hell, maybe Garcia would even be an upgrade to just simply "not good".
Do you hate starting rookies, or hate starting FAs? Wanna pay $8 million to start Franklin and the guy who sent the SBs first snap through our end zone?` Trick question: The last one's not an option.
Let's make it simple, because it's easy to say what we should NOT have done: What would you HAVE done?
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:42 PM
Manning was up in the air if he was returning or not.
Yea, and Elway had to go and not help the situation by basically begging him to come back. "He Manning, we have a new coach, a new system, the offense won't be yours anymore, a new oline with 2 rookies probably starting, and a plethora of questions of is this even going to work or not. Do you want to come back and *getyourasskickedaround* lead these young guys on how to play?
Manning has been really bad this year, and it will be interesting to see if his legacy takes a hit. And if it does, I'm going to blame John Elway for putting Manning in a situation where he was going to get his ass kicked,
BroncoJoe
10-12-2015, 01:42 PM
Manning was up in the air if he was returning or not. And why and go spend million s if you had players you do to keep. You can't go out and just buy all these top FA every year. Manning can back, I never heard of Elway pushing it. I do not think Elway brought him back, more like allowed him to return.
Btw if Elway did spend big on FA oline that you would be bitching about DThomas being gone. Because we would not have had the most eyes to keep him and fill in the roster.
For $4MM less, BTW.
I think Kubiak was brought in to move the team forward POST Manning.
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:43 PM
Rubbish.
No. Our line is not good. I'm telling you.
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:47 PM
Do you hate starting rookies, or hate starting FAs? Wanna pay $8 million to start Franklin and the guy who sent the SBs first snap through our end zone?` Trick question: The last one's not an option.
Let's make it simple, because it's easy to say what we should NOT have done: What would you HAVE done?
Move on from Manning. Try reading what I've been saying. You're changing the culture of the offense into Kubiak's, and you're probably going to struggle along the oline. That's fine. I'm for that. I'm not for bringing a 40 year old QB that plays the role of a fainting goat anytime there's a rush coming, and will probably have a hard time not running what the offense is because he's used to doing his own. Don't even ask Manning back.
Manning had 3 years to get a SuperBowl doing it his way with possibly every type of weapon given to his disposable. And we got 2 playoff wins, and 2 other playoffs without a win. It was a great 3 years in the regular season but we didn't get the SuperBowl with him and the playoffs were an utter disappointment. That's fine, move on from him.
If you look on the first page, there is an abundance of "Manning should be benched", "Where's Tim Tebow", "why does our offense suck", etc threads. If people weren't surprised, you would have an abundance of "how great is our defense", our defense is beastly", etc threads.
Well, as I also said, everyone who PAID ATTENTION knew before Opening Day that it would be bad, only wondering how bad for how long. I concede many people are sounding off without paying attention, and most of them blame Manning, even though that's like leaving the oven on and blaming the firemen when the house burns down "because they're too old to put out fires anymore." Some do the same thing with the running game, so we're having the perennial perpetual "[current starter here] is slow, dances and has a 'glass vaj;' we should use [guy I'll criticize the same way next year]" debate.
BroncoJoe
10-12-2015, 01:51 PM
No. Our line is not good. I'm telling you.
Thanks. Not listening, though.
Our line is not world-beaters, but having Manning back there only magnifies the problem.
Do any of you watch any other games? 100% of the QB's out there have to move to escape the pass rush in every single game. Manning faints. Dude can't move.
Move on from Manning. Try reading what I've been saying. You're changing the culture of the offense into Kubiak's, and you're probably going to struggle along the oline. That's fine. I'm for that. I'm not for bringing a 40 year old QB that plays the role of a fainting goat anytime there's a rush coming, and will probably have a hard time not running what the offense is because he's used to doing his own. Don't even ask Manning back.
Manning had 3 years to get a SuperBowl doing it his way with possibly every type of weapon given to his disposable. And we got 2 playoff wins, and 2 other playoffs without a win. It was a great 3 years in the regular season but we didn't get the SuperBowl with him and the playoffs were an utter disappointment. That's fine, move on from him.
If the problem's the LINE turning the run AND passing game to crap DESPITE Manning, how would moving on at QB fix that? All 4 tires are flat, but if we drop in a new engine they'll reinflate? He's no worse than when he looked like crap during a SB the SAME YEAR he had the BEST SEASON BY ANY QB EVER, so maybe the same critical flaws that caused an elite QB the same problems then are still doing so.
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:53 PM
Thanks. Not listening, though.
Our line is not world-beaters, but having Manning back there only magnifies the problem.
Do any of you watch any other games? 100% of the QB's out there have to move to escape the pass rush in every single game. Manning faints. Dude can't move.
Yes, which begs the question of why is he still starting? IMHO, Manning has through the bye week to figure it out, and if he goes into the bye week struggling, and they have 2 weeks to get Brock Osweiler ready, at that point we're going to see about how serious they are in trying to turn this thing around this year. Would be a shame to waste what our defense is doing.
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:55 PM
If the problem's the LINE turning the run AND passing game to crap DESPITE Manning, how would moving on at QB fix that? All 4 tires are flat, but if we drop in a new engine they'll reinflate? He's no worse than when he looked like crap during a SB the SAME YEAR he had the BEST SEASON BY ANY QB EVER, so maybe the same critical flaws that caused an elite QB the same problems then are still doing so.
You must be on board with the theory that Elway actually is trying to get Manning hurt. Because seriously, what miracles did they think Manning would do in a situation like that? He started showing signs of panicking in the pocket last year when our oline was much better than it is now.
BroncoJoe
10-12-2015, 01:55 PM
Yes, which begs the question of why is he still starting? IMHO, Manning has through the bye week to figure it out, and if he goes into the bye week struggling, and they have 2 weeks to get Brock Osweiler ready, at that point we're going to see about how serious they are in trying to turn this thing around this year. Would be a shame to waste what our defense is doing.
Because he's PFM. He's not going to get benched. He might suffer some mysterious injury though.
silkamilkamonico
10-12-2015, 01:59 PM
Because he's PFM. He's not going to get benched. He might suffer some mysterious injury though.
Fine with me. I will never forget what Manning has been to this franchise in his short time. Hell I get my first, and likely only, Broncos jersey of him. But I am going to question if they cater this season to him, and not whats best of the organization. This defense can win with even a very conventional, even if not explosive offense. Give it a chance.
TimHippo
10-12-2015, 01:59 PM
Yes, which begs the question of why is he still starting? IMHO, Manning has through the bye week to figure it out, and if he goes into the bye week struggling, and they have 2 weeks to get Brock Osweiler ready, at that point we're going to see about how serious they are in trying to turn this thing around this year. Would be a shame to waste what our defense is doing.
I think they must know that Osweiler is no good.
BroncoJoe
10-12-2015, 02:04 PM
I think they must know that Osweiler is no good.
Bull.
They're not going to bench PFM. Once he decided to come back - with a $4MM paycut, which I think was a ploy to get him to retire - the deal was done.
Kubiak was brought in for Oz and the future. Not Manning and the present. It's clear as day to me.
TimHippo
10-12-2015, 02:07 PM
Bull.
They're not going to bench PFM. Once he decided to come back - with a $4MM paycut, which I think was a ploy to get him to retire - the deal was done.
Kubiak was brought in for Oz and the future. Not Manning and the present. It's clear as day to me.
Are you from England? Why did you say rubbish?
BroncoJoe
10-12-2015, 02:08 PM
Are you from England? Why did you say rubbish?
It sounded good :)
Plus, I changed it to Bull. I used Rubbish earlier ;)
You must be on board with the theory that Elway actually is trying to get Manning hurt. Because seriously, what miracles did they think Manning would do in a situation like that? He started showing signs of panicking in the pocket last year when our oline was much better than it is now.
I'd panic if I had an unblocked LB right in front of me at the snap, too; think Oz has steelier nerves? Should we try to get HIM hurt instead?
About the only way we'd be better off without Manning NOW is if he outright cut him and used the extra cap space to pickup stud FA linemen. Except I believe we're already on the hook for Mannings full 2015 cap hit, and there aren't loads of top linemen sitting by their phones in October (else we'd have picked up someone better than Polumbus when Sambrailo got hurt.)
Elway can talk about "win from now on" all he wants, but the reality is teams go through cycles as players (and contracts) age, so a certain amount of periodic rebuilding is inevitable. Elway's done well in that we only have one thing that needs rebuilding, but poorly in that it's teh MOST IMPORTANT THING. It should be done by Opening Day next year, but by then we'll almost certainly be breaking in a new QB (the SECOND most important thing) and hoping he's at least solid, if not necessarily elite. This team's stacked everywhere BUT the line, so it doesn't need a HoFer to win SBs, but can't do it with Ponder.
Krugan
10-12-2015, 04:12 PM
I do think we are missing a TE.
Other than that the offense has talent, DT and Sanders are a great 1 two punch. Sadly it seems like Manning has nothing over the middle. And its either he doesnt like to go there, or thats the 3rd read and he doesnt have time to get there, or he cant make those passes, or we just dont have someone to go over the middle. At least it seems we dont go there often enough.
DenBronx
10-12-2015, 04:24 PM
The 2013 team was set up perfect, offensively at least.
Moreno was a solid RB that was also very good at catching. We don't have RBs in this offense like that. He was perfect for Manning.
Decker, although much different from Sanders was still very fast, ran good routes and had the size that made him a real reszone threat. Which is why he was a TD machine.
Welker. Look I like the guys we have now but Welker was so clutch on 3rd downs. He was a safety blanket for Manning.
Julius. Oh god....our TEs blow compared to him. I would much much rather have a pass catching TE than a blocking TE. Don't even get me started on this one.
Then on top of that we lost our better OL guys. Take away scheme and play calling by Gase and this offense definitely feels the sting of losing all of that. We took too many steps backwards and replaced it with an offense that really hasn't been special since Elway and TD were playing. What worked back then doesn't really go over in todays NFL. Kubiak is stuck in the past I'm affraid.
The 2013 offense is where Manning was most lethal. Add in our defense now and that's one scary team...dynasty for sure!
G_Money
10-12-2015, 04:50 PM
The 2013 team was set up perfect, offensively at least.
Moreno was a solid RB that was also very good at catching. We don't have RBs in this offense like that. He was perfect for Manning.
Decker, although much different from Sanders was still very fast, ran good routes and had the size that made him a real reszone threat. Which is why he was a TD machine.
Welker. Look I like the guys we have now but Welker was so clutch on 3rd downs. He was a safety blanket for Manning.
Julius. Oh god....our TEs blow compared to him. I would much much rather have a pass catching TE than a blocking TE. Don't even get me started on this one.
Then on top of that we lost our better OL guys. Take away scheme and play calling by Gase and this offense definitely feels the sting of losing all of that. We took too many steps backwards and replaced it with an offense that really hasn't been special since Elway and TD were playing. What worked back then doesn't really go over in todays NFL. Kubiak is stuck in the past I'm affraid.
The 2013 offense is where Manning was most lethal. Add in our defense now and that's one scary team...dynasty for sure!
Needs in the draft: Pass-catching threat at TE who can hopefully block (man do we miss what Heuerman was supposed to be so hopefully he comes back healthy), another OT because odds are Clady is gone to allow us to sign Von, a real slot threat (not Norwood), a guard... basically just draft offense the whole way. Latimer and Schofield's shortcomings are beating us up right now. If Latimer was DT 2.0 that would move Sanders to the slot and open the field up significantly. Blowing the 2013 draft after Sly didn't help either.
I wish we had this defense with the PFM offense from 2-3 years ago. No luck there. We're just missing some pieces to hide Manning's current deficiencies. Glad to see Fowler stepping up. We may have to put Fowler outside and Sanders more in the slot to try to help Manning get better targets over the middle - but that might just get Sanders concussed again. That dude doesn't like to hit the turf willingly.
I still don't know why we're not doing pitches and sweeps away from the line-blocking direction though. We can't do naked boots with Peyton but Hillman's supposed to be good in space isn't he? So give him some space. This idiotic "run it directly into the line where there is no hole for the 47th time in a row" is killing me.
Get it together, Kubes. After 5 weeks you know what you have to work with. Moving it between the 20s against the Raiders is no great feat, and in fact was what you were known for in Texas: getting the easy yards and flubbing the hard ones. Spark up that offensive genius and coach to adapt to your weaknesses.
NightTerror218
10-12-2015, 04:58 PM
I do think we are missing a TE.
Other than that the offense has talent, DT and Sanders are a great 1 two punch. Sadly it seems like Manning has nothing over the middle. And its either he doesnt like to go there, or thats the 3rd read and he doesnt have time to get there, or he cant make those passes, or we just dont have someone to go over the middle. At least it seems we dont go there often enough.
I don't think there is anything over middle due to safeties sitting there and blocking it.
I still don't know why we're not doing pitches and sweeps away from the line-blocking direction though. We can't do naked boots with Peyton but Hillman's supposed to be good in space isn't he? So give him some space. This idiotic "run it directly into the line where there is no hole for the 47th time in a row" is killing me.
Get it together, Kubes. After 5 weeks you know what you have to work with. Moving it between the 20s against the Raiders is no great feat, and in fact was what you were known for in Texas: getting the easy yards and flubbing the hard ones. Spark up that offensive genius and coach to adapt to your weaknesses.
We HAVE tried sweeps (or "stretches" as the kids call them ;)) but they work no better because our linemen are unsurprisingly no better at pulling outside than producing line surge straight ahead. I'd like to see more pitches myself, because you're right they suit Hillmans skills better, but fear most would quickly and abruptly end with unblocked LBs and safeties diving in to take out our RBs for 5 yard losses. Same reason our formerly elite screen game has been impotent for a year-and-a-half. If we want to run the ol' counter trey, we need hogs, not pork.
I agree with using Fowler as "Baby DT" on the outside with Sanders back in the slot position we signed him to fill after Welker. It's a shame we spent a high pick on Latimer to fill that role and he's been a dud, but since an UDFA's shown every sign of that ability the last two weeks, it works out the same—we may even be able to pickup a decent 2016 pick or backup OT in a trade for Latimer if we hurry up and DO it before his nonproduction eliminates his remaining value and the deadline hits.
There's nothing wrong with using Fowlers big body and speed inside against smaller safeties and slower LBs and leaving Sanders outside as a deep threat, as some have suggested. The point is that there are growing signs we've found our third lethal weapon, which would be plenty if the line CONSISTENTLY 1) got surge inside OR coordinated well enough to pull outside and 2) protected Manning >2 seconds so WRs could GET deep without him rushing out floaters just ahead of sacks, hoping Sanders can run under the ball before it hits the turf (or a safety.)
The 2013 team was set up perfect, offensively at least.
The 20th best rushing average is hardly "perfect;" it was almost BOTTOM TEN. It was a one-dimensional offense that could neither protect its QB nor provide run support to take some pressure off him, so teams sold out on stopping the passing game. Once Seattle showed literally the whole world that we couldn't block four with five, so defenses could double up DT and drop everyone but a deep safety robber down to smother the short passing game, it was all over for good. Just because Moreno finally got so mad at being hit at the handoff EVERY TIME that he stopped dancing and started hitting doesn't change that.
DenBronx
10-12-2015, 05:17 PM
The 2013 team was set up perfect, offensively at least.
The 20th best rushing average is hardly "perfect;" it was almost BOTTOM TEN. It was a one-dimensional offense that could neither protect its QB nor provide run support to take some pressure off him, so teams sold out on stopping the passing game. Once Seattle showed literally the whole world that we couldn't block four with five, so defenses could double up DT and drop everyone but a deep safety robber down to smother the short passing game, it was all over for good. Just because Moreno finally got so mad at being hit at the handoff EVERY TIME that he stopped dancing and started hitting doesn't change that.
Idgaf about 20th in rushing when we are putting up Madden like TDs. **** the run game when all we did was score score and score some more.
NightTerror218
10-12-2015, 05:18 PM
Now it really sucks our new TE is on IR.
Northman
10-12-2015, 05:21 PM
Now it really sucks our new TE is on IR.
Indeed.
DenBronx
10-12-2015, 05:22 PM
Now it really sucks our new TE is on IR.
Who? Which one?
Damn that sucks.
NightTerror218
10-12-2015, 05:23 PM
Who? Which one?
Damn that sucks.
The draft pick.
Idgaf about 20th in rushing when we are putting up Madden like TDs. **** the run game when all we did was score score and score some more.
We scored ONCE in the SB, and needed THREE ENTIRE QUARTERS to even do that. Not with "washed up has-been" Manning: 2013 Manning, with all those elite weapons and that unstoppable record-setting pass—er, "offense." Fine, you don't care about run support: Manning does, and if he'd had at the end of our 2012 playoff game instead of handing off to a 3rd string RB (playing because the first two were hurt) behind a line where a ONE-LEGGED guy was our BEST blocker, we win by a TD in regulation instead of getting 5 yds in 3 tries and leaving them 0:30 to force OT with a Hail Mary.
One-dimensional teams don't win championships; ask Elway what happens when a first ballot HoF QB takes a great D and NO run game to a SB. Giants 39, Broncos 20—and that was the "close" one.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-12-2015, 06:32 PM
We might not have the embarrassment of riches we had last year, but to say there's a lack of skill player talent is in no way accurate. We have an underpforming O-line and a QB who struggles to push the ball down the field. Teams this year are doing what Indy did last year.
I love Manning, but to deny that his skills have deminished a little is just well...
TimHippo
10-12-2015, 07:44 PM
We might not have the embarrassment of riches we had last year, but to say there's a lack of skill player talent is in no way accurate. We have an underpforming O-line and a QB who struggles to push the ball down the field. Teams this year are doing what Indy did last year.
I love Manning, but to deny that his skills have deminished a little is just well...
I don't see anyone saying his skills haven't diminished. Can you point out those posts?
His skills have diminished which is why he needs more help than ever and not less.
I don't see anyone saying his skills haven't diminished. Can you point out those posts?
His skills have diminished which is why he needs more help than ever and not less.
Could be wrong, but I believe he was referring to the "skill positions" on which the thread's premised. I've always hated that phrase, because it implies any five randomly chosen clumsy moronic hulks can be starting NFL linemen; if that were true, we'd be en route to our second or third Manning championship.
DenBronx
10-12-2015, 08:47 PM
null
For some reason you use the SB as an example. You use ONE GAME....then say one dimensional teams don't win anything. I hate to break it to you Joel but this team is one dimensional right now. All we did was trade offense for defense and will still get smoked by teams like GB and NE.
For some reason you use the SB as an example. You use ONE GAME....then say one dimensional teams don't win anything. I hate to break it to you Joel but this team is one dimensional right now. All we did was trade offense for defense and will still get smoked by teams like GB and NE.
It wasn't "just one game," our rushing average was 20th (i.e. almost BOTTOM TEN) for the 2013 SEASON (i.e. 16 games, not just one.) A 3-13 'Skins team led us 21-7 in our own house until we benched JT for Dreessen just to have enough blocking to convert 4th and 1 twice, the Colts demolished our line, Manning was shut DOWN @*E (ironically, "just one game" with decent running out of a whole SEASON) and SD frustrated our high-flying offense all three times we played, handing us one of our mere 3 losses, nearly getting another thanks to yet another strip-sack and coming back to nearly force OT in the playoffs.
SINCE the SB it's been "just 21 games" where EVERY team has stifled our offense the same way Seattle did, because we still have NO run NOR pass blocking: It's just make Manning be one-man offense and call him a bum when he can't single-handedly beat the entire NFL. Our D is NOT that one-dimensional; we have an elite pass rush, and elite secondary, but ALSO have a stout run D that shut down Adrian Peterson and Jamaal Charles for all but ONE long run apiece (and stripped Charles twice, once at our goal line, then at theirs; I'll trade 1 TD for 2 any day.)
This team's not one-dimensional "right now," it's STILL one-dimensional, just like in 2014, 2013 and 2012. The only difference is the SB showed literally everyone on Earth what I'd been screaming about since Hillman managed all of 3 yds in as many carries (i.e. 1 yd/att) when we were trying to run out the clock in the playoffs vs. Baltimore. Hell, I'd been screaming about since McGahee and Moreno were getting the crap pounded out of them behind the line in 2011, when everyone said I was imagining it because we led the NFL in rushing thanks to McGahee leading the NFL in yards AFTER he got hit. Just like everyone said I was bonkers for claiming our low sack totals 2012-2014 didn't say jack about our line, because Manning was covering for them with pre-snap reads and quick release as he always did in Indy.
C'mon, folks, try to remember more than just highlight reels, and for more than a week or two. Blocking may not make NFL Red Zone and is hard to see anyway amid a mass of huge bodies, but is the most important thing that happens on offense, because without it even the best "skill positions" never have a CHANCE to do squat: Ask Manning. Or Elway; blocking was the difference between 55-10 and 34-19.
DenBronx
10-12-2015, 09:09 PM
Once again Joel, we were 20th in rushing because we were too busy slinging TDs and running up the score. Why do you fail to see that? Teams that did have a run game were wishing the could score like us. I think the Vikings or Chiefs would have gladly traded their running game for an overall offense like that and never look back.
Id also gladly take 20th rushing when we are bottoms feeders in the run game now.
I thought bringing in Kubes was really going to wow the run game.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-12-2015, 09:09 PM
I don't see anyone saying his skills haven't diminished. Can you point out those posts?
His skills have diminished which is why he needs more help than ever and not less.
I'm sorry dude, but I'm not gonna take the time to hunt down posts. There are some who are in denial about Payton not being the same guy he was 2 years ago.
pulse
10-12-2015, 09:09 PM
Oh just **** it. I've bought in...let the offense look like a pile of turds until the oline learns how to zone run block, then when December is here, control the damn clock and with this defense and only need Pey Pey to win it in the fourth if needed. Playoff football, bitches.. It's all a go.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-12-2015, 09:10 PM
Oh just **** it. I've bought in...let the offense look like a pile of turds until the oline learns how to zone run block, then when December is here, control the damn clock with this defense and only need Pey Pey to win it in the fourth if needed. Playoff football, bitches.. It's all a go.
Sing it?
Once again Joel, we were 20th in rushing because we were too busy slinging TDs and running up the score. Why do you fail to see that?
Id also gladly take 20th rushing when we are bottoms feeders in the run game now.
I thought bringing in Kubes was really going to wow the run game.
No, 20th in rushing AVERAGE: Yards PER ATTEMPT, which has NOTHING to do with how OFTEN we run, only how much we get when we DO. We threw far more than we passed 2 weeks ago, but stil posted a nice rushing average: Because Hillman had a 76 yd TD that boosted it. How often did that happen in 2013? In fact, HOW long did the commentators say it had been since we had a run that long? Like, 2009 wasn't it? Believe it or not, I think we were actually around 15th in rushing TOTAL in 2013; we had lots of huge leads, so we spent much of many second halves killing the clock. We just never GAINED much.
Oh just **** it. I've bought in...let the offense look like a pile of turds until the oline learns how to zone run block, then when December is here, control the damn clock and with this defense and only need Pey Pey to win it in the fourth if needed. Playoff football, bitches.. It's all a go.
What's our alternative? Throw Oz out there, hoping he's 1) elite, 2) has learned to read defenses from the bench despite NO first team practices till this year and 3) doesn't get decapitated when the line gives guys free shots within 2 seconds of the snap? It's October; we've no choice but to improve the line on the fly and hope we can get there by December: There's no midseason draft, and all decent FAs are taken.
It's a crying shame we didn't do this last year, or the year before, or the year before THAT instead of waiting till what's almost certainly Mannings LAST year and trying to assemble an entirely new line with an entirely new offense before the playoffs start. And it's aaaaall his fault for being a grampa; man, if I didn't call that in the 2012 offseason: Only thing missing is "once a choker, always a choker."
Tangerine
10-12-2015, 09:58 PM
We might not have the embarrassment of riches we had last year, but to say there's a lack of skill player talent is in no way accurate. We have an underpforming O-line and a QB who struggles to push the ball down the field. Teams this year are doing what Indy did last year.
I love Manning, but to deny that his skills have deminished a little is just well...
Eh, Manning has been "ok" at throwing it down the field. Manning has completed 4 of 14 (29%) passes over 20 yards, sounds rough, but by comparison Flacco with his strong arm, has completed 1 of 11 (9%) of passes over 20 yards. Matt Stafford, another strong armed QB, has completed 1 of 8 (13%) of those passes.
So... Manning has actually completed more long passes than Flacco and Stafford combined, if anybody can believe that.
Long passes are just low percentage plays whoever is throwing it. They have a lot more to do with timing than arm strength.
Manning's problem is the interceptions, they have got to find a running game to cut back on the passes and the interceptions.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-12-2015, 10:12 PM
Eh, Manning has been "ok" at throwing it down the field. Manning has completed 4 of 14 (29%) passes over 20 yards, sounds rough, but by comparison Flacco with his strong arm, has completed 1 of 11 (9%) of passes over 20 yards. Matt Stafford, another strong armed QB, has completed 1 of 8 (13%) of those passes.
So... Manning has actually completed more long passes than Flacco and Stafford combined, if anybody can believe that.
Long passes are just low percentage plays whoever is throwing it. They have a lot more to do with timing than arm strength.
Manning's problem is the interceptions, they have got to find a running game to cut back on the passes and the interceptions.
The stats might look good, but the throws dont.
The stats might look good, but the throws dont.
I'll take an ugly 29% over a pretty 9%, and he makes a good point. Heaven knows I've had enough people point out the "deep balls are low percentage" thing enough times when arguing against replacing safe reliable runs with 5 yd passes that go for no gain (i.e. incomplete) a third of the time, tackles for loss (i.e. 7-10 yd sacks instead of 2-3 yd stuffs) a tenth of the time and pick-sixes most times a DB jumps a rout at a dead sprint with NO ONE in front of him and the whole offense sprinting the other way. Seriously, everyone should pay attention to Mike Hawk.
Meanwhile: Sanders runs the 40 in 4.4 (WITHOUT pads) and our pass protection lasts 2-3 seconds at MOST; how's Manning supposed to complete a deep ball without hang time?
Simple Jaded
10-12-2015, 10:37 PM
The offense has collapsed because John Elway failed during the offseason. He brought in a coach that was going to change the entire identity of the offense, then he is hellbent on bringing Peyton Manning in, who can't move and is used to running his style and tells him things are going to change, he then goes out and basically completely ignores the entire oline, which is really the only thing that could save Peyton Manning. If he was so helbent on bringing Manning back he should have made the oline an absolute priority. If his plan was to ignore the oline through the change like he did, then why insist on bringing back Manning? Move on from him.
Just f'n stupid. We could finish this season with one of the most unique types of defenses ever seen in the NFL, and it's going to go completely wasted because nobody in this entire organization seems to have their shit together regarding the offense.
A 2nd round pick, a 4th round pick and an All-Pro free agent G is ignoring the OL?
Btw, did everybody see Mike Hawk? I like Mike Hawk, solid.
A 2nd round pick, a 4th round pick and an All-Pro free agent G is ignoring the OL?
Btw, did everybody see Mike Hawk? I like Mike Hawk, solid.
Well, yeah: EVERYBODY likes Mike Hawk. I still would've liked a linemen with our first rather than second pick, because the need was that urgent, but if they already knew Mathis wanted a chance at a Ring badly enough to come here cheap, that makes far more sense. They certainly didn't IGNORE the line (the contrast with previous seasons of doing that is too stark) even if they were a bit less aggressive than I'd like. If Clady hadn't torn his ACL we'd have THREE former All Pros starting, and could probably weather breaking in a 2nd year C and a rookie OT away from Mannings blindside.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-12-2015, 11:02 PM
I'll take an ugly 29% over a pretty 9%, and he makes a good point. Heaven knows I've had enough people point out the "deep balls are low percentage" thing enough times when arguing against replacing safe reliable runs with 5 yd passes that go for no gain (i.e. incomplete) a third of the time, tackles for loss (i.e. 7-10 yd sacks instead of 2-3 yd stuffs) a tenth of the time and pick-sixes most times a DB jumps a rout at a dead sprint with NO ONE in front of him and the whole offense sprinting the other way. Seriously, everyone should pay attention to Mike Hawk.
Meanwhile: Sanders runs the 40 in 4.4 (WITHOUT pads) and our pass protection lasts 2-3 seconds at MOST; how's Manning supposed to complete a deep ball without hang time?
Well done Joel. I've never heard the hang time argument before in the passing game. The throw you used that misplaced argument on was late, by the way. If he puts more mustard on it DT doesn't have to slow down at the sideline.
Yashahla17
10-13-2015, 12:49 AM
The stats might look good, but the throws dont.
Those 4 throws were all jump balls.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-13-2015, 12:50 AM
Those 4 throws were all jump balls.
You're preaching to the choir.
TXBRONC
10-13-2015, 07:15 AM
Oh just **** it. I've bought in...let the offense look like a pile of turds until the oline learns how to zone run block, then when December is here, control the damn clock and with this defense and only need Pey Pey to win it in the fourth if needed. Playoff football, bitches.. It's all a go.
:rockon:
Ravage!!!
10-13-2015, 10:23 AM
Its weird about that pass to DT that was intercepted. Because, I've pointed out that the reason Manning is having problems with the deep ball, right now, is because he can't put the same amount of arch on the ball as he used to and get it the same distance. The deep balls are flatter trojectory, making it more difficult for the WRs to "run under"..or to drop over the defender.
But on THAT pass, Manning had a high arch. Something we haven't seen him do all year in those passes. Considering we haven't seen that kind of arch on his passes all season, I wonder if it didn't just get away from him a little.
That isn't making excuses. I'm pointing out that Manning's deep ball is having a hard time because he just doesn't have the arm strength to throw with arch. The arch on that pass wasn't the problem, as you don't really throw that pass "on a rope" as Yash would try to make you believe. He was late on the throw, and it had TOO much arch on the ball. Was something definitely different as we haven't seen that ball all season.
silkamilkamonico
10-13-2015, 12:21 PM
A 2nd round pick, a 4th round pick and an All-Pro free agent G is ignoring the OL?
Well, to be fair, if that's the only thing you're quoting, you obviously haven't been paying attention to my argument.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.4 Release Candidate 2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.