At what point does Manning become more of a detriment to this team?

[Northman]

We actually had a semblance of a running game, the defense played very well but then two very bad Int's allowed the Vikings back into the game. I mean, dont get me wrong. Im happy being 4-0 but i start to get really nervous everytime Manning begins to pass the ball because i just dont know what we are going to get out of it. Something is still going on there, is anyone else concerned about this?

[Joel]

When we give him todays protection and run support two weeks straight but he's no better either time. He was terrible @NE in 2013, too, but the other 15 games combined for the best season passing stats EVER. He was terrible most of the first two months of 2012, then turned 28-0 into 39-28 in a divisional road game and never looked back again. The question is whether passes like the one he stepped into and rifled so it was caught on the run and advanced to Minnesotas red zone to start the second half are the trend, and the 2 Ints the anomaly, or the other way 'round. If the line congeals, we'll know soon.

It's worth noting our first or second drive v. Minnesota essentially ended because they sent yet another A Gap blitz and he rushed an off target throw deep over the middle, clearly not expecting Hillman to pick up the free rusher: Hillman DID pick him up, and Manning was never touched, but the way our line's been for so long, would YOU have expected that in his place? It's still possible that once he KNOWS he can count on his line, we can count on him again; it's certainly much harder for him to cover them while still learing Kubiaks playbook with half practices rather than with reflexive hot reads out of his OWN.

[Slick]

History shows us that he doesn't get better as the season goes on. If this is the best Manning has left, Denver is in trouble. 4-0 is great but I still don't feel good about this team other than the defense and kicking game.

[CrazyHorse]

I think we're stuck riding Manning through the season whether we like it or not. Maybe Manning gets "hurt" and Oz steps in so we can see what we have with him. Those picks were pretty bad though even if MN has a good defense.

[CrazyHorse]

When we give him todays protection and run support two weeks straight but he's no better either time. He was terrible @NE in 2013, too, but the other 15 games combined for the best season passing stats EVER. He was terrible most of the first two months of 2012, then turned 28-0 into 39-28 in a divisional road game and never looked back again. The question is whether passes like the one he stepped into and rifled so it was caught on the run and advanced to Minnesotas red zone to start the second half are the trend, and the 2 Ints the anomaly, or the other way 'round. If the line congeals, we'll know soon.

I think the past few games have shown it's a trend. Maybe he shakes it off and destroys the Raiders. Let's hope so. I'm still holding out hope that it's him adjusting to the new offense. I thought it would take around 6 games.

[ShaneFalco]

he needs his white slot wr.

Sign Collie or Welker. :)

[CrazyHorse]

he needs his white slot wr.

Sign Collie or Welker. :)

Collie. Welker is one hit from being in a wheel chair.

[I Eat Staples]

Not a lot left in the tank for Peyton.

He just has to stop throwing picks. We don't need traditional Peyton numbers when we have this defense, especially if we start to run it a little better. He just has to make some plays on 3rd downs and play smart football. If he stops trying to do too much and gets rid of the mistakes, he'll be fine.

[Northman]

I think we're stuck riding Manning through the season whether we like it or not. Maybe Manning gets "hurt" and Oz steps in so we can see what we have with him. Those picks were pretty bad though even if MN has a good defense.

Yea, the first one was a poor read and the second one was a clear overthrow. I just hate that they came at the worst times when the defense had forced the Minny offense off the field. I can live with the offense just being sluggish, but the turnovers just put way too much pressure on the defense.

[CrazyHorse]

Not a lot left in the tank for Peyton.

He just has to stop throwing picks. We don't need traditional Peyton numbers when we have this defense, especially if we start to run it a little better. He just has to make some plays on 3rd downs and play smart football. If he stops trying to do too much and gets rid of the mistakes, he'll be fine.

Game manager Peyton. Hey, it won Brady 3 Super Bowls.

[BroncoWave]

I think we are at that point. He's probably still a marginally better option than Brock (although who knows at this point) but I think we are now winning games in spite of him. He wasn't really pressured all that badly today and he still was just wildly inaccurate. Even many of his completions were great catches on throws that were slightly off.

It seems like at some point the other shoe is going to drop and the D won't be able to pull our asses out of the fire every week. I guess we will see.

[tripp]

I felt a lot better after the Lions game than I do about the Vikings game.

[DenBronx]

he needs his white slot wr.

Sign Collie or Welker. :)

Collie. Welker is one hit from being in a wheel chair.


Dramatic much

[Joel]

I think the past few games have shown it's a trend. Maybe he shakes it off and destroys the Raiders. Let's hope so.
The protection was terrible the first two games (against a ton of elite pass rushers) and little better @Detroit, while the running was the worst I've ever seen. Seriously, a 2.6 yd SEASON rushing average?

That let every team tee off on Manning to the exclusion of all other irrelevancies (i.e. our pitiful running game,) either by sending the house every down, dropping 6-7 guys just behind the line to cover short routes, or both. Few QBs could succeed at any age, even with an unfused spine and a cheetahs speed and agility. Today he had time and (eventually) good enough running we didn't live in 2nd and 11 or 3rd and 8: He had a lot of great throws, but also still had too many awful ones, two of which nearly cost us the game despite everything else going right.

My question is whether that's just because of age or partly because he doesn't yet trust the line to be there for him consistently, since it was so consistently MIA so long. So next week's pretty huge, IMHO.

[CrazyHorse]

Dramatic much

Yes, hyperbole.


The protection was terrible the first two games (against a ton of elite pass rushers) and little better @Detroit, while the running was the worst I've ever seen. Seriously, a 2.6 yd SEASON rushing average?

That let every team tee off on Manning to the exclusion of all other irrelevancies (i.e. our pitiful running game,) either by sending the house every down, dropping 6-7 guys just behind the line to cover short routes, or both. Few QBs could succeed at any age, even with an unfused spine and a cheetahs speed and agility. Today he had time and (eventually) good enough running we didn't live in 2nd and 11 or 3rd and 8: He had a lot of great throws, but also still had too many awful ones, two of which nearly cost us the game despite everything else going right.

My question is whether that's just because of age or partly because he doesn't yet trust the line to be there for him consistently, since it was so consistently MIA so long. So next week's pretty huge, IMHO.

He faces Kahlil Mack and Aldon Smith. Our offense line sucked in the Super Bowl and he had the same type of game he's having now.

[TXBRONC]

Collie. Welker is one hit from being in a wheel chair.

Collie is no better shape. Fowler can do the job.

[weazel]

I can take the picks here and there but it's the immobility as well, there's no buying time when the only reaction to a blitz is to fall to the ground.

[Joel]

He faces Kahlil Mack and Aldon Smith.
Smith's legit, of course (if his head's back in the game) but I'm still not convinced of Mack. Nor Del Rio. ;) No NFL game's a gimme though, so it's a valid additional data point. If we give up 4-5 sacks and run for <2.2 yds/att again, I won't take the results of one-man offense as proof of anything except what a bad idea it is for ANY one man to challenge an entire team. But if his pocket's as comfy as todays and we move the ball like today only to have him throw it away like today, then we'll have a serious problem.



Our offense line sucked in the Super Bowl and he had the same type of game he's having now.

Which is precisely what I PREDICTED would happen with run blockers too weak to knock down my gramma (even though she's dead) and pass protectors so slow-footed Mannings pre-snap reads and quick release had been keeping their sack totals low all season. Again, not a reflection on Manning; he DID post (by far) the best passers season EVER. But he doesn't have Chris Clark giving up three strip-sacks in as many games now, nor Beadles getting shoved around buy everyone bigger than a DB, nor Franklin tripping over his own feet. If he STILL looks that bad with a much improved line, he's the problem.

[Slick]

I can take the picks here and there but it's the immobility as well, there's no buying time when the only reaction to a blitz is to fall to the ground.

It's not his fault! He's trying to preserve himself! Being critical of him means you don't know football.

[DenBronx]

I dont want to hear about Mack, Tuck and Smith or anyone else on the raiders defense...blah blah blah.

Through these first 4 games we have faced the leagues toughest defenses. We are going to royally smack the raiders so hard that the black hole will be renamed to the brown hole.

[CrazyHorse]

I can take the picks here and there but it's the immobility as well, there's no buying time when the only reaction to a blitz is to fall to the ground.

I've seen him gain a couple seconds by avoiding blitzes with his feet this season. It's not the norm and it usually involves accurately diagnosing the defense and knowing where the free rushers are coming from.

[I Eat Staples]

Through these first 4 games we have faced the leagues toughest defenses.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not...

[Joel]

I can take the picks here and there but it's the immobility as well, there's no buying time when the only reaction to a blitz is to fall to the ground.
Manning's actually shown a decent amount of mobility in most games this season; even Lynch today made a comment about him "climbing the pocket" to avoid pressure, and he rolled away from pressure a few times also. The problem may be he's thinking more about THAT and less about coverage and routes than at any time since he was a rookie, and the result is the many bad reads/throws. If that IS the case, he's just gonna have to do what someone suggested in our first game: Trust his line. If it's more than that, there's probably nothing he can do but retire.

[BroncoWave]

If you think about it, we are potentially 3 last-minute miracle turnovers away from being 1-3, and that is in large part due to Manning's play thus far. It's awesome that the defense has been able to bail us out like they have, but I don't know how sustainable that is. Eventually some of these lousy offensive performances are going to catch up to us. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy to be 4-0, but it feels like a shaky 4-0. I think we will really find out how good this team is when we play the Pats and Packers. That will tell us a lot.

[ShaneFalco]

tebow time

[Simple Jaded]

Enjoy it while it lasts folks, week after week you're stuck on 1 or 2 throws that hurt and a few others you just didn't like. The offense is getting better little by little but nobody promised us 2013.

[Slick]

Enjoy it while it lasts folks, week after week you're stuck on 1 or 2 throws that hurt and a few others you just didn't like. The offense is getting better little by little but nobody promised us 2013.

Are you illiterate? Only about 6 posters are enjoying being 4-0. The rest of us are miserable sob's.

[aberdien]

If we had a RB worth a damn I'd be less worried, but since we don't, I don't expect a whole lot of change in offensive performance.

[Joel]

If you think about it, we are potentially 3 last-minute miracle turnovers away from being 1-3, and that is in large part due to Manning's play thus far. It's awesome that the defense has been able to bail us out like they have, but I don't know how sustainable that is. Eventually some of these lousy offensive performances are going to catch up to us. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy to be 4-0, but it feels like a shaky 4-0. I think we will really find out how good this team is when we play the Pats and Packers. That will tell us a lot.

Yeah, had that GB game circled a while; gonna be the longest bye EVER. And yeah, we're only a handful of defensive turnovers from a losing record; I thought about that every time we forced a fumble from that one Minnesota WR only to have him quickly fall on it before any of the D could get there. It kept feeling like we were gonna lose a game we DOMINATED, all because Manning threw it away TWICE and the D couldn't get ANY turnovers this time, despite their best efforts (and they were trying to strip Peterson no later than Minnesotas second drive.)

Something had to give, and it has, in the protection and line surge markedly improving. But we can't afford Manning instantly negating all that improvement with a single ill-advised or off-target Int.

[NightTerror218]

Is it bad I saw some highlight passes by Andy Dalton and sighed because Manning will never make those throws?

[Simple Jaded]

Are you illiterate? Only about 6 posters are enjoying being 4-0. The rest of us are miserable sob's.

Was it something I said?

My point is ya'll might be in for a rude awakening when this turns out to be as good as it gets.

[BroncoWave]

Is it bad I saw some highlight passes by Andy Dalton and sighed because Manning will never make those throws?

I'd def take Dalton over Manning at this point. Words I never thought would come from my keyboard.

[Timmy!]

:drinking:

:lol:

:shots:

4-0

:pop2:

[Slick]

Was it something I said?

My point is ya'll might be in for a rude awakening when this turns out to be as good as it gets.

I know this is as good as it gets. Manning's history only re-inforces it. He does not get stronger as the season goes on. That's exactly why people are bitching when the team is 4-0.

[Simple Jaded]

I know this is as good as it gets. Manning's history only re-inforces it. He does not get stronger as the season goes on. That's exactly why people are bitching when the team is 4-0.

Point is you're bitching when this version of Peyton Manning might be the best QB they have for a long time.

Btw, we've seen far worse QB's than the Manning we see now, amirite?

[Joel]

It's worth noting that this time last year many people—including those PAID for the service—openly wondered if BRADY was done because he looked so awful playing behind a young patchwork line in progress. Just a few months later, he "won" another SB (i.e. to the extent he's WON any) and the consensus said he'd play at an elite level indefinitely; now he's a god because he hangs 50 pts on great teams like the Jags while Manning struggles against mere All Pro pass rushers and HoF RBs.

Lynch trotted out several of my favorite lines today, but perhaps the most telling was that "Denvers offensive linemen are still learning each others names." That's only slightly hyperbolic; Mathis has been on the team all of 5 weeks, and Schofield got his first NFL snaps EVER today. Add to that learning a whole new system, and Manning doing it while splitting practice time when he's NEVER done that. The line's already improved and can only get better; Brady was magically rejuvenated when his line learned to stop A Gap blitzes and post 100 yd rushing games, so maybe Manning will be, too.

One thing we should've all learned long ago: NFL predictions at the end of September are just short of worthless.

[CrazyHorse]

It's worth noting that this time last year many people—including those PAID for the service—openly wondered if BRADY was done because he looked so awful playing behind a young patchwork line in progress. Just a few months later, he "won" another SB (i.e. to the extent he's WON any) and the consensus said he'd play at an elite level indefinitely; now he's a god because he hangs 50 pts on great teams like the Jags while Manning struggles against mere All Pro pass rushers and HoF RBs.

Lynch trotted out several of my favorite lines today, but perhaps the most telling was that "Denvers offensive linemen are still learning each others names." That's only slightly hyperbolic; Mathis has been on the team all of 5 weeks, and Schofield got his first NFL snaps EVER today. Add to that learning a whole new system, and Manning doing it while splitting practice time when he's NEVER done that. The line's already improved and can only get better; Brady was magically rejuvenated when his line learned to stop A Gap blitzes and post 100 yd rushing games, so maybe Manning will be, too.

One thing we should've all learned long ago: NFL predictions at the end of September are just short of worthless.

Albeit a Super Bowl against a banged up Seattle team that still should have won. Wish we were afforded that opportunity 2 years ago. Instead we were the banged up team.

[ShaneFalco]

Point is you're bitching when this version of Peyton Manning might be the best QB they have for a long time.

Btw, we've seen far worse QB's than the Manning we see now, amirite?
jay cutler? kyle orton????

Definitely not timothy richard tebow.

[Joel]

Albeit a Super Bowl against a banged up Seattle team that still should have won. Wish we were afforded that opportunity 2 years ago. Instead we were the banged up team.
Yeah, but most of our bangs were on a D (where LITERALLY HALF OUR STARTERS were out) that played so well even Elway rightly said they kept us in the game; our offense was "only" missing Clady. What killed us was a one-dimensional offense that couldn't protect its QB, and we're still struggling to overcome just how BAD that AFC Champ line was. Sorry, I can't help stressing that point at every opportunity. :redface:

Anyway, yeah, Seattle "wins" that game if Carroll doesn't outsmart himself, but it's not like NE got there on a conference bye; they still had to beat Baltimore and Indy, and even the first (at home) proved a huge challenge that wouldn't have been possible had Brady truly been as washed up as so many claimed in October. Has-beens don't come back from 2 TD deficits in the playoffs, let alone TWICE in the same GAME, against a solid D like Baltimores. The Seahawks were the better cheats, but only just, despite being good at it to beat a VERY good GB team in the NFCCG, even if they needed luck and bad GB coaching.

If the last SB weren't as tainted as EVERY *riots win it would've been a HoF worthy game for Brady, along with most of last year and all of this one so far. Even though THIS time last year people were saying the same things about him as they now say about Manning, and quite possibly for similar reasons that have nothing to do with either QB except as victim rather than perpetrator.

[Simple Jaded]

jay cutler? kyle orton????

Definitely not timothy richard tebow.

All of the above.

[Slick]

Point is you're bitching when this version of Peyton Manning might be the best QB they have for a long time.

Btw, we've seen far worse QB's than the Manning we see now, amirite?

If this is the best Denver is going to be able to do at QB for a long time, I should probably quit watching the Broncos.

I don't think Elway would let that happen. If Brock or whoever comes in next year and sucks, Elway would mortgage a ton of picks to move up and get a guy to lead the team to the promised land. He's not going to sit back and watch mediocrity.

This is exactly why I don't post a whole lot in Bronco Talk lately. I know I sound like a whiny bitch and I hate myself for it.

[broncobryce]

While we're at it start Hillman as well. I'm ready for Osweiler and Hillman. I like CJ, but he seems slow and indecisive this year.

[broncobryce]

It's worth noting that this time last year many people—including those PAID for the service—openly wondered if BRADY was done because he looked so awful playing behind a young patchwork line in progress. Just a few months later, he "won" another SB (i.e. to the extent he's WON any) and the consensus said he'd play at an elite level indefinitely; now he's a god because he hangs 50 pts on great teams like the Jags while Manning struggles against mere All Pro pass rushers and HoF RBs.

Lynch trotted out several of my favorite lines today, but perhaps the most telling was that "Denvers offensive linemen are still learning each others names." That's only slightly hyperbolic; Mathis has been on the team all of 5 weeks, and Schofield got his first NFL snaps EVER today. Add to that learning a whole new system, and Manning doing it while splitting practice time when he's NEVER done that. The line's already improved and can only get better; Brady was magically rejuvenated when his line learned to stop A Gap blitzes and post 100 yd rushing games, so maybe Manning will be, too.

One thing we should've all learned long ago: NFL predictions at the end of September are just short of worthless.

Really smart post. Major props to you.

[tripp]

This is the worst game Manning has played in recent memory. The 4th quarter pick was so far off, I'm not sure who it was even intended to (DT I think?). The other INT in the 1st half was poorly thrown too, but atleast we could identify who it was meant for. The accuracy wasn't good, not by any stretch. I could be wrong but, the glove he wears, does that help his accuracy? I noticed his velocity increases without it, but at this point.. I think I'll take accuracy over velocity if it means he doesn't throw 2 INT's to put teams back into the game.

What bugs me the most is when the Broncos aren't doing very well under the "Kubiak system" they resort to some kind of other system the 2nd half when they decide to "try to win the game". I understand Kubiak is trying to install his system to familiarize players with it for the coming years, but at what point do you decide to shake things up permanently and go back to what was working for the past couple of years (Manning's style of offense). Maybe it's too late to go back to it, or maybe Kubiak is too stubborn with his system to abandon it. But like someone else said earlier, I'm having a hard time believing our Defense can sustain this kind of tempo throughout the season. At some point, the offense is going to have to bail the defense out. Today didn't feel like a good win only because I know what we're *capable* of on Offense. Not sure if I'm buying the whole "work in progress" thing.

[broncobryce]

The thing I feel good about is we are winning tough. That's what it takes to win the superbowl.

[Simple Jaded]

If this is the best Denver is going to be able to do at QB for a long time, I should probably quit watching the Broncos.

I don't think Elway would let that happen. If Brock or whoever comes in next year and sucks, Elway would mortgage a ton of picks to move up and get a guy to lead the team to the promised land. He's not going to sit back and watch mediocrity.

This is exactly why I don't post a whole lot in Bronco Talk lately. I know I sound like a whiny bitch and I hate myself for it.

What I'm saying is Manning isn't nearly the hack y'all are making to be.

[I Eat Staples]

Manning is playing at an Orton level. As in, not completely atrocious, but more than a little underwhelming.

So no, he really isn't better than recent Broncos QBs other than Tebow. The only reason the perception is anything different is because he's Peyton Manning.

[Simple Jaded]

The only reason the perception is anything different is because he's Peyton Manning.

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing.

[I Eat Staples]

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing.

Touché.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I think there are too many young fans pressing some imaginary panic button. I'm guessing there aren't a lot of guys here who were fans during Elway's prime. Most of our games were extremely similar to the way we are winning now.

This isn't Madden and it isn't the arena football league. We knew, or some of us did, that there would be some growing pains with the new system. I'd still rather have Manning than 22 other QBs in the league. Points don't always come in buckets and defenses are getting the best of offenses regularly this season. There are also more penalties being handed out this year than ever before.

Yep, he made some poor throws today and got picked twice. We still won the damned game largely because when we needed it most, he delivered. Manning took a pay cut, had to learn a new system, and now is playing behind a makeshift Oline that is still learning too. How many other QBs with his resume would've done that?

Believe it or not, each game in this league is tough. These are professional football players. These same Vikings beat the crap outta SD. Every week is different and you can't bank on anything from week to week. If anyone here thinks Brock would somehow be an improvement right now, I think you're out of your mind.

When Peyton does go, we're going to look like we did back after Elway retired. The Packers were a .500 team Rodgers' first year as a starter. Not every win can be a blowout. It's nice to finally have a team that can defend a lead and win, not that has to score 40 pts a week just to squeak by. I'm happy with our 4-0. Either we'll improve or we won't, but complaining about the method of being 4-0 is crazy.

[BroncoWave]

I think there are too many young fans pressing some imaginary panic button. I'm guessing there aren't a lot of guys here who were fans during Elway's prime. Most of our games were extremely similar to the way we are winning now.

This isn't Madden and it isn't the arena football league. We knew, or some of us did, that there would be some growing pains with the new system. I'd still rather have Manning than 22 other QBs in the league. Points don't always come in buckets and defenses are getting the best of offenses regularly this season. There are also more penalties being handed out this year than ever before.

Yep, he made some poor throws today and got picked twice. We still won the damned game largely because when we needed it most, he delivered. Manning took a pay cut, had to learn a new system, and now is playing behind a makeshift Oline that is still learning too. How many other QBs with his resume would've done that?

Believe it or not, each game in this league is tough. These are professional football players. These same Vikings beat the crap outta SD. Every week is different and you can't bank on anything from week to week. If anyone here thinks Brock would somehow be an improvement right now, I think you're out of your mind.

When Peyton does go, we're going to look like we did back after Elway retired. The Packers were a .500 team Rodgers' first year as a starter. Not every won can be a blowout. It's nice to finally have a team that can defend a lead and win, not that has to score 40 pts a week just to squeak by. I'm happy with our 4-0. Either we'll improve or we won't, but complaining about the method of being 4-0 is crazy.

You should be a little more condescending to those of us with a different opinion than you on this.

[Dzone]

Manning is playing at an Orton level. As in, not completely atrocious, but more than a little underwhelming.

So no, he really isn't better than recent Broncos QBs other than Tebow. The only reason the perception is anything different is because he's Peyton Manning.

Seriously? Orton?

[ShaneFalco]

i got faith in manning still.

[BroncoWave]

Seriously? Orton?

I mean, he's not too far off. Take the nameplate off, and his play this season is pretty indistinguishable form Orton's as a Bronco, fainting goat sacks and all. The only difference now is we have a good enough defense to bail us out in these games.

[gregbroncs]

We actually had a semblance of a running game, the defense played very well but then two very bad Int's allowed the Vikings back into the game. I mean, dont get me wrong. Im happy being 4-0 but i start to get really nervous everytime Manning begins to pass the ball because i just dont know what we are going to get out of it. Something is still going on there, is anyone else concerned about this?Yes I worry about this. He almost cost us this game on 2 very bad plays. No excuse about protection in this game he had time consistently this game. He had a running game this game. He had receiver's open this game. I'm starting to become very concerned about our offense and specifically our QB.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I think there are too many young fans pressing some imaginary panic button. I'm guessing there aren't a lot of guys here who were fans during Elway's prime. Most of our games were extremely similar to the way we are winning now.

This isn't Madden and it isn't the arena football league. We knew, or some of us did, that there would be some growing pains with the new system. I'd still rather have Manning than 22 other QBs in the league. Points don't always come in buckets and defenses are getting the best of offenses regularly this season. There are also more penalties being handed out this year than ever before.

Yep, he made some poor throws today and got picked twice. We still won the damned game largely because when we needed it most, he delivered. Manning took a pay cut, had to learn a new system, and now is playing behind a makeshift Oline that is still learning too. How many other QBs with his resume would've done that?

Believe it or not, each game in this league is tough. These are professional football players. These same Vikings beat the crap outta SD. Every week is different and you can't bank on anything from week to week. If anyone here thinks Brock would somehow be an improvement right now, I think you're out of your mind.

When Peyton does go, we're going to look like we did back after Elway retired. The Packers were a .500 team Rodgers' first year as a starter. Not every won can be a blowout. It's nice to finally have a team that can defend a lead and win, not that has to score 40 pts a week just to squeak by. I'm happy with our 4-0. Either we'll improve or we won't, but complaining about the method of being 4-0 is crazy.

You should be a little more condescending to those of us with a different opinion than you on this.

It wasn't meant to be condescending but I don't think a lot of guys are really looking at our record for how hard it is to be 4-0. I think Madden and fantasy football has corrupted the idea that the better team doesn't always blowout the other team. The players are human and make mistakes. Everyone has bad days at work from time to time.

I don't hear many Packers fans complaining about only scoring 17 points against a pathetic 49ers team that AZ hung a 40 burger on the week before. I think we've gotten spoiled on having a high powered offense. I'd rather have a high powered defense and an offense that can score enough points to win. Stats are for losers. The only stat that matters is wins and losses.

[BroncoWave]

It wasn't meant to be condescending but I don't think a lot of guys are really looking at our record for how hard it is to be 4-0. I think Madden and fantasy football has corrupted the idea that the better team doesn't always blowout the other team. The players are human and make mistakes. Everyone has bad days at work from time to time.

I don't hear many Packers fans complaining about only scoring 17 points against a pathetic 49ers team that AZ hung a 40 burger on the week before. I think we've gotten spoiled on having a high powered offense. I'd rather have a high powered defense and an offense that can score enough points to win. Stats are for losers. The only stat that matters is wins and losses.

Yeah, because we have never had teams start out 4-0, 5-0, 6-0, then fizzle out at the end of the year. Just because we are undefeated doesn't mean we can just gloss over all the things that could cost us games later on.

But hey, if you think pulling games out at the last minute on turnovers every week is a sustainable strategy to keep on winning, more power to you.

[wayninja]

The season isn't over. As long as Manning gets us to the endzone when it matters, I don't care that we aren't the 2013 juggernaut. This is what a balanced team is supposed to look like, isn't it?

[BroncoWave]

The season isn't over. As long as Manning gets us to the endzone when it matters, I don't care that we aren't the 2013 juggernaut. This is what a balanced team is supposed to look like, isn't it?

Hey, if our defense can keep pulling our ass out of the fire all the way to a Lombardi trophy, sign me up. I just don't know how sustainable it is. For now, the D has been incredibly healthy. But what happens if they start to wear down or start racking up injuries? Can the offense pick up the slack enough for us to keep winning games? Hopefully we never find out the answer to that question, but it's a legitimate one to ask.

[I Eat Staples]

Seriously? Orton?

Well I don't think Orton is the all-time worst, bane of the QB position like some of you guys do. If I had compared him to Alex Smith, now THAT would be insulting...

But seriously, look at Wave's thread about the paces our players are on. Projecting the stats out over the course of the season, Manning's stats look like a typical Orton year...and not even his best one.

[wayninja]

Hey, if our defense can keep pulling our ass out of the fire all the way to a Lombardi trophy, sign me up. I just don't know how sustainable it is. For now, the D has been incredibly healthy. But what happens if they start to wear down or start racking up injuries? Can the offense pick up the slack enough for us to keep winning games? Hopefully we never find out the answer to that question, but it's a legitimate one to ask.

It's sustainable as long as it keeps happening. Hopefully it won't be necessary every week. Hopefully when it is necessary, it happens.

Again, making plays on both sides of the ball is the goal. The offense has made me more and more optimistic as we've gotten going, and the defense remains solid. If they stay solid and offense keeps gellin', I think we'll be poised for a pretty good run.

[CrazyHorse]

Guys, it could be much worse. We could have Andrew Luck as our starting QB.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

What I'm saying is Manning isn't nearly the hack y'all are making to be.

I don't think he's a hack. I just don't think he's as effective as he was 2 years ago. I think there's a noticeable difference. But he doest need to be that guy anymore. If he can play like a top 10 QB we can win the sb. The problem is he hasn't played like a top 10 QB.

[Simple Jaded]

I don't think he's a hack. I just don't think he's as effective as he was 2 years ago. I think there's a noticeable difference. But he doest need to be that guy anymore. If he can play like a top 10 QB we can win the sb. The problem is he hasn't played like a top 10 QB.

There's nothing about the offense that's Top 10, yet.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

There's nothing about the offense that's Top 10, yet.

I'm pretty sure we're top ten on INT's and pick sixes.

[OrangeHoof]

is anyone else concerned about this?

I will when they start mentioning wind chill factors in the pre-games. Right now, I'm not. What Manning lacks is some better blocking and one more weapon to throw to.

[CrazyHorse]

I will when they start mentioning wind chill factors in the pre-games. Right now, I'm not. What Manning lacks is some better blocking and one more weapon to throw to.

Fowler is coming along nicely. By then we should be leaning on the running game, with Manning complimenting it. At least that's how it's supposed to work.

[Simple Jaded]

I'm pretty sure we're top ten on INT's and pick sixes.

Lmmfao.

Touchè. Well played.

[JPPT1974]

I keep worrying that Peyton this year will throw more INT's than TD's which he rarely has done since his rookie year.

[MOtorboat]

I keep worrying that Peyton this year will throw more INT's than TD's which he rarely has done since his rookie year.

*Hasn't done since his rookie year and isn't on pace to do this year.

[Northman]

Point is you're bitching when this version of Peyton Manning might be the best QB they have for a long time.

Btw, we've seen far worse QB's than the Manning we see now, amirite?


Not so sure, 6 Td's to 5 Ints are basically Jay Cutler type numbers. If this was any QB besides Manning would he be getting a pass from people? I dont think so. You are probably right though, this is as good as its going to get. Manning just isnt going to get any better so all we can do is hope that the rest of the team can bail out the turnover machine this year. I think the smartest move that we can make is force Manning to actually play Dilfer ball and limit his mistakes. It will be frustrating to watch but we should be able to ride the defense as long as it stays healthy.

[Northman]

If this is the best Denver is going to be able to do at QB for a long time, I should probably quit watching the Broncos.

I don't think Elway would let that happen. If Brock or whoever comes in next year and sucks, Elway would mortgage a ton of picks to move up and get a guy to lead the team to the promised land. He's not going to sit back and watch mediocrity.

This is exactly why I don't post a whole lot in Bronco Talk lately. I know I sound like a whiny bitch and I hate myself for it.

Frankly there is nothing wrong with what you feel or have said. Manning was brought in here and paid a lot of money to play better than he has. If other people dont like your opinions to bad.

[Northman]

I think there are too many young fans pressing some imaginary panic button. I'm guessing there aren't a lot of guys here who were fans during Elway's prime. Most of our games were extremely similar to the way we are winning now.

This isn't Madden and it isn't the arena football league. We knew, or some of us did, that there would be some growing pains with the new system. I'd still rather have Manning than 22 other QBs in the league. Points don't always come in buckets and defenses are getting the best of offenses regularly this season. There are also more penalties being handed out this year than ever before.

Yep, he made some poor throws today and got picked twice. We still won the damned game largely because when we needed it most, he delivered. Manning took a pay cut, had to learn a new system, and now is playing behind a makeshift Oline that is still learning too. How many other QBs with his resume would've done that?

Believe it or not, each game in this league is tough. These are professional football players. These same Vikings beat the crap outta SD. Every week is different and you can't bank on anything from week to week. If anyone here thinks Brock would somehow be an improvement right now, I think you're out of your mind.

When Peyton does go, we're going to look like we did back after Elway retired. The Packers were a .500 team Rodgers' first year as a starter. Not every win can be a blowout. It's nice to finally have a team that can defend a lead and win, not that has to score 40 pts a week just to squeak by. I'm happy with our 4-0. Either we'll improve or we won't, but complaining about the method of being 4-0 is crazy.


Well, im not that young so im not sure who you are referring to. Ive watched the entire Elway era and while there were some bad moments Elway never had a defense like this. As i stated in the original post, im happy being 4-0 and i think guys such as yourself are missing that point everytime someone makes that clear. But there are areas of concern even if people think there isnt.

[BroncoWave]

FWIW, here is a comparison of Orton's stats through 4 games in 2011 when we benched him, and Manning through 4 games now:

Orton: 85/142 (59.8%), 945 yds, 8 TD, 6 INT

Manning: 98/154 (63.6%), 968 yds, 6 TD, 5 INT

Those numbers are almost identical. This isn't to say we should bench Manning or that he is now on the exact same level as Orton, but I think he's closer to that level now than some people want to admit. Honestly, the only difference between that team being 1-3 (which we easily could be now), and us being 4-0 is our defense this year compared to that year.

[Northman]

It wasn't meant to be condescending but I don't think a lot of guys are really looking at our record for how hard it is to be 4-0. I think Madden and fantasy football has corrupted the idea that the better team doesn't always blowout the other team. The players are human and make mistakes. Everyone has bad days at work from time to time.

I don't hear many Packers fans complaining about only scoring 17 points against a pathetic 49ers team that AZ hung a 40 burger on the week before. I think we've gotten spoiled on having a high powered offense. I'd rather have a high powered defense and an offense that can score enough points to win. Stats are for losers. The only stat that matters is wins and losses.

For me its not even about being high powered, its about better decision making and whether Manning has the ability at this stage in his life to make the plays that Denver needs just to sustain drives. If anything, i would like for this offense to be able to spell the defense enough so that they arent staying on the field for most of the game. As i stated before, i can live with a low scoring offense. But the turnovers are a major problem and allow teams to stay back in the game. I just think sooner or later those turnovers are going to cost us. No offense, but if we are just going to accept terrible play from our QB we might as well just roll with Brock and get him the necessary experience going forward because frankly the way Manning is playing is no better to me. IMO

[wayninja]

FWIW, here is a comparison of Orton's stats through 4 games in 2011 when we benched him, and Manning through 4 games now:

Orton: 85/142 (59.8%), 945 yds, 8 TD, 6 INT

Manning: 98/154 (63.6%), 968 yds, 6 TD, 5 INT

Those numbers are almost identical. This isn't to say we should bench Manning or that he is now on the exact same level as Orton, but I think he's closer to that level now than some people want to admit. Honestly, the only difference between that team being 1-3 (which we easily could be now), and us being 4-0 is our defense this year compared to that year.


I've been told that our defense was awesome that year too. Or it least it was after Orton was benched.

[NightTerror218]

I have faith in Manning until his TOs go up and has multiple INTs a game and when he can't even game manage and score.

[BroncoJoe]

I have faith in Manning until his TOs go up and has multiple INTs a game and when he can't even game manage and score.

He's had a "multiple TO" game. He's thrown at least one in every game so far this year.

[NightTerror218]

He's had a "multiple TO" game. He's thrown at least one in every game so far this year.

But we have not lost because of it.

But if it starts to become routine.

[Timmy!]

For as shaky as the offense has looked all season, every time they absolutely had to score, they have. I'll take it. 18 had a shit game, and the picks were uncharacteristically really dumb decisions by Peyton, thus shit game, it happens to everybody sometimes. For as much ass as the defense has kicked, they did give up a 97 yard touchdown drive in the 4th, but made a play at the end when they had too, just like the offense did to put the team up 3. We actually ended up negative on turnover ratio and still won. I expected these new system growing pains, what I didn't expect is a team that has found a way to win every week, when they very well could have lost. That's what championship teams do. I will take a battle tested team in January over a team that hasn't had to win close games every time.

[NightTrainLayne]

Going into the season, I really thought we might be 2-2 at this point.

I thought our offense would suffer due to the system/coaching changes.

The offense probably looks worse than I expected, but the defense is playing better than expected. Really, the defense is just playing lights out.

If that can continue, and if the offense can build on what they're doing, we have a chance at January success.

What is likely to happen, imo, is that both sides of the ball will regress to the mean. The defense won't be able to keep up this pace, but at the same time the offense will improve.

Prior to the season I did not have any delusions about Super Bowl wins. Even though we're 4-0, my feeling regarding big playoff or SB success has not improved.

I'm just going to enjoy the wins we get as they come, and try and enjoy Manning's swan song. I don't see him coming back for another season at this rate.

[Buff]

I still think Manning is too physically limited to take us to the promised land - but you have to give Elway & Wade credit, this roster is so much better equipped at giving us a chance than the offensive-led teams.

Elway's philosophy is spot-on: "The way I saw it, if you’re good on defense, you always have a chance.” http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/09/30/denver-broncos-defense-john-elway-architect-nfl-mailbag

We could have played the Seattle Super Bowl 100 times, and lost 90 of them, because we were just overmatched. This year I don't get the sense that we're papering over as many deficiencies - it's kind of what you see is what you get.

[MasterShake]

Good points by both Timmy and NTL.

I'm in the same boat, I thought we could very well be a 2-2 team going into the first 4 games while our offense found its footing and the defense held us up. Instead the defense has kept us in games and outright won them and the offense has done just enough to score points when it matters. Down 14 after a Pick 6 in KC Manning had a great gut check drive, and I thought the go ahead Field Goal drive in the last game was really good.

We can bring up comparisons to Orton I suppose, but Manning and Orton should not even be uttered in the same breath. Orton was benched because we were 1-4 and Elway wanted to calm the fanbase who was calling for Tebow while at the same time hopefully tank the season and get a chance at Andrew Luck. That backfired horribly but in the end we got a nice consolation prize in Manning. I still trust Manning to fix his mistakes as the season progresses and get better. I don't like seeing them struggle on offense but it does look better game to game in spots. The offense as a whole is still not fluid and a lot of that can be chalked up to the musical chairs game we call the O-line and CJ Anderson suddenly not being able to break arm tackles. I think the O-Line is starting to find its footing and maybe Hillman should just be the starter at this point.

And it has been brought up a lot lately, but we have to remember the Patriots had a very similar situation last year and Brady looked like crap the first 4 games and really pulled it together down the stretch. If we get firing on all cylinders at the right time we could do some damage.

[slim]

December of 2014

[Valar Morghulis]

December of 2014

Hilarious!

But, I am a little scared you might be right!

[Northman]

Good points by both Timmy and NTL.

I'm in the same boat, I thought we could very well be a 2-2 team going into the first 4 games while our offense found its footing and the defense held us up. Instead the defense has kept us in games and outright won them and the offense has done just enough to score points when it matters. Down 14 after a Pick 6 in KC Manning had a great gut check drive, and I thought the go ahead Field Goal drive in the last game was really good.

We can bring up comparisons to Orton I suppose, but Manning and Orton should not even be uttered in the same breath. Orton was benched because we were 1-4 and Elway wanted to calm the fanbase who was calling for Tebow while at the same time hopefully tank the season and get a chance at Andrew Luck. That backfired horribly but in the end we got a nice consolation prize in Manning. I still trust Manning to fix his mistakes as the season progresses and get better. I don't like seeing them struggle on offense but it does look better game to game in spots. The offense as a whole is still not fluid and a lot of that can be chalked up to the musical chairs game we call the O-line and CJ Anderson suddenly not being able to break arm tackles. I think the O-Line is starting to find its footing and maybe Hillman should just be the starter at this point.

And it has been brought up a lot lately, but we have to remember the Patriots had a very similar situation last year and Brady looked like crap the first 4 games and really pulled it together down the stretch. If we get firing on all cylinders at the right time we could do some damage.

I love your optimism but i really dont see Manning get much better than this. Also, Orton didnt have this kind of defense when he played so we really dont know how that would of turned out that particular year. Not to say Orton is great but there are other circumstances for both squads and when you have a guy like Manning you actually expect him to be playing at a much higher level than a guy like Orton. Again, thats why you pay him that kind of money to begin with. Out of curiosity, had Denver lost the 3 close games would you have felt differently about our QB situation? I just think too many people are only looking at the name on the back of the jersey and the legacy rather than the actual play on the field.

[dogfish]

man, i can't believe you effers make timmy! be the voice of reason. . . :tsk: :laugh:

[Northman]

man, i can't believe you effers make timmy! be the voice of reason. . . :tsk: :laugh:

If we win the SB this year playing this way on offense i will give Timmy a brownie. For now, i will bitch and you will learn to like it. \m/

[wayninja]

Don't worry guys, I'm writing a very strongly worded letter to the FO, letting Elway and crew know in no uncertain terms what our concerns are and what the price for failure will be.

That should take care of it.

[Valar Morghulis]

Out of curiosity, had Denver lost the 3 close games would you have felt differently about our QB situation?.

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Had we lost those games due to mannings picks I think I would be hoping the Broncos allowed him to retire with dignity.

But we didn't lose, and therefore my judgement is clouded and still think he will come good.... In other words those victories earned my patience.

[Northman]

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Had we lost those games due to mannings picks I think I would be hoping the Broncos allowed him to retire with dignity.

But we didn't lose, and therefore my judgement is clouded and still think he will come good.... In other words those victories earned my patience.

Well, we dont really have a choice in the matter. lol

Im just not very patient i guess because what it takes to win a SB im still not seeing on offense yet so thus, my impatience.

[BroncoWave]

FWIW, here is a comparison of Orton's stats through 4 games in 2011 when we benched him, and Manning through 4 games now:

Orton: 85/142 (59.8%), 945 yds, 8 TD, 6 INT

Manning: 98/154 (63.6%), 968 yds, 6 TD, 5 INT

Those numbers are almost identical. This isn't to say we should bench Manning or that he is now on the exact same level as Orton, but I think he's closer to that level now than some people want to admit. Honestly, the only difference between that team being 1-3 (which we easily could be now), and us being 4-0 is our defense this year compared to that year.

One more Manning statistical comparison I thought to do. One of the defenses for his play I have seen this season goes something along the lines of "Well he also struggled his first 4 games as a Bronco as he was getting used to a new system and teammates but them improved later in the year, so he can do the same this year".

I'm not so sure he struggled as much over those 4 weeks as people think, so I decided to compare the stats:

Weeks 1-4 of 2012:

99/153 (64.7%), 1,162 yds, 8 TD, 3 INT (all in that one half against atlanta)

Weeks 1-4 of 2015:

98/154 (63.6%), 968 yds, 6 TD, 5 INT


So really across the board, his stats were better over that stretch where he allegedly "struggled". The only time he really struggled at all was in that one half against Atlanta. So I don't really think you can compare that year to this one as a sign that he will definitely improve.

[pulse]

Clearly the offense isn't ready to win a Super Bowl. The defense is there but the offense just isn't. I'm among the biggest Manning homers on this board but I won't defend his bad throws and untimely interceptions. The thing is, neither will he. However, this is the hand the Broncos have been dealt. They are 4-0 and will likely be 6-0 heading into their showdown with Green Bay. Manning is going to have to take chances now and then to keep defenses honest or they will continue to stack the inside and make us one-dimensional. In the process, he's going to get picked off now and then. Hopefully our defense is so good it can bail us out. But really, it's going to be that Green Bay game that tells all. If we beat Green Bay, which our offense will certainly have had to make progress by then, I'll feel a lot more confident about the post season.

[BroncoWave]

Clearly the offense isn't ready to win a Super Bowl. The defense is there but the offense just isn't. I'm among the biggest Manning homers on this board but I won't defend his bad throws and untimely interceptions. The thing is, neither will he. However, this is the hand the Broncos have been dealt. They are 4-0 and will likely be 6-0 heading into their showdown with Green Bay. Manning is going to have to take chances now and then to keep defenses honest or they will continue to stack the inside and make us one-dimensional. In the process, he's going to get picked off now and then. Hopefully our defense is so good it can bail us out. But really, it's going to be that Green Bay game that tells all. If we beat Green Bay, which our offense will certainly have had to make progress by then, I'll feel a lot more confident about the post season.

Totally agree with this. That game will be the barometer for where we stand. We have yet to play a truly elite team, and that will be out first big test. If we win that one, I will put every criticism of this team that I have on the backburner and accept that we are a legit Super Bowl contender.

[MasterShake]

I love your optimism but i really dont see Manning get much better than this. Also, Orton didnt have this kind of defense when he played so we really dont know how that would of turned out that particular year. Not to say Orton is great but there are other circumstances for both squads and when you have a guy like Manning you actually expect him to be playing at a much higher level than a guy like Orton. Again, thats why you pay him that kind of money to begin with. Out of curiosity, had Denver lost the 3 close games would you have felt differently about our QB situation? I just think too many people are only looking at the name on the back of the jersey and the legacy rather than the actual play on the field.

Lets say we were 1-3 (going under the assumption the Defense didn't bail us out in the final drives in those 3 close games) I still wouldn't panic quite yet. What is the point? I don't see Brock being a better option right now. I'd rather watch an average hall of famer try to right the ship instead of giving up on the season a quarter of the way in. I have a friend who is a Bears fan that has pretty much given up on the season because the team gave up on themselves. So maybe part of it is the name on the jersey, but the play on the field is correctable (in my view anyway). I just don't see Manning as a big liability right now, and I'd rather have him work out his shit on the field with the offense while the defense continues to carry him. If we can win and work out issues I will take that.

If we bench Manning right now that tells me we gave up on the season. That is not the kicking and screaming Elway was referring to, not 4 games in. If Manning continues to slide and play worse and it leads directly to losses? Then we have that discussion then. Until we are mathematically eliminated from playoff contention I will ride with Manning. This is probably his last season anyway, lets see what he can do. I have a hard time thinking it can get worse. We will have plenty of time to slide back to mediocrity after the Manning era is over, I'm not ready for that yet. I'll take a shaky 4-0 start.

[underrated29]

One more Manning statistical comparison I thought to do. One of the defenses for his play I have seen this season goes something along the lines of "Well he also struggled his first 4 games as a Bronco as he was getting used to a new system and teammates but them improved later in the year, so he can do the same this year".

I'm not so sure he struggled as much over those 4 weeks as people think, so I decided to compare the stats:

Weeks 1-4 of 2012:

99/153 (64.7%), 1,162 yds, 8 TD, 3 INT (all in that one half against atlanta)

Weeks 1-4 of 2015:

98/154 (63.6%), 968 yds, 6 TD, 5 INT


So really across the board, his stats were better over that stretch where he allegedly "struggled". The only time he really struggled at all was in that one half against Atlanta. So I don't really think you can compare that year to this one as a sign that he will definitely improve.




Wow.....Those numbers arent too far off. About 200 yards and he threw 2 more tds instead of INts.....Which brings me back to what I still feel is the main reason why we suck. We had an oline back then. Clady, beadles, walton?,kuper?,harris.....All had been in the system and were there for a while.

Essentially if the oline now will be as good as it was then, then manning likely would throw those extra 2 tds instead of ints and no one would be bitching. The online is coming around. Still not great but we also had harris at LT and schofield at RT.....This week I expect substantial improvement in the OL dept.

[Davii]

Lets say we were 1-3 (going under the assumption the Defense didn't bail us out in the final drives in those 3 close games) I still wouldn't panic quite yet. What is the point? I don't see Brock being a better option right now. I'd rather watch an average hall of famer try to right the ship instead of giving up on the season a quarter of the way in. I have a friend who is a Bears fan that has pretty much given up on the season because the team gave up on themselves. So maybe part of it is the name on the jersey, but the play on the field is correctable (in my view anyway). I just don't see Manning as a big liability right now, and I'd rather have him work out his shit on the field with the offense while the defense continues to carry him. If we can win and work out issues I will take that.

If we bench Manning right now that tells me we gave up on the season. That is not the kicking and screaming Elway was referring to, not 4 games in. If Manning continues to slide and play worse and it leads directly to losses? Then we have that discussion then. Until we are mathematically eliminated from playoff contention I will ride with Manning. This is probably his last season anyway, lets see what he can do. I have a hard time thinking it can get worse. We will have plenty of time to slide back to mediocrity after the Manning era is over, I'm not ready for that yet. I'll take a shaky 4-0 start.

Well said Shake. I shed a tear. Just one.

[BroncoWave]

Wow.....Those numbers arent too far off. About 200 yards and he threw 2 more tds instead of INts.....Which brings me back to what I still feel is the main reason why we suck. We had an oline back then. Clady, beadles, walton?,kuper?,harris.....All had been in the system and were there for a while.

Essentially if the oline now will be as good as it was then, then manning likely would throw those extra 2 tds instead of ints and no one would be bitching. The online is coming around. Still not great but we also had harris at LT and schofield at RT.....This week I expect substantial improvement in the OL dept.

Take out that one fluky half, and it's 8 TD, no picks. I think he was quite a bit better over than stretch than he has been now. And if you extrapolate each of those quaters over full seasons, then you will really see the difference in those numbers. 800 fewer yards, 8 fewer TD, and 8 more picks.

[BroncoWave]

Lets say we were 1-3 (going under the assumption the Defense didn't bail us out in the final drives in those 3 close games) I still wouldn't panic quite yet. What is the point? I don't see Brock being a better option right now. I'd rather watch an average hall of famer try to right the ship instead of giving up on the season a quarter of the way in. I have a friend who is a Bears fan that has pretty much given up on the season because the team gave up on themselves. So maybe part of it is the name on the jersey, but the play on the field is correctable (in my view anyway). I just don't see Manning as a big liability right now, and I'd rather have him work out his shit on the field with the offense while the defense continues to carry him. If we can win and work out issues I will take that.

If we bench Manning right now that tells me we gave up on the season. That is not the kicking and screaming Elway was referring to, not 4 games in. If Manning continues to slide and play worse and it leads directly to losses? Then we have that discussion then. Until we are mathematically eliminated from playoff contention I will ride with Manning. This is probably his last season anyway, lets see what he can do. I have a hard time thinking it can get worse. We will have plenty of time to slide back to mediocrity after the Manning era is over, I'm not ready for that yet. I'll take a shaky 4-0 start.

You are phrasing this as if people are giving up on the season. Who exactly is giving up on the season? Even if Manning sucks balls all year, the defense is good enough to get us to the playoffs and perhaps even make a run. But he will have to play better than he is now if we have a chance of winning it all IMO.

[pulse]

Whether you are unhappy or worried about the outcome of this season due to Manning's poor performances, you've really got no other choice than to ride it out. The Broncos are still a very good team. I am sure yesterday won't be the last bad game that Manning has this year. But we may still win those games because of this defense. Really, it just depends on the opponent. Hopefully, timing is such that Manning plays his best games against teams that are elite. I still expect him to again pull whatever magic out of his arse that he has left and win us some more games when it falls on him. And I guarantee, even with a great defense, he is going to be put in those situations if we are to beat Green Bay or New England. Those teams are going to put up points no matter how great our defense is this year. Hopefully, unlike last year, by the time we reach the playoffs, Manning won't be beat up and he will still be able to pull out that old magic. Unlike previous years, this defense is definitely a championship caliber defense. The offense just has to be good enough to score more points against the elite. Hopefully the offense can improve enough to do that. In about three weeks, we'll see where we stand. If it doesn't pan out, well, it was still a fun ride. Imagine being a Chargers fan.

[foco]

Whether you are unhappy or worried for the this outcome of this season due to Manning and the offense's poor performances, you've really got no other choice than to ride it out.

Here's the thing though: we are 4-0 with a below average qb because of the D and the few playmakers we on O. We have a QB on the bench that has sat and learned for 4 years. If Oz could come in and be even an average QB, this team turns into a juggernaut. He's more mobile, which will help our struggling O-line. Plus, he can throw an accurate ball (at least in pre-season) more than 10yds down the field so teams can't stack the line on 90% of our plays like they are now. I really don't understand why every can't see that every defense we play is only scheming to stop the run and force Peyton to beat them with his arm. Elway has to be considering giving him a chance, because if he's even AVERAGE, we're a SB contender. I just don't think Manning is going to get better than this. And if he doesn't, I don't see us having a chance to go all the way. That would be a travesty considering how special this D can be if we stay healthy.

[pulse]

Here's the thing though: we are 4-0 with a below average qb because of the D and the few playmakers we on O. We have a QB on the bench that has sat and learned for 4 years. If Oz could come in and be even an average QB, this team turns into a juggernaut. He's more mobile, which will help our struggling O-line. Plus, he can throw an accurate ball (at least in pre-season) more than 10yds down the field so teams can't stack the line on 90% of our plays like they are now. I really don't understand why every can't see that every defense we play is only scheming to stop the run and force Peyton to beat them with his arm. Elway has to be considering giving him a chance, because if he's even AVERAGE, we're a SB contender. I just don't think Manning is going to get better than this. And if he doesn't, I don't see us having a chance to go all the way. That would be a travesty considering how special this D can be if we stay healthy.

I disagree. Oz may have the physical abilities, but his decision and play-making abilities to win games is still a huge question mark. That's an experiment you don't take in the middle of the season. If Peyton was to get hurt, that's entirely different. Your team has no choice. But at this point, I would still rather Denver's fate be in the hands of Manning in the fourth quarter of a game than any other option right now. Additionally, I think it would be mentally detrimental for the entire team to bench Manning. Confidence is everything and that would be a real blow. The team still believes it can win ANY game with Peyton taking the snaps. In a live or die scenario, perhaps the odds favor dying now, but Peyton is still the best option for winning close games.

[Buff]

Here's the thing though: we are 4-0 with a below average qb because of the D and the few playmakers we on O. We have a QB on the bench that has sat and learned for 4 years. If Oz could come in and be even an average QB, this team turns into a juggernaut. He's more mobile, which will help our struggling O-line. Plus, he can throw an accurate ball (at least in pre-season) more than 10yds down the field so teams can't stack the line on 90% of our plays like they are now. I really don't understand why every can't see that every defense we play is only scheming to stop the run and force Peyton to beat them with his arm. Elway has to be considering giving him a chance, because if he's even AVERAGE, we're a SB contender. I just don't think Manning is going to get better than this. And if he doesn't, I don't see us having a chance to go all the way. That would be a travesty considering how special this D can be if we stay healthy.

Obviously we cannot say with any confidence that we'd be a "juggernaut" with Brock. We don't even know if we'd be average with Brock.

But we are getting very close to the point where Manning's physical limitations outweigh his mental upside. Arguably we're already there.

[foco]

Additionally, I think it would be mentally detrimental for the entire team to bench Manning. Confidence is everything and that would be a real blow. The team still believes it can win ANY game with Peyton taking the snaps.
This is a very good point. And obviously, we can't bench a HOF QB after a 4-0 start. My point is that if this organization really feels as confident in Brock as they have let on publicly, at what point does not seeing if he has the goods this season hurt us? if brock turns out to be a dud, which there is a high probability of, we always have peyton to go back to. The locker room confidence is probably the reason why we would never do this until we start losing games because of obvious Peyton mistakes.

[MasterShake]

You are phrasing this as if people are giving up on the season. Who exactly is giving up on the season? Even if Manning sucks balls all year, the defense is good enough to get us to the playoffs and perhaps even make a run. But he will have to play better than he is now if we have a chance of winning it all IMO.

My phrasing is off then. My point is we have seen overreactions to great players before (both good and bad) and thinking Manning is a "detriment" at this point of the season leads me to think we would just bench him if he was.

I think you and a few others here are right on the ball - until we play Green Bay and New England it is hard to know where we stand. The good thing is we have time to get some things figured out until then and we get both of them at home.

[Northman]

Lets say we were 1-3 (going under the assumption the Defense didn't bail us out in the final drives in those 3 close games) I still wouldn't panic quite yet. What is the point? I don't see Brock being a better option right now. I'd rather watch an average hall of famer try to right the ship instead of giving up on the season a quarter of the way in. I have a friend who is a Bears fan that has pretty much given up on the season because the team gave up on themselves. So maybe part of it is the name on the jersey, but the play on the field is correctable (in my view anyway). I just don't see Manning as a big liability right now, and I'd rather have him work out his shit on the field with the offense while the defense continues to carry him. If we can win and work out issues I will take that.

If we bench Manning right now that tells me we gave up on the season. That is not the kicking and screaming Elway was referring to, not 4 games in. If Manning continues to slide and play worse and it leads directly to losses? Then we have that discussion then. Until we are mathematically eliminated from playoff contention I will ride with Manning. This is probably his last season anyway, lets see what he can do. I have a hard time thinking it can get worse. We will have plenty of time to slide back to mediocrity after the Manning era is over, I'm not ready for that yet. I'll take a shaky 4-0 start.

Lol

Well, im not sure the team will fall back into mediocrity honestly. There is a lot of talented youth on this team on both sides of the ball, if a Pittsburgh team can help carry a young QB like Big Ben way back when im quite sure this squad will survive if Brock takes over. Im also not quite sure that Brock wouldnt be a better option right now. Now, thats not a guarantee but he does bring other attributes to the team that Manning simply cannot fill right now. While i dont expect Manning to be benched i do kind of see him as a liability because this past Sunday everything was in place to help him out and he still had problems with turnovers. But, Elway wont do it so as long as the team is winning but i have a bad feeling thats not going to last much longer at this rate but we shall see.

[BroncoJoe]

Honestly, I don't get why people get so defensive over a 39 year old QB who's skills are clearly diminishing, and who's only been with the team 3-4 years. It's not like it's Elway or someone who's been with the team long-term.

The last few years have been great, but it's gotten us exactly what again?

[Northman]

I disagree. Oz may have the physical abilities, but his decision and play-making abilities to win games is still a huge question mark.

And thats the rub. The biggest thing working against Oz is his lack of experience. However, he does bring some other things to the table so it really comes down to what you rather prefer to watch, an aging QB struggling to make plays or a young QB working out his kinks while making some plays in other areas. For me, i think i would rather watch the latter because it pains me to see Manning this bad but as already stated its beyond anyone's control in the fan base on who plays, etc.

[BroncoWave]

Honestly, I don't get why people get so defensive over a 39 year old QB who's skills are clearly diminishing, and who's only been with the team 3-4 years. It's not like it's Elway or someone who's been with the team long-term.

The last few years have been great, but it's gotten us exactly what again?

I think part of it could be people being spoiled by Elway retiring at the right time instead of hanging on for too long. Denver fans have never had to watch an all-time great QB decline to the point where it was a serious question as to whether or not he could be the QB of a championship team. So for most of us, this is uncharted water. It's also so rare to get a QB of Peyton's magnitude that people want to hold onto it for as long as possible.

Having said all of that, I do totally agree with you. It's pretty clear if you just watch his play and ignore the name on the back of his jersey that he's not the guy that he used to be. Now maybe our defense is good enough to overcome it and lead us to a title, but it would take a Herculean effort by them IMO.

[Northman]

Honestly, I don't get why people get so defensive over a 39 year old QB who's skills are clearly diminishing, and who's only been with the team 3-4 years. It's not like it's Elway or someone who's been with the team long-term.

The last few years have been great, but it's gotten us exactly what again?

I dont mind that Manning was here, he brought the winning attitude and excitement most of us wanted following the McD fiasco back to Denver. Yes, we got bombed in the SB but that happened with Elway 3 times as well at one point so shit happens. But i do agree that people should not get uptight when pointing out the diminished play of an alltime great. It happens to the best of them but some people have a hard time accepting those things when they start happening to a player.

[NightTerror218]

You can't bench a HOF. But you need to give Manning breaks this season. He is putting a lot into every throw, at this rate arm is goes by December. Brock will need to get so.e live action too, need to decide if he is worth extension and for how much.

[BroncoJoe]

I think part of it could be people being spoiled by Elway retiring at the right time instead of hanging on for too long. Denver fans have never had to watch an all-time great QB decline to the point where it was a serious question as to whether or not he could be the QB of a championship team. So for most of us, this is uncharted water. It's also so rare to get a QB of Peyton's magnitude that people want to hold onto it for as long as possible.

Having said all of that, I do totally agree with you. It's pretty clear if you just watch his play and ignore the name on the back of his jersey that he's not the guy that he used to be. Now maybe our defense is good enough to overcome it and lead us to a title, but it would take a Herculean effort by them IMO.

I see what you're saying, but it's not like we're Colts fans watching this. My main point is he's only been a Broncos player for a few short years. We brought him in to win a championship, and it hasn't happened. Now, he's 39 years old with deteriorating skills (take that for what it's worth...) and we have people defending him like he's always been a Denver Broncos player, or we'd suck without him at QB.

It's a bit confusing to me. If we brought in anyone else, we'd be begging for Brock.

[Northman]

You can't bench a HOF. But you need to give Manning breaks this season. He is putting a lot into every throw, at this rate arm is goes by December. Brock will need to get so.e live action too, need to decide if he is worth extension and for how much.

I dont think you will be able to give Manning any breaks this year. The only way that happens is if the running game starts taking off in a big way. If it continues to be a problem than we are going to have to rely on Manning to make plays with his arm.

[BroncoJoe]

I dont mind that Manning was here, he brought the winning attitude and excitement most of us wanted following the McD fiasco back to Denver. Yes, we got bombed in the SB but that happened with Elway 3 times as well at one point so shit happens. But i do agree that people should not get uptight when pointing out the diminished play of an alltime great. It happens to the best of them but some people have a hard time accepting those things when they start happening to a player.

Elway wasn't 39 years old (or even in his 30's) during those 3 losses.

[Northman]

Elway wasn't 39 years old (or even in his 30's) during those 3 losses.

Obviously, but it didnt change the fact we got crushed. I was just comparing the blowouts as nothing new there.

[BroncoJoe]

Obviously, but it didnt change the fact we got crushed. I was just comparing the blowouts as nothing new there.

Based on what I've seen over the past 10 games or so (including last year), I just don't think he has the physical capability anymore. I've said it in a few threads; his body can't keep up with his mind anymore. And for Manning, that's a BIG problem. He's never been a physical specimen.

Also, those teams Elway took the the SB and got "crushed" had no business being there. It was ALL Elway. IMO, of course.

EDIT: Do you think Manning could (or would even consider) the helicopter move at this point? That's the difference. There's no comparison.

[Davii]

Honestly, I don't get why people get so defensive over a 39 year old QB who's skills are clearly diminishing, and who's only been with the team 3-4 years. It's not like it's Elway or someone who's been with the team long-term.

The last few years have been great, but it's gotten us exactly what again?

So Division titles, playoffs, Super Bowl appearance these are all nothing? I mean, does anyone REALLY subscribe to the "failure without a SB victory" line of thinking? There's no measure of success less than a SB victory?

Don't get me wrong, I'm on the SB or bust bandwagon every year but to allude that having Manning here hasn't gotten us anything or hasn't been successful is a little silly IMO Joe. We've seen some damned good teams the last few years that fell short for a multitude of reasons. We've been in the mix, or been a "contender" every year we've had Manning, to be realistic, I think that's all a fan can really demand, a CHANCE to win something worthwhile.

[Buff]

It wasn't meant to be condescending but I don't think a lot of guys are really looking at our record for how hard it is to be 4-0. I think Madden and fantasy football has corrupted the idea that the better team doesn't always blowout the other team. The players are human and make mistakes. Everyone has bad days at work from time to time.

I don't hear many Packers fans complaining about only scoring 17 points against a pathetic 49ers team that AZ hung a 40 burger on the week before. I think we've gotten spoiled on having a high powered offense. I'd rather have a high powered defense and an offense that can score enough points to win. Stats are for losers. The only stat that matters is wins and losses.

I remember when we were winning with Tebow and I got so annoyed that some people couldn't just sit back and enjoy the ride... They were so worried about sustainability of wins, and the future, that they were missing the present.

So I absolutely "get" where you're coming from. It's hard to win in this league - just enjoy the freakin wins. I think there's a lot of validity to that.

That said, I think we're in a different place with this franchise, with a different set of expectations. During the Tebow run, we'd missed the playoffs for 5 straight years, and I was just happy to be winning some games and relevant again.

The reality is that Manning has spoiled us with his winning. We've gotten to the point that we just expect to win the division with him, and that's a foregone conclusion - where most NFL cities would kill for that kind of success. Manning deserves so much credit for the path he's helped put this team on.

I think what's "different" this time - is that we've accomplished everything we can with Manning short of winning a Super Bowl. We've won the AFC, we've won the division a few years running, he shattered all the passing records... So are we guilty of being entitled and ungrateful? Probably to a certain extent, yes. But it's like every time he goes out on the field now, it's all irrelevant unless he gets to and wins a Super Bowl. It's hard to appreciate the other stuff as much now that it's already been accomplished unless it culminates in the ultimate goal.

Anyway - I think there is more in there around his physical skills being a real hindrance - but I guess I wanted to address this idea of Manning criticizers being ungrateful or too young to get it. I think it's a lot more nuanced than that.

[Northman]

EDIT: Do you think Manning could (or would even consider) the helicopter move at this point? That's the difference. There's no comparison.

No, but as you said they are completely different as QB's. I dont think even a young Manning would attempt that. If Denver is going to win a SB this year its going to have to ride the defense but we will still need Manning to do the things that he has always been known to do well. Im just with you in the sense i dont think he can really perform as well as he wants to at this stage.

[Northman]

So Division titles, playoffs, Super Bowl appearance these are all nothing? I mean, does anyone REALLY subscribe to the "failure without a SB victory" line of thinking? There's no measure of success less than a SB victory?

Don't get me wrong, I'm on the SB or bust bandwagon every year but to allude that having Manning here hasn't gotten us anything or hasn't been successful is a little silly IMO Joe. We've seen some damned good teams the last few years that fell short for a multitude of reasons. We've been in the mix, or been a "contender" every year we've had Manning, to be realistic, I think that's all a fan can really demand, a CHANCE to win something worthwhile.

I agree with a lot of this but at the same time i do think people get a little to complacent with division titles, etc. I mean, its still been a very long time since we have won a SB and it would be nice to get another one before im dead. lmao

[BroncoJoe]

So Division titles, playoffs, Super Bowl appearance these are all nothing? I mean, does anyone REALLY subscribe to the "failure without a SB victory" line of thinking? There's no measure of success less than a SB victory?

Don't get me wrong, I'm on the SB or bust bandwagon every year but to allude that having Manning here hasn't gotten us anything or hasn't been successful is a little silly IMO Joe. We've seen some damned good teams the last few years that fell short for a multitude of reasons. We've been in the mix, or been a "contender" every year we've had Manning, to be realistic, I think that's all a fan can really demand, a CHANCE to win something worthwhile.

I really don't subscribe to the SB or bust mentality - it's unrealistic. BUT, we brought Manning in for a single reason. To win a SB. Yes, and as I've stated the past few years have been really fun. I just don't like losing the last game of the season, and with a 39 year old QB who has only been with the team a few short years, it's been pretty frustrating.

He's not getting any younger. His skills have diminished. No one can really argue that. It was different with Elway because of his physical capabilities. See my post above.

[Davii]

I remember when we were winning with Tebow and I got so annoyed that some people couldn't just sit back and enjoy the ride... They were so worried about sustainability of wins, and the future, that they were missing the present.

So I absolutely "get" where you're coming from. It's hard to win in this league - just enjoy the freakin wins. I think there's a lot of validity to that.

That said, I think we're in a different place with this franchise, with a different set of expectations. During the Tebow run, we'd missed the playoffs for 5 straight years, and I was just happy to be winning some games and relevant again.

The reality is that Manning has spoiled us with his winning. We've gotten to the point that we just expect to win the division with him, and that's a foregone conclusion - where most NFL cities would kill for that kind of success. Manning deserves so much credit for the path he's helped put this team on.

I think what's "different" this time - is that we've accomplished everything we can with Manning short of winning a Super Bowl. We've won the AFC, we've won the division a few years running, he shattered all the passing records... So are we guilty of being entitled and ungrateful? Probably to a certain extent, yes. But it's like every time he goes out on the field now, it's all irrelevant unless he gets to and wins a Super Bowl. It's hard to appreciate the other stuff as much now that it's already been accomplished unless it culminates in the ultimate goal.

Anyway - I think there is more in there around his physical skills being a real hindrance - but I guess I wanted to address this idea of Manning criticizers being ungrateful or too young to get it. I think it's a lot more nuanced than that.

We should hurry up and bench Manning so we can lose enough to appreciate wins again.

I know that's not what you said, but that's how I take this conversation.

[Davii]

I really don't subscribe to the SB or bust mentality - it's unrealistic. BUT, we brought Manning in for a single reason. To win a SB. Yes, and as I've stated the past few years have been really fun. I just don't like losing the last game of the season, and with a 39 year old QB who has only been with the team a few short years, it's been pretty frustrating.

He's not getting any younger. His skills have diminished. No one can really argue that. It was different with Elway because of his physical capabilities. See my post above.

Losing the last game of the season IN the playoffs is a better fate than winning your last game in the season and not making the playoffs.

[BroncoWave]

I remember when we were winning with Tebow and I got so annoyed that some people couldn't just sit back and enjoy the ride... They were so worried about sustainability of wins, and the future, that they were missing the present.

So I absolutely "get" where you're coming from. It's hard to win in this league - just enjoy the freakin wins. I think there's a lot of validity to that.

That said, I think we're in a different place with this franchise, with a different set of expectations. During the Tebow run, we'd missed the playoffs for 5 straight years, and I was just happy to be winning some games and relevant again.

The reality is that Manning has spoiled us with his winning. We've gotten to the point that we just expect to win the division with him, and that's a foregone conclusion - where most NFL cities would kill for that kind of success. Manning deserves so much credit for the path he's helped put this team on.

I think what's "different" this time - is that we've accomplished everything we can with Manning short of winning a Super Bowl. We've won the AFC, we've won the division a few years running, he shattered all the passing records... So are we guilty of being entitled and ungrateful? Probably to a certain extent, yes. But it's like every time he goes out on the field now, it's all irrelevant unless he gets to and wins a Super Bowl. It's hard to appreciate the other stuff as much now that it's already been accomplished unless it culminates in the ultimate goal.

Anyway - I think there is more in there around his physical skills being a real hindrance - but I guess I wanted to address this idea of Manning criticizers being ungrateful or too young to get it. I think it's a lot more nuanced than that.

Great post here Buff. You have really been hitting your stride lately! :D

[Northman]

I remember when we were winning with Tebow and I got so annoyed that some people couldn't just sit back and enjoy the ride... They were so worried about sustainability of wins, and the future, that they were missing the present.

So I absolutely "get" where you're coming from. It's hard to win in this league - just enjoy the freakin wins. I think there's a lot of validity to that.

That said, I think we're in a different place with this franchise, with a different set of expectations. During the Tebow run, we'd missed the playoffs for 5 straight years, and I was just happy to be winning some games and relevant again.

The reality is that Manning has spoiled us with his winning. We've gotten to the point that we just expect to win the division with him, and that's a foregone conclusion - where most NFL cities would kill for that kind of success. Manning deserves so much credit for the path he's helped put this team on.

I think what's "different" this time - is that we've accomplished everything we can with Manning short of winning a Super Bowl. We've won the AFC, we've won the division a few years running, he shattered all the passing records... So are we guilty of being entitled and ungrateful? Probably to a certain extent, yes. But it's like every time he goes out on the field now, it's all irrelevant unless he gets to and wins a Super Bowl. It's hard to appreciate the other stuff as much now that it's already been accomplished unless it culminates in the ultimate goal.

Anyway - I think there is more in there around his physical skills being a real hindrance - but I guess I wanted to address this idea of Manning criticizers being ungrateful or too young to get it. I think it's a lot more nuanced than that.

The other thing i would add is when we were witnessing Tebow doing it there really was no "expectation" of winning a championship. So it was easier to digest what was going on with a very young QB. When you bring Manning in the expectations are very high so the impatience can seep in when the star QB is not playing the way he is getting paid to.

[Timmy!]

man, i can't believe you effers make timmy! be the voice of reason. . . :tsk: :laugh:

Its kind of a pain in the ass.....I'm much better at just being right. #nostratimmy

[Northman]

Its kind of a pain in the ass.....I'm much better at just being right. #nostratimmy

Get over it, its about time you pulled your weight around here.

[BroncoJoe]

Losing the last game of the season IN the playoffs is a better fate than winning your last game in the season and not making the playoffs.

Eh - six and a half dozen the other. Honestly, I'd love to see us developing the future at this point. Whether it's Brock or someone else. I think Manning has taken us as far as he can. We are spoiled here in Denver, but I'd honestly trade the past couple seasons for the development of a championship team that is sustainable.

[BroncoJoe]

Get over it, its about time you pulled your weight around here.

There's no f'ing way he could pull his weight.

[Buff]

We should hurry up and bench Manning so we can lose enough to appreciate wins again.

I know that's not what you said, but that's how I take this conversation.

My appreciation for regular season wins and individual achievements has a ceiling.

[Valar Morghulis]

Add long as we are competitive as a perennial contender I don't want much more, that way, the super bowls will come.

I think we are shaped up to be a contender for a long time. I don't think brocks time is now, I would fear for a rookie (in real-time experience) behind this line. For all we slate mannings fainting goat, at least he knows when to take a sack as opposed to trying to force a throw and take a hit.

Retool the offensive line next season, ready for Brock, for now I think Peyton is the better option.

While it could be argued that brocks arm would give us a deep threat, we still have the problem of keeping him upright long enough for our receivers to get down field

[BroncoWave]

we still have the problem of keeping him upright long enough for our receivers to get down field

With his mobility it would be far less of a problem though. Just look at what Bridgewater did against us this week. He was under pressure all day long, but he was able to keep several plays alive. Had Manning been playing for the Vikings yesterday, he would have been sacked 10 times at least.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

With his mobility it would be far less of a problem though. Just look at what Bridgewater did against us this week. He was under pressure all day long, but he was able to keep several plays alive. Had Manning been playing for the Vikings yesterday, he would have been sacked 10 times at least.

He would have also beaten that last blitz with a big gain down the right seam Ward blitzed from. :D.

[Timmy!]

There's no f'ing way he could pull his weight.

I was weighting for that......get it? Weighting? #ntl

[BroncoJoe]

I was weighting for that......get it? Weighting? #ntl

#nostratimmy!

[Ravage!!!]

I think we are there, but we can't sit him. I mean, we are 4-0 and he's a HoF'er. So we have to wait until injury for us to even consider replacing him. But I think wer are there. Manning can't throw the ball right now. He's just gone down hill so fast, its hard to watch. His mind is as sharp as ever, and no one can pick apart a defense faster than he can, but he can't get the ball to the WR's fast enough to hit the tiny windows or deep balls.

[Joel]

I remember when we were winning with Tebow and I got so annoyed that some people couldn't just sit back and enjoy the ride... They were so worried about sustainability of wins, and the future, that they were missing the present.

So I absolutely "get" where you're coming from. It's hard to win in this league - just enjoy the freakin wins. I think there's a lot of validity to that.

That said, I think we're in a different place with this franchise, with a different set of expectations. During the Tebow run, we'd missed the playoffs for 5 straight years, and I was just happy to be winning some games and relevant again.

The reality is that Manning has spoiled us with his winning. We've gotten to the point that we just expect to win the division with him, and that's a foregone conclusion - where most NFL cities would kill for that kind of success. Manning deserves so much credit for the path he's helped put this team on.

I think what's "different" this time - is that we've accomplished everything we can with Manning short of winning a Super Bowl. We've won the AFC, we've won the division a few years running, he shattered all the passing records... So are we guilty of being entitled and ungrateful? Probably to a certain extent, yes. But it's like every time he goes out on the field now, it's all irrelevant unless he gets to and wins a Super Bowl. It's hard to appreciate the other stuff as much now that it's already been accomplished unless it culminates in the ultimate goal.

Anyway - I think there is more in there around his physical skills being a real hindrance - but I guess I wanted to address this idea of Manning criticizers being ungrateful or too young to get it. I think it's a lot more nuanced than that.
I stated my personal expecations at the start of our Manning Era:

1) Unless we AT LEAST reach an AFCCG, the Manning Era will be failure, but
2) If we improve each year, I'm happy, because we're moving the right direction and must eventually win a SB as long as we don't stop.

Thing is, we'd already won the division and a playoff game without Manning (whatever one thinks of the manner,) so reaching the AFCCG was already the bare minimum for improvement. Hence 2012 was a bitter disappointment, 2013 something to build on and 2014 totally unacceptable. Manning virtually carried a one-dimensional offense with a wretched line all the way to the SB, along the way shattering practically every offensive season record in the books, so his tenure's definitely no failure. But if it ends without a SB WIN, it'll definitely be disappointing, and, if he were candid, I'm sure he'd be first to agree.

[Ravage!!!]

Eh - six and a half dozen the other. Honestly, I'd love to see us developing the future at this point. Whether it's Brock or someone else. I think Manning has taken us as far as he can. We are spoiled here in Denver, but I'd honestly trade the past couple seasons for the development of a championship team that is sustainable.

This is exactlywhat the Chief fans say every year. "Next year... next year... we have young talent... next year."

[Northman]

Eh - six and a half dozen the other. Honestly, I'd love to see us developing the future at this point. Whether it's Brock or someone else. I think Manning has taken us as far as he can. We are spoiled here in Denver, but I'd honestly trade the past couple seasons for the development of a championship team that is sustainable.

Cant really argue with that.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I don't want to see Manning benched. He hasn't looked great, but the team doesn't quit on him and he leads gritty 4th quarter drives.
I just don't see him playing next year.

[BroncoWave]

I think we are there, but we can't sit him. I mean, we are 4-0 and he's a HoF'er. So we have to wait until injury for us to even consider replacing him. But I think wer are there. Manning can't throw the ball right now. He's just gone down hill so fast, its hard to watch. His mind is as sharp as ever, and no one can pick apart a defense faster than he can, but he can't get the ball to the WR's fast enough to hit the tiny windows or deep balls.

Yeah, even hypothetically Brock were better at this point, there is no way you bench Manning without totally losing the locker room. Just not a realistic scenario. He's still the team captain and leader of a 4-0 team.

It's such an odd situation. We're clearly winning in spite of the guy and he's a shell of his former self, but there's just no way you can bench him.

[BroncoNut]

Honestly, I don't get why people get so defensive over a 39 year old QB who's skills are clearly diminishing, and who's only been with the team 3-4 years. It's not like it's Elway or someone who's been with the team long-term.

The last few years have been great, but it's gotten us exactly what again?

I don't mean to be existential, but let's say they win a superbowl, (notice I didn't say we) what does that get you Joe? Really? what does it all really mean in the bigger picture, if anything?

but toning it down from my philosophical perspective, it is kinda hard (no pun intended) to get excited about regular season wins. I mean it's kinda cool and all, but just projecting down the road and looking at how we are getting those wins it's a bit trite. the defense is exciting to watch, but then think about the Seattle superbowl loss, ya know?

I thought Hillman had a nice game but he's not that bulldozer we need, and Sanders is so fukin clutch, as is DT. anyway, I'll enjoy it while it lasts, but that's pretty much where I am. Offense has got to be playing better for me to get truly excited.

[BroncoJoe]

This is exactlywhat the Chief fans say every year. "Next year... next year... we have young talent... next year."

Not exactly the same thing, but whatever. 1993 ring a bell? LOL at comparing the Chiefs to the Broncos.

Remind me again how many championships we've won? Wasn't that the point?

[Ravage!!!]

Not exactly the same thing, but whatever. 1993 ring a bell? LOL at comparing the Chiefs to the Broncos.

Remind me again how many championships we've won? Wasn't that the point?

What??

I didn't compare the Broncos to the Chiefs. I compared your statement to the Chief fans. Thinking that they can just "build for the future." That's what you are saying.. that the winning seasons now are "ok"..but they haven't gotten us a Super Bowl... so lets just throw that out and "build for the future." You know what teams around the NFL do without Franchise QBs to lead their team? Search and search for that franchise QB because their team doesn't go anywhere.

But, keep thinking that the last few seasons of winning doesn't matter because we have no trophies. Just keep wanting to "build for that future"...because that's a wish/want that you may get and it may last longer than you hope it will.

[wayninja]

The irony of winning under Tebow and it being the defense and now winning under Manning and it being the defense is sorta delicious.

I mean, I get that the situations are very different, but you could replace 'mobility' with 'throwing', 'arm strength' with 'accuracy', '39 years old' with 'has trouble reading defenses', and keep the 'but we are winning', and this thread looks like its from 2011.

But just like in 2011, I'm having fun watching the Broncos and that's all I really care about. I mean... Imagine what it's like to be a Chiefs or Chargers fan? We've got it pretty good.

[TXBRONC]

man, i can't believe you effers make timmy! be the voice of reason. . . :tsk: :laugh:

Who would rather have seen as voice of reason Buffy or Timmy?

[BroncoJoe]

What??

I didn't compare the Broncos to the Chiefs. I compared your statement to the Chief fans. Thinking that they can just "build for the future." That's what you are saying.. that the winning seasons now are "ok"..but they haven't gotten us a Super Bowl... so lets just throw that out and "build for the future." You know what teams around the NFL do without Franchise QBs to lead their team? Search and search for that franchise QB because their team doesn't go anywhere.

But, keep thinking that the last few seasons of winning doesn't matter because we have no trophies. Just keep wanting to "build for that future"...because that's a wish/want that you may get and it may last longer than you hope it will.

You compared the two franchises - fan based comments or not (isn't that what we're both doing?).

Yes, build for the future. Manning is 39, and his body can't keep up with his mind. I don't know how else to explain that to you. Manning WAS a franchise QB. Not sure he is anymore, and Brock (or whomever) is an unknown. Jesus - we won a division title and a playoff game with Tim Freaking Tebow. This team is built to win. They just need a QB that isn't fighting father time.

EDIT: I hope I'm wrong, and Manning proves me wrong. I just don't see it happening. If my car is failing and I'm spending a ton of money on it, it's time for a new car so I don't get stranded on the side of the road.

[NightTerror218]

Yeah, even hypothetically Brock were better at this point, there is no way you bench Manning without totally losing the locker room. Just not a realistic scenario. He's still the team captain and leader of a 4-0 team.

It's such an odd situation. We're clearly winning in spite of the guy and he's a shell of his former self, but there's just no way you can bench him.

If at any point this team is up 3 TDs I bet Brock gets some snaps. Elway prob told Kubiak he needs live snaps before possible extension. Elway last year he sat out as well to rest.

3 TDs could all be defensive ones for us.

[BroncoJoe]

If at any point this team is up 3 TDs I bet Brock gets some snaps. Elway prob told Kubiak he needs live snaps before possible extension. Elway last year he sat out as well to rest.

3 TDs could all be defensive ones for us.

Even in that scenario, they'd do hardly anything more than hand the ball off. Not really a chance to see what Brock has.

Elway sat out his last season due to injury. Not to rest him. At least that's what they told us.

[BroncoJoe]

I don't mean to be existential, but let's say they win a superbowl, (notice I didn't say we) what does that get you Joe? Really? what does it all really mean in the bigger picture, if anything?

but toning it down from my philosophical perspective, it is kinda hard (no pun intended) to get excited about regular season wins. I mean it's kinda cool and all, but just projecting down the road and looking at how we are getting those wins it's a bit trite. the defense is exciting to watch, but then think about the Seattle superbowl loss, ya know?

I thought Hillman had a nice game but he's not that bulldozer we need, and Sanders is so fukin clutch, as is DT. anyway, I'll enjoy it while it lasts, but that's pretty much where I am. Offense has got to be playing better for me to get truly excited.

Shut up, nut. Real people are having a conversation. :D

[Slick]

I'd love to know what runs through Elway's mind when he is in the suite watching the games.

[NightTerror218]

Even in that scenario, they'd do hardly anything more than hand the ball off. Not really a chance to see what Brock has.

Elway sat out his last season due to injury. Not to rest him. At least that's what they told us.

Beginning of preseason. Kubiak talked about at the end of Elway's career he had to fight with him to give him breaks to make sure he lasted the whole season. He said he would do the same with Manning giving him days off during the week and all.

[BroncoWave]

I'd love to know what runs through Elway's mind when he is in the suite watching the games.

I would pay good money to know what was going through his mind during the Tebow season.

[BroncoJoe]

Beginning of preseason. Kubiak talked about at the end of Elway's career he had to fight with him to give him breaks to make sure he lasted the whole season. He said he would do the same with Manning giving him days off during the week and all.

Practice, sure. Games, no. Bubby played several games because Elway was hurt. Ferrari keys and all...

[BroncoJoe]

I would pay good money to know what was going through his mind during the Tebow season.

If you have an iPhone, ask Siri "What does WTF mean?".

Even better: Ask Siri "are you naked?".

LOL.

[Buff]

I'd love to know what runs through Elway's mind when he is in the suite watching the games.

"I wish I could drink a beer instead of chewing on these god damn sunflower seeds, but I'm on the clock."

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'd love to know what runs through Elway's mind when he is in the suite watching the games.

"Seriously Manning, I could have made that throw left handed."

[BroncoWave]

If you have an iPhone, ask Siri "What does WTF mean?".

Even better: Ask Siri "are you naked?".

LOL.

Don't have an iPhone but I'll try that one on my gf's phone when she gets home. :lol:

[Krugan]

So after much internal debate, im still fenced on this.

I think it goes in multiple directions as to where the fault lies.

Without writing a book, ide say it starts with managements lack of offensive line help, the idea that resting manning 6 months before the payoffs will somehow give him more durability thus creating lack of continuity, and well Manning just getting old and still not healthy. Sadly ,i get to use the overused phrase, he is our best chance to win. Because honestly, do we really know that either of the other 2 qb's are anything more than hopes and dreams?

[underrated29]

With his mobility it would be far less of a problem though. Just look at what Bridgewater did against us this week. He was under pressure all day long, but he was able to keep several plays alive. Had Manning been playing for the Vikings yesterday, he would have been sacked 10 times at least.



I dont think so.

Look at tony romeo. He has the BEST offensive line and is EXTREMELY mobile and he got knocked the eff out of the games, for like 4 weeks. At best. We do have one of the worst OLines in the NFL, we can see it. The stats show it. Its that bad. TO think the giraffe would have a marked improvement because of his mobility is silly. He is no tono romo and I just explained what happend to Tony.

Ill deal with manning dropping instead of getting beat up and out for weeks. Maybe itll be good like Brady and bledsoe, maybe itll be bad like jay cutler and jimmy clausen.....I dont know and since we are undefeated, id rather not find out. That whole dont fix what isnt broke thing.

[cmc0605]

Peyton Manning's struggles have really had little to do with his physical limitations. A bad decision (like the pre-halftime throw) is not the same as an arm that doesn't work...I'm not excusing the former, but saying he is physically done after that sort of play is beyond absurd.

Peyton has shown to me this season that he can make all the throws we require of him. Of course it's frustrating when you see 5 good throws and then a tipped ball for a pick, or a penalty that stalls a drive, etc, but very little of the offensive struggles this year can be attributed to Manning's arm. Sure, he needs to be held accountable for bad decisions, just like WRs need to be held accountable for those drops, or the o-line for missed assignments, but this is a different concern.

[Joel]

When your "loyal" fans start repaying your blood on the field by openly HOPING you're hurt just so they can get someone else, it's time to shoot them the bird and go play handball. :tsk:

[Davii]

Man, we're some spoiled fans. This is the equivalent of First World Problems.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

When your "loyal" fans start repaying your blood on the field by openly HOPING you're hurt just so they can get someone else, it's time to shoot them the bird and go play handball. :tsk:

Fans should be singular.

[Buff]

Peyton Manning's struggles have really had little to do with his physical limitations. A bad decision (like the pre-halftime throw) is not the same as an arm that doesn't work...I'm not excusing the former, but saying he is physically done after that sort of play is beyond absurd.

Peyton has shown to me this season that he can make all the throws we require of him. Of course it's frustrating when you see 5 good throws and then a tipped ball for a pick, or a penalty that stalls a drive, etc, but very little of the offensive struggles this year can be attributed to Manning's arm. Sure, he needs to be held accountable for bad decisions, just like WRs need to be held accountable for those drops, or the o-line for missed assignments, but this is a different concern.

http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/4ec6a19e69bedd3029000025/anyone-who-expects-apples-growth-to-rebound-is-living-in-denial.jpg

[cmc0605]

http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/4ec6a19e69bedd3029000025/anyone-who-expects-apples-growth-to-rebound-is-living-in-denial.jpg

Or you know...watching the games

[Northman]

Practice, sure. Games, no. Bubby played several games because Elway was hurt. Ferrari keys and all...

Comaderieship

[dogfish]

I'd love to know what runs through Elway's mind when he is in the suite watching the games.

pure, top shelf 150 proof goodness. . .

:drinking:




Man, we're some spoiled fans. This is the equivalent of First World Problems.

oh, come on! don't you wish we were the raiders so we could be building for the future? it's awful having to win games when you can't be the super bowl favorite. . . we may not even make it to the AFC championship game with this old gimp at QB! had you considered that, davii-- had you??!

[Davii]

pure, top shelf 150 proof goodness. . .

:drinking:





oh, come on! don't you wish we were the raiders so we could be building for the future? it's awful having to win games when you can't be the super bowl favorite. . . we may not even make it to the AFC championship game with this old gimp at QB! had you considered that, davii-- had you??!

I'm too busy counting Ws with my head in the sand to face reality

[Buff]

Or you know...watching the games

Right, but you can't see the forest for the trees.

The batted balls, the sacks, the INTs, the near-INTs, the under throws, the over throws. They're all related. I'm still rooting for the guy. He's still one of the greatest ever. But I don't think you can credibly make the argument that his issues aren't related to arm strength anymore. That's not the only issue, but man, it's a huge one that leads to a lot of those outcomes directly or indirectly.

[Joel]

Fans should be singular.
Fine as far it goes; here's hoping it stays that way (or, better yet, declines.)

[Northman]

Right, but you can't see the forest for the trees.

The batted balls, the sacks, the INTs, the near-INTs, the under throws, the over throws. They're all related. I'm still rooting for the guy. He's still one of the greatest ever. But I don't think you can credibly make the argument that his issues aren't related to arm strength anymore. That's not the only issue, but man, it's a huge one that leads to a lot of those outcomes directly or indirectly.

No your not.

Signed,
The fan police

[Northman]

I'm too busy counting Ws with my head in the sand to face reality

I think you are confused, you are actually counting M&M's because your head is up your ass. :D

[Buff]

No your not.

Signed,
The fan police

All of the hall monitors are out tonight.

[cmc0605]

Right, but you can't see the forest for the trees.

The batted balls, the sacks, the INTs, the near-INTs, the under throws, the over throws. They're all related. I'm still rooting for the guy. He's still one of the greatest ever. But I don't think you can credibly make the argument that his issues aren't related to arm strength anymore. That's not the only issue, but man, it's a huge one that leads to a lot of those outcomes directly or indirectly.

It's not obvious to me how a sack is related to arm strength. I'm not arguing Peyton is throwing like he's 25 years old, but a bad decision is just that...not everything is "related."

[Buff]

It's not obvious to me how a sack is related to arm strength. I'm not arguing Peyton is throwing like he's 25 years old, but a bad decision is just that...not everything is "related."

I'm not trying to speak in absolutes - I think you probably had a valid point that making a bad decision/wrong read has nothing to do with arm strength - I'm just saying that the way the offense gets schemed against, his inability to move from the pocket, etc. All of those issues contribute to the outcomes.

[Davii]

I think you are confused, you are actually counting M&M's because your head is up your ass. :D

This is a strong possibility

[cmc0605]

I'm not trying to speak in absolutes - I think you probably had a valid point that making a bad decision/wrong read has nothing to do with arm strength - I'm just saying that the way the offense gets schemed against, his inability to move from the pocket, etc. All of those issues contribute to the outcomes.

That's fine, but all offenses get schemed against in some way and "outcomes" are always going to be disproprotionarly shackled to a QB's strengths and weaknesses. Other outcomes such as the Owen Daniels TD pass after reading the blitz vs. Detroit came from Peyton's knowledge.

I don't really know what to do with arguments about Peyton's immobility because it's true, but it's always been true, and you know you're getting that with guys like Peyton or Drew Brees, etc. You know you're getting a runner with Tim Tebow and a scrambler with Russell Wilson. Peyton never got to be a hall of famer by escaping from two would-be sacks every play, either at age 25, 30, or 39.

Some people see value in having a mobile QB for the sake of having a mobile QB, or a QB that can boot, or a QB that wrestled through 5 sacks. I don't, or at least I don't see disproportionate value than a surgical pocket QB who can still make those throws down the field, as he has been ever since they went shotgun/pistol...

[Northman]

This is a strong possibility

:lol:

[TXBRONC]

Comaderieship

Bubby had a way with words.

[LTC Pain]

At the point when the Broncos are winning despite PM or losing because of him.

[Buff]

That's fine, but all offenses get schemed against in some way and "outcomes" are always going to be disproprotionarly shackled to a QB's strengths and weaknesses. Other outcomes such as the Owen Daniels TD pass after reading the blitz vs. Detroit came from Peyton's knowledge.

I don't really know what to do with arguments about Peyton's immobility because it's true, but it's always been true, and you know you're getting that with guys like Peyton or Drew Brees, etc. You know you're getting a runner with Tim Tebow and a scrambler with Russell Wilson. Peyton never got to be a hall of famer by escaping from two would-be sacks every play, either at age 25, 30, or 39.

Some people see value in having a mobile QB for the sake of having a mobile QB, or a QB that can boot, or a QB that wrestled through 5 sacks. I don't, or at least I don't see disproportionate value than a surgical pocket QB who can still make those throws down the field, as he has been ever since they went shotgun/pistol...

Philosophically, I don't disagree that a pure pocket passer is always better than mobility - I just think you're understating his limitations. Even a guy like Brady, who is not known for his mobility, has a lot more improvisation ability than does Manning. He can sneak for tough yards, he can scramble occasionally, bootleg when he needs to, etc. I think over time, in aggregate, all of those limitations start to snowball - and they are exacerbated in the playoffs where the talent is better and the inefficiencies harder to come by.

[SR]

All of the hall monitors are out tonight.

Seems like North is the board's hall monitor lately.

[underrated29]

I think you are confused, you are actually counting M&M's because your head is up your ass. :D


I think that would be corn

[Davii]

I think that would be corn

Also a very strong possibility.

[Timmy!]

Who would rather have seen as voice of reason Buffy or Timmy?

Buff....we have officially failed at Broncos forums. Que a retirement thread.

[jhildebrand]

At what point does Manning become more of a detriment to this team?

At the point he is injured and insists on playing like last year. Other than that, the answer to that question IMO is this off season.


Something is still going on there, is anyone else concerned about this?

The message from the staff to the players on offense should be simple-don't turn it over! As long as they don't turn it over, this team will win. If it isn't there, don't throw it. Take the sack or throw it away.

[Northman]

The message from the staff to the players on offense should be simple-don't turn it over! As long as they don't turn it over, this team will win. If it isn't there, don't throw it. Take the sack or throw it away.

Well, i think that is where his lack of mobility really hurts him. Its why we see him just go fainting goat when he is about to be sacked and since he really cant outrun a defender he wont have the time to really throw it out of bounds either. The two Int's Sunday he had time to throw but simply misread the defender on the first one and then overthrew DT on the other. Those particular plays didnt even have anything to do with pressure rather than just poor execution and judgement. But i agree, if we are going to lean on the back of the defense than we might need to just play field position and Dilfer ball and hope our defense stays healthy throughout the year.

[arapaho2]

I can take the picks here and there but it's the immobility as well, there's no buying time when the only reaction to a blitz is to fall to the ground.

verses the alternative like what we seen bridgewater do to end the game

[dogfish]

Seems like North is the board's hall monitor lately.

yea, that guy is a real jerk. . .

[Northman]

yea, that guy is a real jerk. . .

Im a naughty God.

[weazel]

verses the alternative like what we seen bridgewater do to end the game

yes, it's definitely one of the two... it's either fall to the ground anytime a DE gets the edge or a strip sack. Arguing extremes is always the best route

[Ravage!!!]

At the point when the Broncos are winning despite PM or losing because of him.

I think we are there.

To be fair... Manning isn't like Tebow by any means. But we ARE winning BECAUSE of our defense, and surviving what Manning can no longer do.

[Joel]

yes, it's definitely one of the two... it's either fall to the ground anytime a DE gets the edge or a strip sack. Arguing extremes is always the best route
Welcome to America—or go back to Russia; those are your options. Because free democracy means (Boolean) choices. :tongue: That's why unbeaten teams always win the NFL Championship. ;)

To the point though: Manning was a statue 10 years, 4 spinal surgeries and 2 fused vertebrae ago; he won't turn into Baryshnikov now. Marino had a pretty decent career like that though, and so has Manning.

[I Eat Staples]

I mean, Manning was always allergic to running vertically, but in his prime his pocket movement was among the best in the league. When people talk about his lack of mobility, they mean the fact that his pocket movement is no longer there, though it HAS shown up in certain situations.

[Bosco]

When the offensive line and shitty offensive schemes sort themselves out, you'll see Manning play much better.

[Ravage!!!]

I mean, Manning was always allergic to running vertically, but in his prime his pocket movement was among the best in the league. When people talk about his lack of mobility, they mean the fact that his pocket movement is no longer there, though it HAS shown up in certain situations.

Yeah... he's never been a "scrambler"..but moving within the pocket was something he did very well. Helping out his OL. Now, he doesn't step up into some obvious pockets, and it shocks me. I think he's scared to step up into a hard hit.

[wayninja]

I mean, Manning was always allergic to running vertically, but in his prime his pocket movement was among the best in the league. When people talk about his lack of mobility, they mean the fact that his pocket movement is no longer there, though it HAS shown up in certain situations.

Is it really his pocket movement though, or is he just happy to see me?

[Joel]

From where I sit, Manning's been a pretty mobile immobile QB throughout the seasons first month: The line's left him no choice. If he sees contact imminent, he goes down, because neither he nor the coaches want him to go limping off the field after channeling his inner FB, but he's rolled out or stepped up numerous times. Might be interesting to review how many of his "over the hill" throws came on those versus the times he had an intact pocket. And JUST how many of each type there were; I still think that when Manning trusts his line again, we can trust Manning.

[Yashahla17]

Peyton is already a liability. Its only going to get worst as the season goes on. Cold weather is coming and if he cant feel his fingers in the summer as he said then theres noway hell be able to feel his hands in the cold. Combined with his physical ability pretty much on a 2 out of 10 scale doesn't bold well for manning. As ugly as its been for manning its only going to get worst. The thing that really bothers me is we cannot run kubiak offense. We just released a good fullback who was kubes guy because he's useless with manning. Our run game has suffered because the zone blocking schemes that kubes system brings cannot be ran out of a pistol or a shotgun really. This scheme usually hides a lack of talent on the oline aswell but we cant run it. The pre season showed what this offense should look like with brock under the helm. This should be brocks team. He beat out manning in training camp and pre season play. If the name was anyone else but manning hed been benched.

[Yashahla17]

The sad thing is manning will never call it quits' he's going to end up going out by injury. Unless the coaches save him from himself

[Valar Morghulis]

I have a feeling you might be a troll. Your first six posts are pure manning vitriol, worthy of a tebow thread.

[Yashahla17]

Where on the site does it say you have to sign up and praise manning or talk about other stuff but manning first before discussing anything else? You keep holding on to those glory days of winning nothing with manning if you want. It wont be forced upon me though.

[Valar Morghulis]

Where on the site does it say you have to sign up and praise manning or talk about other stuff but manning first before discussing anything else? You keep holding on to those glory days of winning nothing with manning if you want. It wont be forced upon me though.

Nowhere does it say that, you are quite within your rights.

Welcome to the forum, I hope you enjoy it.

[Slick]

I have a feeling you might be a troll. Your first six posts are pure manning vitriol, worthy of a tebow thread.

It isn't just him. Reading other Bronco forums lately just to see what others think and there's a large portion of fans who feel the same way.

[Valar Morghulis]

It isn't just him. Reading other Bronco forums lately just to see what others think and there's a large portion of fans who feel the same way.

Oh I know, I can even acknowledge a lot of truth in what people are saying, it just seemed like a strange opening act from a new poster.

Like the dude said, there is no rule against it.

[Slick]

Oh I know, I can even acknowledge a lot of truth in what people are saying, it just seemed like a strange opening act from a new poster.

Like the dude said, there is no rule against it.

I feel the same way as this guy but no amount of me bitching about it here is going to change anything. I'll just ride it out and talk about the rest of the team or avoid posting in Broncos talk alltogether.

By the way, following you on Instagram was a real treat last week. Good work buddy. I liked the two short videos from the bike taxis the best, especially the one with you, DBake and Pudge giggling like school girls. Also, the pic of you before the game at Folsom field in that huge crowd of people, the look on your face was priceless.

War Dave!

[Ravage!!!]

Peyton is already a liability. Its only going to get worst as the season goes on. Cold weather is coming and if he cant feel his fingers in the summer as he said then theres noway hell be able to feel his hands in the cold. Combined with his physical ability pretty much on a 2 out of 10 scale doesn't bold well for manning. As ugly as its been for manning its only going to get worst. The thing that really bothers me is we cannot run kubiak offense. We just released a good fullback who was kubes guy because he's useless with manning. Our run game has suffered because the zone blocking schemes that kubes system brings cannot be ran out of a pistol or a shotgun really. This scheme usually hides a lack of talent on the oline aswell but we cant run it. The pre season showed what this offense should look like with brock under the helm. This should be brocks team. He beat out manning in training camp and pre season play. If the name was anyone else but manning hed been benched.

Really? He "beat out Manning" in practice and preseason? H ow so? Because you say so? Seriously, I've read a lot of complaints about Manning, but this has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I've read. It's completely absurd, and untrue. I get that you want to make things up to validate your point, but at least have something of merit to go with, not this made-up garbage that only makes sense because you dislike Manning.

[chazoe60]

When the offensive line and shitty offensive schemes sort themselves out, you'll see Manning play much better.
Yeah I really wish we had McDaniels right now.

[Ravage!!!]

Yeah I really wish we had McDaniels right now.

Yeup, that's what Bosco still pines for.

[Northman]

Lmao

[Yashahla17]

Really? He "beat out Manning" in practice and preseason? H ow so? Because you say so? Seriously, I've read a lot of complaints about Manning, but this has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I've read. It's completely absurd, and untrue. I get that you want to make things up to validate your point, but at least have something of merit to go with, not this made-up garbage that only makes sense because you dislike Manning.

Manning was garbage in training camp getting picked off usually twice a day if you followed camp. He then sucked vs other teams in the pre season. While brock had a great training camp and pre season. Call it what you want but the truth is manning has been garbage since last year week9.

[Ravage!!!]

Manning was garbage in training camp getting picked off usually twice a day if you followed camp. He then sucked vs other teams in the pre season. While brock had a great training camp and pre season. Call it what you want but the truth is manning has been garbage since last year week9.

But he "beat out" Manning? Seriously, its such a ludicrous statement that it just drips of prejudice and disdain. It's laughable. Pre-season games? This is what you count?

[Tned]

I'm still willing to ride manning a bit longer and think he is still the best Broncos option and still a top ten or so QB.

I too get nervous at times, because his passes are not as pin point as they once were.

[wayninja]

I have it on good authority, and have been told repeatedly that whoever ends up as number 1 on the depth chart after camp is over "won" the camp.

And since "winning" a job in camp is completely subjective to the coaches making the decision, a refrigerator with the broncos logo on it could have "won" the camp as long it appears as number 1 on the depth chart.

[Ravage!!!]

I have it on good authority, and have been told repeatedly that whoever ends up as number 1 on the depth chart after camp is over "won" the camp.

And since "winning" a job in camp is completely subjective to the coaches making the decision, a refrigerator with the broncos logo on it could have "won" the camp as long it appears as number 1 on the depth chart.

As ridiculous as your example is, its 100% true.

[Simple Jaded]

I like this Yashahaler guy, heavy hitter.

[Simple Jaded]

I feel the same way as this guy but no amount of me bitching about it here is going to change anything.

You could rent a billboard.

[Valar Morghulis]

You could rent a billboard.

That would never happen, or work.....

[Simple Jaded]

That would never happen, or work.....

Erroneous!

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

You could rent a billboard.

It makes my days more entertaining when you're salty like this.

[Slick]

You could rent a billboard.

My pockets aren't as deep as the Florida boosters.

[Simple Jaded]

My pockets aren't as deep as the Florida boosters.

Actually I think they had something like Fundme.

[NightTerror218]

Oz had no chance to win starting gig with Manning on roster. Pedigree and all, you can bench Manning g and a guy you are paying $15 mil. Oz looked really good in preseason but it was preseason.

[NightTerror218]

I want to see a lot points quick on raiders so that we can see some Oz tomorrow.

[Joel]

I want to see a lot points quick on raiders so that we can see some Oz tomorrow.
Feels like we've been saying that for 3½ years. On the other hand, at this point I doubt we'll see any more gifs of Oz throwing up his hands while removing his helmet in a game we lead by 3 scores in the 4th.

[NightTerror218]

Feels like we've been saying that for 3½ years. On the other hand, at this point I doubt we'll see any more gifs of Oz throwing up his hands while removing his helmet in a game we lead by 3 scores in the 4th.

Difference is HC. Fox did not like playing young players, part of reason he is gone. Kubiak wants to give Manning breaks. Manning would not let Fox sit him. Manning was already benched in preseason.

[DenBronx]

Sneakers....please start the gameday thread early this week. We need to talk about beating the raiders like a red headed step child.

[DenBronx]

I'm still willing to ride manning a bit longer and think he is still the best.
I too get nervous at times


Wow Tned....just wow.

[Joel]

Difference is HC. Fox did not like playing young players, part of reason he is gone. Kubiak wants to give Manning breaks. Manning would not let Fox sit him. Manning was already benched in preseason.
Yeah, hence "on the other hand."

Honestly, if we'd hired Kubiak, Dennison and Phillips the moment Houston fired them, I'm convinced we'd be buying trophy polish by the case now. Sadly, I doubt Manning has another good season left in him for 2016, and it's hard to believe we'll have everyone on the same page of a brand new very complex playbook by the playoffs. Hopefully Oz is as good as his fanbase believes, or Kubiak makes him good enough/finds someone who is within a couple seasons. It would be a horrible irony though if we won a SB or two AFTER Manning retired; you just KNOW what is critics would say about that....

[Joel]

I'm still willing to ride manning a bit longer and think he is still the best
I too get nervous at times
Wow Tned....just wow.
Please don't selectively quote the site admin, as a permban often offends. :tongue:

[Yashahla17]

Yeah, hence "on the other hand."

Honestly, if we'd hired Kubiak, Dennison and Phillips the moment Houston fired them, I'm convinced we'd be buying trophy polish by the case now. Sadly, I doubt Manning has another good season left in him for 2016, and it's hard to believe we'll have everyone on the same page of a brand new very complex playbook by the playoffs. Hopefully Oz is as good as his fanbase believes, or Kubiak makes him good enough/finds someone who is within a couple seasons. It would be a horrible irony though if we won a SB or two AFTER Manning retired; you just KNOW what is critics would say about that....

Im willing to guarantee brock wins a ring aslong as this team stays in tack. What this offense needs is a mobile big arm qb. Get those bootlegs going and big play action strikes deep from it.

[TXBRONC]

Im willing to guarantee brock wins a ring aslong as this team stays in tack. What this offense needs is a mobile big arm qb. Get those bootlegs going and big play action strikes deep from it.

I like Brock and think he'll be a good quarterback but he's got to actually have to start meaningful form me to go out on that limb.

[Tned]

Wow Tned....just wow.

Lol, nice selective quoting. Since I'm on my mobile phone, had to go check if I had an auto correct or other problem.

[wayninja]

nice... mobile phone, ...auto correct... problem.

Yeah, I like mine too and usually turn autocorrect off...

:D

[Simple Jaded]

What this offense needs is a mobile big arm qb. Get those bootlegs going and big play action strikes deep from it.

This is factually wrong, this offense has been run by every kind of QB in the league, including QB's that are neither big armed nor mobile.

[Cugel]

I don't know why this is so mysterious to some people. Since 2012 we've had a "Tale of Two Peytons."

Starting in 2012 people noticed back in the pre-season that Peyton's arm wasn't remotely as good as it was before his 4 neck surgeries. He was throwing "wobblers." He was intercepted 3 times in the first half of the Falcons game in week two and people were saying he was "washed up."

Well, his arm didn't get stronger since then. He made some adjustments. He had to step into every throw more and rely on his arm strength less. A lot less. The OL started pass-blocking better. The receivers started running shorter routes, including utilizing D.T. more in the bubble-screens. Quick opening plays, getting to the line and snapping the ball quicker to put more pressure on the defense and tire them out, etc.

The Broncos did everything they possibly could to help Peyton. The OL was generally good in 2012 and 2013.

Then came the Super Bowl. The Seahawks pioneered the way to defense the Broncos great offense. Totally ignore the run. Get consistent pressure in Peyton's face with Michael Bennett in 2 seconds flat. Pressure the underneath throws. Walk the safeties up into the box, and leave the CBs in one on one coverage on the outside, secure in knowledge that Peyton can't throw deep if he doesn't have the time. And he can't move around in the pocket to buy time because he's not mobile at all.

Peyton never had a strong arm and after his neck surgeries his arm has been much weaker than it was. Unless he can step into his throws he can't get anything on them.

But, here's the KEY. None of this is news. He's been pretty much like this for 4 years now and it didn't stop him from throwing for 5500 yards and 55 Tds 2 years ago.

He didn't suddenly lose arm strength and feeling in his fingers during the middle of last year. He had a torn thigh muscle last year and this year his OL has been flat terrible at pass-blocking the entire season. In the Vikings game Peyton was STILL sacked in 2 seconds twice despite being in the shot-gun the entire game!

You can't just judge by the box score people! Go back and look at 2012 people. Unless Peyton is able to really step into his throws, he's throwing wobblers just like last week.

And we've seen all too much "Super Bowl Peyton" in recent weeks. When he has to make hurried decisions because he doesn't trust his OL, when the OL is not giving him a clear pocket with room to step into his throws, when he's trying to hurry up his decision process to get rid of the ball in under 2 seconds, we see all the hallmarks of "Super Bowl Peyton."

He not only makes bad throws, he makes bad decisions. He throws a pick to the safety and you say "why did he even make that throw?! There wasn't even a receiver in the area!" He's looking directly at a receiver the entire time, and the defender easily reads the play, steps in front of the receiver and has an INT and sometimes a pick-six.

This is exactly what happens when the OL doesn't block for him! Why did he look better in the Lions game? He had a clean pocket and was able to step up into his throws.

This "Peyton is washed up", "no Peyton looks great!" debate is clearly going to continue all season.

And it's just ridiculous. NOTHING has changed at all about Peyton. He's in a new system. His OL is one of the worst pass-blocking OLs in football according to Pro-Football Focus. He has one of the weakest arms if not the weakest arm in football, which has pretty generally been true ever since his neck surgeries.

We now had him admit this off-season that the feeling in his finger-tips NEVER came back after 2011. How does that affect his touch on passes?

I don't know why this is so difficult for fans to understand. Peyton simply hasn't had time to throw in any game this season, unless unless by "time" you mean "he wasn't being sacked in 2 seconds against the Vikings, whoo! Hoo!" That's not remotely good enough. :coffee:

Let's be honest about this offense. The offensive line was just putrid the first two games. That's not my assessment, "putrid" was the term used by Mark Schlereth.

In the Lions game they were much better against a pretty weak defensive line, and not a great defense generally, but "better" is relative. They still weren't great. And against the Vikings they were a bit worse, but better than in the first 2 games.

An AVERAGE offensive line can pass protect for around 3 seconds. Go back and look at the games and see how many times Peyton has had 3 seconds to throw the ball this season! I've looked at all the highlights from this season and Peyton is consistently throwing the ball in under 2 seconds. And that is true on every one of his 5 INTs.

Because Peyton has a weaker arm than most NFL QBs he has to have a BETTER than average OL in order for him to have a clean pocket to step up into a throw. QBs with a cannon for an arm like Aaron Rogers can throw off their back foot while eluding the rush, and still throw a 30 yard strike down the field. Peyton simply can't do that.

Did you see the TD pass to Virgil Greene? He threw that off his back foot and it just floated out there to the back of the end-zone where Virgil caught it. But, there was virtually nothing on that throw. It was a complete wobbler.

In the last game the OL was somewhat better with Peyton in the shot-gun against a fair, but not great Vikings defense. The Vikings are 12th against the pass and 28th against the run, for a very mediocre total of 18th ranked defense in the NFL (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/netPassingYardsPerGame/position/defense).

The running game is still virtually non-existent. Outside of that 71 yard TD Hillman rushed 10 times for 31 yards - 3.1 yards per attempt and Anderson rushed 11 times for 43 yards. Teams are completely ignoring the running game which eliminates play-action entirely.

If the OL starts blocking better we'll see Peyton play better just as he did against the Lions. Against a really good defense like the Patriots or Bengals he'll probably play badly and people will be saying "he's washed up" all over again.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

To add to what Cugel said, hopefully the OL starts playing great, even good would definitely help. That would open up the run game, and the passing game. One thing that upsets me is when there are posts about Manning's self sacks, or whatever people say. I bet Breese and Luck wish they would have done that. Also, in last week's game, Manning did throw some good passes - WHEN he had time to throw.

[Cugel]

To add to what Cugel said, hopefully the OL starts playing great, even good would definitely help. That would open up the run game, and the passing game. One thing that upsets me is when there are posts about Manning's self sacks, or whatever people say. I bet Breese and Luck wish they would have done that. Also, in last week's game, Manning did throw some good passes - WHEN he had time to throw.

The good news is that all this hyper-ventilating probably doesn't matter much. This team is going to be 6-0 in a couple of weeks. And a team that starts 6-0 is almost certainly going to make the playoffs. No chance this team pulls a McDaniels and goes 2-8 the rest of the way to miss the playoffs.

So, it all comes down to a simple question: Can this OL pass-block effectively for Peyton in January? Can they run the ball effectively in January?

If the answer is "yes" they can make a Super-Bowl run. With this defense they could win just like the Giants did twice against the 18-0 and 16-2 Pats, with great defense and an offense that plays well at the right time. Remember that the Giants beat the undefeated "Greatest Team of All-Time" Patriots 16-13. It wasn't a great offensive performance by Eli Manning. It was a couple of key plays and consistent pressure right in Tom Brady's face by Michael Strahan and Justin Tuck.

Peyton doesn't even have to be great. He has to have a couple of good games in the playoffs. That's all.

And it all comes down to the OL. Peyton can do nothing without superior OL play. With it they could win a championship.

[dogfish]

Im willing to guarantee brock wins a ring aslong as this team stays in tack.

and you can take that to the bank, folks. . . :lol: :lol:

[BroncoWave]

I like the cut of this new guy's jib. He's a real straight shooter.

[Joel]

In fact, much as I liked Kuper (at least as a pass blocker,) Vasquez was a huge upgrade, just as Clady was worlds better than Clark even after a season-ending injury. That's the essential difference between our 2012-13 lines and the 2014 version; the sole PRACTICAL difference was that the SB beatdown exposed all the flaws I'd been begging to see corrected.


I don't know why this is so mysterious to some people. Since 2012 we've had a "Tale of Two Peytons."

Starting in 2012 people noticed back in the pre-season that Peyton's arm wasn't remotely as good as it was before his 4 neck surgeries. He was throwing "wobblers." He was intercepted 3 times in the first half of the Falcons game in week two and people were saying he was "washed up."

Well, his arm didn't get stronger since then. He made some adjustments. He had to step into every throw more and rely on his arm strength less. A lot less. The OL started pass-blocking better. The receivers started running shorter routes, including utilizing D.T. more in the bubble-screens. Quick opening plays, getting to the line and snapping the ball quicker to put more pressure on the defense and tire them out, etc.

The Broncos did everything they possibly could to help Peyton. The OL was generally good in 2012 and 2013.

I was with you till RIGHT there: The line wasn't generally good then nor even before; the run blocking had nonexistent surge and often let mutliple defenders hit our RBs almost at the handoff, while the pass protection was also terrible, only made to LOOK good because Mannings presnap reads and quick release covered for it. Seattle didn't discover some obscure vulnerability in the SB; any DC who'd skimmed half my 2013 posts would've attacked our one-dimensional offense the same way. Good grief, Clark gave up strip-sacks in THREE STRAIGHT GAMES midseason, yet everyone from Fox to the fans kept praising him.

Just because McGahee led the NFL in yards AFTER CONTACT in 2011 (and RETIRED after one more season) doesn't mean the line did a bang up job giving us the leagues highest rushing total. Just because Manning usually saw pass rushes coming in 2012-13 and hit a hot read where he saw there'd be no defenders doesn't mean the line did a bang up job giving us the leagues lowest sack totals. Mainly, the line did a bang up job getting our RBs banged up so badly THIRD STRING was the best we had left by the end of our only 2012 playoff game (and that was after a bye.)

Give Manning time to set his feet, and run support reliable enough defenses don't LAUGH at our play action game, and he's still plenty good enough to do the job. Deny ANY QB that and watch "him" fail. There's a reason 3/5 starting linemen were GONE the moment two coaches with a long consistent record of good offensive lines came to town. Throw Oz out there before they've had time to fix those many gaping holes and you can expect to see the next David Carr.

[Simple Jaded]

I like the cut of this new guy's jib. He's a real straight shooter.

**** tact and subtlety, I always say.

[DenBronx]

Wow Tned....just wow.

Lol, nice selective quoting. Since I'm on my mobile phone, had to go check if I had an auto correct or other problem.


Hahaha good to see you around Tned.

[Yashahla17]

I like Brock and think he'll be a good quarterback but he's got to actually have to start meaningful form me to go out on that limb.

Understandable. I just have a great feeling about this kid. His progression from ASU to the pros these last few years of sitting developing year to year looks to me like the only thing he needs now is the keys to get live action.

[Yashahla17]

This is factually wrong, this offense has been run by every kind of QB in the league, including QB's that are neither big armed nor mobile.

It's no wonder Joe flacco had his best year in kubiak offense. But sure others like Matt shaub can look good in kubiak offense. But I like the look of flacco in this offense. Boats well for big Brock

[Cugel]

In fact, much as I liked Kuper (at least as a pass blocker,) Vasquez was a huge upgrade, just as Clady was worlds better than Clark even after a season-ending injury. That's the essential difference between our 2012-13 lines and the 2014 version; the sole PRACTICAL difference was that the SB beatdown exposed all the flaws I'd been begging to see corrected.

I was with you till RIGHT there: The line wasn't generally good then nor even before; the run blocking had nonexistent surge and often let mutliple defenders hit our RBs almost at the handoff, while the pass protection was also terrible, only made to LOOK good because Mannings presnap reads and quick release covered for it. Seattle didn't discover some obscure vulnerability in the SB; any DC who'd skimmed half my 2013 posts would've attacked our one-dimensional offense the same way. Good grief, Clark gave up strip-sacks in THREE STRAIGHT GAMES midseason, yet everyone from Fox to the fans kept praising him.

Just because McGahee led the NFL in yards AFTER CONTACT in 2011 (and RETIRED after one more season) doesn't mean the line did a bang up job giving us the leagues highest rushing total. Just because Manning usually saw pass rushes coming in 2012-13 and hit a hot read where he saw there'd be no defenders doesn't mean the line did a bang up job giving us the leagues lowest sack totals. Mainly, the line did a bang up job getting our RBs banged up so badly THIRD STRING was the best we had left by the end of our only 2012 playoff game (and that was after a bye.)

Give Manning time to set his feet, and run support reliable enough defenses don't LAUGH at our play action game, and he's still plenty good enough to do the job. Deny ANY QB that and watch "him" fail. There's a reason 3/5 starting linemen were GONE the moment two coaches with a long consistent record of good offensive lines came to town. Throw Oz out there before they've had time to fix those many gaping holes and you can expect to see the next David Carr.

Well, admittedly the OL wasn't great, especially at run-blocking. But, Ryan Clady in 2012 and even in 2014 was playing better than anybody on this OL has played this year. Vasquez seems to be more of a mauler who doesn't really fit the ZBS all that well, but he was their best OL in 2013 and 2014 - really good. Nobody can say that any of the OL this season are "pretty good."

Orlando Franklin played poorly in the SB, but he played generally pretty well during that season. He certainly was better than Ryan Harris on his best day, or, God help us, Michael Schofield, who doesn't seem to know how to pass-block at all.

Mathis is the best of them, and he's managed to go from terrible to mediocre. He's certainly not playing remotely at a Pro-Bowl level. Perhaps he has the potential to get better, although at 34 his upside is probably somewhat limited.

The rest are playing worse than anybody from the last 3 years, other than Chris Clark or Michael Schofield at RT last year.

But, even Chris Clark played fairly well at LT in place of the injured Clady in 2013. He wasn't great, but he wasn't terrible that year.

They all played well enough for the Broncos to get to the SB. Can anybody say this OL is playing well enough for the Broncos to get to the SB, no matter how good the defense is?

I'd say "no."

Peyton cannot compensate for this crappy OL. Not in this current offense. They keep saying that the OL is "getting better" but I don't see much improvement at all. It looks like hot garbage, with Peyton and the WRs making some adjustments to get the ball out of Peyton's hands even quicker than in previous seasons.

But, this effort comes at a price. When Peyton is forced to make quicker and quicker decisions, he makes unforced errors. That leads to picks and pick-6's.

And then people wonder "what is wrong with Peyton? Did you see that pick? He's washed up!"

Well, there are about 20 QBs in the NFL who would look "washed up" with this OL. I'm not sure even a Qb with Russell Wilson's mobility would be any good behind this OL.

[MOtorboat]

Understandable. I just have a great feeling about this kid. His progression from ASU to the pros these last few years of sitting developing year to year looks to me like the only thing he needs now is the keys to get live action.

What progression?

Serious, not facetious question. He started one season, was decent, not great and is now in his fourth season sitting the bench. What progression are you talking about?

Because he led a couple touchdown drives against guys who don't play on Sunday's two months ago?

Look, I like him as a prospect, even if it's as a 25-year-old taking the reins next year. But, he ain't taking over this year. Nor is he a better option. This Peyton Manning, the one who has to have good protection and moves a little less than he did, is still better than all but about six guys on planet Earth.

[Northman]

It's no wonder Joe flacco had his best year in kubiak offense. But sure others like Matt shaub can look good in kubiak offense. But I like the look of flacco in this offense. Boats well for big Brock

Im there with you, i think Brock is going to shine in this offense but as of now we are still 4-0 under Manning. So until we go on a losing streak or he gets injured Brock will just have to wait. But im excited to see how he runs this offense going forward.

[Cugel]

Im there with you, i think Brock is going to shine in this offense but as of now we are still 4-0 under Manning. So until we go on a losing streak or he gets injured Brock will just have to wait. But im excited to see how he runs this offense going forward.

Fans are just going to have to get used to some brutal facts:

1. You are not going to see Brock this season. At all - unless Peyton is injured and can't play. And considering that he played last year for 4 games plus the playoffs with a torn thigh muscle where he couldn't really push off, even if he's hurt we're probably not going to know it. He's going out there regardless.

2. The Broncos talk a lot about how much they love Brock. But, in the NFL "money talks and bull-shit walks."

Did they re-sign Brock Osweiler to a long-term contract or is he a FA at the end of this season?

If John Elway really thought he had another Russell Wilson in Brock why exactly are they paying Peyton Manning $15 million this year? Why not say "thanks for the memories Peyton!" and start Brock this season when they're only paying him $1 million? They could then use the $15 million to re-sign Von Miller a year early, and Malik Jackson, and Aquib Talib, and DeMarcus Ware and anybody else they will need to re-sign next season.

In short, the Broncos COULD have done exactly what the Seahawks did when they were paying Russell Wilson less than $1 M per season. They re-signed Earl Thomas and Richard Sherman and Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril, and Bobby Wagner and Kam Chancellor and Marshawn Lynch to long term deals.

The Seahawks haven't lost a single core player to FA. Not one. The Broncos could have done the same thing - except that they DON'T think that Brock is anything more than "just a guy."

He's got some nice skills. They might re-sign him next season and give him the starting job - IF Peyton doesn't come back to play out his contract. But, they are not committed to him long term - because they do NOT believe he's another Russell Wilson who can take this team to SBs.

He might be their best option - but only IF Peyton can't play any more. Otherwise he's a backup until Peyton retires.

And if you don't believe that, then WHY are the Broncos paying Peyton $15 million this season? The cap economics just makes too much sense for them to cut Peyton and start Brock at $1 M if they really believed they had something special in him - i.e. another Russell Wilson who could lead them to the SB.

Because you can bet that if this defense continues to play great - EVERBODY on that defense is going to want to be paid. $$$$ Malik Jackson is going to want $8-10 M a year and there's not going to be enough money for everybody.

They are going to lose players next year because they couldn't afford to lock them up THIS year - which they could do if they weren't paying Peyton Manning $15 M. The ONLY reason they do that is that they think Peyton gives them the best chance to win the SB. And is 39 year old Peyton playing great? Is he really worth $15 million this season?